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twa
November-11th-2005, 10:27 PM
COMMENTARY

December 2005

Who Is Lying About Iraq?

Norman Podhoretz

Among the many distortions, misrepresentations, and outright falsifications that have emerged from the debate over Iraq, one in particular stands out above all others. This is the charge that George W. Bush misled us into an immoral and/or unnecessary war in Iraq by telling a series of lies that have now been definitively exposed.

What makes this charge so special is the amazing success it has enjoyed in getting itself established as a self-evident truth even though it has been refuted and discredited over and over again by evidence and argument alike. In this it resembles nothing so much as those animated cartoon characters who, after being flattened, blown up, or pushed over a cliff, always spring back to life with their bodies perfectly intact. Perhaps, like those cartoon characters, this allegation simply cannot be killed off, no matter what.

Nevertheless, I want to take one more shot at exposing it for the lie that it itself really is. Although doing so will require going over ground that I and many others have covered before, I hope that revisiting this well-trodden terrain may also serve to refresh memories that have grown dim, to clarify thoughts that have grown confused, and to revive outrage that has grown commensurately dulled.




The main “lie” that George W. Bush is accused of telling us is that Saddam Hussein possessed an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction, or WMD as they have invariably come to be called. From this followed the subsidiary “lie” that Iraq under Saddam’s regime posed a two-edged mortal threat. On the one hand, we were informed, there was a distinct (or even “imminent”) possibility that Saddam himself would use these weapons against us and/or our allies; and on the other hand, there was the still more dangerous possibility that he would supply them to terrorists like those who had already attacked us on 9/11 and to whom he was linked.

This entire scenario of purported deceit has been given a new lease on life by the indictment in late October of I. Lewis (Scooter) Libby, then chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Libby stands accused of making false statements to the FBI and of committing perjury in testifying before a grand jury that had been convened to find out who in the Bush administration had “outed” Valerie Plame, a CIA agent married to the retired ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, IV. The supposed purpose of leaking this classified information to the press was to retaliate against Wilson for having “debunked” (in his words) “the lies that led to war.”

Now, as it happens, Libby was not charged with having outed Plame but only with having lied about when and from whom he first learned that she worked for the CIA. Moreover, Patrick J. Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor who brought the indictment against him, made a point of emphasizing that

[t]his indictment is not about the war. This indictment is not about the propriety of the war. And people who believe fervently in the war effort, people who oppose it, people who have mixed feelings about it should not look to this indictment for any resolution of how they feel or any vindication of how they feel.

This is simply an indictment that says, in a national-security investigation about the compromise of a CIA officer’s identity that may have taken place in the context of a very heated debate over the war, whether some person—a person, Mr. Libby—lied or not.

No matter. Harry Reid, the Democratic leader in the Senate, spoke for a host of other opponents of the war in insisting that

[t]his case is bigger than the leak of classified information. It is about how the Bush White House manufactured and manipulated intelligence in order to bolster its case for the war in Iraq and to discredit anyone who dared to challenge the President.

Yet even stipulating—which I do only for the sake of argument—that no weapons of mass destruction existed in Iraq in the period leading up to the invasion, it defies all reason to think that Bush was lying when he asserted that they did. To lie means to say something one knows to be false. But it is as close to certainty as we can get that Bush believed in the truth of what he was saying about WMD in Iraq.

How indeed could it have been otherwise? George Tenet, his own CIA director, assured him that the case was “a slam dunk.” This phrase would later become notorious, but in using it, Tenet had the backing of all fifteen agencies involved in gathering intelligence for the United States. In the National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) of 2002, where their collective views were summarized, one of the conclusions offered with “high confidence” was that

Iraq is continuing, and in some areas expanding its chemical, biological, nuclear, and missile programs contrary to UN resolutions.

The intelligence agencies of Britain, Germany, Russia, China, Israel, and—yes—France all agreed with this judgment. And even Hans Blix—who headed the UN team of inspectors trying to determine whether Saddam had complied with the demands of the Security Council that he get rid of the weapons of mass destruction he was known to have had in the past—lent further credibility to the case in a report he issued only a few months before the invasion:

The discovery of a number of 122-mm chemical rocket warheads in a bunker at a storage depot 170 km southwest of Baghdad was much publicized. This was a relatively new bunker, and therefore the rockets must have been moved there in the past few years, at a time when Iraq should not have had such munitions. . . . They could also be the tip of a submerged iceberg. The discovery of a few rockets does not resolve but rather points to the issue of several thousands of chemical rockets that are unaccounted for.

Blix now claims that he was only being “cautious” here, but if, as he now also adds, the Bush administration “misled itself” in interpreting the evidence before it, he at the very least lent it a helping hand.




So, once again, did the British, the French, and the Germans, all of whom signed on in advance to Secretary of State Colin Powell’s reading of the satellite photos he presented to the UN in the period leading up to the invasion. Powell himself and his chief of staff, Lawrence Wilkerson, now feel that this speech was the low point of his tenure as Secretary of State. But Wilkerson (in the process of a vicious attack on the President, the Vice President, and the Secretary of Defense for getting us into Iraq) is forced to acknowledge that the Bush administration did not lack for company in interpreting the available evidence as it did:

I can’t tell you why the French, the Germans, the Brits, and us thought that most of the material, if not all of it, that we presented at the UN on 5 February 2003 was the truth. I can’t. I’ve wrestled with it. [But] when you see a satellite photograph of all the signs of the chemical-weapons ASP—Ammunition Supply Point—with chemical weapons, and you match all those signs with your matrix on what should show a chemical ASP, and they’re there, you have to conclude that it’s a chemical ASP, especially when you see the next satellite photograph which shows the UN inspectors wheeling in their white vehicles with black markings on them to that same ASP, and everything is changed, everything is clean. . . . But George [Tenet] was convinced, John McLaughlin [Tenet’s deputy] was convinced, that what we were presented [for Powell’s UN speech] was accurate.

Going on to shoot down a widespread impression, Wilkerson informs us that even the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research (INR) was convinced:

People say, well, INR dissented. That’s a bunch of bull. INR dissented that the nuclear program was up and running. That’s all INR dissented on. They were right there with the chems and the bios.

In explaining its dissent on Iraq’s nuclear program, the INR had, as stated in the NIE of 2002, expressed doubt about

Iraq’s efforts to acquire aluminum tubes [which are] central to the argument that Baghdad is reconstituting its nuclear-weapons program. . . . INR is not persuaded that the tubes in question are intended for use as centrifuge rotors . . . in Iraq’s nuclear-weapons program.

But, according to Wilkerson,

The French came in in the middle of my deliberations at the CIA and said, we have just spun aluminum tubes, and by God, we did it to this RPM, et cetera, et cetera, and it was all, you know, proof positive that the aluminum tubes were not for mortar casings or artillery casings, they were for centrifuges. Otherwise, why would you have such exquisite instruments?

In short, and whether or not it included the secret heart of Hans Blix, “the consensus of the intelligence community,” as Wilkerson puts it, “was overwhelming” in the period leading up to the invasion of Iraq that Saddam definitely had an arsenal of chemical and biological weapons, and that he was also in all probability well on the way to rebuilding the nuclear capability that the Israelis had damaged by bombing the Osirak reactor in 1981.

Additional confirmation of this latter point comes from Kenneth Pollack, who served in the National Security Council under Clinton. “In the late spring of 2002,” Pollack has written,

I participated in a Washington meeting about Iraqi WMD. Those present included nearly twenty former inspectors from the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM), the force established in 1991 to oversee the elimination of WMD in Iraq. One of the senior people put a question to the group: did anyone in the room doubt that Iraq was currently operating a secret centrifuge plant? No one did. Three people added that they believed Iraq was also operating a secret calutron plant (a facility for separating uranium isotopes).

No wonder, then, that another conclusion the NIE of 2002 reached with “high confidence” was that

Iraq could make a nuclear weapon in months to a year once it acquires sufficient weapons-grade fissile material.1




But the consensus on which Bush relied was not born in his own administration. In fact, it was first fully formed in the Clinton administration. Here is Clinton himself, speaking in 1998:

If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction program.

Here is his Secretary of State Madeline Albright, also speaking in 1998:

Iraq is a long way from [the USA], but what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risk that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.

Here is Sandy Berger, Clinton’s National Security Adviser, who chimed in at the same time with this flat-out assertion about Saddam:

He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.

Finally, Clinton’s Secretary of Defense, William Cohen, was so sure Saddam had stockpiles of WMD that he remained “absolutely convinced” of it even after our failure to find them in the wake of the invasion in March 2003.

Nor did leading Democrats in Congress entertain any doubts on this score. A few months after Clinton and his people made the statements I have just quoted, a group of Democratic Senators, including such liberals as Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, and John Kerry, urged the President

to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons-of-mass-destruction programs.

Nancy Pelosi, the future leader of the Democrats in the House, and then a member of the House Intelligence Committee, added her voice to the chorus:

Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons-of-mass-destruction technology, which is a threat to countries in the region, and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.

This Democratic drumbeat continued and even intensified when Bush succeeded Clinton in 2001, and it featured many who would later pretend to have been deceived by the Bush White House. In a letter to the new President, a number of Senators led by Bob Graham declared:

There is no doubt that . . . Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical, and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf war status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.

Senator Carl Levin also reaffirmed for Bush’s benefit what he had told Clinton some years earlier:

Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations, and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.

Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton agreed, speaking in October 2002:

In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical- and biological-weapons stock, his missile-delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al-Qaeda members.

Senator Jay Rockefeller, vice chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee, agreed as well:

There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. . . . We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.

Even more striking were the sentiments of Bush’s opponents in his two campaigns for the presidency. Thus Al Gore in September 2002:

We know that [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.

And here is Gore again, in that same year:

Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter, and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.

Now to John Kerry, also speaking in 2002:

I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force—if necessary—to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.




Perhaps most startling of all, given the rhetoric that they would later employ against Bush after the invasion of Iraq, are statements made by Senators Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd, also in 2002:

Kennedy: We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.

Byrd: The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical- and biological-warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons.2

Liberal politicians like these were seconded by the mainstream media, in whose columns a very different tune would later be sung. For example, throughout the last two years of the Clinton administration, editorials in the New York Times repeatedly insisted that

without further outside intervention, Iraq should be able to rebuild weapons and missile plants within a year [and] future military attacks may be required to diminish the arsenal again.

The Times was also skeptical of negotiations, pointing out that it was

hard to negotiate with a tyrant who has no intention of honoring his commitments and who sees nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons as his country’s salvation.

So, too, the Washington Post, which greeted the inauguration of George W. Bush in January 2001 with the admonition that

[o]f all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous—or more urgent—than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.3




All this should surely suffice to prove far beyond any even unreasonable doubt that Bush was telling what he believed to be the truth about Saddam’s stockpile of WMD. It also disposes of the fallback charge that Bush lied by exaggerating or hyping the intelligence presented to him. Why on earth would he have done so when the intelligence itself was so compelling that it convinced everyone who had direct access to it, and when hardly anyone in the world believed that Saddam had, as he claimed, complied with the sixteen resolutions of the Security Council demanding that he get rid of his weapons of mass destruction?

Another fallback charge is that Bush, operating mainly through Cheney, somehow forced the CIA into telling him what he wanted to hear. Yet in its report of 2004, the bipartisan Senate Intelligence Committee, while criticizing the CIA for relying on what in hindsight looked like weak or faulty intelligence, stated that it

did not find any evidence that administration officials attempted to coerce, influence, or pressure analysts to change their judgments related to Iraq’s weapons-of-mass-destruction capabilities.

The March 2005 report of the equally bipartisan Robb-Silberman commission, which investigated intelligence failures on Iraq, reached the same conclusion, finding

no evidence of political pressure to influence the intelligence community’s pre-war assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs. . . . [A]nalysts universally asserted that in no instance did political pressure cause them to skew or alter any of their analytical judgments.

Still, even many who believed that Saddam did possess WMD, and was ruthless enough to use them, accused Bush of telling a different sort of lie by characterizing the risk as “imminent.” But this, too, is false: Bush consistently rejected imminence as a justification for war.4 Thus, in the State of the Union address he delivered only three months after 9/11, Bush declared that he would “not wait on events while dangers gather” and that he would “not stand by, as peril draws closer and closer.” Then, in a speech at West Point six months later, he reiterated the same point: “If we wait for threats to materialize, we will have waited too long.” And as if that were not clear enough, he went out of his way in his State of the Union address in 2003 (that is, three months before the invasion), to bring up the word “imminent” itself precisely in order to repudiate it:

Some have said we must not act until the threat is imminent. Since when have terrorists and tyrants announced their intentions, politely putting us on notice before they strike? If this threat is permitted to fully and suddenly emerge, all actions, all words, and all recriminations would come too late. Trusting in the sanity and restraint of Saddam Hussein is not a strategy, and it is not an option.

What of the related charge that it was still another “lie” to suggest, as Bush and his people did, that a connection could be traced between Saddam Hussein and the al-Qaeda terrorists who had attacked us on 9/11? This charge was also rejected by the Senate Intelligence Committee. Contrary to how its findings were summarized in the mainstream media, the committee’s report explicitly concluded that al Qaeda did in fact have a cooperative, if informal, relationship with Iraqi agents working under Saddam. The report of the bipartisan 9/11 commission came to the same conclusion, as did a comparably independent British investigation conducted by Lord Butler, which pointed to “meetings . . . between senior Iraqi representatives and senior al-Qaeda operatives.”5




Which brings us to Joseph C. Wilson, IV and what to my mind wins the palm for the most disgraceful instance of all.

The story begins with the notorious sixteen words inserted—after, be it noted, much vetting by the CIA and the State Department—into Bush’s 2003 State of the Union address:

The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.

This is the “lie” Wilson bragged of having “debunked” after being sent by the CIA to Niger in 2002 to check out the intelligence it had received to that effect. Wilson would later angrily deny that his wife had recommended him for this mission, and would do his best to spread the impression that choosing him had been the Vice President’s idea. But Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, through whom Wilson first planted this impression, was eventually forced to admit that “Cheney apparently didn’t know that Wilson had been dispatched.” (By the time Kristof grudgingly issued this retraction, Wilson himself, in characteristically shameless fashion, was denying that he had ever “said the Vice President sent me or ordered me sent.”) And as for his wife’s supposed non-role in his mission, here is what Valerie Plame Wilson wrote in a memo to her boss at the CIA:

My husband has good relations with the PM [the prime minister of Niger] and the former minister of mines . . . , both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity.

More than a year after his return, with the help of Kristof, and also Walter Pincus of the Washington Post, and then through an op-ed piece in the Times under his own name, Wilson succeeded, probably beyond his wildest dreams, in setting off a political firestorm.

In response, the White House, no doubt hoping to prevent his allegation about the sixteen words from becoming a proxy for the charge that (in Wilson’s latest iteration of it) “lies and disinformation [were] used to justify the invasion of Iraq,” eventually acknowledged that the President’s statement “did not rise to the level of inclusion in the State of the Union address.” As might have been expected, however, this panicky response served to make things worse rather than better. And yet it was totally unnecessary—for the maddeningly simple reason that every single one of the sixteen words at issue was true.

That is, British intelligence had assured the CIA that Saddam Hussein had tried to buy enriched uranium from the African country of Niger. Furthermore—and notwithstanding the endlessly repeated assertion that this assurance has now been discredited—Britain’s independent Butler commission concluded that it was “well-founded.” The relevant passage is worth quoting at length:

a. It is accepted by all parties that Iraqi officials visited Niger in 1999.

b. The British government had intelligence from several different sources indicating that this visit was for the purpose of acquiring uranium. Since uranium constitutes almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports, the intelligence was credible.

c. The evidence was not conclusive that Iraq actually purchased, as opposed to having sought, uranium, and the British government did not claim this.




As if that were not enough to settle the matter, Wilson himself, far from challenging the British report when he was “debriefed” on his return from Niger (although challenging it is what he now never stops doing6), actually strengthened the CIA’s belief in its accuracy. From the Senate Intelligence Committee report:

He [the CIA reports officer] said he judged that the most important fact in the report [by Wilson] was that Niger officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Niger prime minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium.

And again:

The report on [Wilson’s] trip to Niger . . . did not change any analysts’ assessments of the Iraq-Niger uranium deal. For most analysts, the information in the report lent more credibility to the original CIA reports on the uranium deal.

This passage goes on to note that the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research—which (as we have already seen) did not believe that Saddam Hussein was trying to develop nuclear weapons—found support in Wilson’s report for its “assessment that Niger was unlikely to be willing or able to sell uranium to Iraq.” But if so, this, as the Butler report quoted above points out, would not mean that Iraq had not tried to buy it—which was the only claim made by British intelligence and then by Bush in the famous sixteen words.

The liar here, then, was not Bush but Wilson. And Wilson also lied when he told the Washington Post that he had unmasked as forgeries certain documents given to American intelligence (by whom it is not yet clear) that supposedly contained additional evidence of Saddam’s efforts to buy uranium from Niger. The documents did indeed turn out to be forgeries; but, according to the Butler report,

[t]he forged documents were not available to the British government at the time its assessment was made, and so the fact of the forgery does not undermine [that assessment].7

More damning yet to Wilson, the Senate Intelligence Committee discovered that he had never laid eyes on the documents in question:

[Wilson] also told committee staff that he was the source of a Washington Post article . . . which said, “among the envoy’s conclusions was that the documents may have been forged because ‘the dates were wrong and the names were wrong.’” Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the “dates were wrong and the names were wrong” when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports.

To top all this off, just as Cheney had nothing to do with the choice of Wilson for the mission to Niger, neither was it true that, as Wilson “confirmed” for a credulous New Republic reporter, “the CIA circulated [his] report to the Vice President’s office,” thereby supposedly proving that Cheney and his staff “knew the Niger story was a flatout lie.” Yet—the mind reels—if Cheney had actually been briefed on Wilson’s oral report to the CIA (which he was not), he would, like the CIA itself, have been more inclined to believe that Saddam had tried to buy yellowcake uranium from Niger.

So much for the author of the best-selling and much acclaimed book whose title alone—The Politics of Truth: Inside the Lies that Led to War and Betrayed My Wife’s CIA Identity—has set a new record for chutzpah.




But there is worse. In his press conference on the indictment against Libby, Patrick Fitzgerald insisted that lying to federal investigators is a serious crime both because it is itself against the law and because, by sending them on endless wild-goose chases, it constitutes the even more serious crime of obstruction of justice. By those standards, Wilson—who has repeatedly made false statements about every aspect of his mission to Niger, including whose idea it was to send him and what he told the CIA upon his return; who was then shown up by the Senate Intelligence Committee as having lied about the forged documents; and whose mendacity has sent the whole country into a wild-goose chase after allegations that, the more they are refuted, the more they keep being repeated—is himself an excellent candidate for criminal prosecution.

And so long as we are hunting for liars in this area, let me suggest that we begin with the Democrats now proclaiming that they were duped, and that we then broaden out to all those who in their desperation to delegitimize the larger policy being tested in Iraq—the policy of making the Middle East safe for America by making it safe for democracy—have consistently used distortion, misrepresentation, and selective perception to vilify as immoral a bold and noble enterprise and to brand as an ignominious defeat what is proving itself more and more every day to be a victory of American arms and a vindication of American ideals.

—November 7, 2005


NORMAN PODHORETZ is the editor-at-large of COMMENTARY and the author of ten books. The most recent, The Norman Podhoretz Reader, edited by Thomas L. Jeffers, appeared in 2004. His essays on the Bush Doctrine and Iraq, including “World War IV: How It Started, What It Means, and Why We Have to Win” (September 2004) and “The War Against World War IV” (February 2005), can be found by clicking here.

1 Hard as it is to believe, let alone to reconcile with his general position, Joseph C. Wilson, IV, in a speech he delivered three months after the invasion at the Education for Peace in Iraq Center, offhandedly made the following remark: “I remain of the view that we will find biological and chemical weapons and we may well find something that indicates that Saddam’s regime maintained an interest in nuclear weapons.”

2 Fuller versions of these and similar statements can be found at http://www.theconversationcafe.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-3134.htmland. Another source is http://www.rightwingnews.com/quotes/demsonwmds.php.

3 These and numerous other such quotations were assembled by Robert Kagan in a piece published in the Washington Post on October 25, 2005.

4 Whereas both John Edwards, later to become John Kerry’s running mate in 2004, and Jay Rockefeller, the ranking Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, actually did use the word in describing the threat posed by Saddam.

5 In early November, the Democrats on the Senate Intelligence Committee, who last year gave their unanimous assent to its report, were suddenly mounting a last-ditch effort to take it back on this issue (and others). But to judge from the material they had already begun leaking by November 7, when this article was going to press, the newest “Bush lied” case is as empty and dishonest as the one they themselves previously rejected.

6 Here is how he put it in a piece in the Los Angeles Times written in late October of this year to celebrate the indictment of Libby: “I knew that the statement in Bush’s speech . . . was not true. I knew it was false from my own investigative trip to Africa. . . . And I knew that the White House knew it.”

7 More extensive citations of the relevant passages from the Butler report can be found in postings by Daniel McKivergan at www.worldwidestandard.com. I have also drawn throughout on materials cited by the invaluable Stephen F. Hayes in the Weekly Standard.

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Crazyhorse1
November-12th-2005, 12:48 PM
Absolutely nothing new here-- completely duplicitous. Begins with obvious that Libby was not indicted for covering up attempt to manufacture evidence to start a war and uses that to suggest WH didn't manufacture evidence-- an argument for idiots. The logic gets worse as argument proceeds. Clinton thought Saddam had weapons so Bush didn't lie, etc. Dems thought so too, so Bush didn't lie (inspite of fact congress got info from Bush, whom they believed). The entire article is a hail Mary defense of the Bush administration by a bag man of same.

Cdowwe
November-12th-2005, 02:28 PM
Its just a good reminder to all those who hold the signs in protest "Bush Lied", they should be holding signs that also say "Liberal members of Congress Lied too"

twa
November-12th-2005, 05:05 PM
Absolutely nothing new here-- completely duplicitous. Begins with obvious that Libby was not indicted for covering up attempt to manufacture evidence to start a war and uses that to suggest WH didn't manufacture evidence-- an argument for idiots. The logic gets worse as argument proceeds. Clinton thought Saddam had weapons so Bush didn't lie, etc. Dems thought so too, so Bush didn't lie (inspite of fact congress got info from Bush, whom they believed). The entire article is a hail Mary defense of the Bush administration by a bag man of same.

IF Libby was indicted for covering up,Why no conspiracy charges,and WHY did the prosecutor SPECIFICTLY say it no evidence of such.

The Prime Minister of Niger STILL claims Iraq SOUGHT yellowcake .

chomerics
November-12th-2005, 05:05 PM
Its just a good reminder to all those who hold the signs in protest "Bush Lied", they should be holding signs that also say "Liberal members of Congress Lied too"

I don't deny that, but they did not have the same information the president had. . . just an observation.

chomerics
November-12th-2005, 05:21 PM
IF Libby was indicted for covering up,Why no conspiracy charges,and WHY did the prosecutor SPECIFICTLY say it no evidence of such.

You need to watch the press conference, and understand the charge. Libby was not in fact cleared of conspiricy charges, and the investegation is still ongoing.



The Prime Minister of Niger STILL claims Iraq SOUGHT yellowcake .
ANother falsehood perpertrated by Fox and Right Wing media. First, it was not the PM, but a government official. Second, he did not say the SOUGHT, he claims that he THOUGHT Baghdad Bob was going to inquire about yellowcake, but it was NEVER brought up in the talks.

read about all the RNCs lies and false talking points here, there are real sources with real dates and quotes.

http://mediamatters.org/topics/plame-controversy.html

Edit: removed the list, they are on the webpage for those who want to see it.

Thiebear
November-12th-2005, 05:28 PM
It was close but I believe Chomerics wins on the longest unreadable post...

Cdowwe
November-12th-2005, 05:34 PM
It was close but I believe Chomerics wins on the longest unreadable post...

:laugh: He makes them so long and boring because he knows people like me will be too lazy to read them and have some response.

twa
November-12th-2005, 05:37 PM
Seems the facts are not on your side. ;)




British Butler Report: "In General, We Found That The Original Intelligence Material Was Correctly Reported In [Joint Intelligence Committee] Assessments. ... We Should Record In Particular That We Have Found No Evidence Of Deliberate Distortion Or Of Culpable Negligence. ... We Found No Evidence Of JIC Assessments And The Judgements Inside Them Being Pulled In Any Particular Direction To Meet The Policy Concerns Of Senior Ofï¬cials On The JIC." ("Review Of Intelligence On Weapons Of Mass Destruction," Report Of A Committee Of Privy Counsellors, 7/14/04, p. 110)


Robb-Silberman Commission: "The Commission Found No Evidence Of Political Pressure To Influence The Intelligence Community's Pre-War Assessments Of Iraq's Weapons Programs." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05)


Bipartisan Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Report: "The Committee Did Not Find Any Evidence That Administration Officials Attempted To Coerce, Influence Or Pressure Analysts To Change Their Judgments Related To Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction Capabilities." ("Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq," U.S. Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, 7/7/04, Pg. 284-285)


Senate Report: "The Committee Found No Evidence That The Vice President's Visits To The Central Intelligence Agency Were Attempts To Pressure Analysts, Were Perceived As Intended To Pressure Analysts By Those Who Participated In The Briefings On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction Programs, Or Did Pressure Analysts To Change Their Assessments." ("Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq," U.S. Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, 7/7/04, Pg. 284-285)


Duelfer Report: Saddam Sought To "Recreate Iraq's WMD Capability" When Sanctions Were Lifted And "Aspired To Develop A Nuclear Capability." (Comprehensive Report Of The Special Advisor To The DCI On Iraq's WMD, 9/30/04, Pg. 1)


Former Clinton Director For Defense Policy And Arms Control, National Security Council Staff, Peter Feaver: "How Could Even The All-Powerful Neocons Have Manipulated The Intelligence Estimates Of The Clinton Administration, French Intelligence, British Intelligence, German Intelligence And All The Other 'Co-Conspirators' Who Concurred On The Fundamentals Of The Bush Assessment?" (Peter D. Feaver, Op-Ed, "The Fog Of WMD," The Washington Post, 1/28/04)


Former Secretary Of State Colin Powell: "The Best Intelligence Information Available To The President And All Of His Advisors, Available To The International Community, Available To The UN, Available To The United Kingdom And France And Germany And All Others, Left No Doubt In Our Mind That [Saddam] Had Stockpiles ..." (Committee On Foreign Relations, U.S. Senate, Hearing, 1/27/05)

twa
November-12th-2005, 06:07 PM
It was the Prime minister...Chom
The one man directly involved dissagrees with you :laugh:


the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium

The former ambassador said that Mayaki did meet with the Iraqi delegation but never discussed what was meant by "expanding commercial relations."The former ambassador said that because Mayaki was wary of discussing any trade issues with a country under United Nations (UN) sanctions, he made a successful effort to steer the conversation away from a discussion of trade with the Iraqi delegation

chomerics
November-12th-2005, 06:48 PM
It was the Prime minister...Chom
The one man directly involved dissagrees with you :laugh:


the Nigerien Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium

The former ambassador said that Mayaki did meet with the Iraqi delegation but never discussed what was meant by "expanding commercial relations."The former ambassador said that because Mayaki was wary of discussing any trade issues with a country under United Nations (UN) sanctions, he made a successful effort to steer the conversation away from a discussion of trade with the Iraqi delegation

Umm, did you read the post? It corroberated the story as I said it. It was also reported everywhere as a Niger govt. official, not the PM.

Now, you just posted EXACTLY what I was claiming, are you STILL going to say that the yellowcake story is not a ruse?


Do you also think you could provide links for your quotes, I always do, it is only fair in return.

chomerics
November-12th-2005, 06:56 PM
Seems the facts are not on your side. ;)




British Butler Report: "In General, We Found That The Original Intelligence Material Was Correctly Reported In [Joint Intelligence Committee] Assessments. ... We Should Record In Particular That We Have Found No Evidence Of Deliberate Distortion Or Of Culpable Negligence. ... We Found No Evidence Of JIC Assessments And The Judgements Inside Them Being Pulled In Any Particular Direction To Meet The Policy Concerns Of Senior Ofï¬cials On The JIC." ("Review Of Intelligence On Weapons Of Mass Destruction," Report Of A Committee Of Privy Counsellors, 7/14/04, p. 110)

Kin of doesn't say it was true now does it :doh: No, evidence of deliberate distorstion does not really say it was fact now does it?



Robb-Silberman Commission: "The Commission Found No Evidence Of Political Pressure To Influence The Intelligence Community's Pre-War Assessments Of Iraq's Weapons Programs." (Charles S. Robb And Laurence H. Silberman, The Commission On The Intelligence Capabilities Of The United States Regarding Weapons Of Mass Destruction, 3/31/05)

Bipartisan Senate Select Committee On Intelligence Report: "The Committee Did Not Find Any Evidence That Administration Officials Attempted To Coerce, Influence Or Pressure Analysts To Change Their Judgments Related To Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction Capabilities." ("Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq," U.S. Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, 7/7/04, Pg. 284-285)


Senate Report: "The Committee Found No Evidence That The Vice President's Visits To The Central Intelligence Agency Were Attempts To Pressure Analysts, Were Perceived As Intended To Pressure Analysts By Those Who Participated In The Briefings On Iraq's Weapons Of Mass Destruction Programs, Or Did Pressure Analysts To Change Their Assessments." ("Report On The U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments On Iraq," U.S. Senate Select Committee On Intelligence, 7/7/04, Pg. 284-285)


Duelfer Report: Saddam Sought To "Recreate Iraq's WMD Capability" When Sanctions Were Lifted And "Aspired To Develop A Nuclear Capability." (Comprehensive Report Of The Special Advisor To The DCI On Iraq's WMD, 9/30/04, Pg. 1)


Former Clinton Director For Defense Policy And Arms Control, National Security Council Staff, Peter Feaver: "How Could Even The All-Powerful Neocons Have Manipulated The Intelligence Estimates Of The Clinton Administration, French Intelligence, British Intelligence, German Intelligence And All The Other 'Co-Conspirators' Who Concurred On The Fundamentals Of The Bush Assessment?" (Peter D. Feaver, Op-Ed, "The Fog Of WMD," The Washington Post, 1/28/04)


Former Secretary Of State Colin Powell: "The Best Intelligence Information Available To The President And All Of His Advisors, Available To The International Community, Available To The UN, Available To The United Kingdom And France And Germany And All Others, Left No Doubt In Our Mind That [Saddam] Had Stockpiles ..." (Committee On Foreign Relations, U.S. Senate, Hearing, 1/27/05)

The entire rest of your post equates that the administration put PRESSURE on people to come out with the version they wanted. I never claimed that, go through all 6000+ posts and see for yourself. I have NEVER stated that they put pressure on intel to get what they wanted. I have stated repeatedly that in fact they purposely misled America on the immediat threat, and put knows false intel in speeches and public statements. That is an entirely different story then what you are claiming.

So your rebuttle has so far

1. Agreed with my premist, that Iraq did not attempt to acquite yellowcake, something you falsely stated earlier

2. Nothing to refute the premist that the administration put known false information into public speeches. Instead you tried to infer that I said they pressured intel, a statement which is ALSO catagorically false.

Maybe you should re-read the thread and re-examine my position, because you seen to not understand what I am saying, or you are purposely trying to skate out of your earlier statements by equating me to saying something I have not said.

Gichin13
November-12th-2005, 07:45 PM
It was close but I believe Chomerics wins on the longest unreadable post...

:laugh:

I switched from using the mouse wheel to using page down on that one.

Frankly, I am sympathetic to some attacks on Bush's credibility and nevertheless I am fully sick of this topic. Yes, they cooked the books, but it seems like everyone was worried about the guy. Yes they screwed some stuff up getting in there and on the war plan, but stop crying. We are there and we need to make sure we end this correctly. All the Monday morning QB tears are really annoying me personally at this point.

stevenaa
November-12th-2005, 07:55 PM
:laugh:

I switched from using the mouse wheel to using page down on that one.

Frankly, I am sympathetic to some attacks on Bush's credibility and nevertheless I am fully sick of this topic. Yes, they cooked the books, but it seems like everyone was worried about the guy. Yes they screwed some stuff up getting in there and on the war plan, but stop crying. We are there and we need to make sure we end this correctly. All the Monday morning QB tears are really annoying me personally at this point.


Agreed. I'm so worn out by this crap. It is a complete game of he said/she said. Nothing is going to come of this and it is a complete waste of time and energy. We're there, we need to focus on getting it done.

Tarhog
November-12th-2005, 08:11 PM
You guys need to use LINKS to those lengthy articles. You know NO ONE is going to read through a 10 page article (in fact, I'd be shocked if you all even read them yourselves), and you're wasting bandwidth posting it.

Chopper Dave
November-12th-2005, 08:40 PM
Agreed. I'm so worn out by this crap. It is a complete game of he said/she said. Nothing is going to come of this and it is a complete waste of time and energy. We're there, we need to focus on getting it done.

One could say the war we're arguing about is a complete waste of time and energy...

chomerics
November-12th-2005, 08:41 PM
It was close but I believe Chomerics wins on the longest unreadable post...

Yes, I have since fixed it, I didn't realize how long it was when I hit the ctrl-A function ;)

webnarc
November-13th-2005, 08:47 AM
Yes they screwed some stuff up getting in there and on the war plan, but stop crying. We are there and we need to make sure we end this correctly. All the Monday morning QB tears are really annoying me personally at this point.

Good thing there aren't more than 2000 dead American service men, I'm sure that would REALLY annoy you.

Prosperity
November-13th-2005, 09:11 AM
First of all, this article seems like it is building up a strawman to tear down. Bush lied can also mean Bush lied about Iraq having relevant links to Al Qaida, not just the one that was presented earlier (WMD's). Either way, Politicians never lie, they just phrase everything in such a way that it will only leave an impression of what they want to lead you to believe, in the worst case scenario they will always have scapegoats to take the fall, whether it is the CIA or some faceless government agent. I think if you go back an read everything shrub said then you will find that he did not say anything that he could not put under "I screwed up and I won't admit it, but I will blame the CIA" or "well technically this wasn't a lie, even though it had a deceptive impression."

Prosperity
November-13th-2005, 09:15 AM
You guys need to use LINKS to those lengthy articles. You know NO ONE is going to read through a 10 page article (in fact, I'd be shocked if you all even read them yourselves), and you're wasting bandwidth posting it.

Actually I did read it, political pieces are really quick reads because you can ALWAYS see the same hackneyed bs coming, nothing really new.

twa
November-13th-2005, 09:36 AM
Umm, did you read the post? It corroberated the story as I said it. It was also reported everywhere as a Niger govt. official, not the PM.

Now, you just posted EXACTLY what I was claiming, are you STILL going to say that the yellowcake story is not a ruse?


Do you also think you could provide links for your quotes, I always do, it is only fair in return.


The quotes were from the senate intelligence report,sorry I assumed you had read it since I have referenced and linked to it many times ;)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_chapter2-b.htm



This should clear up any misconceptions about whether Bush Knowingly lied.
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

chomerics
November-13th-2005, 02:08 PM
The quotes were from the senate intelligence report,sorry I assumed you had read it since I have referenced and linked to it many times ;)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/congress/2004_rpt/iraq-wmd-intell_chapter2-b.htm



This should clear up any misconceptions about whether Bush Knowingly lied.
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

TWA, the factcheck link corroberates EXACTLY what I stated??? Seriously, how many times are you going to skate around this issue???


The Senate report said the CIA then asked a "former ambassador" to go to Niger and report. That is a reference to Joseph Wilson -- who later became a vocal critic of the President's 16 words. The Senate report said Wilson brought back denials of any Niger-Iraq uranium sale, and argued that such a sale wasn't likely to happen. But the Intelligence Committee report also reveals that Wilson brought back something else as well -- evidence that Iraq may well have wanted to buy uranium.

Wilson reported that he had met with Niger's former Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki, who said that in June 1999 he was asked to meet with a delegation from Iraq to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between the two countries.
Based on what Wilson told them, CIA analysts wrote an intelligence report saying former Prime Minister Mayki "interpreted 'expanding commercial relations' to mean that the (Iraqi) delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales." In fact, the Intelligence Committee report said that "for most analysts" Wilson's trip to Niger "lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal."

He "interperted", he "thought", is there any difference? Lets look at the facts.

1. The documents were forged.
2. The British intel WAS based on the same documents and meeting
3. The meeting never discussed yellowcake
4. There were THREE corroberating reports which all stated the exact same thing
5. Bush had the words removed from his public statements at least three times by the CIA.
6. The qualifier of "British Intel" was used instead of "our intel" this allowed Bush to use the statement, then use his "mushroom cloud" speech.

What part do you not understand? there is in fact NO evidence that Iraq was seeking yellowcake, yet you have insisted it three times??? Seriously, WTF?

twa
November-13th-2005, 03:13 PM
TWA, the factcheck link corroberates EXACTLY what I stated??? Seriously, how many times are you going to skate around this issue???



He "interperted", he "thought", is there any difference? Lets look at the facts.

1. The documents were forged.
2. The British intel WAS based on the same documents and meeting
3. The meeting never discussed yellowcake
4. There were THREE corroberating reports which all stated the exact same thing
5. Bush had the words removed from his public statements at least three times by the CIA.
6. The qualifier of "British Intel" was used instead of "our intel" this allowed Bush to use the statement, then use his "mushroom cloud" speech.

What part do you not understand? there is in fact NO evidence that Iraq was seeking yellowcake, yet you have insisted it three times??? Seriously, WTF?


Lets review:
1 yes the documents were likely forgeries
2 no the british intell was not based on the forgery

from factcheck
Both the US and British investigations make clear that some forged Italian documents, exposed as fakes soon after Bush spoke, were not the basis for the British intelligence Bush cited, or the CIA's conclusion that Iraq was trying to get uranium.

3 &4
Yellowcake was not disscussed by the PM because he stated he avoided it,but was sure that was what th Iraquis were after.

Mayaki steered the conversation away from any discussion of trade.

them, CIA analysts wrote an intelligence report saying former Prime Minister Mayki "interpreted 'expanding commercial relations' to mean that the (Iraqi) delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales." In fact, the Intelligence Committee report said that "for most analysts" Wilson's trip to Niger "lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal."

To wrap up: Every investigation has come to the conclusion Iraq SOUGHT yellwcake......except yours ;) ;)

Committee Report: He (the intelligence officer) said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerian officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerian Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.

At this point the CIA also had received "several intelligence reports" alleging that Iraq wanted to buy uranium from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and from Somalia, as well as from Niger. The Intelligence Committee concluded that "it was reasonable for analysts to assess that Iraq may have been seeking uranium from Africa based on Central Intelligence Agency reporting and other available intelligence."


http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

chomerics
November-13th-2005, 10:01 PM
Lets review:

1 yes the documents were likely forgeries
2 no the british intell was not based on the forgery


Did you read the British report? Did you read the British white paper and come to your own conclusions, or did you just assume this? I ask because it explicitly states the EXACT SAME INTEL the US looked at. It stated that an Iraqi diplomat met with a NIger govt. official. It was based on the EXACT SAME THING we KNEW WAS FALSE!!!! I do not know how to stress this enough, because you seem completely unable to accept this as a fact. We saw the exact same intel, and came to the conclusion that this transaction did not take place!!!



3 &4
Yellowcake was not disscussed by the PM because he stated he avoided it,but was sure that was what th Iraquis were after.

Where do you get off saying that he was "sure that was what the Iraqi's were after" Seriously? How do you jump to the conclusion that they were after yellowcake if it was never brought up? In fact, there is absolutely NO evidence that they were after yellowcake, and it was NEVER reported that they were after yellowcake.

I don't know HOW to say this any clearer, but there was no talk of yellowcake, and evey YOUR sources say there were not. Yet you feel compelled to add "he was sure it was what the Iraqi's were after" :doh: Seriously man, you need to stop keep asserting this FALSE point.



Mayaki steered the conversation away from any discussion of trade

them, CIA analysts wrote an intelligence report saying former Prime Minister Mayki "interpreted 'expanding commercial relations' to mean that the (Iraqi) delegation wanted to discuss uranium yellowcake sales." In fact, the Intelligence Committee report said that "for most analysts" Wilson's trip to Niger "lent more credibility to the original Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) reports on the uranium deal."

Do you understand what was written in the report? Do you understand what was stated? There was ABSOLUTELY NO TALK OF YELLOWCAKE!!!!! Beacuse some PM "thought" that may be a reason for them to initiate conversation is NOT credible intel. You don't put other thoughts in intel reports, then publically use treat them as facts ESPECIALLY when the person stated unequivicably that it WAS NOT BROUGHT UP!!!!!



To wrap up: Every investigation has come to the conclusion Iraq SOUGHT yellwcake......except yours ;) ;)

NO THEY DID NOT!!!!!! Read the Senate Intel Report and start on page 36!!!! SHow me where the CIA "came to the conclusion that Iraq "sought" to get yellowcake.



Committee Report: He (the intelligence officer) said he judged that the most important fact in the report was that the Nigerian officials admitted that the Iraqi delegation had traveled there in 1999, and that the Nigerian Prime Minister believed the Iraqis were interested in purchasing uranium, because this provided some confirmation of foreign government service reporting.

At this point the CIA also had received "several intelligence reports" alleging that Iraq wanted to buy uranium from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and from Somalia, as well as from Niger. The Intelligence Committee concluded that "it was reasonable for analysts to assess that Iraq may have been seeking uranium from Africa based on Central Intelligence Agency reporting and other available intelligence."


http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

And the information was PROVEN FALSE after they had THREE corroberating stories which all agreed that it did jot happen!!! Initially, in 01' they thought it, but when they looked into the matter, they found out it was not correct. Why would Niger even contemplating selling yellowcake to Iraq? All of their mineral is strictly watched by the IAEA, and what would they have to gain? Seriously, you need to think about things like this, because there was absolutely no reason to sell to Iraq. The consequences would be horrendous for Niger, and their officials knew this.

Thiebear
November-14th-2005, 05:46 AM
Chomerics: When i click on Factcheck.org it states:
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html



Bush's "16 Words" on Iraq & Uranium: He May Have Been Wrong But He Wasn't Lying
Two intelligence investigations show Bush had plenty of reason to believe what he said in his 2003 State of the Union Address.


You can quote Wilsons book all you want but there are so many intelligence reports and other intel you can not. We went through pages 50-53 and pages 450-455 of the intelligence report.. We even went through the 1st link below in my signature. But you keep saying the same tired stuff. backed up by his own book.

Art Monk Fan
November-14th-2005, 10:13 AM
It is obvious to anyone who looks objectively at the evidence that President Bush did NOT lie to build the case against Iraq. The true shame of this netire situation is that it detracts from the very serious need we now have to fix our intelligence agencies. Every single intelligence agancy world-wide agreed that Iraq had stockpiles of chemical and biological agents and they all suspected some level of advancement towards nuclear weapons as well. The real story here is that everyone had this wrong! We should be debating what is wrong with the intelligence community and how we fix it for the future. This useless political attack wastes everyone's time and energy and distracts us from the very serious issue that should be before us.

Air Force Cane
November-14th-2005, 10:38 AM
Even McCain said the democrats are lying about it.

nearly 100 democrats voted FOR the war- now they are pulling a Kerry by flip flopping and claiming they didn't vote for the war.

which is nearly traitorous as it is putting our troops in greater harm- the terrorists see this happening and increase their attacks and the American people see this and become more demoralized.

the left WANTS Iraq to turn into another Vietnam- for their own political gain..

Taylor 36
November-14th-2005, 10:53 AM
Absolutely nothing new here-- completely duplicitous. Begins with obvious that Libby was not indicted for covering up attempt to manufacture evidence to start a war and uses that to suggest WH didn't manufacture evidence-- an argument for idiots. The logic gets worse as argument proceeds. Clinton thought Saddam had weapons so Bush didn't lie, etc. Dems thought so too, so Bush didn't lie (inspite of fact congress got info from Bush, whom they believed). The entire article is a hail Mary defense of the Bush administration by a bag man of same.

Ah, it's the illiterate professor from Arkansas back again. Dude, do yourself a favor and just turn off your computer. You have been caught many of times with your gross lies (so, please pot, don't try to talk about kettle Bush) and you consistantly prove how ignorant and feeble minded you are with your lack of knowledge, facts, and basic reading comprehension skills. You are a joke. Do yourself a favor and get the last laugh by not posting your b.s. again :doh:

Taylor 36
November-14th-2005, 11:02 AM
Chomerics: When i click on Factcheck.org it states:
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html



You can quote Wilsons book all you want but there are so many intelligence reports and other intel you can not. We went through pages 50-53 and pages 450-455 of the intelligence report.. We even went through the 1st link below in my signature. But you keep saying the same tired stuff. backed up by his own book.

Chom sees and hears only what he wants to hear when he is not stoned. When he is stoned, he's even worse. He will never see the FACTS in front of him, because he refuses to look. That is just his way. He would argue that the sky is purple using some known frauds article to support him, even if you stuck him in a cloudless field and pointed at the blue sky.

It is obvious he did not read the entire article, nor did he take the time to read the links. But, of course, he would try to call you out for not doing the same when he posts one of his completely falsely slanted left-winged pieces. Go figure!!!

Thiebear
November-14th-2005, 11:11 AM
http://intelligence.senate.gov/

Read the 30 page short version of the 521? page report.
It states that even the information they were putting together AFTER the war was still wrong and they couldnt keep it straight, wrong intelligence with miscommunications..

An entire subcommittee looking into miscommunications had miscommunications...
Yet you Blame Bush for something that everyone still admits was global. AND, you state with glee that he did it on purpose.... enjoy...

Art Monk Fan
November-14th-2005, 11:20 AM
http://intelligence.senate.gov/

Read the 30 page short version of the 521? page report.
It states that even the information they were putting together AFTER the war was still wrong and they couldnt keep it straight, wrong intelligence with miscommunications..

And entire subcommittee looking into miscommunications had miscommunications...
Yet you Blame Bush for something that everyone still admits was global. AND, you state with glee that he did it on purpose.... enjoy...
How the hell is it that the entire free press of the U.S. is sleeping on what is the most important story of our generation. The massive failure of every intelligence agency world-wide is totally ignored in the pursuit of a groundless political attack. :doh: :mad:

Taylor 36
November-14th-2005, 12:30 PM
How the hell is it that the entire free press of the U.S. is sleeping on what is the most important story of our generation. The massive failure of every intelligence agency world-wide is totally ignored in the pursuit of a groundless political attack. :doh: :mad:

It has been a long time since the US media was concerned about truth more than sales. Liberals are more gullible by nature, so they buy this trash easily. It pays more for the papers and the tv ad time to bash a conservative, facts or no facts.

Art Monk Fan
November-14th-2005, 12:35 PM
It has been a long time since the US media was concerned about truth more than sales. Liberals are more gullible by nature, so they buy this trash easily. It pays more for the papers and the tv ad time to bash a conservative, facts or no facts.
Forgetting the whole left vs. right thing, you just can't tell me there's a bigger story out there than the complete failure of the entire world-wide intelligence apparatus.

twa
November-14th-2005, 05:33 PM
Forgetting the whole left vs. right thing, you just can't tell me there's a bigger story out there than the complete failure of the entire world-wide intelligence apparatus.

Ah...but did they fail or are they just hiding the truth from us?

REMLIK?

chomerics
November-14th-2005, 08:30 PM
Chomerics: When i click on Factcheck.org it states:
http://www.factcheck.org/article222.html

You can quote Wilsons book all you want but there are so many intelligence reports and other intel you can not. We went through pages 50-53 and pages 450-455 of the intelligence report.. We even went through the 1st link below in my signature. But you keep saying the same tired stuff. backed up by his own book.

Bear, the British white paper was based on the exact same evidence, have you read the white paper?


From the white paper. . .

In early 1999, Iraqi officials visited a number of African countries, including Niger. The
visit2 was detected by intelligence, and some details were subsequently confirmed by
Iraq. The purpose of the visit was not immediately known. But uranium ore accounts for
almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports. Putting this together with past Iraqi purchases
of uranium ore from Niger, the limitations faced by the Iraq regime on access to indigenous
uranium ore and other evidence of Iraq seeking to restart its nuclear programme, the JIC
judged that Iraqi purchase of uranium ore could have been the subject of discussions and
noted in an assessment in December 2000 that:

Read the white paper (http://www.archive2.official-documents.co.uk/document/deps/hc/hc898/898.pdf) and then come back and talk to me, because the website has it wrong. This is the EXACT SAME information that was refuted by THREE different sources.

chomerics
November-14th-2005, 08:32 PM
Chom sees and hears only what he wants to hear when he is not stoned. When he is stoned, he's even worse. He will never see the FACTS in front of him, because he refuses to look. That is just his way. He would argue that the sky is purple using some known frauds article to support him, even if you stuck him in a cloudless field and pointed at the blue sky.

It is obvious he did not read the entire article, nor did he take the time to read the links. But, of course, he would try to call you out for not doing the same when he posts one of his completely falsely slanted left-winged pieces. Go figure!!!

No, I did read the links, and I disagreed with them, and I also stated my reasons. Maybe you should actually read the white paper and understand that it is based on the exact same thing the CIA story is based it on.

Again, everyone knows it was false, and it was not true. The disclaimer "British intel" was added so he COULD say it and not be called on it later. It was pertinant to the case, hence the sensationalistic "mushroom cloud" reference.

chomerics
November-14th-2005, 08:36 PM
http://intelligence.senate.gov/

Read the 30 page short version of the 521? page report.
It states that even the information they were putting together AFTER the war was still wrong and they couldnt keep it straight, wrong intelligence with miscommunications..

An entire subcommittee looking into miscommunications had miscommunications...
Yet you Blame Bush for something that everyone still admits was global. AND, you state with glee that he did it on purpose.... enjoy...

No Bear, I blame Bush for putting KNOWN false information corroberated from three seperate sources in the SOTU address to bolster his case. I have read the senate report, and there is no "phase two" released yet, so you really don't know the answer you keep on claiming you do. In fact, I don't know it for a fact, but it sure looks like I am right, seeing how nothing was found, the three reports were given to the WH before the Jan 03' speech and the British white paper was based on the same meeting they had reports from.

Crazyhorse1
November-14th-2005, 08:48 PM
Ah, it's the illiterate professor from Arkansas back again. Dude, do yourself a favor and just turn off your computer. You have been caught many of times with your gross lies (so, please pot, don't try to talk about kettle Bush) and you consistantly prove how ignorant and feeble minded you are with your lack of knowledge, facts, and basic reading comprehension skills. You are a joke. Do yourself a favor and get the last laugh by not posting your b.s. again :doh:

I'm from your hometown, big guy, not Arkansas. Your research techniques are letting you down. I guess I'll have to relax my awe. Was I caught "with" my gross lies or 'telling" gross lies? By the way, sentences are no longer enclosed by parentheses, "pot" takes quotation marks, as does "kettle," and I "constantly" prove whatever I prove, not "consistantly." I also do it "by" my lack of knowledge, not "with," and saying both "basic" and "comprehension" are here redundant.
I personally put up many of the "Kaine" signs you recently saw in Virginia Beach. Do you think they were effective? Remember all the talk about Kilgore letting Malcolm Bush illegally dump trash in Page County. That was my baby.
How about Kilgore trying to execute an innocent death row convict? Why, yes, that was my project, too. Do you think I was effective? Did you know Kaine won in Virginia Beach, a Republican town? Why didn't you do something about that?
Next target: Bush.

Crazyhorse1
November-14th-2005, 11:57 PM
The CIA darned well knew there were no WMD in Iraq and reported so to the Bush administration before the Bush administration made a case to congress otherwise. The CIA files surfaced today. Check it out. I last saw the report on Raw Story. Yeah, I know. A liberal, traitor, site.

twa
November-15th-2005, 12:07 AM
The CIA darned well knew there were no WMD in Iraq and reported so to the Bush administration before the Bush administration made a case to congress otherwise. The CIA files surfaced today. Check it out. I last saw the report on Raw Story. Yeah, I know. A liberal, traitor, site.

Chom's White pages say otherwise :laugh:

Did you help type the new files up ? ;)


Chom...What did the PM of Niger and every rational anylist say the Iraqi's were after?

From YOUR post:

But uranium ore accounts for
almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports. Putting this together with past Iraqi purchases
of uranium ore from Niger, the limitations faced by the Iraq regime on access to indigenous
uranium ore and other evidence of Iraq seeking to restart its nuclear programme, the JIC
judged that Iraqi purchase of uranium ore could have been the subject of discussions
:laugh:

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 10:40 AM
check out this new web ad from the RNC showing the Dems, in their own words, to be hypocrites on Iraq. (http://www.gop.com/Default.aspx?s=video) It's pretty devastating. Too bad it runs too long to air it as a broadcast commercial. (Hat Tip: Instapundit (http://www.instapundit.com/))

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 10:43 AM
see for yourself the lies and hypocrisy of the Democrats. In the immortal words of John France Kerry "I voted for it before I voted against it"..

what a bunch of weenies..

check out this new web ad from the RNC showing the Dems, in their own words, to be hypocrites on Iraq. (http://www.gop.com/Default.aspx?s=video) It's pretty devastating. Too bad it runs too long to air it as a broadcast commercial. (Hat Tip: Instapundit (http://www.instapundit.com/))

SEF
November-15th-2005, 11:06 AM
see for yourself the lies and hypocrisy of the Democrats. In the immortal words of John France Kerry "I voted for it before I voted against it"..

what a bunch of weenies..

check out this new web ad from the RNC showing the Dems, in their own words, to be hypocrites on Iraq. (http://www.gop.com/Default.aspx?s=video) It's pretty devastating. Too bad it runs too long to air it as a broadcast commercial. (Hat Tip: Instapundit (http://www.instapundit.com/))

I Was Wrong, but So Were You. Parsing Bush's new mantra. (http://www.slate.com/id/2130295/nav/tap1/)

Kilmer17
November-15th-2005, 11:28 AM
"wrong" does not = "lie"

Art Monk Fan
November-15th-2005, 11:33 AM
I Was Wrong, but So Were You. Parsing Bush's new mantra. (http://www.slate.com/id/2130295/nav/tap1/)
:doh: The whole world-wide intellegence community was wrong. Will you finally see that this is the real issue? We need to assess and correct whatever it was that went wrong and made every major intelligence agency over-estimate Iraq's weapons capabilities. If we can get that wrong, what else is wrong? We can't afford anymore faulty threat assessments. Lay off the partisan attacks and let's get to the real issue for a change.

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 11:34 AM
Chom...What did the PM of Niger and every rational anylist say the Iraqi's were after?

There is not a single bit of evidence claiming that Iraq was after yellowcake. I have posted this NUMEROUS times. They only thing is a ludicrous coincidence, which is entirely based on conjecture, and when actually examined, holds no merit what so ever. Just because the PM of Niger at the time THOUGHT that Iraq might be after their nuclear material does not make it so. In fact, it means the opposite is true, that Iraq did NOT go to Niger for yellowcake, because if they did, they would have DISCUSSED IT!!!! You see, the "rational" deductions were made by three Americans already: the Ambassador to Niger, a four star Marine General and Joe Wilson. Each person said the EXACT SAME THING, the report was bogus, the meeting did not take place, and Niger was in no way able to sell yellowcake to Iraq EVEN IF THEY WANTED TO!!! That does not even mention the fact that Niger isaware that Iraq is sanctioned by the UN, and that Niger would pay 10 times over what they could make off of Iraq. It would NEVER be in Niger's intrest to sell yellowcake to Saddam. We had three distinguished people tell this to the administration. . . and they ignored them.

The British white paper was ALSO based on the exact same meeting, which I posted earlier, yet Bush used it to bolster his case. Bear tried to use a link which falsely claimed that the British white paper did not use the same intel. . .well, maybe not because the British may have come to a different conclusion, but it was based on the exact same meeting that we had already proved false by three seperate investegations. So instead of believing OUR INTEL, that stated three seperate times this was a false deal, Bush quotes the British white paper, which is based entirely on conjecture :doh:



From YOUR post:

But uranium ore accounts for
almost three-quarters of Niger’s exports. Putting this together with past Iraqi purchases
of uranium ore from Niger, the limitations faced by the Iraq regime on access to indigenous
uranium ore and other evidence of Iraq seeking to restart its nuclear programme, the JIC
judged that Iraqi purchase of uranium ore could have been the subject of discussions
:laugh:

:doh: do you really grasp concepts here? It is a serious question, because you seem to cling to anything you can throw against the wall to stick. . . so lets see here. We have THREE seperate sources that ALL say the information is FALSE. Not one, not two, but three. All dignified men, the Ambassador to Niger, the Marine four star General and Joe Wilson. Each says this story is bogus.

British intel looks at the EXACT SAME MEETING and comes to the conclusion that unraium ore COULD have possibly been the discussion. . . but they knew for a FACT that it wasn't!!!! They already had three corroberating sources which stated that the yellowcake bit was a joke, for more then one reason. Yet, this administration IGNORED their previous reports which stated it was false, and instead quoted a British white paper which they KNEW was false, and was based on conjecture!!!! Did you read the word "could" in the report? Do you understand the context of their intel? Based on Niger's exports, and the fact that there was a meeting, there "could" have been talks of yellowcake. . . It is really to bad that we already KNEW there was NO discussion of yellowcake from THREE SOURCES. . . otherwise you might have a little crack to slither out of.

Now, if you don't think that is "manipulating intelegence" then you are truly a lost cause. It is there in black and white for the world to see, yet the Bush supporters will back this guy no matter what. I am completely mystified at how people can actually look at this information, grab one sentence out of context and claim that that was justification for putting it in the SOTU address :doh: It is complete and total intellectual dishonesty at its core, no way around it.

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 11:35 AM
see for yourself the lies and hypocrisy of the Democrats. In the immortal words of John France Kerry "I voted for it before I voted against it"..

what a bunch of weenies..

check out this new web ad from the RNC showing the Dems, in their own words, to be hypocrites on Iraq. (http://www.gop.com/Default.aspx?s=video) It's pretty devastating. Too bad it runs too long to air it as a broadcast commercial. (Hat Tip: Instapundit (http://www.instapundit.com/))

How are the democrate hypocrites for believing what Bush told them??? I mean should they have EXPECTED him to lie to them :doh:

twa
November-15th-2005, 12:03 PM
"It is complete and total intellectual dishonesty at its core, no way around it."

What ? The fact you cannot accept that even the PM of Niger thought Iraq wanted Yellowcake? :laugh:

Define sought ;)

Joe Sick
November-15th-2005, 12:09 PM
Does this also show Dems reading the president's PDBs?

Otherwise, the whole "they saw the same info as us" talking point is a lie.

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 12:35 PM
"It is complete and total intellectual dishonesty at its core, no way around it."

What ? The fact you cannot accept that even the PM of Niger thought Iraq wanted Yellowcake? :laugh:


That's the best you have? Did you even read what I posted? You are calling me out and saying I can not accept a fact, when I posted the EXACT SAME SENTENCE in my last reply to YOUR POST?!?!???


Just because the PM of Niger at the time THOUGHT that Iraq might be after their nuclear material does not make it so.
:doh:

Honestly, how can you debate someone like this?

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 12:42 PM
you must be a Kossack reading from the simplistic liberal talking points of the day.


how about this from the Washington Post:

"The Robb-Silberman Commission Reported That The Intelligence In The PDB Was Not "Markedly Different" Than The Intelligence Given To Congress In The NIE."

It was not that the intelligence was markedly different. Ah, the PDB - first the left/MSM coalition was trying to tell us that the PDB provided President Bush with all the info he needed to connect the pre-9/11 dots and arrest bin Laden before the attacks...I guess they've given up on that tactic.

But never let it be said that the left/MSM coalition lacks a "if at first your lies don't succeed; lie, lie again" spirit - now we're supposed to believe that a brief summary of intelligence activity is superior to the National Intelligence Estimate provided to Congress before the vote to authorise the use of force in Iraq.

brilliant!! :gang:

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 12:44 PM
you must be a Kossack reading from the simplistic liberal talking points of the day.


how about this from the Washington Post:

"The Robb-Silberman Commission Reported That The Intelligence In The PDB Was Not "Markedly Different" Than The Intelligence Given To Congress In The NIE."

It was not that the intelligence was markedly different. Ah, the PDB - first the left/MSM coalition was trying to tell us that the PDB provided President Bush with all the info he needed to connect the pre-9/11 dots and arrest bin Laden before the attacks...I guess they've given up on that tactic.

But never let it be said that the left/MSM coalition lacks a "if at first your lies don't succeed; lie, lie again" spirit - now we're supposed to believe that a brief summary of intelligence activity is superior to the National Intelligence Estimate provided to Congress before the vote to authorise the use of force in Iraq.

brilliant!! :gang:

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 12:47 PM
Here is another question for you libs. If you guys are so smart, if Kerry and Gore and Clinton and Maddy Albright are so much more intelligent than Cowboy Bush-

how did you FALL FOR VOTING FOR THE WAR?

If you are so smart, the libs in Congress saw the same exact information. Yet they voted YES for the war. How come Clinton was calling for Saddam to be taken out? How come Sandy Burger was talking about WMD's?

It is almost as if you can not face reality- when Rockefeller and Levin are ON CAMERA before the war stating Saddam was a huge threat who needed to be taken out. Yet now THREE YEARS LATER they say they were lied to. By who?

Who lied to Bill Clinton to get him to call for Saddam's overthrow in 1998?

Air Force Cane
November-15th-2005, 12:54 PM
hey Libbies- I guess Joe Lieberman is in on the Cowboy Bush huge lie campaign as well?

November 15, 2005: SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (Democrat-Conn.):
"It is no surprise to my colleagues that I strongly supported the war in Iraq. I was privileged to be the Democratic cosponsor, with the Senator from Virginia, of the authorizing resolution which received overwhelming bipartisan support.

"As I look back on it and as I follow the debates about prewar intelligence, I have no regrets about having sponsored and supported that resolution because of all the other reasons we had in our national security interest to remove Saddam Hussein from power, a brutal, murdering dictator, an aggressive invader of his neighbors, a supporter of terrorism, a hater of the United States of America. He was for us a ticking time bomb that if we did not remove him I am convinced would have blown up, metaphorically speaking, in America's face. I am grateful to the American military for the extraordinary bravery and brilliance of their campaign to remove Saddam Hussein.

"I know we are safer as a nation, and to say the obvious that the Iraqi people are freer as a people, and the Middle East has a chance for a new day and stability with Saddam Hussein gone. We will come to another day to debate the past of prewar intelligence. But let me say briefly the questions raised in our time are important. The international intelligence community believed Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. Probably most significant, and I guess historically puzzling, is that Saddam Hussein acted in a way to send a message that he had a program of weapons of mass destruction.

… "I like the way in which the Warner amendment recited again the findings that led us to war against Saddam Hussein and, quite explicitly, cited the progress that has been made. I do think Senator Levin's amendment doesn't quite do this part enough, about the progress, particularly among the political leaders of Iraq. They have done something remarkable in a country that lived for 30 years under a dictator who suppressed all political activity, encouraged the increasing division and bitterness among the Shia's, the Sunnis, the Kurds. These people, with our help and encouragement, have begun to negotiate like real political leaders in a democracy. It is not always pretty. What we do here is not always most attractive. That is democracy. Most important of all, 8 million Iraqis came out in the face of terrorist threats in January to vote on that interim legislation. Almost 10 million came out to vote on a constitution, which is a pretty good document, a historically good document in the context of the Arab world.

"What happened when the Sunnis felt they were not getting enough of what they wanted in a referendum? They didn't go to the street, most of them, with arms to start a civil war; they registered to vote. That is a miraculous achievement and a change in attitude and action. They came out to vote in great numbers, and they will come out, I predict, again in December in the elections and elect enough Sunnis to have an effect on the Constitution next year.

"So I wish that some of that had been stated in Senator Levin's amendment.

… "I had other concerns about Senator Levin's amendment, including particularly the last paragraph which I believe creates a timetable for withdrawal, and I think that is a mistake, particularly in the next 3 to 6 months as the Iraqis stand up a new government. It may not be the intention of the sponsors, but it does send a message that I fear will discourage our troops because it seems to be heading for the door. It will encourage the terrorists, and it will confuse the Iraqi people and affect their judgments as they go forward."

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 01:07 PM
hey Libbies- I guess Joe Lieberman is in on the Cowboy Bush huge lie campaign as well?

:troll: :point2sky:


Maybe you should look at the evidence, and re-examine your bad bad posts before you start calling people "libbies"

Art Monk Fan
November-15th-2005, 01:07 PM
Lieberman = the only Democrat I'd consider voting for in a presidential race. More of him on both sides and we might get somewhere.

webnarc
November-15th-2005, 01:17 PM
hey Libbies- ...

Here is another question for you libs. If you guys are so smart...



You're being a rude. Stop it. When you post like this, you get threads closed.

While that won't matter much to you, because it seems that you enter into discussion with a completely closed mind, it does impact those people who are interested in actually learning something.

Don't ruin our board.

Gichin13
November-15th-2005, 01:26 PM
I have an honest question for the more conservative folks on this thread, perhaps the first of a series.

Do folks believe that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld came into office with a desire to get Saddam out of power?

I believe they did, especially as shown by those conservative think-tank writings of the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz group. Do others agree with this assessment?

CurseReversed
November-15th-2005, 03:24 PM
this argument is the equivalent of a married couple arguing over who forgot too use the birth control two years after the baby has already been born
the mother and father are so busy arguing, that the babies mental and physical health begins to suffer from the trauma of it
the wife is so mad at the husband because he used an old or untrustworthy birth control devise that she is neglecting the important task of caring of the kid
the baby is here ladies and gentleman, troops are on the ground in iraq trying to do positive things for the iraqis and the middle east
is that in question?
If its not then its pretty simple, lets make sure this kid grows up as healthy as possible so he can take care of himself.
Anything short of this goal is failure, a failure that some are willing to accept as long as bush's "lies" are exposed.
True thinking individuals who have not fallen victim to emotional involvement in this partisan war on the home front know what is most important.
the supposed lies of one man or one group of people pale in comparison to the future of 40 million iraqis and subsequently the whole ME
To me bush and companies pre or post war agneda matters little compared to the overall good of the people who we are trying to help
WMD's dont make any difference either, if we hypothetically had found them would it change our present circumstances? Would we still be fighting al qaeda in iraq and trying to establish democracy and freedom in the ME?
yes of course we would, believe me when i say that terrorist and extremists care little for bush's proof and care more for the destruction of western ideals and personal freedoms.
That is the war, freedom vs. oppression, democracy vs dictatorsip, and the will of free nations vs the will of those who seek to destroy us.
the mission of those we fight is clear as day and is not changed by evidence or papers or politics.

Kilmer17
November-15th-2005, 03:40 PM
I have an honest question for the more conservative folks on this thread, perhaps the first of a series.

Do folks believe that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld came into office with a desire to get Saddam out of power?

I believe they did, especially as shown by those conservative think-tank writings of the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz group. Do others agree with this assessment?

Absolutely.

But there is not a chance that anyone will ever convince me that this was a bad idea.

In fact, I think they should have taken out a bunch more.

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 05:26 PM
Absolutely.

But there is not a chance that anyone will ever convince me that this was a bad idea.

In fact, I think they should have taken out a bunch more.

Well then, not taking into account the good idea/bad irgument argument, do you believe that they purposely misled the threat of Hussen to invade?

Thiebear
November-15th-2005, 08:19 PM
I have an honest question for the more conservative folks on this thread, perhaps the first of a series.

Do folks believe that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld came into office with a desire to get Saddam out of power?

I believe they did, especially as shown by those conservative think-tank writings of the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz group. Do others agree with this assessment?


I believe they came into Power for and about Power.. For and about thier furtherment of their careers. I also believe they were given 4-5 things to do and Saddam was one of them. Then 9/11 and Afghanistan and then Iraq due to 17 Resolutions and an opportunity (this is why the Iran/Syria/NK statement falls apart. It would take 12 years worth of Resolutions :) ).

Thiebear
November-15th-2005, 08:22 PM
For ME personally to believe Bush lied:
We'd have to Erase 1997/1998/1999 intelligence and Democratic statements.
And the Statement from the NIE that says Congress got "basically" the same info as the Pres. *Not Markedly different means there was no Bush wool pulling*.
And Statements from Saddam himself... not deeds of the past but statements/tactics.
And the 7 issues in my 1st link.

twa
November-15th-2005, 08:35 PM
I have an honest question for the more conservative folks on this thread, perhaps the first of a series.

Do folks believe that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld came into office with a desire to get Saddam out of power?

I believe they did, especially as shown by those conservative think-tank writings of the Rumsfeld/Wolfowitz group. Do others agree with this assessment?

Yes,and I shared that desire. He should have been removed in the first Gulf War.

chomerics
November-15th-2005, 09:51 PM
For ME personally to believe Bush lied:
We'd have to Erase 1997/1998/1999 intelligence and Democratic statements.

Bear, what does the fact that the dems were wrong have to do with it? They didn't invade the country.



And the Statement from the NIE that says Congress got "basically" the same info as the Pres. *Not Markedly different means there was no Bush wool pulling*.
Bear, do you honestly believe that the president saw the EXACT SAME thing that congress did? I know for a fact he didn't, just the PDBs alone are an example.


And Statements from Saddam himself... not deeds of the past but statements/tactics.
And the 7 issues in my 1st link.
the issues in your first link do not say the intel was not manipulated, the say that the WHIGs didn't pressure people to give them false intel. A completely different argument.

Crazyhorse1
November-16th-2005, 12:15 AM
Can't we close this thread now. The answer has been all over the media, irrefutabily, for all but the most willfully blind.

1) The administration disclosed material to congress that supported it's desire to invade Iraq. It did not disclose materials it had in hand that tended to cast doubt on these materials.

The first guilt established was that of omission. The second guilt is that it represented itself as an administration willing to exhaust efforts to defang Iraq without going to war.

2) The administration may well have believed there were WMD even though it had ample evidence in hand to believe otherwise. There is ample evidence the administration was/is self deluded.

3) There is evidence that the administration first stated there was no Iraq WMD or Iraq complicity in 911 and then suddenly reversed it's position.

If the administration actually believed what it was saying at first, it was being duplicitous when it reversed it's position. If it did not believe its first statement, it was being, again, deplicitous.

4) There is no reason to believe there was no new evidence to cause it to reverse its position. The administration has been able to point to nothing...
not even some accounting as to how or why the new position was adopted.
All trial balloons so far have been half hearted and in the nature of buy offs and PR rather than factually exculpatory.

5) The evidence is that the administration's reversal of position was a result of a decision to activate a previously formulated and theorized policy discussed in abstract by the Neocoms, probably even before Bush was elected.

6) From that point on, duplicity was necessary and continuous. The administration has now been caught in literally dozens of immediately proven and embarassing evidences of ongoing complicites, from everything to yellow cake and Abu Ghraib to the surfacing of CIA and British documents, outing agents and books by turncoat officials.

The arguments of Bush supporters on this site and elsewhere are having no effect, both because the administration's nefarious acts are outrageous and obvious and because they are so numerous. It's like any argument they have about a particular lie, even if valid, is of no more consequence than a five yard penalty in a 60 point blow out.

I truly question the sanity of Bush supporters at this time. For instance, they actually explain international torture law and the Geneva Conventions as pertaining only to those prisoners of war who meet specific qualifications. In other words they actually believe torture law is subject to George Bush's modifications-- that a prisoner to be covered must have a uniform and may not be a terrorist, etc. etc.
If George Bush degrees this or that, this or that suddenly becomes true. Nevermind that all International Torture agreements we've signed off on protect ALL prisoners.
Here's the fact: by International Law and the Geneva Conventions, as well as the laws of the United States, George Bush is already a war criminal. His advocacy for a torture policy is an advocacy for a war crime. It, in itself, is enough to draw him a life-long sentence in Geneva.