Immigrant Protest out my window

[Predicto]

Just looking out my window at the square in front of San Francisco City Hall. There are thousands and thousands of Hispanic people out there, all wearing white T-shirts, with more arriving in droves. I see dozens of American flags (and one or two Mexican flags). A band on the podium is playing a song in spanish about longing for America. The signs say things like "Mi Casa es Su Casa" and "I Don't Want to Be A Criminal - I Want to Work."

The crowd is very well behaved. There is one small group at the corner of the protest carrying signs saying "No Amnesty" and "Go Home" but guys in yellow "securidad" shirts have kept people away and they have not been able to rile anyone up. There is also a couple of little groups of communist "World Worker Party" types such who are milling on one edge trying to get some attention or credit for this thing - everyone is ignoring them.

It's very interesting but I'm not getting any work done.

[gchwood]

Just looking out my window at the square in front of San Francisco City Hall. There are thousands and thousands of Hispanic people out there, all wearing white T-shirts, with more arriving in droves. I see dozens of American flags (and one or two Mexican flags). A band on the podium is playing a song in spanish about longing for America. The signs say things like "Mi Casa es Su Casa" and "I Don't Want to Be A Criminal - I Want to Work."

The crowd is very well behaved. There is one small group at the corner of the protest carrying signs saying "No Amnesty" and "Go Home" but guys in yellow "securidad" shirts have kept people away and they have not been able to rile anyone up. There is also a couple of little groups of communist "World Worker Party" types such who are milling on one edge trying to get some attention or credit for this thing - everyone is ignoring them.

It's very interesting but I'm not getting any work done.



The Counter protesers are idiots, I don't mind if these people want to peacefully protest, however when they start purposely screwing up traffic patterns and stuff like that is when I get angry, plus I think that the people who are requesting amnesty are freakign idiots

[CalSkinsFan]

Just had several hundred march past my office (Ventura, CA) on my lunch hour. At first the procession ignored traffic lights, forcing me to go a few extra blocks before making my turn, but the smarter prevailed. Still, quite a few motorists slowing and honking to show support.

As with the OP, mostly American flags with some Mexican here and there. Very peaceful.

[Air Force Cane]

If we were like Mexico we would have agents out there demanding Identity cards and arresting hundreds of them..

[KAOSkins]

If we were like Mexico we would have agents out there demanding Identity cards and arresting hundreds of them..

Aren't you glad were not? :D

I just drove by our protestors 35+- in front of city hall. God Bless America!

[rincewind]

If we were like Mexico we would have agents out there demanding Identity cards and arresting hundreds of them..


If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle... :rolleyes:

[Predicto]

Oh, that is disgusting!

Now they are chanting a slogan, over and over....



















U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A-!

When will this outrage stop?????

[manleyistheman]

Quck! Cover the kids' ears. These people will stop at nothing. You can almost hear the fabric that makes up this great country tearing at the seams.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Throw out a burrito out the window and take pictures of the myhem that ensues :D

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Better yet, yell out the window,"INS, everybody run!"



taco, taco, burrito burrito - ms hennifer hopez

[heyholetsgogrant]

good for them...hopefully now people can call then humans, and not Illegals/criminals...

-Grant

[luckydevil]

If we were like Mexico we would have agents out there demanding Identity cards and arresting hundreds of them..

Thank God we are not Mexico

[PokerPacker]

i honostly feel sorry for these guys. the ones who actually want to be americans are the ones i think should stay. we should probably grease the wheels of the immigration system so that we don't have so many border hoppers in the first place.
we have plenty of illegals who actually want to be Americans, not mexicans working in America. If we got rid of the latter we would still have a significant work force.

[MisterPinstripe]

good for them...hopefully now people can call then humans, and not Illegals/criminals...

-Grant

Just because they are protesting peace fullydoesnt mean that those that are here illegal shouldnt go. They should still be put out of they are illegal. There is a reason for the law. And probably part of the reason they are protesting peacefully is that they know if they get arrested, they will be found out as illegal immigrants and be shipped back. They dont want that. How does saying they are illegally here make them no human? Doesnt change the fact they need to come legally... :doh:

[Cdowwe]

Stupidest protest ever.

[PleaseBlitz]

Stupidest protest ever.

Nope. Still these guys:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060318HollywoodProtest/CIMG0262.jpg

[PokerPacker]

Stupidest protest ever.
stupidest post ever :silly:

[Sarge]

Seen any INS agents?

[Cdowwe]

stupidest post ever :silly:

lol ouch

[Cdowwe]

Seen any INS agents?

No kidding. I was hoping they had some traps.

[The Evil Genius]

INS agents?

Want to turn a usual peaceful protest into a riot, do ya'?

INS is smarter than that, I hope.

[Redskins Diehard]

Oh, that is disgusting!

Now they are chanting a slogan, over and over....

U-S-A! U-S-A! U-S-A-!

When will this outrage stop?????

Well at least they are chanting a slogan in English!!


good for them...hopefully now people can call then humans, and not Illegals/criminals...

-Grant

Of course they are humans, and the ones that are here illegal, are human criminals.

There are people that post stupid stuff and say stupid things that I guess fall on "my side". Why it is demonized simply to want our(yours, mine...our) laws enforced until said laws are changed?

[Redskins Diehard]

Seen any INS agents?


No kidding. I was hoping they had some traps.


INS agents?

Want to turn a usual peaceful protest into a riot, do ya'?

INS is smarter than that, I hope.

Gentlemen, the INS is out of business. Those of you who served in the Army Air Corps should know this!!:)

[PokerPacker]

Gentlemen, the INS is out of business. Those of you who served in the Army Air Corps should know this!!:)
yeah, thier work force wen on strike today :laugh:

[Redskins Diehard]

yeah, thier work force wen on strike today :laugh:

The Immigration and Naturalization Service does not exist anymore. It went out with the creation of Homeland Security, or shortly thereafter.

[Predicto]

There are people that post stupid stuff and say stupid things that I guess fall on "my side". Why it is demonized simply to want our(yours, mine...our) laws enforced until said laws are changed?

Well, this is primarily a protest to get the laws changed, isn't it.

[Destino]

I spent some time looking at video and images from these protests. So many people marching in the streets chanting USA USA USA holding American flags. I can't believe people have managed to turn this into a negative event. How the hell can hundreds of thousands showing their love for the US be a bad thing. It's ****ing beautiful!

[Redskins Diehard]

Well, this is primarily a protest to get the laws changed, isn't it.

It would appear so. Is this a protest by US citizens to show their elected representatives that they are unhappy with the current laws? Or is a protest by non-citizens/illegals to force change upon us? Are the "protesters" demonstrating their worth, their value added to "our" society? Or are they attempting to show that we can not function without them?

You are a man of the law. I am sure it is not lost on you that "intent" is sometimes as important as "action".

[Redskins Diehard]

I spent some time looking at video and images from these protests. So many people marching in the streets chanting USA USA USA holding American flags. I can't believe people have managed to turn this into a negative event. How the hell can hundreds of thousands showing their love for the US be a bad thing. It's ****ing beautiful!

Destino, it is not the action that has turned this into a negative event. It is the stated intent of some of the movements leaders. Maybe they are just the loud mouths that are heard. Unfortunately right now the voices that proclaimed this to be a boycot to cripple cities are the ones that were heard. And I have a problem with that. I have posted with no response a sentence from the Washington Post that 1 of 47 organizations that sponsored the last set of demonstrations supported this today...so it is not an uncommon viewpoint, even within the movement.

[Destino]

Destino, it is not the action that has turned this into a negative event. It is the stated intent of some of the movements leaders. Maybe they are just the loud mouths that are heard. Unfortunately right now the voices that proclaimed this to be a boycot to cripple cities are the ones that were heard. And I have a problem with that. I have posted with no response a sentence from the Washington Post that 1 of 47 organizations that sponsored the last set of demonstrations supported this today...so it is not an uncommon viewpoint, even within the movement.

You can listen to those blow hards or you can open your eyes and see people chanting U-S-A and holding American flags high. Maybe I've been to more protests then you have, but this type of **** isn't the norm.

[Sarge]

I spent some time looking at video and images from these protests. So many people marching in the streets chanting USA USA USA holding American flags. I can't believe people have managed to turn this into a negative event. How the hell can hundreds of thousands showing their love for the US be a bad thing. It's ****ing beautiful!

Because after the backlash from the first protests, where everyone held a Mexican flag, the commies that helped organize the events wised up and told everyone to carry American flags

[Sarge]

So, where's Homeland Security? I thought Chertoff said we were going to get "tough" on illegals?:rolleyes:

[Redskins Diehard]

You can listen to those blow hards or you can open your eyes and see people chanting U-S-A and holding American flags high. Maybe I've been to more protests then you have, but this type of **** isn't the norm.

If these people are citizens or documented visitors then I say :applause: , as far as the illegals, they are still illegals and should try to effect change from their side of the border:2cents: .

[Redskins Diehard]

So, where's Homeland Security? I thought Chertoff said we were going to get "tough" on illegals?:rolleyes:

Homeland Security does not have agents per say. What you are looking for are ICE(Immigration and Customs Enforcement) agents. And the "C" carries quite a bit more priority than the "I" for those guys.

[CHUBAKAH]

I have 18 guys that are legal, and missed work today for this. What is it again they are there for?

[Destino]

Because after the backlash from the first protests, where everyone held a Mexican flag, the commies that helped organize the events wised up and told everyone to carry American flags

Sarge why do you just make stuff up? Seriously. Do you have proof that the change came from organizers? I find it hard to believe communists were like "ok guys this time we are going to be pro-america" because I've seen that ANSWER goon squad first hand at an Iraq rally in DC. These people would need to be medicated before they held a US flag... unless it was on fire. You just assume that some handler noticed the backlash and changed his evil plan... because you need a villain. Much easier to hate on enemies then people that share your values.

I found the reaction in the hispanic community was that what they saw wasn't right. Even Carlos Mencia was talking about how stupid it was on comedy central. Hispanic media was calling it a disgrace on the TV and radio, I heard it myself. So maybe immigrants are just like everyone else and looked and thought "that's not right" and proceeded to do something about it the next time... but that doesn't fit in with the world view of many here and thus can't be true.

[DCRunner]

If we were like Mexico we would have agents out there demanding Identity cards and arresting hundreds of them..

Perhaps that's one of the reasons they are here. I would think this would make you happy.

[Redskins Diehard]

I found the reaction in the hispanic community was that what they saw wasn't right. Even Carlos Mencia was talking about how stupid it was on comedy central. Hispanic media was calling it a disgrace on the TV and radio, I heard it myself. So maybe immigrants are just like everyone else and looked and thought "that's not right" and proceeded to do something about it the next time... but that doesn't fit in with the world view of many here and thus can't be true.

I'm sure it went from majority latin flags with a few US sprinkled in last time, to a majority US flag with a few latin sprinkled in overnight through mere happenstance. Why did this happen? Did their loyalty change? Or did they realize the tactic was wrong?

[Sarge]

Sarge why do you just make stuff up? Seriously. Do you have proof that the change came from organizers? I find it hard to believe communists were like "ok guys this time we are going to be pro-america" because I've seen that ANSWER goon squad first hand at an Iraq rally in DC. These people would need to be medicated before they held a US flag... unless it was on fire. You just assume that some handler noticed the backlash and changed his evil plan... because you need a villain. Much easier to hate on enemies then people that share your values.

I found the reaction in the hispanic community was that what they saw wasn't right. Even Carlos Mencia was talking about how stupid it was on comedy central. Hispanic media was calling it a disgrace on the TV and radio, I heard it myself. So maybe immigrants are just like everyone else and looked and thought "that's not right" and proceeded to do something about it the next time... but that doesn't fit in with the world view of many here and thus can't be true.

Go read the little commie site. I'm sure you already have it bookmarked, though.

http://www.answerla.org/

You do know it's May Day right? A "workers" holiday in socialist and commie nations.

What a coincidence :rolleyes:

[DCRunner]

Because after the backlash from the first protests, where everyone held a Mexican flag, the commies that helped organize the events wised up and told everyone to carry American flags

That is simply inaccurate. During the first protests the Metro in DC was full of people going to the protest and I was surprised that they almost all had American flags. All size flags. I actually didn't see one Mexican flag.

And, Sarge, please don't bring back that old canard about communists spearheading human rights protests. It's the same old diversionary tactic pulled during the civil rights days by those opposed to civil rights, i.e., that the commies were behind the civil rights movement. If a "commie" supported Mother's Day, would that make Mother's Day evil to you as well?

It would be laughable if it weren't just pathetic.

[Destino]

I'm sure it went from majority latin flags with a few US sprinkled in last time, to a majority US flag with a few latin sprinkled in overnight through mere happenstance. Why did this happen? Did their loyalty change? Or did they realize the tactic was wrong?
I'm going to have to call BS on "majority latin flags" - unless you attended how do you know. A lot of people close to me went to the rally in DC and according to the video, images, and what they tell me the flags were by American. There were some, and like I already said - it didn't sit well in the hispanic community.

[Redskins Diehard]

I'm going to have to call BS on "majority latin flags" - unless you attended how do you know. A lot of people close to me went to the rally in DC and according to the video, images, and what they tell me the flags were by American. There were some, and like I already said - it didn't sit well in the hispanic community.

I guess I'm stuck relying on the news...the same news you rely on for what is going in Iraq.

[Sarge]

That is simply inaccurate. During the first protests the Metro in DC was full of people going to the protest and I was surprised that they almost all had American flags. All size flags. I actually didn't see one Mexican flag.

And, Sarge, please don't bring back that old canard about communists spearheading human rights protests. It's the same old diversionary tactic pulled during the civil rights days by those opposed to civil rights, i.e., that the commies were behind the civil rights movement. If a "commie" supported Mother's Day, would that make Mother's Day evil to you as well?

It would be laughable if it weren't just pathetic.

I was speaking of the LA protests

As for the commies, you all make it way too easy.

Google is your friend. It took me about 30 seconds to hit these

But, true to liberal form, keep sticking your head in the sand :rolleyes:

Wait a minute, no commies here

http://blog.simmins.org/imm/Immigration010sm.jpg

Here commie, commie commie

http://blog.simmins.org/imm/Immigration020sm.jpg

Still no commies! Where can they be?

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060409Dallas01.jpg

http://blog.simmins.org/imm/Immigration026sm.jpg

Here commies. Come out, come out where ever you are!

http://blog.simmins.org/imm/Immigration029sm.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/55/126025622_f7563f887c_m.jpg

Your right, no commies. Go back to sleep :rolleyes:

[Ignatius J.]

Well sarge, it's nice to see you show us how few socialists are involved in these protests. I mean if you have the same guy holding different signs twice in your small sample, it's probably true that you are drawing from a rediculously small population. Out of how many hundreds of thousands of protesters, and you came up with the same guy twice? Also, doesn't it strike you as odd that only two people were making those signs? I mean they have the same handwriting, or the same font in the case of the honkies signs.

Also, Communists don't believe in the free flow of goods and services, and it seems you're the one in the thread that's leaning pinko. I know you really support socialism and want to see us put as many restrictions on businesses as possible, but really, get with the program. Free trade and commerce or bust.

[Destino]

Sarge is doing exactly what I said people were doing in the other thread. Fear mongering and using a handful of lunatics to represent a movement.

Of course Sarge likes to ignore these types of photos...
http://imgfarm.com/images/reuters/full/2006-05-01T204003Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_3_NEWS-USA-IMMIGRATION-DC.jpg

[Ignatius J.]

which are by and large the majority of people protesting, destino.

[Sarge]

Sarge is doing exactly what I said people were doing in the other thread. Fear mongering and using a handful of lunatics to represent a movement.

Of course Sarge likes to ignore these types of photos...
http://imgfarm.com/images/reuters/full/2006-05-01T204003Z_01_NOOTR_RTRIDSP_3_NEWS-USA-IMMIGRATION-DC.jpg

Ohhhhh, FEAR MONGERING.

Todays liberal "Word of the Day"

I guess next comes "Bigot" and "Racist"

You all are so very predictable

But like I said, go on back to sleep

[Destino]

Ohhhhh, FEAR MONGERING.

Todays liberal "Word of the Day"

I guess next comes "Bigot" and "Racist"

You all are so very predictable

But like I said, go on back to sleepYou're calling me predictable? I could reduce all of your posts in the tailgate to "Clinton bad, Socialist bad" and not lose much. :)

[NoCalMike]

I don't mind them protesting, but I do disagree with the issue. I just don't understand their position on this matter. Do they honestly feel like anyone should just be able to cross over the border, at any time, for any reason? It is ludicrious. Besides everything else I find wrong with it, when you break down the basic fundamentals of the issue, what the illegal immigrants are doing is wrong.

I don't even understand why any of the legal immigrants are out there protesting, no one is making a law to mess with their status.

[Destino]

I don't mind them protesting, but I do disagree with the issue. I just don't understand their position on this matter. Do they honestly feel like anyone should just be able to cross over the border, at any time, for any reason? It is ludicrious. Besides everything else I find wrong with it, when you break down the basic fundamentals of the issue, what the illegal immigrants are doing is wrong.

I don't even understand why any of the legal immigrants are out there protesting, no one is making a law to mess with their status.

I can't speak for all immigrants but I've talked to a lot of hispanics about this issue and almost all agree the border needs to be shut down. The debate centers about what to do with those already here.

[Sarge]

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/US/05/01/immigrant.day/newt1.1956.wash.dc.ap.jpg

From CNN"s front page.

Note the A.N.S.W.E.R. poster

Visit their wewbsite. I've already posted it once

http://www.answerla.org/index.htm

[Sarge]

Here's the San Franfreako site, headed up by our old bud, Ramsey Clark

http://www.actionsf.org/

[Sarge]

I can't speak for all immigrants but I've talked to a lot of hispanics about this issue and almost all agree the border needs to be shut down. The debate centers about what to do with those already here.

WHy is this so hard for you all? THey have broken the law by coming here illegally.

Arrest them and deport them

[NoCalMike]

I can't speak for all immigrants but I've talked to a lot of hispanics about this issue and almost all agree the border needs to be shut down. The debate centers about what to do with those already here.


Ok well I can't entirely buy that because thus far I haven't heard of any plan by either the Dems or Repubs to Deport or Send back anyone. If anything the general consensus seems to be the ones that are here, we can't do anything about, but how do we stop the mass illegal immigration from happening.

I think many people on my side of the policital spectrum(lefty mcliberal) are not looking at this issue closely enough to see how illegal immigration is hurting the potential for american's unskilled workers, also how it helps break unions. I mean sheesh, it's like first they want to send our manufacturing jobs overseas, but that isn't good enough, now they want to outsource service jobs as well.

[Sarge]

Ok well I can't entirely buy that because thus far I haven't heard of any plan by either the Dems or Repubs to Deport or Send back anyone. If anything the general consensus seems to be the ones that are here, we can't do anything about, but how do we stop the mass illegal immigration from happening.

I think many people on my side of the policital spectrum(lefty mcliberal) are not looking at this issue closely enough to see how illegal immigration is hurting the potential for american's unskilled workers, also how it helps break unions. I mean sheesh, it's like first they want to send our manufacturing jobs overseas, but that isn't good enough, now they want to outsource service jobs as well.

The simple answer is a fence. Then sort the rest of the mess out

[Destino]

Ok well I can't entirely buy that because thus far I haven't heard of any plan by either the Dems or Repubs to Deport or Send back anyone. If anything the general consensus seems to be the ones that are here, we can't do anything about, but how do we stop the mass illegal immigration from happening.

I think many people on my side of the policital spectrum(lefty mcliberal) are not looking at this issue closely enough to see how illegal immigration is hurting the potential for american's unskilled workers, also how it helps break unions. I mean sheesh, it's like first they want to send our manufacturing jobs overseas, but that isn't good enough, now they want to outsource service jobs as well.
Don't take this the wrong way but - have you been living under a rock? The last round of protests centered around a GOP effort to make illegal status a felony. If you have ever been convicted of a felony you can never obtain legal status and thus are subject to immediate arrest (cops right now do not enforce immigration for the most part). Look at Sarge in this thread, turn on the AM talk stations, listen to politicians speak. There are a lot of people out there demanding people be deported immediately.

I don't buy the hurting american workers idea because the nation is currently at or very near full employment. If illegals were taking jobs and leaving people without, that wouldn't be the case. The border needs to be secure, I've been saying that for years. Illegals here that can prove they are able to support themselves should stay (which is basically the plan that will pass very soon in congress IMO).

[KAOSkins]

WHy is this so hard for you all? THey have broken the law by coming here illegally.

Arrest them and deport them

Would that include arresting every single employer that hired them too? They've been used, by very sneaky business owners and their government buddies to lower the wages of all of us in some cases. The meat packing plants come to mind. It is racism when you target half the problem with harsh measures, because the perps are a different color than you and ignore the other half who share yours.

[twa]

Would that include arresting every single employer that hired them too? They've been used, by very sneaky business owners and their government buddies to lower the wages of all of us in some cases. The meat packing plants come to mind. It is racism when you target half the problem with harsh measures, because the perps are a different color than you and ignore the other half who share yours.


I would gladly include any that knowingly hired them.

btw: there are plenty of all races that hire them here.

[Sarge]

Would that include arresting every single employer that hired them too? They've been used, by very sneaky business owners and their government buddies to lower the wages of all of us in some cases. The meat packing plants come to mind. It is racism when you target half the problem with harsh measures, because the perps are a different color than you and ignore the other half who share yours.

I don't care if they are flaming green, they came here illegally.......period. If they are not here sucking off the government tit, employers can't hire them

[Sarge]

I notice CNN didn't keep the "ANSWER" pic on the front page long.

Gee, I wonder why?:rolleyes:

[KAOSkins]

I would gladly include any that knowingly hired them.

btw: there are plenty of all races that hire them here.

Ehh. Shouldn't it be at the forefront of the issue though? Which misdemeanor is more egregious?

Crossing the border to feed your family and working like a dog. Or, hiring illegals to increase your profit margin.

I was generalizing and I think the numbers would bear me out on that. But that would hold true here too. Hell, if sarge would agree with that, and maybe he does I would think differently.

[Sarge]

Ehh. Shouldn't it be at the forefront of the issue though? Which misdemeanor is more egregious?

Crossing the border to feed your family and working like a dog. Or, hiring illegals to increase your profit margin.

I was generalizing and I think the numbers would bear me out on that. But that would hold true here too. Hell, if sarge would agree with that, and maybe he does I would think differently.

It is part of the problem, but at least it's an American making money by running a business

Illegals came here by breaking the law. If their country is so ****ty, that's their problem

[Ignatius J.]

The whole it's illegal so they are wrong argument is rediculous to me.

The law is wrong. I see this as just about on par with blacks going into whites only cafes during the civil rights movement. They were breaking the law too, so they should have been hung, right?

If there were a mechanism for these people to come here legally and they skirted it, you would have a point. Heck I'd agree with you. But when the law says that they can't come here when our ancestors did basically the same thing, I think that's a load of baloney. The law is wrong and it needs to be changed. There needs to be some kind of system by which unskilled mexican workers ae allowed to enter the country to find work. If they can't find work, we ship them out in a few months, if they do, they should be allowed to proceed down the path to citizenship. I'm not even saying it should be easy to do that, just that it should be possible. Under current law it is not.

[KAOSkins]

I don't care if they are flaming green, they came here illegally.......period. If they are not here sucking off the government tit, employers can't hire them

How hypocritical is it to say they can't be hired if they are sucking off the government tit? I don't get that. It's a two sided issue - both sides are wrong and should pay for it. I'm not for giving any side responsible for creating this freaking mess any slack. I guess I'm a little more hard core than you are.

Shipping them back to Mexico isn't going to happen because I (and most people who have thought about it for minute) don't want my taxes going up enough to fund that sort of thing. It's not possible. But they should pay what they owe in back taxes and be provided the opportunity to become citizens if they earn it.

[KAOSkins]

It is part of the problem, but at least it's an American making money by running a business

Illegals came here by breaking the law. If their country is so ****ty, that's their problem

Well it's your problem and mine now too isn't it? Lay a little blame on the have your cake and eat it too attitude of the feds. And don't the businesses pay more taxes when their profits are up due to lower wages?

[stevenaa]

It is part of the problem, but at least it's an American making money by running a business

Illegals came here by breaking the law. If their country is so ****ty, that's their problem

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Let's not split hairs. You can't justify the American breaking the law in the name of making money. If an American business owner employs illegals, he/she is the problem. Without the jobs, they wouldn't be crossing over.

[luckydevil]

WHy is this so hard for you all? THey have broken the law by coming here illegally.

Arrest them and deport them

"One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: There are just and there are unjust laws. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with Saint Augustine that An unjust law is no law at all."

[skinz4evr]

I would protest too if I had broken laws and entered a country ILLEGALLY and not paid taxes either because my name couldn't be registered. But only of course, if I was so fortunate that the country I did this in was not China, Korea, Mexico or any of the MANY countries where living there illegally gets you imprisoned indefinitely. Yes I would certainly love the U.S.A!!

[NoCalMike]

Don't take this the wrong way but - have you been living under a rock? The last round of protests centered around a GOP effort to make illegal status a felony. If you have ever been convicted of a felony you can never obtain legal status and thus are subject to immediate arrest (cops right now do not enforce immigration for the most part). Look at Sarge in this thread, turn on the AM talk stations, listen to politicians speak. There are a lot of people out there demanding people be deported immediately.

I don't buy the hurting american workers idea because the nation is currently at or very near full employment. If illegals were taking jobs and leaving people without, that wouldn't be the case. The border needs to be secure, I've been saying that for years. Illegals here that can prove they are able to support themselves should stay (which is basically the plan that will pass very soon in congress IMO).

Ann Coulter wants them deported immediately, Rush Limbaugh & Michael Savage too. Republicans with the big business interests may put forth lip service about it, but they know who is padding their wallets and in no way want them deported. If anything they want what Bush wants, a Guest Worker program so that we can use them for cheap labor, and then send them home with zero rights.

[cjcdaman]

If anything they want what Bush wants, a Guest Worker program so that we can use them for cheap labor, and then send them home with zero rights.

Yeah baby! :D

Total joke. :)

[NoCalMike]

Here Destino, I posted this article for you, to kind of let you know where I'm coming from.......

Today's Immigration Battle
Corporatists vs. Racists (and Labor is Left Behind)

by Thom Hartmann

The corporatist Republicans ("amnesty!") are fighting with the racist Republicans ("fence!"), and it provides an opportunity for progressives to step forward with a clear solution to the immigration problem facing America.

Both the corporatists and the racists are fond of the mantra, "There are some jobs Americans won't do." It's a lie.

Americans will do virtually any job if they're paid a decent wage. This isn't about immigration - it's about economics. Industry and agriculture won't collapse without illegal labor, but the middle class is being crushed by it.

The reason why thirty years ago United Farm Workers' Union (UFW) founder César Chávez fought against illegal immigration, and the UFW turned in illegals during his tenure as president, was because Chávez, like progressives since the 1870s, understood the simple reality that labor rises and falls in price as a function of availability.

As Wikipedia notes: "In 1969, Chávez and members of the UFW marched through the Imperial and Coachella Valley to the border of Mexico to protest growers' use of illegal aliens as temporary replacement workers during a strike. Joining him on the march were both the Reverend Ralph Abernathy and U.S. Senator Walter Mondale. Chávez and the UFW would often report suspected illegal aliens who served as temporary replacement workers as well as who refused to unionize to the INS."

Working Americans have always known this simple equation: More workers, lower wages. Fewer workers, higher wages.

Progressives fought - and many lost their lives in the battle - to limit the pool of "labor hours" available to the Robber Barons from the 1870s through the 1930s and thus created the modern middle class. They limited labor-hours by pushing for the 50-hour week and the 10-hour day (and then later the 40-hour week and the 8-hour day). They limited labor-hours by pushing for laws against child labor (which competed with adult labor). They limited labor-hours by working for passage of the 1935 Wagner Act that provided for union shops.

And they limited labor-hours by supporting laws that would regulate immigration into the United States to a small enough flow that it wouldn't dilute the unionized labor pool. As Wikipedia notes: "The first laws creating a quota for immigrants were passed in the 1920s, in response to a sense that the country could no longer absorb large numbers of unskilled workers, despite pleas by big business that it wanted the new workers."

Do a little math. The Bureau of Labor Statistics says there are 7.6 million unemployed Americans right now. Another 1.5 million Americans are no longer counted because they've become "long term" or "discouraged" unemployed workers. And although various groups have different ways of measuring it, most agree that at least another five to ten million Americans are either working part-time when they want to work full-time, or are "underemployed," doing jobs below their level of training, education, or experience. That's between eight and twenty million un- and under-employed Americans, many unable to find above-poverty-level work.

At the same time, there are between seven and fifteen million working illegal immigrants diluting our labor pool.

If illegal immigrants could no longer work, unions would flourish, the minimum wage would rise, and oligarchic nations to our south would have to confront and fix their corrupt ways.

Between the Reagan years - when there were only around 1 to 2 million illegal aliens in our workforce - and today, we've gone from about 25 percent of our private workforce being unionized to around seven percent. Much of this is the direct result - as César Chávez predicted - of illegal immigrants competing directly with unionized and legal labor. Although it's most obvious in the construction trades over the past 30 years, it's hit all sectors of our economy.

Democratic Party strategist Ann Lewis just sent out a mass email on behalf of former Wal-Mart Board of Directors member and now US Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. In it, Lewis noted that Clinton suggests we should have: "An earned path to citizenship for those already here working hard, paying taxes, respecting the law, and willing to meet a high bar for becoming a citizen." Sounds nice. The same day, on his radio program, Rush Limbaugh told a woman whose husband is an illegal immigrant that she had nothing to worry about with regard to deportation of him or their children because all he'd have to do - under the new law under consideration - is pay a small fine and learn English.

The current Directors of Wal-Mart are smiling.

Meanwhile, the millions of American citizens who came to this nation as legal immigrants, who waited in line for years, who did the hard work to become citizens, are feeling insulted, humiliated, and conned.

Shouldn't we be compassionate? Of course.

But there is nothing compassionate about driving down the wages of any nation's middle class. It's the most cynical, self-serving, greedy, and sociopathic behavior you'll see from our "conservatives."

There is nothing compassionate about being the national enabler of a dysfunctional oligarchy like Mexico. An illegal workforce in the US sending an estimated $17 billion to Mexico every year - second only in national income to that country's oil revenues - supports an antidemocratic, anti-worker, hyperconservative administration there that gleefully ships out of that nation the "troublesome" Mexican citizens - those lowest on the economic food-chain and thus most likely to present "labor unrest" - to the USA. Mexico (and other "sending nations") need not deal with their own social and economic problems so long as we're willing to solve them for them - at the expense of our middle class. Democracy in Central and South America be damned - there are profits to be made for Wal-Mart!

Similarly, there is nothing compassionate about handing higher profits (through a larger and thus cheaper work force) to the CEOs of America's largest corporations and our now-experiencing-record-profits construction and agriculture industries.

What about caring for people in need? Isn't that the universal religious/ethical value? Of course.

A few years ago, when my family and I were visiting Europe, one of our children fell sick. A doctor came to the home of the people we were staying with, visited our child at 11 pm on a weeknight, left behind a course of antibiotics, and charged nothing. It was paid for by that nation's universal health care system. We should offer the same to any human being in need of medical care - a universal human right - in the United States.

But if I'd applied to that nation I was visiting for a monthly unemployment or retirement check, I would have been laughed out of the local government office. And if I'd been caught working there, I would have been deported within a week. Caring for people in crisis/need is very different from giving a job or a monthly welfare check to non-citizens. No nation - even those in Central and South America - will do that. And neither should the United States.

But if illegal immigrants won't pick our produce or bus our tables won't our prices go up? (The most recent mass-emailed conservative variation of this argument, targeting paranoid middle-class Americans says: "Do you want to pay an extra $10,000 for your next house?") The answer is simple: Yes.

But wages would also go up, and even faster than housing or food prices. And CEO salaries, and corporate profits, might moderate back to the levels they were during the "golden age of the American middle class" between the 1940s and Reagan's declaration of war on the middle class in the 1980s.

We saw exactly this scenario played out in the US fifty years ago, when unions helped regulate entry into the workforce, 35 percent of American workers had a union job, and 70 percent of Americans could raise a family on a single, 40-hour-week paycheck. All working Americans would gladly pay a bit more for their food if their paychecks were both significantly higher and more secure. (This would even allow for an increase in the minimum wage - as it did from the 1930s to the 1980s.)

But what about repressive régimes? Aren't we denying entrance to this generation's equivalent of the Jews fleeing Germany? This is the most tragic of all the arguments put forward by conservatives in the hopes compassionate progressives will bite. Our immigration policies already allow for refugees - and should be expanded. It's an issue that needs more national discussion and action. But giving a free pass to former Coca-Cola executive Vincente Fox to send workers to the US - and thus avoid having to deal with his own corrupt oligarchy - and to equate this to the Holocaust is an insult to the memory of those who died in Hitler's death camps - and to those suffering in places like Darfur under truly repressive regimes. There is no equivalence.

It's frankly astonishing to hear "progressives" reciting corporatist/racist/conservative talking points, recycled through "conservative Democratic" politicians trying to pander to the relatively small percentage of recently-legal (mostly through recent amnesties or birth) immigrants who are trying to get their relatives into this country by means of Bush's proposed guest worker program or the many variations thereof being proposed.

It's equally astonishing to hear the few unions going along with this (in the sad/desperate hope of picking up new members) turn their backs on César Chávez and the traditions and history of America's Progressive and Union movements by embracing illegal immigration.

Every nation has an obligation to limit immigration to a number that will not dilute its workforce, but will maintain a stable middle class - if it wants to have a stable democracy. This has nothing to do with race, national origin, or language (visit Switzerland with it's ethnic- and language-dived areas!), and everything to do with economics.

Without a middle class, any democracy is doomed. And without labor having - through control of labor availability - power in relative balance to capital/management, no middle class can emerge. America's early labor leaders did not die to increase the labor pool for the Robber Barons or the Walton family - they died fighting to give control of it to the workers of their era and in the hopes that we would continue to hold it - and infect other nations with the same idea of democracy and a stable middle class.

The simple way to do this today is to require that all non-refugee immigrants go through the same process to become American citizens or legal workers in this country (no amnesties, no "guest workers," no "legalizations") regardless of how they got here; to confront employers who hire illegals with draconian financial and criminal penalties; and to affirm that while health care (and the right to provide humanitarian care to all humans) is an absolute right for all people within our boundaries regardless of status, a paycheck, education, or subsidy is not.

The Republican (and Democratic) corporatists who want a cheap labor force, and the Republican (and Democratic) racists who want to build a fence and punish humanitarian aid workers, are equally corrupt and anti-progressive. As long as employers are willing and able (without severe penalties) to hire illegal workers, people will risk life and limb to grab at the America Dream. When we stop hiring and paying them, most will leave of their own volition over a few years, and the remaining few who are committed to the US will obtain citizenship through normal channels.

This is, after all, the middle-class "American Dream." And how much better this hemisphere would be if Central and South Americans were motivated to stay in their own nations (because no employer in the US would dare hire them) and fight there for a Mexican Dream and a Salvadoran Dream and a Guatemalan Dream (and so on).

This is the historic Progressive vision for all of the Americas...


http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm

[luckydevil]

. Republicans with the big business interests may put forth lip service about it, but they know who is padding their wallets and in no way want them deported. If anything they want what Bush wants, a Guest Worker program so that we can use them for cheap labor, and then send them home with zero rights.

They are right for the wrong reasons

[shippy1973]

How do you explain a comment like this? How does this serve the purpose....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060501/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_us_boycott

In Guatemala, May Day marchers chanted: "The gringos criticize us, but without immigrants they'd be nothing."

Something is wrong with that statement... Maybe the "IN GUATEMALA" portion perhaps. Well I guess quotes like that will certainly get me to support your movement.... :rolleyes:

Soooo let me thank all of you who helped me be the person I am today. Without you, I would be nothing.

[luckydevil]

But there is nothing compassionate about driving down the wages of any nation's middle class.

Economic bunk parroted by xenophobia racists. This has proven wrong time after time. Damn empirical studies.

If there is any segment of society that is being hurt by illegal immigration, it's high school dropouts.

[NoCalMike]

Economic bunk parroted by xenophobia racists. This has proven wrong time after time. Damn empirical studies.

If there is any segment of society that is being hurt by illegal immigration, it's high school dropouts.


And your point? It's our non-skilled highschool drop outs that should be getting jobs over Mexico's highschool drop outs.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

Unfortunately, the radical left is taking over this movement...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/05/01/dobbs.immigrantprotests/index.html

NEW YORK (CNN) -- We all awoke to headlines in our nation's most important newspapers reminding us that this is "A Day Without Immigrants." Not illegal immigrants, mind you, but immigrants.

USA Today headlined today's demonstrations and boycott "On Immigration's Front Lines." The New York Times headlines its story "With Calls for Boycott by Immigrants, Employers Gird for Unknown." The Washington Post and The Los Angeles Times are both calling their coverage "The Immigration Debate."

These major newspapers obviously don't want to disturb their readers with the information that today's demonstrations and boycott are about illegal immigration and amnesty for illegal aliens.

CNN and Fox News are both using a banner calling their coverage "A Day Without Immigrants," while MSNBC is titling its coverage "Immigrant Anger."

Most of the mainstream media has been absolutely co-opted by the open borders and illegal immigration advocates. I'm not opposed to demonstrations and protests of any kind, even by those who are not citizens of this country, because one way or another, demonstrations and protests enrich and invigorate the national debate and raise the public consciousness of truth.

But only one newspaper, to its credit, reported that illegal aliens and their supporters' boycott of the national economy on the First of May is clear evidence that radical elements have seized control of the movement. The Washington Post, alone among national papers, reported that ANSWER (Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) has become an active promoter of the national boycott.

[link to rest above]

[skinfan13]

Nope. Still these guys:

http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/pictures/20060318HollywoodProtest/CIMG0262.jpg i would seriously shoot the breeze with a general instead of even coming near these wackos, i think they'd tear me limb from limb if they found out i want to be a marine.... not that i wouldnt give a good fight though:laugh:

[skinfan13]

The Immigration and Naturalization Service does not exist anymore. It went out with the creation of Homeland Security, or shortly thereafter. aha! so thats why my leters arent getting anywhere....

not that i send any;)




but seriously i dont

[skinfan13]

If a "commie" supported Mother's Day, would that make Mother's Day evil to you as well? a comunist wouldnt nescisarily suport mother's day, in communism your love goes to the govt, not to personal loyalties:2cents:

[luckydevil]

And your point? It's our non-skilled highschool drop outs that should be getting jobs over Mexico's highschool drop outs.

I am sorry I reject nationalism (be it conservative or liberal). I am always baffled when people like you advocate that I should some how be morally obligated to support certain people simply because they, not by choice I might add, have been born in the same general geographical location as me. I place equal value on a Mexican (or any other country) and an American life. Please do make the case why Joe Blow American deserves better opportunities than Joe Blow Mexican? Other than the fact that I won the geographic lottery

I can't recall where I read this, but I recall a certain commenter making the point that there is a pretty good test to determine who is a true liberal and who isn't (this includes libertarians and leftists). It is whether their moral circle extends to those beyond their border as to those within it.

You sir fail that test (as does Hartmann).

[NoCalMike]

I am sorry I reject nationalism (be it conservative or liberal). I am always baffled when people like you advocate that I should some how be morally obligated to support certain people simply because they, not by choice I might add, have been born in the same general geographical location as me. I place equal value on a Mexican (or any other country) and an American life. Please do make the case why Joe Blow American deserves better opportunities than Joe Blow Mexican? Other than the fact that I won the geographic lottery

I can't recall where I read this, but I recall a certain commenter making the point that there is a pretty good test to determine who is a true liberal and who isn't (this includes libertarians and leftists). It is whether their moral circle extends to those beyond their border as to those within it.

You sir fail that test (as does Hartmann).


I am not talking about legal immigrants. I think you are failing the test as to what our laws are.

If someone comes here legally, then any job they want is up for grabs and may the best man get the job, however I am talking about illegal immigration. And you know the businesses that are breaking our laws by hiring them and not paying minimum wage.

[jbooma]

Ohhhhh, FEAR MONGERING.

Todays liberal "Word of the Day"

I guess next comes "Bigot" and "Racist"

You all are so very predictable

But like I said, go on back to sleep

Sarge shutup for once.

This it not a liberal thing, this is a human thing. So what if these people are illegal. If you do not understand the impact they have in this country then you have no clue. Most of those that are against illegals do not completely understand the desire they have to work and make a living trumps anything most of americans we wait for a check every week from welfare so they can complain again.

I give all of them so much more respect then many in this country do not understand how special it is to walk down the street on any given day. Those that just want to throw all of them out saw today how much they mean to the economy.

[skinfan13]

I can't speak for all immigrants but I've talked to a lot of hispanics about this issue and almost all agree the border needs to be shut down. The debate centers about what to do with those already here. i've talked with a lot of legal imigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Mexico about the issue recently. the legals are actually MAD that those who border hop are trying to get amnesty when good hard working people come here the right way and are rewarded, and then illegals turn around want the same rights as those who come here the right way.

but to put my official opinion on the situation in a paragraph:
the whole issue itself is much more complicated than anyone on either side really can imagine, except for those directly involved. there are good hard working legals who loose their jobs to illegals who will acept less than minimum wage. on the other hand these people come here mostly to work, to feed their families.

h/o there skinfan13, but people keep posting the majority of illegal imigrants WANT to be americans? also people have posted that in Mexico and all around central america people are starving and barley earning a living, while others say this is flase?

well i can answer both of these: the truth is most illegal are more interested in america dollars for their families than being americans, giving them citizenship is not the answer. granted there are those who do want an american life.

as for starvation people need o keep in mind when they say that it doesnt happen, they are shown what the government (mexican) wants you to see, and when you vacation there you generally do not get a feel for the country. i have been on 3 mission trips to guatemala, and one to nicuragua. i can say with full certanty that these people are in quite an economic quandry. in Guatemala it IS true that a majority of the population are malnurished and alot of people ARE starvng because they cannot aford food. the average monthly wages in guatemala is $40 US DOLLARS
people are living in absolte poverty, they come here just to work to keep their families alive. i have seen what central america is like outside tourist zones.

i have said this a few times but i think the best option for our country and for these people:
-close the border
-set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work
-create some sort of ellis island system for those who want to become citizens (hey it worked way back when)
-give illegals here the status to be able to work for three more years and then give them the option of returning home or registering.
- give economic aid to central america

what peple need to realize is that they come here because their countries are corupt and poverty striken. take care of the problem THERE and the problem starts to become less of an issue HERE. economic aid for central america is probably the best option, i mean these people are our neighbors, they need our help. but the way they are handling the problem isnt right.

also when people say that the imigrants should know beter and get papers and do it the legal way; they dont know the legal way. in guatemala the literacy rate is only 27%, people cannot read or write because education isnt free. they only know that the way to america is over the fence.

this isnt coming from a republican either; this is coming from a christian who believes that these guys are people too, and they need our help.

it makes me mad though when ilegals say that they are america, i say no, you arent america, but im willing to extend a hand to help you out. when they start to mutilate my anthem thats when my eye starts to twitch and my resolve to help slightly loosen, those kind of things only make the issue worse. i also believe that those who DO want to become citizens should try to learn english and while keeping their culture alive (a fascinating culture at that), they should try to be american too.

edit: also to clarify because some stuff was choped in the middle:
-i am a conservative republican
-i am a christian
- i go on mission trips to guatemala and central america every summer, thats why i can say the things i do: i know about the issue a little bit better becasue for a month a year i am imersed in latin american culture (its a fascinating culture by the way, with a great human spirit and family orientation, some people should incorporate those kind of things in their own life.)

[luckydevil]

I am not talking about legal immigrants. I think you are failing the test as to what our laws are.

If someone comes here legally, then any job they want is up for grabs and may the best man get the job, however I am talking about illegal immigration. And you know the businesses that are breaking our laws by hiring them and not paying minimum wage.

So I guess we are back to the whole illegal immigrant canard. Please don't try to fall on the whole law and order card. You don't make a good conservative.

I have to quote MLK again

"One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer is found in the fact that there are two types of laws: There are just and there are unjust laws. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with Saint Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all."

Lets be honest here Mike, if you want to stop illegal immigration, than you should support ending quotas. But we both know that you don't

This is what you said earlier in this thread

"Do they honestly feel like anyone should just be able to cross over the border, at any time, for any reason? It is ludicrious. Besides everything else I find wrong with it, when you break down the basic fundamentals of the issue, what the illegal immigrants are doing is wrong."

Clearly you oppose freedom of movement.

[Ignatius J.]

heck of a post skin fan 13.

[DjTj]

skinfan13, you actually sound a lot like President Bush, John McCain, or Arlen Specter on this issue. It's probably because like them, you are:
-i am a conservative republican
-i am a christian
- i go on mission trips to guatemala and central america every summer, thats why i can say the things i do: i know about the issue a little bit better becasue for a month a year i am imersed in latin american culture (its a fascinating culture by the way, with a great human spirit and family orientation, some people should incorporate those kind of things in their own life.)In many ways, what you propose is exactly what the Senate is considering now.

i have said this a few times but i think the best option for our country and for these people:
-close the border
-set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work
-create some sort of ellis island system for those who want to become citizens (hey i worked way back when)
-give illegals here the status to be able to work for three more years and then give them the option of returning home or registering.
- give economic aid to central americaThe guest worker program that passed the Senate Judiciary Committee was a 3-year visa with an optional 3-year renewal and then a 5-year extension that could lead to citizenship. Only workers that stayed for 11 years would then become citizens.

You have to realize that the way Ellis Island worked was that we let EVERYONE in as long as they passed a health inspection. That system was effectively shut down in 1924 when we started ramping up restrictive quotas. I don't think we'll ever go back to the Ellis Island open borders system, but we can certainly be more realistic about who we allow into the country.

Did you know that if you became a legal immigrant today and you wanted to sponsor your brother to help him get legal immigration status, he would have to wait at least 15 years before a green card became available?

Our laws right now simply don't make sense - that's why millions of people are breaking them. Hopefully more people will think like you, skinfan13, and we can actually make some progress on this difficult issue.

[Fergasun]

The problem with a "Guest" worker plan is that none of these workers are planning on being guests. They will bring their families, which includes aunts, uncles, nephews and nieces. They wouldn't leave after any 3 year period, and if we aren't deporting people now we won't later.

A guest worker plan just sets up another amnesty 20 years down the road.

I like the idea of keeping the status quo with greater enforcement for 3 years, and then upping the amount of legal immigrants to a more reasonable level. After another 3 years of this we can talk about a Guest Worker plan. We need to establish order at the border and in the interior.

[Sarge]

Sarge shutup for once.

This it not a liberal thing, this is a human thing. So what if these people are illegal. If you do not understand the impact they have in this country then you have no clue. Most of those that are against illegals do not completely understand the desire they have to work and make a living trumps anything most of americans we wait for a check every week from welfare so they can complain again.

I give all of them so much more respect then many in this country do not understand how special it is to walk down the street on any given day. Those that just want to throw all of them out saw today how much they mean to the economy.


Sorry, been to more Turd World countries than most of you combined. I've posted here before that every American should be given a tour of a Turd World country, just so they can appreciate what they have here.

That's part of my problem with uncontrolled immigration. I don't want this country turned into a Turd World ****hole by having Turd World cultures come here and set up shop.

As to your point, what part of "Illegal" don't you understand? If I want to become a serial murderer, is that my right? How about a child pornographer if that's how I want to feed my family? Or a burgler?

I don't care a lick about people that come here illegally, they are law breakers and disrespect my country by coming here the way they do.

And then they come here and DEMAND RIGHTS?

Kiss my ass

[luckydevil]

Sorry, been to more Turd World countries than most of you combined. I've posted here before that every American should be given a tour of a Turd World country, just so they can appreciate what they have here.

That's part of my problem with uncontrolled immigration. I don't want this country turned into a Turd World ****hole by having Turd World cultures come here and set up shop.

The amusing thing is your economic views are strongly favored in third world countries.

[skinz1972]

i've talked with a lot of legal imigrants from El Salvador, Guatemala, and Mexico about the issue recently. the legals are actually MAD that those who border hop are trying to get amnesty when good hard working people come here the right way and are rewarded, and then illegals turn around want the same rights as those who come here the right way.

but to put my official opinion on the situation in a paragraph:
the whole issue itself is much more complicated than anyone on either side really can imagine, except for those directly involved. there are good hard working legals who loose their jobs to illegals who will acept less than minimum wage. on the other hand these people come here mostly to work, to feed their families.

h/o there skinfan13, but people keep posting the majority of illegal imigrants WANT to be americans? also people have posted that in Mexico and all around central america people are starving and barley earning a living, while others say this is flase?

well i can answer both of these: the truth is most illegal are more interested in america dollars for their families than being americans, giving them citizenship is not the answer. granted there are those who do want an american life.

as for starvation people need o keep in mind when they say that it doesnt happen, they are shown what the government (mexican) wants you to see, and when you vacation there you generally do not get a feel for the country. i have been on 3 mission trips to guatemala, and one to nicuragua. i can say with full certanty that these people are in quite an economic quandry. in Guatemala it IS true that a majority of the population are malnurished and alot of people ARE starvng because they cannot aford food. the average monthly wages in guatemala is $40 US DOLLARS
people are living in absolte poverty, they come here just to work to keep their families alive. i have seen what central america is like outside tourist zones.

i have said this a few times but i think the best option for our country and for these people:
-close the border
-set up a guest worker program for those who just want to work
-create some sort of ellis island system for those who want to become citizens (hey it worked way back when)
-give illegals here the status to be able to work for three more years and then give them the option of returning home or registering.
- give economic aid to central america

what peple need to realize is that they come here because their countries are corupt and poverty striken. take care of the problem THERE and the problem starts to become less of an issue HERE. economic aid for central america is probably the best option, i mean these people are our neighbors, they need our help. but the way they are handling the problem isnt right.

also when people say that the imigrants should know beter and get papers and do it the legal way; they dont know the legal way. in guatemala the literacy rate is only 27%, people cannot read or write because education isnt free. they only know that the way to america is over the fence.

this isnt coming from a republican either; this is coming from a christian who believes that these guys are people too, and they need our help.

it makes me mad though when ilegals say that they are america, i say no, you arent america, but im willing to extend a hand to help you out. when they start to mutilate my anthem thats when my eye starts to twitch and my resolve to help slightly loosen, those kind of things only make the issue worse. i also believe that those who DO want to become citizens should try to learn english and while keeping their culture alive (a fascinating culture at that), they should try to be american too.

edit: also to clarify because some stuff was choped in the middle:
-i am a conservative republican
-i am a christian
- i go on mission trips to guatemala and central america every summer, thats why i can say the things i do: i know about the issue a little bit better becasue for a month a year i am imersed in latin american culture (its a fascinating culture by the way, with a great human spirit and family orientation, some people should incorporate those kind of things in their own life.)skinsfan,who's fault is it that those ppl make $40/month?their dangum leaders who live high on the hog.

[dreamshatterer]

Even with the Guest worker program, wasn't there a loophole or still is? When a mother and father who are here illegally, have a child on US soil, the child is a citizen. Not sure, but it use to be both parents would become citizens and now its just the mothers that become citizens?

[KAOSkins]

Sorry, been to more Turd World countries than most of you combined. I've posted here before that every American should be given a tour of a Turd World country, just so they can appreciate what they have here.

You know stopping in a port or base and going to the bars and whore houses near it aren't exactly the way to get a feel for a place. You could do the same thing in most ports of this country or any country for that matter. And you would have no concept of the place. And yeah, I've lived in third world countries for extended periods of time throughout my life.

That's part of my problem with uncontrolled immigration. I don't want this country turned into a Turd World ****hole by having Turd World cultures come here and set up shop.

I have only seen one poster here that would suggest uncontrolled immigration is a good thing. We need our government to have the stones to control it. Write your fellow right wing lawmakers and tell them so. Of course when they read the racist leaning which are the only leg you seem to stand on, they would dismiss you too.

As to your point, what part of "Illegal" don't you understand? If I want to become a serial murderer, is that my right? How about a child pornographer if that's how I want to feed my family? Or a burgler?

Or a speeder or someone who was guilty of disorderly conduct after a night at the bar and whore house. Hell, our military accepts most people guilty of the same level of crime as illegal entrants to our country.


I haven't seen you drawn out of your one liners often, and now I know why. Your shallow argument is based on your dislike for certain people, and you refuse to acknowledge or discuss any evidence that indicates they actually contribute (both positively and negatively) to the economy of this country. Like it or not they undeniably do. And you my friend would pay an an inordinate price to kick them out and would continue to pay after they were gone. I imagine you'd be the first one cryin like a stuck pig if that happens. But since it's not gonna happen...what are you going to do?

[Sarge]

You know stopping in a port or base and going to the bars and whore houses near it aren't exactly the way to get a feel for a place



ANd people talk about sterotypes :rolleyes:


And yeah, I've lived in third world countries for extended periods of time throughout my life.

And you want those standards to come here? No thanks


Write your fellow right wing lawmakers and tell them so.

ALready did it. In fact I called the White House yesterday and asked where the INS/Homeland Security was?


Hell, our military accepts most people guilty of the same level of crime as illegal entrants to our country

Here you have no clue as to what you are talking about. A DUI will get you booted out of the military

[Thiebear]

I give all of them so much more respect then many in this country do not understand how special it is to walk down the street on any given day. Those that just want to throw all of them out saw today how much they mean to the economy.

They mean zero... anyone, anywhere can be replaced in a month...
Do the right thing... go to the local INS and register.. then we'll talk.

[Predicto]

skinsfan,who's fault is it that those ppl make $40/month?their dangum leaders who live high on the hog.

Is that all you got out of skinsfan's brilliant post?

[Predicto]

Even with the Guest worker program, wasn't there a loophole or still is? When a mother and father who are here illegally, have a child on US soil, the child is a citizen. Not sure, but it use to be both parents would become citizens and now its just the mothers that become citizens?

Neither becomes a citizen.

[Sarge]

Neither becomes a citizen.

I thought the child could eventually sponsor the parents in?

[Predicto]

I thought the child could eventually sponsor the parents in?

Perhaps, a few decades down the road. Infants don't sponsor anyone.

What I thought the poster above was saying was that if you have a child here, you automatically get citizenship, which isn't true.

[Sarge]

Perhaps, a few decades down the road. Infants don't sponsor anyone.

What I thought the poster above was saying was that if you have a child here, you automatically get citizenship, which isn't true.

Ah ha. I'm pretty sure though that once the kid reaches 18 they can sponsor their parents

[Predicto]

Ah ha. I'm pretty sure though that once the kid reaches 18 they can sponsor their parents

Could be. Dunno to tell the truth, but even 18 years is a dang long time.

I am sure whatever the rule currently is now, it will be changing in the next couple of years. This has become too much of a hot button issue - we are either going to get more strict on illegal immigrants, get more lenient on them, or (hopefully) completely change the way we do the entire thing.

[KAOSkins]

ANd people talk about sterotypes :rolleyes:

Hello pot, I am kettle. But then refute me and we'll have something to talk about. If you have spent a lot of time in the "hinterlands" then I take it back.

And you want those standards to come here? No thanks

They are already here and I don't see it standards. I can drive 50 miles and see em though. The difference is clear as night and day. But never have I said we need to let every single person that wants to in. Just enough to satisfy demand.

ALready did it. In fact I called the White House yesterday and asked where the INS/Homeland Security was?

Good. I have respect for that.

Here you have no clue as to what you are talking about. A DUI will get you booted out of the military

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2005/rpt/2005-R-0556.htm

I respect what you've done for our country and your right to have whatever opinion you see fit. But would it kill ya to just try to be a little reasonable? Sometime? Your gonna wind up giving me a heart attack and the fact is on many things I am on the same side as you.

[skinfan13]

skinsfan,who's fault is it that those ppl make $40/month?their dangum leaders who live high on the hog. you obviously missed the meaning of my post by a mile and only saw the numbers:


what peple need to realize is that they come here because their countries are corupt and poverty striken. take care of the problem THERE and the problem starts to become less of an issue HERE.

[dchogs]

i'll jump into the fray with my personal experience with the local rally:

ran into a traffic blockade of police on my way to pick up my son from play practice. lots of hispanics running around with both american and mexican flags. very peaceful and very upbeat... lots of horn honking and cheering and the like. i was delayed a bit, but no big deal...

unfortunately, it appears that the rally took a turn for the worse with the ralliers (is that a word?) throwing rocks and stuff. cops were called in from all over san diego county to control the situation. couldn't hear much from our house other than a chopper flying around. i sure did double check our locks just to make sure no one could find an easy way in.

it's sad that the cheerful display of mexican-american pride turned into something cliche. that being said, i'm 100% in favor of making our illegial immigration laws more strict, but at the same time making LEGAL immigration easier to obtain (for everyone, not just the mexicans).