Andy Reid better than Gibbs?

[Thinking Skins]

I was listening to Sirrius Radio today in my car and they finally were talking about the Redskins. After a few calls from people, an Eagles fan called in and spoke about Reid, particularly how
- Reid has handled things this offseason compared to Gibbs;
- He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;
- that Reid has a successful program in Philly;
- that Reid was better at adjusting his offense, whereas Gibbs just gave up last year;

I wanted to call in and just profanely denounce these statements, but I had already called in once and the show was about to end. So I just called my dad and we had a good laugh.

[Art]

I kind of give Andy Reid a lot of credit for opening up the Philly offense this year and seeming to really try catering to McNabb's strengths more. But, this is something he FINALLY did after years of showing an odd unwillingness to adjust much at all.

Reid is not a coach known for his ability to adjust his offense. He largely ran the same structured system for years in Philly until last year when he finally opened it up and became a really dangerous group.

Gibbs was known for adjustments both in games, in seasons and between years. It's why he could win with Riggins and the Posse. Last year Gibbs didn't give up. He simply broke things down to their most elemental level. He demanded the players do SOMETHING well and repeat it, before putting more back in. He did this after constant mistakes were found to be killing us.

So, he put the offense into the basic elements and built from there. One reason most of us were so encouraged with the second Eagles game in particular is because as unimaginative as that offense was in the game, there was a toughness and sense of purpose we haven't seen from the Redskins in a very long time.

Gibbs also showed great skill dealing with the players last year by convincing even the most unhappy to sit quiet through their displeasure instead of airing it. I don't put too much stock in people worrying about Gibbs' ability to deal with personalities.

No matter what he does as a coach, his ability as a human being will only improve.

[bubba9497]

so how many Super Bowl trophies does Reid have?

[Thinking Skins]

Man, I'm tempted to take away half of Reid's wins cause he did it at a time when the whole NFC East was rebuilding and such. And to open it up even more, the whole NFC is pretty lame right now. So he had the ability to beat teams when they were at their worse.

Gibbs had to go through the NFC when it was in its HAYDAY. He was a part of that 15 year run of all NFC Super Bowl Champs. I wonder how many teams that Reid faced that actually went over .500 the last 4 years.

[Kilmer]

I won't knock Andy Reid, he is obviously a really good coach. But he has not even come close yet to the accomplishments Gibbs has had in Football.

I just think we are the media whipping boys right now and it seems that people are having fun taking pot shots at a "legend".

[SamSneed36]

zwin a ring then talk. Gibbs has had a year to turn a pile of junk into a machine here. We wont know how Gibbs handeled the offseason until we start playing games.

[skinshog]

Hem hem.....

Gibbs = :1stplace: :1stplace: :1stplace:

Reid = :whoknows: :wtf:

[Tarhog]

I like Andy Reid. He's made the Eagles look more like the Washington Redskins than the Washington Redskins have looked over the past 10 years. He's a solid coach. And I get the feeling he doesn't put up with a lot of nonsense.

But he's no tactician. The last 5 minutes of that Superbowl was some of the worst playoff coaching I've ever seen. Granted, he can't control all aspects of whats occuring on the field, but the near total sense of urgency displayed by him and his offense, and the clumsy beyond belief clock management in the waning minutes didn't reflect well on him.

I'm not sure Andy Reid ever wins a closely contested playoff game against a savvy counterpart.

[Canadian Hog]

Andy Reid is a great coach. Period. He has proven himself at being very adept at getting his players ready to play with attention to detail and good game-planning for several years.

However, when all the chips have been moved to the center of the table, Joe Gibbs has demonstrated a far superior ability at stepping up his game.

Legends don't let opportunities slip through their hands. Gibbs gets to a Super Bowl or NFC Championship game, he wins. Until Reid starts doing the same more consistently, there will always be a gap between himself and the best of the best.

[jwpanic]

andy reid is better than joe gibbs at the following:
1)eating
2)filling out a manzeer
3)losing big games
4)sweating

Not at coaching!!!!!

[Fred Jones]

I agree with you Art and I give credit to Reid for the run that Philly has had the last few years and the consistency his team brings year after year. However, to write Gibbs off is a mistake. Last year was his first year back from coaching. Give Gibbs a year to get going. A year to develop players and a year to implement his offensive system. A year to adjust his offense to fit his players. Let’s wait until the end of this upcoming season before we pass judgment. I have faith that Gibbs will adjust to the 2005 version of the NFL. The question one should also ask is if the Sins, Pukes and Gints all improve and start challenging Philly, how will Philly, and Reid, adjust? As another poster said, Philly has enjoyed a nice run with a NFC East and NFC division full of non-winners. What happens when teams in the NFC start winning?

[GSF]

Gibbs has 3 rings, Reid has none. Nuff said.

[33]

Make no mistakes about it, Reid seems to be one of the best coaches in the NFL right now.

Make no mistakes about this either, he won't be remember much if he never wins a SB. And he won't be remembered like Gibbs if he doesn't win Three.

[tkpckfan]

I believe andy reid is a very good coach and has had much success. But to say he is better than gibbs is out of the question. we all know gibbs had won 3 titles, and andy as a head coach has not won any, but he has won a superbowl with the packers.

[Kosher Ham]

Obviously it seems that we all have respect for Reid and what he has been able to do over the past few years.

But again as Blakman211 pointed out, Gibbs was winning when the NFC was dominant. I believe it was Denver who finally broke the streak of NFC wins in the SB and unfortunately it was the Raiders that won last in the AFC prior to that. Some would argue that the Bills was a dynasty of sorts based on the fact that they got there 4 times in a row.

If Reid somehow gets the Eagles to win a few SBs, then people will put him in the Tom Landry, Bill Parcells, Bill Walsh, Joe Gibbs, Bill Belichick, etc., group of coaches.

Until that time he will be a good coach much like Mooch, Cowher, Marv Levy, etc.....

IMO.

[Voice of Reason]

When you consider legacy and past accomplishments, Gibbs is obviously the better coach. However, if I'm to choose Andy Reid or Joe Gibbs as the coach of my football team in 2005, I'll take Reid.

[slackermike]

Originally posted by jwpanic

2)filling out a manzeer


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Westbrook36]

Right now, in the salary cap era, Reid is better. He has proven it. But, I'm sure this thread will be full of talk of Superbowls from a decade ago.

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Right now, in the salary cap era, Reid is better. He has proven it. But, I'm sure this thread will be full of talk of Superbowls from a decade ago.

Westy, Salary cap or not the Eagles havent been able to get it done. This is a fact.

Look at Gibbs as a first year HC and compare him to Reid his first year as HC. I am pretty sure that the Eagles were only 5-11 that year, and either 11-5 or 10-6 the second year.

Are you saying that a coach of Gibbs magnitude doesnt have the opportunity to experience the same type of turn around, or that he simply cant ?

[Redfaced21]

Reid has never won a superbowl, Gibbs is still got him.

[Thinking Skins]

Originally posted by Voice of Reason
When you consider legacy and past accomplishments, Gibbs is obviously the better coach. However, if I'm to choose Andy Reid or Joe Gibbs as the coach of my football team in 2005, I'll take Reid.

Thats Bull. If I had to choose between a team thats already developed and a team thats not, then of corse I'm going to choose the already developed team. Wait til Gibbs has had some time with the Redskins before you say how bad he is.

If I'm building a team, I want a coach that can adjust. Thats the thing that Gibbs excelled at. If Reid wants to change things, he does so by finding a new player. And hows Reid handling this thing about T.O. wanting more money? At least when Coles complained, Gibbs handled it so that now its over and done with, not lurking in the background serving as a distraction.

People act like Gibbs coached Lacrosse back in the 80's. Man, football is football.

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by blakman211


Thats Bull.

People act like Gibbs coached Lacrosse back in the 80's. Man, football is football.

I agree with you for maybe the first time on this board.

:cheers:


As an Owner (In Nascar) he was able to win and put the pieces together, as a coach he has shown that he can do the same. The thing that we should be looking forward to is that he refuses to fail and refuses to accept mediocrity.

EDIT: And Football is Football. Agreed.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Whether Andy Reid is a better coach NOW than Gibbs is questionable. However, to compare Reid to Gibbs in terms of legacy or accomplishments, is not only a stretch, but it's also stupid.

[ciresolstice]

"So, he put the offense into the basic elements and built from there. One reason most of us were so encouraged with the second Eagles game in particular is because as unimaginative as that offense was in the game, there was a toughness and sense of purpose we haven't seen from the Redskins in a very long time."


^^^ great point. and very true.



I think Reid is is a great coach though...

a better coach than Gibbs was last season...but that doesn't really say much.

When Reid has championships and is a Hall of Famer. Holler back.


Is it even fair to compare a coach that has been coaching for a while in this era of football against one that just got back to it with 1 year behind him? and base those years against Gibbs' one year back? really.

Lets make this more even...Gibbs' entire Career as a head NFL coach..vs Reid's.

Pretty easy call to make now huh^^^

[33]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Right now, in the salary cap era, Reid is better. He has proven it. But, I'm sure this thread will be full of talk of Superbowls from a decade ago.

And why shouldn't it? Are Super Bowls not the actual final prize of the NFL? At least we can talk about a decade ago. You my friend can not talk about anytime ago.

Gibbs has only had one year in the salary cap era and it was with an inherited team. Take Gibbs first three years in the league against anyones. Best begining to a career ever. 8-8, SB, SB loss.


Whether Andy Reid is a better coach NOW than Gibbs is questionable. However, to compare Reid to Gibbs in terms of legacy or accomplishments, is not only a stretch, but it's also stupid.

Thank you for your objectivity. I won't dispute anything about your post, but rather applaud it for impartiality.

[Westbrook36]

Ok, I don't think I made myself clear. Comparing the careers of the two men is assinine at best. I mean, 3 to none is pretty cut and dry.

BUT, for 2005, if I need a coach to win THIS YEAR, I'm taking Reid. Most of you will take Gibbs based off of what he did so many years ago.....you know, I can't really knock you either.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Ok, I don't think I made myself clear. Comparing the careers of the two men is assinine at best. I mean, 3 to none is pretty cut and dry.

BUT, for 2005, if I need a coach to win THIS YEAR, I'm taking Reid. Most of you will take Gibbs based off of what he did so many years ago.....you know, I can't really knock you either.

I'll agree with this as well.

I understand why Redskins fans would still take Gibbs, but I'd take Reid in '05 if I had my druthers, but an argument can be formed in either direction.

[33]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Ok, I don't think I made myself clear. Comparing the careers of the two men is assinine at best. I mean, 3 to none is pretty cut and dry.

BUT, for 2005, if I need a coach to win THIS YEAR, I'm taking Reid. Most of you will take Gibbs based off of what he did so many years ago.....you know, I can't really knock you either.


I'll agree with this as well.

I understand why Redskins fans would still take Gibbs, but I'd take Reid in '05 if I had my druthers, but an argument can be formed in either direction.

I don't dispute what you both are saying. I personally would have more fun taking Gibbs, as I imagine you guys with Reid.

All I've been trying to say from the start is that while I give Reid a lot of credit for being easily the 2nd or 3rd best coach in the NFL currently, he won't be looked at that way without at least one ring. Which until he gets, he's a total failure. Sad, but true. The NFL is about rings when push comes to shove.

But to say what coach you would want for this upcoming season is equally assinine. With what team? For the Skins, I take Gibbs. He knows the team, it's his team. For the Eagles I would probably pick Reid. But I can't help but think about Dungy being replaced a few years ago and Gruden coming in to take TB all the way.

Having said that, I will let you know that I believe Reid to be a better coach than Gruden. But, sometimes a fresh approach makes the difference.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by bhayesp




I don't dispute what you both are saying. I personally would have more fun taking Gibbs, as I imagine you guys with Reid.

All I've been trying to say from the start is that while I give Reid a lot of credit for being easily the 2nd or 3rd best coach in the NFL currently, he won't be looked at that way without at least one ring. Which until he gets, he's a total failure. Sad, but true. The NFL is about rings when push comes to shove.

But to say what coach you would want for this upcoming season is equally assinine. With what team? For the Skins, I take Gibbs. He knows the team, it's his team. For the Eagles I would probably pick Reid. But I can't help but think about Dungy being replaced a few years ago and Gruden coming in to take TB all the way.

Having said that, I will let you know that I believe Reid to be a better coach than Gruden. But, sometimes a fresh approach makes the difference.

Very good points. Gruden is a personal favorite of mine, but there are times when Reid's steady hand is best for the Eagles. I don't expect any Redskins fans to what anyone else than their legendary coach either, so there probably won't be any ground gained in this discussion from either side.

[Parlett316]

Ok Eagle fans, which one, Buddy Ryan or Andy Reid?

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by Parlett316
Ok Eagle fans, which one, Buddy Ryan or Andy Reid?

I liked Buddy's attitude, but he had no success in the postseason, and little vision for offensive talent. I suspect a qualified offensive coordinator would have remedied that, but I'll take Reid.

[tr1]

The Eagles had a chance to come back at the end of the Super Bowl. The time mismangement, I believe, was not McNabb's fault, but Reid's fault.

I think coaching evaluation is based on how one does in the heat of the battle, when everything is on the line. I think the coaching collapsed...it was a very bizarre ending.

[Art]

Reid has not proven ANYTHING OTHER than with one QB and a team that is generally kept in tact over the years, that he can win games in a weaker division. That is not proof of goodness. It's proof he's been better than anyone else against him in the division for a while, but the division hasn't exactly been stellar.

Reid has never displayed Gibbs' ability to adapt to personnel or handle any real adversity. Gibbs won championships with entirely different deployments of the offensive scheme. Different QBs. Different running backs. He won games when his team was overmatched due to injury.

Gibbs WAS, absolutely, a horrible coach last year. He'll tell you the same. He was slow to get plays in. He wasn't thinking plays ahead like he used to. He didn't fully understand the personnel he had. But, even where he had a terrible coaching year, he recognized what that team needed and adjusted to fit what that team could do.

Until Andy Reid does ANYTHING through adversity, I'll always take a guy like Joe Gibbs. Because, as of this moment in time, as much credit as I give Reid for some of the good things in Philly, you can't say he's proven anything except he can ride a very positive wave.

A whole lot of coaches can do that.

[budski]

Reid is an excellant coach. Picking him or Gibbs for coaching a team is real easy based on recent records.
I would pick Gibbs to coach NasCar.
I would pick Reid to coach football.
But if I were Reid I would be looking into his "big game" problems.
It is clear he is following Reeves and Levys footpath.

[TheGreek1973]

Originally posted by blakman211
I was listening to Sirrius Radio today in my car and they finally were talking about the Redskins. After a few calls from people, an Eagles fan called in and spoke about Reid, particularly how
- Reid has handled things this offseason compared to Gibbs;
- He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;
- that Reid has a successful program in Philly;
- that Reid was better at adjusting his offense, whereas Gibbs just gave up last year;

I wanted to call in and just profanely denounce these statements, but I had already called in once and the show was about to end. So I just called my dad and we had a good laugh.

------
Reid?...Well lets see. Did Reid have to face two other teams that were Championship caliber teams like the Dallas and Giants year after year and still endup going to 4 SBs winning 3 of them?

How good a coach would Reid be if he didn'thave Mcnabb? I mean how good would his offense be? Gibbs did it with 3 different QBs....oh I forgot even with Mcnabb Reid hasn't done it yet.:D

[Buford]

Reid is the equal to a runningback who's awesome between the 20's, but can't punch it in.

I deeply believe that in their Def. Coord was their head coach, they got a Off. Coord who designed an offense for McNabb, not Reids "Favre" offense where D-Mac scrambles sometimes...... they would have at least 1 superbowl ring.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Wonder how well Gibbs would have done with those eagles teams. Think they'd have a ring?

[Art]

In the end, there's the biggest difference between Reid and Gibbs. When Eagle fans talk of Reid, it is often to say a player on the Eagles fits perfectly with what the Eagles want to do. Westbrook, for example, is a perfect fit for what Reid wants to do. They'll say this. They'll be absolutely right. This is a great positive to be sure.

Reid has a vision. He's got an idea. And he assists in finding players who fit within that vision and with those ideas. This is why he's a very good coach.

Gibbs is a level above.

When Redskin fans talk about Gibbs, as they hear through former players, it's not that any player fits well with what Gibbs wants to do. It's that Gibbs identifies WHAT that player CAN do, and asks him to do that, adjusting what he can do around what the player he has is capable of doing.

As Doc illuminated for us some time ago, Gibbs' greatness as a coach is finding the things -- perhaps only one thing -- a player can do better than most or better than all, and putting him in position to do just that.

Gibbs was gone for a long time. He had to learn exactly what his players could do and how to best compliment the players he had. While he may not enjoy immediate success with the changes he made, it is clear he knows exactly what he's doing.

He's doing what he's always done.

Fit what he does to what his players can.

Reid does not do that.

[RaleighSkinsMann]

3>0 ..........................hail skins!!!!!!!!!:logo:

[Chachie]

Originally posted by bubba9497
so how many Super Bowl trophies does Reid have?


Ooooooooohh!!! RIGHT in the CHEST! :laugh:

[budski]

Art,
Disagree with you on this one. Having a player fit a system
is no differant than having a system fit a player, in fact it is the
same. Once the player is in the system and whether it works out or not is dependent on how good the people are that pick the player. Reid is just as good as Gibbs at this I think. The problem exists in adapting your game plans for level 2 (playoffs) level 3 (superbowl). Reid can do it all, but there is something that is lacking when it comes to level 3. On top of that problem is the longer you stay the top dog, the more the other dogs learn how your tactics work and how to take you down. You said gibbs was good at adjusting, Reid is also, but adjusting in the playoffs, superbowl, are worlds apart from adjusting in the regular season.
thats what separates the two men.

[wskin44]

Originally posted by Canadian Hog
Andy Reid is a great coach. Period. He has proven himself at being very adept at getting his players ready to play with attention to detail and good game-planning for several years.

However, when all the chips have been moved to the center of the table, Joe Gibbs has demonstrated a far superior ability at stepping up his game.

Legends don't let opportunities slip through their hands. Gibbs gets to a Super Bowl or NFC Championship game, he wins. Until Reid starts doing the same more consistently, there will always be a gap between himself and the best of the best.

Well said. Reid is a great coach. Gibbs is even greater.

[GSF]

Art is exactly right. The Eagles have enjoyed the luxury of playing in a very weak division in recent seasons, which allowed them to gain home field advantage and a bye in the playoffs pretty easily. Year after year though, when they got some stiff competition deep in the playoffs they crumbled. I personally attribute Philly's perrenial choking directly to Reid. When the pressure was really on, Reid made some seriously bone headed play calls, he abandoned the run, and he showed poor clock management. Basically he panicked. I also think that the Eagles could have had already won a superbowl if Reid adjusted his ofense to fit McNabb's game a little better. Up until now, McNabb just hasn't consistently had the accuracy to be a great west coast QB like a Young or Montana. Reid's offense has been too 1 dimensional, and puts way too much pressure on McNabb to do it all.

I consider Reid to be a good, but not great coach. I don't even rank him in the top 5. I would have to put the following coaches ahead of Reid:

Bellichic
Parcells
Gibbs
Fox
Vermeil
Holmgren
Billick

[Loki]

Andy Reid is a good coach, but has he won any Superbowls? Gibbs had to get reacclimated (sp?) into the current NFL. I think that we will see much improvent this season on offense......:2cents:

[G-Prime]

Gibbs would never make a bet with Moss, that would result in him wearing speedo's..

Reid would..

Gibbs cares about us all.

[Monkart]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Right now, in the salary cap era, Reid is better. He has proven it. But, I'm sure this thread will be full of talk of Superbowls from a decade ago.

Yes your right this thread will talk about SB's from a decade ago, because they still count. Andy Reid is a great coach, but face it NO Super Bowls !!! You can not say he's better when he has only reached 1 Super Bowl, and lets not forget how he coached the last 5 minutes.;)
It's all about the finish, ask Marv Levy. Did I remember his name right? :whoknows: Bills 4 time Super Bowl loser.

[Higgs44]

My pic says it all:cheers:

[budski]

Dont forget the Vikings, of course the Broncos, now the Eagles.
oh well.

[Westbrook36]

If Gibbs has a year as bad as last, this question will be laughed at if asked again next offseason. ;)

[Dallsux]

Originally posted by blakman211
I was listening to Sirrius Radio today in my car and they finally were talking about the Redskins. After a few calls from people, an Eagles fan called in and spoke about Reid, particularly how
- Reid has handled things this offseason compared to Gibbs;
- He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;
- that Reid has a successful program in Philly;
- that Reid was better at adjusting his offense, whereas Gibbs just gave up last year;

:wtf: He "just gave up, huh?! That just goes to show the ignorance of most Eagles fans. :eaglesuck


I wanted to call in and just profanely denounce these statements, but I had already called in once and the show was about to end. So I just called my dad and we had a good laugh.


I would have to. FIRST & FOREMOST, Andy Reid is missing 3 little things...I mean, RINGS. Kinda hard to be better than a HOF coach when you don't have any RINGS to show off.

[Skindrodamus]

This post is one of the millions of reasons that i truely believe Eagles fans are the worst in the league.

Now dont get me wrong they do have some knowledgeable fans that know what they are talking about, and we have seen them in these forums, but they have another very big population of front runners that live in or around philly that never cared about the Eagles until about 5 or 6 years ago when they woke up and found out they were the crapping pot of the East anymore.

(lived with a frontrunner philly fan last year at school)

[denverdan]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
If Gibbs has a year as bad as last, this question will be laughed at if asked again next offseason. ;)

How so Westbrook? Sometimes it takes more than a season or even two to build a superbowl champ or even a consistent winner. Gibbs was off less time than Vermeil and hes a better coach.

Here is Dick Vermeil's records after his comeback,


| 1997 ram | 5 11 0 | 0 0 |
| 1998 ram | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |
| 1999 ram | 13 3 0 | 3 0 |
| 2001 kan | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 kan | 8 8 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 kan | 13 3 0 | 0 1 |
| 2004 kan | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |


Just wondering if you had a choice between Gibbs and Vermeil who would you pick?

[Art]

Originally posted by budski
Art,
Disagree with you on this one. Having a player fit a system
is no differant than having a system fit a player, in fact it is the
same. Once the player is in the system and whether it works out or not is dependent on how good the people are that pick the player. Reid is just as good as Gibbs at this I think. The problem exists in adapting your game plans for level 2 (playoffs) level 3 (superbowl). Reid can do it all, but there is something that is lacking when it comes to level 3. On top of that problem is the longer you stay the top dog, the more the other dogs learn how your tactics work and how to take you down. You said gibbs was good at adjusting, Reid is also, but adjusting in the playoffs, superbowl, are worlds apart from adjusting in the regular season.
thats what separates the two men.

Bud,

I'm not sure how you conclude having a player fit a system is no different than having a system fit a player. It's so far different it is not even in the ballpark for similarity. Identifying the system, then, finding players who fit it and are successful in it is what most coaches do. Most have a specific vision as to how to do things.

Most coaches believe you do it the way they think and you win. If they get the right players to make their vision real, they win. If they don't, they don't, yet, the way they do things is not necessarily invalidated. They just didn't get the right players. That is VERY different than what a very small number of coaches have shown they are willing to do, which is to take the players, and mold the system around them.

Then, as the players change, continue to mold, not just between years, but, between games and even IN games. Very few coaches are willing to scrap a game play minutes into a Super Bowl and simply do something else to directly counter what the opposition is doing. Gibbs did that.

Very few coaches implement plays developed on the bus on the way to the game IN the game when the game is the Super Bowl. Gibbs allowed Petitbone and Pec to do that. Few coaches have ever shown the flexibility and adaptability of Gibbs. His method of operation is entirely different than the other.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Art




Then, as the players change, continue to mold, not just between years, but, between games and even IN games. Very few coaches are willing to scrap a game play minutes into a Super Bowl and simply do something else to directly counter what the opposition is doing. Gibbs did that.

Very few coaches implement plays developed on the bus on the way to the game IN the game when the game is the Super Bowl. Gibbs allowed Petitbone and Pec to do that. Few coaches have ever shown the flexibility and adaptability of Gibbs. His method of operation is entirely different than the other.

The "Bus Driver special" in Super Bowl 26. Wow what a play.

Blitz, Thurman Thomas misses the pick up, Goviea picks it off, returns it to the 1. Next play, Riggs walks into the end zone, 24-0, less then a minute into the 3rd quarter.

The game plan against the Bills in that Super Bowl was as brilliant as there ever will be.

[Higgs44]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
If Gibbs has a year as bad as last, this question will be laughed at if asked again next offseason. ;)

It sure will, cause Gibbs will still have 3 rings, and Reid still wont!:laugh:

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by denverdan


How so Westbrook? Sometimes it takes more than a season or even two to build a superbowl champ or even a consistent winner. Gibbs was off less time than Vermeil and hes a better coach.

Here is Dick Vermeil's records after his comeback,


| 1997 ram | 5 11 0 | 0 0 |
| 1998 ram | 4 12 0 | 0 0 |
| 1999 ram | 13 3 0 | 3 0 |
| 2001 kan | 6 10 0 | 0 0 |
| 2002 kan | 8 8 0 | 0 0 |
| 2003 kan | 13 3 0 | 0 1 |
| 2004 kan | 7 9 0 | 0 0 |


Just wondering if you had a choice between Gibbs and Vermeil who would you pick?

Man, you have a built in excuse to last you several years now. :laugh:

[budski]

Art,
I think you just said what I said, but better.
Ill try again.
It is the ability of the coaching staff to be able to pick the right player accurately. What may appear to be the right player for the system may infact not work out, because the coaches picked wrong. Reid and Gibbs are both good at that picking the right player.
The changing of gameplans you mentioned is what I was referring to about level 2 and 3. Reid has not been able to do that.
Never heard about the bus play though.... can you fill me in.

[budski]

Westbrook,
Careful
DenverDan may have his built in excuse. The eagles seem to be working on a legacy of excuses.

[Westbrook36]

Why did Gibbs pick Portis if he doesn't really fit his system? :confused:

[budski]

Oh westbrook go home.

[wskin44]

Portis fell into his lap for Bailey who would have been very difficult to retain, even though we franchised him. Portis tried to adjust to Gibb's system and wasn't as effective as he had been in the past, so Gibb's adjusted his system. As others have maintained, many coaches wouldn't make the adjustment. Gibbs usually adjusts and ends up a winner.

[Higgs44]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Why did Gibbs pick Portis if he doesn't really fit his system? :confused:

Why would Andy Reid draft a QB that :puke: in the Super Bowl?

:eaglesuck

[Art]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Why did Gibbs pick Portis if he doesn't really fit his system? :confused:

Because Gibbs is not like Reid. Gibbs is flexible. He will cater his system to the players he has. As he learned Portis he adjusted and tweaked and in the offseason, went out and added players on the outside who he thinks further assist the skills Portis has.

The question you ask though, "Why did Gibbs pick Portis if he doesn't really fit his system?" is the sort of ignorance you should not have as a regular here. Gibbs doesn't pick guys who fit his system. He picks guys who can play football, then he adjusts his system to fit them.

Gibbs, obviously, didn't really know the players in the NFL very well last year, so, he had to do this on the fly. It'll be another year or two before he really gets the knowledge he'll probably need to really identify complimentary parts.

You should know this being here as long as you have.

[denverdan]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


Man, you have a built in excuse to last you several years now. :laugh:

Being an bEAGLES fan, you've become quite the expert on built in excuses, I'm mean how else would you be able to cope? At least they are keeping it interesting for you by finding different ways how to choke :puke:

I know you watched both games last year, both were very close, so I would expect you to give Gibbs just a little bit of respect or at least equal that which you would afford any first year coach.

Andy Reid 5-11
Joe Gibbs 6-10

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by denverdan


Being an bEAGLES fan, you've become quite the expert on built in excuses, I'm mean how else would you be able to cope? At least they are keeping it interesting for you by finding different ways how to choke :puke:

I know you watched both games last year, both were very close, so I would expect you to give Gibbs just a little bit of respect or at least equal that which you would afford any first year coach.

Andy Reid 5-11
Joe Gibbs 6-10

I didn't know last year was Gibbs first as a coach. So he was like a newborn last year? :laugh:

Anyway, Gibbs still gets the nod because of the rings, even a Eagles homer like me can't take that away from him. He still had some moments (well, more than some) which left many scratching their head thinking it was his first season as an NFL Head coach.

He largely got a pass last year because he is a living legend. I don't think he'll get the same pass this year if he still struggles with the most basic fundementals of coaching a football game.

[codeorama]

Yes, Andy Reid is fatter than Joe Gibbs...

[denverdan]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


I didn't know last year was Gibbs first as a coach. So he was like a newborn last year? :laugh:

Anyway, Gibbs still gets the nod because of the rings, even a Eagles homer like me can't take that away from him. He still had some moments (well, more than some) which left many scratching their head thinking it was his first season as an NFL Head coach.

He largely got a pass last year because he is a living legend. I don't think he'll get the same pass this year if he still struggles with the most basic fundementals of coaching a football game.

Yes, when you build a team almost from scratch as Gibbs did last year, you are a first year coach.

If you would of watched more than 2 Redskins games last year you would know that some of Gibbs problems early in the year like Clock Management and Ref challenges were not a problem later in the year. The same cannot be said for Reid and his brilliant Super Bowl clock management, but he was probably more worried about stepping in barf so he gets a nod and a pass.:laugh:

[denverdan]

Westbrook just in case you missed the Putin thread:


Originally posted by 70Chip
OK. So, there are now more Super Bowl rings in the Kremlin than in Philadelphia.

:laugh:

[Westbrook36]

Well, that's actually a pretty hilarious line. :laugh:

Reid and Levens both have rings, so the statement, albeit funny, is incorrect. ;)

[DC]

3 - Superbowl rings in five appearences...Gibbs

0 - Superbowl rings in one appearence...Reid

??????Not much to compare

[themurf]

Dear Cheesesteak Andy,

Win a Super Bowl (or three) and make the Hall of Fame. Then we'll talk.

Hugs,

Joe Gibbs

[Higgs44]

Originally posted by DC
3 - Superbowl rings in five appearences...Gibbs

0 - Superbowl rings in one appearence...Reid

??????Not much to compare

Dont shortchange Gibbs, he got 3 rings in 4 chances
:point2sky

[denverdan]

Originally posted by DC
3 - Superbowl rings in five appearences...Gibbs

0 - Superbowl rings in one appearence...Reid

??????Not much to compare

Don't short change Reid either, Westbrook has already informed us that as an assistant coach Reid has a ring, too bad it doesn't fit on his chubby fingers anymore. :D

[Jay Master Jay]

Reid has to win some Super Bowls to even be in the same conversation as Mr. Gibbs. Regular season records dont count ask Coach Marty about that.

[Vman2k6]

according to last season, Reid outcoached gibbs...but gibbs will def. adjust this year to shoot him way past andy

[bosshog]

I am here to state unequivocally that Andy Reid is better than Joe Gibbs.....at eating Philly cheese steak sandwiches.

[larry29]

To even compare any coach in the nfl today to gibbs, other that parcells, is stupid. Gibbs and Parcells are the top of the class, along with billichickenfilletwithmustardandmayonaissetomycred itcardplease

[skinstzar]

Ried=Good
Gibbs=HOF, 3 rings and often mentioned with the likes of Shula, Lombardi, Parcells and the true greats.

I personally don't even think that Andy Ried is the best coach on the Eagles staff. Jim Johnson is a great great defensive mind. He has BF'ed the skins for a long long time. Why that guy never took a HC job is beyond me. He has done so much with so little at times.

[hercules]

Andy is a fine coach, I'll admit, but he's got to lose about 190 pounds if he wants to live as long as Joe has.

Oh yeah, winning a few real championships would also help in terms of comparing the greatness of the two.


If I were an Eagles fan I'd be saying "Dammit Andy, lay off those cheesesteaks already, will ya?" You keel over and we might end up with Rich Kotite or Mike McCormack all over again.


Anyway: :eaglesuck

[Dirk Diggler]

Both men serve in the same capacity and have absolute power so it's an entirely valid comparison. However, how much of Gibbs's success from yesteryear applies to today and in the future? I don't think the game has changed enough to discount much if any of his past successes when projecting the caliber of coach he is today. So the vast majority of criteria will be determined based on his 1st go around since his 2nd term only comprises of 2 offseasons and 1 regular season.

Another point to consider: the Eagles have been so consistently good that it's almost scary. Exactly how much of that is Andy Reid's doing is a debate in and of itself. When he came on in 1999, he was just a coach and did not have the absolute power he has now. That power was handed to him in 2001.

IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER...

1) Player Acquistion

The fact is, the 2 most important people responsible for the success of the Eagles outside of Reid are Jim Johnson and Don McNabb. Reid didn't have finally say in 1999 so you really can't give him the credit for those additions. However, he's shown himself to be pretty damn good at finding solid players/coaches via the draft and free agency. Reid also seems to have a knack for knowing when an older player is finished, thus helping the Eagles avoid the 9er/Dallas syndrome of paying for what a player has done than rather what he will do.

Gibbs has done a solid job of adding players in 2 offseasons. But that isn't much of a book to go by. His teams of yesteryear were never the most talented + he didn't ever have the final say.

Edge Reid

2) In Game Coaching

In terms of excecution, Xs & Os, adjustments, etc it isn't even close. Gibbs is considered the best offensive mind ever in this regard while Reid has been less than impressive in this area - especially during the playoffs. In fact, the Eagles offense only started to play well recently. They were carried by their defense and special teams for half of Reid's tenure.

Edge Gibbs

3) Versatility

Again, a big edge to Gibbs. Gibbs has won with virtually every type of team possible. Smashmouth, passing/spread offenses, good QBs, average QBs, teams with great lines but less than spectacular skill players, and with different coaching staffs. Average defenses, different coordinators.

Reid hasn't really been forced to win with a lot of turnover though that can be a positive (as I'll mention later) but until he does - it remains unknown.

Edge Gibbs

4) Team Concept

I think that Reid is second only to Belicheck in preaching and executing his team concept above all else. He has convinced his QB that it's all about the uniform and it's trickled down to every player on the roster. Players who don't buy in are history and there aren't any exceptions. Gibbs believes in the same principles but I just don't think he makes it the #1 ingredient of the organization the way Reid does.

Edge Reid

5) Adjusting to Injuries/Player Losses

Philly has had their fair share of injuries over the last 6 seasons but they never seem to miss a beat. Even when McNabb went down in 02, they won with Koy freakin Detmer. They lost the heart and soul of their defense - Brian Dawkins for most of 03 - and were still rock solid. Gibbs is excellent in this area too but Reid might be the best in the league.

Edge Reid

6) Game Planning

Another Gibbs hallmark. He rarely had the most talented teams but he almost always had the best plan. He found a way to handle the great Bears defenses of the mid-80s and the Eagle defenses of the late 80s/early 90s when they were impervious to every other offense. His philosophy of passing to set up the run is still used in the league today.

Reid never found a way to get it going against the great Bucs defenses and New England's Defense was simply outmanned due to injuries in the Super Bowl. Still, they couldn't get it done. Strahan and the Giants defense used to simply manhandle the Eagles and won 8 or 9 straight though the Eagles finally got it together when New York waived the white flag in 2003 and 2004.

Edge Gibbs

7) Balls/Composure

You gotta have big ones to win titles. There are always several opportunites for a coach to show em during the course of a very long season. Sometimes it's starting a 3rd stringer on a hunch. Sometimes it's on onsides kick to start the game or half. Or perhaps it's cutting a Pro Bowler just to make an example out of him regardless of what it does to the cap.

There have only been a handful of teams that were soooooo physically dominant on one/both sides of the ball that all they had to do was show up. All that was required of the coach was not to do anything stupid. 85 Bears, 00 Ravens, Steelers of the 70s come to mind.

I don't think that either coach is exceptional in this aread but Reid has shown a degree of tightness that has a positive correlation with the magnitude of the game. You've heard the expression a million times: coaching not to lose. Reid has made a habit of it at the worst possible times. Gibbs is generally conservative but he knows when to double down. Reid isn't even sure what double down means.

Edge Gibbs



Final Score

Gibbs 4-3.

[Eagles_Legendz]

I think that is a fair comparison for the most part Dirk. I will not claim that Reid is better than Gibbs in game planning, but you sell him short there. He isn't good at in game adjustments, but he generally has a great game stategy going in. Also, you cite the Giants as proof of this, though Reid's record against the Giants is good. The majority of that "streak" came when Rhodes was the coach. Furthermore, Philadelphia outplayed NE in the first half of the SB, but lacked the key halftime adjustments that NE made. The gameplan was fine though. Other than that, I think it is a fair analysis.

[bubba9497]

- Reid has handled things this offseason compared to Gibbs;

well Reid has TO's holdout, and Simon's upset over his contract, and he was penalized some OTA days as well

Gibbs, dealt with Coles and Gardner, to the benefit of the team.. had a 96% appearance rate at workouts & OTA's, even though it cost him a couple OTA's... his plan to bring the fans closer to the team through the web is a brilliant move, and will only help bring back the fans that have been pushed away by bad play, and mismanagement the past few years. He has handled the ST situation very well, preventing it from being a major media distraction.

I can't see where Reid has done anything better than Gibbs.


- He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;

when before or now? He had some doozies before and had championships, So far he has handled Coles, Gardner, Arrington, and Taylor very well IMO. and is turning a once individual oriented team into a single working unit... Team first attitude

- that Reid has a successful program in Philly;

Well Gibbs has three Rings in 4 attempts to Reid's 0 in 1, but if the person was comparing only tenure part 2... Gibbs has been back one season finishing 6-10 and close in several defeats. Reid's first season he was 5-11.... anyway you objectively look at it... the Guy is off his rocker here.

- that Reid was better at adjusting his offense, whereas Gibbs just gave up last year;

That is just plan nonsense, the fact that the offense improved greatly over the second half of the season in every stat is proof that Gibbs didn't "give up" on the offense. Where do some of the guys get this crap? After a 12 year absence what do they expect miracles? He improved as the season went on getting his groove back.

[SkinsFTW]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz


I'll agree with this as well.

I understand why Redskins fans would still take Gibbs, but I'd take Reid in '05 if I had my druthers, but an argument can be formed in either direction.

Well if I had a choice of taking a coach of any team it would surely be Gibbs over Reid. Gibbs has won with several different offenses while Reid has blown playoff games and the SB last year doing the same things over and over and over.

You can't say that Gibbs got lucky and faced the weaker teams either. Just look at who didn't get to the SB when the Redskins won them.

And I still believe that the Redskins would have taken the Raiders in a series 2 of 3, lol.

[f_trizzy]

What is there to debate? Until Andy can teach his team not to choke in big games then he isn't ever going to come close to Gibbs. Bottom Line: Gibbs 3 Pig Face 0

[mookie0720]

Better coach last year: Andy Reid

Over their careers: Um...Gibbs has 3 Super Bowls, I don't see how this is even a question.

[mookie0720]

He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;

That's why Reid is ready to get rid of TO.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by mookie0720

Over their careers: Um...Gibbs has 3 Super Bowls, I don't see how this is even a question.


Homer! :laugh:









:jk:

[SkinsFTW]

Somebody's going to have to post that Eagles trophy case again.

[3CardMonte]

Andy Reid is so smart....what with those onside kicks in dallas.

[Westbrook36]

Who did a better job coaching their respective team in 04? Just curious if there is any objectivity left in this thread....

[mooby]

yeah. obviously the eagles did a better job of coaching, but cmon. andy reid is like the modern day version of marv levy. maybe when andy reid has 3 or more super bowl trophies, then i'd consider him. until then, joe gibbs.

[Potato Sack]

Reid has proven to be one of the best coaches in the NFL over the last few years. But, what about the big show? He and McNabb BOTH choked.

A great coaches mark is one that is made during those big games. I don't think anyone can say he's better than Gibbs simply because of what Gibbs has proven. Gibbs will get this team back on track, no doubt. How many more years can Reid get his team to the Super Bowl and NOT choke? And if he does get there again and chokes again do we begin to compare these Eagles to the Bills in the early 90s? Chokers.

[Dallsux]

Originally posted by codeorama
Yes, Andy Reid is fatter than Joe Gibbs...


:laugh: Good one...:thumbsup:

[Dallsux]

Originally posted by Potato Sack
Reid has proven to be one of the best coaches in the NFL over the last few years. But, what about the big show? He and McNabb BOTH choked.

A great coaches mark is one that is made during those big games. I don't think anyone can say he's better than Gibbs simply because of what Gibbs has proven. Gibbs will get this team back on track, no doubt. How many more years can Reid get his team to the Super Bowl and NOT choke? And if he does get there again and chokes again do we begin to compare these Eagles to the Bills in the early 90s? Chokers.


The comparisons with the early '90's Bills has already been made. The funny thing is, the Bills will always come out on top of that. Why? Because unlike the Fecals, the Pills actually MADE IT to the Super Bowl 4 years in a row. The Facals have only been to 1, but they've lost a bunch of NFCC games!!! :laugh: :laugh:


:eaglesuck

[stevenaa]

") Team Concept

I think that Reid is second only to Belicheck in preaching and executing his team concept above all else. He has convinced his QB that it's all about the uniform and it's trickled down to every player on the roster. Players who don't buy in are history and there aren't any exceptions. Gibbs believes in the same principles but I just don't think he makes it the #1 ingredient of the organization the way Reid does.

Edge Reid
"

Good comparison, but I'd disagree with the above. Gibbs' teams were never the most talented. He won by getting the most out of his players and creating the team attitude. I think that he has preached building a "Team" more than anything. It is this very quality that brought him all of his past success.



Andy Reid is a very good coach. But until he wins a title, he won't make it up to the great category. Gibbs is firmly seated as a Great Coach. Now whether or not he still is a Great coach today is open for debate. I believe he'll find success as he always does and over the next few years will cement himself as one of, if not the greatest to ever coach the game.

[Monkart]

Originally posted by bubba9497
- Reid has handled things this offseason compared to Gibbs;

well Reid has TO's holdout, and Simon's upset over his contract, and he was penalized some OTA days as well

Gibbs, dealt with Coles and Gardner, to the benefit of the team.. had a 96% appearance rate at workouts & OTA's, even though it cost him a couple OTA's... his plan to bring the fans closer to the team through the web is a brilliant move, and will only help bring back the fans that have been pushed away by bad play, and mismanagement the past few years. He has handled the ST situation very well, preventing it from being a major media distraction.

I can't see where Reid has done anything better than Gibbs.


- He said that Gibbs couldn't handle problem players;

when before or now? He had some doozies before and had championships, So far he has handled Coles, Gardner, Arrington, and Taylor very well IMO. and is turning a once individual oriented team into a single working unit... Team first attitude

- that Reid has a successful program in Philly;

Well Gibbs has three Rings in 4 attempts to Reid's 0 in 1, but if the person was comparing only tenure part 2... Gibbs has been back one season finishing 6-10 and close in several defeats. Reid's first season he was 5-11.... anyway you objectively look at it... the Guy is off his rocker here.

- that Reid was better at adjusting his offense, whereas Gibbs just gave up last year;


GIBBS never gave up the last 5 minutes of a SB !!

That is just plan nonsense, the fact that the offense improved greatly over the second half of the season in every stat is proof that Gibbs didn't "give up" on the offense. Where do some of the guys get this crap? After a 12 year absence what do they expect miracles? He improved as the season went on getting his groove back.

One thing to point out about the lost of OTA's is none of our players complained, Hell the union determined that they were too rough from watching Redskins TV, even over our teams union reps claims they weren't. But obviously the Eagles players complained about theirs, because that's the usual way the union finds out.

[Monkart]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Well, that's actually a pretty hilarious line. :laugh:

Reid and Levens both have rings, so the statement, albeit funny, is incorrect. ;)

That would depend on where their rings are kept, good chance they are not in Philly!!!:cheers:

[Art]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Who did a better job coaching their respective team in 04? Just curious if there is any objectivity left in this thread....

Unfortunately for you WB, the question you act is not at all a measure for an answer as to which coach is better. Certainly the expectation might be that Reid, a man who's been in the league over the last couple of decades who's been a head coach for a number of years, coaching the same bunch of guys in general, might be somewhat ahead of ANY coach who'd not been around the league at all for many years, who's coaching a batch of guys, none who have played for him (until Brown was brought back) who didn't even have a playbook until the end of March, who had to relearn his own system to teach it, who had to retrain his mind to deal with the speed of the game, etc.

Most people would coach better than that coach.

That wouldn't make them better coaches.

That would simply make their circumstances such that reasonably they could rarely BE outcoached by the other guy. The sad thing is you think this is a measure here. It's not. It's the expectation. It might even be so for a little longer. But, Reid is not even in the same arena as Gibbs when it comes to coaching.

There's NOTHING Reid has proven to be better at than Gibbs as a head coach. Whether Gibbs can get his legs back and fully recapture all his skills is an open question. But, a guy like Reid, who is so limited in his ability to adjust in game, and so tied to a system it takes him YEARS before he finally does the obvious to cater to his best player, will never be in the league of the great, adapatable coaches like Gibbs.

Few coaches will though, so, there's no shame in that.

[OldTownFan]

Judging by all the Super Bowl rings on Reid's fat fingers, Im going to have to go with butterfingers.....oh wait....

[OldTownFan]

I mean Reid has won the big games when it mattered countless times, with different quarterbacks to boot, plus, he is already a hall of famer right?

[DjKam1]

I don't hate a lot of things in life, but...

I hate the philly beagles, their fans, their players, everone that supports the organization.

I'm starting to hate the eagles almost as much as I hate the cowturds, which is kinda silly. And the fans arrogance, and lack of class just make the hatred more intense.

Gibbs is in another dimension in coaching compared to Andy Reid. It is plain and simple, kind of stupid to compare the two. Like some of the posters mentioned, we have won 3 superbowls with coach Gibbs. Gibbs is in the top 3 of all time greatest coaches, Andy Reid will NEVER come close to that.



:eaglesuck

[skinshog]

The fact that there is even a thread concerning this topic amuses me.

[Stone Cold]

show me the rings. period. i don't understand how this thread lasted so long.

[autographcollector]

Originally posted by Stone Cold
show me the rings. period. i don't understand how this thread lasted so long.

Cant we vote to kill a thread???

[Stone Cold]

Cant we vote to kill a thread???

there should be a rule:

you have to get permission from 3 people that know better before you start a thread... :D

[jpgirth]

This is a joke right.

[Thiebear]

This is what he has to aspire to:
AND this is if he works really hard:

AFC championships won: 1990, 1991, 1992, 1993
League Championships won: AFL 1964, 1965
Super Bowl victories: none