WT: Police say Taylor did not fire gun

[bubba9497]

Police say Taylor did not fire gun
By Jody Foldesy
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions/print.php?StoryID=20050607-120506-9397r

Miami police confirmed yesterday that Washington Redskins safety Sean Taylor fired no shots in Wednesday night's incident in southern Dade County, a crucial fact given Florida's stiff mandatory minimum sentences for gun crimes.

Meanwhile, two sources familiar with the investigation said there is a second phase of the case in which Taylor is the apparent victim. In the first phase, according to police, Taylor pointed a gun at two victims and physically assaulted one. Subsequently, sources said, there was a retaliation in which shots were fired at Taylor.

Detective Mary Walters of the Miami-Dade County Police Department, who confirmed Taylor did not fire his gun, declined comment on the second phase of the case. It was unclear when police might release information in connection to the shooting.

The two pieces of information uncovered yesterday helped clear up some of the uncertainties that lingered in the wake of Taylor's arrest Saturday night on two counts of aggravated assault with a firearm, a third-degree felony, and one count of simple battery, a first-degree misdemeanor.

Police on Friday said they were searching for Taylor in connection with a "shooting," but a press release obtained Sunday said no shots were fired. The existence of a second phase of the case could explain the discrepancy.

After posting bond Saturday night, Taylor was released. He is scheduled to be arraigned June 24, five days after the Redskins conclude minicamp, the final element of their offseason workout program.

Coach Joe Gibbs said Taylor has been excused for the remainder of the workout program. The move was somewhat superficial, considering Taylor hadn't shown up for the program or even talked to Gibbs this offseason, but the team seemingly wanted to make clear that Taylor has no Redskins commitments for the foreseeable future.

"As of today, Sean is excused from the participating in the remainder of the club's voluntary offseason workout program and the upcoming mandatory minicamp beginning on June 17," Gibbs said in a statement. "As an organization, the Redskins believe that it is in Sean's best interest to focus on his personal and legal issues at this time."

Gibbs directed any further inquiries to the NFL, which has a personal-conduct policy to discipline players for crimes.

The fact Taylor didn't fire any shots could be crucial because of Florida's "10-20-Life" law. By not discharging the weapon, Taylor could face a mandatory minimum sentence of just three years rather than 20.

The "10-20-Life" law was instituted in 1999 as part of Gov. Jeb Bush's effort to get tough on crime. The law set minimum sentences of 10 years if a gun is present when certain crimes are committed, 20 years if the gun is fired and 25 years to life if someone is shot.

Taylor is subject to the "10" level, but aggravated assault is one of three crimes that qualifies for just a three-year minimum sentence. The loophole closes at the "20" level, meaning he could have faced 17 more years in jail if he had fired the gun, even if the shots went nowhere near the victims.

Mandatory minimum laws are fairly common across the country and often controversial. "10-20-Life," for example, appears to have deterred crime, but state attorney Barry Krischer said the 10-year penalty can be "Draconian," according to the Palm Beach Post.

The state attorney's office was not able to confirm whether "10-20-Life" would be applied in Taylor's case. A spokesman said that would be left up to the prosecuting attorney.

The incident occurred Wednesday evening in southern Dade County when Taylor, Charles Elwood Caughman and several other individuals drove up to the two victims and accused them of stealing a pair of all-terrain vehicles. Taylor pointed the gun at the victims. The group drove off and returned about 10 minutes later, at which point Taylor punched one of the victims, and Caughman, wielding a baseball bat, chased the other.

Caughman was arrested later that night. Taylor was at large until Saturday night, when he turned himself in, accompanied by Coral Gables attorney Fred Moldovan.

[SkinsHokieFan]

As Sean Taylor's world turns....

[bubba9497]

there is still more to this that hasn't come out yet....

[SkinsHokieFan]

Definitley Bubba. Waiting for more facts before I hang him, or get on my knees and start to worship him again.

Hopefully this will just end up being something blown out of proportion. Still a headcase though

[Spaceman Spiff]

See ya in three years, Sean.

[Ax]

Yeah, no doubt that Psycho has issues.

But I am curious about WHO said he pointed a gun at anybody. Not saying he didn't do it, but it is possible that the "he pointed a gun at us" is a BS story, made up by the, more than likely, "thugs" that DID apparently fire shots that night.

Two things are certain though,

1. We need more details.

2. Psycho needs to fix his elevator. It's not stopping at all floors.

[The Showstopper]

hes gonna find a way to get out of this, but i dont think he should, maybe this will straighten him out

[tr1]

Originally posted by bubba9497
there is still more to this that hasn't come out yet....

Let's see, he had a gun, pointed it at people, left the scene, came back, and got into a fight...

I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and taking matters into his own hands...

[Art]

Originally posted by tr1


Let's see, he had a gun, pointed it at people, left the scene, came back, and got into a fight...

I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and taking matters into his own hands...

Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

[kappaluvacee]

This is the type of stuff that led me to wait until more facts came out. Still no doubt about it, Sean has to mature, but he isn't looking as much like the gun yielding thug the media was painting him up to be. They had Sean looking like the Miami-Dade Jesse James.

[smsmith40]

Art, You need to get out of the schoolyard more.

[Art]

Originally posted by smsmith40
Art, You need to get out of the schoolyard more.

And you need to go in more :).

Mindset my man and awareness that there are some situations in which men simply agree to step outside and settle things. Now, that may not be at all what happened here. This could be anything from Taylor being a thug to something far more reasonable and, heck, even admirable.

I think we'll generally know what this is when we see more of it revealed.

[Prosperity]

3 years for pointing a gun? What crazy us laws do they have in Florida? My guess is he will probably serve no jail time. Since he will probably have a great lawyer.

[budski]

Art,
Excuse me
Waving a gun around is not dealing with a situation "like a man".
Unless hes in your house.

[mark327]

Originally posted by tr1




I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and taking matters into his own hands...

just my 2 cents here , but as explained by another member of extreme on another of the many threads on this subject. i could see why someone would not have called the police ,because all they do is take a police report for stolen ATV's in FL. basicly if one is stolen then you need to find it yourself :( they are stolen everyday and so often the police can't keep up with it.

However that does not give ST the right to be waving a gun at the people he thought stole them .
the kid has problems and needs help :( i just hope whether or not ST remains a Redskin after all of this is settled that he gets the help he needs . its seems that todays althletes just don't get it , once you sign that big muti-million dollar contract your under the spotlight for all the world to see .

i'm disapointed that all this stuff is happening with our beloved redskins ,but JG and the Skins will prevail that's something i truely believe :point2sky HTTR

[Synergist]

3 years, he's done..

[TODD]

Originally posted by Spaceman Spiff
See ya in three years, Sean.

Nope. I'll tell ya that Jamal Lewis' 2-3 month sentence cocaine trafficking was much lower than the minimum sentence. Money, power, recognition talks.

[nace14]

i hope the judge sentences him to never be allowed to the state of florida again.

[TODD]

Originally posted by Liberty
3 years for pointing a gun? What crazy us laws do they have in Florida? My guess is he will probably serve no jail time. Since he will probably have a great lawyer.

I agree with both points. The law is harsh and though it isn't fair, Sean Taylor will come out above the law just like all of the other high-profile NFLers.

[BIGGS_DADDY]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :). Although I think he makes a little to much money to handle these situations himself. I do agree with the fact that this is a situation best handled by showing some muscle.

I just think it probably would have been in Seans best FINANCIAL interest, to have a couple of his very large friends handle this one for him.

[G-Prime]

I don't even know what to make of this.. Why the hell does he have a gun in the first place? Screw it I don't even care anymore.

[budski]

Todd,
Your right money talks, Taylor is no different than the rest of the people with money involved with crime. Its not the law he needs to fear its the NFL and the wording in his contract.

[BIGGS_DADDY]

Originally posted by TODD


Nope. I'll tell ya that Jamal Lewis' 2-3 month sentence cocaine trafficking was much lower than the minimum sentence. Money, power, recognition talks. It also should be noted that, there was hard evidence against Jamal Lewis in the form of a wire tap. The evidence against Taylor (so far) is hear say. At least as far as the gun is concerned.

[BlitzFiftySix]

Originally posted by The Showstopper
hes gonna find a way to get out of this, but i dont think he should, maybe this will straighten him out

I sure hope so. I think that alot of us have had one "scared straight" moment young men. I had about 3 or 4. Being as hard headed as I was unfortunately that was necessary for the facts to sink in.

I'm hoping that he is seriously concerned about the outcome of this case and the REAL consequences that he could wind up facing.

I'd like to see a more mature and focused professional athlete in 2006. Maybe Coach Gibbs could lead him into a few post practice bible classes following this one.

[G-Prime]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).


Gotta disagree with you here Art, there is nothing manly about waving a gun around. Manly would be, something like, some guy came up and slapped his girlfriend and he pummelled him into the ground or something. Not trying to be a thug(In florida of all places) by waving your gun in someone's face.

[B&GPride44]

First off O.J. killed people and he walked...That doesn't bode well for a fair and just legal system...Money and Power Talk and BS walks. Also did anyone happen to catch the interview Wally Bruckner did with Phil Daniels last night on the 11 pm news? It was great. Daniels basically said as far as he was concerned the team didn't need someone like that and when on to further say that he is ruining his career as well as his life. It was great. I agreed with everything Daniels said!

[twa]

I agree with Art that confronting them and trying to recover or make sure the ATV's did not dissapear was not out of line.
However if he was waving a gun around he is dumb as a rock. If you come to someones property brandishing a weapon you stand a decent chance of getting shot.
You not only display a lack of common sense,but also a disreguard for the laws.

[DCMONEY]

In life sometimes you have to pick and choose your battles. Taylor stands to lose more than the average joe. I mean the fact that he left and came back indicates that he had a little time to think about the matter. He shoulda just called the police. I personally know that sometimes you feel you have to stand up for your rights when you're violated but you have to be damn sure the person you're attacking is the one you violated you. And even then sometimes it seems that the person who's commiting the crime, has more rights than the victim. If Taylor was sure though of who stole from him, he shoulda just called the police. I know its easier said than done. I can remember a case in this area where a man's alarm goes off and he comes out to see his truck being stolen. He actually fires at the criminals and I think he kills one. Well the victim got locked up. Go figure. Its a touch and go situation when you're violated.

[TODD]

Originally posted by BIGGS_DADDY
It also should be noted that, there was hard evidence against Jamal Lewis in the form of a wire tap. The evidence against Taylor (so far) is hear say. At least as far as the gun is concerned.

I'm not in any way condoning pointing a gun at someone over an ATV, but, I think legally the crime of cocaine trafficking is punished more harshly than felony aggravated assault (Taylor's likely charge).

I'm far from a lawyer, but my sense tells me that if Jamal Lewis can plea bargain into two months in jail at his convenience for trafficking cocaine, ST's jail time will be minimum if any at all and his plea bargain will make all of us forget this even happened.

[Art]

Originally posted by budski
Art,
Excuse me
Waving a gun around is not dealing with a situation "like a man".
Unless hes in your house.

Well, Budski, perhaps the difference between you and I is you appear to know the exact details of this case and I, admittedly do not. I do not know what led to Taylor doing what it is, now, reported he did. I do not even know if he did that AT ALL.

But, let me just postulate for a moment.

Say Taylor was hanging with his crew. Say he decided he had to go and gave his boys a quick pound and headed out. Say some other guys there saw him leaving and thought they'd do something to him. Rob him. Beat him. Whatever. Say they followed him to the parking lot and he saw them but before anything could happen to anyone, he quickly pulled out his gun, pistol whipped one of the guys and said, "Look, I don't need this trouble."

Say he held his gun on the two guys while he got in his car and left and as he left, the guys fired shots at him. Say Taylor knew Gibbs and the team would be pissed, so he just hoped -- as many young people do -- the trouble would just go away so he need not report anything. Just get away. Get safe.

I have NO idea if any of the above happened, but, neither do you. What if it did. I agree with you there are many situations in which the use of a gun on Taylor's part would not be the act of a man being a man. I disagree with you that the use of a gun in any way precludes the same.

[TODD]

Originally posted by B&GPride44
First off O.J. killed people and he walked...That doesn't bode well for a fair and just legal system...

I doubt Taylor will plead 'not guilty' in hopes for a lenient plea bargain.

[Art]

Originally posted by BIGGS_DADDY
Although I think he makes a little to much money to handle these situations himself. I do agree with the fact that this is a situation best handled by showing some muscle.

I just think it probably would have been in Seans best FINANCIAL interest, to have a couple of his very large friends handle this one for him.

I couldn't agree MORE.

With the amount of money on the line here, you have to process the risks to your financial well-being at some point :).

[Art]

Originally posted by Gothtimus
I don't even know what to make of this.. Why the hell does he have a gun in the first place? Screw it I don't even care anymore.

Because it's totally legal to own a gun, and, it's somewhat likely normal in many circles.

[UK Skins]

This may be completely naive but if it is legal to own a gun "over there" is is not therefore legal to use it? Or is it just for show?

[Art]

Originally posted by twa
I agree with Art that confronting them and trying to recover or make sure the ATV's did not dissapear was not out of line.
However if he was waving a gun around he is dumb as a rock. If you come to someones property brandishing a weapon you stand a decent chance of getting shot.
You not only display a lack of common sense,but also a disreguard for the laws.

Let's just say we don't know the complete circumstances about why the gun may have been brandished if such a thing is even true. It may be. May not. But, I've told this story before. When I was a young lad the bully stole my bike. What did I do?

I went home crying to my dad.

I was bigger and stronger than the bully, but, let him push me around. The bully's family were all criminals even then -- all but the bully now in jail, two for murder I believe. So, what did my dad do? He grabbed me by the ear, twisted it, and walked me a half mile around the block, in front of everyone while I was crying, to the bully's house. Up to the front door. And he proceeded to walk in, get my bike back and tell the father of the boy, who could have kicked my dad's *****, that this was going to stop.

And we walked back home.

The moral my dad taught me was it's real easy to handle things like a man and not let people push you around. If Taylor confronted people he KNEW to have taken his property, I'm going to give him a wide bit of room to operate in such a confrontation.

Heck, I might even like that he did it :).

[nace14]

Originally posted by UK Skins
This may be completely naive but if it is legal to own a gun "over there" is is not therefore legal to use it? Or is it just for show?

basically it comes down to the fact that its a right to own a gun and to use it for protection/self-defense. you can't just wield it like the cowboys use to do. it all started because of that revolutionary war thing when the red coats wouldn't let us own guns.

[BIGGS_DADDY]

Originally posted by TODD


I'm not in any way condoning pointing a gun at someone over an ATV, but, I think legally the crime of cocaine trafficking is punished more harshly than felony aggravated assault (Taylor's likely charge).

I'm far from a lawyer, but my sense tells me that if Jamal Lewis can plea bargain into two months in jail at his convenience for trafficking cocaine, ST's jail time will be minimum if any at all and his plea bargain will make all of us forget this even happened. And I agree. Since the evidence against Taylor is weaker than the evidence against Lewis.

[TheGreek1973]

Well I will tell you this story stinks by the minute. Taylor has his ATVs stollen, he waves a gun, then goes back and punches the guy out, then the guy fires his gun or something like that. What a bunch of BS. If the police findout that indeed his property was stolen, and if they confirm indeed that the thives fired a shot, what case do they have against Taylor? Nothing IMO. I will wait for more facts because this story changes by the minute.

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

A man uses his fists, a little coward b*tch hides behind a weapon.

[Clutch03]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


A man uses his fists, a little coward b*tch hides behind a weapon.

What if the other man has a gun ... who's the b*tch then?

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Originally posted by Clutch03


What if the other man has a gun ... who's the b*tch then?

Then they're both little coward b*tches.

[UK Skins]

Thanks Nace, I appreciate the sensible answer.

It will be interesting to see what context Taylor was carrying his in that case!

[Clutch03]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


Then they're both little coward b*tches.


Ha ha ha ha ... love your reasoning too bad it doesn't work in the real world.

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Originally posted by Clutch03



Ha ha ha ha ... love your reasoning too bad it doesn't work in the real world.

How does it not work in the real world? I don't carry a gun. I've never had a gun pulled on me. The key is NOT BEING IN THAT SITUATION. However, I was responding to Art's incredibly naive post about "being a man". A gun doesn't make you a man, BTW. You don't agree?

[twa]

Originally posted by UK Skins
This may be completely naive but if it is legal to own a gun "over there" is is not therefore legal to use it? Or is it just for show?

I believe they have similar laws as Texas,Hanguns cannot be carried unless you have a permitt.
I know here they actually strengthened the punishment once they allowed you to legaly carry and no you are VERY restricted on the use of it......Hell I no longer carry one since they passed these laws.

[Bang]

As far as the question of "why does he own a gun" and"why do so many athletes get in trouble for having guns"...
I saw a report on ESPN Outside the Lines once about this.
Many of these guys carry a gun because they are very VERY high profile, and their exploits on the field stir a lot of passions in people, good and bad.
One drunken jerk in a bar that recognizes a player and remembers that player cost him a thousand dollars on a bet might not be civilized enough to let it go by.
Some people base their lives on what these athletes do,, some gamble away their entire future on sports.
When the potential that someone with a beef that big could be waiting for you anywhere is presented, the logical decision is to get something to protect yourself.


As to Taylor, I think much of it has to do with the thug mentality that pervades our youth, and while i agree with Art that there are times a little muscle should be used, when you're in a position like taylor, you have to keep out of that sort of thing.
Odds are by the end of the week this charge will be whittled down to Taylor having yelled "Gun!" in a semi threatening manner. and he'll get his slap on his wrist and HOPEFULLY wise up and show up for work.

~Bang

[red zone]

Without quoting Art's every post, I have to say Art, I couldn't agree more.

I also think it will be awfully difficult to prove Sean pointed a gun at anyone. There is a reason why the gun needs to be "smoking" in order to be a key piece of evidence.

This story has more holes than a wiffle ball. He pointed a gun at someone. Got shot at. Didn't fire back. Returned with a friend and a ball bat? Hmmmm, that dog don't hunt a lick.

Mike Sellers is dead on when he says Sean needs to find a better class of folks to hang with.

[Clutch03]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


How does it not work in the real world? I don't carry a gun. I've never had a gun pulled on me. The key is NOT BEING IN THAT SITUATION. However, I was responding to Art's incredibly naive post about "being a man". A gun doesn't make you a man, BTW. You don't agree?


I agree with you ... like I said I enjoyed your reasoning. Your right a gun does not make you a man. I don't own a gun nor have I ever fired a gun. I have had a gun pointed at me on more than one occasion and its the most helpless feeling in the world.
Maybe Taylor has been in a situation where somebody pulled one on him and he didn't want it to happen again ... I don't know.

It just seems pretty general to say a guy is b*tch for having a gun. Maybe that man doesn't want to be a victim.

[budski]

You dont need to carry a gun around if you hang around the right people and places.

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Originally posted by Clutch03



I agree with you ... like I said I enjoyed your reasoning. Your right a gun does not make you a man. I don't own a gun nor have I ever fired a gun. I have had a gun pointed at me on more than one occasion and its the most helpless feeling in the world.
Maybe Taylor has been in a situation where somebody pulled one on him and he didn't want it to happen again ... I don't know.

It just seems pretty general to say a guy is b*tch for having a gun. Maybe that man doesn't want to be a victim.

I agree w/ you, however, it's hard to view Taylor as a "victim" when he sought out this man, and took a gun w/ him. It wasn't like he had a gun randomly pulled on him by some stranger on the street. He went looking for this man. He took a gun w/ him, knowing that he was looking for this man. No good can come of that situation no matter how you look at it.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by Clutch03



I agree with you ... like I said I enjoyed your reasoning. Your right a gun does not make you a man. I don't own a gun nor have I ever fired a gun. I have had a gun pointed at me on more than one occasion and its the most helpless feeling in the world.
Maybe Taylor has been in a situation where somebody pulled one on him and he didn't want it to happen again ... I don't know.

It just seems pretty general to say a guy is b*tch for having a gun. Maybe that man doesn't want to be a victim.

As more of the story comes it out it is obvious that Taylor was more of a victim than an assailant. HE made a poor choice for bing in that situation, but really the punishments that people think he ought to get are just outlandish. This doesn't warrant jail time or even a suspension. Definitely not 3 years and a lost career.

[Clutch03]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


I agree w/ you, however, it's hard to view Taylor as a "victim" when he sought out this man, and took a gun w/ him. It wasn't like he had a gun randomly pulled on him by some stranger on the street. He went looking for this man. He took a gun w/ him, knowing that he was looking for this man. No good can come of that situation no matter how you look at it.

Yea I'm not trying to make Taylor a poster child or anything because he was wrong. But as more of this story comes out it does sound like he wised up a little bit. He left the scene without firing his gun ... and he came back and fought like a man (I'm using your logic here) :laugh: So he's a young guy that made a mistake ... I've been there.

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Originally posted by Liberty


As more of the story comes it out it is obvious that Taylor was more of a victim than an assailant. HE made a poor choice for bing in that situation, but really the punishments that people think he ought to get are just outlandish. This doesn't warrant jail time or even a suspension. Definitely not 3 years and a lost career.

A "victim"???? Jesus, you can really try to spin this any way you want BUT:

1) Taylor went looking for this man. He took a gun w/ him. (why take a gun if you don't intend to use it?)

2) He pulled the gun out. (why have the gun w/ you or pull it out if you don't intend to use it?)

3) HE WENT BACK AND PUNCHED THE GUY. (If somebody is attacking you w/ a gun or something else that threatens your life, do you go back to the scene and punch somebody while your buddy threatens people w/ a bat?)

Jesus, everybody in this situation is guilty, and the way some of you defend this guy is laughable.

[Henry]

Uh oh. Art's having a slow day at work. God help us all. :)

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

Furthermore, I reiterate, EVERYONE INVOLVED IS GUILTY! This is the type of situation where some innocent bystander or god forbid a child gets caught in the crossfire. This is the type of sh*t that is making our streets unsafe. To defend this type of action in any way is PATHETIC, IMO.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


A "victim"???? Jesus, you can really try to spin this any way you want BUT:

1) Taylor went looking for this man. He took a gun w/ him. (why take a gun if you don't intend to use it?)



Well he didn't use it did he?



2) He pulled the gun out. (why have the gun w/ you or pull it out if you don't intend to use it?)


Well he didn't use it did he?



3) HE WENT BACK AND PUNCHED THE GUY. (If somebody is attacking you w/ a gun or something else that threatens your life, do you go back to the scene and punch somebody while your buddy threatens people w/ a bat?)


We don't know the details of this, but it was a fight BIG F'N DEAL, people don't go to jail for 3 years for punching a guy once without having him have some sort of serious injury. Well atleast not in a sane society, Florida is weird that way.



Jesus, everybody in this situation is guilty, and the way some of you defend this guy is laughable.

yes he is guilty of somethings, but overall he was more of a victim, the others instigated the incident AND used more force.

[ntotoro]

Originally posted by Liberty


As more of the story comes it out it is obvious that Taylor was more of a victim than an assailant. HE made a poor choice for bing in that situation, but really the punishments that people think he ought to get are just outlandish. This doesn't warrant jail time or even a suspension. Definitely not 3 years and a lost career.

There could be two separate charges here, though. If he waved the gun first, left, returned and got shot at, then both parties are liable for different things.

He'd be charged for waving the gun because it wouldn't have been in self-defense (he'd constantly be asked why he waved it instead of shooting if his life was truly in danger), then whooping up on the one dude. The other guy would be charged with shooting at Taylor when he returned, unless Taylor did attack him and discharging the weapon was in self-defense.

It'll all come out in the wash eventually, but the bottom line is it's obvious he's better-off here than down there. No one can defend his position on avoiding any voluntary workouts any longer. I also think it's obvious, given all his boasting, that his agent cares more about dollars and cents than a player's well-being.

Nick

[BiGdiCeBuDdHa]

When some thug robs a 7-11 clerk at gunpoint, even if he doesn't shoot the guy, it's still USING A GUN to rob a 7-11 isn't it? It's a terror tactic.

[Joe Sick]

If he KNEW who stole his stuff, why not just call the cops? This crap about being a man because you can point a gun at someone is pathetic.

Didn't Florida just enact the "shoot first" law? He's lucky the other guys weren't packing. That could be the end of his life, forget his career.

Just goes to show that guns don't solve problems. ;)

[skinstzar]

Originally posted by TODD


I doubt Taylor will plead 'not guilty' in hopes for a lenient plea bargain.



Let me shed some light on some legal terminology for you. If Sean Taylor pleads not guilty then he is claiming no guilt on any count. Plea Bargaining means you admit a degree of guilt, and you must also provide valuable information to assist the prosecution in some aspect. This information could be directly related to the case at hand or another pending investigation. Lets not compare ST's situation to Jamal Lewis's. It is really apple and oranges. ST's situation is much like Ray Lewis's. ST will most likely be acquited on all charges. We have already seen a change in the severity of his actions. Sean has hired a great lawyer with virtually a flawless record. His lawyer will question the character of the accusers and any witnesses. If ST did not fire the gun then there will be very little physical evidence in this case. Without physical evidence, a conviction in any case is virtually impossible. My best guess is that his attorney will file a motion for dismissal at his arraignment. I wouldn't be suprised if it is strongly concidered if not granted. If the case goes to trial it will be short and sweet and ST will walk away with nothing.

[herrmag]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

The next time someone steals something from me, I'm putting on my soccer cleats and stomping a mudhole in their @ss! :laugh:

[Doozinbrah]

Originally posted by Art


Well, Budski, perhaps the difference between you and I is you appear to know the exact details of this case and I, admittedly do not. I do not know what led to Taylor doing what it is, now, reported he did. I do not even know if he did that AT ALL.

But, let me just postulate for a moment.

Say Taylor was hanging with his crew. Say he decided he had to go and gave his boys a quick pound and headed out. Say some other guys there saw him leaving and thought they'd do something to him. Rob him. Beat him. Whatever. Say they followed him to the parking lot and he saw them but before anything could happen to anyone, he quickly pulled out his gun, pistol whipped one of the guys and said, "Look, I don't need this trouble."

Say he held his gun on the two guys while he got in his car and left and as he left, the guys fired shots at him. Say Taylor knew Gibbs and the team would be pissed, so he just hoped -- as many young people do -- the trouble would just go away so he need not report anything. Just get away. Get safe.

I have NO idea if any of the above happened, but, neither do you. What if it did. I agree with you there are many situations in which the use of a gun on Taylor's part would not be the act of a man being a man. I disagree with you that the use of a gun in any way precludes the same.

Art have you been talking to Andyman in private?:laugh:

[More Complete]

Originally posted by B&GPride44
... did anyone happen to catch the interview Wally Bruckner did with Phil Daniels last night on the 11 pm news? It was great. Daniels basically said as far as he was concerned the team didn't need someone like that and when on to further say that he is ruining his career as well as his life. It was great. I agreed with everything Daniels said!

I agree also. It nice to see someone on the team has some sense. The only thing I worry about is if and/or when ST comes back, how will this effect the locker room? :whoknows:

My guess is, the real skins will forgive, but not forget. Lets hope he turns this around, otherwise, three strikes, you're out!

[SonnyRules]

Originally posted by skinstzar
Lets not compare ST's situation to Jamal Lewis's. It is really apple and oranges. ST's situation is much like Ray Lewis's. ST will most likely be acquited on all charges. .

Not that it means much, but Ray Lewis actually did plea to a lesser charge and was the only one of the bunch to be convicted.

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by Art


And you need to go in more :).

Mindset my man and awareness that there are some situations in which men simply agree to step outside and settle things. Now, that may not be at all what happened here. This could be anything from Taylor being a thug to something far more reasonable and, heck, even admirable.

I think we'll generally know what this is when we see more of it revealed.

:doh: Art, are you mad, man! What is this, the freakin' Wild West? A "man" knows how to avoid confrontation, not seek it. There is nothing "admirable" about his behavior regardless of the outcome.

H

[RDSKNFN_48]

Originally posted by Art


And you need to go in more :).

Mindset my man and awareness that there are some situations in which men simply agree to step outside and settle things. Now, that may not be at all what happened here. This could be anything from Taylor being a thug to something far more reasonable and, heck, even admirable.

I think we'll generally know what this is when we see more of it revealed.


Dosn't matter what he did, he still hasn't returned Gibbs calls. :puke:

[halter91]

His lawyer will question the character of the accusers and any witnesses.

I agree 100%. I'm sure the "victims" are innocent. We don't know the facts and all the details about the victims. But I will tell you, if someone stole 2 of my ATV's, I would have someones head. But being in ST's situation, he has to relize that is could get in a lot of trouble. He could have paid someone to do the bullying. :2cents:

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by RDSKNFN_48



Dosn't matter what he did, he still hasn't returned Gibbs calls. :puke:

Exactly.

What gets lost in all of this minutia aimed at determining whether or not he had a gun, fired a gun, assaulted someone, etc. is that there is still a pattern of behavior unbecoming of someone who can/will contribute positively to the team. I realize he is extremely talented, but how much patience should the team have for such a guy - especially in a year where we jettisoned a highly priced Coles for being a malcontent? Is the FO implementing a double-standard here?

My guess is that anything that comes out news-wise in the next few weeks will only influence S.Taylor's personal stake with the law, but regardless, his stature with the team should remain a big question mark. Character is character and when you don't return your coaches phone calls, don't show up for voluntary workouts despite EVERYONE ELSE on the team doing so, and then getting into trouble with the law - you are showing you don't have much character at all.

[Woofer]

Originally posted by Art


Let's just say we don't know the complete circumstances about why the gun may have been brandished if such a thing is even true. It may be. May not. But, I've told this story before. When I was a young lad the bully stole my bike. What did I do?

I went home crying to my dad.

I was bigger and stronger than the bully, but, let him push me around. The bully's family were all criminals even then -- all but the bully now in jail, two for murder I believe. So, what did my dad do? He grabbed me by the ear, twisted it, and walked me a half mile around the block, in front of everyone while I was crying, to the bully's house. Up to the front door. And he proceeded to walk in, get my bike back and tell the father of the boy, who could have kicked my dad's *****, that this was going to stop.

And we walked back home.

The moral my dad taught me was it's real easy to handle things like a man and not let people push you around. If Taylor confronted people he KNEW to have taken his property, I'm going to give him a wide bit of room to operate in such a confrontation.

Heck, I might even like that he did it :).

I can understand and even heartily agree with the fact that you have to stand up for yourself. As a victum of bullying myself, I well know the value of the lesson you learned from your dad.

Bullying doesn't stop after high school. You have to stand up for yourself throughout your entire life.

But reason and maturity need to come into play at some point. Responses must be tempered with considerations of consequences.

As far as Taylor's situation goes, the facts may turn out to be that he pulled his gun in self defense. The question is, did he have to go himself? Was it an ego thing? If you call the police in Florida, and tell them, "Soandso has stolen my property, would you please go arrest them?", would the police not even check it out? If the answer to that question is "Yes" because there are too many ATV's stolen, then the criminals have won, even if only on a small scale.

[nace14]

Originally posted by halter91


I agree 100%. I'm sure the "victims" are innocent. We don't know the facts and all the details about the victims. But I will tell you, if someone stole 2 of my ATV's, I would have someones head. But being in ST's situation, he has to relize that is could get in a lot of trouble. He could have paid someone to do the bullying. :2cents:

sweet then he gets hit with some racketteering charge or something and the FEDS come in. anyway you look at it, "doing" something was and is stupid.

[boobiemiles]

The thing I want most of all to come from this situation is a united front. I want these players to rally around each other and strat making other teams know THEY ARE PLAYING THE REDSKINS. The media unfairly target us a a disfuctional franchise. What did we do wrong? I know we are seen as the evil empire becuase of our personell moves. But we don't have people kill anybody, traffic drugs acroos state lines, or set up drug transactions. We have character players like Darrel Green and Doc Walker. So what we don't win, we play with integrity and class. And the icon of this organization carries a big stick and never mentions it. Joe Gibbs embodies what a head coach should be, tireless, innovative, and diligent. Instead the media keeps saying we suck, we don't know what we're doing. Come on, atleast we have three superbowl rings in four appearances. I can't wait for September, joe needs to rally the troops, and go to war. We need to get bloody this year.

[tr1]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

Soccer boy, here...since we don't all know the facts, but we're willing to conjecture, let me put this forward.

Say ST called the police when he discovered his ATVs missing. Say he fills out a report and later learns the whereabouts of the ATVs...and then tells the police. In the meantime, he goes out an buys 5 ATVs just for the hell of it. Result: No possible prison time, no embarrassment of the Redskins, and finally, no reason for me to have to post about this stupid crap (instead of focusing on my pal TO.)

But we don't have the facts, do we.

We DO know that the police believe they have enough witnesses and evidence to charge him with a felony and assault. I guess I'll just have to rely on the police's actions until I hear ST blame somebody else...until I hear one bit of contrition from ST about anything, I can only believe that he's a punk who never thinks he's wrong...just a victim.

I also resolve that this is my last post about ST until his hearing...I'm expecting TO to open his mouth any minute now.

BTW, my game of choice in my youth was rugby...

[dfbovey]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


A man uses his fists, a little coward b*tch hides behind a weapon.

Unless you have good cause to believe that your opponent has a weapon.

Either way, Taylor is a complete idiot for not calling the police.

[budski]

Art, I dont know the details either, cant even understand your post really. There is one fact though when the police are looking for you it is usually not good news, theyre bringing, the other fact is when your out on bail you must have done something for the cops to take such an interest in you.

[budski]

It doesnt take a lawyer or court transcript to figure that out.

[Califan007]

That ANY of the behavior known so far is being contorted into ANYONE simply being a "man" is scary...

To me, being a "man" has always meant one thing: doing what's right. Not doing what feels best, or doing what our emotions tell us from one moment to the next...it's not doing whatever our pride or ego dictates, or doing what's the most expedient.

It's doing what's right. Period. Whether it's taking care of your kids, not cheating on a test, honoring your word...anything. When you're a man, you know the right thing to do, and you do it.

Determining that you are allowed to be police, judge and jury whenever a crime is committed against you is not doing the right thing...by any stretch. That Taylor may have very well decided he gets to be all three of those things because something material was taken from him only makes it worse.

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Califan007
That ANY of the behavior known so far is being contorted into ANYONE simply being a "man" is scary...

To me, being a "man" has always meant one thing: doing what's right. Not doing what feels best, or doing what our emotions tell us from one moment to the next...it's not doing whatever our pride or ego dictates, or doing what's the most expedient.

It's doing what's right. Period. Whether it's taking care of your kids, not cheating on a test, honoring your word...anything. When you're a man, you know the right thing to do, and you do it.

Determining that you are allowed to be police, judge and jury whenever a crime is committed against you is not doing the right thing...by any stretch. That Taylor may have very well decided he gets to be all three of those things because something material was taken from him only makes it worse.

Agreed.:cheers:

[Califan007]

By the way...another reason the way Sean Taylor dealt with this was horribly stupid that I haven't seen mentioned so far: what if he was wrong?? What if the guys he alledgedly pointed a gun at and returned to beat up and threaten with a baseball bat...did NOT have anything to do with his ATVs missing? Or should we not consider that possibility?

[Om]

All I'm going to add to this is that I seem to have a somewhat different idea of what being a "man" is than some of you.

To me, being a man means knowing when to use judgment and discretion in a given situation instead of machismo and bravado.

Being a man means being able to recognize when a situation stops being about image, street cred or ego, and becomes about using your head to consider the possible ramifications ... even while passions run high.

Being a man is being secure enough in your manhood to be able to walk away from a situation where your discretion and BRAIN tells you you have far more to potentially lose than can possibly be gained by acting like real life is a middle school playground.

Being a man means understanding the difference between projecting toughness, and acting like a grown up.

A "man" can differentiate between standing up for a worthy cause, and possibly throwing away a future for nothing more than what sounds like insecurity about whether one's peers will think them a man.

Sean Taylor is a tough guy. But to my way of thinking, he's got a long way to go before I'm going to call him a complete man.

*

Edit: didn't see your post before writing this, Califan. I obviously agree with you 100%.

[budski]

Om,
You forgot one.
Being a man also means returning your bosses phone calls.

[Om]

Well, I was going for something a bit loftier ... but you're right.

It means that too. :)

[ntotoro]

Originally posted by budski
Om,
You forgot one.
Being a man also means returning your bosses phone calls.

Apparently unless you're a pro athlete, returning your boss' phone calls is also "being employed." :laugh:

Nick

[BG]

Why do so many of you want Taylor to take the fall? It is obvious that you do.

As of last night, there was no supporting evidence to the story as many of us said to wait for the facts to come out. Yet some people still want to find a way to make Taylor out to be someone that this story doesn't quite corroborate.

I think we have been spoiled by guys like Darrell Green. Don't get me wrong, but if this team was full of Darrell Green's, better yet, if this world was full of Darrell Green's, it would be a better place. That has obvioulsy never been the case with this team or life in general.

For every Darrell Green, there is a Dexter Manly. People get put in precarious situations and do there best to get out of them. Sometimes they take the "right" course and are labeled heros. Sometimes they are lucky or use great tact and never find themselves in similar scenarios.

I am not saying Taylor is totally innocent. I am not saying that Taylor is a dirtbag either. All I am doing is giving Taylor the benefit of the doubt until ALL the facts are in.

[Brooklynskinsfan]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).
you are totaly right. The way I grew up you are seen as a snitch or a pussie if you go to the police. there is kind of an unwritten rule that we have. Especialy when it comes to being robbed, you ether take it like a man or go get your property back.;)

[Om]

Originally posted by Brooklynskinsfan

you are totaly right. The way I grew up you are seen as a snitch or a pussie if you go to the police. there is kind of an unwritten rule that we have. Especialy when it comes to being robbed, you ether take it like a man or go get your property back.;)

Just curious ... were any of you multi-millionaire public figures with both your hometown and national press watching your every move 24/7?

[Brooklynskinsfan]

Originally posted by Om


Just curious ... were any of you multi-millionaire public figures with both your hometown and national press watching your every move 24/7? definatly not, I am just saying It was the 'Manly' thing to do. Which is definatly not always the smart thing to do. Its funny though a lot of professional athletes go back to their old neighborhoods and get robbed, yett they dont grab a gun. They just collect the insurance :laugh:

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Om


Just curious ... were any of you multi-millionaire public figures with both your hometown and national press watching your every move 24/7?

Even if he's not ... does it really matter?

[Om]

Originally posted by Brooklynskinsfan
definatly not, I am just saying It was the 'Manly' thing to do. Which is definatly not always the smart thing to do. Its funny though a lot of professional athletes go back to their old neighborhoods and get robbed, yett they dont grab a gun. They just collect the insurance :laugh:

In that case, I simply refer back to my different interpretation of what it means to be a man.


Originally posted by bird_1972


Even if he's not ... does it really matter?

Of course not. I was probing ... :)

[illone]

Looks like the story is changing every minute.

I bet it comes out that Taylor never had a gun in the first place. The other guy had the gun, Taylor beat him took the weapon and the guy who got beat up is trying to twist the story.

Crazier things have happened.

The story will unfold in due time.

[lovellj]

Originally posted by BG
Why do so many of you want Taylor to take the fall? It is obvious that you do.

As of last night, there was no supporting evidence to the story as many of us said to wait for the facts to come out. Yet some people still want to find a way to make Taylor out to be someone that this story doesn't quite corroborate.

I think we have been spoiled by guys like Darrell Green. Don't get me wrong, but if this team was full of Darrell Green's, better yet, if this world was full of Darrell Green's, it would be a better place. That has obvioulsy never been the case with this team or life in general.

For every Darrell Green, there is a Dexter Manly. People get put in precarious situations and do there best to get out of them. Sometimes they take the "right" course and are labeled heros. Sometimes they are lucky or use great tact and never find themselves in similar scenarios.

I am not saying Taylor is totally innocent. I am not saying that Taylor is a dirtbag either. All I am doing is giving Taylor the benefit of the doubt until ALL the facts are in.

This is completely on-point. It has been a total of 4 days since we've found out anything about this case (excluding the fact that it was posted as rumour beforehand) and yet everyone is screaming bloody murder and calling for the kid to be cut. I really feel as if a large portion of this is due to the fact that Taylor doesn't speak to the media. He makes no attempts to defend any of his actions or any accusations made against him, and, as such, is pretty much presumed to be guilty each time. Just as BG said, a player that impressed me so much on the field last year is someone I am not willing to throw away without knowing more.

[wskin44]

Originally posted by Om
All I'm going to add to this is that I seem to have a somewhat different idea of what being a "man" is than some of you.

To me, being a man means knowing when to use judgment and discretion in a given situation instead of machismo and bravado.

Being a man means being able to recognize when a situation stops being about image, street cred or ego, and becomes about using your head to consider the possible ramifications ... even while passions run high.

Being a man is being secure enough in your manhood to be able to walk away from a situation where your discretion and BRAIN tells you you have far more to potentially lose than can possibly be gained by acting like real life is a middle school playground.

Being a man means understanding the difference between projecting toughness, and acting like a grown up.

A "man" can differentiate between standing up for a worthy cause, and possibly throwing away a future for nothing more than what sounds like insecurity about whether one's peers will think them a man.

Sean Taylor is a tough guy. But to my way of thinking, he's got a long way to go before I'm going to call him a complete man.

I don't think I've ever read a better definition for manhood Om.

Another way of saying the same thing: a guy who let's machismo or bravado determine his behavior rather than judgement or discretion, is just a puppet on a string. He's letting his emotions determine his behavior and really has no control or choice. Sometimes a situation calls for getting in someone's face. But a man thinks through his options, determines the best course, sets some limits, and then lets his emotions take over so that getting in that persons' face is believable and effective. All the time he is in control even if it doesn't appear that way. Then he is the puppet master controlling the situation.

A person who lets his emotions determine his actions is just a puppet on a string, a slave to his own emotions, the exact opposite of a man.

Even in the wild west, pulling a gun on an unarmed man was not considered manly. Someone who would do or condone that is a couple bricks shy of a load.

[budski]

The real story is Taylor threw the gun at the guy, Taylor doesnt even own any ATV's, it was his TVs that were stolen.
Taylor is really in training camp and this is his twin brother in trouble.
And the bat was corked therefore making it a nonlethal weapon.
And all the threads and opinions on Taylor on this board are a bunch of Physchobabble B.S including my own.
Later, somebody wake me when we start talking football.

[Grumpy Vet]

I think I look at things too practically and emotionless.

If you break it down in relative terms, I cannot fathom someone even putting themselves in such a situation. Whether Sean fired a gun, didn't.....had one, didn't - beat the crud outta someone......he shouldn't have been there packing - essentially setting himself up for what happened....

Were I in his situation, I would not have been......Let me explain my rationale:

Sean Taylor was going to make a minimum of $18 mil and a max of $40 mil. Let's meet in the middle somewhere and say he was going to make $30 mil over the next 7 years. This is w/o any endorsements or anything else - just football.

This equates to $4.3 mil per year. Someone stole 2 ATVs from him. Unless they were goldplated, the top of the line brand new ATVs I can find are less than $9K each. So he had $18,000 in property stolen from him. This is .42% of his gross yearly income.

To put this in relative terms:

The median income for the US is around $45K per household. For this family it would be like having something worth $189 stolen.

A better off family that had a $100K household income would have lost something worth $420.

Not exactly chump change - but relatively speaking, not a major loss. Perhaps the first example had a nice weedwhacker stolen and the second family had a decent Webber grill heisted.

Most rational people would report it stolen, claim it on insurance or just take precautions that it did not happen again. I know if someone stole my grill, I'd be reluctant to go threaten them with a gun and punch them out. Would I go talk to them? You betcha. If that didn't work - instead of going John Rambo - I'd call the authorities.....if they did nothing - so what. On the whole scheme of things....so what. This is less than 1/2 of 1% of my gross income.

Maybe that makes me less of a man. However, my family won't ever have to worry about me being locked up, killed or worse - getting them hurt just so I can prove that I have the testicular fortitude to wave a gun in somebody's face or beat someone down to recover something that cost me, relatively speaking, very little.

[dreamingwolf]

the bat was corked???

thats it Im done with Taylor now, kick him off the team!

[Jay Master Jay]

Maybe he might get a slap on the wrist but Joe Gibbs needs to tell this young fool my way or you're out of here Mister.

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by Califan007
That ANY of the behavior known so far is being contorted into ANYONE simply being a "man" is scary...

To me, being a "man" has always meant one thing: doing what's right. Not doing what feels best, or doing what our emotions tell us from one moment to the next...it's not doing whatever our pride or ego dictates, or doing what's the most expedient.

It's doing what's right. Period. Whether it's taking care of your kids, not cheating on a test, honoring your word...anything. When you're a man, you know the right thing to do, and you do it.

Determining that you are allowed to be police, judge and jury whenever a crime is committed against you is not doing the right thing...by any stretch. That Taylor may have very well decided he gets to be all three of those things because something material was taken from him only makes it worse.

Count me in on the Califan version of being a "man" bandwagon!

Well said.

H

[Butz65]

What an idiot. Let's see - I have $18 million at stake (enough to last a few lifetimes if I'm smart).

First, I'm going to ignore the one mandate from my head coach to not embarass the Redskins and get caught for speeding/DUI during the season.

Next, I'll decide to ignore the contract I signed and skip the team's offseason workouts b/c I'm burned out from playing 1 season of pro football. During that time I'll refuse to answer my "Hall of Fame" head coach's (and Team President's) phone calls.

Wow that's just not enough risk. Let's see - to top it all off I'll grab a gun and go after some guys I thought stole 2 of my (how many?) cars (by the way which I could have replaced with the change in my pocket or through my insurance).

If the Redskins have any cajones they'll let ST go (NFL and/or Florida may force this to happen anyway), swallow their pride in making yet another draft mistake and move forward. Let this guy figure out what it means to work for a living - perhaps then he'll grow up.

If I had the ability to make that kind of money and set my family up for life I'd make damn sure that I didn't put it in jeopardy.

:puke:

[HailSkinz1]

For those who think Sean Taylor was simply exerting his "manhood," I wonder how you would vote if the question was: "Who do you consider to best define what it means to be a man? Sean Taylor or Darrell Green.

It should be a landslide.

H

[skinshog]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1
For those who think Sean Taylor was simply exerting his "manhood," I wonder how you would vote if the question was: "Who do you consider to best define what it means to be a man? Sean Taylor or Darrell Green.

It should be a landslide.

H

Well put. Darrell has my vote. Instead of taking notes from Al Capone, maybe Taylor should take notes from Darrell. At least hang around a better crowd and answer your hall of fame coach's calls. :logo: :helmet:

[ciresolstice]

Originally posted by Om
All I'm going to add to this is that I seem to have a somewhat different idea of what being a "man" is than some of you.

To me, being a man means knowing when to use judgment and discretion in a given situation instead of machismo and bravado.

Being a man means being able to recognize when a situation stops being about image, street cred or ego, and becomes about using your head to consider the possible ramifications ... even while passions run high.

Being a man is being secure enough in your manhood to be able to walk away from a situation where your discretion and BRAIN tells you you have far more to potentially lose than can possibly be gained by acting like real life is a middle school playground.

Being a man means understanding the difference between projecting toughness, and acting like a grown up.

A "man" can differentiate between standing up for a worthy cause, and possibly throwing away a future for nothing more than what sounds like insecurity about whether one's peers will think them a man.

Sean Taylor is a tough guy. But to my way of thinking, he's got a long way to go before I'm going to call him a complete man.

*



^^^ Thank You! I need not reply at any length about this. That says it completely for me. well said.

edit: califan007 also. well put bro. that's the difference to me. while others will resort to caveman thinking. Me Hulk Smash!

[Rocky21]

Originally posted by Grumpy Vet
I think I look at things too practically and emotionless.

If you break it down in relative terms, I cannot fathom someone even putting themselves in such a situation. Whether Sean fired a gun, didn't.....had one, didn't - beat the crud outta someone......he shouldn't have been there packing - essentially setting himself up for what happened....

Were I in his situation, I would not have been......Let me explain my rationale:

Sean Taylor was going to make a minimum of $18 mil and a max of $40 mil. Let's meet in the middle somewhere and say he was going to make $30 mil over the next 7 years. This is w/o any endorsements or anything else - just football.

This equates to $4.3 mil per year. Someone stole 2 ATVs from him. Unless they were goldplated, the top of the line brand new ATVs I can find are less than $9K each. So he had $18,000 in property stolen from him. This is .42% of his gross yearly income.

To put this in relative terms:

The median income for the US is around $45K per household. For this family it would be like having something worth $189 stolen.

A better off family that had a $100K household income would have lost something worth $420.

Not exactly chump change - but relatively speaking, not a major loss. Perhaps the first example had a nice weedwhacker stolen and the second family had a decent Webber grill heisted.

Most rational people would report it stolen, claim it on insurance or just take precautions that it did not happen again. I know if someone stole my grill, I'd be reluctant to go threaten them with a gun and punch them out. Would I go talk to them? You betcha. If that didn't work - instead of going John Rambo - I'd call the authorities.....if they did nothing - so what. On the whole scheme of things....so what. This is less than 1/2 of 1% of my gross income.

Maybe that makes me less of a man. However, my family won't ever have to worry about me being locked up, killed or worse - getting them hurt just so I can prove that I have the testicular fortitude to wave a gun in somebody's face or beat someone down to recover something that cost me, relatively speaking, very little.

I hear ya. But what does this have to do with resolving a problem by simply imposing one's will on another. Isn't this why men exist? What about the pecking order among us? :doh:

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Om


Of course not. I was probing ... :)

Ouch!

That sounds painful.

[Om]

"Pecking order"?

We don't live in caves or the Middle Ages any more. We don't live in the lawless old West. We live in 21st century America, a country of laws. Tens of thousands of our contrymen have died fighting to defend the notion that we're a nation of laws.

Due respect, but notions of social heirarchy based on testosterone should end around the 8th grade.

[wskin44]

Originally posted by Om
notions of social heirarchy based on testosterone should end around the 8th grade.

They should, but unfortunately we have a lot children running around in men's bodies. They beat their wives and children and pull guns on folks to get their way. That's why we have laws. I hate to say it, but it isn't going to do ST any good to get off scott free.

[cphil006]

It depends on the circumstances. he could have pointed the gun in self-defense because he felt like his life was threatened by these guys. Someone fired shots at him, so that might be the case. He did not fire his gun.

Let's continue to supprot him at least until all the facts come out. he is still a Redskin and we want him on the team...

[Mufumonk]

I'd say it's a very real possibility that he never pulled a gun out in the first place. This could be a case of "manning up" by the thieves after getting their asses beat. In turn, they take shots at ST and co. and when questioned about it, say he drew arms first to cover their own asses. People need to think outside the box once in awhile. When ST admits to pulling out a weapon, or is convicted of an actual crime, then I'll cast stones. Till then, last I checked, you were innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

[Ian]

I've noticed a lot of suggestions that Taylor should have phoned the Police and not gone looking for his own form of 'justice'.

I believe his father was a Sherriff or head of Police down there in Florida. With this in mind, his behaviour becomes more and more inexplicable. Criminal maybe not if he's got a good lawyer but why?

[manleyistheman]

Originally posted by Om
All I'm going to add to this is that I seem to have a somewhat different idea of what being a "man" is than some of you.

To me, being a man means knowing when to use judgment and discretion in a given situation instead of machismo and bravado.

Being a man means being able to recognize when a situation stops being about image, street cred or ego, and becomes about using your head to consider the possible ramifications ... even while passions run high.

Being a man is being secure enough in your manhood to be able to walk away from a situation where your discretion and BRAIN tells you you have far more to potentially lose than can possibly be gained by acting like real life is a middle school playground.

Being a man means understanding the difference between projecting toughness, and acting like a grown up.

A "man" can differentiate between standing up for a worthy cause, and possibly throwing away a future for nothing more than what sounds like insecurity about whether one's peers will think them a man.

Sean Taylor is a tough guy. But to my way of thinking, he's got a long way to go before I'm going to call him a complete man.

*

Edit: didn't see your post before writing this, Califan. I obviously agree with you 100%.


Couldn't agree more. I certainly have put myself in this type of circumstances in my life. And, I can say from experience that my friends and I tried coming up with excuses for which we were the victim. Every situation can always be spun to make our decisions seem justified. However, it wasn't until I really matured that I realized that as long as I continued to place myself in these situations, whether it be because of the people I socialized with or actions I took, I was never truly ever innocent.

I'm not saying that ST did any of the things that are being alleged. None of us know that. But, at the very least he is guilty of making bad decisions that put him in vulnerable situations. Until he makes changes, these events will continue.

I will support the Redskins team in any decision it makes.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Ian
I've noticed a lot of suggestions that Taylor should have phoned the Police and not gone looking for his own form of 'justice'.

I believe his father was a Sherriff or head of Police down there in Florida. With this in mind, his behaviour becomes more and more inexplicable. Criminal maybe not if he's got a good lawyer but why?

I don't think he went out specifically hunting these guys, I care to believe that something happened during the night in question to lead him to them by chance. Say actually seeing his ATV's or someone came to him and told him they know where is ATV's are... I don't think it was totally premeditated

[red zone]

Originally posted by Mufumonk
I'd say it's a very real possibility that he never pulled a gun out in the first place. This could be a case of "manning up" by the thieves after getting their asses beat. In turn, they take shots at ST and co. and when questioned about it, say he drew arms first to cover their own asses. People need to think outside the box once in awhile. When ST admits to pulling out a weapon, or is convicted of an actual crime, then I'll cast stones. Till then, last I checked, you were innocent till proven guilty in a court of law.

Bravo Mufu. This is considerably more plausible than most of the early reports. The one piece of the logic trail people keep omitting is the final location of the ATVs. Do we really think Sean would have rolled up strapped and come away empty handed?

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by bubba9497


I don't think he went out specifically hunting these guys, I care to believe that something happened during the night in question to lead him to them by chance. Say actually seeing his ATV's or someone came to him and told him they know where is ATV's are... I don't think it was totally premeditated

Yeah, and I'm sure Taylor checked the VINs on each vehicle to make sure they were his. And he always carries a gun, for protection, of course. Guess when he reported his stolen ATVs to the police, they were too slow for him.

By the way, Bubba, I have some land in Florida I'm looking to sell....

H

[Mufumonk]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1


Yeah, and I'm sure Taylor checked the VINs on each vehicle to make sure they were his. And he always carries a gun, for protection, of course. Guess when he reported his stolen ATVs to the police, they were too slow for him.

By the way, Bubba, I have some land in Florida I'm looking to sell....

H

Suppose he was carrying a gun. Has it been stated anywhere that he was carrying without a permit?

[manleyistheman]

Originally posted by red zone


Bravo Mufu. This is considerably more plausible than most of the early reports. The one piece of the logic trail people keep omitting is the final location of the ATVs. Do we really think Sean would have rolled up strapped and come away empty handed?

How exactly is this more plausible? What do you know that the rest of us don't? I would give you and ST the benefit of the doubt if he were a relative or someone you had known all your life and could honestly say that it is our of character. That's not the case here. In fact, if we know anything about him, it is that he makes terrible decisions.
Don't confuse what as Redskins fans we want to have happened with what is the more plausible scenario.
I'd be very interested to know how people would react if it had been a Cowboy or Eagle.

[wskin44]

We can all assume this or that about the situation until the facts are known (if they ever are), and I would be happy to find out that ST acted reasonably at all times and either never pulled a gun or only did so to protect himself, but given what what we have observed about ST's maturity so far, my hopes are thin.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

Those pansy soccer players...... ;)

I agree with you to an extent, Art; there is a time and place to take something into your own hands. For example, I wouldn't call the cops if some creep kept copping feels on my girlfriend; I'd lay him out. Or if someone stole something from me, and I had a pretty good idea of who it was, I would probably confront them. Or as you know, on the rugby pitch there tends to be "scuffles" from time to time (I think you played Rugby, right?).

But when he pulled out a gun, he crossed a line, in my opinion. Now, the streets are getting meaner every day, so maybe he needed a gun. And judging by the fact that they shot at him later, maybe he did. But if that was the case, why go after them in the first place? This is one of those instances where I think calling the police was merited.

[jschlesi]

Cant wait to see it on COURTV

[cjbrown]

4-6 months served (in offseason of course) 2 1/2 year probation, 10,000 fine. Appear on "Vacation in Florida" commercial "I did for 6 months."

[trez]

Originally posted by mark327


t. i could see why someone would not have called the police ,because all they do is take a police report for stolen ATV's in FL. basicly if one is stolen then you need to find it yourself :( they are stolen everyday and so often the police can't keep up with it.

HTTR

This completely misses the point that Sean Taylor supposedly knew who had his ATV. Why else would he confront them? He should have done the sensible thing, call the police, file the report, and name these jokers as suspects. It would have been soooo easy. The fact that this kid's father is a cop makes his actions even more incomprehensible. He should at least have had an idea about the ability of the police to recover his property, and the consequences of his criminal action.

This guy is a ignorant, arrogant thug. Perhaps 3 years behind bars is what he needs. Nothing else, apparently, is working.

[sweet daddy]

Originally posted by trez


This completely misses the point that Sean Taylor supposedly knew who had his ATV. Why else would he confront them? He should have done the sensible thing, call the police, file the report, and name these jokers as suspects. It would have been soooo easy. The fact that this kid's father is a cop makes his actions even more incomprehensible. He should at least have had an idea about the ability of the police to recover his property, and the consequences of his criminal action.

This guy is a ignorant, arrogant thug. Perhaps 3 years behind bars is what he needs. Nothing else, apparently, is working.

Well I am not ready to dole any punishment but I believe that on the night in question at some point Taylor made a poor decision that has led to this whole fiasco. This is just one of a series of poor decision he has made over this past year that leaves me the only conclusion -- he has poor judgement.

[Art]

Originally posted by BiGdiCeBuDdHa


How does it not work in the real world? I don't carry a gun. I've never had a gun pulled on me. The key is NOT BEING IN THAT SITUATION. However, I was responding to Art's incredibly naive post about "being a man". A gun doesn't make you a man, BTW. You don't agree?

In order for my post to contain a level of naivety one would have to first show where Art suggested the use of a gun made one a man. Perhaps if you followed the thread of conversation you'd be less confused in reply?

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1


Yeah, and I'm sure Taylor checked the VINs on each vehicle to make sure they were his. And he always carries a gun, for protection, of course. Guess when he reported his stolen ATVs to the police, they were too slow for him.

By the way, Bubba, I have some land in Florida I'm looking to sell....

H


:doh: act like you have some sense, really... my point was people act like he patrolling , with a lynch mob, harassing Innocent bystanders. :rolleyes:

think about it if you see a car like yours that was stolen, you wouldn't investigate.... something alerted his attention to those two... correct?

please get over yourself,

1. alleged gun

2. who knows where it came from

3. if he owns a gun, not far fetched he keeps in his car, or got it after he was alerted

just becaused you were tricked into buying FL. swamp land.... doesn't mean I'll be fooled into taking it

:laugh: :laugh:

[Art]

While I certainly appreciate a great deal of the sentiment expressed here by Cali and Om, a part of me read both posts and said to myself, "Sure, confrontation and imposing one's will on another isn't what you'd use to define a man, because, it's not something either of you possess as a trait."

That isn't to be insulting, but, the simple fact remains that those who look to avoid cofrontation when one is deserved tend to be the very people I'm talking about, even if they didn't play soccer. Wimps :).

That does not mean Cali OR Om are wimps. It just means -- and I could be wrong -- I suspect when a challenge comes up that requires physical action to resolve, neither of you have that ability in you, whether from a physical makeup or mental disposition.

Therefore, you're not likely to see the point, made -- as stated -- with a bit of jocularity initially.

The point is, there IS, absolutely, a time to be the men you define. And, there's a time to be the man I define. One can't be all one at the exclusion of the other and be a man.

There's a time you have to man-up and it is absolutely the right thing to do. When is that time? Probably depends on the situation for each of us. Was this a time for Taylor? I have NO idea.

The concept of this discussion was based on the thought that he should, naturally, have gone to the cops. And, simply, that's not always the answer. Sometimes there's a far easier solution. Sometimes that gets complex too :).

Again, this has less to do with the unknown specifics of anything Taylor may have done than merely serving as a general statement.

As for Taylor, I see people making comment that simply brandishing a gun for any reason is enough to merit negative statements. That's just not the case. I imagine when this is over and all the details are in, I'll look at this case and think Taylor was a bit of a tool.

I just suspect there are a NUMBER of you, who when confronted with the facts, no matter what they may be, won't alter your thoughts one bit. That's too bad really.

[Furious-D]

"Man" taking evening strole down Extremeskins boardwalk spies suspect post laying across his path...........



Originally posted by Art


Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Still, we know not all problems need to be taken to the cops. Sometimes a problem can be resolved by simple imposing one's will on another. This is why men exist. This is why there's a pecking order among us :). Calling the police is for soccer players :).

Yes, some of this is a bit of a joke, but, some of it isn't. He who figures out which part wins nothing, but, will likely enjoy this post. The rest will sit back and say, "That's crazy. This isn't the Wild West. We're civilized. We shouldn't do that. Men shouldn't BE men."

And they'll be upset while looking on an old soccer photo of themselves :).

IT'S BAIT!!!

He sniffs the bait............

Oh my god! It smells like *****!!!

...........no wait...... it smells like anarchy......or is it *****..........

it's so hard to tell......they smell so similar:laugh:

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

A girl I know lives in a small town in the Seattle area.

Her house was broken into at least twice(I think three times) and 2 of the three she had a suspect to give to police and asked them to check for fingerprints and check these suspects.

The cops gave her a card and number and DID NOTHING.

They called the guy's house and knocked to see if he was there. That's IT.

NOTHING WAS EVER DONE ABOUT IT.

THESE ARE BURGLARIES!

Don't be so quick to talk about the police, considering they didn't do ___ for a SINGLE YOUNG WOMAN living ALONE in a rural area who had a GOOD IDEA on the identity of the suspects--and they did zippo!

At their best, police are crime historians and good patrol deterrents. They can't help you in most situations and as seen with riots and sexual assaults during the PR Day Parade in NY, they'll often stand there while a crime is taking place. They arent even legally obligated to assist an individual person at any time.

And this comes from someone who went through the whole application process to become an officer.

So, yes, I agree with Art there is a time to be a man and go outside of a legal system that can't even earn arrests in most crimes that are reported and where cops are more interested in the easy bust or revenue-generation than doing the hard investigatory work.

We are a nation of laws, but for us to truly be a nation of laws, shouldn't the authorities enforce the laws and take crimes against person and property seriously? At some point, you handle your own, because for many decades in this country, the police did not exist. Our country, in the civilized parts, was probably safer to live in when we didn't HAVE police forces than it is now.

I'd also point out that the laws that governed us before are not necessarily the laws that govern us now.

Hell, they sell drugs damn near openly at this one spot in downtown Seattle, and the cops don't do anything about that either.

That's not an excuse for Taylor acting out of proportion with what was happening, but I don't KNOW FOR SURE that is what happened.

What if THEY Pulled a gun on HIM and are just lying to get him in trouble for confronting them?

Taylor could be innocent of these charges or at least in that gray area where we "understand" his actions.

[Tarhog]

I haven't waded through every post in this one....

There are a couple of thoughts I have regarding your posts here Art. First of all, I don't necessarily disagree entirely with the premise that there are perfectly legitimate times where 'manning up' is an appropriate reaction. Not knowing exactly what went on with Taylor here, I suppose its possible this was one of those for him.

But where you lose me is his total disregard for the ramifications of 'manning up'. I honestly can't imagine he even considered them. I've not seen much evidence the guy ever considers the ramifications of his actions?

There are a lot of times where great personal satisfaction could be had, and perhaps be justified/rationalized, in dealing with the idiots of this world. But since none of us operate in isolation - we have family members, wives, kids, co-workers, friends, many whom depend on us to act rationally - we have to suppress some of our more native urges. I hope he finds the memory of how he handled this particular situation gratifying. Because its going to cost him, and maybe his team as well. Thats all I care about - the impact on the Redskins.

You want to blow stuff up, bayonet people, deliver some manly justice, bring superior firepower to bear on people who deserve it?

Join the damn Marine Corps.

You want to be a beloved member of my favorite NFL team? Try not to put yourself in the tabloid headlines every year. And show your coach and team some respect.

I do FEEL some of what you're saying. I just don't think Taylor's having problems because he's an alpha male chock full of noble courage. I just think he's got problems.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

And I agree with you, Tarhog. I don't think Taylor necessarily acted appropriately.

But as I've stated many times in Tailgate, it's not the specific point that is being made that I disagree with, but how an opinion is formed. I dig what Om is saying, but I think it's too easy to judge Taylor NOT based on his pattern up until now, but based merely on certain 'indicators' that are not indicators of 'thuggery' at all (like the mere fact of carrying a firearm.)

I also think it might be a touch premature to assume that charges filed on the word of potential thieves/criminals must be true on all points.

[Art]

Tar,

I mentioned in a post earlier to BG, I think, that in Taylor's case, he does have many cash reasons, on top of reasons others might have, to more carefully consider what he gets involved with. I don't disagree with you that Taylor seems to lack in the decision making department, no matter what may come of this situation.

[Tarhog]

Even though I'm obviously a square conservative law and order type, I can honestly say - I'm much more irritated with Taylor not being with the Skins and blowing off Gibbs than I am this incident.

Had he not pulled that previous stuff, I'd chalk this latest debacle up to a poor snap decision and too much testosterone (things we've all experienced in our twenties to some degree). It'd be stupid but not unforgiveable.

Its ironic that just prior to needing as much fan support as he could get, Taylor pissed it away playing contract games.

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by The Showstopper
hes gonna find a way to get out of this, but i dont think he should, maybe this will straighten him out

Hell, if he's innocent he's innocent. The man's crazy, he isn't stupid though, I'll give him that. He atleast knew better than to fire that gun at all, given he even had a gun. Again, not enough facts, just a trail of bread crumbs. :mad:

[skinshog]

Originally posted by Tarhog
Even though I'm obviously a square conservative law and order type, I can honestly say - I'm much more irritated with Taylor not being with the Skins and blowing off Gibbs than I am this incident.

Had he not pulled that previous stuff, I'd chalk this latest debacle up to a poor snap decision and too much testosterone (things we've all experienced in our twenties to some degree). It'd be stupid but not unforgiveable.

Its ironic that just prior to needing as much fan support as he could get, Taylor pissed it away playing contract games.

I'm the same way coach. If it wasn't for him ignoring Gibbs and not making even the slightest notice to the effort put in by his fellow players at the OTA's, I wouldn't be making as much of this.

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by Renegade7


Hell, if he's innocent he's innocent. The man's crazy, he isn't stupid though, I'll give him that. He atleast knew better than to fire that gun at all, given he even had a gun. Again, not enough facts, just a trail of bread crumbs. :mad:

Or maybe he just couldn't figure out how to take the safety off :)

[Renegade7]

Originally posted by Tarhog


Or maybe he just couldn't figure out how to take the safety off :)

Ok, that'd make him stupid. ;)


















and lucky:2cents:

[sweet daddy]

When I think about it....I guess there are only two situations I will use physical force in anger against another human.

1. If I HAVE been physically harmed

2. my wife or two daughters HAVE been harmed or are ABOUT to be harmed.

I really cannot think of any other situations when I would come out ahead using such force when considering all ramifications.

I think we would all be suprised at the number of people with anger management problems.

[Art]

Originally posted by sweet daddy
When I think about it....I guess there are only two situations I will use physical force in anger against another human.

1. If I HAVE been physically harmed

2. my wife or two daughters HAVE been harmed or are ABOUT to be harmed.

I really cannot think of any other situations when I would come out ahead using such force when considering all ramifications.

I think we would all be suprised at the number of people with anger management problems.

That's it?

Soccer player :).

Three weeks ago I was playing basketball and banging this new guy around. He didn't like it much, because he's a pretty boy who likes to be left alone. So, he threw the ball at me and told me he was going to beat my f@ggot *****.

I'm one of two white guys in the gym. He decided to stand tall and impose his will on me, figuring I'd back down. Instead, I picked him up, threw him to the ground, stepped on his neck and told one of my friends there to save my new b!tch before he dies.

That guy has played several times since and been no problem.

Point?

There are a lot of good reasons to use force. If you can :).

If you can't, you play soccer :).

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Art


That's it?

Soccer player :).

Three weeks ago I was playing basketball and banging this new guy around. He didn't like it much, because he's a pretty boy who likes to be left alone. So, he threw the ball at me and told me he was going to beat my f@ggot *****.

I'm one of two white guys in the gym. He decided to stand tall and impose his will on me, figuring I'd back down. Instead, I picked him up, threw him to the ground, stepped on his neck and told one of my friends there to save my new b!tch before he dies.

That guy has played several times since and been no problem.

Point?

There are a lot of good reasons to use force. If you can :).

If you can't, you play soccer :).

Art, does your wallet say "Bad Motherf*cker" on it?

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by Art


That's it?

Soccer player :).

Three weeks ago I was playing basketball and banging this new guy around. He didn't like it much, because he's a pretty boy who likes to be left alone. So, he threw the ball at me and told me he was going to beat my f@ggot *****.

I'm one of two white guys in the gym. He decided to stand tall and impose his will on me, figuring I'd back down. Instead, I picked him up, threw him to the ground, stepped on his neck and told one of my friends there to save my new b!tch before he dies.

That guy has played several times since and been no problem.

Point?

There are a lot of good reasons to use force. If you can :).

If you can't, you play soccer :).

if that wimp had been a real man, he'd went and got a gun, and blasted you!

the wus :laugh:











:jk:

[Art]

Originally posted by jrockster77


Art, does your wallet say "Bad Motherf*cker" on it?

No, but that's damn funny :).

[jrockster21]

You don't always even need force to diffuse a situation, just the illusion of force. I've averted many a bar-fight by puffing out my chest and getting in someone's face (started a few that way as well) and they back down really fast.

Usually you just have to say something like "If you don't get the f*** out of here right now I'm going to tear your arms off and beat you to a bloody pulp with them." Or something along those lines.....

[Art]

Originally posted by jrockster77
You don't always even need force to diffuse a situation, just the illusion of force. I've averted many a bar-fight by puffing out my chest and getting in someone's face (started a few that way as well) and they back down really fast.

Usually you just have to say something like "If you don't get the f*** out of here right now I'm going to tear your arms off and beat you to a bloody pulp with them." Or something along those lines.....

Ding.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Art


Ding.

In bar fight, however, the worst you come away with is a crooked nose and a black eye, maybe a broken rib or two and some missing teeth.

When guns start to get involved, the consequences are much more grave, which is why I think Taylor made a bad decision. There's nothing positive that can come out from pulling a gun on someone.

EDIT: with the exception of when your life is in danger, and you come out of the situation unharmed, of course.

[Mister Happy]

As far as I can tell, the only evidence that Sean pulled a gun is the testimony of two guys who are also suspected of stealing his ATV and/or shooting at him.

The way the story keeps changing over time makes me think that there are few if any witnesses outside of Sean, his friend and the two thieves.

Those two guys have absolutely no credibility as witnesses as far as I'm concerned. They could easily be lying to save their butts.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Mister Happy
As far as I can tell, the only evidence that Sean pulled a gun is the testimony of two guys who are also suspected of stealing his ATV and/or shooting at him.

The way the story keeps changing over time makes me think that there are few if any witnesses outside of Sean, his friend and the two thieves.

Those two guys have absolutely no credibility as witnesses as far as I'm concerned. They could easily be lying to save their butts.

That's all the information that has been released. We don't know where the incident took place, so it may have been in a dense residential area. If that is the case, there could be plenty of witnesses to the incident. Hopefully he happened at night so that ST's lawyers can get them thrown out.....

[BruinSkin]

Originally posted by Art
Society psycho babble. Blah Blah Blah.

Art, you need to take off your Skins goggles and take in the view sometimes. Let's not defend Sean's thug actions because he's a skin. What I find funny is that if this were an Eagle, Giant, Cowboy, Raven, etc. everyone would be all over him like Star Jones on a buffet.

Being a "man" doesn't mean taking out a firearm and taking the law into your hands. That's great in an anarchist society, but alas, we live in a place with rules and laws. Our laws say that you can't point a gun at someone for stealing something. (Unless it's a trespassing situation or something similar)

Point blank: Taylor is off kilter, and I really couldn't care if he ever came back to the team. Yeah, he's got great potential, but until he gets his act together, that's all anyone will ever remember him for.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

jrockster, that's the worst advice ever. i hope you get your ass kicked at a bar sometime.

[Art]

Originally posted by BruinSkin


Art, you need to take off your Skins goggles and take in the view sometimes. Let's not defend Sean's thug actions because he's a skin. What I find funny is that if this were an Eagle, Giant, Cowboy, Raven, etc. everyone would be all over him like Star Jones on a buffet.

Being a "man" doesn't mean taking out a firearm and taking the law into your hands. That's great in an anarchist society, but alas, we live in a place with rules and laws. Our laws say that you can't point a gun at someone for stealing something. (Unless it's a trespassing situation or something similar)

Point blank: Taylor is off kilter, and I really couldn't care if he ever came back to the team. Yeah, he's got great potential, but until he gets his act together, that's all anyone will ever remember him for.

BruinSkin,

Let's take off our idiot glasses once in a while and concede neither one of us has a clue what happened or what the facts may be of the Taylor situation, so, this isn't about wearing Skins goggles. I'm not proposing the idea Taylor did a good thing as a fact. Simply as an option. I've even suggested when the facts are in I'll probably view Taylor's actions in a bit of an unflattering light.

I even said in this thread that while I'm open to forming an opinion based on the facts, there are a lot of you -- YOU apparently -- who have formed an opinion and have decided before knowing what actually happened.

It would be splendid if the simple thought that perhaps we don't know enough to be all that upset yet isn't seen as some blind homerism, but, rather, the option of a thoughtful person willing to see exactly what did happen before determining what ails Sean Taylor.

I've got no problem with the thought Taylor wanted to mess with some guys who may have stolen something from him. I think that's actually pretty cool. Perhaps your anger is when confronted by the people who stole from you in your life, you didn't have the stones or the father to teach you to go get it back yourself :).

That's a shame.

[Art]

Originally posted by Tulane Skins Fan
jrockster, that's the worst advice ever. i hope you get your ass kicked at a bar sometime.

You're nuts if you think that's bad advice. That's the greatest advice in the world. More fights are avoided through one party showing a willingness to get in one -- eagerly -- than are undertaken by less certain positions.

Trust me. I've been a bouncer at bars and you rarely have to fight to get guys to bend to you -- and as a bouncer, guys take shots at you all the time by design. You simply have to convince them you RELISH the fight, whether you do or not, and they will leave very quickly when you tell them it's time to go.

I've told this story here as well about a few years ago going downtown to a bar with my wife and one of her friends. A little guy was going nuts in line. Pushed his girl down. The bouncer there was a tiny little pr!ck who was afraid. No one was doing anything while this guy was going wild. So, I walked up to him, patted him on the shoulder, pulled him roughly back and informed him of the remarkable level of pain he'd begin experiencing if he didn't rapidly move on.

He started talking some serious *****. Only, it was three blocks away and he had to yell it :).

[fansince62]

Right on Art!

Also, this is a test for the Redskins. until such time as the young man has to be written off as a total loss - the true ethos of the Redskins' family is gonna be out there for all to see. Will the team stick by a troubled player in good times AND bad? Is the team interested (as well as invested) in developing this individual - who has some obvious problems - and maturing him into a good citizen who fully realizes his potential.......or is the team gonna walk the moment the going gets rough? If it does walk - it puts the lie to the idea of a Redskin family.

yes, from a distance, it looks like ST doesn't get the "big picture". maybe he doesn't care. until such time as we know for sure, the Skins need to stick by this young man. There's more at stake than the propriety of unrequited phonecalls and bruising tackles.

btw Art....I have to admit that if someone stole my car and I enjoyd the luxury of confronting them - I would be sorely tempted to lay the peace pipe aside!

[Rocky21]

The glorious return of the internet tuff guy.

[red zone]

Originally posted by jrockster77
You don't always even need force to diffuse a situation, just the illusion of force. I've averted many a bar-fight by puffing out my chest and getting in someone's face (started a few that way as well) and they back down really fast.

Usually you just have to say something like "If you don't get the f*** out of here right now I'm going to tear your arms off and beat you to a bloody pulp with them." Or something along those lines.....

This is exactly they way I roll when I go to the 'Skins v. Eagles games. Sad that it has come to this at FedEx, but it is a VERY effective technique.

[Om]

Originally posted by Art
[B]While I certainly appreciate a great deal of the sentiment expressed here by Cali and Om, a part of me read both posts and said to myself, "Sure, confrontation and imposing one's will on another isn't what you'd use to define a man, because, it's not something either of you possess as a trait."

That isn't to be insulting, but, the simple fact remains that those who look to avoid cofrontation when one is deserved tend to be the very people I'm talking about, even if they didn't play soccer. Wimps :).

That does not mean Cali OR Om are wimps. It just means -- and I could be wrong -- I suspect when a challenge comes up that requires physical action to resolve, neither of you have that ability in you, whether from a physical makeup or mental disposition.

Therefore, you're not likely to see the point, made -- as stated -- with a bit of jocularity initially.

You assume much, my brother. And you posture much. And, as you often do when looking for a good debate, in this case you've also tried to superimpose your agenda on someone else's words to try to make your point.

No objective reading of my words or Cali's would conclude we "look to avoid confrontation when one is deserved," or that we don't "have the ability in (us), whether from a physical or mental disposition," to face a challenge that, in our judgment, "requires physical action." And you know it. Why you would choose to throw that out there is beyond me.

Well ... not completely. I actually know you. :)

I suppose, were I more like you and less like me, I might allow your "challenging" words here and the willfully condescending tone behind them to goad me into whipping mine out as well, and go at it with you on these pages. And hey, who knows, maybe if we really got into we could even end up exchanging addresses and agreeing to meet on the street somewhere. Purely in jest, of course, I'm sure ...

But, what do you know, I happen to be more like me than I am like you, and so, instead, I look around, remember you're my brother and colleague, a guy I like and respect, and a guy I know to love a good internet fight enough to throw just about anybody under the bus if it allows him an opportunity to stretch his message board muscle and perpetuate his on-line tough guy personna. So I know what you're doing.

Stop me when I hit a nerve. :)

You and I just have a different sense of the kinds of things we're willing to throw down over.

As you know quite well, my post was about the FULL measure of a man being more than possessing physical bravado. Oh, it has its place, to be sure, and I've had my run-ins and situations throughout my life. I just don't feel the need to talk about them much.

In the context of this specific discussion, as well as the broader real world, I admit I find it pretty amusing to see intelligent adults discounting the deeper meaning of being a man---not only being willing able to stand up for one's self when necessary, but also being willing and able to recognize those occasions when discretion and using one's brain instead of hat or jacket size is warranted---in the interest of projecting an image on the internet.

If you or anyone else reading this interprets that as some kind of weakness, so be it. I'm as comfortable in my skin as you are in yours. Just less vocal about it. :)

[UK Skins]

Reading that last post the expression "the pen is mightier than the sword" springs to mind.:)

[herrmag]

Damn Om....Well said.

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by bubba9497



:doh: act like you have some sense, really... my point was people act like he patrolling , with a lynch mob, harassing Innocent bystanders. :rolleyes:

think about it if you see a car like yours that was stolen, you wouldn't investigate.... something alerted his attention to those two... correct?

please get over yourself,

1. alleged gun

2. who knows where it came from

3. if he owns a gun, not far fetched he keeps in his car, or got it after he was alerted

just becaused you were tricked into buying FL. swamp land.... doesn't mean I'll be fooled into taking it

:laugh: :laugh:

Get over myself? That's classy.

Look, if you want to live in your make-believe world and make up stories, that's fine. But if you do, be prepared to handle the response.

Do you know they are not innocent bystanders? Do you know he was not patrolling? We are just going based on the reports and his dubious past.

Oh yeah, and the FACT that he was arrested for aggravated asault! Minor detail there.

H

[HailSkinz1]

A couple things strike me here. Based on what I have read, I'm assuming Taylor's actions were premeditated. Many are reading the same stories and assuming his actions were not premeditated. I think this is a key difference, but regardless, I think Taylor acted inappropriately, immaturely, and recklessly.

If Taylor was simply out with his friend and they came across the guys that stole his ATVs (by the way, does anyone know if he reported them stolen?), and he had his licensed gun, I can understand what some of you are saying. I might be tempted to pull the gun to get my ATVs back. I don't think I would, but I would be tempted.

The theory I'm ascribing to has Taylor calling his teenage buddy and going out to find the people who allegedly stole his ATVs. Once he finds someone with ATVs, he assumes they are his and initiates the confrontation. Then, he returns ten minutes later and continues the confrontation. At no time did he contact the police (and don’t' forget his dad is a Chief of Police and he was a Criminology major, so he knows what to do). I believe this based on his past. If Darrell Green were involved in this, I'd believe otherwise.

Since I think this was a premeditated act, I find his behavior completely unacceptable. However, if the first scenario is more accurate, I can understand the opposing viewpoint.

One last point - If someone breaks into my house or is on my property stealing something, yeah, I'm going to put a bullet in their @$$. If I see my stolen property somewhere, I'm calling the police with all the details.

H

[budski]

Geez,
I thought this thread was about Taylor's situation.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Om
In the context of this specific discussion, as well as the broader real world, I admit I find it pretty amusing to see intelligent adults discounting the deeper meaning of being a man---not only being willing able to stand up for one's self when necessary, but also being willing and able to recognize those occasions when discretion and using one's brain instead of hat or jacket size is warranted---in the interest of projecting an image on the internet.

Which is what I've been trying to say.....if what allegedly happened is what really happened, this is a circumstance in which Taylor should have used his brain rather than his gun. I disagree with Taylor's actions. I do, however, agree with Art (and you) that a little machismo is a necessity at times.

[Walking Deadman]

I wonder if Taylor had a gun ala Iverson (he didn't).....
anybody know if the men that Taylor and his accomplice "allegedly" assaulted were charged with theft?

I mean if the whole issue was 2 stolen ATV's, did the guys Taylor thought stole them get charged?

Again,
I have know clue how this pans out legally, but Taylor has made the Redskins look bad and owes some people a serious apology for being in that situation (guilty or not....same with the dropped DUI charges).

CALL YOUR COACH!!!!!

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1
(and don’t' forget his dad is a Chief of Police and he was a Criminology major, so he knows what to do)

People keep throwing this out there as if it is important (the Criminology major thing, not that his dad is C.O.P.) or relevant to the situation. The guy got a 10 on his wonderlic (or something really low like that). I'm not going to look it up, but I would bet money that his GPA was the minimum it needed to be to maintain his scholarship, and that he kept it that way with a little help here and there. And don't forget he came out as a junior, so he didn't even finish his degree.

I don't think brains really factor in to the equation for ST, unfortunately.

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by Tulane Skins Fan
jrockster, that's the worst advice ever. i hope you get your ass kicked at a bar sometime.

There are three types of people in the world, Tulane:

1) Bullies
2) People who let bullies push them around
3) People who don't let bullies push them around

Now I'm not saying that the resolution to every situation is physical, just that its necessary every once in awhile. As far as bar fights, I'll only risk getting into one if someone is being a total jerk and bullying someone I know around. Have you ever been out to a bar with a girl (just a friend) and had some guy just not leave her alone? Grabbing her, pushing all up on her? If you did, what did you do about it? Call the police?

[Mooney]

Originally posted by jrockster77
I'm not saying that the resolution to every situation is physical, just that its necessary every once in awhile.


Agree 100%.

[gillherb]

Art, when did you turn into the big man on campus?

I do want to compliment you first, because you always make sound arguments.

However, I think you are very wrong on the soccer deal, soccer is extremely rough when being played on a high level, as is basketball. If played by amateurs, basketball is a dainty sport, too. I've played games of basketball where you hardly even touch an opponent. Needless to say, it sucked.

-gillherb

[herrmag]

Originally posted by jrockster77


Have you ever been out to a bar with a girl (just a friend) and had some guy just not leave her alone? Grabbing her, pushing all up on her?


No. Have you? If so, I suggest you stop going to a bar like that. If that happened at a bar that I go to, the following would occur:

1. My g/f (or friend, whichever you choose) would probably slap the monkey ***** out of the dude doing it.

2. Assuming that she was finished with him, a bouncer/manager would drag his ass out of the bar.

I might yell at the guy and get between him and the girl, but come to blows over it? He'd have to do something REALLY stupid for that to happen.

Perhaps your career doesn't matter to you, but mine does. If I get arrested for ANYTHING, I'm losing my security clearance, and I'm looking for a new, lower paying job. Unfortunately, I can't afford the defense lawyers that ST can to get me the not guilty verdict.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1


Get over myself? That's classy.

Look, if you want to live in your make-believe world and make up stories, that's fine. But if you do, be prepared to handle the response.

Do you know they are not innocent bystanders? Do you know he was not patrolling? We are just going based on the reports and his dubious past.

Oh yeah, and the FACT that he was arrested for aggravated asault! Minor detail there.

H

arrested on the statements of two guys who alegedly thefts, and shot at Taylor...... how do we know it's true....the police are saying so..... same as with Taylor.. but only Taylor is guilty :rolleyes: I mean these two "salts of the earth" are also part of an investagation in another car theft according to reports... but hey lets defend their rights... lets not jump to conclussions about these poor victims.... I mean we must keep the old double standards going.

How many athletes are wrongly accused/ arrested of wrong doings? (Allen Iverson, Michael Irvin, to name a few) But we are positive Taylor is guilty :rolleyes:

Where exactly in Taylors past proves criminal behavior? well .....

Not returning Coach Gibbs Calls... hell he is Public enemy #1 :rolleyes: (which 90% of this hatered toward Taylor is really about)


Many have tried, and convicted Taylor, act like they know exactly what happened, (and my favorite) they use his "past" as proof positive as evidence of his guilt. Even though his past has no known history of criminal behavior, or violence (off the football field)...

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by herrmag


No. Have you? If so, I suggest you stop going to a bar like that. If that happened at a bar that I go to, the following would occur:

1. My g/f (or friend, whichever you choose) would probably slap the monkey ***** out of the dude doing it.

You're right, some of the girls I know would slap the ***** out of the guy to and handle it themselves (including my ex-girlfriend, who studied kick-boxing and probably would have taken it a step further). Some girls won't though. A lot of girls wouldn't.


2. Assuming that she was finished with him, a bouncer/manager would drag his ass out of the bar.

That's what you'd like to think, but a lot of times there are not enough bouncers, they can't get there quick enough, or as Art said, the bouncers are pansies. Or sometimes, there just aren't any bouncers at a particular bar at a particular time.


I might yell at the guy and get between him and the girl, but come to blows over it? He'd have to do something REALLY stupid for that to happen.

I'm not saying come to blows....if you read my post before, the point is to simply put yourself between the guy and the girl; usually they will slither away without resorting to violence. And if does go that far, the aforementioned bouncers will vouch for you 99% of the time if you are protecting a girl, meaning you will not get arrested. They also know who the jackasses in a bar are, and will get your back most of the time.


Perhaps your career doesn't matter to you, but mine does. If I get arrested for ANYTHING, I'm losing my security clearance, and I'm looking for a new, lower paying job. Unfortunately, I can't afford the defense lawyers that ST can to get me the not guilty verdict.

I'm a graduate student, so I suppose I have more leniency than you do, but I am on a federally funded fellowship, so getting arrested is probably not the smartest thing to do. But I try not to put my own well-being in front of those in need. But I hear what you're saying....

[Art]

Om,

I'd decided to throw it out there for a very simple reason. Despite clear words, people continue to suggest I'm saying the use of a gun is the sign of a man. And, in fact, many have said openly, or hinted, that confrontation does need to be avoided.

In fact, I've read, re-read, and read again your post, and I can't see in it what you say here. But, let's try to remember what we've said first, shall we?


All I'm going to add to this is that I seem to have a somewhat different idea of what being a "man" is than some of you.

To me, being a man means knowing when to use judgment and discretion in a given situation instead of machismo and bravado.

Being a man means being able to recognize when a situation stops being about image, street cred or ego, and becomes about using your head to consider the possible ramifications ... even while passions run high.

Being a man is being secure enough in your manhood to be able to walk away from a situation where your discretion and BRAIN tells you you have far more to potentially lose than can possibly be gained by acting like real life is a middle school playground.

Being a man means understanding the difference between projecting toughness, and acting like a grown up.

A "man" can differentiate between standing up for a worthy cause, and possibly throwing away a future for nothing more than what sounds like insecurity about whether one's peers will think them a man.

Sean Taylor is a tough guy. But to my way of thinking, he's got a long way to go before I'm going to call him a complete man.

Where in this post is it hinted at, or stated, that you understand there is a very appropriate time for being physical as part of being a man? As it doesn't exist, you ought not spend a great deal of time looking.

In response, what did I say?

Where you suggest I superimpose my agenda on the words of others to make a point, I point again to the fact that what you say later in this thread isn't matched with earlier in any way. Yet, you suggest no objective reasoning could conclude a complete absence of a thought there was a complete absence OF.

Silly.

Where I said, specifically, this doesn't mean you or Cali are wimps, and I could be wrong in my assessment, you counter with absolute statements, that despite knowledge of me, that it's "message board muscle" or an "internet persona" I'm attempting to perpetuate.

So, I say to you directly, Om, my brother and collegue, if you and I were standing tall to fight, who do you think would win? :)

I, too, know you, and, love you dearly.

But, knowing each other as we do, let's be fair here. Which of us is dead on right in assessing the other is not ready for prime time when it comes to the physical side of life? I have no doubt you are a challenge to me verbally and mentally. Perhaps you are even my superior there. Especially at this moment when I've had a wee bit too much to drink :).

But, we both know, in the OTHER area of life, you would do everything in your considerable verbal power to prevent a confrontation with me. That's not me puffing up any persona. That's a fact :).

It's not a negative against you, or a positive for me. It's just what it is. There are those men among us I would not dare to challenge physically either. Each of us is overmatched in ways we can do little about. Recognition of that is key to be sure.

The fact that you DO know me makes me wonder why you'd suspect there's any image at all that's being projected. Given cause, I'd pull you aside and tell you that silence is a virtue you would need to embrace rapidly.

The truth is, you'd embrace the holy heck out of it in such a case :). Please don't say this is untrue, or I will be rather concerned with your capacity for truth :).

I'd still love you like a brother, which, is yet another factor of being a man if we're going to create a full picture. The ability to argue, cuss and fight with a brother and still BE brothers. For the first time, EVER, on this board, I think given what you know about me, it would be YOU who has had a nerve touched and not the other way around.

Worse, for the first time on this board, I think you have attempted to paint a false picture to prop yourself up in a way you couldn't do in person. This is not all that upsetting, save for the fact that I get the impression if we ever HAD to go further than just whipping it out to see who's is bigger, you'd hold it against me while I was sitting at the bar with your cold beer at the ready.

What I think bothers you is the fact that you DO know me, so you have a hard time placing who you know me to be with who others might know me to be. I will grant you they are very different men. I even like one better than the other.

But, one of us can be both men. One of us can't. Which is why I think I'm absolutely fine with just about anything you say :).

[Art]

Originally posted by gillherb
Art, when did you turn into the big man on campus?

I do want to compliment you first, because you always make sound arguments.

However, I think you are very wrong on the soccer deal, soccer is extremely rough when being played on a high level, as is basketball. If played by amateurs, basketball is a dainty sport, too. I've played games of basketball where you hardly even touch an opponent. Needless to say, it sucked.

-gillherb

Gill,

If you've experienced dainty basketball you're not doing it right :). I'll try to teach you :).

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by jrockster77


Art, does your wallet say "Bad Motherf*cker" on it?

I have nothing to add to this thread other than this is a picture of my wallet:

http://img79.exs.cx/img79/6784/badmother.jpg

[brooksfb]

Originally posted by Art


:). Calling the police is for soccer players :).



I don't play soccer but, I must respectfully disagree.
If you are confronted with a spontaneous situation (such as in a bar where there's a fool who's hell bent on kicking your ass) you have only two choices. Fight or tuck tail and run. IMO, even taking an ass whooping is better than running but this is not my point.
In a situation where you're are not in direct confrontation with your adversary, there is time to think about the consequences of your actions. Your $tatu$ relative to the situation should determine your actions. "What do I stand to gain or lose?" If you have nothing, you lose nothing. Conversly, if there is a chance that you could come out on the short end of your planned retaliation, then calling the police is a very reasonable option.

[Westbrook36]

Art, I went back and read this thread and seriously, big guy, you are one of my 3 favorite posters on here but you need to get over yourself. I seen a picture of you and you are a big dude. Don't confuse yourself with McCune though if you know what I mean. ;)

In your last response to Om, you threw it out there no less than 4 times that if it came down to it, you could kick his ass. Serious man, are you kidding me? Surely you jest. In a normal society, people don't let it be known to others that they can beat the other person up. That's the kind of thing that the big kid in junior high does.....until someone kicks his behind, that is. ;)

To respond to the point, I'm not fighting anyone. ANYONE. You know why? Because I know for a fact that in any confrontation I could have with anyone willing to get into an altercation with me, I HAVE THE MOST TO LOSE. Period. There is no other way for me to sum it up. It might sound like what the putz in HS said but I'll stand by it. I have more to lose. I've built my life through hard work up to this point. One bad mistake would ruin my life. Nothing that can happen with some moron in real life would be satisfying or fulfilling enough for it to be worth it to beat someone up.

I've been in many fights, am trained in various forms of martial arts to end someone's life, yet I will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS look like a punk and walk away if I had to unless it was to protect myself of my family/close friend.

It's part of the growing up process. At some point, you have to stop thinking that you get some props by telling people you can beat them up......especially on a damn internet message board. Get a hold of yourself man!!! :D

[fansince62]

westbrook36...glad to hear your willingness to defend cherished values will always take a back seat to self interest unless life and limb are in immediate peril! Understandable...but not worthy of any great applause.

by the standard I see voiced by many in this thread - independent of the ST situation - there is no imperative to resort to physical means when OTHERS are threatened. How deliciously situational!

[Om]

Art,

I'm way too busy today to respond fully to your post ... but perhaps that's a good thing. If people have actually read the words I've written here, and not just your interpretation of them, I'm more than comfortable enough letting things stand as they are.

Love you, man.

[wskin44]

Originally posted by jrockster77


There are three types of people in the world, Tulane:

1) Bullies
2) People who let bullies push them around
3) People who don't let bullies push them around



:doh: Maybe in your world Jrock, but not in mine.

[iheartskins]

Just thought I'd say the legal standard, such as what I've studied here in the d*** Bar/Bri review program is that one is not entitled to use deadly force in self defense unless deadly force is threatened. Deadly force is never permissible in the defense of property, but it can be in the defense of one's dwelling house. Finally, one is allowed to use ordinary force, if there is a threat of ordinary force forthcoming.

[/study dump]

[jrockster21]

Originally posted by wskin44


:doh: Maybe in your world Jrock, but not in mine.

Groovy.

Just sharing what I've learned in my short 25 years of life. Its a broad generalization to be sure, but at the most basic level, those are the three categories of people. Just my humble opinion!

[Reaganaut]

Well, there is a very reasonable explanation for him not calling the police in the first place and for him taking matters into his own hands. That reasonable explanation is he's a man. Society no longer finds that as reasonable as it once was, of course, and, certainly, we have NO IDEA what happened that night so we don't know if this is an area you could even find Taylor somewhat admirable for trying to deal with a problem like a man or not.

Where I usually find myself agreeing with Art on things... alas. A man will stand up for himself in a dangerous situation. This was nothing of the sort. Stolen ATV's are NOTHING NOTHING NOTHING to a guy like Taylor. They're insured. He drops that much in a half hour in Vegas.

If someone were threatening his baby or other loved one then fine, brandish a gun and kick ass. But stolen property? Get a grip. Potentially LOSE YOUR LIFE OVER ATV"S that isn't what a man would do. He's a pu$$y. Plain and simple.

Personally, I would have handed over the names of these guys to some Miami boosters and let them get my ATV's back. Call Tony Montana.... "say helloa to my little friend."

A millionaire going after a couple thiefs... what a joke.

[wskin44]

I rarely witness bully type behavior so I guess we just live in different neighborhoods. Come on over and we'll have some beer and I'll cook you a steak. I know lot's of folks whose first instinct is to give rather than to take.

[Tarhog]

This thread has gone straight to hell.

The problem with macho is, sometimes, the macho guy gets gutted from behind. The knowledge that you would have pummelled someone in a fair fight will be cold comfort when you're on the floor looking at your intestines, or someone shoots your wife when they were aiming at you.

Humans aren't evolutions greatest success story by accident. And its not because of brawn.

[zoony]

Originally posted by Tarhog
This thread has gone straight to hell.


Yes it has.


Humans aren't evolutions greatest success story by accident. And its not because of brawn.

(nothing to add... just wanted to see that printed one more time)

[TK]

Originally posted by jrockster77


Art, does your wallet say "Bad Motherf*cker" on it?
Anyone catch Samuel L. Jackson on the MTV Movie Awards saying that his name wasn't Master Windu, but he did indeed own a lightsaber with the initials "B.M.F." engraved in it?