BBC NEWS: European Union (and other nations)Statement on violence in the Middle East

[heyholetsgogrant]

In quotes: Lebanon reaction

Israel has launched a broad military operation in Lebanon
Israel has imposed a military blockade on Lebanon and launched a series of missile strikes and cross-border raids in response to the capture of two soldiers by militant group Hezbollah.
Key international and regional powers have been responding to the escalating conflict.


US PRESIDENT GEORGE W BUSH
My attitude is this. There are a group of terrorists who want to stop the advance of peace. And those of us who are peace-loving must work together to help the agents of peace - Israel, President Abbas, and others - to achieve their objective.

Israel has the right to defend herself. [But] whatever Israel does should not weaken the government in Lebanon. We have been working very hard through the UN and partners to strengthen democracy in Lebanon.

Syria must be held to account. President Assad needs to show some leadership towards peace.


EUROPEAN UNION STATEMENT
The European Union is greatly concerned about the disproportionate use of force by Israel in Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezbollah on Israel. The presidency deplores the loss of civilian lives and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. The imposition of an air and sea blockade on Lebanon cannot be justified.


AMIR PERETZ, ISRAELI DEFENCE MINISTER
We will not allow Hezbollah to return to the positions it occupied along the border before the soldiers were abducted. Only the Lebanese army should operate in this area and deploy forces. If the Lebanese government does not deploy its armed forces as a sovereign government should, we will not allow Hezbollah forces to move again onto the other side of the border.

We will no longer put up with a terrorist organisation threatening residents in northern Israel with the support of a sovereign government.


SAMI KHIYAMI, SYRIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE UK
We have good contacts with them [Hezbollah] but after all, they have occupied territory, they have prisoners in the Israeli prisons and they have aspirations that we have to respect. So we contact them. We tell them to calm down, to come to terms. But the Israelis have on their side to stop the state terrorism on the one hand and to come to the negotiation table, whether direct or indirect, with these people in order to release the prisoners of both sides.


ABOUL GHEIT, EGYPTIAN FOREIGN MINISTER
Targeting civilians under the pretext of fighting terrorism is unacceptable and unjustified. Israeli practices violate international law. We condemn any military action that targets civilians. We consider it a terrorist act, regardless of who the civilians are or its source.



JORDANIAN GOVERNMENT STATEMENT
Jordan stands against whoever exposes the Palestinian people and their cause, Lebanon and its sovereignty to unexpected dangers. Israel's use of force against unarmed civilians and the outcome in terms of the human loss and destruction of civil institutions.


RUSSIAN GOVERNMENT STATEMENT
One cannot justify the continued destruction by Israel of the civilian infrastructure in Lebanon and in Palestinian territory, involving the disproportionate use of force in which the civilian population suffers.

We firmly reaffirm support for Lebanon's sovereignty and territorial integrity. All forms of terrorism are completely unacceptable. All sides involved in the current events should take rapid measures to stop the region sliding into open conflict.


ANGELA MERKEL, GERMAN CHANCELLOR
We call on the powers in the region to seek to bring about a de-escalation of the situation. We cannot confuse cause and effect. The starting point is the capture of the Israeli soldiers.

It is important that the government in Lebanon, which is on a peaceful path, should be strengthened, but it must be made clear that the capture [of the soldiers] cannot be tolerated. The attacks did not start from the Israeli side, but from Hezbollah's side.


PHILIPPE DOUSTE-BLAZY, FRENCH FOREIGN MINISTER
We obviously condemn this disproportionate act of war, which moreover has two consequences. The first is that it forces anyone who wants to enter Lebanon from now on to go either by sea or via Syria. The second consequence is that it risks plunging Lebanon back into the worst years of the war.

Today there is a risk of a very dangerous spiral of violence which could destabilise the entire region.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175886.stm

[cjcdaman]

Government of France response: We surrender! :D

[jbooma]

Government of France response: We surrender! :D

:laugh: :laugh:

I thought the Jordanian president early today said they do not like what is happening but you can not forget about what caused it

[heyholetsgogrant]

I highlighted the reponses of europe and bush....two completely different stance IMO...Bush is at impasse, he has absolutely no leverage...The German Chancellor is looking like a possible ally to Bush..

-Grant

[herrmag]

Ummm, someone bring up Chechans the next time Russia says ANYTHING! The response from the ME countries is what would be expected. However, Germany shocked me with their statements. I knew they still had balls....Unlike Russia.

[jbooma]

I highlighted the reponses of europe and bush....two completely different stance IMO...Bush is at impasse, he has absolutely no leverage...The German Chancellor is looking like a possible ally to Bush..

-Grant


True but he did say:

Israel has the right to defend herself. [But] whatever Israel does should not weaken the government in Lebanon. We have been working very hard through the UN and partners to strengthen democracy in Lebanon.

Syria must be held to account. President Assad needs to show some leadership towards peace.


He is for the actions to a point. Depending on how long this drags out he will be supporting them if they make Lebanon rubble.

[heyholetsgogrant]

True but he did say:

Israel has the right to defend herself. [But] whatever Israel does should not weaken the government in Lebanon. We have been working very hard through the UN and partners to strengthen democracy in Lebanon.

Syria must be held to account. President Assad needs to show some leadership towards peace.


He is for the actions to a point. Depending on how long this drags out he will be supporting them if they make Lebanon rubble.


I think the qustion is do the German People have the same opinion? Could this situation be like what happend in spain, where the gov back us and sends troops to Iraq and is voted out over the unpopulatrity?

-Grant

[herrmag]

I think the qustion is do the German People have the same opinion? Could this situation be like what happend in spain, where the gov back us and sends troops to Iraq and is voted out over the unpopulatrity?

-Grant

This will not resemble Iraq. Number one, if Syria is stupid enough to do anything, Israel will punish them severely. I'm not 100% convinced that Israel can take on the entire ME by itself, but I'm pretty sure they can cause unmistakable damage. And, by the way, to beat Israel, you'll have to kill just about every single one of them. They will never surrender. Ask anyone that has trained in the military with these guys. They are NO JOKE.

[heyholetsgogrant]

U.S. stands alone in defending Israel
Critics say U.S. has not paid enough attention to Israel-Lebanon relations

• U.S. alone in supporting Israel
July 13: On Thursday, U.S. diplomat David Welch arrived in Israel, but critics say too late — 17 days after the first Israeli soldier was captured. NBC's Andrea Mitchell reports.

WASHINGTON - In Germany on Thursday, President Bush strongly supported Israel's right to defend itself, blaming Syria for harboring terror groups active in both Lebanon and Gaza.

"Syria needs to be held to account,” Bush says. “Syria is housing the militant wing of Hamas. Hezbollah has got an active presence in Syria."

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice blamed Iran as well, but Thursday night cautioned Israel not to go too far.

"The point about restraint, I think, has been taken by our Israeli colleagues,” Rice says.

But all day, the U.S. was alone in defending Israel. At the U.N., the U.S. exercised the sole veto against a resolution condemning Israel's Gaza incursion.

The European Union called Israel's attacks on Lebanon “disproportionate."

In fact, diplomatic sources tell NBC that Israel has been looking for an excuse to clean out Hezbollah strongholds in Lebanon after weeks of rocket attacks into Israel.

What role has the U.S. played? Today, U.S. diplomat David Welch arrived in Israel, but critics say too late — 17 days after the first Israeli soldier was captured.

And Rice has not been to Israel or the Palestinian territories since last November.

"I think it’s really inexplicable,” says James Steinberg, dean of the LBJ School of Public Policy at the University of Texas. “There’s been some sense that if they get involved and fail, that somehow it will lessen American credibility. But I think the opposite is true. That American credibility has been damaged by our willingness to get involved.”

Thursday night, critics in both parties say the administration has been so focused on Iraq and Afghanistan it has failed to pay enough attention to the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians.

© 2006 MSNBC Interactive

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13848003/

[heyholetsgogrant]

This will not resemble Iraq. Number one, if Syria is stupid enough to do anything, Israel will punish them severely. I'm not 100% convinced that Israel can take on the entire ME by itself, but I'm pretty sure they can cause unmistakable damage. And, by the way, to beat Israel, you'll have to kill just about every single one of them. They will never surrender. Ask anyone that has trained in the military with these guys. They are NO JOKE.


I dont dissagree that they will fight to the death and fight for there country...I was really asking if the German People back her stance on the current crisis in the Middle East...and no Isreal cannot take on the entire middle east they will lose IMO, just way too many armies and the US would probably get invovled even though the country may not support another war..

-Grant

[herrmag]

I dont dissagree that they will fight to the death and fight for there country...I was really asking if the German People back her stance on the current crisis in the Middle East...and no Isreal cannot take on the entire middle east they will lose IMO, just way too many armies and the US would probably get invovled even though the country may not support another war..

-Grant


The mere fact that Germany did not place full blame on Israel is a step in the right direction. The fact that they said much blame lies on Lebanon/Hezbollah speaks volumes.

As for Israel not being able to defend itself against the rest of the ME....We're really talking about Iran, Syria, Lebanon (although I don't think Lebanon as a whole wants a war, in fact, I think we'd see the majority protest if it came to that), possibly Egypt (although they should've learned their lesson by now, and Jordan (as well should've learned their lesson). Israel will command the skies should war break out. Palestine would no longer exist within days. Couple that with our Intel on the rest of the region which, of course, we'd gladly give Israel, they can cause serious issues for everyone. I think Saudi would stay out of it.

[DCsportsfan53]

This will not resemble Iraq. Number one, if Syria is stupid enough to do anything, Israel will punish them severely. I'm not 100% convinced that Israel can take on the entire ME by itself, but I'm pretty sure they can cause unmistakable damage. And, by the way, to beat Israel, you'll have to kill just about every single one of them. They will never surrender. Ask anyone that has trained in the military with these guys. They are NO JOKE.

I agree, if it ever comes to it, they will nuke the whole ME before they give up Israel. Personally, it seems like Iran is pushing these buttons through Hezbollah purposely. In some sense, I almost think this may ending giving Bush and Israel what they want, an excuse to bomb the crap out of Iran's nuclear facilities if not more.

[skinfan13]

its funny how the EU can comfortably condemn isreal yet they arent being constantly atacked with words and rockets left and right from Islamic nuts. isreal should just bomb the EU headquarters and rain down leaflets saying, "so how do YOU guys like this sort of treatment for no reason, eh?" *all in jest of course*

[Destino]

I'm getting sick of hearing all this peace BS. I'm no warhawk but even I can see that Isreal needs to handle it's business. They were just in a major operation sparked by the kidnapping of one soldier and what does hezzboolaboola do? They cross the border and kidnap two! I would loved to know how that planning session went. Did they run out of ideas for pissing Israel off until news of the kidnapping appeared on their tvs? Did they all shout "That's IT!!!" upon learning this latest way of angering the jews?

Kidnapping your soldiers and launching 80 rockets into your country means war damnit.

[DCSKINZ80]

Lebanon does not want war. The country does not even an airforce or real navy for god's sakes. Its a small and extremely diverse country (half christian, half muslim) who just want to live and prosper. Unfortunately, Hezbollah is the brainchild of the Iranian Mullahs and they operate in Lebanon. Their orders come via Tehran and Damascus and most Lebanese severely condemn what they've done and the damage their recklessness has caused. At the same time, Israel never misses an opportunity to attack CIVILIAN infrastructure: ROADS, BRIDGES, AIRPORTS, POWER PLANTS, and now the National STADIUM which ironically was recently rebuilt after Israel destroyed it in 1982. Over 60 civilians have been killed and many more to come. Their actions are just as reckless and criminal as Hezbollah. They both deserve each other.

[DCSKINZ80]

I'm getting sick of hearing all this peace BS. I'm no warhawk but even I can see that Isreal needs to handle it's business. They were just in a major operation sparked by the kidnapping of one soldier and what does hezzboolaboola do? They cross the border and kidnap two! I would loved to know how that planning session went. Did they run out of ideas for pissing Israel off until news of the kidnapping appeared on their tvs? Did they all shout "That's IT!!!" upon learning this latest way of angering the jews?

Kidnapping your soldiers and launching 80 rockets into your country means war damnit.

If it's war goddamn it, as you say, then bomb the true perpetrators, Iran and Syria, and not the weak ass Lebanese government, which by the way, is the only Liberal democracy in the Middle east. Go ahead and target Hezbollah if they like but hitting stadiums and the airport and purely civilian targets is a bunch of BS.. no real military objective other than collective punishment.

[cjcdaman]

If it's war goddamn it, as you say, then bomb the true perpetrators, Iran and Syria, and not the weak ass Lebanese government, which by the way, is the only Liberal democracy in the Middle east. Go ahead and target Hezbollah if they like but hitting stadiums and the airport and purely civilian targets is a bunch of BS.. no real military objective other than collective punishment.

Maybe the stadium was uncalled for . . . but if the Lebanese government is "liberal"? Shiiiiiit, bomb the hell out of them. :silly: That was a joke.

[WizSkinsO's]

If it's war goddamn it, as you say, then bomb the true perpetrators, Iran and Syria, and not the weak ass Lebanese government, which by the way, is the only Liberal democracy in the Middle east. Go ahead and target Hezbollah if they like but hitting stadiums and the airport and purely civilian targets is a bunch of BS.. no real military objective other than collective punishment.
Right...the airport had 'no real military objective (except, of course, if you consider the fact that Lebanon was trying to fly the Israeli soldiers to Iran, which I'm sure Israel should have just sat back and allowed them to do, right?).

Purely civilian targets? Quit with the B.S. Israel drops freaking leaflets anywhere civilians may be put at risk and urges them to evacuate the area because they're not the real target.

Hezbollah is just like Israel, I assume, in that they provoke Israel into this by going into their land and kidnapping their soldiers and launching rockets into civillian towns for the sole purpose of causing civillian casualties.

[CurseReversed]

targeting civlians.. pfftt give me a break. Are these Euros really that dense. Of course there will be civilian casualaties. Do they not realize the difference between israel and hezbollah. One of the purposely targets civillians the other purposely tried to avoid it. Dispraportionate response is a pfffttt as well. Again are they really that dense. They keep trying to paint a pretty face on these terrorists as if they play fair. All they respect is an disproportionate response anything else is looked upon as weakness. Let us not forget these groups openly profess the destruction of israel as a whole and will not be satisfied untill they achieve it. No amount of freed prisoners or land given back to them will change that. yes it is unfortunate that many innocent lebanese are caught in the middle of this, but israel knows who the real badguys are and they are going to be the ones who get the real horns in the end.

When willl the Euros and others understand that these terrorist groups and outlaw regimes (not expressley lebanon) CANNOT be bargained with.

[skinfan13]

Lebanon does not want war. The country does not even an airforce or real navy for god's sakes. Its a small and extremely diverse country (half christian, half muslim) who just want to live and prosper. Unfortunately, Hezbollah is the brainchild of the Iranian Mullahs and they operate in Lebanon. Their orders come via Tehran and Damascus and most Lebanese severely condemn what they've done and the damage their recklessness has caused. At the same time, Israel never misses an opportunity to attack CIVILIAN infrastructure: ROADS, BRIDGES, AIRPORTS, POWER PLANTS, and now the National STADIUM which ironically was recently rebuilt after Israel destroyed it in 1982. Over 60 civilians have been killed and many more to come. Their actions are just as reckless and criminal as Hezbollah. They both deserve each other. actually the demographics for religion in lebanon as of 2000 was about 30-70 christian/muslim not 50-50, i know it doesnt really add to the topic but eh whatever.

[cjcdaman]

Let us not forget these groups openly profess the destruction of israel as a whole and will not be satisfied untill they achieve it. No amount of freed prisoners or land given back to them will change that.

For me, that is "End of Story". I totally agree. They do openly say that they want Israel destroyed/annihlated. Damn, I cannot even imagine living as an Israeli citizen.

[DCSKINZ80]

Right...the airport had 'no real military objective (except, of course, if you consider the fact that Lebanon was trying to fly the Israeli soldiers to Iran, which I'm sure Israel should have just sat back and allowed them to do, right?).


First of all, Lebanon was not trying to fly anyone out of anything. There's Lebanon and there's Hizballah and they are not synonymous. Secondly, Israel didn't launch this huge war just to save a couple kidnapped soldiers. This is not a movie my friend, things don't happen on this scale without much more planning and much bigger strategic objectives vis-a-vis Iran/Syria... Third of all, Hezbollah has enough hiding spots in the country where no one would be able to find the abducted soldiers.



Purely civilian targets? Quit with the B.S. Israel drops freaking leaflets anywhere civilians may be put at risk and urges them to evacuate the area because they're not the real target.


Leaflets do wonders for people who either have no place to go or can't go anywhere because all the bridges were bombed and the airport is closed.



Hezbollah is just like Israel, I assume, in that they provoke Israel into this by going into their land and kidnapping their soldiers and launching rockets into civillian towns for the sole purpose of causing civillian casualties.

Hezbollah is the initiator and I have no love for them. I wish they didn't exist and that Lebanon lived in peace with all its neighbors. But Israel always talks from a suppossed position of morality but then you see the destruction they cause, and the civilians that are killed and the disproportiante excess and you question what the hell they are trying to achieve. The repercussions of this continuing are much more severe than anyone else understands at this point.

Its easy to start a war but its hard to stop one.

[DCSKINZ80]

actually the demographics for religion in lebanon as of 2000 was about 30-70 christian/muslim not 50-50, i know it doesnt really add to the topic but eh whatever.

Those numbers are estimated since there has been no real census since 1932 (intentionally because of the nature of the power sharing structure in the Lebanese gov't). There's about 4.5 million Lebanese in the country, of which Christians make up close to 35-40 percent (historically they were much greater but many fled during WW1, WW2, and the more recent Lebanese Civil War). There are about 15-20 million people of Lebanese descent outside of the country of which christians make up about 70%.

here's an interesting list of americans who are of Lebanese descent. You'd be suprised who's on this.

http://www.freelebanon.org/articles/a235.htm

(some of the people on this list I haven't been able to confirm, but its pretty accurate based on what I've researched).

[skinfan13]

Those numbers are estimated since there has been no real census since 1932 (intentionally because of the nature of the power sharing structure in the Lebanese gov't). There's about 4.5 million Lebanese in the country, of which Christians make up close to 35-40 percent (historically they were much greater but many fled during WW1, WW2, and the more recent Lebanese Civil War). There are about 15-20 million people of Lebanese descent outside of the country of which christians make up about 70%.

here's an interesting list of americans who are of Lebanese descent. You'd be suprised who's on this.

http://www.freelebanon.org/articles/a235.htm

(some of the people on this list I haven't been able to confirm, but its pretty accurate based on what I've researched). lebanon is actually a prety good country as far as the mid east goes, and i remember learning somewhere that after WWII the three states of isreal, lebanon and palestine (or maybe syria) were actually created for each religion, so it makes sense to me that the lebanese in excile are predomanantly christian. (btw are you a muslim or a christian? just wondering)

[Destino]

If it's war goddamn it, as you say, then bomb the true perpetrators, Iran and Syria, and not the weak ass Lebanese government, which by the way, is the only Liberal democracy in the Middle east. Go ahead and target Hezbollah if they like but hitting stadiums and the airport and purely civilian targets is a bunch of BS.. no real military objective other than collective punishment.
I hear what you are saying. The problem is that at some point you can't make it easy to help terrorists. The terrorists like it or not used that nation as a base and now that nation has to pay a price. If it doesn't what would motivate them to change in any way?

[DButz65]

Government of France response: We surrender! :D



LOL, reminds me of the time when someone googled "french military victories", this is what came up...



http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/c/S/french_googleresults.jpg

[DCSKINZ80]

For me, that is "End of Story". I totally agree. They do openly say that they want Israel destroyed/annihlated. Damn, I cannot even imagine living as an Israeli citizen.

On the one hand, Israel has a right to act. If I was in its position I probably would to. On the other hand, they need to make sure they act against the right people. Most Lebanese don't want a war and aren't approving of Hezbollah and their weapons. So this is not merely collateral damage, these are human beings and they don't deserve this **** since Iran and Syria are the one's responsible.

[cjcdaman]

LOL, reminds me of the time when someone googled "french military victories", this is what came up...



http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/c/S/french_googleresults.jpg


:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: That will never get old. I literalyy had tears running down my face the first time I saw that.

[MrSilverMaC]

The international community should step aside and let Israel do what they feel they need to do.


If they are so concerned then they need to do something to help the situation. If europe wasn't so anti-semetic, the nation of Israel probably wouldn't even exist.

[MrSilverMaC]

BTW, the prime minister of Canada came out in strong support of Israel, for whatever that is worth.

[DCSKINZ80]

The international community should step aside and let Israel do what they feel they need to do.


If they are so concerned then they need to do something to help the situation. If europe wasn't so anti-semetic, the nation of Israel probably wouldn't even exist.

Good thing you're not the international community. Last time Israel invaded lebanon, 20,000 civilians were killed, massacres on such scales that if you had ever witnessed, they would change your perspective for the rest of your life. You're better off commenting on football than human lives.

[MrSilverMaC]

Good thing you're not the international community. Last time Israel invaded lebanon, 20,000 civilians were killed, massacres on such scales that if you had ever witnessed, they would change your perspective for the rest of your life. You're better off commenting on football than human lives.



Really? And I suppose you were in the outpost attacked by hizbolla and managed to survive while 8 of your fellow soldiers died and 2 were kidnapped. Or maybe you're related to one of the missing soldiers, and thus have the right to so easily write off their loss??? Or maybe you're a lucky survivor of a suicide bomber and happened to see some little girl killed right next to you who had her insides liquified by the force of the blast??


I would hope so. I would hope you've lived through these things, and seen them up close and first hand, for you to sit there and say what is and isn't justifiable in defense of your country and loved ones. Cause thats the only way you could reasonably talk with the authority you seem to think you have.



Good thing you're in your element here making stupid insults to people who don't neccessarily agree with your view of the world. :applause:




And BTW, I am part of the international community, as are you and the rest of the posters here. Good thing huh? But I am curious, what did lebanon do that Israel invaded and killed 20,000? I don't suppose it had anything to do with the attempted destruction of Israel, and the death of it's inhabitants did it?

[Johnny Punani2]

EUROPEAN UNION STATEMENT
The European Union is greatly concerned about the disproportionate use of force by Israel in Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezbollah on Israel. The presidency deplores the loss of civilian lives and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. The imposition of an air and sea blockade on Lebanon cannot be justified.

I wana puke...

[DCSKINZ80]

Really? And I suppose you were in the outpost attacked by hizbolla and managed to survive while 8 of your fellow soldiers died and 2 were kidnapped. Or maybe you're related to one of the missing soldiers, and thus have the right to so easily write off their loss??? Or maybe you're a lucky survivor of a suicide bomber and happened to see some little girl killed right next to you who had her insides liquified by the force of the blast??


I would hope so. I would hope you've lived through these things, and seen them up close and first hand, for you to sit there and say what is and isn't justifiable in defense of your country and loved ones. Cause thats the only way you could reasonably talk with the authority you seem to think you have.



Good thing you're in your element here making stupid insults to people who don't neccessarily agree with your view of the world. :applause:




And BTW, I am part of the international community, as are you and the rest of the posters here. Good thing huh? But I am curious, what did lebanon do that Israel invaded and killed 20,000? I don't suppose it had anything to do with the attempted destruction of Israel, and the death of it's inhabitants did it?

What drives me crazy is how fascist some people's speech can become. "Give Israel a free hand". "Let them finish the job". I swear to you that every single one of you who feel this way really would change your mind if you were in Lebanon and you saw the death, suffering, blood, and destruction that comes as a result of this mindset. As a human being, I don't wish that carnage on any civilian life.

By me calling you out for saying that doesn't mean I accept Hezbollah either. They could go to hell for all I care. But Lebanon will not go to hell with them. The country has 6000 years of history and it's name is mentioned in the Bible more than any other land. Lebanon never invaded anybody nor tried to win any land by force. The country has been used and abused by the powers that be-Iran, Syria, US, Israel so they can wage their wars and mini-wars. Now, this fledgling democracy, basically the example of everything the US preaches for the new middle east, is being systematically destroyed and not for purely military objectives but as a collective punishment against a helpless people. Instead of helping the moderates, we destroy them and then wonder why radicals take their place.

[DCSKINZ80]

EUROPEAN UNION STATEMENT
The European Union is greatly concerned about the disproportionate use of force by Israel in Lebanon in response to attacks by Hezbollah on Israel. The presidency deplores the loss of civilian lives and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. The imposition of an air and sea blockade on Lebanon cannot be justified.

I wana puke...

Why because the EU is nuanced in its understanding of Lebanon? The US is too by the way, listen to Bush and Rice they've both mentioned that Israel should limit its reaction. The Lebanese gov't is a moderate and pro-West/US democracy. Destroying it will play right into Iran and Syria's hands.

[Ax]

It might help to hear about clashes going on between hezbull**** and the Lebanese Army. For a country trying to rid itself of hezbulla, ELECTING some of their members into the government, wasn't very convincing.

You get what you pay for.

Let's hope Iran screws up and stretches their neck out over the chopping block.

[Burgold]

Agreeing with Ax and others, Hezbolla is a part of the Lebanonese government and strongly influences it, even though they have minority representation. If the vast majority of Leboneze truly do not support Hezbolla or terrorism and murder in Isreal than they need to stop being a silent majority. Otherwise they are complicit.

I truly understand your empathy for friends and family who are endangered right now in Lebanon. It's the same empathy I have for friends and family who live in Isreal who for at least the past ten years openly wondered if they get on a bus if some terrorist will blow himself and them up or if a random attack will occur in an elementary school, grocery store or any of the other purely military targets that the Hezbolla and other terrorist groups typically target.

[Burgold]

How many times can you turn the other cheek. They have tried that too, it incites greater violence and more terrorism. Terrorists, unfortunately, are civilian and hide amongst civilians. They bank on the fact that others' consciences won't let them counter in an area where children and innocents will be hurt. It's what makes war against terrorists even more brutal and heartwrenching.

[gbear]

I keep getting the image of a gradeschool situation. It's like the skinny kid (Lebanon) who wants to be a big shot so he keeps shooting spitballs at the big kid (Israel) in the class. Now the teacher may tell the skinny kid to stop and put away the straw and wads of paper (UN resolution to disarm), but when the skinny kid keeps firing spitballs (rockets and abductions) is anyone really suprised when the big kid in the class eventually gets fed up and decks the skinny kid?

Now we can all say you shouldn't do this. We can even talk about how slugging them is so much worse than firing spitballs. But seriously, how many times do they have to be told not to do it, and how much is the teachers fault for never taking away the straw? Personally, there are only so many rocket attacks Israel should take before fighting back. The abductions were just one spitball too many.

On an odd note, where did the disproportionate response logic come from? Is Israel supposed to only use terrorist tactics because that is all Hez use? Should we have only used outdated tanks in Afganistan and Iraq because that was all our opponents had? In a fight with a weakling, does one only hit as hard as the weakling who punched you? This logic kind of baffles me. In this case the Hez seems to be the Lebannon army in the south, and with representation in the government, it's not hard to see why an attack by an unnofficial army of a country would be seen as an act of war by the country not just a fringe element. If you go to war and it looks like it way be a long one it would seem logical to make it dificult for an enemy to reinforce (take out power and transportation). Ah well, war still sucks for all involved. As people get better at it, it just seems to suck more.

[Chief skin]

The official statement from the Israelis to the EU should be FU

[Funkyalligator]

As for the deaths of civilians during the invasion of Lebanon in the 80
s...most of those deaths weren't caused by Israel but by Israeli backed Lebanese Militias please get your facts straight before going after Israel...and you can say they were Israeli backed militias....well...guess what..it was Lebanese killing Lebanese....

[Funkyalligator]

http://www.stratfor.com

Stratfor: Alerts - July 13, 2006

Middle East Crisis: Backgrounder

Israel lives with three realities: geographic, demographic and
cultural. Geographically, it is at a permanent disadvantage,
lacking strategic depth. It does enjoy the advantage of interior
lines -- the ability to move forces rapidly from one front to
another. Demographically, it is on the whole outnumbered, although
it can achieve local superiority in numbers by choosing the time
and place of war. Its greatest advantage is cultural. It has a far
greater mastery of the technology and culture of war than its
neighbors.

Two of the realities cannot be changed. Nothing can be done about
geography or demography. Culture can be changed. It is not
inherently the case that Israel will have a technological or
operational advantage over its neighbors. The great inherent fear
of Israel is that the Arabs will equal or surpass Israeli prowess
culturally and therefore militarily. If that were to happen, then
all three realities would turn against Israel and Israel might well
be at risk.

That is why the capture of Israeli troops, first one in the south,
then two in the north, has galvanized Israel. The kidnappings
represent a level of Arab tactical prowess that previously was the
Israeli domain. They also represent a level of tactical slackness
on the Israeli side that was previously the Arab domain. These
events hardly represent a fundamental shift in the balance of
power. Nevertheless, for a country that depends on its cultural
superiority, any tremor in this variable reverberates dramatically.
Hamas and Hezbollah have struck the core Israeli nerve. Israel
cannot ignore it.

Embedded in Israel's demographic problem is this: Israel has
national security requirements that outstrip its manpower base. It
can field a sufficient army, but its industrial base cannot supply
all of the weapons needed to fight high-intensity conflicts. This
means it is always dependent on an outside source for its
industrial base and must align its policies with that source. At
first this was the Soviets, then France and finally the United
States. Israel broke with the Soviets and France when their
political demands became too intense. It was after 1967 that it
entered into a patron-client relationship with the United States.
This relationship is its strength and its weakness. It gives the
Israelis the systems they need for national security, but since
U.S. and Israeli interests diverge, the relationship constrains
Israel's range of action.

During the Cold War, the United States relied on Israel for a
critical geopolitical function. The fundamental U.S. interest was
Turkey, which controlled the Bosporus and kept the Soviet fleet
under control in the Mediterranean. The emergence of Soviet
influence in Syria and Iraq -- which was not driven by U.S. support
for Israel since the United States did not provide all that much
support compared to France -- threatened Turkey with attack from
two directions, north and south. Turkey could not survive this.
Israel drew Syrian attention away from Turkey by threatening
Damascus and drawing forces and Soviet equipment away from the
Turkish frontier. Israel helped secure Turkey and turned a Soviet
investment into a dry hole.

Once Egypt signed a treaty with Israel and Sinai became a buffer
zone, Israel became safe from a full peripheral war -- everyone
attacking at the same time. Jordan was not going to launch an
attack and Syria by itself could not strike. The danger to Israel
became Palestinian operations inside of Israel and the occupied
territories and the threat posed from Lebanon by the
Syrian-sponsored group Hezbollah.

In 1982, Israel responded to this threat by invading Lebanon. It
moved as far north as Beirut and the mountains east and northeast
of it. Israel did not invade Beirut proper, since Israeli forces do
not like urban warfare as it imposes too high a rate of attrition.
But what the Israelis found was low-rate attrition. Throughout
their occupation of Lebanon, they were constantly experiencing
guerrilla attacks, particularly from Hezbollah.

Hezbollah has two patrons: Syria and Iran . The Syrians have used
Hezbollah to pursue their political and business interests in
Lebanon. Iran has used Hezbollah for business and ideological
reasons. Business interests were the overlapping element. In the
interest of business, it became important to Hezbollah, Syria and
Iran that an accommodation be reached with Israel. Israel wanted to
withdraw from Lebanon in order to end the constant low-level combat
and losses.

Israel withdrew in 1988, having reached quiet understandings with
Syria that Damascus would take responsibility for Hezbollah, in
return for which Israel would not object to Syrian domination of
Lebanon. Iran, deep in its war with Iraq, was not in a position to
object if it had wanted to. Israel returned to its borders in the
north, maintaining a security presence in the south of Lebanon that
lasted for several years.

As Lebanon blossomed and Syria's hold on it loosened, Iran also
began to increase its regional influence. Its hold on some elements
of Hezbollah strengthened, and in recent months, Hezbollah --
aligning itself with Iranian Shiite ideology -- has become more
aggressive. Iranian weapons were provided to Hezbollah, and
tensions grew along the frontier. This culminated in the capture of
two soldiers in the north and the current crisis.

It is difficult to overestimate the impact of the soldier
kidnappings on the Israeli psyche. First, while the Israeli
military is extremely highly trained, Israel is also a country with
mass conscription. Having a soldier kidnapped by Arabs hits every
family in the country. The older generation is shocked and outraged
that members of the younger generation have been captured and
worried that they allowed themselves to be captured; therefore, the
younger generation needs to prove it too can defeat the Arabs. This
is not a primary driver, but it is a dimension.

The more fundamental issue is this: Israel withdrew from Lebanon in
order to escape low-intensity conflict. If Hezbollah is now going
to impose low-intensity conflict on Israel's border, the rationale
for withdrawal disappears. It is better for Israel to fight deep in
Lebanon than inside Israel. If the rockets are going to fall in
Israel proper, then moving into a forward posture has no cost to
Israel.

From an international standpoint, the Israelis expect to be
condemned. These international condemnations, however, are now
having the opposite effect of what is intended. The Israeli view is
that they will be condemned regardless of what they do. The
differential between the condemnation of reprisal attacks and
condemnation of a full invasion is not enough to deter more extreme
action. If Israel is going to be attacked anyway, it might as well
achieve its goals.

Moreover, an invasion of Hezbollah-held territory aligns Israel
with the United States. U.S. intelligence has been extremely
concerned about the growing activity of Hezbollah, and U.S.
relations with Iran are not good. Lebanon is the center of gravity
of Hezbollah, and the destruction of Hezbollah capabilities in
Lebanon, particularly the command structure, would cripple
Hezbollah operations globally in the near future. The United States
would very much like to see that happen, but cannot do it itself.
Moreover, an Israeli action would enrage the Islamic world, but it
would also drive home the limits of Iranian power. Once again, Iran
would have dropped Lebanon in the grease, and not been hurt itself.
The lesson of Hezbollah would not be lost on the Iraqi Shia -- or
so the Bush administration would hope.

Therefore, this is one Israeli action that benefits the United
States, and thus helps the immediate situation as well as long-term
geopolitical alignments. It realigns the United States and Israel.
This also argues that any invasion must be devastating to
Hezbollah. It must go deep. It must occupy temporarily. It must
shatter Hezbollah.

At this point, the Israelis appear to be unrolling a war plan in
this direction. They have blockaded the Lebanese coast. Israeli
aircraft are attacking what air power there is in Lebanon, and have
attacked Hezbollah and other key command-and-control
infrastructure. It would follow that the Israelis will now
concentrate on destroying Hezbollah -- and Lebanese --
communications capabilities and attacking munitions dumps, vehicle
sites, rocket-storage areas and so forth.

Most important, Israel is calling up its reserves. This is never a
symbolic gesture in Israel. All Israelis below middle age are in
the reserves and mobilization is costly in every sense of the word.
If the Israelis were planning a routine reprisal, they would not be
mobilizing. But they are, which means they are planning to do
substantially more than retributive airstrikes. The question is
what their plan is.

Given the blockade and what appears to be the shape of the
airstrikes, it seems to us at the moment the Israelis are planning
to go fairly deep into Lebanon. The logical first step is a move to
the Litani River in southern Lebanon. But given the missile attacks
on Haifa, they will go farther, not only to attack launcher sites,
but to get rid of weapons caches. This means a move deep into the
Bekaa Valley, the seat of Hezbollah power and the location of
plants and facilities. Such a penetration would leave Israeli
forces' left flank open, so a move into Bekaa would likely be
accompanied by attacks to the west. It would bring the Israelis
close to Beirut again.

This leaves Israel's right flank exposed, and that exposure is to
Syria. The Israeli doctrine is that leaving Syrian airpower intact
while operating in Lebanon is dangerous. Therefore, Israel must at
least be considering using its air force to attack Syrian
facilities, unless it gets ironclad assurances the Syrians will not
intervene in any way. Conversations are going on between Egypt and
Syria, and we suspect this is the subject. But Israel would not
necessarily object to the opportunity of eliminating Syrian air
power as part of its operation, or if Syria chooses, going even
further.

At the same time, Israel does not intend to get bogged down in
Lebanon again. It will want to go in, wreak havoc, withdraw. That
means it will go deeper and faster, and be more devastating, than
if it were planning a long-term occupation. It will go in to
liquidate Hezbollah and then leave. True, this is no final
solution, but for the Israelis, there are no final solutions.

Israeli forces are already in Lebanon. Its special forces are
inside identifying targets for airstrikes. We expect numerous air
attacks over the next 48 hours, as well as reports of firefights in
southern Lebanon. We also expect more rocket attacks on Israel.

It will take several days to mount a full invasion of Lebanon. We
would not expect major operations before the weekend at the
earliest. If the rocket attacks are taking place, however, Israel
might send several brigades to the Litani River almost immediately
in order to move the rockets out of range of Haifa. Therefore, we
would expect a rapid operation in the next 24-48 hours followed by
a larger force later.

At this point, the only thing that can prevent this would be a
major intervention by Syria with real guarantees that it would
restrain Hezbollah and indications such operations are under way.
Syria is the key to a peaceful resolution. Syria must calculate the
relative risks, and we expect them to be unwilling to act
decisively.

Therefore:

1. Israel cannot tolerate an insurgency on its northern frontier;
if there is one, it wants it farther north.

2. It cannot tolerate attacks on Haifa.

3. It cannot endure a crisis of confidence in its military

4. Hezbollah cannot back off of its engagement with Israel.

5. Syria can stop this, but the cost to it stopping it is higher
than the cost of letting it go on.

It would appear Israel will invade Lebanon. The global response
will be noisy. There will be no substantial international action
against Israel. Beirut's tourism and transportation industry, as
well as its financial sectors, are very much at risk.

[DCSKINZ80]

As for the deaths of civilians during the invasion of Lebanon in the 80
s...most of those deaths weren't caused by Israel but by Israeli backed Lebanese Militias please get your facts straight before going after Israel...and you can say they were Israeli backed militias....well...guess what..it was Lebanese killing Lebanese....

haha.. ok man, YOU need to check your facts. I've read about 100 books on the subject. Read "From Beirut to Jersusalem" where Thomas Friedman, a Jew, says that Beirut was bombed "indiscriminately" from land, air and sea on the level of Dresdin in WW2 Germany. The NY Times made him delete the word "indiscriminately" from his article. Over 20,000 people were killed in that invasion..almost all civilians.

[Funkyalligator]

I also have read from Beirut to Jerusalem....and it does talk about the various militias....and I've also studied Middle Eastern Terrorism...Israel...and the whole middle east...so right back at you...you're wrong....

[herrmag]

haha.. ok man, YOU need to check your facts. I've read about 100 books on the subject. Read "From Beirut to Jersusalem" where Thomas Friedman, a Jew, says that Beirut was bombed "indiscriminately" from land, air and sea on the level of Dresdin in WW2 Germany. The NY Times made him delete the word "indiscriminately" from his article. Over 20,000 people were killed in that invasion..almost all civilians.


Well, according to latest reports, Israel had another round of bombings today. They struck the airport again, and destroyed bridges and roads that lead to Syria. Three people were killed, although they didn't mention whether they were civilian or not, but did make mention that Hezbollah guerillas were fighting back. Hardly sounds like indiscriminate bombing.

[iheartskins]

From the WSJ's editorial page:

http://online.wsj.com/article_print/SB115283803732306452.html

States of Terror
July 14, 2006; Page A12

Israel's military invasion and naval blockade of Lebanon is being denounced in European capitals and at the United Nations as a "disproportionate" response to the kidnapping this week of two of its soldiers by Hezbollah. Israel's decision late last month to invade Gaza in retaliation for the kidnapping of another soldier by Hamas was also condemned as lacking in proportion. So here's a question for our global solons: Since hostage-taking is universally regarded as an act of war, what "proportionate" action do they propose for Israel?

In the case of Hamas, perhaps Israel could rain indiscriminate artillery fire on Gaza City, surely a proportionate response to the 800 rockets Hamas has fired at Israeli towns in the last year alone. In the case of Hezbollah, it might mean carpet bombing a section of south Beirut, another equally proportionate response to Hezbollah's attacks on civilian Jewish and Israeli targets in Buenos Aires in the early 1990s.

We aren't being serious, but neither is a feckless international community that refuses to proportionately denounce the outrages to which Israel is being subjected. That goes also for Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who says "all sides must act with restraint." But Israel's current problems result in part from an excess of restraint in responding to previous Hamas and Hezbollah provocations.

Now Israel is confronted with a war on two fronts with proxy terrorists armed and financed by Syria and Iran. Yesterday, medium-range Hezbollah rockets hit civilian targets across northern Israel. Any of those rockets might easily hit the port city of Haifa's oil refineries and chemical plants, causing horrific damage that would give Israel cause, and perhaps the self-preservation necessity, to strike Damascus and Tehran.

So far, Israel is limiting its military activities to Lebanon alone, out of the same abundance of restraint that has governed its behavior throughout the crisis. The democratic Lebanese government of Fouad Siniora bears its share of the blame, since it has failed to police its side of the border with Israel and failed to disarm Hezbollah, as required by Security Council Resolution 1559 and the 1989 Taif Accords that ended the Lebanese civil war. Senior Israeli military sources also claim that Lebanon tolerates the presence of hundreds of Iranian military personnel in Lebanon, again in violation of U.N. resolutions.

But Mr. Siniora's failings owe to weakness, not malfeasance, particularly in the face of Syria's continued meddling in Lebanese affairs following the departure of its army last year. A larger problem has been the failure of the Bush Administration to press Damascus harder when it had the opportunity to do so in the wake of last year's Cedar Revolution. The U.N. investigation into the murder of Lebanese Prime Minister Rafik Hariri, in which all evidence points to the involvement of senior associates and relatives of Syrian dictator Bashar Assad, seems to have disappeared in a black hole. Nor has the U.S. exacted any price for Syria's ongoing support for the insurgents in Iraq.

Critics of the Bush Administration will surely find a way to blame it for the current crisis, on the theory that this is what happens when you push for change in the Middle East. But the real problem is the growing perception among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq, and so suddenly deferential to the wishes of the "international community," that it has lost its appetite for serious reform. This has created openings for the kind of terror assaults on American allies we are now witnessing.

Israel can and will handle the immediate military threats on its two borders. But ultimately there will be no resolution in Lebanon and Gaza until the regimes in Syria and Iran believe they will pay a price for the wars they are waging through their proxies. The referral this week of Iran's nuclear file to the U.N. Security Council is a start, although we have little confidence it will lead anywhere. The White House has cited Syria and Iran as the culprits behind this week's events, but more forceful words and action are called for. The Middle East stands on the cusp of its worst crisis in a generation, and this is no time for formulaic statements calling for "restraint from both sides."

[DCSKINZ80]

The Israeli-Lebanese border isn't some daily flashpoint like it used to be in the 80's. There's been a handful of incidents since Israel withdrew, the most recent being hezbollah's kidnapping of SOLDIERS.

Meanwhile Israel responds against all of Lebanon when it very well knows that the gov't isn't reponsible. As they have admitted, it is a form of COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

Article 33 of the GENEVA CONVENTION SAYS. "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

This is my argument. Lebanon is the ONLY free and liberal democracy in the Middle East. It alone is being subjected to these raids when the orders are coming from Syria and Iran. The US knows this, Israel knows this.

Its a bunch of BS and its not going to get rid of hezbollah. When was the last time a guerilla force was defeated? They are trained in guerilla warfare and have over 20 years of experience. Thats why Lebanon has been treading carefully with how to disarm this group. Its a catch 22, ur damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[zoony]

If this were the right course of action for Israel to follow, it would have worked a long time ago.



....

[Funkyalligator]

hezbollah is the government...in case people haven't noticed they make up about 20% of the parliment....so yes the government needs to deal with hezbollah....

[Destino]

I have a question - when did this idea of proportionate response pop up? It's has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Following a proportionate response doctrine assures never ending war. You attack, we attack, rinse repeat. No need to ever stop because losses are guaranteed to be limited.

What other nation actually uses this stupid plan? Should the US have responded to 9/11 by knocking down a few building in Afghanistan and then pulled back to wait for another attack to justify further action? Should we have used this tactic in WWII, Hitler takes Poland, we take it back, and then wait for him to take it again?

[dreamingwolf]

I have a question - when did this idea of proportionate response pop up? It's has to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Following a proportionate response doctrine assures never ending war. You attack, we attack, rinse repeat. No need to ever stop because losses are guaranteed to be limited.

What other nation actually uses this stupid plan? Should the US have responded to 9/11 by knocking down a few building in Afghanistan and then pulled back to wait for another attack to justify further action? Should we have used this tactic in WWII, Hitler takes Poland, we take it back, and then wait for him to take it again?

excellent post. Someone will probably come along and call you a heartless monster for it though.

[frankbones]

The Israeli-Lebanese border isn't some daily flashpoint like it used to be in the 80's. There's been a handful of incidents since Israel withdrew, the most recent being hezbollah's kidnapping of SOLDIERS.

Meanwhile Israel responds against all of Lebanon when it very well knows that the gov't isn't reponsible. As they have admitted, it is a form of COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT.

Article 33 of the GENEVA CONVENTION SAYS. "No protected person may be punished for an offence he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited."

This is my argument. Lebanon is the ONLY free and liberal democracy in the Middle East. It alone is being subjected to these raids when the orders are coming from Syria and Iran. The US knows this, Israel knows this.

Its a bunch of BS and its not going to get rid of hezbollah. When was the last time a guerilla force was defeated? They are trained in guerilla warfare and have over 20 years of experience. Thats why Lebanon has been treading carefully with how to disarm this group. Its a catch 22, ur damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Why do have the word soldiers in all caps? Are you saying that because they are soldiers, that kidnapping them from their own soil is somehow justified?

If someone from Mexico kidnaps 2 American soldiers from the border and the Mexican gov't respose is "Oh, well that was MS-13 that did it, we won't do anything", what do you think our response would be?

Now imagine MS-13 holding seats in Mexico's gov't. Mexico would be southern Texas in no time.

[herrmag]

Why do have the word soldiers in all caps? Are you saying that because they are soldiers, that kidnapping them from their own soil is somehow justified?

If someone from Mexico kidnaps 2 American soldiers from the border and the Mexican gov't respose is "Oh, well that was MS-13 that did it, we won't do anything", what do you think our response would be?

Now imagine MS-13 holding seats in Mexico's gov't. Mexico would be southern Texas in no time.

Excellent point. I was also wondering why the word "soldier" was in caps, as though as long as they are targeting the military, all is okay. If Hezbollah was some rogue group in Lebanon, just freelancing around in open land, and a known enemy of Lebanese, then that would be one thing. However, they have some power in the government. Therefore, the Lebanese government is to be held responsible.

[Zguy28]

I think they are exercising restraint. If they weren't, tanks would be rolling into Damascus already.

[Jumbo]

Good article, iheart. Good points, Destino. The Israeli ambassador just gave a good, brief presser just now from the UN, summing up their case effectively and calling hezbollah the "bloody fingers" at the end of a long arm of terror reaching for Syria & Iran. He mentions how Lebanon is still under siege and partial control of terrorists and Damascus who openly refer in their press to "Southern Lebanon" as a distinct country under their sponsorship and support. He also mentioned Israeli experts stating that the longer-range Kalujah (sp?) rockets shelling Israel appear to be exactly as those manufactured in Iran. He mentioned the understanding and support they privately, anonymously, receive from many Lebanese officials inside the government who despair at how their country is still shackled by the many failings of the PM & his cabinet to properly address their still-existing problems of disarming hezbollah and foreign interference from Syria. I won't try to replay anymore form memory, hopefully there will be a news item to post.

Obviously, no one in Lebanon (and hopefully anywhere else) is ok with civilians suffering. But the claim that Israel is de-stabilizing the Lebanese government is highly suspect. Which government? The one that allows hezbollah to continuously secure its influence in the south with hardly even any surface verbal protest, let alone serious military intervention? The one that admittedly allows several hundred known Iranian military advisors to come and go at will because they "do so legally"? Does anyone protesting Israel's actions wonder how it is they even have over two hundred terrorist targets identified to strike in Lebanon?

As I finish this post, Northern Israel towns are being hit by the largest rocket attacks yet (now over 200 in the last 48 hours). They are not aiming at airports, enclaves and facilities in civilian areas known to be openly used by terrorists after having warned the residents to flee. They are inaccurately and randomly lobbing rockets into civilian population centers. There is no "targeting" beyond that. I think this is likely to know only one resolution, and that is the serious crippling of Israel's foes or a never-ending series of such conflict. Nuclear doomsday (or celebratory) visions from either religious nuts or armchair Dr. Strangelove's aside, I regret that a great deal of death and suffering lies ahead for many innocent people.

Gaza operations are suspended for now. And demonstrations in support of hezbollah are being held in front of Israeli troops.

[skinfan13]

How many times can you turn the other cheek. They have tried that too, it incites greater violence and more terrorism. Terrorists, unfortunately, are civilian and hide amongst civilians. They bank on the fact that others' consciences won't let them counter in an area where children and innocents will be hurt. It's what makes war against terrorists even more brutal and heartwrenching. spot on Burgold, this is the sort of thing that seperates us from them; civility and cowardice. hiding and fighting behind women and children is far worse than deplorable, its cowardly.

[MrSilverMaC]

What drives me crazy is how fascist some people's speech can become. "Give Israel a free hand". "Let them finish the job". I swear to you that every single one of you who feel this way really would change your mind if you were in Lebanon and you saw the death, suffering, blood, and destruction that comes as a result of this mindset. As a human being, I don't wish that carnage on any civilian life.

By me calling you out for saying that doesn't mean I accept Hezbollah either. They could go to hell for all I care. But Lebanon will not go to hell with them. The country has 6000 years of history and it's name is mentioned in the Bible more than any other land. Lebanon never invaded anybody nor tried to win any land by force. The country has been used and abused by the powers that be-Iran, Syria, US, Israel so they can wage their wars and mini-wars. Now, this fledgling democracy, basically the example of everything the US preaches for the new middle east, is being systematically destroyed and not for purely military objectives but as a collective punishment against a helpless people. Instead of helping the moderates, we destroy them and then wonder why radicals take their place.



So now I am a fascist because I say let Israel finish a fight they didn't start???

Let me clue you in on a point you seem to be missing, Israel is fighting terrorists, terrorists are THE people. Now I am not saying everyone in lebanon is, not by a long shot, but that’s what terrorists are. That’s their shield. They don't wear a uniform. And when you fight them, civilians get killed, because that’s who they hide behind. And for the most part, the people support them.

Do you think Israel should just sit back and do nothing because the terrorists hide among civilians, and there is no way to completely eliminate collateral damage??? It's the same thing when they attack our troops and hide in mosques, except Israel is less afraid to kill civilians or destroy places than us.

Maybe the labanese government and hezbollah are two completely separate entities, but they sure don't operate like it.

You call me a fascist because I say let Israel do what they need, but you miss the point that it's something they NEED to do. And I don't need to see a dead lebanese kid to make that statement, all I needed to do was see live video of the first attack on the WTC and Americans hurt because of it, then turn the news on just before the second WTC tower crumbled before my eyes and watch live as thousands of my countrymen and women died live on TV for the world to see in the second attack, to make that statement. All I need to hear about is little kids on public buses in Israel that have their vital organs pulverized from and explosion from some jack-off muslim moron's backpack bomb, and imagine it happening here, to make that statement.

You said you are lebanese, and escaped the destruction your country went through, and I commend you for getting out, and trying to make your life better. That’s what America is about. But don't sit there and act like you've got the monopoly on dead innocents, and don't sit there and tell me Israel is unprovoked and over-reacting to this situation.

[Burgold]

I think it goes without saying that Isreal has withstood thousands of terrorist attacks and their restraint has been remarkable. I've never heard you once (if I missed it, I apologize) post in response to a car bombing, suicide attack, or IED attack against Israel. Every nation has its tipping point. There is only so much they can take. I also think it goes without saying that 90% of terrorist attacks against Israel have been aimed at civilians.

Lebanon only had/has two choices 1) do everything in its power to stop, arrest, eliminate the terrorism stemming from its country or 2) to support the terrorists. They really chose option three, which is to turn a blind eye while spouting anti-terrorist rhetoric. In any case, they have through at best benign neglect empowered and supported terrorism in their nation and at worst have actively supported and empowered terrorism in their country.

This is far different than the U.S. attacking Iraq. You can make an argument that the Iraqis never attacked the U.S. and never had any intention to. Here, a nation has been beseiged constantly and the neighbors who allow those attacks either encourage it or do nothing to stop it.

[herrmag]

Good article, iheart. Good points, Destino. The Israeli ambassador just gave a good, brief presser just now from the UN, summing up their case effectively and calling hezbollah the "bloody fingers" at the end of a long arm of terror reaching for Syria & Iran. He mentions how Lebanon is still under siege and partial control of terrorists and Damascus who openly refer in their press to "Southern Lebanon" as a distinct country under their sponsorship and support. He also mentioned Israeli experts stating that the longer-range Kalujah (sp?) rockets shelling Israel appear to be exactly as those manufactured in Iran. He mentioned the understanding and support they privately, anonymously, receive from many Lebanese officials inside the government who despair at how their country is still shackled by the many failings of the PM & his cabinet to properly address their still-existing problems of disarming hezbollah and foreign interference from Syria. I won't try to replay anymore form memory, hopefully there will be a news item to post.

Obviously, no one in Lebanon (and hopefully anywhere else) is ok with civilians suffering. But the claim that Israel is de-stabilizing the Lebanese government is highly suspect. Which government? The one that allows hezbollah to continuously secure its influence in the south with hardly even any surface verbal protest, let alone serious military intervention? The one that admittedly allows several hundred known Iranian military advisors to come and go at will because they "do so legally"? Does anyone protesting Israel's actions wonder how it is they even have over two hundred terrorist targets identified to strike in Lebanon?

As I finish this post, Northern Israel towns are being hit by the largest rocket attacks yet (now over 200 in the last 48 hours). They are not aiming at airports, enclaves and facilities in civilian areas known to be openly used by terrorists after having warned the residents to flee. They are inaccurately and randomly lobbing rockets into civilian population centers. There is no "targeting" beyond that. I think this is likely to know only one resolution, and that is the serious crippling of Israel's foes or a never-ending series of such conflict. Nuclear doomsday (or celebratory) visions from either religious nuts or armchair Dr. Strangelove's aside, I regret that a great deal of death and suffering lies ahead for many innocent people.

Gaza operations are suspended for now. And demonstrations in support of hezbollah are being held in front of Israeli troops.


Great post Jumbo. :cheers:

Do you think you could copy it into the other 2 Israel/Lebanon threads as well? :D

[jbooma]

Looks as if some leaders might be changing what they said:

ST. PETERSBURG, Russia - President Bush wants Israel to minimize the risk of casualties in its campaign in southern Lebanon, but will not press it to halt its military operation, the White House said on Friday.

White House spokesman Tony Snow told reporters that Bush spoke by telephone to Lebanon’s prime minister among other Middle East leaders.

Snow said Bush “believes the Israelis have the right to protect themselves and that in doing that they should limit as much as possible so-called collateral damage not only to facilities but also to human lives,” Snow said.

Asked whether he agreed to Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora’s request to tell the Israelis to limit their military operations, Snow said: “No. The president is not going to make military decisions for Israel.”

Bush’s conversation with Saniora as he flew to St. Petersburg, Russia from Germany was part of a round of telephone diplomacy aimed at quelling the flare-up in violence in the Mideast. The president also spoke with allies Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and Jordan’s King Abdullah II about the violence in their neighborhood, the White House said.

Egypt, Jordan condemn Israel
The leaders of Egypt and Jordan met on Friday and both condemned Israeli attacks on Lebanon and Gaza and called on all sides to show self-restraint.

A joint statement issued after the meeting also said that attacks on Lebanese and Palestinian utilities and infrastructure were against international law.

Egypt and Jordan are the only Arab countries with peace treaties with Israel and Israeli embassies in their capitals.

Arab governments have agreed to send their foreign ministers to Cairo for an emergency meeting on Saturday to discuss the Israeli attacks on Lebanon and incursions into Gaza.

Saudi Arabia on Thursday blamed “elements” inside Lebanon for the violence, in unusually frank language directed at guerrilla group Hezbollah and its Iranian backers.

“A distinction must be made between legitimate resistance and uncalculated adventures undertaken by elements inside (Lebanon) and those behind them without recourse to the legal authorities and consulting and coordinating with Arab nations,” a statement carried by the official news agency SPA said.

As the leaders conferred, Israeli war planes bombed Beirut’s airport Friday for a second day, along with southern suburbs of the capital.


Israel's military began striking targets in Lebanon after Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers Wednesday in a brazen cross-border raid into northern Israel. Hezbollah militants have fired hundreds of rockets at northern Israel. Dozens of Lebanese and at least 10 Israelis have been killed.

Hezbollah is an the Iranian-backed militant Shiite faction which has a free hand in southern Lebanon and also holds seats in parliament. The Lebanese government has no control over Hezbollah but has long resisted international pressure to forcibly disarm the group for fears of igniting sectarian conflict.

At the same time, Israeli forces have been pounding the Gaza Strip to the south since shortly after the June 25 taking of an Israeli soldier by militants linked to the Palestinian Hamas group.

Chirac critical of Israel
European leaders expressed fears of a widening Middle East conflict that could spiral out of control.

French President Jacques Chirac castigated Israel for its military offensive in Lebanon on Friday, calling it "totally disproportionate," and asked aloud whether Lebanon's destruction was not the ultimate goal.

However, the French president balanced his words, saying that rockets fired on Israel by Hezbollah and Hamas are "inadmissible, unacceptable and irresponsible."

"I have the feeling, if not the conviction, that Hamas and Hezbollah wouldn't have taken the initiatives alone," Chirac said, making a veiled reference to Syria and Iran, which backs Hezbollah.

The growing crisis, along with concern that Iran may be seeking to develop nuclear arms, creates "a truly dangerous situation in which we must be very, very careful," Chirac said.

Other reactions included:

Russian President Vladimir Putin called on all sides to stand down. "All the sides that are involved in the conflict must immediately cease military action," he said before a G-8 summit this weekend in St. Petersburg.
The European Union was sending its foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, to the region Saturday, and the 25 foreign ministers of the EU were to meet Monday in Brussels to discuss the crisis. Erkki Tuomioja, foreign minister of Finland, which currently holds the EU's rotating presidency, expressed everyone's silent fear that the conflict could expand, even to Syria, which some countries like France feel may have had a hand in the escalation.
Spanish Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero warned Israel that it was "making a mistake" to attack Lebanon and said that both the EU and the United Nations must secure "an immediate cessation of the hostilities."
The Vatican also expressed fears of a widening conflict.
The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.

[Kilmer17]

Maybe this "skirmish" will finally reveal the truth that most of the Govts in the middle east support, if not directly, and encourage the actions of the terrorists.

I say let's pull back the covers and see what rots underneath.