Should cheating be illegal?

[Destino]

After having read a few threads that have sparked some passionate debate lately this question popped into my head. Should infidelity be illegal? Normally I’d make a poll but I think there is more to the question then yes or no. The obvious why or why not applies but also what the punishment should be and should the person not married (the other man/woman) face punishment as well.

I’d like to know what you interweb opinion peddlers think.

[Waldo da Magnificent]

There ain't that much prision space in the entire world . . .

[TheSteve]

There ain't that much prision space in the entire world . . .

Well, if you took out all the potheads and drug addicts that are only hurting themselves then yes there would be room for cheaters that are hurting other people.

[HOF44]

I believe it should be a civil crime, not a criminal one. You should be held liable with financial penalties and loss of child custody if infedelity is proven in court.

[Om]

No, thanks. Keep the gov't, and the courts, out of my bedroom.

[dwbiggs]

No way...marriage is silly anyway...and I guess that makes me silly. :doh:

Dan

[HokieJ]

No. There are enough laws on the books now that are not enforced.

[dwbiggs]

I believe it should be a civil crime


You gotta be kidding?

Dan

[SkinsOrlando]

I would have to say no. It should matter in divorce proceedings but thats it.

If it was illegal, the penalty should be: The person caught cheating is required to do Bill Parcells underwear laundry for 1 year.

[Who Del]

Well first you have to establish what is cheating. Internet IMs? A dirty look? A flirtacious comment? Too many gray areas.

[SkinInsite]

That's why you need a prenub.

[Larry]

"I did not have sex with that woman."

(What, 10 replies and I got that one in first?)

[Cassow]

No. There are enough laws on the books now that are not enforced.

Exactly. I think in Virginia you are technically only allowed to have sex in the missionary position. But I've found that breaking that law is rather easy, and satisfying. :D

[Zguy28]

Cheating is never OK! Just ask Brave. :(

[rincewind]

Depends... can i beat the **** out of her when she cheats? :laugh:

[HOF44]

You gotta be kidding?

Dan

Why, it used to be that way in divorce court. Should be again.

[PleaseBlitz]

I think there is already punishment enough if you get caught cheating. But people do it anyways. So i doubt a law would do anything.

[Destino]

IMO cheating should have serious consequences because it has potentially devastating results. It can cause all sorts of financial hardship and mental anguish to the person that was cheated on. I wouldn’t make it “criminal” but I would make it weigh heavily in divorce. I would go so far as to say that the cheater be given almost no share of collected assets – no 50/50 split at all. You maybe get your car (so you can get to work) your clothes… and that’s it. Bank accounts, house, and “stuff” all stay with the family that accumulated them, which you chose to leave.

[diesel22]

Well, if you took out all the potheads and drug addicts that are only hurting themselves then yes there would be room for cheaters that are hurting other people.


Wow.

Please explain yourself to the woman who is stabbed to death by a crackhead for the $40 in her purse simply so he can hit the pipe that day.

Oh - and also to the parents who lose their kids because somebody stoned out of his/her mind runs up on the curb and mows them over.....

Good Grief.

[rincewind]

Wow.

Please explain yourself to the woman who is stabbed to death by a crackhead for the $40 in her purse simply so he can hit the pipe that day.

Oh - and also to the parents who lose their kids because somebody stoned out of his/her mind runs up on the curb and mows them over.....

Good Grief.


I hate that argument - stabbing and robbing are illegal. So is hitting someone with your car. Some people are responsible enough to handle their drugs.

[Destino]

Attention hijackers - This thread is not about drugs. Thank you.

[rincewind]

Attention hijackers - This thread is not about drugs. Thank you.


Sorry, just needed to respond to that post. I will keep it on topic.

[diesel22]

I hate that argument - stabbing and robbing are illegal. So is hitting someone with your car. Some people are responsible enough to handle their drugs.


I'll concede that there are individuals who have a "soft" drug habit who sit at home and waste away -- affecting no one other than themselves and their immediate family.

Having said that, do you honestly believe that violent crime in this country isn't HEAVILY under the influence of the drug culture? I surely hope not. Go to your local penatentiary and talk to some of these guys. Ask them about the crimes that never would have taken place had drugs not been involved. To argue that drugs do not have an enormous impact on the crime rate is to announce your ignorance for all.



Edit in compliance with Non-Hikjacker regulations:

Society is far too accepting of infedelity. Although incarcerating those who are unfaithful is likely unrealistic, I would be pleased to see some form of deterrent.

[rincewind]

I don't understand why people equate illegal with jail time - i say if you can prove your spouse was unfaithful, and you are the least bit competent, you get the kids.


No kids? Don't know. Flogging?

[DCRunner]

I think we have our very own Taliban here.

Government has no business legislating this type of morality. How do you know who is really the guilty party? What if the husband has withheld sex and/or love from his wife for ages or vice versa? What if there are myriad reasons or just one reason that makes a separation or divorce unlikely or impossible? It's a dangerous exercise to try to assign guilt in such matters. You can never know what goes on within a marriage or between two people in the privacy of a relationship. We all know people who seem like they have or had a great relationship or marriage and it turns out it was all on the surface. People are great at hiding problems in a marriage because they are embarrassed by how they think it reflects on them and their self-worth. Even when they themselves have done nothing wrong. I honestly think men are the worst when it comes to keeping up a charade in their relationships to maintain their self-image and ego for the benefit of their peers or families. Geez, I know people, as I'm sure others do, who get married just cause "it's time" and families and society expect it and they need to show they are really "men." I learned a long time ago never to judge anyone else's relationship or marriage. Some people are great at making themselves look like the victim.

So to answer your question: No it should not be. It is, however, illegal in some places. Unless it was changed recently, it is a misdemeanor offense in the District of Columbia. Both parties, even if one is unmarried, can be guilty of adultery. I seem to remember that previously the unmarried party had a lesser penalty, but I just looked it up and both parties now face the same maximum penalty if convicted: up to a $500.00 fine and/or up to a maximum of 180 days in jail. Title 22 Section 201 (D.C. Code)

Edited to add that sexual fidelity or lack thereof has nothing to do with one's ability to properly and lovingly raise a child. I don't even think it tells me that much about the person who has commited adultery.

[Teller]

Infidelity already IS a crime in the military, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. To put it mildly though, it's not enforced very strictly.

As to the original question, I say no. Like Om said, the government is involved in enough areas of my life. They don't need to be in my bedroom too.

That being said, if I ever cheated on my wife, I know with absolute certainty that I wouldn't live to do it again. ;)

[Art]

No, thanks. Keep the gov't, and the courts, out of my bedroom.

Look at Rico Suave here. It's not YOUR bedroom we're worried about unless your wife is knee-deep in wondering what brown can do to her with all those overnight deliveries :).

Absolutely cheating should be illegal in the relationships where this activity is not expressly allowed -- i.e. swingers and the mafia :). You probably wouldn't criminalize it, but, the total abdication of all custody rights, the loss of all marital assets and the like would be a shocking, strong societal measure to make people leave marriages instead of hurting their husband/wife in a way that is very difficult to overcome and can lead to a substantial increase in violent crime. :).

[Art]

That being said, if I ever cheated on my wife, I know with absolute certainty that I wouldn't live to do it again. ;)

HOW AWFUL. What an evil, terrible, bully she must be. How can you stand it? Oh, you can stand it by not cheating. Gotcha :).

[Ax]

"I did not have sex with that woman."

(What, 10 replies and I got that one in first?)

And still you got it wrong.

It was "Sexual Relations" remember.


BTW - Yes, it should be illegal. But no jail time. You just leave the marriage with the clothes on your back, and nothing else. Let your lover pick up the tab.

[Johnny Punani2]

I believe it should be a civil crime, not a criminal one. You should be held liable with financial penalties and loss of child custody if infedelity is proven in court.

I agree.

[Johnny Punani2]

No, thanks. Keep the gov't, and the courts, out of my bedroom.

How can you Om when cheating is one of the main reasons why people end up in the legal system seeking a divorce in the first place?

[AJ_Skins]

Adultery was against the law in VA (as in many states) at least until last year. It may still be. The Supreme Court ruling striking down sodomy laws appears to have made laws against adultery vulnerable also.

Here's an article by a liberal law professor:

Virginia strikes down state fornication law (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/25/grossman.oldlaws/index.html)

[Johnny Punani2]

Infidelity already IS a crime in the military, under the Uniform Code of Military Justice. To put it mildly though, it's not enforced very strictly.

As to the original question, I say no. Like Om said, the government is involved in enough areas of my life. They don't need to be in my bedroom too.

That being said, if I ever cheated on my wife, I know with absolute certainty that I wouldn't live to do it again. ;)

You would be surprised how much it is enforced. When I was a supervisor in the USAF one of my underlings was cheating on her husband on a consistent basis. When he was gone she had guys over at her house, out on dates, etc. I felt really bad for her husband. He was a squid vet and a good guy. After finding out some of the things I did about his wife I couldn't even look him in the eye. I felt bad and I didn't even do anything!

Word got around to our Commander and he told her that if her actions continued he would give her an Article 15 which is very serious offense in the military. She stopped what she was doing as far as we knew but vol separated shorty after-wards.

[Om]

Look at Rico Suave here. It's not YOUR bedroom we're worried about unless your wife is knee-deep in wondering what brown can do to her with all those overnight deliveries :).

Absolutely cheating should be illegal in the relationships where this activity is not expressly allowed -- i.e. swingers and the mafia :). You probably wouldn't criminalize it, but, the total abdication of all custody rights, the loss of all marital assets and the like would be a shocking, strong societal measure to make people leave marriages instead of hurting their husband/wife in a way that is very difficult to overcome and can lead to a substantial increase in violent crime. :).

You're so full of crap. :)

But, seeing as how you're knee deep into another of your stir-up-debate campaigns already ... how about writing us draft law you think would define the kind of inner-relationship acts you would consider "illegal," as well as some sentencing guidelines.

Should be fascinating.

[Om]

How can you Om when cheating is one of the main reasons why people end up in the legal system seeking a divorce in the first place?

Non-sequitor, man. Yes, people cheat and that can sometimes lead to divorce court. So can financial disagreements. So can job related stresses. So can simply falling out of love or discovering you never were in the first place. We gonna create new laws about making that stuff illegal too?

[G-Prime]

No, it is my opinion that what someone does in private should remain private as long as it's not putting anyone elses life in physical danger. We allow the government any liberties into our home it will only set a very bad trend.

[J3553]

cheating should not be illegal.... neither should murdering the person who cheats on you.

[Art]

You're so full of crap. :)

But, seeing as how you're knee deep into another of your stir-up-debate campaigns already ... how about writing us draft law you think would define the kind of inner-relationship acts you would consider "illegal," as well as some sentencing guidelines.

Should be fascinating.

Om, buddy, if I really have to explain the birds and the bees to you and tell you what sex is, you probably need a 101 course before coming to the professor, don't you think? :).

I already outlined the penalties for such acts.

[Johnny Punani2]

Non-sequitor, man. Yes, people cheat that can sometimes lead to divorce court. So can financial/monetary disagreements. So can job related stresses. So can simply falling out of love or discovering you never were in the first place.

We gonna create new laws about making that stuff illegal too?

Of course not, but equating adultery with the other examples you listed are not the same and wouldn't be for most people. What about crimes of passion? You know what they specifically address. That is because adultery in itself is the most serious offense you can commit in a marriage. So much so that it has been used successfully in criminal trials for assault and murder.

[Art]

Non-sequitor, man. Yes, people cheat and that can sometimes lead to divorce court. So can financial disagreements. So can job related stresses. So can simply falling out of love or discovering you never were in the first place. We gonna create new laws about making that stuff illegal too?

Nope, because there are laws to handle all that. Called divorce court :). I don't think anyone has a problem with failing relationships ending. The problem is ongoing relationships where one party willfully violates the trust of the marriage and irrevocably harms the other person through this vile act.

If one party cheats, in divorce court they sacrifice all marital assets and custody, or at least suffer SOME penalty severe enough to make people end bad relationships instead of making them worse.

[rincewind]

If one party cheats, in divorce court they sacrifice all marital assets and custody, or at least suffer SOME penalty severe enough to make people end bad relationships instead of making them worse.



HEY, look at that we agree. :)




:applause:

[Om]

Draft the law, Professor.

Make sure you cover stuff like ... oh, say a spouse denying physical contact for five years because he's a total nutjob, and the wife finally giving in to frustration with her girlfriend one night since there are kids involved and she doesn't work and seeks just enough human comfort to keep from blowing her brains out one rainy night when the husband's out drinking.

You know, actual real world applications. The "grey" stuff you so dislike. :)

[Lady Brave]

Adultery and fornication are both illegal in North Carolina.

When I worked as a courtroom clerk, I hated the alienation of affection cases. Wife sues the girlfriend for taking her husband. Those things got seriously ugly.

[cjcdaman]

Adultery and fornication are both illegal in North Carolina.

When I worked as a courtroom clerk, I hated the alienation of affection cases. Wife sues the girlfriend for taking her husband. Those things got seriously ugly.

Maybe I should second guess my moving to Wilmington. :D

All I can say is that I will not cheat on my fiance/future wife. But an absolute hottie who will not take no for an answer might get my attention. :laugh: J/K

[Thiebear]

Cheating should be able to be done in Divorce proceedings...

If you have to pay child support you can sue to have them pay it for you.... i.e. actions have consequences...
If there is alimony its removed...

that kinda thing... OHH and a 9mm clause somewhere.. ;) i keed...

[Thiebear]

Draft the law, Professor.

Make sure you cover stuff like ... oh, say a spouse denying physical contact for five years because he's a total nutjob, and the wife finally giving in to frustration with her girlfriend one night since there are kids involved and she doesn't work and seeks just enough human comfort to keep from blowing her brains out one rainy night when the husband's out drinking.

You know, actual real world applications. The "grey" stuff you so dislike. :)


total nutjob = divorce and move on to another kinder gentler person.
IF the above happens and they go to court over it and she shows this? It should have some bearing on the case.
blowing brains out on a rainy night= divorce and a skosh of medical attention.

[Thiebear]

Adultery was against the law in VA (as in many states) at least until last year. It may still be. The Supreme Court ruling striking down sodomy laws appears to have made laws against adultery vulnerable also.

Here's an article by a liberal law professor:

Virginia strikes down state fornication law (http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/25/grossman.oldlaws/index.html)

Adultery is not admissible as a reason for divorce: I tried..
Then a lawyer in Williamsburg got hit for adultery and I believe the only one to go to court in many years......

[rincewind]

Cheating should be able to be done in Divorce proceedings...





Ummm.... huh?

[Destino]

I think we have our very own Taliban here.
This has nothing to do with morality or religious code. If you sign a business contract and can't deliver you don't get all of your assets back and leave the other guy completely screwed. You defaulted he gets to take your crap for your failure to come through. Yet in marriage someone completely trusts you and you screw them... the uncle sam say "hey no harm done" sell the house and split it 50/50.

That's crap IMO.

[Destino]

Ummm.... huh?
lol

right there in front of the judge? That's ballsy!

[bearrock]

Adultery is not admissible as a reason for divorce: I tried..


News to me. The following comes up when a cheated on spouse wants an immediate divorce or when a cheating spouse seeks spousal support.


§ 20-91. Grounds for divorce from bond of matrimony; contents of decree.

A. A divorce from the bond of matrimony may be decreed:

(1) For adultery; or for sodomy or buggery committed outside the marriage;


§ 20-107.1. Court may decree as to maintenance and support of spouses.

B. Any maintenance and support shall be subject to the provisions of § 20-109, and no permanent maintenance and support shall be awarded from a spouse if there exists in such spouse's favor a ground of divorce under the provisions of subdivision (1) of § 20-91. However, the court may make such an award notwithstanding the existence of such ground if the court determines from clear and convincing evidence, that a denial of support and maintenance would constitute a manifest injustice, based upon the respective degrees of fault during the marriage and the relative economic circumstances of the parties.

[DCRunner]

This has nothing to do with morality or religious code. If you sign a business contract and can't deliver you don't get all of your assets back and leave the other guy completely screwed. You defaulted he gets to take your crap for your failure to come through. Yet in marriage someone completely trusts you and you screw them... the uncle sam say "hey no harm done" sell the house and split it 50/50.

That's crap IMO.

That's not an appropriate analogy for a marriage. It's not supposed to be a business arrangement. That's why the courts increasingly only want to deal with the property aspects of marriage in divorce proceedings. They do not want to get involved in the other, more personal areas of a marriage. Smart people have learned through much experience that you really can't judge these personal matters. What if you only wanted sex occasionally and the other partner wanted it more - is that a "failure to come through." So does the other partner get to take all your crap? What if one partner stops loving you but wants to stay married for "business" reasons - is that a failure to deliver?

There's just no other way to deal with divorce and property division. Quite frankly, except in marriages where one party was unable to work, disabled or was discouraged from doing so by the other party, I really believe in equitable distribution - the larger contributor (and contributions other than financial can be considered) gets the larger distribution.

[rincewind]

lol

right there in front of the judge? That's ballsy!



Your Honor, excuse me while i whip this out.. :laugh:

[Destino]

That's not an appropriate analogy for a marriage. It's not supposed to be a business arrangement. That's why the courts increasingly only want to deal with the property aspects of marriage in divorce proceedings. They do not want to get involved in the other, more personal areas of a marriage. Smart people have learned through much experience that you really can't judge these personal matters. What if you only wanted sex occasionally and the other partner wanted it more - is that a "failure to come through." So does the other partner get to take all your crap? What if one partner stops loving you but wants to stay married for "business" reasons - is that a failure to deliver?
You aren't understanding me - if there is a "failure to deliver" then LEAVE. I hear excuses all the time, she did this or he did that. It's all well and good, she's evil or he's a jerk. I get it I believe it, but the bottom line is no law says you have to stay with anyone. You have the option to walk out at anytime. But when you decide to deal with a problem by just getting yours the shady way, you're in the wrong IMO. That's a chicken**** move. Lying to get some on the side is irresponsible and it's not entirely out of the question to end up giving your spouse an STD.

[cjcdaman]

http://www.moviesoundscentral.com/sounds/turkey1.wav

[Art]

Draft the law, Professor.

Make sure you cover stuff like ... oh, say a spouse denying physical contact for five years because he's a total nutjob, and the wife finally giving in to frustration with her girlfriend one night since there are kids involved and she doesn't work and seeks just enough human comfort to keep from blowing her brains out one rainy night when the husband's out drinking.

You know, actual real world applications. The "grey" stuff you so dislike. :)

It ain't hard. See. Birds fly around.....

You sure you need to know what sex is there chief?

Craft the penalty for adultery such that if you commit it you get nothing, meaning, if you're marriage is so awful you are led astray, END YOUR MARRIAGE FIRST. Simple. Easy. It's not that I dislike the grey stuff, Om. I just wish grey matter would be included when you talk about grey areas.

The real world application in your case is she's free to leave the relationship before taking part in adultery. No need to think any further. Get out of a relationship before you cheat. Always. Never stay in a relationship AND cheat. Never. Concepts so easy, I'm guessing even you'll catch on eventually :).

[Art]

That's not an appropriate analogy for a marriage. It's not supposed to be a business arrangement. That's why the courts increasingly only want to deal with the property aspects of marriage in divorce proceedings. They do not want to get involved in the other, more personal areas of a marriage. Smart people have learned through much experience that you really can't judge these personal matters. What if you only wanted sex occasionally and the other partner wanted it more - is that a "failure to come through." So does the other partner get to take all your crap? What if one partner stops loving you but wants to stay married for "business" reasons - is that a failure to deliver?

There's just no other way to deal with divorce and property division. Quite frankly, except in marriages where one party was unable to work, disabled or was discouraged from doing so by the other party, I really believe in equitable distribution - the larger contributor (and contributions other than financial can be considered) gets the larger distribution.

You marry with these strange words like love, honor, better, worse, death, part. They mean something. If you are unhappy, end the marriage. Don't maintain the marriage and cheat. See, in your example, there's your option. No one is hurt. Everyone gets treated fairly. A bad relationship ends without any major, life-impacting event.

Why wouldn't we design the system to encourage this?

[PokerPacker]

wow, i'm amazed to see so many people think that this should be a crime. its personal and nothing more. this is all part of the "let's not hurt people's feelings under penalty of law" movement. what next? should i be arrested if i decide to skip work? i thought the logical thing would be for my employer to fire me, not to be carted off to jail for "breach of contract". shame on all of you for trying to give the government this kind of power. there is so much room for governmental abuse of a law like this.

[skinfan13]

I hate that argument - stabbing and robbing are illegal. So is hitting someone with your car. Some people are responsible enough to handle their drugs. what like my friend who was so stonned in class the other day he almost slit his wrists? drugs are dangerous, trust me on this one: DO not abuse them at all, i've personaly known someone who died because of drugs, he was "smart" with them too.

anything that effs with your mind is dangerous, especially depresents

[skinfan13]

I think we have our very own Taliban here.

Government has no business legislating this type of morality. i was hoping to see someone pull this one out; what are laws? what are they? hmmm would it be legislated and enforced morality? nah couldnt be.

[Om]

It ain't hard. See. Birds fly around.....

You sure you need to know what sex is there chief?

Craft the penalty for adultery such that if you commit it you get nothing, meaning, if you're marriage is so awful you are led astray, END YOUR MARRIAGE FIRST. Simple. Easy. It's not that I dislike the grey stuff, Om. I just wish grey matter would be included when you talk about grey areas.

The real world application in your case is she's free to leave the relationship before taking part in adultery. No need to think any further. Get out of a relationship before you cheat. Always. Never stay in a relationship AND cheat. Never. Concepts so easy, I'm guessing even you'll catch on eventually :).

You gonna define "cheating" for us or not, Prof? You're totally taking the easy way out here. You're the one who wants to make "cheating" illegal. Don't you think you ought to define your terms at least a little? Most of us graduated from the "birds and bees" phase before we hit double digits. Are you really not prepared to take this little charade of yours into the teens at least?

Did the distraught wife commit adultery with her girlfriend or not in your world? Don't we need to know what if any body parts were involved? How "far" it went? I mean, did any clothes come off? If the comforter was simply massaging the comfortee's shoulders and her hands happened to slip a little too low one time and the comfortee did not immediately fight her off ... has there been adultery punishable by Artisian Law? What if they never actually went beneath the clothing at all, but merely petted a while? Or what if they just kissed?

Cheating, right? Of course, in a black and white world. Unfortunate and complicated in the real one. But punishable by law? Give us a break.

[jrockster21]

Adultery is not admissible as a reason for divorce: I tried..


You tried adultery? Or you tried to use your spouse's adultery to divorce her? If its the latter, you had the worst divorce lawyer ever, unless it was just completely unprovable (your word against hers). Otherwise, adultery is most certainly grounds for divorce.

[PokerPacker]

Omed!!!!!!

[Art]

wow, i'm amazed to see so many people think that this should be a crime. its personal and nothing more. this is all part of the "let's not hurt people's feelings under penalty of law" movement. what next? should i be arrested if i decide to skip work? i thought the logical thing would be for my employer to fire me, not to be carted off to jail for "breach of contract". shame on all of you for trying to give the government this kind of power. there is so much room for governmental abuse of a law like this.

If you've read THIS thread you haven't seen many people call for jail time at all. You have seen it mentioned infidelity should be a cause for an imbalance in favor of the faithful partner in a divorce proceeding. "No fault" laws ignore actions like this and too many others when relationships end.

Shame on you for being too stupid to actually read the ideas proposed.

[PokerPacker]

it should not be the sole factor in deciding who gets what in a divorce, and the government should NOT have the power to punish you for "cheating".

i understand a judge taking it into CONSIDERATION in a divorce court deciding who gets what, but it shouldn't be a written law that the person who "cheated," depending on your definition, loses EVERYTHING. that is absurd. there's always a gray area in something like that and should NOT be made into a law of ANY kind

[Art]

You gonna define "cheating" for us or not, Prof? You're totally taking the easy way out here. You're the one who wants to make "cheating" illegal. Don't you think you ought to define your terms at least a little? Most of us graduated from the "birds and bees" phase before we hit double digits. Are you really not prepared to take this little charade of yours into the teens at least?

Did the distraught wife commit adultery with her girlfriend or not in your world? Don't we need to know what if any body parts were involved? How "far" it went? I mean, did any clothes come off? If the comforter was simply massaging the comfortee's shoulders and her hands happened to slip a little too low one time and the comfortee did not immediately fight her off ... has there been adultery punishable by Artisian Law? What if they never actually went beneath the clothing at all, but merely petted a while? Or what if they just kissed?

Cheating, right? Of course, in a black and white world. Unfortunate and complicated in the real one. But punishable by law? Give us a break.

Om,

I've defined cheating nearly repeatedly in this thread making it somewhat discouraging for you to continue to twiddle away waiting for an answer you already have. Now, I would put up a picture for you, but I think that's against the rules. I've not taken the easy way out at all.

I've stated what cheating is, very expressly, even mocking you for pretending not to know. I've stated exactly what I think the punishment for it should. Conversely, you've been incapble of actually addressing the debate beyond a silly, "Stay out of my bedroom," comment, followed by repeated questions asking what sex is.

When you figure it out, go from there. Now, would I mind stripping it down to a more detailed punishment for each unfaithful act, down to obscene thoughts? I just might. But, since I've already told you where I'd put the line, you can go right on ahead and figure out what you'd like to know next. Or, you can spend 30 minutes saying, "Gosh, Art, why can't you tell me how you'd define cheating."

I have. I think thrice. Probably more.

I promise to actually move beyond the elementary school years when you're mature enough to discuss the information you clearly have and no longer need to ask. I made it simple for you Om. Sex is cheating. Rules against cheating. Simple. Easy. Even Om can move on now, right?

[Art]

it should not be the sole factor in deciding who gets what in a divorce, and the government should NOT have the power to punish you for "cheating".

i understand a judge taking it into CONSIDERATION in a divorce court deciding who gets what, but it shouldn't be a written law that the person who "cheated," depending on your definition, loses EVERYTHING. that is absurd. there's always a gray area in something like that and should NOT be made into a law of ANY kind

Why then should it be written law, as it is in many states, that adultery can not be considered in a divorce proceeding? No-fault. If the government can do that, the government can do something else, right. Like they used to?

[PokerPacker]

Why then should it be written law, as it is in many states, that adultery can not be considered in a divorce proceeding? No-fault. If the government can do that, the government can do something else, right. Like they used to?
i'm sorry, could you restate the question more clearly, i don't know what you're asking me.

[MaddogCT]

"I did not have sex with that woman."

(What, 10 replies and I got that one in first?)

Every man here would say the exact same thing....I mean really...not only are you sleeping around on Hillary(who wouldn't), but the woman you are sleeping with is not exactly a super model. If you have to get caught cheating, get caught with Heather Locklear. You're the President for crying out loud.
Get a hottie!!

:)

Oh.. PS
No. Infidelity should not be made a crime.

[bearrock]

Why then should it be written law, as it is in many states, that adultery can not be considered in a divorce proceeding? No-fault. If the government can do that, the government can do something else, right. Like they used to?

Which states have laws that adultery cannot be considered in a divorce proceeding?

[Art]

Which states have laws that adultery cannot be considered in a divorce proceeding?

Any no-fault state.

[dfitzo53]

cheating should not be illegal.... neither should murdering the person who cheats on you.
I can't imagine the level of emotional damage a cheating spouse must do, but even more difficult to fathom is the finality of ending a life. Wounds heal. Death does not. I can't agree with legalizing murder in any case.



You know, actual real world applications. The "grey" stuff you so dislike.
3,000 bonus points for use of the alternate spelling of "gray."


As far as Destino's question, I don't believe it can be made illegal without a complicated law which takes into account extenuating circumstances like those Om brings up, as well as people who choose to swing by mutual agreement. It should, however, absolutely positively be grounds for a divorce. The chances of successfully legislating something where no two cases are exactly alike are slim at best.

As a side note, I'm surprised to see people on here who I know are married call ending a marriage "easy."

[bearrock]

Any no-fault state.

Alright, I got curious, so I looked it up. In case anyone is interested (fat chance :) ), I'm posting the results below.

The following is the list of states in the union that allows only no fault divorce. All other states allow the plaintiff to proceed on either fault or some form of no fault grounds (I thought everyone worked this way, but apparently not).

These are the 14 states that do not allow any form of fault based divorce. The rest allow fault or no-fault divorce.

Irreconcilable Difference Only:
Indiana, Iowa, Michigan, Nebraska

Irreconcilable Difference or Consent:
Arizona, California, Colorado, Oregon, Washington, Wisconsin

Irreconcilable Difference or Separation:
Minnesota, Montana, West Virginia

Irreconcilable Difference, Separation, or Consent:
Hawaii

[DCRunner]

I think we have our very own Taliban here.

Government has no business legislating this type of morality....


i was hoping to see someone pull this one out; what are laws? what are they? hmmm would it be legislated and enforced morality? nah couldnt be.

The law does not deal with all kinds of morality. For instance, I think it is immoral to dump one's parents in a nursing home when it is not absolutely necessary. Does the law penalize that type of immorality? Of course not. It's immoral to be deliberately cruel to others. How about a law against that? It's immoral to stab a co-worker in the back (metaphorically speaking) to get ahead, but we don't criminalize that.

I say again, the government has no business legislating this TYPE of morality. I don't know anyone who thinks cheating on one's spouse is a generally good idea. That isn't the issue here. The question is should it be illegal.

[nonniey]

Marriage is a civil contract, therefore sanctions should exist for breaking that contract, as there are in any other type of contract. (Ie if a Skins player breaks a contract would most of you agree the Redskins have every right to go after the money they paid him in a signing bonus - ala Deion).

[Thiebear]

Marraige is a civil contract, therefore sanctions should exist for breaking that contract, as there are in any other type of contract. (Ie if a Skins player breaks a contract would most of you agree the Redskins have every right to go after the money they paid him in a signing bonus - ala Deion).

This is why there needs to be two kinds of marriage:
Civil / Judge marriage (Do whatever you want but suffer monetarily)
Religious marriage (Till Death do you part thing) taken to the cleaners, maybe even a good Crucifixion if your cheating.

[Zguy28]

No, it is my opinion that what someone does in private should remain private as long as it's not putting anyone elses life in physical danger. We allow the government any liberties into our home it will only set a very bad trend.So mental anguish doesn't count anymore?

[Zguy28]

Marriage is a civil contract, therefore sanctions should exist for breaking that contract, as there are in any other type of contract. (Ie if a Skins player breaks a contract would most of you agree the Redskins have every right to go after the money they paid him in a signing bonus - ala Deion).The no-fault divorce took care of that one.

EDIT: Sorry didn't see someone already posted about this.

[Om]

Om,

I've defined cheating nearly repeatedly in this thread making it somewhat discouraging for you to continue to twiddle away waiting for an answer you already have. Now, I would put up a picture for you, but I think that's against the rules. I've not taken the easy way out at all.

I've stated what cheating is, very expressly, even mocking you for pretending not to know. I've stated exactly what I think the punishment for it should. Conversely, you've been incapble of actually addressing the debate beyond a silly, "Stay out of my bedroom," comment, followed by repeated questions asking what sex is.

When you figure it out, go from there. Now, would I mind stripping it down to a more detailed punishment for each unfaithful act, down to obscene thoughts? I just might. But, since I've already told you where I'd put the line, you can go right on ahead and figure out what you'd like to know next. Or, you can spend 30 minutes saying, "Gosh, Art, why can't you tell me how you'd define cheating."

I have. I think thrice. Probably more.

I promise to actually move beyond the elementary school years when you're mature enough to discuss the information you clearly have and no longer need to ask. I made it simple for you Om. Sex is cheating. Rules against cheating. Simple. Easy. Even Om can move on now, right?

The level of bombast in your arguments is directly proportional to the degree to which you know you can't answer a question. :)

It's your class, Professor. We know this because you said so. Thus, as a bright-eyed, naive student with coffee in hand and mind open, aching to learn at the feet of the master, I've asked you, on more than one occasion, to draft a law you think applicable to "cheating" in the bedroom. I've even given you hints as to what direction the follow up questions would likely go to speed you on your way and make it easier for you to avoid the more obvious traps.

Sadly, the best you've come up with so far is various forms of "sex is cheating." I look around the room at my fellow classmates and cannot help but see the disappointment in their eyes. If this the best this class has to offer, they're thinking, perhaps we should switch to something useful, or at least interesting, like Deep Tissue Massage for Lovers.

I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in what actual real-world application to this notion you'd come up with, Teach. Are you going to actually educate us or not? There is learnin' to be done. If it ain't gonna happen here, let us know and we'll move on. :)

[Who Del]

Is it considered cheating if I post on a Redskins board while being a die hard Eagles fan?

[Art]

The level of bombast in your arguments is directly proportional to the degree to which you know you can't answer a question. :)

It's your class, Professor. We know this because you said so. Thus, as a bright-eyed, naive student with coffee in hand and mind open, aching to learn at the feet of the master, I've asked you, on more than one occasion, to draft a law you think applicable to "cheating" in the bedroom. I've even given you hints as to what direction the follow up questions would likely go to speed you on your way and make it easier for you to avoid the more obvious traps.

Sadly, the best you've come up with so far is various forms of "sex is cheating." I look around the room at my fellow classmates and cannot help but see the disappointment in their eyes. If this the best this class has to offer, they're thinking, perhaps we should switch to something useful, or at least interesting, like Deep Tissue Massage for Lovers.

I'm sure I'm not the only one interested in what actual real-world application to this notion you'd come up with, Teach. Are you going to actually educate us or not? There is learnin' to be done. If it ain't gonna happen here, let us know and we'll move on. :)

Om, confused student, the confusion is in you, no one else.

You've been tasked with a simple assignment. Should infidelity be illegal. You were confused, somehow, as to what infidelity means. Knowing it is too great a burden and project to teach you what it means, we distinctly drew you a big, red, bold, wonderful line at what it was. YOU, not anyone else, has introduced the variety of acts no one else has mentioned or discussed.

If you don't know what sex is, brother, there's no one here who can make it more clear. That's a big line. It's there to make it SIMPLE for you to address the concept. You've been granted the wonderful education that your worries are irrelevant. It doesn't matter if a cheating spouse cheats because she hates her relationship because her spouse is a horrible man because SHE can LEAVE the relationship without consequence or penalty in response.

We're discussing the protection of a loving couple who can not believe what happened to them in their marriage ultimately breaking it up. Those people HAVE NO RECOURSE or protection from these horrible acts of cheating. I know you are one of those guys who is paralyzed into inaction by all the sentences you can cram into your cranium, but, no one else really suffers from this.

End a bad relationship BEFORE you cheat. Once you cheat, you forfeit any rights you earned during the partnership. Do that, and divorce rates will sore, but, those who remain will actually be in stable, loving relationships where both sides have an actual reason OUTSIDE of themselves in this selfish society to stay true.

That is nothing but a good thing.

Now, if you think hand holding counts, you are the one who has a problem. You know what sex is. You know the information you need. I promise you this, we will move no further beyond this point until you at least wander into the realization that, indeed, you've gotten the answer you have and playing Vinny Barbarino, while I'm sure compelling to you, moves us no where.

You have the data set you need. Now, find out what's wrong with it.

[Thiebear]

To make this painfully obvious: (my opinion)
Sexual acts that involve any orifices being penetrated by any body part by either party...

I'm waiting for an appropriate reason for either party to commit adultery? This "real" world scenario.

Your husband beats you every odd day: Leave.... and do it before deaths at your door.
Your wife frigid and its been 5 years? You've been to councelling? NO = go YES= live with it or leave...
You both decide its o.k.- more power to yah...

[Om]

Meh.

No draft law coming, boys and girls.

What's it gonna be ... spitballs or walkout?

[Art]

Meh.

No draft law coming, boys and girls.

What's it gonna be ... spitballs or walkout?

Draft law already provided. Literacy is the first requirement for leadership, I should think :).

[Who Del]

Om vs. Art

Heavyweight match for the AGES. Who playes the role of Ali and who's Joe Frazier? I gotsa to go with Joe. Smokin' Joe. An all-time Philly great!

[DCsportsfan53]

Om vs. Art

Heavyweight match for the AGES. Who playes the role of Ali and who's Joe Frazier? I gotsa to go with Joe. Smokin' Joe. An all-time Philly great!


What's the line on this one and where do I place my bets?

[Art]

What's the line on this one and where do I place my bets?

Guys, the fight is over. Om's last post is a "No mas," to my overhand "Vinny Barbarino" punch. I mean, when you get someone with the Vinny Barbarino line, it's OVA :).

[bearrock]

If you award all the marital asset to the non-cheating spouse, wouldn't that discourage couples from trying to stay together after one of them cheats? I've seen couples work through infidelity and move on to a very strong and loving relationship. If the law was that non-cheating spouse gets everything, I don't know if they would have even tried.

Furthermore, should emotional cheating be illegal too? I think many of us here know the not-so-hypothetical I have in mind. In my view, one singular act of physical sex is less devastating than a prolonged emotional betrayal. Here, the line gets really murky. How far is too far in terms of emotional extramarital relationships?

[DCsportsfan53]

If you award all the marital asset to the non-cheating spouse, wouldn't that discourage couples from trying to stay together after one of them cheats? I've seen couples work through infidelity and move on to a very strong and loving relationship. If the law was that non-cheating spouse gets everything, I don't know if they would have even tried.

Furthermore, should emotional cheating be illegal too? I think many of us here know the not-so-hypothetical I have in mind. In my view, one singular act of physical sex is less devastating than a prolonged emotional betrayal. Here, the line gets really murky. How far is too far in terms of emotional extramarital relationships?

My parents went through both, my dad had a nine year long affair. Bought a house for the other woman while our water was getting cut off. Spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on her over the course of the affair, he was never around and when he was he was a ticking time bomb as the stress of his dual lives had worn him down. Now, after years of counseling and much soul searching, their marriage is better than it's ever been. Like Art, I have seen how devastating the affects of cheating can be on a family. But I have also seen how forgiveness and honesty can repair those wounds and the whole experience in the end can strengthen a marriage. Nothing like adversity to make you stronger.

[DCsportsfan53]

Oh, and just for Art

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." - Gandhi



:)

[HOF44]

Oh, and just for Art

"Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will." - Gandhi



:)

Let me guess Art's response! :D

Ghandi was a *****!!

[Om]

Draft law already provided. Literacy is the first requirement for leadership, I should think :).

Oh come on, brother Professor, you opened the door. Step through it already.

The draft law you say you’ve already crafted, I assume it’s from one of these snippets?


Absolutely cheating should be illegal in the relationships where this activity is not expressly allowed -- i.e. swingers and the mafia . You probably wouldn't criminalize it, but, the total abdication of all custody rights, the loss of all marital assets and the like would be a shocking, strong societal measure to make people leave marriages instead of hurting their husband/wife in a way that is very difficult to overcome and can lead to a substantial increase in violent crime. .

If one party cheats, in divorce court they sacrifice all marital assets and custody, or at least suffer SOME penalty severe enough to make people end bad relationships instead of making them worse.

Craft the penalty for adultery such that if you commit it you get nothing, meaning, if you're marriage is so awful you are led astray, END YOUR MARRIAGE FIRST. Simple. Easy. It's not that I dislike the grey stuff, Om. I just wish grey matter would be included when you talk about grey areas. The real world application in your case is she's free to leave the relationship before taking part in adultery. No need to think any further. Get out of a relationship before you cheat. Always. Never stay in a relationship AND cheat. Never.
If so, not only do they not look to my untrained eye like anything likely to pass from bill to law anytime soon, but they all still assume a remarkably thin definition of “sex” or “infidelity” or “cheating.” You keep falling back on, “I keep telling you, sex is cheating. Don’t you know what sex is?” Well, yeah I do. And like everyone reading along with brains set to “on,” I also know that the term “sex,” even outside a legal forum, is not narrowly defined to the kind of Intercourse for Dummies heterosexual parameters your “sex is cheating” mantra seems to indicate you believe it to be. :)

Your “bold red line” smells more like a big red herring, Prof. It asks us to believe YOU believe that such terms as sex, infidelity and cheating can be neatly packaged up in a little black (and white) box and crammed seamlessly into a law to be used as leverage in divorce proceedings.

Would you REALLY grant a judge the power to take testimony about what specific acts, and what actual marital body parts, might have been involved in a physical encounter with third party, in order to establish whether or not “sex” was had in context of the law? I have visions of Lewisnky testimony dancing in my head. That went well, don’t you think?

You’ve really got my curiosity peaked here, brother. You NEVER turn down a challenge. Why not deal with even a little gray, just this once, and 1) play along with the notion that “cheating” is not really a bold red line in the real world at all, but a fluid (sorry) and highly subjective one, and 2) then try to draft an actual law that would hold up under even the kind of simplistic (if mildly titillating) real-world application I already asked you to acknowledge a couple pages ago?

You haven’t forgotten the distressed wife receiving what morphs suddenly and unexpectedly from a comfort massage from a friend in need, to something a bit less innocent, before she fully realizes what’s happening and extricates herself from the situation, have you? I know the rest of us haven’t :)

Has she broken the draft law you won’t draft despite saying you have? Inquiring minds and all ...

Meanwhile, I’ll do my best to quell the uprising fomenting in the back row.

“We want a law!”

“We want a law!”

“We want a law ... !”

[DCsportsfan53]

All I know is, in my mind, the less laws the better. The more areas of life you allow to be goverened by law, the more you're allowing the government to decide for you what's right and wrong and what's acceptable. History has proven that govt is far too corrupt to be allowed to control the personal aspects of someone's life, and I'm all for REDUCING the areas in which the have that power not increasing them.

Oh yeah, and A HAYMAKER BY OM! Will Art get up and fight another round?