An Example of How An Organization HELP Can Bring You Down with bad Press.

[DCMONEY]

I once learned of a situation with Muhsin Muhammad when he was with the Panthers. Teams have a way phasing you out when they want to. I'm paraphrasing a little. Muhammad talked about how he could see the writing on the wall in regards to how the Panthers dealt with him regarding the game plan. They began to use his age as an excuse. He was told basically that he didn't have it anymore. Also the fact that WR Steve Smith burst onto the scene in 2003 with 88 receptions helped solidify their reasons for not playing him. Well low and behold last season Steve Smith goes down. The Panthers had no choice but to make Muhammad the go to guy. He responded with 93 receptions. He had a great year in Smith's absence. People began to ask man how did you(Muhammad) do it? He basically replied I always had it but team had to make me the focus now. They (Panthers) were phasing him out before Smith's injury. This is an example of how the Skins do with their players before getting rid of them. Not exactly in this fashion because there are different situations for different players. Lavar isn't all clean in his situation but its clear that the team stopped marketing him and knew they were phasing him out. The defense having a great year last season with him being hurt is the reasoning they use to justify for phasing him out. That logic is stupid. I've seen the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan. Didn't mean he wasn't needed. I've seen Magic take over for Kareem and the Lakers win the NBA Title but it didn't mean Kareem wasn't needed. Art Monk was hurt during the Skins 1st Superbowl Championship but it doesn't mean he wasn't needed. Rightly or Wrongly everyone can see that every since Lavar filed the 6.5 million case that the organization was done with him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Skins have a tendency of bad mouth players to justify getting rid of them. Its not a coincidence that when Lavar came back this season teams stopped running off that left side at will, yet Williams would try to have us believe that Holdman was better at the weakside LB. Stevie Wonder could see thats bull. Lavar voicing his complaint now is bad timing but he's correct seeing whats happening around him. He's not paranoid or stupid. Hell it doesn't surprise me because the Skins seem to always do this to their own after these players have performed for the organization. The team tried to sell everyone the notion that Lavar wasn't ready for Williams complicated system. Cmon man. A man who's made the pro bowl in 3 different systems. Is Williams system anymore complicated than Ray Rhodes or marvin Lewis who's won Superbowls? Also I think its stupid for people to say man you have to disicplined to play in Williams system, like you don't have to be disicplined in any defensive scheme.

[GibbSkins11]

I once learned of a situation with Muhsin Muhammad when he was with the Panthers. Teams have a way phasing you out when they want to. I'm paraphrasing a little. Muhammad talked about how he could see the writing on the wall in regards to how the Panthers dealt with him regarding the game plan. They began to use his age as an excuse. He was told basically that he didn't have it anymore. Also the fact that WR Steve Smith burst onto the scene in 2003 with 88 receptions helped solidify their reasons for not playing him. Well low and behold last season Steve Smith goes down. The Panthers had no choice but to make Muhammad the go to guy. He responded with 93 receptions. He had a great year in Smith's absence. People began to ask man how did you(Muhammad) do it? He basically replied I always had it but team had to make me the focus now. They (Panthers) were phasing him out before Smith's injury. This is an example of how the Skins do with their players before getting rid of them. Not exactly in this fashion because there are different situations for different players. Lavar isn't all clean in his situation but its clear that the team stopped marketing him and knew they were phasing him out. The defense having a great year last season with him being hurt is the reasoning they use to justify for phasing him out. That logic is stupid. I've seen the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan. Didn't mean he wasn't needed. I've seen Magic take over for Kareem and the Lakers win the NBA Title but it didn't mean Kareem wasn't needed. Art Monk was hurt during the Skins 1st Superbowl Championship but it doesn't mean he wasn't needed. Rightly or Wrongly everyone can see that every since Lavar filed the 6.5 million case that the organization was done with him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Skins have a tendency of bad mouth players to justify getting rid of them. Its not a coincidence that when Lavar came back this season teams stopped running off that left side at will, yet Williams would try to have us believe that Holdman was better at the weakside LB. Stevie Wonder could see thats bull. Lavar voicing his complaint now is bad timing but he's correct seeing whats happening around him. He's not paranoid or stupid. Hell it doesn't surprise me because the Skins seem to always do this to their own after these players have performed for the organization.


i think LA is causing the problems with LA not the REDSKINS:applause: :helmet: :applause: LETS FOCUS ON PHILLY NOT LA

[DCMONEY]

i think LA is causing the problems with LA not the REDSKINS:applause: :helmet: :applause:

Its not all LA buddy. This orgainzation has its issues too.

[ImmortalDragon]

I'm with you 100% DCMONEY

[BIGGS_DADDY]

I'm with you Money, and it's a crying shame.

[G-Prime]

It's hilarious to me to think that some of you will ignore all of Lavar's actions and find reasons as to why it's not his fault. Lavar asked for this. All of it

[ImmortalDragon]

It's hilarious to me to think that some of you will ignore all of Lavar's actions and find reasons as to why it's not his fault. Lavar asked for this. All of it
Lavar asked for an arbitration, what he got was an entire organization throwing him to the curb.

[dfbovey]

It's hilarious to me to think that some of you will ignore all of Lavar's actions and find reasons as to why it's not his fault. Lavar asked for this. All of it

This is not a clear cut issue, and the Redskins front office does have to take some of the blame in the way this has played out. Arrington wouldn't be the first player the team has handled poorly. Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

[fansince62]

It's hilarious to me that some of you will adopt positions ignorant of the internal details and are willing to accept a notion that is, at face value, farcical: that the dynamic is completely, 100%, one sided. very sophisticated pov on human relations and employer/employee interactions!

[SkinsFanMania]

break it up into paragraphs. It would be much easier to read.

[fansince62]

"This is not a clear cut issue, and the Redskins front office does have to take some of the blame in the way this has played out. Arrington wouldn't be the first player the team has handled poorly. Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar."

yup! well put.

both sides have hosed this up.

[DC_Native,NC_Fan]

I think that getting rid of "Lavar-type" players is exactly what needs to happen to have a real Joe Gibbs-type team. Most of the weeding out was done last year, and the remaining bad seeds will be out after this year. You guys (most of you) know that Gibbs is a character-first guy, and he isn't putting up with any dissention. Obviously there are some off-the-field issues that his players have had in the past and the present that he is willing to overlook, as long as it doesn't affect the locker room or field. Whatever the reason Lavar is acting like this, it doesn't matter. He's obviously not with the program, so Gibbs is saying :ciao: . More power to him, cus that is what this team has needed for a long time.

[SkinsNatsFan]

Regardless of what has happened and is happening between Lavar and the Redskins organization, everything that Lavar has done this week could have and should have been done after the season was over. It's as simple as that. This week was Lavar trying to turn the spotlight on himself. It was wrong.

[Redskins Diehard]

It's hilarious to me to think that some of you will ignore all of Lavar's actions and find reasons as to why it's not his fault. Lavar asked for this. All of it

And some of you will focus on a couple of sound bites/quotes to find reasons why it is his fault. Ignoring the bigger picture. Ignoring the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the organization that got rid of 2 of its "Core Redskins" last offseason shares any part of the blame.

Everyone is worried about this issue because as Redskin fans we are waiting for the other shoe to drop. You don't think we can pull off the 3 in a row in the East and you are building a makeshift excuse for after the Eagles game.

For all of that you that say the town hates LaVar I suggest you swing by FedEx field one Sunday while he is playing. The man gets a standing O everytime he enters the game or makes a play. NOBODY else on the team gets that kind of fan treatment.

[iheartskins]

Acerbic as always, fansince62. :)

[DC_Native,NC_Fan]

For all of that you that say the town hates LaVar I suggest you swing by FedEx field one Sunday while he is playing. The man gets a standing O everytime he enters the game or makes a play. NOBODY else on the team gets that kind of fan treatment.

I think that's due to the fact that all the fans are waiting for Lavar to earn all that money that the team tied up in him, and they're relieved when he shows a spark.

j/k

:cheers:

[SkinsLegacy44]

I don't see Magic missing key jump shots in clutch moments or mouthing off to the LA Times the week of a key game.

This comparision is absurd.

[gridironmike]

You guys (most of you) know that Gibbs is a character-first guy, and he isn't putting up with any dissention.

Are you trying to say that Lavar isn't a character guy? You guys are my Redskin brothers, but crap, sometimes the assessments on here really stink. Lavar is not afraid to speak his mind. Do you think Riggins was? How about Manley? Gary Clark? I seem to remember a clash between Petitbon and Wilbur Marshall, but did it get in the way of performance?

[HOF44]

Your comparing LA to Magic, Kareem, Jordan and the likes. This is not correct. If the skins were coming of multiple championship seasons, that LA was the reason, for I think all of this would be handled very differently.

[DC_Native,NC_Fan]

I don't see Magic missing key jump shots in clutch moments or mouthing off to the LA Times the week of a key game.

This comparision is absurd.

Yep. Awesome point.

[DC_Native,NC_Fan]

Are you trying to say that Lavar isn't a character guy? You guys are my Redskin brothers, but crap, sometimes the assessments on here really stink. Lavar is not afraid to speak his mind. Do you think Riggins was? How about Manley? Gary Clark? I seem to remember a clash between Petitbon and Wilbur Marshall, but did it get in the way of performance?

When I say character, I mean character as a Redskin, not as a person. Like I said, his players have had off-the-field issues. Of course there's going to be some incidents like you mentioned with Marshall and Petitbon. But this is an ongoing thing with Lavar, and his diarrhea of the mouth is turning him into a team cancer.

[kingfish50]

I think he really means well and loves this team, the city and the fans. He just doesn't know when to shut up!
That being said, either straighten up (shut up) or get the hell out of town!

[DC_Native,NC_Fan]

I think he really means well and loves this team, the city and the fans. He just doesn't know when to shut up!
That being said, either straighten up (shut up) or get the hell out of town!

I agree totally. Unfortunately, I think it's to the point now where shutting up is no longer an option for him.

[Loyal2Washington]

For some of you I have to ask, if this team, by team I mean front office, is in your eyes such an evil team that they are constantly screwing players over, and now on the verge of destroying your hero, why the hell are you a fan of the team?
The Washington Redskins will be here after Lavar, CP, ST, Moss, and yes even Gibbs. If Lavar is to go then good riddance, there's nothing you can do, if your a Redskins fan. In the salary cap era players come and go so if the way the team handles player relations is this much of a strain on you, then be a fan of players, not a team, because Lavar is not and will not be the last player to be, in your eyes, screwed.

:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[DCMONEY]

I don't see Magic missing key jump shots in clutch moments or mouthing off to the LA Times the week of a key game.

This comparision is absurd.

Sir did you read what I wrote. The comparison is when people say this defense finished ranked #3 in the NFL and that Lavar is expendable. I think that logic is dumb. Magic moved to center in place of Kareem for that game. Now the Lakers went on to win the title without Kareem. It didn't mean they didn't need Kareem. Art Monk wasn't here for our 1st Superbowl run. It didn't mean we didn't need him. So for you and those who say this defense finished #3 overall without Lavar, so what? It doesn't mean Lavar isn't needed.

[Badgerrocks]

Regardless of what has happened and is happening between Lavar and the Redskins organization, everything that Lavar has done this week could have and should have been done after the season was over. It's as simple as that. This week was Lavar trying to turn the spotlight on himself. It was wrong.

As much as I love Lavar, I am afraid I have to agree with this. It should not have come out this week.:eaglesuck

[RDSCNZ20]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..
from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.

[DCMONEY]

In my opinion I think Lavar handled his benching far better than I would've. Now none of are NFL coaches. But I for one think I know some football. I've coached and played it. Here is a guy who is an established veteran and 3 time pro bowler in 3 different schemes. This coaching staff tried to test our intelligence by saying Warrick Holdman was playing better than Lavar. Tell me when? I find it funny that when the Skins went into a little funk this year, the staff began to change up. I might have to do with how Tiki Barber went left at will in the Giants game and that was the final straw. Now Lavar is told he can play. Now the coaching staff says it was his play that got him benched nothing else. Its mighty when he's inserted, the talk from some coaches was his attitude is better. Now you said nothing of his attitude. According to Williams, Lavar had to get better. This coaching staff said several contradicting statements.

[Loyal2Washington]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..
from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.
Actually the FO has to except nothing, it's Dannys team. If you and others do not come to grips with that, then your time as a fan is going to always be filled with heartbreak. Do you think LA is going to be the last fan favorite to be treated unfairly, as some see it.

:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[trez]

The Redskins play the Eagles this Sunday.

[Zguy28]

Please no more! We want to beat Philly this weekend not become them!

[[[ghost]]]

thats an interesting way to look at it i guess

[redman]

Its seems like every year and "core" reskins is been treated this way..
from S.Davis to now LA.. I agree with most that the timing and LA's action over the year has been suspect.. but FO has to share the blame.

I'm still waiting for someone to name one of those "core Redskins" players who we've cut and who we're supposed to miss. SD had one good year afterwards and his career is now about done. Coles is averaging at last glance less yards per reception than Cooley. And Gardner? I can't remember which team he plays for now.

[fansince62]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.

8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.

[DCMONEY]

For some of you I have to ask, if this team, by team I mean front office, is in your eyes such an evil team that they are constantly screwing players over, and now on the verge of destroying your hero, why the hell are you a fan of the team?
The Washington Redskins will be here after Lavar, CP, ST, Moss, and yes even Gibbs. If Lavar is to go then good riddance, there's nothing you can do, if your a Redskins fan. In the salary cap era players come and go so if the way the team handles player relations is this much of a strain on you, then be a fan of players, not a team, because Lavar is not and will not be the last player to be, in your eyes, screwed.

:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

I've been a Skins fans from day one but it doesn't mean I can't call a spade a spade. For you and all of the Lavar bashers to listen to some of the statements this coaching staff has made as to why Lavar wasn't playing warlier you had to see some contradictions in their statements. Lavar has had some faults too. But for you to feel this is 100% Lavar's fault is being blinded by the organization you like. I mean just because I'm Redskins fan doesn't mean I can't understand it.

[SkinsHokieFan]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.

8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.


Fansince62, you can make that argument for many players that have left teams and gone on to another

It is the nature of the business

Humphries was traded in a bad trade, Gibbs said his my bad on that. He also got pounded in the Superbowl

Brad Badger? You are putting him up there? :laugh:

McCardell, 11th round pick, long shot to stick around here anyways. He made it, good for him

Sage/Frerrote :doh:

Trotter, look at how Lavar has been treated, you know how badly Trotter would have had it under GW

And I am very happy with the Champ-Portis/2nd round deal

The only place you have a point in SD. He had a great year in 2003 for the Panthers and got them to a SuperBowl. BMitch would have provided some terrific leadership in our locker room

Pierce took advantage of his situation. I am sorry, but in the salary cap game you can't have 3 linebackers with contracts like that. Pierce got more then Washington

This will always happen to every team. Can you imagine the Colts D with Marcus Washington?

[DCMONEY]

The very argument at the beginning of the Lavar debate. Coaches said that Lavar was out of place. Man he played 2 games last season. I have the games on tape in which he played. Nothing was said after those games. The contradiction never ceases.

[bubba9497]

LaVar to me is "the boy who cried wolf"

[indatrenches]

I'm still waiting for someone to name one of those "core Redskins" players who we've cut and who we're supposed to miss. SD had one good year afterwards and his career is now about done. Coles is averaging at last glance less yards per reception than Cooley. And Gardner? I can't remember which team he plays for now.

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson
Kenard Lang
Champ Bailey
Fred Smoot
Antonio Pierce
Thrash*
Sellers*
Trent Green
Jamie Asher
Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one
Shawn Barber
Derek Smith
Gus Frerotte
Tre Johnson

[ZoEd]

I once learned of a situation with Muhsin Muhammad when he was with the Panthers. Teams have a way phasing you out when they want to. I'm paraphrasing a little. Muhammad talked about how he could see the writing on the wall in regards to how the Panthers dealt with him regarding the game plan. They began to use his age as an excuse. He was told basically that he didn't have it anymore. Also the fact that WR Steve Smith burst onto the scene in 2003 with 88 receptions helped solidify their reasons for not playing him. Well low and behold last season Steve Smith goes down. The Panthers had no choice but to make Muhammad the go to guy. He responded with 93 receptions. He had a great year in Smith's absence. People began to ask man how did you(Muhammad) do it? He basically replied I always had it but team had to make me the focus now. They (Panthers) were phasing him out before Smith's injury. This is an example of how the Skins do with their players before getting rid of them. Not exactly in this fashion because there are different situations for different players. Lavar isn't all clean in his situation but its clear that the team stopped marketing him and knew they were phasing him out. The defense having a great year last season with him being hurt is the reasoning they use to justify for phasing him out. That logic is stupid. I've seen the Bulls win over 50 games without Jordan. Didn't mean he wasn't needed. I've seen Magic take over for Kareem and the Lakers win the NBA Title but it didn't mean Kareem wasn't needed. Art Monk was hurt during the Skins 1st Superbowl Championship but it doesn't mean he wasn't needed. Rightly or Wrongly everyone can see that every since Lavar filed the 6.5 million case that the organization was done with him. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The Skins have a tendency of bad mouth players to justify getting rid of them. Its not a coincidence that when Lavar came back this season teams stopped running off that left side at will, yet Williams would try to have us believe that Holdman was better at the weakside LB. Stevie Wonder could see thats bull. Lavar voicing his complaint now is bad timing but he's correct seeing whats happening around him. He's not paranoid or stupid. Hell it doesn't surprise me because the Skins seem to always do this to their own after these players have performed for the organization. The team tried to sell everyone the notion that Lavar wasn't ready for Williams complicated system. Cmon man. A man who's made the pro bowl in 3 different systems. Is Williams system anymore complicated than Ray Rhodes or marvin Lewis who's won Superbowls? Also I think its stupid for people to say man you have to disicplined to play in Williams system, like you don't have to be disicplined in any defensive scheme.

A Freakin Man brother. :applause: :applause: :applause:

You just summed up everything that I've been posting for the last two days. All the fingers are pointing at Lavar and none towards the organiztion.

Phasing him out is probably the most accurate term. The cap hit is going to be huge but instead of telling him it's time to restructure or go they "phase" him out. Makes sense.

I just feel there is more to this "falling from grace" scenario then most people want to believe. I can see Danny being a selfish little punk and treating Lavar like crap because of the dispute. Face it the only smart decision Danny has made is bringing back Gibbs. Other than that he's been a PUNK!

[chiefhogskin48]

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson
Kenard Lang
Champ Bailey
Fred Smoot
Antonio Pierce
Thrash*
Sellers*
Trent Green
Jamie Asher
Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one
Shawn Barber
Derek Smith
Gus Frerotte
Tre Johnson

Wow, many of these are extreme stretches since they were tiny role players, made little impact, or were outright busts. Putting Kenard Lang up there would be like the Jags putting up Renaldo Wynn. Ditto for Derek Smith (this guy is so average, it's absurd). Even Shawn Barber has been a bust. He has had one decent year since he left our team. Smoot, by all accounts, has been a tremendous bust for the Vikings, especially considering the $.

Tre Johnson and Jamie Asher were out of the league just a season or two after we cut them loose. Same goes with guys like Connell, Westbrook, Derrius Thompson... the list goes on and on.

I think you have a legitimate point with Trent Green, Brad Johnson, Wychek, and a lesser extent James Thrash. But which organization doesn't cut loose quality players? It's the nature of the NFL. Not to mention, our current front office wasn't responsibile for the majority of the ones you've listed.

[ZoEd]

My final Lavar post and I'm washing my hands of it.

Please can someone tell me WHY GW said Lavar on the field makes his job easier if Lavar wasn't a good LB?

Why did GW tell me at the Redskins draft day, when I asked how are we going to pressure the QB and he told me #56?

Why, why, why unless it's something personnel, in which case Lavar is totally justified in his actions, has Lavar been treated this way?

I'M SURE LAVAR HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. But to say it's only Lavar being a crybaby is ludacris.

[indatrenches]

[QUOTE=chiefhogskin48]Wow, many of these are extreme stretches since they were tiny role players, made little impact, or were outright busts. Putting Kenard Lang up there would be like the Jags putting up Renaldo Wynn. Ditto for Derek Smith (this guy is so average, it's absurd). Even Shawn Barber has been a bust. He has had one decent year since he left our team. Smoot, by all accounts, has been a tremendous bust for the Vikings, especially considering the $.

Tre Johnson and Jamie Asher were out of the league just a season or two after we cut them loose. Same goes with guys like Connell, Westbrook, Derrius Thompson... the list goes on and on.


Actually Kenard Lang is a good player for the Browns, maybe not stat wise but pressure wise(something we could have used the past few years without over spending on past talent B. Smith). Derek Smith AVERAGE!?!? when he was here he was average and pushed around since he left he been a 100 tackle guy every year look it up (i wonder how you do that on average talent and make the playoffs?) Could have keep him instead of having a revolving door of mlb every year.

I dont think your a bust once you come off of knee surgury (Barber) getting cut start for the Eagles then garner a multimillion dollar deal. sure he's hurt this year but that doesnt sound like bust to me.

Oh and Tre just retired in 02, something about bad knees.

[IronMike]

Fansince62:
Your earlier post was very perceptive and on point. No one on this board knows the personnel issues affecting HR relationships between management and the players. That is true of any organization. I have yet to meet any employee who, once s/he leaves an organization for another organization for more money, ever says anything good about the first organization. Lookat Trotter's comments about the Eagles when he left for the Skins, and now listen to his tune.
BUT your comments about core players who have been cut by this organization is silly. It appears that you have no appreciation or knowledge of the complexities or limitations on teams of the salary cap. Are you really trying to tell us that you would have paid S. Davis what he was demanding? Are you really trying to tell us that the Skins final offers to Pierce and Smoot were not very competitive? Are you really trying to blame Snyder for the league fiasco in the ownership snafu that led to Cooke the Lesser failing to sign Trent Green? Are you really trying to tell us that Champ Bailey and his wife did NOT want to be in Washington, no matter what Snyder was willing to pay him? Would you as general manager really have paid Kenard Lang what he was demanding after only one year of performance out of four?
These players were not "cut". They went elsewhere for more money. More power to them. That is the essence of the free market.
The only situation that I would agree with you, is Brad Johnson. But I am unable to determine whether that was Snyder or Norv. Somebody thought Jeff George was worth more $$$ that BJ was worth.
As I thought you were saying in your first post: the situation is more complex than we as fans can know. Lavar is not 100% in the right, nor is management (whether being defined as the FO, Snyder or the coaching staff). But your list of players is just plain silly. It detracts from an otherwise cogent point of view.

I hope everyone has a safe New Years Eve. Be careful out there, folks!

:cheers:

[Jumbo]

The Redskins play the Eagles this Sunday.


PLUCK THE EAGLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

Sorry, wrong thread. :D

[Peregrine]

Good points DC. People like to take extremes...Its all LAs fault, its all the Redskins fault. Chances are, if there ARE problems, BOTH are at fault to an extent(but thats making the assumption there are problems, which is based on one article).

[fpickering]

For some of you I have to ask, if this team, by team I mean front office, is in your eyes such an evil team that they are constantly screwing players over, and now on the verge of destroying your hero, why the hell are you a fan of the team?


I have seen this line of argument before and I disagree with its premise.

Although I do not think that the organization is evil, I respect the opinions of fellow fans. I also acknowledge that many fans who post here have been loyal fans of this team for a long time and that affords them the right to disagree.

[DCMONEY]

My final Lavar post and I'm washing my hands of it.

Please can someone tell me WHY GW said Lavar on the field makes his job easier if Lavar wasn't a good LB?

Why did GW tell me at the Redskins draft day, when I asked how are we going to pressure the QB and he told me #56?

Why, why, why unless it's something personnel, in which case Lavar is totally justified in his actions, has Lavar been treated this way?

I'M SURE LAVAR HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT. But to say it's only Lavar being a crybaby is ludacris.

Amen :notworthy

[Destino]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

[DCMONEY]

Fansince62:
Your earlier post was very perceptive and on point. No one on this board knows the personnel issues affecting HR relationships between management and the players. That is true of any organization. I have yet to meet any employee who, once s/he leaves an organization for another organization for more money, ever says anything good about the first organization. Lookat Trotter's comments about the Eagles when he left for the Skins, and now listen to his tune.
BUT your comments about core players who have been cut by this organization is silly. It appears that you have no appreciation or knowledge of the complexities or limitations on teams of the salary cap. Are you really trying to tell us that you would have paid S. Davis what he was demanding? Are you really trying to tell us that the Skins final offers to Pierce and Smoot were not very competitive? Are you really trying to blame Snyder for the league fiasco in the ownership snafu that led to Cooke the Lesser failing to sign Trent Green? Are you really trying to tell us that Champ Bailey and his wife did NOT want to be in Washington, no matter what Snyder was willing to pay him? Would you as general manager really have paid Kenard Lang what he was demanding after only one year of performance out of four?
These players were not "cut". They went elsewhere for more money. More power to them. That is the essence of the free market.
The only situation that I would agree with you, is Brad Johnson. But I am unable to determine whether that was Snyder or Norv. Somebody thought Jeff George was worth more $$$ that BJ was worth.
As I thought you were saying in your first post: the situation is more complex than we as fans can know. Lavar is not 100% in the right, nor is management (whether being defined as the FO, Snyder or the coaching staff). But your list of players is just plain silly. It detracts from an otherwise cogent point of view.

I hope everyone has a safe New Years Eve. Be careful out there, folks!

:cheers:


Man I get tired of people saying Champ didn't want to be here. I personally saw an interview with him. The reporter asked him point blank, are you coming back next season? He said and I qoute "The ball is in the Redskins court. They have to show me the money." He said this. I heard it. Now I'm sure he was tired of the losing. Any player would. Man I'll tell you this and you might say I'm lying. When Champ was shown the door, I told a buddy of mine back then watch and see. You just wait. Lavar Arrington will be next to go. Me and my boys were sitting in Ruby Tues eating and I said it. They'll bad mouth him. I guess the reason I'm so adamant about the front office and their dealings with our players is because I've been talking about it for years.

[Jumbo]

I'll just keep the list short and to the last 5/6 years for you.

*=came back

Brad Johnson
Kenard Lang
Champ Bailey
Fred Smoot
Antonio Pierce
Thrash*
Sellers*
Trent Green
Jamie Asher
Frank Wycheck- i had to throw in this one
Shawn Barber
Derek Smith
Gus Frerotte
Tre Johnson

Among other munerous, repetitive errors in fact or logic, I'm weary of seeing Pierce and Smoot listed as among those who "got cut".

The majority (not all) of the "I support Lavar" arguments have been pretty much built on fact-free patent nonsense and emotionally- or ego-disrupted thinking, revisionist history, and idealized speculation to date. They actually don't do Lavar justice, other than in the ego-stroke department. If you really like the guy, be grateful none of you are advocating his cause in any professional capacity.

[ZoEd]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

It's good to see someone with as many posts as you come in here and point out what we've all been trying to say. Amen Brother!

[TheLongshot]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Course, this totally ignores the fact that Lavar was coming off knee surgery and couldn't start working out until midway through training camp. Any thought that he might not have been in football shape? Any thought that he wasn't playing like he should because he was favoring the knee a bit? Hell, even Lavar admitted that after the fact. Course, we ignore these things and still use the old saw that the team "doesn't feel they need him". If that was true, he wouldn't have seen the field all year. I also think we haven't seen all that Lavar can be this season either.

I also take issue with the "evidence" that former players have bad things to say about their former organization. Name me a team where that isn't true. Certainly, the Patriots have enough players with axes to grind, but we don't critisize their organizations. It is just smart business.

Certianly, the front office has issues that predate Gibbs that are still in effect. At the same time, I don't see anything post-Gibbs that the team has mishandled. The contract issue with Lavar predated Gibbs.

If anything, the main problem with management is probably the personal touch that Snyder did early on, that he's now getting away from because that isn't the proper way to handle things in the NFL. That's part of the reason why Lavar is miffed, but it is never good when players can jump the chain of command.

Jason

[jimster]

Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.


yeah like Champ. - He stated he wanted to be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL, the Redskins felt differently.

like Pierce - Who thinks he'd be a starter right now with a fat contract for any NFL team at a position he never played before last year if it weren't for the Redskins? - Then the team offered him a generous contract and he turned it down to play somewhere else for a small amount more. - Boy sure sounds like the Redskins sure are bad. :doh:

Raymer, Thrash, Rasby and Sellers had so many ill feelings they came back.

Some players feel slighted because an ex-team thinks they aren't worth "x" amount of money and another team does. That doesn't mean that the team that let them go are doing bad business and it doesn't mean the player is a bum- it's just doing business.

Look at the New England Patriots. Troy Brown last year played a key role on offense, defense and special teams throughout the season, and as thanks, he got cut at the end of the year. - But because it was the Patriots everyone said "oh, it's just business" - Truth is they felt it would be irresponsible to over-pay one player and neglect other needs. They ended up re-signing him to a smaller contract a couple months later, but you get the point.

[jimster]

Good points DC. People like to take extremes...Its all LAs fault, its all the Redskins fault. Chances are, if there ARE problems, BOTH are at fault to an extent(but thats making the assumption there are problems, which is based on one article).

I think this is why Gibbs asked for a compromise in the arbritration, so no one would be singled out to blame.

I think 99% of this hoopla this week is the media, not Lavar, not the team.

[NavyDave]

I guess we treated laverne Coles bad too after he got the accept the trade or a flatscreen option?

Well with Lavar leaving it will hurt profits going to the medical industry when his house parties result in some one a beat down or shot.

I'll take the Joe Gibb players any day when it helps us go deep in the playoffs.

[Jumbo]

:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

It's good to see someone with as many posts as you come in here and point out what we've all been trying to say. Amen Brother!


Gee. And how many little clappy-hands did you put up for the large numbers of posters with "as many posts" who disagreed with "what we've all been trying to say"? :doh:

[TheLongshot]

Man I get tired of people saying Champ didn't want to be here. I personally saw an interview with him. The reporter asked him point blank, are you coming back next season? He said and I qoute "The ball is in the Redskins court. They have to show me the money." He said this. I heard it. Now I'm sure he was tired of the losing. Any player would. Man I'll tell you this and you might say I'm lying. When Champ was shown the door, I told a buddy of mine back then watch and see. You just wait. Lavar Arrington will be next to go. Me and my boys were sitting in Ruby Tues eating and I said it. They'll bad mouth him. I guess the reason I'm so adamant about the front office and their dealings with our players is because I've been talking about it for years.

Problem is, this isn't the complete story. You are forgetting the part where Champ publicly declared his support for George Edwards, and gave a not so vague hint that if Edwards was gone, so would he. It was so obvious that Champ was so frustrated at the rotation at the D-coordinator position that he didn't want to deal with it anymore, unless the skins drove a truckload of money to his door. I think he knew that wasn't going to happen, with the fat contract that Lavar got.

To be honest, I don't blame Champ for feeling that way. No matter what you are being paid, it is tough to see the plan getting ripped up every year and starting over again.

Whenever you are trying to get better as an organization and have gotten into a lot of bad habits, you are probably going to lose some talented players because they are sick of things and don't buy into what you are doing for whatever reason. Such is the way of things. I think a lot of what is happening with Lavar is the fact that Snyder coddled him and basically gave him whatever he wanted. Now, that we have coaches who want to instill some disipline, he's bristling at it. This, combined with the unlucky fact that Lavar has gotten a major injury for the first time in his career, he's not taking it well. He's so used to having everything handed to him, he's not used to actually earning his job, even if he's not quite up to the standard he needs to live up to.

Jason

[DCMONEY]

Whenever you are trying to get better as an organization and have gotten into a lot of bad habits, you are probably going to lose some talented players because they are sick of things and don't buy into what you are doing for whatever reason. Such is the way of things. I think a lot of what is happening with Lavar is the fact that Snyder coddled him and basically gave him whatever he wanted. Now, that we have coaches who want to instill some disipline, he's bristling at it. This, combined with the unlucky fact that Lavar has gotten a major injury for the first time in his career, he's not taking it well. He's so used to having everything handed to him, he's not used to actually earning his job, even if he's not quite up to the standard he needs to live up to.

Jason[/QUOTE]

Earning his job? I mean I'll say it again Lavar is better than Warrick Holdman period. Now i can see them amking Lavar get in game shape. But Lavar's position is WLB. Holdman isn't better. So why play games?

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

We were 5-11 with him. We are 9-6 without him. Let him walk. I can't believe we are about to embark in one of our best seasons in 13 years and we're more concerned about LA than winning. I guess when you have nothing to ***** about you may as well create something. That would be the definition of the hangover of the loser mentality we've developed over the last dozen years.

[TheSteve]

We were 5-11 with him. We are 9-6 without him. Let him walk. I can't believe we are about to embark in one of our best seasons in 13 years and we're more concerned about LA than winning.

The New York Knicks also made it to the NBA Finals with Patrick Ewing injured. Did that mean they didn't have any better a shot at beating the Spurs if he had been healthy for the finals? :rolleyes:

All the facts you quoted mean is that TEAM can when without an individual, it doesn't mean that the individual cannot HELP the team, or that the team would not be better off if that player were PLAYING.

[ZoEd]

Gee. And how many little clappy-hands did you put up for the large numbers of posters with "as many posts" who disagreed with "what we've all been trying to say"? :doh:

No clappy hands, just utter disbelief that "seasoned" veterans on this board want to rest the entire "Lavar Gate" incident soley on the shoulders of Lavar and place no blame or at least entertain the fact that the organization has their fair share of the blame.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

No he does not help the team when he has to whine to the media every week it seems. This has been going on for months now. Yeah he is a good player but he's a media whore who thinks he should be the face of the team.

[TheLongshot]

Earning his job? I mean I'll say it again Lavar is better than Warrick Holdman period. Now i can see them amking Lavar get in game shape. But Lavar's position is WLB. Holdman isn't better. So why play games?

I don't argue that Lavar is a better player than Holdman when Lavar is well. Problem was, Lavar wasn't back. He was still recovering, favoring his knee, and he missed all the reps he would have gotten in the offseason and the preseason. Therefore, he had a lot of catching up to do.

I think also there was some hope that Holdman would get out of his funk and pick things up. Often when a player struggles, you hope that he can play his way out of it. Unfortunatly, it didn't quite happen for Holdman.

Jason

[Jumbo]

No clappy hands, just utter disbelief that "seasoned" veterans on this board want to rest the entire "Lavar Gate" incident soley on the shoulders of Lavar and place no blame or at least entertain the fact that the organization has their fair share of the blame.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:


Your impotent response is a childishly simplistic generalization of the wide range of differing POV's on the topic. It also dodges my comment, as you repeat here, that you seem to decide the quality of a seasoned (minus italics) veteran of the board based soley on whether or not he aligns with your beliefs on this single widely-debated topic.

Consistent with the overwhelming majority of your posts to date, these further my belief that our interactions will be brief, no doubt mercifully so for us both. :)

[ZoEd]

Your impotent response is a childishly simplistic generalization of the wide range of differing POV's on the topic. It also dodges my comment, as you repeat here, that you seem to decide the quality of a seasoned (minus italics) veteran of the board based soley on whether or not he aligns with your beliefs on this single widely-debated topic.

Consistent with the overwhelming majority of your posts to date, these further my belief that our interactions will be brief, no doubt mercifully so for us both. :)

Wow all of them big words you must be a lawyer.

My POV is that using big words doesn't make you right.

I didn't dodge your comment I was merely making an observation that most of the "veterans" on the board are anti Lavar and are placing the blame solely on him. Merely an opinion. Maybe the veterans have an inside scoop unlike us mere mortals that use this forum as a platform for discussion to try and make since of this Lavar situation. Sorry I offended you by applauding someones opinion.

Since you speak of impotence maybe it's an insecurity issue that you're dealing with. By no means did my post insinuate that the veterans on this board only made quality posts when their POV's agreed with mine.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Jumbo]

Wow all of them big words you must be a lawyer.

My POV is that using big words doesn't make you right.

I didn't dodge your comment I was merely making an observation that most of the "veterans" on the board are anti Lavar and are placing the blame solely on him. Merely an opinion. Maybe the veterans have an inside scoop unlike us mere mortals that use this forum as a platform for discussion to try and make since of this Lavar situation. Sorry I offended you by applauding someones opinion.

Since you speak of impotence maybe it's an insecurity issue that you're dealing with. By no means did my post insinuate that the veterans on this board only made quality posts when their POV's agreed with mine.
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

Not a lawyer. No apology offered for the big words. No insecurity issue, the word has other uses. Not offended. No point in saying more about the rest of your response.

Instead I'll say this: as I read in another thread you posted in, we both share an intense interest in this site and the Redskins, and we both like hunting. And, judging by your location, we spend a lot of time in similar environements. Here's to taking care of priorities Sunday! :eaglesuck

[ImmortalDragon]

ZoEd is right, the vets act as if Gibbs is God and cannot make a mistake.

[Tarpon75]

1) Pierce had a good year until injured - his team was very happy.

2) SD went to the SB.....hmmmm....when have the Skins recently been there.

3) Coles is with a team that was bad all around. We got the better end of the deal, but he'll do fine once the Jets stabilize their offense.

4) McCardell.

5) trotter.

6) Sage/ferotte have had some good games mixed in with the bad.

7) Role players like Brad Badger continue to survive in the league.
And so have players from every other franchise in the league
8) The Broncos are tickled pink with Chump Bailey.

9) even though on the downside B-Mitch did ok in NY/Philly.

10) Stan Humphries went to a SB.

core or not...plenty of Redskin talent has moved on to other teams and been serviceable.And players from every team in the league have done the same thing including some that came Washington and helped the Skins.That goes on with every sport and every team.No offense but I don't get your point.

[Tarpon75]

Logically you have to think that both sides have made mistakes during this saga.However,as stated all of this could have waited until after the season.What purpose does airing it now serve?I do believe wherever Lavar goes there wiil be controversy and the Redskins,as all teams have will make mistakes with personel.

[Nicealot]

I don't argue that Lavar is a better player than Holdman when Lavar is well. Problem was, Lavar wasn't back. He was still recovering, favoring his knee, and he missed all the reps he would have gotten in the offseason and the preseason. Therefore, he had a lot of catching up to do.

I think also there was some hope that Holdman would get out of his funk and pick things up. Often when a player struggles, you hope that he can play his way out of it. Unfortunatly, it didn't quite happen for Holdman.

Jason

Very well put.

What I just don't get, if LaVar is so much about the team, is why he always speaks in the first person ("I'm not the face of the team" "I have more jerseys in the stands" "I, I, I..." Why can't it just be about the team. Yes, he does mention the team from time to time, but listen, just listen to how he always manages to slip a first person singular comment about himself in the conversation as well...

And by the way, didn't LaVar complain at one point about being assigned to pass rushing duties under Marvin Lewis?

[scruffylookin]

Of course the team played a role in the Lavar situation. I would have thought this to be common sense. GW came in here and was all kinds of high on Lavar. Then the offseason crap goes down and the team doesn't need him. Suddenly he goes from making the coaching staff look good to being a freelancer. Blah blah. The team decided they didn't need him, and make no mistake about it they don't.

I'm shocked Lavar hasn't made more noise. He's not stupid and knows he's head and shoulders above Marshall and folding chair. He knows he's a better pass rusher then whatever 3rd stringer they put in there for him on 3rd downs. The writing is on the wall and MOST pro-bowl players would be in the media daily if they were shunned like Lavar has been.

Having said that Lavar is hurting my team by mouthing off at this crucial time in the season. I don't go to the games to watch Lavar, I go to watch the redskins. So if he has to go, cya bud. Sucks that it turned out this wya but since you can't do anything about it, may as well help your trade value and stfu about it.

:notworthy

While I do think this team could use a healthy LaVar, I pretty much agree with everything you wrote. LaVar has been my favorite player ever since he got here (and he's the first player I can remember watching in college, dreamed of the Redskins getting him and then the Redskins actually got him) and I also feel that the organization/defensive coaches are most responsible for this fracture in the relationship and that was evidenced by LaVar's position coach showing what a "man" he is by insulting LaVar on a personal level and not keeping things professional. But it is time to move on and focus on the team, not only for the playoffs :cheers: but for the seasons to come.

If I can get over Richie Petitbon getting rid of Gary Clark (all time favorite Redskin) and Wilbur Marshall, I'll get over the divorce of LA and the Skins.


:eaglesuck

[ZoEd]

Not a lawyer. No apology offered for the big words. No insecurity issue, the word has other uses. Not offended. No point in saying more about the rest of your response.

Instead I'll say this: as I read in another thread you posted in, we both share an intense interest in this site and the Redskins, and we both like hunting. And, judging by your location, we spend a lot of time in similar environements. Here's to taking care of priorities Sunday! :eaglesuck

Well Jumbo Hail to the Redskins brother. Here's to kicking the snot out of the Eagles and to agreeing to disagree. :laugh: A little healthy banter is good for all of us, keeps up from doing it with the wives.

Sure wish there was more hunting in the desert though.

[DCMONEY]

The New York Knicks also made it to the NBA Finals with Patrick Ewing injured. Did that mean they didn't have any better a shot at beating the Spurs if he had been healthy for the finals? :rolleyes:

All the facts you quoted mean is that TEAM can when without an individual, it doesn't mean that the individual cannot HELP the team, or that the team would not be better off if that player were PLAYING.

Good example.

[SkinsFTW]

Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

Yeah, the same as when players leave the Patriots. They ***** and moan, the Pats are unfair, Belichick is an ass, my Ring isn't shinier than the one they gave Patrick Pass etc.

But guess what?

The Pats keep winning.

I'm a Redskins fan.

All you Lavar fans can go and be a Chargers fan or a Steelers fan next year for all I care but I was a Redskins fan when Lavar wore huggies/pampers so it really doesn't matter to me that he isn't happy to receive the largest paycheck of a linebacker in the league to make a couple tackles a game and blow and assignment or 3. :2cents:

[DieselPwr44]

ZoEd is right, the vets act as if Gibbs is God and cannot make a mistake.

Gibbs is human and can and has made some mistakes in his football life.

If you were a betting man,betting the percentages of who's right more times than not, who would you put your money on? Lavar or Gibbs??

Gibbs put the only Lombardi trophies this franchise has ever seen in the trophy case out at Redskins Park so forgive me if I lay my money down on Gibbs to win. :2cents:

[SkinsFTW]

Yeah but Lavar helped us to an 8-8 record back in 2001. Cant forget that now. :D

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

McCardell, 11th round pick, long shot to stick around here anyways. He made it, good for him

?

How is it I was all of 14 when I went to Carlisle and figured out that McCardell was someone we should keep but a HoF staff didn't see that? Seriously.

Granted, it did take him a few more years, but it's not as if we couldn't have kept a 5th guy or stashed someone on IR.

that's why I don't automatically buy into every line that gets sold here at Extreme. Because I remember my own thoughts at the time and I know that us laymen can hit on things that others miss on.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

The majority (not all) of the "I support Lavar" arguments have been pretty much built on fact-free patent nonsense and emotionally- or ego-disrupted thinking, revisionist history, and idealized speculation to date.

And other than a handful of posters, you can't say the same for the other side? :2cents:

Please. You're better than that.

All I know is that every time we have a debate on this board, Pravda and its numerous outlets take one position and if you deviate from it, no matter how much supporting evidence, you get criticized for either presuming to know more than the "Hall of Fame" coaches or for not toeing the line of the cognoscenti here at Extreme.

It's not possible to be a positive OVERALL person but have specific criticisms. either you're a jerk who is always wrong or you're "right" and mr. Positive. If Antonio Brown doesn't return a kick for a TD, this whole board and the tenor of these debates change.

But only for a short while. As soon as they can scrape the barrel for the most tenuous link to their positions, they hold it up in the twilight and proclaim their victory and superiority. God forbid the other side do that, though.


I love the people who talk about deactivating him for the playoffs, as if in a 3-4 game tournament we wouldn't need his services. :doh:

[Jumbo]

Well Jumbo Hail to the Redskins brother. Here's to kicking the snot out of the Eagles and to agreeing to disagree. :laugh: A little healthy banter is good for all of us, keeps up from doing it with the wives.

Sure wish there was more hunting in the desert though.

Back atcha. A buddy of mine who's very much a hunter says that the best country in the SW is in NW Arizona and New Mexico. I guess unless you're into snakes and lizards it' hard to hunt, at least legally. But I really don't know the area. Ifyou do like varmit-type hunting, those new .17 calibre rifles are pretty damn cool. Sorry about the non-football post guys, next time I'll take it to PM.


:eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

[altair4]

Another Lavar apologist. I'm sorry. He is out of line and over the hill.

[Jumbo]

And other than a handful of posters, you can't say the same for the other side? :2cents:

Please. You're better than that.

All I know is that every time we have a debate on this board, Pravda and its numerous outlets take one position and if you deviate from it, no matter how much supporting evidence, you get criticized for either presuming to know more than the "Hall of Fame" coaches or for not toeing the line of the cognoscenti here at Extreme.

It's not possible to be a positive OVERALL person but have specific criticisms. either you're a jerk who is always wrong or you're "right" and mr. Positive. If Antonio Brown doesn't return a kick for a TD, this whole board and the tenor of these debates change.

But only for a short while. As soon as they can scrape the barrel for the most tenuous link to their positions, they hold it up in the twilight and proclaim their victory and superiority. God forbid the other side do that, though.


I love the people who talk about deactivating him for the playoffs, as if in a 3-4 game tournament we wouldn't need his services. :doh:


:laugh: That wasn't for you Ghosty. And I did qualify the comment. But I do mean it, and stand by it, even if it remains painting with a bit too broad a brush.

And brother, I was one of those street marchers in the late 60's before I could legally drive a car ( I've changed a little :laugh: ), so I fully support your whole anti-establishment gig. But I don't see the enemy as you see them, or at least what I see is a notably less ominous and less organized opponent than I believe is the one you tilt your lance at. Not that I wouldn't change anything you say, and you make a great advocate for your positions.

One thing I will defintely stand by you on, shoulder to shoulder, is the idea that topics like lavar, QB's, Snyder, portis, bad deals, Gibbs, management, drafts, etc. can be used as single-issue litmus tests for defining whether or not someone is a true Redskins fan. At some point, though, I do believe patterns, trends, or totals, can reasonbly be cited to indicate a reptitive style of stance for a poster that hardly seems fan-like in any normally defined manner. But that's a complex matter :D .

And, in case its got lost, re: Lavar, I'll re-iterate some other views I've posted: I want him on the team, IF he can cease his media-centered disruptive behavior. I think he's a definite contributor on the field, at times awesome, AND at times a definite f-up. Sorry. Its the same thing Williams, Lewis, and many many others say, and its hardly a ridiculous position on my part. But he's capable of being SO great if we could just get around the "I need to talk to the press today" syndrome. So I'm not in the "he's punk-azz useless" or the "he's an etrenal beast" camp. I like him and love what he says about the skins 50% of the time. The other half, he sucks, is distracting and destructive. I get genuinely concerned for him at times.

I hope I can always count on you to keep me on my game, Ghosty :cheers:

[ZoEd]

Gibbs is human and can and has made some mistakes in his football life.

If you were a betting man,betting the percentages of who's right more times than not, who would you put your money on? Lavar or Gibbs??

Gibbs put the only Lombardi trophies this franchise has ever seen in the trophy case out at Redskins Park so forgive me if I lay my money down on Gibbs to win. :2cents:

The thing is most of us in Lavar's camp are not making this a Lavar/Gibbs arguement. Most of us are simply stating that the majority want to crucify Lavar for speaking out about what he feels is poor treatment by the FO.

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

Bottom line if we look at these players as if they're a commodity and their only purpose in life is to be a company man then it's easy to disconnect. But if you look at them like they're men who happen to play a sport then it makes it diffucult to see things like this transpire. At what point do they become men with the right to speak out when they're being treated different or unjust?

I'm over it, bring on the Eagles.

[TheLongshot]

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

Considering that just about everyone says that Danny doesn't? Considering that most of us know that Gibbs wouldn't put up with it? Considering that the moves in the past couple of years are not much like the ones previous to that. Yes, the owner has some say, but Gibbs has the final word right now, mainly because Danny respects him.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

I agree with this for the most part. I think it wasn't handled very well, and I think if you asked Gibbs about that, he might agree with you.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

The fact is, Lavar did call a reporter to his house to tell him something. I believe he told whatever he wanted to say, period.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

At the same time, has Lavar acted like an adult in this whole deal? Has he acted like a professional? I know if someone continued to act like a child in front of me, I might lose it as well. It goes both ways. It certainly doesn't make it right, but that's one incident by a coach, as opposed to many by Lavar in over a year. The fact is, Lavar has more evidence against him. Patrick, in the meantime, bided his time, knowing his opportunity will come around again, and it has. Lavar makes it as painful as possible.

Jason

[ZoEd]

I guess we'll never know the truth. Let's just hope he can help us beat Philly, after that I guess it's just business.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

I just thought that was interesting considering the discussions on this board where it's automatically assumed that certain traits are a negative, mainly because they heard someone else use the word in a pejorative sense.

[DCMONEY]

The thing is most of us in Lavar's camp are not making this a Lavar/Gibbs arguement. Most of us are simply stating that the majority want to crucify Lavar for speaking out about what he feels is poor treatment by the FO.

It's easy to sit back and say JG won three trophies I believe him over Lavar but three trophies doesn't exonerate him from liability in the situation. Most of us want to believe that Joe and Gregg are in total control of this team but to think that Dan doesn't still pull the strings is just naive. There has to be something to all of this besides Lavar just being a crybaby.

When Joe benched Patrick a lot of us were outraged because Joe said he would be the starter and many people argue that fact that he was, for 1 half. He looks like a genius now and who can argue with his decision since MB has put together an excellent season. That doesn't mean the situation was handled correctly. PR played his guts out for this team and was rewarded with national humiliation. That's just not right, but as many of you will argue, as long as we win who cares. Call me a wuss, but I do.

Patrick has handled the situation like a trooper and it may have bought him more years in Washington. Lavar on the other hand has not, and may have very possibly sealed his doom. But to say it's all his fault for not keeping his mouth shut for what he feels are injustices is just crazy. How many of you have wanted to or have told your bosses to shove it where the sun don't shine? Lavar's living in a 20,000sqft home and obviously has the luxury to do just that. Poor timing? Maybe but if any of you think Lavar staged this to coincide with this game then I think you're making him out to be more of a jackass then what he really is.

I've spent 16yrs in the USAF and everyone is well aware how the rank structure in the military works. I however no matter what the persons rank is allow someone to speak to me like I am a child or speak down to me like I am less of a man than they are. When the uniform, military or sports, comes off we are all just men. For a coach to berate a player is pure bull****! Even if he totally screwed up that doesn't give a coach the right to speak to someone like they're anything less than a man. He's lucky Lavar didn't rip his head off. Then again he's just an emotional loose cannon that spouts off for no reason but has enough sense to not throttle someone berating him in front of his friends and teamates. I know this whole story hasn't been confirmed but from what I've read about Lindsey and how he treats players I'm sure there is some substance to it.

Bottom line if we look at these players as if they're a commodity and their only purpose in life is to be a company man then it's easy to disconnect. But if you look at them like they're men who happen to play a sport then it makes it diffucult to see things like this transpire. At what point do they become men with the right to speak out when they're being treated different or unjust?

I'm over it, bring on the Eagles.


Good post. The mere fact that these coaches would insinuate that Holdman was better for defense challenged the intelligence of the fans. Once again Lavar can make more plays by accident than Holdman would on purpose. Holdman started at WLB. How in the hell can't you make plays. Most times your responsibilty is the FB. People spout off Gibbs credentials like he can't be wrong in certain instances. All the Lavar bashers have to admit that the organization in Lavar's case looks suspect also. Lavar is definitely wrong in the timing of this interview though.

[SkinsFTW]

The question I have now is can the site change the avatar for 3000-4000 posts (i'm going to have it after a while, lol)?

Lavar isn't the franchise player anymore. I think it should be Portis or Moss now, maybe even Washington since he isn't going to be the Pro Bowler for long now since he was stiffed.

[TheLongshot]

Good post. The mere fact that these coaches would insinuate that Holdman was better for defense challenged the intelligence of the fans. Once again Lavar can make more plays by accident than Holdman would on purpose. Holdman started at WLB. How in the hell can't you make plays. Most times your responsibilty is the FB. People spout off Gibbs credentials like he can't be wrong in certain instances. All the Lavar bashers have to admit that the organization in Lavar's case looks suspect also. Lavar is definitely wrong in the timing of this interview though.

Only if you ignore what is out there. Did you read what I posted? :doh:

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

It all depends if "freelancing" is part of the defense. From watching Williams D, it feels like a very coordinated thing where you have to know what the other guys responsibilities are so you know where you are supposed to be.

Jason

[Jumbo]

Something that the NFL Access guys Terrell Davis and Rod Woodson pointed out, with great enthusiasm I point out, is that Junior Seau was a huge freelancer and Woodson, a HOF defensive player said that when you have a guy who can create havoc like an Arrington (and he believes he does when he plays) that such a player is special and there shouldn't be a question about whether or not you keep them.

I just thought that was interesting considering the discussions on this board where it's automatically assumed that certain traits are a negative, mainly because they heard someone else use the word in a pejorative sense.

Terrell & Rod state a pedestrian but valid point, depending on team/player/situation context, though I don't see it as bringing anything new to discussions on Lavar & the Redskins for many of us. But your second paragraph reaches a bit.

First, you sometimes do what you chastise others for in your energetic effrots to advocate for Lavar. Specifically, here you repeat the behavior of lumping all dissenters with your position together, something you understandably detest when you believe it's being done on the other "side".

Saying something is "automatically assumed" on "this board" is obviously unsupportable at face value, so serves no purpose other than to make you seem pedantic. And to quote an intelligent poster I know, "you're better than that".

You may guess at which indivduals arrived at a conclusion after thought and which are just reflexively parroting a POV they've adopted for whatever reason by their patterns, but either way there are always both types of reaction. They're obviously not all "automatic", especially just because they may (may) disagree with you in large volume. I, for instance, have given more than a little thought to the different approaches that have already been explored with Lavar's playing assignments, from freelancing to systemizing his play with varying degrees of control, in forming my opions.

And having formed a "read" on many other posters here, I have no doubt that though they may be far less favorable in their Lavar views, they have thought of how freelancing can be a fine quality, depending on the actual, real, consistent skils of the player, and the contextual setting for the defensive schemes as well as team chemistry. Therein lies many value judgements about those factors, and we can differ on whether its worth adjusting them towards re-emphasizing a freelancing Arrington or not.

And "this board", as you like to point out with justifiable intensity at times, can hardly be reduced to some narrow frame even on any one side of an issue.


BTW, :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck :eaglesuck

[JuiceMan_74]

This is not a clear cut issue, and the Redskins front office does have to take some of the blame in the way this has played out. Arrington wouldn't be the first player the team has handled poorly. Almost every player that leaves here has something negative to say about their treatment. Where there is smoke there's fire... and it's been burning for a while around here.

It's not just Lavar.

thank you, you mean to tell me that every player the redskins phased out is a malcontent?? no there more to it. the redskins do a great job of spinning stuff in there favor, erybody used to love lavar arrington and you guys have turned on him its ridicolous.