OT: Don't want to pay extra? Then push away from the table sooner than later!

[TheKurp]

Too fat? (http://www.washtimes.com/business/20020619-692750.htm)

I applaud Southwest Airline's move here. If people don't want to control their eating habits then there should be a price to pay when their obesity infringes on the rest of the population.

Nothing pisses me off more (well maybe a few things do) than when I have to adjust and/or accomodate for someone who is just flat out glutenous.

EAT A SALAD!

[wildbill]

Here's an idea. Why not make seats larger and planes hold fewer people instead of charging "larger" people for two seats. Now I'm far from obese, but at 6'3" 230 I don't fit comfortable in the seats.

What's next...Pregnant women getting charged double also?


This is a crock, make larger seats.

Oh, and eating a salad isn't going to help all people. In fact, I wouldn't feel healthy wieghing under 220. So i guess since I'm a little bigger than most people i should feel obligated to pay double from now on no matter what I do.

And while we're at it, why not charge people extra if they use the restroom more than once a flight. man do i hate having to get up and move out of someone elses way so they can release themselves.

[Buford]

I don't think an Airline needs to make their seats bigger because our country is fully of overweight people.

What if in Japan they say "these seats are too big, we need more seats on the planes...not bigger but fewer seats!"

Seriously, these plans fly internationally at times. Overweight people need to worry about their health before a double ticket.

[gbear]

Forget width. At 6'4" I want more leg room. You can sandwich me in 8 to a row, just give me space to put my legs out. It's hell flying when I don't get an exit row seat or bulkhead seat.

At 205 lbs, It's not like I'm a small guy either. A bigger seat would certainly be nice.

Now my biggest question is how they are going to be able to go about charging people double for 2 seats. How many seats are bought online without an agent ever seeing the flyer? I have to say if I bought a ticket, showed up, and then had them try to charge me double, I would be livid.

[TheKurp]

Bigger seats mean fewer seats. Fewer seats means less income for the airlines. Less income means higher ticket prices. Again I pay for someone else who cannot control their weight.

[JackC]

Think of the midgets, half fare for them.

They are screeming for smaller seats and than maybe you would be the one asking for extra space. No normal American male fits comfortably in airline seats. Eat a steak shrimp!

[wildbill]

I would just like to see their standards are as to what is considered to be too big.

I can't wait till they start telling the men and women who serve that they're too large and need to purchase an extra seat. Especially since Uncle Sam is paying the bill.Then the taxpayers will complain about military spending. By all means, give me an extra seat.

But don't dare give that single mom an extra seat so her baby(under 2) has somewhere to sit even though she didn't pay for the ticket. Anyone whose flown enough has seen that happen a time or two. I really don't have a problem with it. My question is, where does it stop.

[Kilmer17]

There is no way to punish overweight people without also charging people who are big but not fat. This ultimately will lead to a lawsuit, which the airlines will lose. Too many variables. Where do you cut off the weight limit? What if a person is under the weight but has an *** the size of Wisconsin? What if a person weighs300 lbs but is 6ft 10 inches tall?

What about smelly people? Or screaming kids? Or the annoying guy that always wants to talk? Or the lady wearing enough perfume to choke a small nation?

[Kilmer17]

BTW, Midgets should fly for 1/2 price. So should naked supermodels.

[Park City Skins]

Hey Kilmer! You'd charge a naked supermodel? :silly:

[Kilmer17]

good point

[Blondie]

Question: How will the airline know if they should charge for an extra seat? When you make a reservation, will they ask your height and weight? Calculate from there? This is ludicrous.

I agree with Kilmer17...I don't want to sit by a smelly person, although I wear perfume.....I haven't drowned a small nation yet.

;)

Texas Blondie

[Park City Skins]

Question to ask as well is what about those who suffer from Obesity? Not someone who has eaten their way into being "large", but someone who is Obese?. This could potentially penalize someone for having a medical condition. Now wouldn't that just open up a new can of worms. Say for instance, those who are overweight due other medical conditions.

[TheKurp]

When you make a reservation you're charged for a single ticket. When you arrive at the ticket counter or the gate the airline representative will determine whether the size of your @ss will take up more than one seat, thereby robbing the person sitting next to them the full seat they paid for.

It works two ways folks. Why should a normal size person be forced to occupy less than the entire seat that they paid FULL PRICE for because the obese person next to them takes up more than a full seat?

[Kilmer17]

Who gets to decide what's normal?

[Park City Skins]

That and how do you define normal?

[Kilmer17]

I agree that this is a problem and a nuisance. But there has to be a better answer than this. There is no way in hell this survives a legal challenge. What would be next? Charging a person by weight before they go to an all you can eat buffet?

[TheKurp]

"Normal" is a person who occupies no more than the size of the seat. If you occupy more than that you have four choices:

1. Buy 2 seats
2. Fly First Class (the seats are larger)
3. Choose an airline whose seats are larger
4. Drive

[Kilmer17]

How is it measured?

Do they have scales at the gate? How would that affect extremely tall people?

Do they have the gate agents wrap a measuring tape ariound someones bulbous arse?

What if the plane isnt 100% full? Do the fatties get to have the second seat grattis? And if not, does the airline make sure noone uses those empty seats to put their laptop or extra bag?

[Brave]

I can't imagine this holding up in court. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

I'll have to call my brother-in-law in Houston who is both a captain for Southwest Airlines AND a lawyer (yes, he is driven). If he can't shine some light on the legality of this thing ... no one can.

[Larry]

I thought this thread was about Sam Adams' signing bonus.

One thing about this policy that isn't getting mentioned everywhere: The charge only applies if, when the passengers begin seating, one passenger can't fit in one seat, and another passenger has to be bumped to make room. (If there's an unsold seat on the plane, then no charge).

My only problem is: the guy who gets bumped should be the person who can't fit in one seat, and didn't tell the airline about it in advance. If the fat (OK, loaded word. But it's shorter than some "more sensitive" one) guy wants to not risk getting bumped, then he should buy two tickets in advance, giving the airline time to plan for his need. (If Southwest wants to have a plan where people who're close to the limit can buy two tickets, and then get a refund if the plane doesn't sell out, then that sounds like a very accomodating solution).

As to who does or doesn't get charged: I think a simple standard is: If the passenger can fit in the seat without raising the armrest, then that's good enough. (If that makes his trip uncomfortable, then he can chose between comfort and cheap).

[Park City Skins]

Agreed Brave. it would be interesting to hear what that driven brother of yours has to say. Seems his expertise covers both subjects. I'm still having trouble with charging someone extra for a medical condition.

[TheKurp]

Southwest was already taken to court some years ago by an obese passenger who was forced to pay for two seats. The courts dismissed the suit because the policy was not found to be discrimminatory based on the criteria for discrimmination.

The Dept. of Transportation does not object to airlines charging "large" passengers for 2 seats.

If the plane isn't full, passengers who were forced to pay for an additional seat may apply for a refund.

[The Evil Genius]

Of course it doesnt help that the seats having gotten smaller over the years while American have gotten bigger.

This appears to be more an issue over profits than it does customer service. Southwest wants to continue to cramp people in (small, average, big) rather than acknowledge that airlines have been packed tighter than sardine cans.

[The Evil Genius]

Here's another question - if Southwest has the special of "Friends Fly Free" - can a extremely large person have his other side (and I am not talking about his wife) as that friend?

Just wondering.

[wildbill]

That's what I'm screaming EG.If the airlines weren't trying to fit so many people in too small spaces this wouldn't even be brought up. But instead of fixing the problem with the airlines, their covering their arses and charging "large" people an additional fee.

[TheKurp]

I just measured my @ss sitting down. :moon: From cheek-to-cheek I measure 14 inches across.

If your @ss is larger than 19 inches across then you might not want to fly Southwest Airlines. Your choice.

[Buford]

How about they charge you per seat?


If the big dude next to me is halfway in my seat and crushing me because he's just "too big" then I shouldn't be paying for the part of my seat he's using. He should either buy that seat so his rear can find on everything he's paying for....OR....he should buy a 1st class seat and still be too big.

[redman]

Originally posted by JackC
No normal American male fits comfortably in airline seats. Eat a steak shrimp! I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs, and I have no trouble sitting in an airline seat. Like everyone else, it'd be nice to be able to stretch my legs, and on longer flights, I have to get up to do so. But that's a true statement for darn near every chair. My only real complaints come when people in front of me put their chair back, which usually means that they hit my knees if I don't position them just correctly. That stinks, but that's airline travel. I don't happen to think that I have a constitutional right to absolute comfort everywhere I go in public.

In truth, I'm torn about this issue. On the one hand, it's about time that the airline recognize that there are certain situations when square pegs - passengers - won't fit into round holes. But this seems like about the most roundabout way to go about this. And there seems to be no objective standard for it. Do you go by inches around the waist? What part of the waist? I've seen people who have relatively small waists, and HUGE butts. Do you go by sheer weight? What if someone's got very broad shoulders, or is just large but not obese?

And why not make them buy three seats? After all, if you're sitting properly in your chair, aren't you spilling over into both seats adjoining yours? Or would you have someone straddle two seats for the entire flight.

The solution comes from the airlines removing some seats - it doesn' t have to be many - from their planes so that larger people can sit in special rows. You're only talking about maybe 5% of the passengers here. They'll also have to pay more, which is perfectly fair.

But the airlines will also have to make adjustments on the seats in their international flights, IMHO. More legroom and fewer seats for those longer flights.

[Awgustlab]

Why should the airlines spend buttloads of money changing the seat sizes in all their planes, when a simple solution is to simply have the fat person buy an extra seat for his/her ***? When a large person buys an airline ticket, I would think they know fully well in advance that the trip is going to be uncomfortable fitting into that one seat. I am sure fat people have a complex already about boarding flights and not being able to fit into one seat. I would!! Just buy the damn extra ticket and if the flight isn't full, Southwest already said the passenger would be refunded after the flight.

Don't give me this "medical condition" bull, either. Yeah, maybe for some but I see more heavy people at McDonalds Super Sizing it than at the Souper Salad.

[fansince62]

none of you wideloads better be sittin in front of me when i go to skins games!!!!!!!

[Awgustlab]

www.jennycraig.com

[laurent]

Ok, I just read the article and it's time to retract what I said earlier.. WTF?!?

"The airline, which operates out of 58 U.S. cities and is the largest carrier at Baltimore-Washington International Airport, will begin charging "persons of size" for two seats if they think they may not fit comfortably in one."

Does anyone see what's wrong with this picture? "Persons of size" and "(that)may not fit comfortably in one" sounds extremely vague to me and the first thing that shot through my mind was "wait at 6'5" 250lbs I have never been able to fit in airplane seats comfortably."

Of course I thought they could not possibly refer to tall people until I came across this.

"All people who are too large to fit in one seat, not just the obese, are included in the Southwest policy, Mrs. Turneabe-Connelly said."

Ummm, sure. :puke:

[DaFunky1]

Being a LA (lard @ss), I see some problems. My shoulders are wider than my hips even when sitting down. I flew Midway a few years back. My shoulder was up against the window and my other should was actually partly on the other guys back rest. Maybe they should have paid me extra for the discomfort of having such small seats? My car had a bigger bucket seat than the one in the airplane.

I was considerably smaller then.

I like many of you am torn, why should I being fat, not be required to pay extra?

Will they use the BMI chart to be more specific. 5'11" 190 by the BMI is considered obese. Maybe they can have a seat by the check in, similar to what they measure carry on bags with, to measure the size of my can? I know I wouldn't want that embarassment. My weight is a combination of many factors... injury, poor diet and lack of exercise. Should you pay for my size? NO! I have no qualms with the argument. If I am in my seat, and my backside isn't in the one next too me, who cares if I am comfortable... all of me gets there at the same time so I don't care if I am uncomfortable.

If they will just look at me and say "well he is too big" without some quantitative measure then I think there will be lawsuits and most likely SW airlines will lose, especially in our blame the other guy society.

Just my .02 cents

Peace

[rtandler]

Originally posted by Kilmer17
BTW, Midgets should fly for 1/2 price.

Or maybe even less if they fit into the overhead luggage compartments:D

[MikeB]

The argument for making larger seats is just plain ignorant. If you have been paying any attention to the economy of late, you would be able to deduce that if each plane flies less paying passengers, the airlines would need even more 150 million dollar bailout packages from the government. It just can't be done. You run a company to make profit, not lose it.

As for how you would determine if someone pays for an additional seat, it's simple. If they are rolling into the adjacent seat, they buy that seat. Arguments about tall passengers and short passengers don't bear any relevance here. If you are tall or short you are not inconveniencing other passengers.

Now a possible solution would be to have a row or two of seats that have larger dimensions, and you would pay more for them. So you wouldn't get stuck paying for two seats, but you would pay more for your seat than a normal size seat. This would keep the prices down for the average consumer and only affect those that required the extra space, while at the same time allowing the airlines to make a profit.

[Larry]

I keep thinking some airline is going to decide to compete in the arena of better service (as opposed to whatever's cheapest).

Unfortunately, a good chunck of airline money comes from business (and government) travel. And too many businesses are run by the accounting department (or people of similar persuasion). (Which I think is a mistake. I tend to believe that businesses should treat employees better, because being nice is cheaper than paying them to put up with crap. But, it's just an opinion).

[MikeB]

At what cost? If they give you better service (in this case meaning more seat room, for one) than where do they recoup that money from? Do they hire less mechanics to inspect and work on the planes? Where does that money come from???

[rtandler]

Calm down, MikeB. There are federal regulations that mandate that you have sufficient mechanics to keep the plane safe.

In addition, it doesn't cost all that much more to provide good service. It's more a matter of instilling an attitude than spending a buch of money. A really smart airline organization would spend a little more to proveide great service and then charge just a few bucks more a ticket to more than make up for the slight additional cost.

[The Diesel]

I don't understand what all the fuss is about. They're talking about extremely obese people here. They just have to couch it in terms like "people who cannot comfortably fit" because they can't come out and say...

"If you got a *really* big, fat ***** you might have to buy another ticket for your excess cellulite, being as it may end up rolling over into your neighbor's seat and nobody should have to wrestle with your fat folds for a three hour flight just because you can't put down them ho-ho's, twinkies, and that bacon double cheeseburger combo Super Sized with the biggie fries and a milkshake for five minutes to get off your lazy, big, fat ***** and take a stroll around the block or something once in a while and get some excercise rather than just sittin' around all damn day stuffing your face and watchin' Ofrah..."

You can see how an honest statement of the policy, such as this, could lead to even more criticism of the airline. I think Southwest is just trying to be diplomatic with their words and I, for one, applaud them for the move.

[Art]

This is certainly a feisty thread :).

Kurp,

While I applaud your vigor here, I think the fact is, we're not just talking about people so fat that they fall over into other seats here. We're talking about anyone over 6-2 really, or who has long legs. You say you pay for your space, and that space includes leaning your seat back. When the airlines refuse my repeated requests to get an exit row or bulkhead and put me in the cramped normal seats, there's no way you can lean back with me behind you.

At 6-5, 240, I can fit within the arm rests of a seat. What I can not do is fit within the length of a typical seat with my knees hitting the back of the person in front. So, while I don't like fat people on planes either, I have to say that the airlines could limit some of the problems here by simply releasing bulkhead and exit row seats when a larger person is asking for one.

[Dirk Diggler]

Art

6'5" 240? How are your pass rush skills? I think the Smith, Wynn, Leverette, Mills rotation would be our best since '91 !!!!

Dirk

[Art]

Depends Dirk,

I'm a little lighter now for football than I like. I'm going to move back up to 270 or so because that's my best rugby weight. And then, I'm more a center than an end I fear. Though, I'd play fullback too if the Rock would make room :).

[Zen-like Todd]

Guys who are whining in this thread... stop. If you can't fit in one seat, and take up two, you pay for it. No one cares if you are fat, incredibly well muscled, or have Popeye Jones ears that stick out five feet from your head. It is not acceptable for you to encroach with rolls of fat or whatever you've got hanging over the headrest into the space of the person sitting next to you.

Art's complaint is different and far more valid. And as someone who gets annoyed without coming anywhere near 6'5, I feel his pain, because its totally preventable.

[Kilmer17]

Another what if,

What if a man is too big for his seat, BUT his wife takes up less than hers. Can they share the difference without airline approval or will the lardass still be charged double?

[Zen-like Todd]

..or... what if there's a section of the plane for people who like to be smooshed up against the window by really heavy people. A fetish type thing.

[gbear]

Kilmer,

That's wht my girlfriend and I usually do. My legs are in the back of the seat in front of me without them reclining. Anytime I can't get exit row seats, I usually just sit next to my girlfriend and put the legs in her leg area. Thus, I am not fitting in one person's area. There's no way I'm paying for that though.

And when they say fit in one person's space, do my knees preventing the person in front of me from reclining count as taking their space? It's not like they CAN recline. With under 12% body fat, I'd say I'm anything but overweight.

[Kilmer17]

Exactly what I do with my wife.

Im not disagreeing that there is a problem. But I dont see how this solves it. Way too many variables.

[Art]

TCO,

I don't think people are whining. I think the way Southwest has phrased the policy, it is open to be held in effect for taller people as well as overweight people. And, while I don't believe in a fat gene because if you are only eating 2000 calories and if you exercise, the fat gene can't hurt you, I do believe in a tall gene. This policy, on its face, is discriminatory against people who were born taller than the average height. Unless the airline clarifies this by talking specifically to the obese, it is a policy that is bound to be a problem for the airline in time.

[The Evil Genius]

I think its those damn liberals again who are against airlines making a buck. I mean airlines are a business right? They should be able to make their own rules right?

I mean - whats next - they will want to insure that even large people don't get discriminated against? :rolleyes: *sarcasm*

Oh yeah - I forget - by repeatedly accepting money from the federal government, airlines now have to follow what the federal government tells them.

[Art]

EG,

Are you so smarting from the discovery that you are a screaming liberal, that you have to bring in left and right to each discussion from here on? I realize it is easy and generally correct to blame the left for most of this country's ills -- including forest fires which, if the right was allowed to properly maintain a forest and remove the undergrowth as we've tried and been refused by left wing power groups that believe racking up a leaf is an affront to nature -- but, honestly, step back and try to debate each idea on the merits of it and not your political leanings.

And, yes, the forest fire thing was an unfair button pusher :).

[The Evil Genius]

Art,

What in the hell are you talking about? You lost me on your hate spew there. Perhaps you need to take off the white robe and talk a little clearer.

[The Evil Genius]

Just kidding :)

I was just noting that people tend to agree, liberal or conservative, when their rights are being taken away. As you have Art with the liberals who want to protect the rights of the disabled (or the large, obese, etc.).

[Zen-like Todd]

So what, kids who are too short can't ride certain rides at the amusement parks. Big deal.

As long as there is a valid reason behind discriminating based on a certain characteristic, it doesnt bother me. I don't really dig how the term discrimination gets bandied about nowadays (this is just a general rant). Universities discriminate. If you are an idiot, you don't get into an Ivy League school. That's discrimination, and its not a bad thing.

Airplanes have weight and volume constraints. The bigger you are, the more you cost the airline to ship. Oh well, such are the laws of physics.

If I was larger, stronger, and more coordinated, I'd be in the NFL. I should sue them for discrimination, apparently.

[Kilmer17]

The problem is the rule itself, it's the enforcement of the rule.

They have not posted any tangible rules in which to follow, leaving the decision at the discretion of the gate agents.

[Art]

TCO,

I think your thoughts are strong but perhaps a little over the top. The airlines are not a private business. They are a governmentally supported industry. If we were talking about a completely private industry, I'd probably tend to agree that despite being born taller than most, I have no ability to complain, other than with where my dollar goes, about an airline policy that doesn't account for me.

But, as the airlines do take money from me as a taxpayer, then the issue changes. As it is impossible to help being born taller than most, the equity here is a bit different than the equity you are discussing. While I'm loathe to cry discrimination in most things, the fact is, that as long as airlines take government money, they are going to have a problem enforcing "larger person" rules when it comes to taller folks because they can't categorize based on a genetic trait anymore than they could based upon a religious or ethnic trait. As a taller person who has long been irritated by movie theater seating (though not now as it rocks) and other less accomodating venues, I can say that the first time Southwest tries to charge extra because I was born and grew into a 6-5 male, then, they'll have problems.

Now, we all know the intent of the policy is to charge fat wide bodies so, it's unlikely I'll ever be so targeted, but, the policy's wording is such that it is problematic on its face.

[Om]

"R.O.U.S.'s? Riders Of Unusual Size? I don't think they exist."

[Ryman of the North]

OK I WAS GOING TO LET IT SLIDE BUT HERE IS MY TAKE!
At 6-4 and 290 my *** fits easily however the width of my shoulders generally takes up the seat im in as well as about half of the next if i ask for an aisle seat and get it no prob but when the friggin tards put me in the middle seat i probablyfeel less pity for my seatmates i dont think that paying extra should be that big a deal but lets be real here who here would rather be squished a little bit thgan stunk out of your seat lets institute a hygiene tax!

and no naked supermodels should never be charged!

[Park City Skins]

"But in the meantime, rest well. Dream of large women."


:cheers:

[Art]

EG,

Most people of all political beliefs agree that discrimination based upon a genetic or religious trait is improper. It is not a liberal that is attempting to protect my rights. Certain beliefs are without political leaning. It is wrong to discriminate on the basis of the traits a person is born with or the traits a person acquires through a religious selection.

All people fight for this. The difference between the liberal and the conservative tends to be that the liberal likewise fights for characteristics that are not born to a person or part of a religious belief system. Liberals will fight for the overweight here, where, they should be teaching the overweight to eat less. Liberals will fight for the homosexual as some type of genetic minority deserving of special rights. Liberals will defend the right of a long-hair to work at a place of business that requires short hair.

The problem with liberals is they have taken the fight for people's rights to mean that anything a person desires is a right where conservatives tend to believe how a person is born or how a person prays is worth protecting, but choices that lead to inconvenience are not as worthwhile.

So, as much as you'd like to believe it is not so, conservatives are equally as concerned with basic human rights as liberals. We just don't believe in making all human weakness a basic right.