A request to all true football fans

[NewCliche21]

I'm a Redskins fan, obviously. I sleep to dream them and wake to breathe them. I hate the Cowboys. I hate the Eagles. I hate the Giants. I hate the Bucs. I hate the Broncos. I hate the Raiders. I hate the Ravens. I hate a lot of players, too.

I hate players because of who they are, regardless of their team. Roy Williams, for example, would get nothing but boos and solo fingers for me whether or not he was a Cowboy or a Redskin. Same with T.O. or Parcells. I just genuinely don't like them, and they happen to be on another team.

But here's the catch: I don't hate the players because they're on a team that I hate. Why bring this up? Because it's time people around here started being football fans instead of blind homers.

There's a lot of HOF buzz in the air, and of course it always ends up with Art. In one thread I saw so much smack being talked about Aikman, Smith, and Irvin. I don't get it. Maybe Irvin's not an outstanding person off the field, or wasn't back then (he DOES campaign on Monk's behalf), but he was a truly great player. Smith? Tremendous. Aikman? Top 25 all-time, easy. I've never hated them; I've hated what team they were on.

I don't like seeing 'Skins fans bash Aikman or revel in his career-ending injury. He's a fantastic person and one of the best quarterbacks of all-time. I was glad that the Cowboys quarterback wasn't there to terrorize our team anymore, NOT glad that a fantastic man had been hurt.

I remember seeing in a recent thread about the ESPN poll that dallasfanforlife had voted for Monk. That's because he respects amazing players regardless of what team they're on. I applaud that.

Please, guys, we're all (for the most part) fans of the greatest team in sports. We're classy, we're knowledgable, and it's about time that we started acting like it.

[HeHateMe]

Classy post about Aikman.

And I understand the hatred towards Owens regardless of his team.

But why the hate for Williams if not because he's on Dallas?

The guy is a class act on and off the field.

Do tell.

[NewCliche21]

Classy post about Aikman.

And I understand the hatred towards Owens regardless of his team.

But why the hate for Williams if not because he's on Dallas?

The guy is a class act on and off the field.

Do tell.

I don't want to get into this in this thread, but there's just something about that late hit that he had in the Pro Bowl this year that just really irked me. It's tough to explain, but he never really rubbed me the right way to begin with, and not because of his team, but to be three full seconds late on a hit like that, out of bounds, during a game that doesn't matter? I just can't condone that.

[HeHateMe]

I don't want to get into this in this thread, but there's just something about that late hit that he had in the Pro Bowl this year that just really irked me. It's tough to explain, but he never really rubbed me the right way to begin with, and not because of his team, but to be three full seconds late on a hit like that, out of bounds, during a game that doesn't matter? I just can't condone that.

So you must completely loath Sean Taylor right?

If that late hit irks you, then spitting in the face of an opposing player must completely disgust you.

[No_Pressure]

Classy post about Aikman.

And I understand the hatred towards Owens regardless of his team.

But why the hate for Williams if not because he's on Dallas?

The guy is a class act on and off the field.

Do tell.

Personally, I dont like Roy Williams because in my opinion he is a dirty player. Im not saying hes the only one but I cant remember anybody other than Romanowski that looked like they were actually trying to injure the other team's player on any given play. He horse collars and makes dangerous hits leading with his head often. You Dallas fans know he does, and he doesnt get in trouble for it often enough. He has hurt multiple people and badly injured a couple...plus what was the hit in the Pro Bowl on Rod Smith about? Thats my reason to dislike the player. I feel he plays unnecessairily dirty and takes cheap shots. I am not saying he is the only one that does but he stands out to me and maybe one of these times he will do worse than fracture somebody's ankle...

As far as Taylor goes I dont like what he did at all. I still like him because he is a talented athlete but really spitting isnt the same as causing injury.

[Birdlives]

Classy post about Aikman.

But why the hate for Williams if not because he's on Dallas?

The guy is a class act on and off the field.

Do tell.


So you must completely loath Sean Taylor right?

If that late hit irks you, then spitting in the face of an opposing player must completely disgust you.



Excellent post Newcliche. I applaud your take on this situation. Aikman was a great QB deserving of the Hall. Nothing bad or tasteless should be said just because he was a cowboy.

Hehateme, after this initial post all you can do is find fault with him not liking Roy? Really? One passing compliment and then it's on to being critical.

:doh:

[JoeSkins]

If that late hit irks you, then spitting in the face of an opposing player must completely disgust you.

Mike Pittman deserves anything he gets, simply because he hits women. Also, overreact much to him not liking Williams?

[Capt. Jack]

I've always liked Aikman, he's a class act. He was a great QB and he's also a great commentator and very objective. I just didn't like the fact that he was a cowboy.
:dallasuck

[TMSCAW5312]

OK I admit it... I've done it, and talked smack about players on teams I hate, even though I know they're good.

But I will say that the blow-for-blow smack talking conversations are different than my serious, lets talk football conversations. And usually they're with good smack-talking intentions with friends of mine.

That said, I get what you're saying, give credit where it's due.

[IrishOrange15]

I'd like to believe that I don't "hate" Skins fans. I have a disdain for a lot of them, but pure hate is a different story. Philly fans on the other hand are a different story. They cheered wildly when Irvin was down on the turf. If you think about it, Michael Irvin never did anything bad to these people except cause them pain when he did his job to his best ability. That's all. Yet, they were cheering him down on the turf.

Then bring it to last December when Washington was smearing the Cowboys at Fed Ex. Marco Rivera goes down, but the Skins fans applauded. If this were Eagles fans in the same situation, they would have cheered.

In general, I don't hate opposing teams fans unless they get too obnoxious or do something completely rude or in Philly's case, do something completely classless. I'm sure there's plenty of good Philly fans, but after watching them egg the Dallas team bus and then try to pick a fight with Clinton Portis' mom last year, they've earned the classless thug stereotype given to them.

Personally, I don't mind if somebody doesn't think so and so belongs in the hall of fame. Just back up your point with a reasonable argument. To say Irvin doesn't belong in the HOF because he was an idiot off the field doesn't take into account that the rules state that players shall be voted by their play on the field, not what they do off of it. And if LT can make the HOF despite his off the field antics, Irvin should as well.

I don't believe Monk belongs in the HOF. I have my reasons for that (mainly his stats on a year-to-year basis don't look very good against his peers). But, I've heard decent reasoning of why Aikman doesn't belong in the HOF as well. I may disagree with the person who thinks Monk should be in and Aikman shouldn't, but if they can come up with a decent argument backing their points, I have no issue with that.


Rich.........

[Peregrine]

"We're classy, we're knowledgable, and it's about time that we started acting like it."

And yet you defend Irvin in the same post? You were almost rational except for the blatant contradiction.

We ARE classy, and we ARE knowledgeable, which is why I will always talk smack about Irvin(well, maybe ill start now).

[ouvan59]

Excellent post Newcliche. I applaud your take on this situation. Aikman was a great QB deserving of the Hall. Nothing bad or tasteless should be said just because he was a cowboy.

Hehateme, after this initial post all you can do is find fault with him not liking Roy? Really? One passing compliment and then it's on to being critical.

:doh:

In all fairness, that is exactly the point that Skins fans would have focused on if a Cowboy fan had said that he hates a lot of Skins like Sean Taylor but loved Art Monk.

The first response would be "Classy comments about Monk but why don't you like Taylor?" And then it would have dissolved into a pissing match.

Personally I don't have a problem at all with Williams. Now TO.........

[THEHEREAFTER]

"We're classy, we're knowledgable, and it's about time that we started acting like it."

And yet you defend Irvin in the same post? You were almost rational except for the blatant contradiction.

We ARE classy, and we ARE knowledgeable, which is why I will always talk smack about Irvin(well, maybe ill start now).

Really, what do you have against Irvin? Aside from his own off the field personal issues he was truly the consumate professional and teammate. The casual fan truly doesn't understand how big this mans passion and heart was.

[THEHEREAFTER]

I don't want to get into this in this thread, but there's just something about that late hit that he had in the Pro Bowl this year that just really irked me. It's tough to explain, but he never really rubbed me the right way to begin with, and not because of his team, but to be three full seconds late on a hit like that, out of bounds, during a game that doesn't matter? I just can't condone that.

I guess you're not old enough to appreciate the Dick Butkus', Jack Lambert, Ronny Lott type players? Players that would rip your head off. I think I would understand moreso if you said that you hated him because he's a Cowboy. I don't think he goes out with the intention of playing dirty he just plays hard, a class act on and off the field. If you despise players who've made late hits then you're doing ALOT of hating including on your boy ST.

[H-O-G]

I really like Aikman as an announcer.

[HeHateMe]

Hehateme, after this initial post all you can do is find fault with him not liking Roy? Really? One passing compliment and then it's on to being critical.

:doh:

Not being critical at all.

I was actually very curious.

He stated he hated Roy Williams, and I simply wanted to know why.

Aside from his hits on the field, where some think he tries to hurt people intentionally, he truly is a class act.

So I just wanted to know, after such a class post, his reasoning for hating a certain player.

I did acknowledge and understand his hate for T.O. though. ;)

[HeHateMe]

As far as Taylor goes I dont like what he did at all. I still like him because he is a talented athlete but really spitting isnt the same as causing injury.

I really dont think when he makes those tackles his intent and purpose is to break a leg or ankle or tear a knee.

Its a form of tackle that has been banned because of the potential for injury.

Because a few players happened to get injured as a result of it is nowhere near the level of intentionally spitting in the face of another player.

[No_Pressure]

I really dont think when he makes those tackles his intent and purpose is to break a leg or ankle or tear a knee.

Its a form of tackle that has been banned because of the potential for injury.

Because a few players happened to get injured as a result of it is nowhere near the level of intentionally spitting in the face of another player.

But spitting in someone's face never fractured it...Roy injured people playing the way he did, intentional or not, and he contunies to do it. It isnt like he has done it just 2-3 times in the heat of the game he is doing it about every game at one point or another, I can remember one in the 1st skins dallas game last year against Brunell (though it was legal vs. QB for god knows what reason) and 2 in the 35-7 game as well as the injuries he caused which are well known.

Saying he is clear of all fault because he doesnt intend to do it is like if someone walked into the woods with an assault rifle, sprayed in every direction, hit and injured somebody by accident, then claimed it was simply unintentional and you never meant to hurt anybody... then the very next week there you are, walking back into the woods and shooting in a circle again- claiming that you arent hurting people on purpose and it wasnt your intent, then doing it again for the next 14 weeks.

If Roy Williams isnt trying to play dirty then why doesnt he stop horse collaring entirely? I mean nobody is perfect somebody is bound to make an honest mistake and horse collar at some point as an NFL player, but Roy seems to be the only one that makes a habit of it.

As for the Aikman part of this thread cause it's kinda been hi-hacked a bit, he deserves the hall of fame and I really think he and his team is the best commentating crew in the NFL today, I like his unbiased remarks which is more than I can say for Darryl Johnston.

[bubba9497]

I don't hate players because of the uniform they wear. I don't "hate" anyone of the players... I strongly dislike some but because of their personality not their uniform.

While I get accused of basing my opinions on jersey color, nothing could be farther from the truth.

I have always respected players worthy of it, even if they caused the Redskins problems... maybe more because they could. (if you know what I mean)

I have the ut most respect for coaches like Laundry, Parcells, Vermil, Ryan, Jimmy Johnson. I admired players like Staubach, Pearson, Newhouse, Lily, Martin, Randy White, Aikamn, Emmitt... guys who gave a 100%, and where class on & off the field. I wanted the Skins to draft Witten soooo bad, and even though I nearly cried when he was drafted by the pokes, It doesn't change my respect for him as a player. I would have love to have had the Pokes OL in the 90's after the hogs left.

Same with guys from the eagles & giants.I grew up watching Jaws, Montgomery, Carmichael, Clyde Humphreys, Bergan, Herm Edwards... and Giants like Simms, Morris, Barvo, LT, Pepper Johnson, Carson, Burt, OJ Anderson

it's like I told someone the other day, there is a difference between hating and insulting the logo and making it personal.

My Best friend (best man at my wedding) is a fool poke fan. :doh: I tried to teach him better .... but he is closer to me than one of my brothers.

It's just a game, we love it, but it's not as important as life itself.

[DjTj]

In my ideal scenario, both Monk and Irvin make it into the HOF this year ... it is a fact that they are stealing some votes from each other, and it's at a point now where it will be hard for one to get in without the other ... if they both don't get in this year, they'll be stuck behind Cris Carter in 2008 and Jerry Rice in 2010.

The longer they both stay on the ballot, the harder it will be for both of them. It's exactly like the Swann/Stallworth situation, but we don't want to be waiting 15 years to break the logjam. At least one of them HAS to get in this year, which would open the door for the other one to be inducted in 2009 or 2011-12.

They deserve it too. They're both big, physical receivers that redefined the position. They both have 3 rings. And they both played in the greatest rivalry in sports and came out on top during their careers...

[NewCliche21]

Thank you to the few people who actually read what I wrote and didn't hijack the thread and make it about Roy Williams. I guess that some people just didn't get the thread, or just have team-tinted glasses.

Whatever. I appreciate those who had real responses.

[tr1]

My Best friend (best man at my wedding) is a fool poke fan. :doh: I tried to teach him better .... but he is closer to me than one of my brothers.


If this is true, then you have no other recourse except to get him pass-out drunk, shave a particular part of his body, and dye it blue and silver...

If he's a true pukes fan, he should thank you.

[JoeSkins]

Aikman's speech was probably the second best after Madden today. Every time I listen to him on TV, I have to remind myself why I hated him during his playing days. He's just a class act.

[whatmeworry]

I'd like to believe that I don't "hate" Skins fans. I have a disdain for a lot of
I don't believe Monk belongs in the HOF. I have my reasons for that (mainly his stats on a year-to-year basis don't look very good against his peers). But, I've heard decent reasoning of why Aikman doesn't belong in the HOF as well. I may disagree with the person who thinks Monk should be in and Aikman shouldn't, but if they can come up with a decent argument backing their points, I have no issue with that.


Rich.........


Michael Irvin 159 games 750 catches = 4.71 a game
Art Monk 224 games 940 catches= 4.19
Lynn Swann 115 336 = 2.92
Steve Largent 200 819 = 4.09


Yeah, I guess Monk doesn't belong.

[BigDFan5]

Michael Irvin 159 games 750 catches = 4.71 a game
Art Monk 224 games 940 catches= 4.19
Lynn Swann 115 336 = 2.92
Steve Largent 200 819 = 4.09


Yeah, I guess Monk doesn't belong.

I won't argue Swann because I dont believe he belongs but.

Numbers reflect regular season games

Largent 200 games
Monk 224 games
Irvin 159 games


TD's per game

Largent .50 a game
Irvin .41 a game
Monk .30 a game


Pro Bowls

Largent 7
Irvin 5
Monk 3


Led team in receiving

Largent 12 times
Michael Irvin 8 times
Monk 4 times


1,000 yard seasons

Largent 8 times
Irvin 7 times
Monk 5 times


Times among top 10 in receiving yards in a season

Largent 8 times
Irvin 6 times
Monk 3 times


Top 10 in TDs in a season

Largent 8 times
Irvin 5 times
Monk 1 time


top 10 in reception in a season

Largent 9 times
Irvin 4 times
Monk 4 times

[IrishOrange15]

Michael Irvin 159 games 750 catches = 4.71 a game
Art Monk 224 games 940 catches= 4.19
Lynn Swann 115 336 = 2.92
Steve Largent 200 819 = 4.09


Yeah, I guess Monk doesn't belong.


Monk only finished in the top 10 in receiving yards in a season 3 different times in his career and finished in the top 10 in receiving TD's once.

OTOH, Irvin finished in the top 10 in receiving yards 6 different times and in the top 10 in TD's 5 different times.

Largent finished in the top 10 in receiving yards 8 times and in the top 10 in TD's 8 different times.

I've never said that Lynn Swann belongs in the hall. The voters messed up on that part as far as I'm concerned. But Monk doesn't belong in the HOF in my mind because his yards per season and TD's per season were incredibly average against his peers. And that's why I don't think Monk belongs in the HOF.

Rich.....

[bubba9497]

Whoa big fellow, lets put this in the proper prospective...




Numbers reflect regular season games

Largent 200 games
Monk 224 games
Irvin 159 games



no arguemnets there, it should be noted that the last three season monk was a #3 or #4 WR with Philly, and NYJ, and though active for games didn't play the bulk of them.




TD's per game

Largent .50 a game
Irvin .41 a game
Monk .30 a game

See above, plus for the bulk of Monks career, he played beside all pro WR... guys like Charlie Brown, Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders... where Largent and Irvin were the main guy, with no other options....



Pro Bowls

Largent 7
Irvin 5
Monk 3

popularity contest, has no real barring in HOF selection... Mike Vick went to the pro bowl last seasson.. 'nuff said



Led team in receiving

Largent 12 times
Michael Irvin 8 times
Monk 4 times

see above, that is a cherry picked stat if I ever saw one :laugh:

The #2 WR each season Michael Irvin lead the team

91- Alvin harper 20
92- Alvin Harper 35
93- Alvin Harper 36
94- Alvin Harper 33
95- Kevin Williams 38
96- Kevin Williams 27
97- Anthony Miller 46
98- Billy Davis 39

only once did a WR have over 40, twice UNDER 30 :doh:

Hell the year Monk had 106 Calvin Muhammad had 42
His next biggest year '85 he had 91 catches, Gary Clark had 72
3rd biggest Year he had 86, Sanders had 80, Clark had 79

see a pattern here, many seasons during Monks career the Skins #3 wr had more than Dallas #2 during Irvins hey day



1,000 yard seasons

Largent 8 times
Irvin 7 times
Monk 5 times

again see above



Times among top 10 in receiving yards in a season

Largent 8 times
Irvin 6 times
Monk 3 times

Top 10 in TDs in a season

Largent 8 times
Irvin 5 times
Monk 1 time

top 10 in reception in a season

Largent 9 times
Irvin 4 times
Monk 4 times

not only see above, but that is a stat that is pointless in comparing players unless they played exactly the same years, because each season WR passing total change


If Monk was in Dallas's scheme during Irvins career... He would have easily put up the same numbers if not more than Irvin did. However I have a hard time believing Irvin could have had the same imapct as Monk during Monks career, having to scarafice numbers , and share the ball for the good of the team. The fact that Monk used to block LB.s and DE alone puts him above Irvin , not to mention Monk never had to push off to get seperation .... something Irvin got away with his entire career.

[JStone2126]

I ultimately respect Art Monk more and not just because I am a Skins fan, but because I have been around him and witnessed myself how clasy the guy really is.
I may be wrong, but did Michael Irvin and Stever Largent have as good as a supporting cast as Monk did? I don't think so. Aas far as Michael Irvin getting into the HOF, I would be ok with it. However, my only memories of Irvin were of him celebrating too much after every catch he made. My most vivid memory was of him catching a a pass and gaining 2 yards and I swore he got up and celebrated like he caught a screen pass, broke 11 tackles and ran the ball in from 80 yards out. As for his stats, sure, let Michael in the Hall, but Monk really defeines what a great player is. More so than Michael.

[BigDFan5]

no arguemnets there, it should be noted that the last three season monk was a #3 or #4 WR with Philly, and NYJ, and though active for games didn't play the bulk of them.

His final season he didnt play in a bulk of them, but he played 16 games the few years years previous to that, getting over 40 catches each year.





See above, plus for the bulk of Monks career, he played beside all pro WR... guys like Charlie Brown, Gary Clark, Ricky Sanders... where Largent and Irvin were the main guy, with no other options....

Playing beside other All Pro WRs does not make you more Hall worthy.




popularity contest, has no real barring in HOF selection... Mike Vick went to the pro bowl last seasson.. 'nuff said

It may be a popularity Contest now even though 66% of the vote is based on coaches and players, but that was not the case before 1995. remember online fan ballots are still new.




see above, that is a cherry picked stat if I ever saw one :laugh:

The #2 WR each season Michael Irvin lead the team

91- Alvin harper 20
92- Alvin Harper 35
93- Alvin Harper 36
94- Alvin Harper 33
95- Kevin Williams 38
96- Kevin Williams 27
97- Anthony Miller 46
98- Billy Davis 39

only once did a WR have over 40, twice UNDER 30 :doh:

Hell the year Monk had 106 Calvin Muhammad had 42
His next biggest year '85 he had 91 catches, Gary Clark had 72
3rd biggest Year he had 86, Sanders had 80, Clark had 79

see a pattern here, many seasons during Monks career the Skins #3 wr had more than Dallas #2 during Irvins hey day

Not cherry picked at all. I say a hall of fame receiver should lead his team in yards more than 4 times in 16 years.



again see above

Again this is a stat that matters, why was he not getting the touches to break 1000 yards in a season? Because Clark was. Clark had 5 1,000 yard seasons and he played 5 less years than Monk




not only see above, but that is a stat that is pointless in comparing players unless they played exactly the same years, because each season WR passing total change


If Monk was in Dallas's scheme during Irvins career... He would have easily put up the same numbers if not more than Irvin did. However I have a hard time believing Irvin could have had the same imapct as Monk during Monks career, having to scarafice numbers , and share the ball for the good of the team. The fact that Monk used to block LB.s and DE alone puts him above Irvin , not to mention Monk never had to push off to get seperation .... something Irvin got away with his entire career

Not useless at all. Largent was doing all this before and at the same time as Monk. So the passing game changing had no effect on him. As for Monk in Dallas we would have not been as good as we were. and on Irvin pushing off it wasn't against the rules so whats the big deal? Think how Irvins numbers would have been if he didnt sacrafice his numbers for the sake of the team. Emmitt Smith was the TD guy, irvin would have had plenty more TDs if Emmitt had not been there. Blockng? you do realize Irvin blocked on every run right?

[tr1]

BigDFan, you're great at cherry picking stats.

I'm glad you have all that time on your hands.

Also, when you say things like, "you do realize Irvin blocked on every run right?", it makes you look foolish. Irvin took plays off...that's a fact.

[JStone2126]

Ya...Irvin DID take plays off, either way you look at it...Monks character puts him over Irvin, and Monk was never...EVER linked to any drug usage.