Vick horrible in first day of camp

[Da_Truth]

Vick struggles on first day of camp

By Len Pasquarelli
ESPN.com

FLOWERY BRANCH, Ga. -- Here are five observations on the Atlanta Falcons, based on the July 25 afternoon practice:

1. The good news is that quarterback Michael Vick plays with such passion that every foible, as head coach Jim Mora pointed out, is frustrating to the NFL's most electrifying performer. That means the game means something to him personally. The bad news on Monday afternoon? That Vick, at least in the passing game, had so many legitimate sources of frustration.

"He's a perfectionist," Mora said. "He wants everything he does to be perfect." In the first on-field session of camp, Vick didn't even approach mediocre, let alone perfection. Yeah, it was the first practice, the first workout in months in pads, and the transition from throwing a ball in shorts and a T-shirt to being totally padded up is always a dramatic step. It takes time, just from a practical standpoint, to reach a comfort zone in pads. So it's a bit unfair to judge Vick's progress at the outset of Year 2 in the Falcons' bastardization of the West Coast offense, on one 2½-hour session on a sweltering afternoon.

But the point of making training camp observations is to allow readers to see practice through ESPN.com's eyes. And these eyes saw a lot of poor throws. Vick was, in a word, brutal at times. And that might not even accurately describe his afternoon. He was too high. He was too low. He was long and he was short. Vick looked anything but ready to ratchet up his completion percentage to the levels that typically accompany a West Coast-style passing design. His body language belied his frustration. At one point, tight end and favorite target Alge Crumpler, following one particularly scattershot effort, returned to the huddle and placed his arm around Vick's shoulders.

But even more disappointing than his performance in throwing the ball was Vick's slipshod footwork on too many occasions. Hard to imagine, we agree, for a player so agile and nifty, but the guy looked like he had two left feet at times. Vick still tries, or at least he did Monday, to do too much just with his arm. You generate velocity and even accuracy, from the feet up. But Vick rarely squared up, didn't get his feet set, had too many skewed release points. There is also a kind of "jump" in Vick's drop-and-plant, one that, mechanically, forces him to divert his eyes.

Here's hoping that, as Vick strives to move forward as a passer, Monday's first impressions are not lasting ones.

2. They might never admit it publicly, but the Atlanta offensive coaches have all but decided the starting wide receivers will be rookie first-rounder Roddy White and second-year veteran Michael Jenkins, a first-round choice in 2004. What about Peerless Price, you say? Already mentally penciled in by the staff as the No. 3 wideout, probably working from the slot. Assuming, that is, he makes the roster. Which is not yet a given.

The Falcons' brain trust never quite knows where to place culpability for the failure of Price to develop into a bona fide "lead" wideout. Sometimes the team suggests that part of the blame should fall on Vick, who has little confidence in Price, and who simply gave up trying to get him the ball in some 2004 outings. Other times, the Falcons allow that Price, who the team praised during the offseason for an improved work ethic, really is the culprit. But the bottom line on Price is a dismal one: The Falcons surrendered a first-round pick to get him in a 2003 trade with Buffalo, paid him a signing bonus of $10 million, and have doled out $12.5 million in two years to a guy who has produced just six touchdowns.

At least on the opening day of practice, it didn't appear that Price and Vick made any better connection during the offseason than they did in 2004. Of course, one of the dangers in starting White (who, as of Wednesday morning, had not yet signed his rookie contract) and Jenkins is that the two are so young and inexperienced. If the Falcons follow through with their plans, it would mean having two starting wideouts with a total of seven career regular-season catches. And, maybe it's just us, but Jenkins does not play nearly as fast as his stop-watch speed. The former Ohio State standout is a tough kid, and played well on special teams a year ago, but he struggles to get a good release at times.

Mora noted that the receiver spot will be competitive, with veterans Dez White and Brian Finneran in the mix, and it should be. But the Falcons seem to have, for now, five guys capable of playing, but no one who has yet demonstrated that he can make big plays.

Two kids to watch: Kendrick Mosley and Romby Bryant, both tall, angular guys with nice inside separation. One of them could play his way onto the roster if he excels on special teams during the preseason.

3. The second position Mora cited as being ultra-competitive is safety. But one has to wonder: Is it competitive because of the overall quality at the position, or because Atlanta just has a collection of very ordinary players there? The guess is that it's the latter. Certainly the safety with the most potential is Bryan Scott, a third-year pro with physical skills and plenty of smarts. The Falcons are getting a break in that Scott, who underwent offseason shoulder surgery and wasn't expected to participate in on-field drills until well into camp, is already on the field, albeit in a limited basis. The team has made a smart move in allowing him to get reps in all the non-contact drills. He might not play, or even hit anyone, until late in the preseason. But the work Scott is doing now will pay off once the season begins.

At this point, the other starter figures to be veteran Keion Carpenter, a wily, sage player, who missed all of 2004 with a knee injury. He seems to provide leadership to the unit, and his 12 career interceptions certainly make Carpenter the most proven playmaker in the safety bunch, but he largely relies more on savvy than on physical prowess. And that seems to be the common thread among the assemblage at the position. There are enough veterans who have lined up and played -- Carpenter, Scott, Ronnie Heard, Rich Coady and Kevin McCadam -- but there's not a really special player in the lot.

Sure, safety is a position whose importance tends to be diminished. But if you don't have at least one player who can provide some flexibility, who can occasionally go into the slot and cover, that shortcoming is often exposed. The Falcons should be steady enough at the position, particularly if Scott is fully recovered when the season starts, but it's not a position from which they figure to get much more than just steady play. The position produced but one interception in 2004.

4. Looking for the Falcons' strength on defense? It is the overall speed and quickness of the unit, especially at linebacker. In fact, Atlanta added two key veterans in Ed Hartwell (middle) and Ike Reese (strongside) at the linebacker position, and it was obvious even from the first practice that it should really be a standout area.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Whats funny is on sportscenter some atlanta reporter said he did great

[Blue Collar Skins]

I love how he says "Here are five observations on the Atlanta Falcons", but then only lists 4, or was that a cut and paste error?

[Canadian Hog]

I love how he says "Here are five observations on the Atlanta Falcons", but then only lists 4, or was that a cut and paste error?

Lenny ate the fifth one.

[bubba9497]

How'd Ron Mexico look?

[dg28daman]

He's really not a good QB. He's a great athlete, and as explosive as they come, but he's really a nothing QB.

[zoony]

Originally posted by dg28daman
He's really not a good QB. He's a great athlete, and as explosive as they come, but he's really a nothing QB.

:doh:

See....

Atlanta's record without Vick 2 years ago -vs- Atlanta's record with Vick last year.

I hope we get a 'nothing QB'!!!! :)

[Park City Skins]

I'll be mildly aware, or maybe even dig up some alarm if this is stated after the "last day" of camp. Or better yet last day of preseason. Until then, :yawnee:

[authentic]

Originally posted by bubba9497
How'd Ron Mexico look?

ask the girl that he gave herpies to... :)

[BadKarma]

He will end up a Redskin at some point in his career.

[hokie4redskins]

BLASPHEMY!! How dare you doubt Vick! First practice, big deal! He struggled. As much as I dig Ramsey, I'd trade him AND Lavar for Vick in about a nanosecond and so would 99.9% of you.

Vick is not only out of this world, he's out of the solar system. The schmucks saying he isn't all that have no clue what they're talking about. Watch him play live for 20 games and see him take your beloved school on his shoulders to a National championship while punkin' an entire defense that went pro and you'd sing a different tune.

Vick's the man, and that's that.

[jrfriedm]

Michael Vick is the best running back in the league playing quaterback.

[Sebowski]

Originally posted by Canadian Hog


Lenny ate the fifth one.

:laugh: Hope he eats all 5 of his Redskins observations.

[Die Hard]

Originally posted by Park City Skins
I'll be mildly aware, or maybe even dig up some alarm if this is stated after the "last day" of camp. Or better yet last day of preseason. Until then, :yawnee:

Then you missed all of last preseason... where he stunk up the joint.

And then the Falcons went on to play the Eagles in the NFC Championship game. :)

I care little of what happens in the pre-season any more. Same with free agents saying they'll "never play for team XXX again".

I've seen it too many times.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by hokie4redskins
BLASPHEMY!! How dare you doubt Vick! First practice, big deal! He struggled. As much as I dig Ramsey, I'd trade him AND Lavar for Vick in about a nanosecond and so would 99.9% of you.

Vick is not only out of this world, he's out of the solar system. The schmucks saying he isn't all that have no clue what they're talking about. Watch him play live for 20 games and see him take your beloved school on his shoulders to a National championship while punkin' an entire defense that went pro and you'd sing a different tune.

Vick's the man, and that's that.

Amen Hokie, Amen

[Fifty Gut]

Originally posted by hokie4redskins
BLASPHEMY!! How dare you doubt Vick! First practice, big deal! He struggled. As much as I dig Ramsey, I'd trade him AND Lavar for Vick in about a nanosecond and so would 99.9% of you.

Vick is not only out of this world, he's out of the solar system. The schmucks saying he isn't all that have no clue what they're talking about. Watch him play live for 20 games and see him take your beloved school on his shoulders to a National championship while punkin' an entire defense that went pro and you'd sing a different tune.

Vick's the man, and that's that.

smh @ a hokie homer

I even caught someone on Playbook slip and call him what he is, a RB

[VAsBeachBoy]

Dude its seems weird that I am all over Vick too b/c I'm a Hokie. But anyone here who doubts Vick too be one of the top five yes five valuable players in the entire league is NUTS...

[Park City Skins]

Yep. You're right D.H. Missed it. Damn preseason. Get ya every time. ;) That's it. Cut him.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by hokie4redskins
BLASPHEMY!! How dare you doubt Vick! First practice, big deal! He struggled. As much as I dig Ramsey, I'd trade him AND Lavar for Vick in about a nanosecond and so would 99.9% of you.

Vick is not only out of this world, he's out of the solar system. The schmucks saying he isn't all that have no clue what they're talking about. Watch him play live for 20 games and see him take your beloved school on his shoulders to a National championship while punkin' an entire defense that went pro and you'd sing a different tune.

Vick's the man, and that's that.




Originally posted by VAsBeachBoy
Dude its seems weird that I am all over Vick too b/c I'm a Hokie. But anyone here who doubts Vick too be one of the top five yes five valuable players in the entire league is NUTS...

Well that sums up all my feelings right there

Basically if you have ever seen LIVE the amazing things he can do it is unreal.

My favorite live game of his that I saw was West Virginia 2000. He was running all over the place and threw 2 sweet long balls for TD's, which were right on the money.

The man can throw the ball with some amazing accuracy and distance. I have seen nothing like it. Anyone remember the Lions game last year where he threw a 30 yard touchdown pass to a WR tucked away in the corner of the end zone.

He never was the smartest QB and that remains his biggest weakness. If he ever figures out how to pick apart a D, grasp an offense, and read coverages, Vick will be simply unstoppable.

He is only 24 which is the scary part.

As one poster said look at the Falcon's record with Vick and without Vick. That is all that it comes down to kids

[bnacpa]

I agree with Die Hard's comments ... he was pitiful against the skins in the preseason last year as well as other teams ... everyone was talking up the backup QB that they drafted, but it was Vick who got them into the playoffs and to the Championship game. Preseason and 1st practice doesn't mean anything.

Better telling is how consistent Negative Nanny Pasta Belly is ... always full of good cheer. What an assessment for a playoff caliber team. The only accurate information in there was the piece on Peerless Price.

[Westbrook36]

Eagles are the surest best in week one. Line is 3 and the Birds will win by double digits.

[e16bball]

Well, you can look at the record and how much better it was "with Vick" as opposed to "without Vick," but that doesn't quite tell the whole story. Accompanying Vick's return was the emergence of a much more aggressive and effective defense. A defense that recorded 12 more sacks and 4 more INTs, allowed almost 60 less yards of offense per game and, most importantly, over 5 points less per game. That is nearly the same improvement defensively as the Redskins.

Additionally, they added Alex Gibbs as their O-Line coach/consultant. Gibbs, as I'm sure most of you know, was the man in charge of devising the Broncos' somewhat shady but unquestionably effective blocking techniques. Having Warrick Dunn for the entire season helped as well, as the previous season they missed him for 5 games and parts of a few more. He more than doubled his number of carries from the previous season.

Now I'm not downtalking Vick, because I think he's the most breathtaking, exciting athlete in the league. But I think people overestimate the extent of his impact on the team's success. He is assuredly a MASSIVE improvement over Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner. But to call him one of the top 5 most important players "without any doubt" may be overstating it. At this point, anyway.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by e16bball
Well, you can look at the record and how much better it was "with Vick" as opposed to "without Vick," but that doesn't quite tell the whole story. Accompanying Vick's return was the emergence of a much more aggressive and effective defense. A defense that recorded 12 more sacks and 4 more INTs, allowed almost 60 less yards of offense per game and, most importantly, over 5 points less per game. That is nearly the same improvement defensively as the Redskins.

Additionally, they added Alex Gibbs as their O-Line coach/consultant. Gibbs, as I'm sure most of you know, was the man in charge of devising the Broncos' somewhat shady but unquestionably effective blocking techniques. Having Warrick Dunn for the entire season helped as well, as the previous season they missed him for 5 games and parts of a few more. He more than doubled his number of carries from the previous season.

Now I'm not downtalking Vick, because I think he's the most breathtaking, exciting athlete in the league. But I think people overestimate the extent of his impact on the team's success. He is assuredly a MASSIVE improvement over Doug Johnson and Kurt Kittner. But to call him one of the top 5 most important players "without any doubt" may be overstating it. At this point, anyway.

I dunno

Its pretty obvious what he means to the Falcons

Under 2 different head coaches he has led his team to victory more times then not

The record with and without him is astounding.

Compare the Falcons '02 season with Reeves and '03 season with Reeves

And then '04 with Mora

2 different coaches, who would have or did have half the wins without Vick

[Kosher Ham]

The Falcons wont make the playoffs this year.

I dont know if any of you guys know this but the Falcons have NEVER made the playoffs in two consecutive years.

I think Vick is a great athlete with all of the potential that anyone could ask for. But so were Randall Cunninghamand Kordell Stewart, and for me that is where Vick stands for me at this point. A lot of potential, a lot of hype, a lot of running, but not a lot of QBing skills.

[Mooka]

Originally posted by SkinsandTerps
The Falcons wont make the playoffs this year.

I dont know if any of you guys know this but the Falcons have NEVER made the playoffs in two consecutive years.

I think Vick is a great athlete with all of the potential that anyone could ask for. But so were Randall Cunninghamand Kordell Stewart, and for me that is where Vick stands for me at this point. A lot of potential, a lot of hype, a lot of running, but not a lot of QBing skills.

thats because they've NEVER had Vick as a healthy starter for 2 consecutive seasons...

btw how are you seriously comparing Randal to Kordell Stewart???? :doh:

[TheLongshot]

Yeah, lets not give the defense credit for improving. When Vick was injured, the defense was horrible. Last year, they were pretty good.

Also, considering how close a lot of their games were, they could have easily had the same record as us last year, rather than going to the playoffs.

Vick is an exciting player, no doubt, but if the Falcons are going to go anywhere, Vick needs to get much better at throwing the ball. For everything Randall did with Philly with his feet, it was never enough to succeed.

Jason

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by Mooka


thats because they've NEVER had Vick as a healthy starter for 2 consecutive seasons...

btw how are you seriously comparing Randal to Kordell Stewart???? :doh:

Never had Vick and ? They have been to the SB without Vick. Has the world forgotten that ? I would think that Redskins Fans of all people wouldnt have forgotten the 1 point loss in the playoffs to a team they beat a few weeks earlier.

And if you cant see the comparison of Randall and Kordell than I dont know what game you have been watching. People compared Stewart and Cunningham to Vick ever since he was in college, and Stewart to Cunningham since he (Stewart) was in college.

[Westbrook36]

You can never criticize Vick the QB around here because, inevitably, a bunch of Hokies fans will come in and excuse everything he does so poorly because they seen him do amazing things in college.

[bnacpa]

Cunningham was a much better passing QB than Kordel or Vick. Look what he did in Minnesota when he took over for Brad Johnson ... He only led them to the highest scoring offense ever. His problems in Philly were due to Buddy Ryan not developing him as a great QB and then getting a bunch of injuries. The coaches that came in after Buddy (Rich Kotite for example) weren't exactly known for their amazing skills as developing QB's into better passers.

Vick will calm down and do better as a throwing QB over time ... he has the skills, just not the patience and his WR's haven't been great at separation and route running. McNabb was better on his feet at first but has turned into a pretty good QB when he has players open (Westbrook, Smith, TO, etc ...) ... imagine how deadly McNabb might be if he actually had decent receivers across the board?

And lets not forget the Joe Theisman was a pretty mobile QB for Gibbs. He had numerous fast paced roll outs that drew the defense in and he would pass as he was moving around.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
You can never criticize Vick the QB around here because, inevitably, a bunch of Hokies fans will come in and excuse everything he does so poorly because they seen him do amazing things in college.

Bingo :notworthy

And I'll be honest. I didn't just see him do amazing things in college, he did some pretty damn UN human things at Tech.

In the pros? Well he took an overmatched Falcons team to Green Bay in the playoffs and won big.

What I do need to mention was at Tech he had pretty good WR play, especially with Andre Davis. They had a great connection on the deep ball.

Right now he seems to only have connected with Alge Crumpler. If another WR steps it up, and becomes a deep threat, you'll see a ton of deep balls thrown by the Falcons (because honestly, his best passes at Tech were deep balls)

Does he have a long way to go as a passer? Hell yeah he does. But once he gets it, it is going to be downright unreal.

Is this year the year? Year 2 in the same offense with the same cast of characters, I wouldn't bet against him

[TheLongshot]

Originally posted by bnacpa
Cunningham was a much better passing QB than Kordel or Vick. Look what he did in Minnesota when he took over for Brad Johnson ... He only led them to the highest scoring offense ever.

Yeah, but remember, we are talking about Cunningham late in his career, when he became more of a thrower than a runner. It wasn't until about 1992 that he raised his completion percentage above 60%, and he started running a lot less.

Right now, I see most people spying Vick. He probably will get his yards on the ground, but I can't see him beating a defense with his arm right now.

Jason

[bnacpa]

I agree ... Vick won't beat a defense with his arm ... and my point about Cunningham is that he did develop into a passing QB later ... and overall was better because he could make that transition ... slash stewart never could. Vick will need to learn to throw accurately on the run like McNabb and Farve (earlier in his career) did very well. Same a Flutie ... once that happens, he will become deadly and 2 dimensional

[SkinsHokieFan]

One quick question in regards to criticsm.

Are people criticizing his physical ability to throw the ball? In terms of his arm strength and accuracy?

Or, as I am surmising, people are criticizing his decision making and ability to read defenses?

I just want to be clear, because the physical throwing ability IMO is just unreal.

Decision making, understanding the O, and reading D he has a long way to go. He almost switched to WR his freshmen year because of the trouble he had with the playbook

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Um, why the lumping in of Randall with Kordell? Cuz they were black and mobile?

Randall, while not the most adroit defense-reader and possessing a long wind-up throw, was one of the most beautiful passers, even from the pocket in the league. Randall blew in the playoffs until he got a lot older, but he was a solid QB who threw for thousands of yards even when Philadelphia's WRs were not on the level of the top corps.

[Kosher Ham]

I dont hate Vick at all. I hate the hype.

Brad Johnson and Trent Dilfer took terrible offensive teams to a SB victory with the help of a great D, I could see that happening for Vick, possibly. They were as Bill Parcells' says ' Bus Drivers' (FYI Gibbs looks for almost the same type of QB).

TheLongshot, I agree. The same thing happened with Elway.

Cunnigham became a passer when he couldnt run as much because of injuries, I fear the same will happen with Vick, when that happens..He will probably live up to the hype.

[Mooka]

Originally posted by SkinsandTerps


Never had Vick and ? They have been to the SB without Vick. Has the world forgotten that ? I would think that Redskins Fans of all people wouldnt have forgotten the 1 point loss in the playoffs to a team they beat a few weeks earlier.

And if you cant see the comparison of Randall and Kordell than I dont know what game you have been watching. People compared Stewart and Cunningham to Vick ever since he was in college, and Stewart to Cunningham since he (Stewart) was in college.

lol I'm talking about their recent team of the last 3 seasons not their SB team in what 1999? that was 6 years ago man cmon man completely different teams.

As for Kordell and Randall lets see.

Kordell had 1 good season in 1997 and a cpl half decent ones. He's only been above an 80 QB rating once in his career. (2002 dont count he only started like 5 games)

Randall is the man. Lemme throw you some stats:
1987 12gs 54.9% 2786yds 23tds 12ints 505rushyds 3tds
1988 16gs 53.8% 3808yds 24tds 16ints 624rush yds 6tds
1989 16gs 54.5% 3400yds 21tds 15ints 621rush yds 4tds
1990 16gs 58.3% 3466yds 30tds 13ints 942rush yds 5tds

He had some injurys bounced back in 92,94 and had the huge season with the vikings in 1998.

Just because their both running QB's their not even in the same ballpark. For the most part Kordell was a terrible QB that could run while Randall has 3 MVP's and could possibly be a HOF QB. Think Kordell and HOF will ever be in the same sentence?

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Originally posted by SkinsandTerps

Cunnigham became a passer when he couldnt run as much because of injuries, I fear the same will happen with Vick, when that happens..He will probably live up to the hype.

No, Cunningham was a passer from the point in time where he became starter.

He was a great passer at times, just not a great READER of defenses and collapsed when sufficient pressure was applied.

You don't throw for more TDs than INTs for your entire early career and throw for over 3,000 yards like he did if you can't pass at all.

Randall threw for 400 plus yards in the Fog Bowl game in 1988. They lost, but it wasn't about his passing skills. And he never had quality RBs and WR tandems until later.

Anthony Toney..lol

I'm a Skins fan but I saw a lot of the guy growing up in Philly.

Mooka,

You nailed it. People remember Randall for the playoff failures(do they remember Marino for the same) but he was NOT a bad passing QB. He could run AND pass, not just run and throw it a bit on the run or throw safe balls.

IMO, Randall was a better QB than McNabb is.

[bnacpa]

Originally posted by Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin
Um, why the lumping in of Randall with Kordell? Cuz they were black and mobile?

Randall, while not the most adroit defense-reader and possessing a long wind-up throw, was one of the most beautiful passers, even from the pocket in the league. Randall blew in the playoffs until he got a lot older, but he was a solid QB who threw for thousands of yards even when Philadelphia's WRs were not on the level of the top corps.

I give a lot of credit to Randall and I my original statement also mentioned Theisman .. but as far as most of the records held by mobile quarterbacks ... they just happen to be Black. I didn't say Randall was like Kordell. I have actually said the exact opposite ... that they were both mobile threats but Kordell never materialized into a passing QB that scared defensed whereas Randall did. But nowhere in my post have I turned this into a race thing ...

For the record ... Vick has the arm strenght to make all the throws ... he just needs to relax and give his receivers more time to get open or be patient with the offense and what is unfolding = better decisions. Many QB's learn to run around behind the pocket to draw in the defenses to open up targets instead of just moving around a bit and then hauling ***** for yards. Farve, McNabb, Flutie, Theisman, and Young all did/do this extremely well.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

bnacpa

OK, I'm not exactly accusing you of making it a race thing. I merely thought you were doing the easy categorization thing based partly on physical attributes(mobility) and race. Not that you were implying anything specific.

[Kosher Ham]

I dont feel it is a race thing either. And when I typed out the names I wasnt thinking that way.

Cunningham had his moments that were unbelievable, he had incredible passing games. But lets not forget that many QBs that are playing from behind often have a lot of yds in games. I am talking about more than that. The intangibles, and the consistency.

Vick simply hasnt show or established that thus far. Nor did Kordell, nor did Cunningham.

[spanishomelette]

Fran Tarkenton was the most irritatingly slippery of mobile quarterbacks that I ever saw..even compared to Cunningham...but that was the 70's

[Westbrook36]

Randall Cunningham was the NFL MVP three times. A more worthy debate would be as to his HOF credentials.....not comparing him to the likes of Michael Vick and Kordell Stewart.

[Mooka]

Originally posted by SkinsandTerps

Vick simply hasnt show or established that thus far. Nor did Kordell, nor did Cunningham.

dammit stop comparing Kordell and Cunningham.
3 MVP's!!!!!!

Kordell SUCKED (ok he had his moments)

[Streater101]

Huh? I only remembering him winning it once, and that was like in 91 I believe. Where do you get 3x's from?

[Shotgun Styles]

Well it sounds like his recievers still suck. Those who bemoan his running should consider that Manning has never played without Harrison. Recievers are key, and Vick doesn't have them. Give him some big time pass catchers, then let's see what he looks like. It worked wonders for McNabb's game...

[dahurt002]

I wonder, if Vick not good passing QB is it because of the lack of WR's on the Falcons or is it because he can't throw. He sure could throw in college.

Let see: Randall became a good passer for the Vikings- Not to do with Chris Carter or Randy Moss- If I can recall Jeff George and Gus Ferotte looked like good QB's throwing to thoughs two.

Kordell: Never was a great passer but he did have Hines Ward to throw to.

McNabb: Last year had his best passing season. Wonder Why? Oh T.O. was his number 1 receiver.

Vick: I wonder if Peerless Price is as good as: T.O., Randy Moss, Hines Wards, or Chris Carter. I DON'T Think SO.

[G-Prime]

Originally posted by BadKarma
He will end up a Redskin at some point in his career.

I hope not.. Because it will probably be years from now and his legs won't be what they once were.. Take away his legs and you have Tim Couch.

[Clutch03]

Vick has great legs as a runner and rifle for an arm. All he needs to do is read defenses better. Like the guy on Playbook said once he does that NOBODY will be able to stop him. He has taken ATL to the playoffs twice while still developing into a good QB. There is a lot of hype about Vick but its well deserved the guy’s potential is insane. He basically is the Lebron James of football … a phenom. He’s a QB that could probably be a top 10 RB, WR, or CB.
Give Vick some decent receivers and you will see his numbers improve dramatically. Remember Elway ran a lot too before he learned how to read the defense better. He only ended up with two Super Bowl rings.

[Shotgun Styles]

Originally posted by Clutch03
Vick has great legs as a runner and rifle for an arm. All he needs to do is read defenses better. Like the guy on Playbook said once he does that NOBODY will be able to stop him. He has taken ATL to the playoffs twice while still developing into a good QB. There is a lot of hype about Vick but its well deserved the guy’s potential is insane. He basically is the Lebron James of football … a phenom. He’s a QB that could probably be a top 10 RB, WR, or CB.
Give Vick some decent receivers and you will see his numbers improve dramatically. Remember Elway ran a lot too before he learned how to read the defense better. He only ended up with two Super Bowl rings.

All that, plus he's still only 25. He's got at least 10 more good years left.

Jordan didn't win without Pippen. Vick needs a big time reciever. Atlanta should have traded for Moss...

[Rocky21]

Originally posted by SkinsHokieFan
Basically if you have ever seen LIVE the amazing things he can do it is unreal.

My favorite live game of his that I saw was West Virginia 2000. He was running all over the place and threw 2 sweet long balls for TD's, which were right on the money.

The man can throw the ball with some amazing accuracy and distance. I have seen nothing like it. Anyone remember the Lions game last year where he threw a 30 yard touchdown pass to a WR tucked away in the corner of the end zone.

I could almost hear the Hokies fight song playing when I read your post.

Vick is so overrated it's off the charts. I doubt he'll ever grasp the WCO. He'll make bad decisions. He'll run too much. He'll get hurt.

Last year Sterling Sharpe said, "Bruce Jenner was a great athlete too but I don't want him as my QB either." Cracked me up.

[bcl05]

Cunningham scared me more than just about any single player the skins faced - he always seemed to come up big against us. He was closer to Steve Young (without the supporting cast) than Vick/Stewart.

Vick reminds me more of Barry Sanders than any quarterback...

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by Streater101
Huh? I only remembering him winning it once, and that was like in 91 I believe. Where do you get 3x's from?

He did win 3, I am pretty sure. Something like '88, '90 (Maybe) and '98.

He won MVPs for the same reason that Vick will, hype over substance. Except in 98 where he finally became a real QB, he desevered it that year.

[TheLongshot]

Originally posted by Clutch03
Vick has great legs as a runner and rifle for an arm. All he needs to do is read defenses better.

From the article, it looks like he needs to work on his mechanics as well. You can have all the arm strength in the world, but if you can't set up correctly, you aren't going to be able to make the throws.

I certainly think he's a talent, and can be a great QB. All I'm saying is that he isn't one right now. People like to hype him up for his running ability, but he needs to be more than just that to win, or else he will be Kordell.

Jason

[Thiebear]

He's getting away with things now.. as he gets older his basics had better become unconcious.

[Lurman]

Originally posted by NavyDave
Somehow I have this feeling he wont have this type of perfomance when he faces the iggles, heck the naysayers here will be rooting for him to have a great game

He could have the exact same throwing performance and still beat the Eagles. He doesn't win games by looking pretty. If his team can keep them in the game, he'll have a shot.

[bnacpa]

Originally posted by TheLongshot


From the article, it looks like he needs to work on his mechanics as well. You can have all the arm strength in the world, but if you can't set up correctly, you aren't going to be able to make the throws.

I certainly think he's a talent, and can be a great QB. All I'm saying is that he isn't one right now. People like to hype him up for his running ability, but he needs to be more than just that to win, or else he will be Kordell.

Jason

Not sure about that ... apparently Kordell's visits to Liberty Avenue Male Bars in Pittsburgh hasn't created an outbreak of Herpes Simplex 7 .... so that already ranks Ron Mexico as the MVP of the CDC in Atlanta :)

[LiveStrongSkins]

Originally posted by dg28daman
He's really not a good QB. He's a great athlete, and as explosive as they come, but he's really a nothing QB.

Apparently you arent the most knowledgable of the sport. Vick is a nothing QB, so what does that make our qb's? ease up on the haterade. I wish a "nothing" qb would take us to to the NFC championship.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Rocky21


I could almost hear the Hokies fight song playing when I read your post.

Vick is so overrated it's off the charts. I doubt he'll ever grasp the WCO. He'll make bad decisions. He'll run too much. He'll get hurt.

Last year Sterling Sharpe said, "Bruce Jenner was a great athlete too but I don't want him as my QB either." Cracked me up.

Did you go to UVA, WVU, or Miami? :laugh:

[zoony]

I'll say it.... I despise Tech. I laugh at their fairweather fans who all of a sudden 'discovered' the program in the late '90s... then claimed to be a fan all along. :rolleyes:

I was at a Tech football game in 1996... I've seen bigger crowds at a HS football game. :laugh:

OK, Now that this is perfectly clear that I'm not a VTech homer (to say the least), VICK IS UNBELIEVABLE. He IS the Atlanta Falcons. He IS the premier QB in the NFL. He carries the entire football team. There would be no Atlanta Falcons without Vick. There would have been no VTech without Vick.

The guy is unbelievable, and I honestly can't believe people are arguing that he isn't a great QB. :rolleyes:

In case you haven't noticed... there is a lot more to being a great QB than throwing a perfect pass. His leadership on that team last year proved it beyond a shadow of a doubt. And his passing continues to improve. But even if he doesnt, the Falcons will be a perrenial playoff contender as long as he's there. Write it down. :)

[Gamebreaker]

Vick will always go to the playoffs and lose until he learns how to read defenses, throw accurate passes, and correct his horrible throwing mechanics. Notice how Vick always seems to lose to teams that have high quality, DISCIPLINED, defenses. The type of defenses that don't give him seams to run through when he can't find or unable to see anybody open. The type of defenses that will pound his ass as soon as he starts running beyond the line of scrimmage.

In the NFC Championship game last season, I KNEW the game was over when on the goaline, Vick tried to scramble the touchdown. Dodged tackles by two LBs, and then got bulldozed by an Eagles lineman. He took forever to get up, and he played scared and in the pocket for the rest of the game.

That also reminds me of his first year in the playoffs, when he met the Eagles once again. He was scrambling, about to score a touchdown and Brian Dawkins came from the other side of the field and knocked the soul out of Vick. His body went so limp I think he only made it into the endzone by the force of his momentum because he was running full speed. After that, Vick made no more highlights, made no more plays, and the Eagles won.

I recall the Bucs handling Vick every time they've played him as well. Good, disciplined and established defenses will always beat Atlanta until Vick learns how to become a quarterback and not just a running back behind center.

[Bazooka Tooth]

Originally posted by dg28daman
He's really not a good QB. He's a great athlete, and as explosive as they come, but he's really a nothing QB.

Boo!! Bad statement. And I even went to WVU...

[MorgantownHokie88]

The guy has a bad first day of practice, ESPN runs front page story about how bad VIck was because their reporter just happen to be there covering camp. Then we talk about this stupid news, which doesn't prove anything 5 threads deep and it's all over the radio.

I don't know what to think. On one hand this shows how much we yearn for football. On the other hand, it shows just how much stock is put into all the media reports and prognastication. I love how we get bent out of shape because a media pundit just voices his opinion about our team. And the fact is he or anybody else for that fact has no idea what is going to happen.

Vick is a Pro Bowl QB, how defintely has taken a so-so team to the playoffs for two our of three years now. You put Vick on the Eagles with their defense and TO, and you get the same outcome as McNabb.

I have no real point, just rambling, heck, I yearn for football talk. :)

[Gamebreaker]

I disagree, McNabb is a better passer than Vick. But even as an Eagle, he would probably still lose to the Patriots in the Superbowl.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Vick will always go to the playoffs and lose until he learns how to read defenses, throw accurate passes, and correct his horrible throwing mechanics. Notice how Vick always seems to lose to teams that have high quality, DISCIPLINED, defenses. The type of defenses that don't give him seams to run through when he can't find or unable to see anybody open. The type of defenses that will pound his ass as soon as he starts running beyond the line of scrimmage.

In the NFC Championship game last season, I KNEW the game was over when on the goaline, Vick tried to scramble the touchdown. Dodged tackles by two LBs, and then got bulldozed by an Eagles lineman. He took forever to get up, and he played scared and in the pocket for the rest of the game.

That also reminds me of his first year in the playoffs, when he met the Eagles once again. He was scrambling, about to score a touchdown and Brian Dawkins came from the other side of the field and knocked the soul out of Vick. His body went so limp I think he only made it into the endzone by the force of his momentum because he was running full speed. After that, Vick made no more highlights, made no more plays, and the Eagles won.

I recall the Bucs handling Vick every time they've played him as well. Good, disciplined and established defenses will always beat Atlanta until Vick learns how to become a quarterback and not just a running back behind center.

This is a real good point. Defenses that stay in their lane, and play smart will take care of Vick.

Mainly because he still doesn't have anyone to really pass to except for Crumpler. Other then Price can anyone else name an Atlanta WR?

I remember Dwight Freeney sacked Vick 7 times in a game up in Syracuse in 2000. He definitley has had his down moments, but its the potential for great ones which gets him all the hype

[MorgantownHokie88]

McNabb is a better passer, better touch on the ball, but Vick is a lot better runner. McNabb may break a run now in then for 20 yards. Vick would break the same run for 50. Vick still is a good passer though, not a top passer, but good enough. Only knock against Mike is he is fragile, where as McNabb can take more hits because he's got more bulk.

Either of them I would take in a heartbeat for the Skins.

[WilberMarshall]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Vick will always go to the playoffs and lose until he learns how to read defenses, throw accurate passes, and correct his horrible throwing mechanics. Notice how Vick always seems to lose to teams that have high quality, DISCIPLINED, defenses. The type of defenses that don't give him seams to run through when he can't find or unable to see anybody open. The type of defenses that will pound his ass as soon as he starts running beyond the line of scrimmage.

In the NFC Championship game last season, I KNEW the game was over when on the goaline, Vick tried to scramble the touchdown. Dodged tackles by two LBs, and then got bulldozed by an Eagles lineman. He took forever to get up, and he played scared and in the pocket for the rest of the game.

That also reminds me of his first year in the playoffs, when he met the Eagles once again. He was scrambling, about to score a touchdown and Brian Dawkins came from the other side of the field and knocked the soul out of Vick. His body went so limp I think he only made it into the endzone by the force of his momentum because he was running full speed. After that, Vick made no more highlights, made no more plays, and the Eagles won.

I recall the Bucs handling Vick every time they've played him as well. Good, disciplined and established defenses will always beat Atlanta until Vick learns how to become a quarterback and not just a running back behind center.

http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/a227.gif Everybody is a critic... I will take Vick ANYDAY...

Ask those that have played against him... they will tell you he is NOT just hype...

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
Vick will always go to the playoffs and lose until he learns how to read defenses, throw accurate passes, and correct his horrible throwing mechanics. Notice how Vick always seems to lose to teams that have high quality, DISCIPLINED, defenses. The type of defenses that don't give him seams to run through when he can't find or unable to see anybody open. The type of defenses that will pound his ass as soon as he starts running beyond the line of scrimmage.

In the NFC Championship game last season, I KNEW the game was over when on the goaline, Vick tried to scramble the touchdown. Dodged tackles by two LBs, and then got bulldozed by an Eagles lineman. He took forever to get up, and he played scared and in the pocket for the rest of the game.

That also reminds me of his first year in the playoffs, when he met the Eagles once again. He was scrambling, about to score a touchdown and Brian Dawkins came from the other side of the field and knocked the soul out of Vick. His body went so limp I think he only made it into the endzone by the force of his momentum because he was running full speed. After that, Vick made no more highlights, made no more plays, and the Eagles won.

I recall the Bucs handling Vick every time they've played him as well. Good, disciplined and established defenses will always beat Atlanta until Vick learns how to become a quarterback and not just a running back behind center.

Granted, but they can afford to sit back and play disciplined why? Because they have the defensive talent and because Vick's WR's STINK. If the Falcons ever get WR's around Vick that can keep the defense honest the Falcons will win the Super Bowl(As long as thier defense keeps them in games, because when its close it's all about Vick).

Take the Eagles for instance. They kept losing in the playoffs because once you play against Championship calibre defenses they will neutralize your weak points. The Eagles had terrible WR's, and with those terrible WR's they could get by average defenses. But when they played the Bucs, Panthers, or Patriots all those defenses did was shut down their running game and make McNabb beat them with subpar recieving. The Eagles might have won the Superbowl if Owens wasn't hurt.

[bedlamVR]

You can have the talent you want at WR it meen squat if you QB cannot get the ball to them . Ý watched Ý think four games of the Falcons last year and some of the game he was thowing lazers and then lame ducks .

Ý wouldnt take Vick in a heartbeat i think he is a flash in the pan a RB who can throw a bit . You say he has been able to take the Falcons to the playoffs in the last couple of years but for those not keeping score the entire NFC has sucked big time for the last two or three years . We were in the playoff pýcture up untill week 13 and we finished 6-10 and finished strongly not a good sign for the confrence ...

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by bedlamVR
You can have the talent you want at WR it meen squat if you QB cannot get the ball to them . Ý watched Ý think four games of the Falcons last year and some of the game he was thowing lazers and then lame ducks .

Ý wouldnt take Vick in a heartbeat i think he is a flash in the pan a RB who can throw a bit . You say he has been able to take the Falcons to the playoffs in the last couple of years but for those not keeping score the entire NFC has sucked big time for the last two or three years . We were in the playoff pýcture up untill week 13 and we finished 6-10 and finished strongly not a good sign for the confrence ...

It's funny, because what you describe sounds almost exactly like criticisms of a young McNabb. He would throw a great pass one minute, and then the next play he'd throw a groundball at the reciever's feet. Now, everyone agrees McNabb is one of the best QB's in the league despite the fact that before T.O. his numbers were not all that impressive. A great WR can make a bad QB average, an average QB good, and a good QB great.

What kind of logic is that? Vick is not a good QB because the conference 'sucked'? I wasn't aware that you had to be in a super conference for your talents to be recognized as good. By that logic, the Redskins defense might not be as good as it seems because of the NFC's record.

:rolleyes:

Besides, the Falcons when Vick was healthy are always contenders even in a 'weak' conference. When they beat Green Bay in the 02-03 season the conference wasn't weak. You had Green Bay, Philadelphia, Tampa Bay, all 3 teams who had a shot at the superbowl. Atlanta went in to LAMBEAU field and became the first team to beat GB at home I believe.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by WilberMarshall


http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/a227.gif Everybody is a critic... I will take Vick ANYDAY...

Ask those that have played against him... they will tell you he is NOT just hype...

This seems to be the rallying cry aganist anyone who doesn't bow down to the greatness which is Mike Vick. :rolleyes:

Come on, the teams with sorry defenses are the ones that say he isn't hype. The teams with good, disciplined defenses don't fear him and never did.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by TheSteve


Granted, but they can afford to sit back and play disciplined why? Because they have the defensive talent and because Vick's WR's STINK. If the Falcons ever get WR's around Vick that can keep the defense honest the Falcons will win the Super Bowl(As long as thier defense keeps them in games, because when its close it's all about Vick).

Take the Eagles for instance. They kept losing in the playoffs because once you play against Championship calibre defenses they will neutralize your weak points. The Eagles had terrible WR's, and with those terrible WR's they could get by average defenses. But when they played the Bucs, Panthers, or Patriots all those defenses did was shut down their running game and make McNabb beat them with subpar recieving. The Eagles might have won the Superbowl if Owens wasn't hurt.

If Vick throws an inaccurate pass, or doesn't have the vision to see a reciever is open, it isn't that recievers fault no matter how bad he is. Let's not pretend Vick's recievers are always the reason why he'll sit in the pocket and eventually take a sack. An inability to read to defense is definitely a part of that. Yet I will admit Peerless Price in not a #1 reciever, never was, and I said so the moment they paid him all that money.

Vick simply hasn't developed enough as a quarterback to be able to read a defense and pick it apart when it sits in a zone daring him to run.

You bring up McNabb, yet he had a difficult time reading defenses earlier in his career as well.

[Westbrook36]

The continued excuses for Vick are laughable. Seems like there is always a reason why he just can't become a passing QB. Ok, so now his WRs suck? Look at the effort which has been payed to the offensive side of the ball the last several years.

Drafting a RB in round one even though they had Dunn. Trading a number 1 for Price who had a great year before being vicktimized in hotlanta. Then they go and use two more number 1's on WRs to surround with Vick with the best talent they can get. Add Crumpler to the equation as well.

That is THREE CONSECUTIVE NUMBER 1's FOR WRS!!!!

When do the excuses end? I guess if Jenkins and White never put up numbers, every member of ES with "Hokies" in their username will jump into every Vick thread and excuse his horrid passing by talking about how young he still is, how much potential he has, and reminising about plays they seen when he was in college.

[a_good_brotha]

Originally posted by Die Hard


Then you missed all of last preseason... where he stunk up the joint.

And then the Falcons went on to play the Eagles in the NFC Championship game. :)

I care little of what happens in the pre-season any more. Same with free agents saying they'll "never play for team XXX again".

I've seen it too many times.


I was getting ready to say that.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker


If Vick throws an inaccurate pass, or doesn't have the vision to see a reciever is open, it isn't that recievers fault no matter how bad he is. Let's not pretend Vick's recievers are always the reason why he'll sit in the pocket and eventually take a sack. An inability to read to defense is definitely a part of that. Yet I will admit Peerless Price in not a #1 reciever, never was, and I said so the moment they paid him all that money.

Vick simply hasn't developed enough as a quarterback to be able to read a defense and pick it apart when it sits in a zone daring him to run.

You bring up McNabb, yet he had a difficult time reading defenses earlier in his career as well.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said. Vick is not a great passer yet, but he's good enough for the Falcons to beat a very good team. If Vick ever becomes a great passer(He has the physical tools) he will be better than McNabb.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by TheSteve


I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said. Vick is not a great passer yet, but he's good enough for the Falcons to beat a very good team. If Vick ever becomes a great passer(He has the physical tools) he will be better than McNabb.

If I ever grow a 13 inch dong, I'll be a better porn star than Jonnie Holmes. ;)

I mean, since we are talking strictly in fantasy world here.

[Painkiller]

Vick will never be what some are making him out to be...the second coming of Christ. There is too much hype around him. If he remains healthy. He's going to be an average, to above average NFL QB, who puts up average, to above average numbers his whole career. Only time will tell for sure. I think his style of play is going to get him a career ending injury eventually. I believe in the scrambling QB, not the running QB. I don't like the idea, of a team's entire season riding on one individual. Look at what happened to Atlanta when he broke his leg. They had nobody else to turn too.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


If I ever grow a 13 inch dong, I'll be a better porn star than Jonnie Holmes. ;)

I mean, since we are talking strictly in fantasy world here.

Explain again why it's fantasy that Vick can become a great passer? Wasn't the same thing said about McNabb? Instead of coming up with pithy 3rd grade comebacks, provide some substance to your arguments besides the usual Eagles homerism. You just have you hands too deep in McNabbs pants to be able to acknowledge that someone could be better if given time. McNabb isn't even a lock to be in the hall of fame. Please post his stats pre- Owners and post-Owens if you think he's all that. They aren't that impressive and yet I'm not going to say McNabb is a terrible QB. but he's certainly not at a level where he can't be surpassed by a younger QB that has obvious physical talents he'll never have.

[WilberMarshall]

Without Vick, Atlanta will be the SKINS an "Also Ran"...

Yes, he ain't Tom Brady...

Like Peyton Manning, if faced with a good defense, he can be made to look ordinary.

People who hate on Vick based on a Preseason report are just suffering from Chicken Little disease...

Out of the 32 teams in the league, Vick can start for 29 of them...

Look at the empirical evidence...

With Vick and without. Nuff Said!

[Westbrook36]

Vick wouldn't start for the following teams:

Eagles
Patriots
Vikings
Panthers
Chargers
Patriots
Jets
Packers
Bengals

[zoony]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Vick wouldn't start for the following teams:

Eagles
Patriots
Vikings
Panthers
Chargers
Patriots
Jets
Packers
Bengals

:doh:

ahh yes, iggles fans playing GM. I remember them booing donovan when he was drafted.

Dude, there are only two QB's who would start over Vick in the entire NFL. And one of them I'm not so sure about

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by zoony


:doh:

ahh yes, iggles fans playing GM. I remember them booing donovan when he was drafted.

Dude, there are only two QB's who would start over Vick in the entire NFL. And one of them I'm not so sure about

15 fans booed McNabb as a radio stunt. I surely didn't boo.

Anyway, Vick wouldn't go on those teams and start this year over the current starting QB. Tis a fact.

[Mooka]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
Vick wouldn't start for the following teams:

Eagles
Patriots
Vikings
Panthers
Chargers
Patriots
Jets
Packers
Bengals

i think you meant Colts over the one of the Patriots. at least I hope you did. :D

Chargers and Panthers?

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Mooka


i think you meant Colts over the one of the Patriots. at least I hope you did. :D

Chargers and Panthers?

See, I even forgot the Colts who Vick wouldn't start for.

Vick simply wouldn't beat out Brees and Delhomme who have been in the same system for years and have led their teams to success within said system.

Shoot, how many years is Vick going to need to get a grasp on the basic nuances of the WCO?

I'll say what many others are afraid to say. He's not smart enough to be an elite QB in the NFL.

[LiveStrongSkins]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker


This seems to be the rallying cry aganist anyone who doesn't bow down to the greatness which is Mike Vick. :rolleyes:

Come on, the teams with sorry defenses are the ones that say he isn't hype. The teams with good, disciplined defenses don't fear him and never did.

No team in the NFL just calls vick hype. Teams media is in charge of that. There isnt one defensive coordinator in this league who doesnt build his whole gameplan around vick. I seem to remember last year him running all over the carolina discipline defense. It's easy to drink the vick haterade these days, but the bottom line is hes one of 3 players in the league that can truely change the reflection of the game in a second.

[authentic]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


See, I even forgot the Colts who Vick wouldn't start for.

Vick simply wouldn't beat out Brees and Delhomme who have been in the same system for years and have led their teams to success within said system.

Shoot, how many years is Vick going to need to get a grasp on the basic nuances of the WCO?

I'll say what many others are afraid to say. He's not smart enough to be an elite QB in the NFL.

I have to agree, i think if he doesn't improve soon, then he won't last long as a starter in the NFL. He has all of the God given talent but as a QB, you must have the intellegence and savey to be in the elite, especially once his physical abilities begin to diminish.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by LivestrongSkins


No team in the NFL just calls vick hype. Teams media is in charge of that. There isnt one defensive coordinator in this league who doesnt build his whole gameplan around vick. I seem to remember last year him running all over the carolina discipline defense. It's easy to drink the vick haterade these days, but the bottom line is hes one of 3 players in the league that can truely change the reflection of the game in a second.

The Eagles didn't do anything exotic in the NFC Championship game. They took away the run, and Vicks running lanes. They made him, GASP, beat him with his arm, which he has been proving for 4 years now that he simply can't do.

Question: How many times in Vicks career has he thrown for more than 2 tds in any single game?

You'll be surprised by the answer. I'm not, however.

[SkinsHokieFan]

We are still on this? :laugh:

Oh lordy lordy.

I don't Vick being a 1st year man in the WCO last year as well as really having one viable target (Crumpler), as we are all seeing Price was much more a result of having Moulds on the other side in Buffalo, and based on 1 practice report by a dubious reporter at best, and now Vick is garbage.

If Lenny P comes out with a similar report on McNabb or Ramsey about their first day, I am gonna laugh my ass off as we spin for Ramsey or as WB36 spins for McNabb.

I'll put it this way. Micheal Vick is the most exciting player in the NFL, is in Mel Kiper's words "the holy grail of QB's" by his PHYSICAL ability to run and his PHYSICAL ability to throw the ball.

Does that mean he is smart enough to be an effective passing QB? No it doesn't.

As I have stated a few times in this thread Vick almost switched positions his freshmen year at Tech because he was having trouble with the playbook. Do I believe the Falcons run as basic a WCO as possible? Yup.

Do I also think given time with the same coaches in the same O with the same players he will also improve his ability to read defenses and pick them apart? Yup.

Do I also think a D-coordinator has to game plan for him NOW? Yup

Until he gets the mental part down, he is a PHYSICAL freak, ala a Julius Peppers type athlete. Fast, strong, riddiculously accurate arm.

Do I also think this because he took the college I went to unbelievable heights and put it on the football map and I got to see him play live for a whole season? You bet

Doesn't mean I think he is the greatest QB ever.

[scottb]

He did win 3, I am pretty sure. Something like '88, '90 (Maybe) and '98.

Cunningham never won unanimously (and was twice awarded the MVP by the Maxwell Club of Philadelphia…hmmmmm). Not sure he was ever the "best" choice, although you could make a case for 98 even though most of the selectors picked Davis.

1988
• Boomer Esiason, QB - Cincinnati (Pro Football Writers Association of America, Associated Press, "The Sporting News")
• Roger Craig, RB - San Francisco (Newspaper Enterprise Association)
• Randall Cunningham, QB - Philadelphia (Maxwell Club of Philadelphia)


1990
• Randall Cunningham, QB - Philadelphia (Pro Football Writers Association of America)
• Joe Montana, QB - San Francisco (Associated Press)
• Jerry Rice, WR - San Francisco ("The Sporting News")


1998
• Terrell Davis, RB - Denver (Pro Football Writers Association of America, Associated Press, "The Sporting News")
• Randall Cunningham, QB - Minnesota (Maxwell Club of Philadelphia)


As for Vick, he is still too young for such impassioned inflexible opinions. He seems to get the job done now and he's been a winner at all levels. He may be great before it's all said and done (he's a long ways from great at the moment)...it's too early to tell. But it would be foolish to ignore his awesome physical abilities and unique potential.

[Eagles_Legendz]

Originally posted by MorgantownHokie88
McNabb is a better passer, better touch on the ball, but Vick is a lot better runner. McNabb may break a run now in then for 20 yards. Vick would break the same run for 50. Vick still is a good passer though, not a top passer, but good enough. Only knock against Mike is he is fragile, where as McNabb can take more hits because he's got more bulk.

Either of them I would take in a heartbeat for the Skins.

I disagree with that, though it is essentially arguing semantics. Vick is a more explosive runner, but they are different in how they use their mobility. McNabb has tailored his game more to the likes of Elway and Young at this point (not comparing them as QBs, but simply what McNabb attempts to do), by buying time behind the line of scrimmage to give his WRs time to get open. He uses his legs to improve his ability to complete passes. He is a more disciplined runner than Vick and can shake off more tacklers, though he won't make as many highlight real plays or run for as many yards (see his completion against Dallas or against Atlanta to Freddie in the NFC Championship game).

Anyway, I think Gamebreaker has hit the nail on the head with his posts on Vick.

I'd take McNabb over Cunningham because even though he wasn't as gifted physically, he is more stable. You could see the look of defeat on Cunningham's eyes when he got behind, and you never knew what he'd do during the game (for better or worse). I don't even think Randall knew sometimes what he was going to do next.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Originally posted by Eagles_Legendz


I disagree with that, though it is essentially arguing semantics. Vick is a more explosive runner, but they are different in how they use their mobility. McNabb has tailored his game more to the likes of Elway and Young at this point (not comparing them as QBs, but simply what McNabb attempts to do), by buying time behind the line of scrimmage to give his WRs time to get open. He uses his legs to improve his ability to complete passes. He is a more disciplined runner than Vick and can shake off more tacklers, though he won't make as many highlight real plays or run for as many yards (see his completion against Dallas or against Atlanta to Freddie in the NFC Championship game).



I think that is a fair assessment. Although it did take Steve Young about 10 years to realize he could scramble to buy time and get more yards then if he took off.

Young didn't even become a full time starter till he was 32

[Westbrook36]

I think his ears are still ringing:

http://home.comcast.net/~hotchkisstrio/jackedup0zt.gif

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
I think his ears are still ringing:

http://home.comcast.net/~hotchkisstrio/jackedup0zt.gif

Guess I need to find the Garcia Clip from last season...

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by SkinsandTerps


Guess I need to find the Garcia Clip from last season...

Which one is that? I did some looking but all I found were these:

http://img229.echo.cx/img229/6461/crumpled.gif http://img229.echo.cx/img229/8757/crumpledby20.gif

[Kosher Ham]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


Which one is that? I did some looking but all I found were these:

http://img229.echo.cx/img229/6461/crumpled.gif http://img229.echo.cx/img229/8757/crumpledby20.gif


:cheers:

You know the one. Dont try that coy stuff with me. We all know.

[Westbrook36]

Dawk surprised me in that Cleveland game. Normally he saves his worst moments for the biggest games. :laugh:

[zoony]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


15 fans booed McNabb as a radio stunt. I surely didn't boo.

Anyway, Vick wouldn't go on those teams and start this year over the current starting QB. Tis a fact.

so also what you're saying is that Culpepper, Delhomme, Brees, Pennington, Favre, Palmer could go to Atlanta and displace Michael Vick?

:jerk:

c'mon, be serious.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by zoony


so also what you're saying is that Culpepper, Delhomme, Brees, Pennington, Favre, Palmer could go to Atlanta and displace Michael Vick?

:jerk:

c'mon, be serious.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all, zoony. See, YOU are the one that said Vick would start on 30 out of 32 teams. YOU are saying he'd go to a team with an established QB in an established system and he'd unseat the starter.

Now that it's plainly obvious how buffoonish a comment that turned out to be, you are attempting to turn it around by attributing an argument to me that I never even remotely claimed.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by ChocolateCitySkin
Michael Vick = Cordell Stewart?

Please, even the Vick haters will admit he is far and beyond what Stewart ever came close to.

[Gamebreaker]

That clip doesn't do Dawkins' hit justice. He may a filthy Eagle, but damn, I was impressed with how badly he neutered Vick with that hit. I remember watching the game, and they kept showing replay after replay of the hit, and the replay that focused on Vick's back is the best one. You could see his body shudder at the impact and then just go limp. Vick didn't get up for a LOOONG time, and he didn't even attempt to run for the rest of the game.

I think if we played the Falcons, he would take a hit like that from either Taylor, Arrington, or Washington and go into a shell once again. He doesn't have the bulk like McNabb or Culpepper do, to scramble as much as he does and take the pounding that comes along with it.

[Gamebreaker]

True, Kordell is no where near Vick in running ability and he wasn't much better as a passer either.

Yet notice how as Kordell got older, and his physical skills began to diminish, he became less and less of a threat. If Vick doesn't improve, don't be surprised if the same doesn't happen to him.

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker
That clip doesn't do Dawkins' hit justice. He may a filthy Eagle, but damn, I was impressed with how badly he neutered Vick with that hit. I remember watching the game, and they kept showing replay after replay of the hit, and the replay that focused on Vick's back is the best one. You could see his body shudder at the impact and then just go limp. Vick didn't get up for a LOOONG time, and he didn't even attempt to run for the rest of the game.

I think if we played the Falcons, he would take a hit like that from either Taylor, Arrington, or Washington and go into a shell once again. He doesn't have the bulk like McNabb or Culpepper do, to scramble as much as he does and take the pounding that comes along with it.

This pic is a little better:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/2152/vic7qe.jpg

[SkinsHokieFan]

I am personally a big fan of this play



width = 300 height = 250

[zoony]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


No, that's not what I'm saying at all, zoony. See, YOU are the one that said Vick would start on 30 out of 32 teams. YOU are saying he'd go to a team with an established QB in an established system and he'd unseat the starter.

Now that it's plainly obvious how buffoonish a comment that turned out to be, you are attempting to turn it around by attributing an argument to me that I never even remotely claimed.

Have fun with your Drew Brees is better than Michael Vick theory... let us know how it works out for you this season :laugh:

And don't back-pedal. It makes you look feeble. Your argument was that there are several QB's in the league that are better than Michael Vick. You're wrong. Now you're attempting some lame excuse like "what I meant was that he couldn't come in to an established system and unseat the starter immediately" :rolleyes:

[Clutch03]

Originally posted by Westbrook36


See, I even forgot the Colts who Vick wouldn't start for.

Vick simply wouldn't beat out Brees and Delhomme who have been in the same system for years and have led their teams to success within said system.

Shoot, how many years is Vick going to need to get a grasp on the basic nuances of the WCO?

I'll say what many others are afraid to say. He's not smart enough to be an elite QB in the NFL.

You have got to be kidding me. Vick couldn’t beat out Brees or Delhomme? No defenses game plan against Brees and Delhomme like they do Vick. Brees give you one good year … and now he is better then Vick! Flutie took Brees’ starting spot before last year … Flutie!!!

And what inside source do you have to say that he is not smart enough to be an elite QB? I seem to remember Elway and Young using their legs before they understood the nuances of the NFL. They must not be smart either! If they are smart what makes them any different then Vick? I can only think of one thing … but I’ll leave that to someone else to open that can of worms.

Vick is physically a freak of nature … very similar to Lavar or Taylor at their positions. You can’t teach physical attributes … but you can learn how to play the game better with experience. With more experience Vick will grow and learn to use is legs when needed (like Elway, Young, and MCNABB!!). And then maybe he can beat out Delhomme and Brees … :doh:

[Westbrook36]

Originally posted by zoony


Have fun with your Drew Brees is better than Michael Vick theory... let us know how it works out for you this season :laugh:

And don't back-pedal. It makes you look feeble. Your argument was that there are several QB's in the league that are better than Michael Vick. You're wrong. Now you're attempting some lame excuse like "what I meant was that he couldn't come in to an established system and unseat the starter immediately" :rolleyes:

Well, Zoony, just because you'd like to ignore all the quotes previous and frame my argument to suit your needs, it doesn't make it correct. Reading comprehension is the key.

Someone said that Vick would start for 29 out of 32 teams in the league and then you said he'd start for 30 out of 32 teams and I quickly disagreed and posted the TEAMS that he wouldn't start for.

Did you notice I never even mentioned players?

[kroiz]

Originally posted by Westbrook36
I think his ears are still ringing:

http://home.comcast.net/~hotchkisstrio/jackedup0zt.gif

I wonder if you would have posted that had that TD counted? What would the score of the game have been had that run not been called back by a very questionable holding call that was 20 yards away from the play?