Mexico threatens lawsuits over Guard (merged)

[Sarge]

Un-****ing-believable

We take steps to secure OUR side of the border and get sued :doh:

So since they have enough money to bring suit, they now obviously have enough money to start taking care of their own people, right :rolleyes:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/05/16/mexico.immigration.ap/index.html

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico (AP) -- Mexico warned Tuesday it would file lawsuits in U.S. courts if National Guard troops detain migrants on the border and some officials said they fear the crackdown will force illegal crossers into more perilous areas to avoid detection.

Bush announced Monday that he will send 6,000 National Guard troops to the 2,000-mile (3,200-kilometer) U.S.-Mexico border, but said the troops will provide intelligence and surveillance support to U.S. Border Patrol agents and will not catch and detain illegal immigrants.

"If there is a real wave of rights abuses, if we see the National Guard starting to directly participate in detaining people ... we would immediately start filing lawsuits through our consulates," Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said in an interview with a Mexico City radio station.

Mexican officials worry the crackdown will lead to immigrant deaths. Since the U.S. toughened security at crossing spots in Texas and California in 1994, immigrants have flooded Arizona's hard-to-patrol desert and deaths have increased.

Immigrant groups estimate 500 people died trying to cross the border in 2005. The Border Patrol reported 473 deaths as of September 30.

In Ciudad Juarez, Mexico, Julieta Nunez Gonzalez, the local representative of Mexico's National Immigration Institute, said Tuesday she will ask the Mexican government to send a protection force, Grupo Beta, to remote sections of the border.

Sending the National Guard "will not stop the flow of migrants. To the contrary, it will probably go up," as people try to get into the U.S. with hopes of applying for a possible amnesty program, Nunez said.

Waiting to cross in Ciudad Juarez was Juan Canche, 36, who traveled 2,000 kilometers (1,243 miles) to the border from the southern Mexican town of Izamal, where he had left his wife, five children and mother.

"Even with a lot of guards and soldiers in place, we have to jump that puddle," said Canche, referring to the drought-stricken Rio Grande, dividing Ciudad Juarez and El Paso, Texas. "My family is hungry and there is no work in my land. I have to risk it."

Mexican newspapers Tuesday characterized the National Guard plan as a hardening of the U.S. position, and some criticized President Vicente Fox for not taking a stronger stand, though Fox called Bush on Sunday to express his concerns.

Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, said Tuesday that Mexico accepted Bush's statement that the Guard troops didn't imply a militarization of the area, and that Mexico remained "optimistic" that the U.S. Senate would approve an immigration reform "in the interests of both countries."

He noted Bush expressed support for the legalization of some immigrants and the implementation of a guest worker program.

"This is definitely not a militarization," said Aguilar, who also dismissed as "absolutely false" rumors that Mexico would send its own troops to the border in response.

Critics have accused Bush of using the plan to win support for immigration reform from U.S. conservatives, who are more interested in tightening border security.

Bush said it was a stopgap measure while the Border Patrol builds up its resources to more effectively secure the border.

Presidential hopeful Felipe Calderon of Fox's National Action Party issued a statement that the military presence would endanger migrants without stopping them.

"These measures have been proven mistaken. They increase the social and human costs for migrants and only benefit criminal groups that make money on the hopes and suffering of those looking for an opportunity," Calderon said.

Salvadoran President Tony Saca said he was worried that there could be an increase in abuses against immigrants because National Guard troops are trained to handle natural disasters and wars.

Along the border in Nuevo Laredo, across from Laredo, Texas, Honduran Antonio Auriel said he was determined to make it into the United States.

"Soldiers on the border? That won't stop me," he said. "I'll swim the river and jump the wall. I'm going to arrive in the United States."

[Warhead36]

Wait a second wait a second....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm sorry....but WHA?

Wouldn't they have to ILLEGALLY cross our borders to take this into an AMERICAN courthouse?

This is like me suing Bank of America because they won't let me rob their bank.

[cjcdaman]

Wait a second wait a second....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm sorry....but WHA?

Wouldn't they have to ILLEGALLY cross our borders to take this into an AMERICAN courthouse?

This is like me suing Bank of America because they won't let me rob their bank.

:applause:

[Xameil]

Wait a second wait a second....

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I'm sorry....but WHA?

Wouldn't they have to ILLEGALLY cross our borders to take this into an AMERICAN courthouse?

This is like me suing Bank of America because they won't let me rob their bank.


well ya know if you tripped over the velvet rope while trying to rob the bank, you could sue them.

[Teller]

Nice. First illegal immigrants are dictating US policy. Now foreign governments are trying. Excuse me, United States citizen and voter here!!! Any chance I could get someone to represent me? :whoknows:

[Larry]

This is like me suing Bank of America because they won't let me rob their bank.

If he'd pay me what he's spending to make me stop robbing him, I'd stop robbing him.

[28rdsknsfn28]

All I can say about this is WTF???

[Larry]

I think Bush's private response would be "I'm sending troops to investigate reports that foreign military troops are invading my country. (I think that's called "War", isn't it?)"

And my public response would be "I'll agree that the Nation of Mexico has standing to represent their citizens just as soon as the Nation of Mexico agrees that they'll take back all of their citizens I'm deporting."

[Taylor 36]

What a joke. Mexico is asking for another ass kicking, I guess.

[TC4]

:doh:

This is just f--ked up

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060516/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/mexico_us_immigration_6

Mexico Threatens Suits Over Guard Patrols

By MARINA MONTEMAYOR, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 45 minutes ago

CIUDAD JUAREZ, Mexico - Mexico said Tuesday that it would file lawsuits in U.S. courts if National Guard troops on the border become directly involved in detaining migrants.

Mexican border officials also said they worried that sending troops to heavily trafficked regions would push illegal migrants into more perilous areas of the U.S.-Mexican border to avoid detection.

President Bush announced Monday that he would send 6,000 National Guard troops to the 2,000-mile border, but they would provide intelligence and surveillance support to Border Patrol agents, not catch and detain illegal immigrants.

"If there is a real wave of rights abuses, if we see the National Guard starting to directly participate in detaining people ... we would immediately start filing lawsuits through our consulates," Foreign Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez told a Mexico City radio station. He did not offer further details.

Mexican officials worry the crackdown will lead to more deaths. Since Washington toughened security in Texas and California in 1994, migrants have flooded Arizona's hard-to-patrol desert and deaths have spiked. Migrant groups estimate 500 people died trying to cross the border in 2005. The Border Patrol reported 473 deaths in the fiscal year ending Sept. 30.

In Ciudad Juarez, Julieta Nunez Gonzalez, local representative of the Mexican government's National Immigration Institute, said Tuesday she will ask the government to send its migrant protection force, known as Grupo Beta, to more remote sections of the border.

Sending the National Guard "will not stop the flow of migrants, to the contrary, it will probably go up," as people try to get into the U.S. in the hope that they could benefit from a possible amnesty program, Nunez said.

Juan Canche, 36, traveled more than 1,200 miles to the border from the southern town of Izamal and said nothing would stop him from trying to cross.

"Even with a lot of guards and soldiers in place, we have to jump that puddle," said Canche, referring to the drought-stricken Rio Grande dividing Ciudad Juarez and El Paso, Texas. "My family is hungry and there is no work in my land. I have to risk it."

Some Mexican newspapers criticized President Vicente Fox for not taking a stronger stand against the measure, even though Fox called Bush to express his concerns.

A political cartoon in the Mexico City newspaper Reforma depicted Bush as a gorilla carrying a club with a flattened Fox stuck to it.

Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, said Tuesday that Mexico accepted Bush's statement that the sending in the National Guard didn't mean militarizing the area. He also said Mexico remained "optimistic" that the U.S. Senate would approve an immigration reform "in the interests of both countries."

Aguilar noted that Bush expressed support for the legalization of some immigrants and implementation of a guest worker program.

"This is definitely not a militarization," said Aguilar, who also dismissed as "absolutely false" rumors that Mexico would send its own troops to the border in response.

Bush has said sending the National Guard is intended as a stopgap measure while the Border Patrol builds up resources to more effectively secure the border.

In Nuevo Laredo, across from Laredo, Texas, Honduran Antonio Auriel said he would make it into the U.S.

"Soldiers on the border? That won't stop me," he said. "I'll swim the river and jump the wall. I'm going to arrive in the United States."

[twa]

Already posted ;)

[luckydevil]

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=155797

[Sarge]

Beat ya to it, ya bigot:laugh:

[Johnny Punani2]

Mexico is a country of leeches

[Rdskns2000]

I think we should bring the troops home and just invade Mexico. That's right. We'll just take half of Mexico and call it our 51st state and put those mexicans there.


Why Mexico is still a third world country is beyond me. Since they can't do the job, we'll just take it.


Yeah, I know this is just a silly rant but Mexico is really pissing me off.

[Major Harris]

did mexico say something?

[Teller]

did mexico say something?

"Mexico warned Tuesday it would file lawsuits in U.S. courts if National Guard troops detain migrants on the border..."

Apparently so.

;)

[dreamingwolf]

why havent we invaded mexico? With our stewardship, that state could be fantastic.

[Major Harris]

"Mexico warned Tuesday it would file lawsuits in U.S. courts if National Guard troops detain migrants on the border..."

Apparently so.

;)
turn sarcasm radar on, dude.


now, we have determined mexico said something.

next question: is anybody listening?

[drums and skins]

I think we should bring the troops home and just invade Mexico. That's right. We'll just take half of Mexico ...

We already did... Its called Texas

[Major Harris]

We already did... Its called Texas
well, no good job should remain unfinished.....:cool:

[KAOSkins]

Ehh, you guys are just pissed (as am I) because their government is doing more to look out for their citizens in this situation than ours is doing to look out for us. :2cents:


Border security, while extremely important in the war on terror, takes a back seat to reform IMO - when talking about immigration. Do the latter right and the former will be a piece of cake. We have the employees we need, they don't die crossing hundreds of miles of brutal desert. Hell, just about any one of them that currently wants to be here is anyway. They are almost all employed. We need them, they need us. How does the common sense here elude you? Could it be....Satan? (church lady reference jk)

Edit: added words in bold.

[Teller]

turn sarcasm radar on, dude.


now, we have determined mexico said something.

next question: is anybody listening?

I saw the humor in it. Really. I even wondered how seismologists figure out the land that makes up Me-hee-co was talking.

And apparently, only said seismologists are listening so far. On the other hand, maybe the rocks aren't talking at all. Maybe Mexico just has gas. :whoknows:

[Major Harris]

Ehh, you guys are just pissed (as am I) because their government is doing more to look out for their citizens than ours is doing to look out for us. :2cents:
their government doesn't do a whole lot to look out for their citizens. if they did, not so many would want to be here.



Border security, while extremely important in the war on terror, takes a back seat to reform IMO - when talking about immigration. Do the latter right and the former will be a piece of cake.

once we fix the problem, sure. but it can't be fixed w/ out securing our borders.


Hell, just about any one of them that currently wants to be here is anyway.

that's not true in the least.

[cjcdaman]

Mexico and threatens in the same sentence? :laugh:

Where is the grounds for this "lawsuit"?

In the words of me, "Bring it!"

[KAOSkins]

their government doesn't do a whole lot to look out for their citizens. if they did, not so many would want to be here.

You got in before my edit there.



once we fix the problem, sure. but it can't be fixed w/ out securing our borders.

This is where we disagree. If we allow the ones who are going to get here anyway and be employed into the country. There aren't any more economic illegalls. Just baddies. They are much easier to pick out when they aren't among a couple million others.


that's not true in the least.

How do you figure? It's so easy I could do it.

I'm not suggesting open borders. But if they knew within a reasonable time that their turn would come I am sure they would wait rather than spend the money and go through the hell of the trip across the desert. And the ones that didn't would be far fewer and easier to catch.

[Fergasun]

Mexico is our friend and neighbor .... they wouldn't do this. Bush said so last night.

[TC4]

Beat ya to it, ya bigot:laugh:

Same to you there ya right wing loony :laugh:

Like you :jk:

[KAOSkins]

Mexico and threatens in the same sentence? :laugh:

Where is the grounds for this "lawsuit"?

In the words of me, "Bring it!"

Dude, it's illegal for the military to get involved in law enfourcement. Haven't you been watching the news? They would probably win the lawsuits to top it off.

Before I misrepresent myself here, let me clarify. I fully support guarding our borders. I just think it will be much easier and cheaper to reform immigration to allow in the numbers we need before we spend a buttload of money that will turn out to be wasted once we do the reforms.

[Major Harris]

Dude, it's illegal for the military to get involved in law enfourcement. Haven't you been watching the news? They would probably win the lawsuits to top it off.

Before I misrepresent myself here, let me clarify. I fully support guarding our borders. I just think it will be much easier and cheaper to reform immigration to allow in the numbers we need before we spend a buttload of money that will turn out to be wasted once we do the reforms.
they both have to be done.
i think the quotas are ****ed up.
i think we should offer a viable path to citizenship to those here that SHOULD include financial restitution.
i think we need to secure our borders so that we don't reach this crux again.

[KAOSkins]

they both have to be done.
i think the quotas are ****ed up.
i think we should offer a viable path to citizenship to those here that SHOULD include financial restitution.
i think we need to secure our borders so that we don't reach this crux again.

Ahh, that's really the argument isn't it? Which should come first...la migra or the mexican? Nice take.

[Thiebear]

So they will remove all military from their southern border first...?

[Major Harris]

Ahh, that's really the argument isn't it? Which should come first...la migra or the mexican? Nice take.
to me, if there are wave upon wave coming in while we're trying to work out granting a path to citizenship for the millions here, we're back to square one. or 2 steps forward and 1 back, at best. ;)

[KAOSkins]

So they will remove all military from their southern border first...?

I didn't read anywhere that they would sue just because we have the military there. Only if the act as law enforcement. It's not against their law for their military to do so. As I said, their government looks out for them on immigration issues better than ours does.

[Major Harris]

I didn't read anywhere that they would sue just because we have the military there. Only if the act as law enforcement. It's not against their law for their military to do so. As I said, their government looks out for them on immigration issues better than ours does.
i'm not an expert on the law.....but if our military can't act as law enforcement against non-citizens entering our country, then that is a law that needs to change.

edit: djtj is here. tell us about the law, please. :D

[KAOSkins]

to me, if there are wave upon wave coming in while we're trying to work out granting a path to citizenship for the millions here, we're back to square one. or 2 steps forward and 1 back, at best. ;)

That's a good point. Tell you congressmen to get off their arses before we go broke needlessly. If they insist on dilly dallying around, then you're right and we have no choice but to build the wall (an electronic one I hope).

[twa]

Since the stated quotas are less than the number already coming ,enforcement should be the priority...not too mention all those that do not qualify that will wish to come anyway.

[KAOSkins]

Since the stated quotas are less than the number already coming ,enforcement should be the priority...not too mention all those that do not qualify that will wish to come anyway.

Don't you figure once there aren't anymore jobs they will stop? There are only so many jobs that an uneducated immigrant who doesn't speak the language can do. No matter what the pay.

[cjcdaman]

they both have to be done.
i think the quotas are ****ed up.
i think we should offer a viable path to citizenship to those here that SHOULD include financial restitution.
i think we need to secure our borders so that we don't reach this crux again.


I totally agree.


i'm not an expert on the law.....but if our military can't act as law enforcement against non-citizens entering our country, then that is a law that needs to change.

I totally agree again.


Dude, it's illegal for the military to get involved in law enfourcement. Haven't you been watching the news? They would probably win the lawsuits to top it off.

Yes, I know that. But, you have to understand that Bush said that the Guard will serve as a "secondary" assistance to the Border Patrol. I do see your point. My point is that none(if any are filed) of these lawsuits will pass/succeed.

Basically KAO, what I'm trying to say is that Mexican government is "threatening" lawsuits if our Guard gets involved in the enforcement of the law. Then I read where they say(in a nutshell) "this only means that illegal immigrants will cross more dangerous entries." :doh: And....... What the hell is their point? They should not be coming here illegally in the first place. We are doing what we should do. We are protecting our borders. Sorry Mexico, that we have to bring in the National Gurad to assist us before we can bring in more Border Patrol. :doh:

[twa]

Don't you figure once there aren't anymore jobs they will stop? There are only so many jobs that an uneducated immigrant who doesn't speak the language can do. No matter what the pay.

Unfortunately they can earn more here without a job than most do in Mexico.

One or two days a week day labor or even collecting cans and scrap metal is a raise...trust me I know a few.

[Sarge]

Yes, I know that. But, you have to understand that Bush said that the Guard will serve as a "secondary" assistance to the Border Patrol. I do see your point. My point is that none(if any are filed) of these lawsuits will pass/succeed.



They are probably going ot be used to keep tabs on the Minutemen

[KAOSkins]

They are probably going ot be used to keep tabs on the Minutemen

:laugh: Now that is fresh. Good one Sarge.


Basically KAO, what I'm trying to say is that Mexican government is "threatening" lawsuits if our Guard gets involved in the enforcement of the law. Then I read where they say(in a nutshell) "this only means that illegal immigrants will cross more dangerous entries." :doh: And....... What the hell is their point? They should not be coming here illegally in the first place. We are doing what we should do. We are protecting our borders. Sorry Mexico, that we have to bring in the National Gurad to assist us before we can bring in more Border Patrol. :doh:

You're right of course, for the most part. Facing the reality that the people will try and die, is a being little more pragmatic than most of us and demonstrates a caring for their people. I am not naive enough to think it's purely alturistic, it's in large part political CYA. But it's more than our politicos have done for us up to this point (unless you're an employer who uses them). I agree that the guard should be there, they have to be there, and I think we should get those new BP agents coached up real quick like. So they don't have to be anymore. We need them elsewhere.

[Lady Brave]

I totally feel that, if warranted, the Guard should be used in a law enforcement capacity. The primary reason for having a National Guard is to protect and defend the borders of our country. It's pretty simple. It's in the constitution. Maybe Mexico needs to sit down and read it sometime. Heck, let's just take a moment to read what the National Guard states what their purpose is:

Excerpt - The colonial militias protected their fellow citizens from Indian attack, foreign invaders, and later helped to win the Revolutionary War. Following independence, the authors of the Constitution empowered Congress to "provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia." However, recognizing the militia's state role, the Founding Fathers reserved the appointment of officers and training of the militia to the states. Today's National Guard still remains a dual state-Federal force.

Today, tens of thousands of Guardmembers are serving in harm's way in Iraq and Afghanistan, as the National Guard continues its historic dual mission, providing to the states units trained and equipped to protect life and property, while providing to the nation units trained, equipped and ready to defend the United States and its interests, all over the globe.

Why do we continually bend over backwards to "respect Mexico because they are our neighbor and our friend." As far as I'm concerned, my neighbor doesn't come into my house unless they are invited.

[G-Prime]

We definately need to take a hard lined stance on this telling them simply "It's our border, mind your own business".

[Bang]

I don't see securing our border as "law enforcement". I see it as national security.
If securing the border is to be done under law enforcement agencies, then hypothetically an invading army can sue us if we send our military to stop them.
This makes absolutely NO sense.
In it's essence our military is for defense, hence them being controlled by the department with the same name. How on earth that means we can't use our military to defend our border... if it wasn't happening i'd think it was a plot for a cartoon.

Any judge that hears this case in our courts should be removed from the bench. Basically, they 'll be allowing another country to sue for the right to break our laws.

Again,. this makes absolutely NO sense.

~Bang

[Major Harris]

I don't see securing our border as "law enforcement". I see it as national security.
If securing the border is to be done under law enforcement agencies, then hypothetically an invading army can sue us if we send our military to stop them.
This makes absolutely NO sense.
In it's essence our military is for defense, hence them being controlled by the department with the same name. How on earth that means we can't use our military to defend our border... if it wasn't happening i'd think it was a plot for a cartoon.

Any judge that hears this case in our courts should be removed from the bench. Basically, they 'll be allowing another country to sue for the right to break our laws.

Again,. this makes absolutely NO sense.

~Bang
:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Buford]

I don't see what's been proposed as securing anything. It seems like a Symbolic "Look over here!" gesture to get person believing that something is going to change.

[Larry]

Dude, it's illegal for the military to get involved in law enfourcement. Haven't you been watching the news? They would probably win the lawsuits to top it off.

But it is not illegal for the military to get involved in National Defense. And that's what border security is.

Yes, it would be illegal for the National Guard to be raiding landscaping companies in LA checking for green cards. It's not illegal at all for them to, say, attack and kill everybody in a military convoy that's invading US soil. (Heck, it might ever be covered by a General Order.)

(IMO, where Mexico might have a case is that the US, I believe, has signed treaties with Mexico covering how the US will treat Mexican citizens who break US law. In one of those funny little coincidences, one of those treaties was the subject of one of those famous Alberto Gonzales "legal opinions" to then-Governor W. W was ignoring a treaty with Mexico, and Mexico sued, and Gonzales wrote the stunning legal opinion that US treaties don't apply to Texas, because Texas didn't sign the treaty (the US did.))

[Prosperity]

I don't see securing our border as "law enforcement". I see it as national security.
If securing the border is to be done under law enforcement agencies, then hypothetically an invading army can sue us if we send our military to stop them.
This makes absolutely NO sense.
In it's essence our military is for defense, hence them being controlled by the department with the same name. How on earth that means we can't use our military to defend our border... if it wasn't happening i'd think it was a plot for a cartoon.

Any judge that hears this case in our courts should be removed from the bench. Basically, they 'll be allowing another country to sue for the right to break our laws.

Again,. this makes absolutely NO sense.

~Bang

What he said...
Maybe they are just mad about the drug thing. I know I am, so many vacation opportunities ruined. :mad:

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I can see this scenario happening. Some Mexican POS jumps a fence and runs like hell trying to get into America. A National Guardsmen see's this scenario unfold and tries to intervene. The stupid Bandeho shoots at the soldier and he returns fire killing the Mexican.

Liberals go crazy, lawsuits are filed, the guard is court marshal'd, and President Bush is blamed because he crashed Hurricane Katrina into New Orleans.

[KAOSkins]

I don't see securing our border as "law enforcement". I see it as national security.
If securing the border is to be done under law enforcement agencies, then hypothetically an invading army can sue us if we send our military to stop them.
This makes absolutely NO sense.
In it's essence our military is for defense, hence them being controlled by the department with the same name. How on earth that means we can't use our military to defend our border... if it wasn't happening i'd think it was a plot for a cartoon.

Any judge that hears this case in our courts should be removed from the bench. Basically, they 'll be allowing another country to sue for the right to break our laws.

Again,. this makes absolutely NO sense.

~Bang

You're ignoring that we are a country of laws. It's part of what makes us so much better than Mexico. We can't choose when and how to abide by them, unless we are the president apparently. And while we are supposed to honor existing laws, they can be changed. It's a good system, but occassionaly it causes problems. I much prefer it to the alternatives.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

Mexico has LAWS as well. They have this neat law that says something like "if you enter our country illegally, you will be arrested."

Wow, imagine that!

[KAOSkins]

I can see this scenario happening. Some Mexican POS jumps a fence and runs like hell trying to get into America. A National Guardsmen see's this scenario unfold and tries to intervene. The stupid Bandeho shoots at the soldier and he returns fire killing the Mexican.

Liberals go crazy, lawsuits are filed, the guard is court marshal'd, and President Bush is blamed because he crashed Hurricane Katrina into New Orleans.

:rolleyes: You're use of racially disparaging remarks basically turns your argument into an ignorant tirade. Besides, they don't come up here with guns. :doh:

[KAOSkins]

Mexico has LAWS as well. They have this neat law that says something like "if you enter our country illegally, you will be arrested."

Wow, imagine that!

Your point would be? We have the same law with a less severe punishment - deportation. I've had buddies spend time in Mexican jail, believe me, I don't want to go there. If I'm going to go to Mexico, I'm gonna follow the rules. My point is that we can change our rules, but till we do, we have to follow them.

[FlyinO]

You're ignoring that we are a country of laws.

Oh, the irony :doh:

[KAOSkins]

Oh, the irony :doh:

It didn't escape me. But if we let emotions impact our enforcement we start down a slippery slope. Kind of similar to the irony that our lack of enforcement of immigration laws is what lead to the problem in the first place. :2cents:

[Thirtyfive2seven]

:rolleyes: You're use of racially disparaging remarks basically turns your argument into an ignorant tirade. Besides, they don't come up here with guns. :doh:

Hey, I laughed. I'm all in favor of shooting anyone who tries to hop the fence.

[Cdowwe]

What a joke :doh: