KC Joyner Chimes in on the Sean Taylor Roy Williams Debate

[skins4eva]

Well, folks--he actually answered my question, but he split the baby Solomon style. This is my question btw, kinda cool.

Cliff (McLean, VA): KC--love your stuff. I'm in a big argument with a cowboys fan about who is better--Sean Taylor or Roy Williams...could you answer it for us? And which do you think will have the better season? Thanks!

KC Joyner: (4:15 PM ET ) I am not trying to split the difference but the metrics show Taylor is better at coverage and Williams is better at run support. They play different positions as well, so that makes an apples/apples comparison a bit harder.

Dan (DC): What do your metrics say about the Skins O-Line?

KC Joyner: (5:28 PM ET ) The metrics show that the Skins had four dominant offensive linemen last year. Chris Samuels topped the 92% success rate and Derrick Dockery wasn't far behind him. The Redskins have a great group of blockers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cliff (McLean, VA): Speaking of old O-lineman, shouldn't some of the HOGS be in the HOF?

KC Joyner: (5:29 PM ET ) Let's end this up on a high note! I agree that the Hogs O line should have HOFer. They should start with Russ Grimm and go from there.

Thanks to everyone for chatting today. See you all next week!

[Skins11]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.

[DWinzit]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.
Game, set, match, close thread! :logo:

[Skins4481]

the way he answered it you know he didnt want to get in the middle of it.

[skins4eva]

Exactly--very evasive--he doesn't want to piss off potential purchasers of his book

[ddub52]

either way we got AA to help us with the run

[skins4eva]

This is pretty funny:

Jeremy (nyc): I'm the one who asked the original SAFETIES question and you are all wrong - SEAN TAYLOR IS GOD.

KC Joyner: (5:00 PM ET ) I answer an opinion question and now it turns into a religious debate as well!

[terpfan]

Ask Tatum Bell, Priest Holmes, or Lorenzo Neal how Taylor is at run support...

[CowboysForLife]

See, it's impossible to compare them. Let's just save ourselves years of our lives and just admit that BOTH of these players are very good.

[Tulane Skins Fan]

except that roy williams isnt very good

[kevinklein]

It's not an apples/apples comparison, though.

Well maybe a green apples vs red apples...but definitley not same color apples.

Different positions.

[panel]

you know what eles would be better at run support, a DT playing saftey, If Taylor played the run on every play like williams, Taylor would be better at run support, be he does both sucessfully.

[bubba9497]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.


He rated Williams 14th in passing yardage giving up by a safety


wonder how well taylor rates in run support.... I can't believe it is that low, he makes so many tackles at the LOS

[hoskins]

That says it all right there. I don't have the slightest worry about ST's ability to play the run. He's a sure tackler and he's definitely not getting run over by any RB or FB for that matter. He is not by any stretch of any imagination even close to a liability in the run dept.

And of course this is same player who can cover like a corner.

If Williams and Sean were both put into a supplemental draft and you had the first pick, who do you take?

[bubba9497]

Jeremy (nyc): Most threatening safety in the league: Sean Taylor or Roy Williams????

Matt Williamson: Taylor. What a stud.


Via Espn Insider
http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=12680

[Skins11]

Ask Tatum Bell, Willie Parker, or J.J. Arrington about how Sean Taylor is in run support.

[Sowers]

you know what eles would be better at run support, a DT playing saftey, If Taylor played the run on every play like williams, Taylor would be better at run support, be he does both sucessfully.

Ummm are you serious? Dumb idea, plus once a rb gets that far into the secondary he would break the poor dts ankles.

[Zen-like Todd]

Ummm are you serious? Dumb idea, plus once a rb gets that far into the secondary he would break the poor dts ankles.

You misunderstood the point he was making.

[IrishOrange15]

You misunderstood the point he was making.

I wish Roy just got to play the run all of the time. By the halfway point of last season he was practically playing FS since Pile/Davis were liabilities in deep coverage.


YAKUZA

[ArmchairRedskin]

Let's put it this way. If Roy were to switch to FS and Taylor were to switch to SS, who would make the better transition?

[waterwagen]

Let's put it this way. If Roy were to switch to FS and Taylor were to switch to SS, who would make the better transition?Roy would make a great transition...to second string. :D

[Ken]

Let's put it this way. If Roy were to switch to FS and Taylor were to switch to SS, who would make the better transition?
Considering Roy has played FS a couple of years ago.....


:doh:

[skins4eva]

Dan (DC): What do your metrics say about the Skins O-Line?

KC Joyner: (5:28 PM ET ) The metrics show that the Skins had four dominant offensive linemen last year. Chris Samuels topped the 92% success rate and Derrick Dockery wasn't far behind him. The Redskins have a great group of blockers.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cliff (McLean, VA): Speaking of old O-lineman, shouldn't some of the HOGS be in the HOF?

KC Joyner: (5:29 PM ET ) Let's end this up on a high note! I agree that the Hogs O line should have HOFer. They should start with Russ Grimm and go from there.

Thanks to everyone for chatting today. See you all next week!

[ArmchairRedskin]

Considering Roy has played FS a couple of years ago.....


:doh:



Yeah, and how did he do? :laugh:


Was Roy anywhere close to Sean's level? Would you think that Taylor couldn't do everything that Roy does as a SS and do it better?

[Ken]

Yeah, and how did he do? :laugh:


Was Roy anywhere close to Sean's level? Would you think that Taylor couldn't do everything that Roy does as a SS and do it better?
Sorry dude...

I don't live in your fantasy world where Sean Taylor is superman.

Has not shown me that.

It takes more than running back a couple of fumbles to be considered great.

Oh, and he made the pro bowl in 04'.



:cheers:

[bubba9497]

Sorry dude...

I don't live in your fantasy world where Sean Taylor is superman.




No you live in a fantasy world where you think Roy Williams is good

[allskinz]

Taylor is better at coverage and Williams is better at run support. They play different positions as well, so that makes an apples/apples comparison a bit harder.


I think Santana Moss can vouch for how good Williams is at pass coverage ??????????????? :cheers:

[ArmchairRedskin]

Sorry dude...

I don't live in your fantasy world where Sean Taylor is superman.

Has not shown me that.

It takes more than running back a couple of fumbles to be considered great.

Oh, and he made the pro bowl in 04'.



:cheers:


Pro Bowls mean nothing. The name Mike Vick mean anything to you? Roy got in on name recognition. Every time I checked in with Cowboys fans, they were screaming bloody murder that Roy sucked at FS.

Sean doesn't have to be superman to be better than Roy. He just has to be Sean.

[Dirk Diggler]

If we're going to play the Pro Bowl card then Lito Sheppard is better than Terrence Newman.

[The Batman]

Hey KC, why don't you go see if you can wave some smelling salt under Mike Anderson's nose and wake him up long enough to ask him what he thinks about Sean Taylor's run support?:laugh:
:logo:

[TEK2000]

Does anyone promoting Sean Taylor and downing Roy Williams actually have ANY substance to bring up in this discussion?

I mean... everyone on every thread pertaining to Roy Williams or Sean Taylor just throws out some sort of opinion without actually providing any kind of evidence or statistics or anything to support it.

[Dirk McGirk]

how is ST not as good in run support?? hes in on every tackle!

[TEK2000]

how is ST not as good in run support?? hes in on every tackle!

If that's true...at what point in the game does he actually COVER recievers then?

[Skins4481]

If that's true...at what point in the game does he actually COVER recievers then?

This might be a suprise to you but Sean Taylor is ALL OVER THE FIELD. Unlike Roy Williams, he excels against BOTH the RUN and the PASS.

BTW, I think that since both players HAVE played FS(and one still does) they can be compared. Obviously, Roy Williams couldnt cut it as a FS and therefore Dallas had to move his ass to SS. Taylor can start playing SS tomorrow and do it better than Roy Williams.

[TEK2000]

This might be a suprise to you but Sean Taylor is ALL OVER THE FIELD. Unlike Roy Williams, he excels against BOTH the RUN and the PASS.

BTW, I think that since both players HAVE played FS(and one still does) they can be compared. Obviously, Roy Williams couldnt cut it as a FS and therefore Dallas had to move his ass to SS. Taylor can start playing SS tomorrow and do it better than Roy Williams.

Again.. you're spewing an opinion without any supporting evidence.

[Skins4481]

Again.. you're spewing an opinion without any supporting evidence.

The evidence is in the videotape footage. Ask fans of other teams(not Cowboys or Redskins) and at least 9 out of 10 will say they'd pick Sean Taylor over Roy Williams. The one guy who would Roy Williams is a Cowboys fan in disguise!

[TEK2000]

The evidence is in the videotape footage. Ask fans of other teams(not Cowboys or Redskins) and at least 9 out of 10 will say they'd pick Sean Taylor over Roy Williams. The one guy who would Roy Williams is a Cowboys fan in disguise!

Are you referring to the highlight videos? I thought we had already established the fact that players cannot be graded on highlight videos.

Where's this survey that you asked all these fans? Got results? Didnt think so.

[Skins4481]

Are you referring to the highlight videos? I thought we had already established the fact that players cannot be graded on highlight videos.

Where's this survey that you asked all these fans? Got results? Didnt think so.


No I'm not referring to highlight videos. All they establish is the fact that Sean Taylor hits harder than Roy Williams. I'm talking about watching the actual game footage.

I didnt do a survey myself but anytime a fan of another team voices in their opinion on this topic, they pick Taylor.

Here is some proof for ya...a link to an ESPN chat wrap. Check out the Roy Williams Sean Taylor question.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165692&page=1&pp=15&highlight=williamson


:dallasuck

[TEK2000]

No I'm not referring to highlight videos. All they establish is the fact that Sean Taylor hits harder than Roy Williams. I'm talking about watching the actual game footage.

I didnt do a survey myself but anytime a fan of another team voices in their opinion on this topic, they pick Taylor.

Here is some proof for ya...a link to an ESPN chat wrap. Check out the Roy Williams Sean Taylor question.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165692&page=1&pp=15&highlight=williamson


:dallasuck

Okay... that's 1 guy... you've got a long survey to go if we're going to go this slow.

How much game footage have you seen of Roy Williams over his career?

I will be honest and tell you that, living in the Dallas area, obviously I don't get much of a chance to see Redskins games outside of when the Skins/Boys play each year. SO, I don't get to see A LOT of Sean Taylor. This is EXACTLY the reason you will not find me making a ruling on who is better and what not.

This is also a reason why I happen to be on this forum. I am a big fan of Roy Williams.. I have watched him since his early seasons at Oklahoma thru every season as a Cowboy.

The constant debate between Cowboys and Redskins over who is better is, for the most part, ridiculous. The problem is that rarely does EITHER side present solid evidence to support their opinions. In most all cases, its a general statement or opinion based on hype or someone else's assessment of Roy Williams being "overrated".

In all honesty, I am just looking for legitimate, intelligent, and CIVILIZED discussion on comparing 2 GREAT SAFETIES!

If anyone cares to jump in on this, I'd love to hear the side of the KNOWLEDGABLE Sean Taylor fans.

ALTHOUGH, its not likely that we could ever come to an agreement on the topic... it would still be enlightening for both side of the discussion I'm sure.

[skins4eva]

Hey, TEK is a good guy everyone--I back him--he's here to talk football.

[skins4eva]

Okay... that's 1 guy... you've got a long survey to go if we're going to go this slow.

How much game footage have you seen of Roy Williams over his career?

I will be honest and tell you that, living in the Dallas area, obviously I don't get much of a chance to see Redskins games outside of when the Skins/Boys play each year. SO, I don't get to see A LOT of Sean Taylor. This is EXACTLY the reason you will not find me making a ruling on who is better and what not.

This is also a reason why I happen to be on this forum. I am a big fan of Roy Williams.. I have watched him since his early seasons at Oklahoma thru every season as a Cowboy.

The constant debate between Cowboys and Redskins over who is better is, for the most part, ridiculous. The problem is that rarely does EITHER side present solid evidence to support their opinions. In most all cases, its a general statement or opinion based on hype or someone else's assessment of Roy Williams being "overrated".

In all honesty, I am just looking for legitimate, intelligent, and CIVILIZED discussion on comparing 2 GREAT SAFETIES!

If anyone cares to jump in on this, I'd love to hear the side of the KNOWLEDGABLE Sean Taylor fans.

ALTHOUGH, its not likely that we could ever come to an agreement on the topic... it would still be enlightening for both side of the discussion I'm sure.

You raise a good point--not many of us watch enough dallas games to really understand the impact that RW has, which obviously is true of cowboys fans when it comes to taylor.

KC brings up an very good point often overlooked: they do not play the same position. They are both great players, but very different. You ask for stats: well, you can see the stats for yourself at espn.com, etc. The fact of the matter is that it's difficult to account for a positon like FS or even SS through stats alone. Safties these days, especially gifted ones like Taylor and RW do so many different things, that the stats are merely a jumping off point, they certainly don't give you the whole picture.

[Skins4481]

Okay... that's 1 guy... you've got a long survey to go if we're going to go this slow.

How much game footage have you seen of Roy Williams over his career?

I will be honest and tell you that, living in the Dallas area, obviously I don't get much of a chance to see Redskins games outside of when the Skins/Boys play each year. SO, I don't get to see A LOT of Sean Taylor. This is EXACTLY the reason you will not find me making a ruling on who is better and what not.

This is also a reason why I happen to be on this forum. I am a big fan of Roy Williams.. I have watched him since his early seasons at Oklahoma thru every season as a Cowboy.

The constant debate between Cowboys and Redskins over who is better is, for the most part, ridiculous. The problem is that rarely does EITHER side present solid evidence to support their opinions. In most all cases, its a general statement or opinion based on hype or someone else's assessment of Roy Williams being "overrated".

In all honesty, I am just looking for legitimate, intelligent, and CIVILIZED discussion on comparing 2 GREAT SAFETIES!

If anyone cares to jump in on this, I'd love to hear the side of the KNOWLEDGABLE Sean Taylor fans.

ALTHOUGH, its not likely that we could ever come to an agreement on the topic... it would still be enlightening for both side of the discussion I'm sure.


First of all I'm not doing a survey, at least yet. I'm just telling you what I have observed.

What the hell do you want when you say "KNOWLEDGABLE"? Less than 1% of Cowboys fans have any football knowledge and only 2% of you idiots have an IQ over 80.

Let me ask you this question: Who do you think is better: Roy Williams or Ed Reed? And why? How many Ravens games have you seen?

Being as 2 of my cousins are Cowboys fans and that they show a lot of Cowboys games in the DC area, I have seen plenty of RW. He is a good player but he is not the player Sean Taylor is. Roy Williams was really impressive in College. He was also really good his rookie and sophomore years. After that it seems as if his play has dropped off some. Maybe its the fact that he had Darren Woodson next to him. That would make anyone better. Sean Taylor had Ryan Clark. Makes Taylor look that much better.

[Skins4481]

Hey, TEK is a good guy everyone--I back him--he's here to talk football.

Yea he seems ok over here at OUR HOUSE but over at CZ he is different. Kind of like Eternal Cowboy(HeavyHitta31). At first he seemed ok but then he showed his true side. I expect the same thing from TEK2000.

[Ken]

This might be a suprise to you but Sean Taylor is ALL OVER THE FIELD. Unlike Roy Williams, he excels against BOTH the RUN and the PASS.

BTW, I think that since both players HAVE played FS(and one still does) they can be compared. Obviously, Roy Williams couldnt cut it as a FS and therefore Dallas had to move his ass to SS. Taylor can start playing SS tomorrow and do it better than Roy Williams.
Are you suggesting that FS is a more important position than SS?

Everyone in the NFL would disagree with you if you were....

[Taylor 36]

the way he answered it you know he didnt want to get in the middle of it.

:laugh: Yeah, I noticed that too.

[Dirk Diggler]

Are you suggesting that FS is a more important position than SS?

Everyone in the NFL would disagree with you if you were....

I thought it was common knowledge that FS is more important than SS? Not only are the salaries higher but there's less turnover at FS because they are harder to find. I won't even get into the technical aspects of the debate.

I would say the vast majority of coaches would rather have a great FS and mediocre SS rather than the other way around.

[dinzelwashington]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.

monday night football. santana moss.. liability??? hmmmm or is santana moss that good...

[drums and skins]

This thread reminds me of any day during the week.

Same ****, different day.


Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. They play different positions. Okay, that's fine.

But I haven't noticed much of Roy Williams flying to the ball like Taylor does in the games I've seen. Just like Polamalu...Always right there where the ball is. Its amazing how guys like this can really cover the entire field.

[Skins4481]

Are you suggesting that FS is a more important position than SS?

Everyone in the NFL would disagree with you if you were....

yes, that is EXACTLY what I'm suggesting.

[TEK2000]

This thread reminds me of any day during the week.

Same ****, different day.


Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. They play different positions. Okay, that's fine.

But I haven't noticed much of Roy Williams flying to the ball like Taylor does in the games I've seen. Just like Polamalu...Always right there where the ball is. Its amazing how guys like this can really cover the entire field.

Roy Williams has more tackles in most seasons than Sean Taylor... how are you judging "flying to the ball?"

Polamalu gets to roam the field and freelance a heck of a lot more than Taylor or Williams from what I have seen. He has more tackles than both of them... but has generated LESS turnovers than Williams or Taylor. This is exactly the reason why I think he is a little overhyped.

[skinny21]

Roy Williams has more tackles in most seasons than Sean Taylor... how are you judging "flying to the ball?"

Polamalu gets to roam the field and freelance a heck of a lot more than Taylor or Williams from what I have seen. He has more tackles than both of them... but has generated LESS turnovers than Williams or Taylor. This is exactly the reason why I think he is a little overhyped.

Williams playing the SS position, I would sincerely hope he had more tackles. I'm guessing he was talking about the "oh damn! Where the hell did he come from... did you see that?!" kind of 'flying to the ball' :2cents:

[THEHEREAFTER]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.


:doh: This will never stop will it?

[TEK2000]

First of all I'm not doing a survey, at least yet. I'm just telling you what I have observed.

What the hell do you want when you say "KNOWLEDGABLE"? Less than 1% of Cowboys fans have any football knowledge and only 2% of you idiots have an IQ over 80.

Let me ask you this question: Who do you think is better: Roy Williams or Ed Reed? And why? How many Ravens games have you seen?

Being as 2 of my cousins are Cowboys fans and that they show a lot of Cowboys games in the DC area, I have seen plenty of RW. He is a good player but he is not the player Sean Taylor is. Roy Williams was really impressive in College. He was also really good his rookie and sophomore years. After that it seems as if his play has dropped off some. Maybe its the fact that he had Darren Woodson next to him. That would make anyone better. Sean Taylor had Ryan Clark. Makes Taylor look that much better.

You expect people to take you seriously when you throw out that kind of crap? You have yet to exhibit a good knowledge of football or the ability to discuss it, yet you are quick to call 99+% of Cowboy fans football idiots. Good form :rolleyes: . Don't expect another response from me if you just want to throw idiotic comments out like that.

At this point, I lean towards Ed Reed based on his play during the previous few seasons. He certainly seems to be one of the absolute best coverage safeties. But I would rank Roy Williams higher than Reed in run support. This is a tough comparison because you're talking about Roy Williams who is one of the largest safeties versus Ed Reed one of the smaller safeties.

Roy Williams had the luxury of playing next to Darren Woodson for much of his 1st 2 seasons.. that certainly helps in his ability to focus on HIS JOB ONLY. Many times during the 2005 season, you could see Roy trying to cheat over to help take care of Keith Davis. In 2004 he was playing with Tony Dixon... who is not even in the NFL anymore. The problem is that Roy was used a lot more to his ability in his first 2 seasons... the last 2 seasons he's been playing almost exclusively in coverage due to the fact that our Free Safeties were so poor.

[THEHEREAFTER]

No you live in a fantasy world where you think Roy Williams is good

So it's a fantasy Bubba to believe that Roy Williams is just good? :(

[THEHEREAFTER]

If we're going to play the Pro Bowl card then Lito Sheppard is better than Terrence Newman.


And I'm sure you believe that DD.. pro-bowls or not.

[THEHEREAFTER]

This might be a suprise to you but Sean Taylor is ALL OVER THE FIELD. Unlike Roy Williams, he excels against BOTH the RUN and the PASS.

BTW, I think that since both players HAVE played FS(and one still does) they can be compared. Obviously, Roy Williams couldnt cut it as a FS and therefore Dallas had to move his ass to SS. Taylor can start playing SS tomorrow and do it better than Roy Williams.

Not a very smart statement considering Roy's natural position is SS. You speak as if he's a FS who was demoted to SS.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Ask fans of other teams(not Cowboys or Redskins) and at least 9 out of 10 will say they'd pick Sean Taylor over Roy Williams


This has been done, and RW keeps winning. :)

[TEK2000]

Williams playing the SS position, I would sincerely hope he had more tackles. I'm guessing he was talking about the "oh damn! Where the hell did he come from... did you see that?!" kind of 'flying to the ball' :2cents:

I wish Roy Williams got to play EXCLUSIVELY as a SS. For the most part, the FS and SS positions were interchangeable in the Dallas defense in 2005. We haven't had a ballhawking FS for the past few seasons, so Roy is often in deep coverage on passing downs.

"oh damn! Where the hell did he come from... did you see that?!" If you haven't had very many comments like that when you're watching Roy Williams play... I don't think you've seen enough of him. :) (I dont mean that as a criticism) What I mean is... there are usually several times a game where Roy will come flying from off the screen and make the tackle.

[BigRay]

This has been done, and RW keeps winning. :)


Surrrrrrrrrrrre he keeps winning :laugh:

[TEK2000]

Surrrrrrrrrrrre he keeps winning :laugh:

And you have evidence to prove otherwise?

So many people just throwing out comments without anything to support it.

[THEHEREAFTER]

You raise a good point--not many of us watch enough dallas games to really understand the impact that RW has, which obviously is true of cowboys fans when it comes to taylor.

KC brings up an very good point often overlooked: they do not play the same position. They are both great players, but very different. You ask for stats: well, you can see the stats for yourself at espn.com, etc. The fact of the matter is that it's difficult to account for a positon like FS or even SS through stats alone. Safties these days, especially gifted ones like Taylor and RW do so many different things, that the stats are merely a jumping off point, they certainly don't give you the whole picture.


:thumbsup: I think were on to something here. Most free safeties are required to and should be better cover guys than strong safeties. :2cents: People just hear the word safety and want to immediately compare. Stat-wise RW is better in every category save for passes defensed in which a free safety will more than likely lead. Most corners are superior in coverage than free safeties.. etc...

[THEHEREAFTER]

What the hell do you want when you say "KNOWLEDGABLE"? Less than 1% of Cowboys fans have any football knowledge and only 2% of you idiots have an IQ over 80.





Nice! Your credibility and intelligence shines brighter with each post.

[WeownU]

And you have evidence to prove otherwise?

So many people just throwing out comments without anything to support it.


Welcome to the board TEK. This has been debated and debated and debated to death. You will not win here. All you will get is "Roy is a liability in coverage" and "Santana beat him twice".

Nevermind the facts. You have to realize that before Taylor got to DC, the skins fans were very envious of RW. It killed them that we had a killer, hard hitting safety. So when they got a good one, they put him on a pedestal so high that he would get a nosebleed.

Nevermind all the missed tackles, problems off the field, or spitting incidents. He is Godlike, and don't you forget it.

[THEHEREAFTER]

I thought it was common knowledge that FS is more important than SS? Not only are the salaries higher but there's less turnover at FS because they are harder to find. I won't even get into the technical aspects of the debate.

I would say the vast majority of coaches would rather have a great FS and mediocre SS rather than the other way around.

Convinient, given that your guy plays FS huh? Far too many holes and speculation here to be taken seriously. You build your team around the strength of your personnel.

[THEHEREAFTER]

This thread reminds me of any day during the week.

Same ****, different day.


Lets not get too far ahead of ourselves. They play different positions. Okay, that's fine.

But I haven't noticed much of Roy Williams flying to the ball like Taylor does in the games I've seen. Just like Polamalu...Always right there where the ball is. Its amazing how guys like this can really cover the entire field.

RW flies to the ball. This is what he's built his reputation on. The bottom line is that I doubt you're watching RW in other games besides our matchups.

[The Animal Trainer]

RW flies to the ball. This is what he's built his reputation on. The bottom line is that I doubt you're watching RW in other games besides our matchups.



I don't know why cowboys fans waste their energy on this debate. Let me sum it up for you. This is Extremeskins.com, over here Sean Taylor is the better player. Go to Cowboyszone.com if you want to convince people Roy Williams is better. Its like beating a dead horse. Sean Taylor is clearly better, I've seen it with my own eyes. Go over to cowboyszone.com and you'll hear the same argument for roy. And in case you've forgotten..... :dallasuck

[THEHEREAFTER]

Welcome to the board TEK. This has been debated and debated and debated to death. You will not win here. All you will get is "Roy is a liability in coverage" and "Santana beat him twice".

Nevermind the facts. You have to realize that before Taylor got to DC, the skins fans were very envious of RW. It killed them that we had a killer, hard hitting safety. So when they got a good one, they put him on a pedestal so high that he would get a nosebleed.
Nevermind all the missed tackles, problems off the field, or spitting incidents. He is Godlike, and don't you forget it.

:laugh: :laugh:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/cowboyszone/hammer_nail.gif

[HailSkinz1]

Well, folks--he actually answered my question, but he split the baby Solomon style. This is my question btw, kinda cool.

Cliff (McLean, VA): KC--love your stuff. I'm in a big argument with a cowboys fan about who is better--Sean Taylor or Roy Williams...could you answer it for us? And which do you think will have the better season? Thanks!

KC Joyner: (4:15 PM ET ) I am not trying to split the difference but the metrics show Taylor is better at coverage and Williams is better at run support. They play different positions as well, so that makes an apples/apples comparison a bit harder.

Here's the only problem with this statement....when the D-line stuffs the RB, there is no run support needed from the Safety!

Hail,

H

[THEHEREAFTER]

Let me sum it up for you. This is Extremeskins.com, over here Sean Taylor is the better player.


Sean Taylor is clearly better, I've seen it with my own eyes.

Okay... I don't know about anyone else but know I'm convinced. Sean has to be the greatest... :laugh:

[waterwagen]

Okay... I don't know about anyone else but know I'm convinced. Sean has to be the greatest... :laugh:Looking back over the last two pages, I get the distinct feeling that a nerve has been struck. An amazing exhibition of post generation.

[Friend of the Devil]

Yes, but Taylor isn't a liability in run support, while Williams is a liability in coverage.

Exactly. Ask any RB Taylor blew up in his career that question.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Exactly. Ask any RB Taylor blew up in his career that question.


Can I also ask the RB/QB/WR/TE that RW has blown up in his career as well? :(

[THEHEREAFTER]

Looking back over the last two pages, I get the distinct feeling that a nerve has been struck. An amazing exhibition of post generation.


Naah, bored at work still and I was late to the thread. I had alot of nonsense to respond to. :)

[BigRay]

And you have evidence to prove otherwise?

So many people just throwing out comments without anything to support it.

Yes, I do.

[BigRay]

Welcome to the board TEK. This has been debated and debated and debated to death. You will not win here. All you will get is "Roy is a liability in coverage" and "Santana beat him twice".

Nevermind the facts. You have to realize that before Taylor got to DC, the skins fans were very envious of RW. It killed them that we had a killer, hard hitting safety. So when they got a good one, they put him on a pedestal so high that he would get a nosebleed.

Nevermind all the missed tackles, problems off the field, or spitting incidents. He is Godlike, and don't you forget it.


Oh wait a minute now let's not go there about problems off the field. You have no room to talk.



What you constitute as hard hitter is not an hard hitter .he's a horse collar yeah, I can see why we're are enivious :rolleyes:

[TEK2000]

Yes, I do.

Good for you. I guess that's one way to rack up post counts.. post uselessly.

[TEK2000]

Oh wait a minute now let's not go there about problems off the field. You have no room to talk.



What you constitute as hard hitter is not an hard hitter .he's a horse collar yeah, I can see why we're are enivious :rolleyes:

Yep.. that's why Roy Williams only had ONE penalty on him all season. He sure was horse collaring the heck out of people ALL SEASON!

[The Animal Trainer]

Okay... I don't know about anyone else but know I'm convinced. Sean has to be the greatest... :laugh:


I was tying to make a point that you're wasting your time here on Extremeskins.com telling everyone how Roy Williams is the better player. In my opinion, and about 99% of this message board's opinion, Sean Taylor is better. When I say, "he's the better player, I've seen it with my own eyes" I'm not trying to use that as objective evidence to convince you of my opinion. I am merely using that to demonstrate my point. This topic has been covered about 23,458,873 times on this board and it ends with a stalemate every time.

Your sarcasm and # of posts in this thread doesn't make Roy any better in anyone's eyes. This is just as useless a topic here as it would be over at cowboyszone.com. 99% of the posters there would say the same thing I've said but reverse the players' names. If you beat a dead horse 3 times or 100 times, like you're doing here, its the same result. In conclusion, we swept you last season...so Sean Taylor is better. ;)

[SackMachine]

Put this discussion to rest already, they are both good safeties and they both hit hard. Both have had contreversial plays (horse collar, spitting). The only difference is ST is better at coverage then RW but RW is an SS and coverage isnt what hes asked to do.

The only way we can settle this is if we have them both stand at both sides of the field and run into each other, whoever is still concious, better yet, alive, wins.

Fact is if RW played for any other team, alot of us would think hes a top notch safety, and if ST played any other team, boys fan would think of him as a top notch safety.

[BigRay]

Good for you. I guess that's one way to rack up post counts.. post uselessly.


Everything cowboy fan posts in here is useless so STFU

[DaSkinzBaby]

See, it's impossible to compare them. Let's just save ourselves years of our lives and just admit that BOTH of these players are very good.

Um....your 15 and you are yet to mature, so your opinion isn't taken with much regard. Shawn Taylor is a game changing player, while Roy Williams is nothing but a collar tackler that had a few good hits, as fat as he is he should get an occasional hard hit. Even your version of God, Bill MAN TIT Parcells admitted that he is a biscuit away from being a linebacker :D Anyone that can't see Taylor is clearly better is in denial or can't see, besides how long has Roy I Love to Horse Collar Tackle Williams been in the league? and how long has Taylor? :doh: Instead of trying to get people to admit they are BOTH very good, Williams is OKAY while Taylor is a HOF Safety in the making ask TO and Glenn..... :silly:

[THEHEREAFTER]

In conclusion, we swept you last season...so Sean Taylor is better. ;)


and I was actually starting to believe that you were making sense...... Brilliant! :rolleyes:

[Dirk Diggler]

Convinient, given that your guy plays FS huh? Far too many holes and speculation here to be taken seriously. You build your team around the strength of your personnel.

I wonder why Ronnie Lott settled in at FS after a few years at SS...

The difference between SS and FS on some teams is like the difference between LT and RT: you're just going against a better caliber opponent and you have to defend more ground. On other teams the two positions are interchangable. But as RW discovered, there's nothing interchangable about it if you're a player who has limited coverage capabilities. I said it before and I'll say it again: there are two many "ifs" with Roy's game if you want him to be at his best...He has to play the strong side, he has to have healthy CBs, he can't cover WRs one on one. Getting exposed in intermediate areas by TEs is a lot less damaging than getting exposed deep by WRs. On the other hand, there are no limits to Taylor's game. Taylor could play both SS and FS at an incredibly high level but MOST teams would play him at free because it's just more important to team defense. I have no doubt that Taylor would put up phenomenal #s at SS but it's more important to this team's defense to have a great FS.

INTs and FFs are only some kinds of #s though. But what about the coverage sacks or incompletions caused by being a superior coverage safety? Or the footsteps WRs are hearing even 40 yards down the field? Those aren't plays? WRs may look for RW in the first 15-20 yards but once they get deep they know that they are in the clear.

A player like Taylor allows you to change the whole complexion of your defense. He frees up other players to blitz more and dictate to the offense. Just look at Ed Reed. For years he played SS/rover because that a allowed for him to be around the ball more and because they had a solid FS in Will Demps. But as soon as that FS spot became uncertain, he moved there. It will cost him #s but the defense will be better than if he stayed at SS.

[BigDFan5]

Yeah, and how did he do? :laugh:


Was Roy anywhere close to Sean's level? Would you think that Taylor couldn't do everything that Roy does as a SS and do it better?


Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

[BigDFan5]

I wonder why Ronnie Lott settled in at FS after a few years at SS...



Its funny you mention Lott, since when he was asked who reminded him most of himself he replied Roy Williams


When I asked him if there is anyone he watches on Sundays that reminds him of himself, he said, "I like to grab my popcorn and watch Roy Williams play the game."

I can't think of a better football honor than to know Ronnie Lott liked to watch me play. How lucky you are, Roy Williams!

link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8564100)

[ArmchairRedskin]

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok



To be a good Free Safety you have to be good in coverage. In 2004 when he was forced to play a lot of coverage, he struggled. His All Pro honors came in 2003 and he played close to the LOS most of the time.


Here's what I honestly think.

You put Sean Taylor in Dallas and have him play Roy's postion, he would excel.

Conversely, I think if you put RW in our defense and have him play ST's postion, he would fail.

Sean has all the tools to succeed at SS, whereas RW doesn't have the coverage skills to excel at FS. There's no way you have Roy on guys like TO, Jerry Porter, Chad Johnson or Randy Moss in man coverage. He'd lose his lunch out there.

[Dirk Diggler]

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

Roy Williams has never been All-pro.

EDIT: My bad - I thought it was Dawkins and Harrison that year.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Um....your 15 and you are yet to mature, so your opinion isn't taken with much regard. Shawn Taylor is a game changing player, while Roy Williams is nothing but a collar tackler that had a few good hits, as fat as he is he should get an occasional hard hit. Even your version of God, Bill MAN TIT Parcells admitted that he is a biscuit away from being a linebacker :D Anyone that can't see Taylor is clearly better is in denial or can't see, besides how long has Roy I Love to Horse Collar Tackle Williams been in the league? and how long has Taylor? :doh: Instead of trying to get people to admit they are BOTH very good, Williams is OKAY while Taylor is a HOF Safety in the making ask TO and Glenn..... :silly:


Please tell me you're 15 and not 40? :(

[Skins4481]

You expect people to take you seriously when you throw out that kind of crap? You have yet to exhibit a good knowledge of football or the ability to discuss it, yet you are quick to call 99+% of Cowboy fans football idiots. Good form :rolleyes: . Don't expect another response from me if you just want to throw idiotic comments out like that.

At this point, I lean towards Ed Reed based on his play during the previous few seasons. He certainly seems to be one of the absolute best coverage safeties. But I would rank Roy Williams higher than Reed in run support. This is a tough comparison because you're talking about Roy Williams who is one of the largest safeties versus Ed Reed one of the smaller safeties.

Roy Williams had the luxury of playing next to Darren Woodson for much of his 1st 2 seasons.. that certainly helps in his ability to focus on HIS JOB ONLY. Many times during the 2005 season, you could see Roy trying to cheat over to help take care of Keith Davis. In 2004 he was playing with Tony Dixon... who is not even in the NFL anymore. The problem is that Roy was used a lot more to his ability in his first 2 seasons... the last 2 seasons he's been playing almost exclusively in coverage due to the fact that our Free Safeties were so poor.


I throw out that kind of crap because I've had bad experiences with a bunch of jackasses from any Cowboys board I've been to. I agree the IQ thing was a bit too much but EVERY board I've been to (CZ, ESPN) I've encountered a rather large number of jackass Cowboys fans. EASILY more than any other team. I also dont care what you think about my knowledge of football. Its kind of funny when you say that, seeing as you have displayed next to nothing in terms of football knowledge.

Roy Williams' best years were his first two when he had a good Safety in Darren Woodson playing next to him. Your making excuses for Roy Williams. He was great when he had Woodson next to him. Well guess what? Sean Taylor NEVER has had the luxury of playing with a Safety of Woodson's caliber. He has played alongside Ryan Clark, an UDFA who the Giants(with their :pooh: secondary) cut.

[Skins4481]

Not a very smart statement considering Roy's natural position is SS. You speak as if he's a FS who was demoted to SS.

Werent you the one who made that pretty stupid statement comparing Sean Taylor being picked 5th OVERALL to Pat Watkins being picked in the 5th ROUND? Yea you should know plenty about 'not very smart' statements. :rolleyes:

[Skins4481]

This has been done, and RW keeps winning. :)

We both know that's bull****. Why dont we put up a poll and see who wins? And no Cowboys or Redskins fans obviously.

[THEHEREAFTER]

[QUOTE]The difference between SS and FS on some teams is like the difference between LT and RT: you're just going against a better caliber opponent and you have to defend more ground. On other teams the two positions are interchangable.

I'm sorry but this just makes absolutely no sense. You're trying to hard to make a point.


But as RW discovered, there's nothing interchangable about it if you're a player who has limited coverage capabilities.

RW's limited coverage capabilities are a myth and a legend on extremeskins. Did you see his int. in deep in coverage vs. Carolina last year? Of course not! Do you watch every play of every Cowboy game? All you have are two plays against your team in which he shared responsibility for two long passes against one of the faster receivers in the league. RW is not the best cover safety but he's hardly the "liability," that you continue to fall back on, according to those who watch his every play including KC Joyner. What you fail to realize is that it's possible to have such an impact based on your strengths to a point where this may supersede areas where one might be average. For example, Lawrence Taylor is one of the best OLB to play the game but I'm sure you can find several better in coverage.


I said it before and I'll say it again: there are two many "ifs" with Roy's game if you want him to be at his best...He has to play the strong side

It's smart to take advantage of his strengths and put him in a position to succeed? RW, John Lynch, Steve Atwater. They're (were) all damn good strong safeties. This is where they're best.



he has to have healthy CBs

What?

:(
, he can't cover WRs one on one.

Peyton Manning wont rush for 100 yards either.. :rolleyes:



Taylor could play both SS and FS at an incredibly high level but MOST teams would play him at free because it's just more important to team defense.

Interesting? I happen to think that all 11 positions on a defense are very important. I've seen dominating defenses who's strength was their front 7 with an adequate secondary. Every team has role players. You're not going to have pro-bowl talent at every defensive position but by your logic the most talented piece of EVERY secondary is and should be the FS? I'm sure you can't fathom a defense with a menacing dominant SS with merely an adequate "role playing" "centerfielding" FS?


I have no doubt that Taylor would put up phenomenal #s at SS but it's more important to this team's defense to have a great FS.

And... so what. .. the skins will do what's best for them.. Perhaps Brian Urlacher should be moved to FREE SAFETY since he's the most talented player on the Bears D. Maybe then he'll become more important? :doh: I have a hunch that if GW announced tommorow that he's playing Taylor at SS, you'd do more peddling and spinning than Greg LaMond.


WRs may look for RW in the first 15-20 yards but once they get deep they know that they are in the clear.

Okay so I'm assuming that you've played WR against RW or personally interviewed those who have? I'm 25 yards down the field now! RW can't possibly hit me now? I've never seen a huge RW hit more than 20 yards down the field? Get Real! :rolleyes:


A player like Taylor allows you to change the whole complexion of your defense. He frees up other players to blitz more and dictate to the offense.

I agree. It's great to have a good FS. RW will be the one blitzing though at SS. The one blitzing has to get the sack which is also important right? You see how different players do different things because they excell at different positions? Do you understand how all 11 players RELY and feed off one another?


Just look at Ed Reed. For years he played SS/rover because that a allowed for him to be around the ball more and because they had a solid FS in Will Demps. But as soon as that FS spot became uncertain, he moved there. It will cost him #s but the defense will be better than if he stayed at SS.


Ed Reed is better suited to play FS.

[THEHEREAFTER]

We both know that's bull****. Why dont we put up a poll and see who wins? And no Cowboys or Redskins fans obviously.

There's a poll done at the end of every year. Something tells me that if ST ever makes a pro-bowl it won't be due to popularity?

[Skins4481]

And you have evidence to prove otherwise?

So many people just throwing out comments without anything to support it.

I already showed you one evidence where a football analyst picked Sean Taylor over Roy Williams.

Oh by the way, I have evidence of a non-skins or boys fan who believes Sean Taylor is the "biggest hitting DB in the game."

http://www.fantasysportstrades.com/nfls-best-defensive-player-2k5-troy-polamalu/

[THEHEREAFTER]

Werent you the one who made that pretty stupid statement comparing Sean Taylor being picked 5th OVERALL to Pat Watkins being picked in the 5th ROUND? Yea you should know plenty about 'not very smart' statements. :rolleyes:


Ummm, I have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts straight or go and find the quote genius? :rolleyes:

[Skins4481]

There's a poll done at the end of every year. Something tells me that if ST ever makes a pro-bowl it won't be due to popularity?

Not as much as it will if Roy Williams does. The Cowboys are the most popular team in America. One reason why they are called America's team. They also get a lot of attention from the media. Since the Cowboys are the more popular team, their good players gain a lot of popularity.

[Skins4481]

Ummm, I have no idea what you're talking about. Get your facts straight or go and find the quote genius? :rolleyes:

If that truely wasnt you then I apologize. I've mistaken you for another Cowboys fan who made that stupid comparison.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Not as much as it will if Roy Williams does. The Cowboys are the most popular team in America. One reason why they are called America's team. They also get a lot of attention from the media. Since the Cowboys are the more popular team, their good players gain a lot of popularity.

I won't argue this but of course you can see some of the holes in your theory. You've atleast stated that he's good though so where getting somewhere. RW is simply a game changer. He causes turnovers, terrorizes and intimidates all over the field. There are alot of Cowboys that would have made pro-bowls if it were as easy as simply donning a star on your helmet.

[THEHEREAFTER]

If that truely wasnt you then I apologize. I've mistaken you for another Cowboys fan who made that stupid comparison.


Watkins vs. Taylor? That's not even worth discussing. Please understand that in all of this discussion, I like ST. I just find it funny debating this with skins fans knowing full well that they would embrace RW in a hearbeat if he was your SS tomorrow. It is very important for skins fans for ST to be better than RW as WOU explained earlier in the thread. ST HAS to be better. If RW was moved to LB these comparison debates would be just as intense and just as redundant.

[Skins4481]

I won't argue this but of course you can see some of the holes in your theory. You've atleast stated that he's good though so where getting somewhere. RW is simply a game changer. He causes turnovers, terrorizes and intimidates all over the field. There are alot of Cowboys that would have made pro-bowls if it were as easy as simply donning a star on your helmet.

I never said Roy Williams WASNT good. This is not the discussion we're having here. Roy Williams is a real good safety. Definitely one of the better ones in the league.

The discussion here is about who is the better player. I honestly believe that Sean Taylor is the better player. The way I look at it is like this: Sean Taylor can do everything Roy Williams can do and more but Roy Williams CAN NOT do everything Sean Taylor can do.

[Skins4481]

Watkins vs. Taylor? That's not even worth discussing. Please understand that in all of this discussion, I like ST. I just find it funny debating this with skins fans knowing full well that they would embrace RW in a hearbeat if he was your SS tomorrow. It is very important for skins fans for ST to be better than RW as WOU explained earlier in the thread. ST HAS to be better. If RW was moved to LB these comparison debates would be just as intense and just as redundant.

Honest to god, there is no way in hell I would 'embrace' RW on the Redskins. I would of course still root for my team but not RW. Of course if he were a Redskin, his success would equal success for my team and I will be happy for that but thats about it.

BTW, while we're at this subject, have you embraced TO? Were you one of the 10,000(or something like that) who bought his jersey in the first week he signed with you guys? I am asking this because I just can not understand how someone who was so hated by Cowboys fans and who dissed the Cowboys logo on numerous occasions be embraced by a lot of Cowboys fans. Cheering for the team is one thing. Buying #81 jerseys at record numbers is another.

[THEHEREAFTER]

I never said Roy Williams WASNT good. This is not the discussion we're having here. Roy Williams is a real good safety. Definitely one of the better ones in the league.

You do realize that you're in the minority of skins fans right? Most, especially hereat es, don't acknowledge him as even average. Your very own Bubba has clearly stated that Adam Archuletta is the superior SS.


The discussion here is about who is the better player. I honestly believe that Sean Taylor is the better player. The way I look at it is like this: Sean Taylor can do everything Roy Williams can do and more but Roy Williams CAN NOT do everything Sean Taylor can do.

Only if it were that easy when comparing two different players, with different games, on different teams playing different positions with different responsibilities. I won't deny Taylors versatility but RW is ALOT better in coverage than you ASSUME.

[THEHEREAFTER]

Honest to god, there is no way in hell I would 'embrace' RW on the Redskins. I would of course still root for my team but not RW. Of course if he were a Redskin, his success would equal success for my team and I will be happy for that but thats about it.

I can respect that but the statement was made moreso with the assumption that RW was never a Cowboy but the SAME player. Think he might be the man in that scenario?


BTW, while we're at this subject, have you embraced TO? Were you one of the 10,000(or something like that) who bought his jersey in the first week he signed with you guys? I am asking this because I just can not understand how someone who was so hated by Cowboys fans and who dissed the Cowboys logo on numerous occasions be embraced by a lot of Cowboys fans. Cheering for the team is one thing. Buying #81 jerseys at record numbers is another.

I see your point and for the record NO, I haven't purchased a T.O. jersey and don't plan on it. I happen to be very particular about purchasing jersey's but I don't necessarily fault the Cowboys fans that are excited enough to buy T.O. jerseys... just not my style. The whole T.O. thing is pretty simple. I'm a fan of the Cowboys and he's now a Cowboy. I believe he's a great passionate player who can help my team win. He also happens to be an idiot but I'm willing to try to tolerate that as long as he cooperates enough to where I'm satisfied.

[Skins4481]

I'll respond tomorrow. I'm going to sleep now :)

[Dirk Diggler]

I'm sorry but this just makes absolutely no sense. You're trying to hard to make a point.

It's a parallel analogy.

The point is that a left tackle has to be more gifted and is deemed more important because he has the tougher assignment. They have to defend against a team's best pass rusher (RE) often without TE help. RTs can have TE help and get to defend against the stronger but slower LE. It's also often in a more congested area of the field limiting the amount of space the end has to rush in. (I.e. the FS often has to cover more space and is more likely to be matched up against the tougher opponent - the WR. SSs often end up covering intermediate zones and/or TEs. These aren't steadfast rules but they are commonplace.)


RW's limited coverage capabilities are a myth and a legend on extremeskins. Did you see his int. in deep in coverage vs. Carolina last year? Of course not! Do you watch every play of every Cowboy game? All you have are two plays against your team in which he shared responsibility for two long passes against one of the faster receivers in the league. RW is not the best cover safety but he's hardly the "liability," that you continue to fall back on, according to those who watch his every play including KC Joyner. What you fail to realize is that it's possible to have such an impact based on your strengths to a point where this may supersede areas where one might be average. For example, Lawrence Taylor is one of the best OLB to play the game but I'm sure you can find several better in coverage.

You really have no clue "what I have." I'm well aware of KC Joyner - I have his last 2 books. I exchange emails with him. And I'm even quoted on his website so :silly:

The LT example is hideous on a number of fronts but I'll just go here...

When a team drops back to pass, the safeties are in coverage every time unless they are blitzing. I'd say that's over 92% of the time - probably more. An OLB like LT in coverage probably 15% of the time on passing downs. So Taylor's average coverage skills are a helluva a lot less meaningful than a SS with average coverage skills.

For the record, I don't consider Williams coverage skills average - just limited. There's a difference. He has limited range - which is why he stuggles at the FS. Taylor is not limited in any way shape or form. This is what gives him the nod over Williams. If Taylor was just decent against the run then RW would have an advantage. But Taylor is just as good against the run.


You're not going to have pro-bowl talent at every defensive position but by your logic the most talented piece of EVERY secondary is and should be the FS? I'm sure you can't fathom a defense with a menacing dominant SS with merely an adequate "role playing" "centerfielding" FS?

I can. It was the case in New England from 2003-2004. I'm just not convinced that Belicheck wouldn't have jumped at the chance for the reverse. Actually, he called Sean Taylor the best player in 2004 draft but that's another story. And I Didn't say FS was most important in the secondary. It's just the more important of the safety positions. It's also imperative for pressure defenses like Philly, Wash, and Baltimore.


And... so what. .. the skins will do what's best for them.. Perhaps Brian Urlacher should be moved to FREE SAFETY since he's the most talented player on the Bears D. Maybe then he'll become more important? :doh: I have a hunch that if GW announced tommorow that he's playing Taylor at SS, you'd do more peddling and spinning than Greg LaMond.

Nope - i would just admit I was wrong about the value he places on the FS position. Wouldn't be the first time I admitted I was wrong on this site. But I wouldn't hold your breath on this one.

[AdamJT13]

Funny how this thread has more than 100 posts and not one of them mentions that the original post skipped part of K.C. Joyner's chat --



Jeremy (nyc): Who is the best overall safety in the league? Sean Taylor? Ed Reed? Brian Dawkins? Roy Williams?? Someone else...???

SportsNation KC Joyner: Tough call with mixing FS and SS. I happen to think Dawkins is the best FS and Williams the best SS. Dawkins metrics were down a bit last year but not as much as his fellow secondary members. Williams is an absolute force against the run, which is usually more important for a SS than how he covers.

[WeownU]

Jeremy (nyc): Who is the best overall safety in the league? Sean Taylor? Ed Reed? Brian Dawkins? Roy Williams?? Someone else...???

SportsNation KC Joyner: Tough call with mixing FS and SS. I happen to think Dawkins is the best FS and Williams the best SS. Dawkins metrics were down a bit last year but not as much as his fellow secondary members. Williams is an absolute force against the run, which is usually more important for a SS than how he covers.


Well there you have it. Dawkins is the best FS, and Williams is the best SS.

ST is somewhere below them. End of thread.

See you all in the next ST vs RW thread. Should be in a couple days.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Well there you have it. Dawkins is the best FS, and Williams is the best SS.

ST is somewhere below them. End of thread.

See you all in the next ST vs RW thread. Should be in a couple days.



A swing and a miss.

[TEK2000]

I already showed you one evidence where a football analyst picked Sean Taylor over Roy Williams.

Oh by the way, I have evidence of a non-skins or boys fan who believes Sean Taylor is the "biggest hitting DB in the game."

http://www.fantasysportstrades.com/nfls-best-defensive-player-2k5-troy-polamalu/

Wow.. you now have 3 people to site from your "survey". So, you've got 2 guys (1 being a sports analyst that I've never heard of, and now the other being some fantasy football guy that claims Polamalu is the best safety in the league). We have RONNIE LOTT.

Do you actually believe the rest of the crap that article says?

Polamalu the best Defensive player of the year?

I guess since you are siting that article to be "TRUTH" we're having this discussion for nothing because apparently:

The 5′10″ 212 Polynesian pummler out of USC has already made a name for himself as the NFL’s best safety.

Yeah.. there aren't any holes in that story. In all seriousness... that is the dumbest article I have ever seen try to make a case stating that Polamalu is the best.

[BigDFan5]

Roy Williams has never been All-pro.

EDIT: My bad - I thought it was Dawkins and Harrison that year.

Thanks for the edit, some wouldnt have done that :)

[Playoffsorbust2005]

He rated Williams 14th in passing yardage giving up by a safety


wonder how well taylor rates in run support.... I can't believe it is that low, he makes so many tackles at the LOS

Point well made, I've never seen ST out of position on the run D.

HTTR!!

[Playoffsorbust2005]

Again.. you're spewing an opinion without any supporting evidence.

I'm sure we'll dig up some clips of ST's greatness. Meanwhile stop spewing your cowgirl opinion on OUR skins board.
:dallasuck

[Playoffsorbust2005]

This has been done, and RW keeps winning. :)

And you have proof of this??? Riiiight!! :dallasuck :dallasuck :dallasuck

[Playoffsorbust2005]

Umm Roy made the Pro Bowl, and All pro at FS. I would say he done ok

Yeah, well, Dan Patrick was quoted last year that Brunell should be in the Pro Bowl, and wasn't picked. Instead Michael Vick went. And his passing yards were WAY less than Brunell's. Roy made the Pro-Bowl b/c of NAME recognition. Pure and simple. Sean Taylor had better stats last year than Roy, but Roy went. Figure that out junior.

:dallasuck :dallasuck :dallasuck :applause: :cheers: :2cents: :wewantd:

[Skins4481]

Wow.. you now have 3 people to site from your "survey". So, you've got 2 guys (1 being a sports analyst that I've never heard of, and now the other being some fantasy football guy that claims Polamalu is the best safety in the league). We have RONNIE LOTT.

Do you actually believe the rest of the crap that article says?

Polamalu the best Defensive player of the year?

I guess since you are siting that article to be "TRUTH" we're having this discussion for nothing because apparently:


Yeah.. there aren't any holes in that story. In all seriousness... that is the dumbest article I have ever seen try to make a case stating that Polamalu is the best.


I never created a 'survey'. That's a pretty stupid remark for you to make. I said that IF we ask fans of other teams who they'd rather have, much mroe would pick Taylor over Williams. I also said that I have seen fans of other teams(in one of the MANY RW vs ST threads) pick Taylor of RW. Once again, I never claimed to make a survey.

You asked me for evidence of fans picking Taylor over Williams. Unfortunately, I dont bookmark everything I read on the internet so I dont have any saved links to those posts. I did, however, post a couple of links. One of them was by a football analyst who picked Taylor over Williams and the other guy felt that Sean Taylor was the hardest hitting DB in the game.

Also RONNIE LOTT didnt say Roy Williams reminds him of himself. He said he enjoys watching him play. Big difference. But someone as smart as you would know that. :rolleyes:

No I dont believe that Polamalu is the best Defensive Player. That is not the point. In that guys opinion he is. That is his opinion and for you to call his article dumb for him stating his opinion is kinda ****ed up. So I guess if someone doesnt agree with you then you have to be dumb huh?

I also dont know what the hell you're talking about when you say "TRUTH". You asked for evidence of other people picking Taylor over Williams. I did. What do you do? Talk :pooh: about the guy's article because he doesnt agree with you. Nice.

By the way, its CITE not SITE. I was CITING a source NOT SITING a source(whatever the hell that means). But I'm sure you already knew that, smart guy.

[The Animal Trainer]

Wow...now I see how THEHEREAFTER is up to over 2,000 posts, he's trying to win this debate via filibuster. Roy Williams is a good SS, he would be a bad FS. Sean Taylor is a great FS and he would be a great SS. According to Parcells, Roy Williams is one biscut away from being a linebacker. Roy plays great around the line of scrimage, Taylor can do that too but he's more valuable in the open field, dominating players like T.O., Randy Moss, and Chad Johnson and making players like Terry Glenn, Crayton and Pinkston not even want to go near the ball. The fact is, Taylor covers a lot more ground and is a better ball hawk than Williams. He could hang around the line of scrimage and play more run support, but we have linebackers for that. If you asked Roy to do what Taylor does, he would be exposed. Ask Taylor to do what Roy does and he's punishing runningbacks and racking up sacks just like your boy, probably better. There's no question who's better in coverage and who the better all around athlete is. Comparing FS to SS can be like apples to oranges in some defensive systems. All I'm saying is Taylor can do what Roy does when he's asked to. Roy can't do what Taylor does.

[THEHEREAFTER]

And you have proof of this??? Riiiight!! :dallasuck :dallasuck :dallasuck

It's called the Pro-Bowl. Where players, coaches and fans vote... Happens every year. The players get to go to Hawaii. :(

[THEHEREAFTER]

Wow...now I see how THEHEREAFTER is up to over 2,000 posts, he's trying to win this debate via filibuster.

:laugh: :rolleyes: I do this for fun and I was well over 2,000 posts before I entered this silly debate thank you! :laugh: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:






Roy Williams is a good SS, he would be a bad FS. Sean Taylor is a great FS and he would be a great SS. According to Parcells, Roy Williams is one biscut away from being a linebacker.

Parcells made that comment as Roy entered his second year in the league because of his size. Since then, RW has mantained his conditioning and is a team leader. Roy is an OUTSTANDING SS and technically we don't know how Taylor would fair for an entire season at SS because he HASN'T DONE IT in the NFL. Meanwhile, RW has made the Pro-Bowl at both positions. :cool: The job of FS calls for a different skillset but lets not pretend that both positions aren't important? Blowing up running plays, blitzing, covering TE's etc. requires a superior athlete as well.


Roy plays great around the line of scrimage, Taylor can do that too but he's more valuable in the open field, dominating players like T.O., Randy Moss, and Chad Johnson and making players like Terry Glenn, Crayton and Pinkston not even want to go near the ball. For the record, does he really dominate these players? Taylor is an outstanding athlete but he's not covering these receivers one on one for a sustained period of time. Crayton and Glenn have both scored right over Sean Taylor. Ease up on the exaggeration pal will ya?



The fact is, Taylor covers a lot more ground and is a better ball hawk than Williams.

True, as he should at FS.



He could hang around the line of scrimage and play more run support, but we have linebackers for that.

So what is Archuletta's job? Perhaps the position of SS should be done away with? :(



If you asked Roy to do what Taylor does, he would be exposed. Ask Taylor to do what Roy does and he's punishing runningbacks and racking up sacks just like your boy, probably better.

Roy has played FS and held his own and you're once again speculating on ST as a SS?

There's no question who's better in coverage and who the better all around athlete is.

Agreed. ST has the edge in coverage and he's an outstanding athlete. RW is just a damn good football player.


Comparing FS to SS can be like apples to oranges in some defensive systems. All I'm saying is Taylor can do what Roy does when he's asked to. Roy can't do what Taylor does.

Once again, very subjective given that they're asked to do different things on different teams and play different positions. :cool: Funny how don't factor leadership into this equation.

[BigDFan5]

Yeah, well, Dan Patrick was quoted last year that Brunell should be in the Pro Bowl, and wasn't picked. Instead Michael Vick went. And his passing yards were WAY less than Brunell's. Roy made the Pro-Bowl b/c of NAME recognition. Pure and simple.

I notice you did not reply about the All Pro bid, just the pro bowl. All pro is not name recognition at all.



Sean Taylor had better stats last year than Roy, but Roy went. Figure that out junior.

Maybe you should look again

Roy had more tackles, more sacks, more INT's, More forced fumbles, more TD's. The only stats Taylor was better in was passes defensed where he led 10-7

So what exactly were you saying again junior?

[TEK2000]

I never created a 'survey'. That's a pretty stupid remark for you to make. I said that IF we ask fans of other teams who they'd rather have, much mroe would pick Taylor over Williams. I also said that I have seen fans of other teams(in one of the MANY RW vs ST threads) pick Taylor of RW. Once again, I never claimed to make a survey.

You asked me for evidence of fans picking Taylor over Williams. Unfortunately, I dont bookmark everything I read on the internet so I dont have any saved links to those posts. I did, however, post a couple of links. One of them was by a football analyst who picked Taylor over Williams and the other guy felt that Sean Taylor was the hardest hitting DB in the game.

Also RONNIE LOTT didnt say Roy Williams reminds him of himself. He said he enjoys watching him play. Big difference. But someone as smart as you would know that. :rolleyes:

No I dont believe that Polamalu is the best Defensive Player. That is not the point. In that guys opinion he is. That is his opinion and for you to call his article dumb for him stating his opinion is kinda ****ed up. So I guess if someone doesnt agree with you then you have to be dumb huh?

I also dont know what the hell you're talking about when you say "TRUTH". You asked for evidence of other people picking Taylor over Williams. I did. What do you do? Talk :pooh: about the guy's article because he doesnt agree with you. Nice.

By the way, its CITE not SITE. I was CITING a source NOT SITING a source(whatever the hell that means). But I'm sure you already knew that, smart guy.

The survey conversation goes a few pages back... you said 9 out of 10 and I asked for the SURVEY results to your statement.

I believe Ronnie Lott did say that of the safeties in the NFL today.. Roy Williams most reminds him of himself. Like you, I don't bookmark everything either... but I did read this from someone quoting a radio interview done by some guys on Sirius or XM interviewing Ronnie Lott.

By the way, now that I think about it.. that article doesn't really serve your purpose. The guy says he's the hardest hitter... it doesn't say anything about that he WOULD CHOOSE Taylor over Williams.

And no.. just because someone doesn't agree with me doesn't mean its stupid. Its dumb because he's basing his argument on stats that ARE NOT the best in the NFL, size of players, and 40 yard dash times. Do you really think that's the best way to prove a point on who the best safety in the NFL is?

HAHA.. you caught a misspelled word... good for you... want a cookie? How about you drop the intelligence insults... otherwise, it just shows that you're incapable of making a post without having to attack the person you're directing your post at.

[BigDFan5]

Also RONNIE LOTT didnt say Roy Williams reminds him of himself. He said he enjoys watching him play. Big difference. But someone as smart as you would know that.

Not real good with this whole honesty thing are you?

Here is the exact quote

link (http://www.nfl.com/news/story/8564100)

When I asked him if there is anyone he watches on Sundays that reminds him of himself, he said, "I like to grab my popcorn and watch Roy Williams play the game."

[TEK2000]

Wow...now I see how THEHEREAFTER is up to over 2,000 posts, he's trying to win this debate via filibuster. Roy Williams is a good SS, he would be a bad FS. Sean Taylor is a great FS and he would be a great SS. According to Parcells, Roy Williams is one biscut away from being a linebacker. Roy plays great around the line of scrimage, Taylor can do that too but he's more valuable in the open field, dominating players like T.O., Randy Moss, and Chad Johnson and making players like Terry Glenn, Crayton and Pinkston not even want to go near the ball. The fact is, Taylor covers a lot more ground and is a better ball hawk than Williams. He could hang around the line of scrimage and play more run support, but we have linebackers for that. If you asked Roy to do what Taylor does, he would be exposed. Ask Taylor to do what Roy does and he's punishing runningbacks and racking up sacks just like your boy, probably better. There's no question who's better in coverage and who the better all around athlete is. Comparing FS to SS can be like apples to oranges in some defensive systems. All I'm saying is Taylor can do what Roy does when he's asked to. Roy can't do what Taylor does.

Sean Taylor is listed as weighing MORE than Roy Williams............

When has he dominated those players? In all the highlight videos I've seen of Taylor... it shows Taylor hitting TO out of bounds or throwing an elbow into TO's chin. It doesn't show him breaking up any pass plays with TO.
Against Randy Moss... there are 2 plays in particular that are routinely shown in Taylor's highlight videos.
http://www.bnbathletics.com/downloads/taylorvsmoss2.gifhttp://www.bnbathletics.com/downloads/taylorvsmoss1.gif
Notice that in BOTH plays.. Randy Moss almost COMPLETELY STOPS in order to catch the ball. This indicates the fact that if the ball were thrown worth a crap on EITHER of these plays.. its a reception. In the first play, if the ball is thrown LEADING Moss, it would definitely appear that Moss would make the catch. On the 2nd play, if the ball was not so HORRIBLY UNDERTHROWN, Moss would appear to prance into the endzone. The fact is that Taylor only gains ground on Moss and makes the play because the pass is severely underthrown.

Is there any video footage of Taylor covering Chad Johnson available?

Who doesn't make Todd Pinkston flinch? Todd Pinkston has been Roy Williams punk on several occassions. And yes, Terry Glenn flinched on that one play... I would too cuz Taylor is a hard hitter. And yes, Crayton got popped good on that 1 play... but I haven't ever seen where Crayton was clearly more worried about Taylor than catching the ball.

What are you basing the "Taylor covers more ground" on? Their 40 yard dash times coming out of college were almost identical (Roy Williams' being .01 seconds faster)

Roy Williams did pretty much the same thing as Taylor did last season... too many of you think Roy Williams is like Polamalu and just hanging out anywhere on the field and most toward the line of scrimmage. For almost the entire season, Roy Williams WAS IN COVERAGE. Our FS Keith Davis is not capable of playing the center of the field all on his own... therefore, Roy played in coverage A LOT to help Keith.
He is NOT a liability in coverage like you all think....And I quote:

"Roy Williams does not deserve all of the criticism he receives for his poor pass coverage. His Stop Rate of 43% ranked 6th among all safeties involved in at least 40 passing plays. Williams' biggest problem in pass coverage is that he gets little help from Keith Davis" - 2006 Pro Football Prospectus

How many Cowboys games have you watched to see Roy Williams' play over the past 4 years?

(note: ALL questions in this post are made in all seriousness and NOT as sarcasm.)

[ArmchairRedskin]

Here's the Chad Johnson highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X8Oi-KneXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp4MYa8GoVI

[The Animal Trainer]

My roommate is a die hard dallas cowboys fan. We have NFL Sunday ticket so I can see all the skins games and he can see all the cowboys games. When they don't air at the same time, I watch the cowboys games with him and root against your boys. In fact, there is a damn Roy Williams authentic jersey framed in my living room, signed, "To Ben God Bless, Roy Williams".

I know Sean Taylor is bigger, faster, and stronger than Roy Williams, you don't have to tell me. That quote, "a biscut away from being a linebacker" is directly from Parcells.

Unlike you, I don't base my opinion of a player merely on highlight videos on the internet, I watch the actual games. Sean Taylor is routienly matched up with T.O., Randy Moss, or other big play recievers in G.W.'s system. We're usually blitzing on 3rd down, sometimes a cornerback, which means Sean has to cover one on one. He did it against Keyshawn several times last year versus dallas.

I maintain my point that Sean Taylor is better in coverage than Roy Williams and he hits just as hard, if not harder. Taylor can do anything Roy can do. Roy can't cover his own shadow.

[TEK2000]

Here's the Chad Johnson highlights

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-X8Oi-KneXk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xp4MYa8GoVI

Excellent coverage on the 1st play there. Palmer shouldn't have thrown that ball.. Taylor had him covered the whole time.

2nd play looks like pass interference to me and an underthrown pass.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Notice that in BOTH plays.. Randy Moss almost COMPLETELY STOPS in order to catch the ball. This indicates the fact that if the ball were thrown worth a crap on EITHER of these plays.. its a reception. In the first play, if the ball is thrown LEADING Moss, it would definitely appear that Moss would make the catch. On the 2nd play, if the ball was not so HORRIBLY UNDERTHROWN, Moss would appear to prance into the endzone. The fact is that Taylor only gains ground on Moss and makes the play because the pass is severely underthrown.




The plays are what they are. There is no IF. Those balls were catchable by Moss and defended brilliantly by Taylor. Moss almost always wins a jump ball fight. Not this time. Give credit where it's due.

[DCMA]

Roy Williams is garbage

[ArmchairRedskin]

Excellent coverage on the 1st play there. Palmer shouldn't have thrown that ball.. Taylor had him covered the whole time.

2nd play looks like pass interference to me and an underthrown pass.



You can of course see what you want to, but the result of the play is what's important. INT and incomplete. Against one of the best receivers in the league and Taylor did it as a rookie.

[TEK2000]

My roommate is a die hard dallas cowboys fan. We have NFL Sunday ticket so I can see all the skins games and he can see all the cowboys games. When they don't air at the same time, I watch the cowboys games with him and root against your boys. In fact, there is a damn Roy Williams authentic jersey framed in my living room, signed, "To Ben God Bless, Roy Williams".

I know Sean Taylor is bigger, faster, and stronger than Roy Williams, you don't have to tell me. That quote, "a biscut away from being a linebacker" is directly from Parcells.

Unlike you, I don't base my opinion of a player merely on highlight videos on the internet, I watch the actual games. Sean Taylor is routienly matched up with T.O., Randy Moss, or other big play recievers in G.W.'s system. We're usually blitzing on 3rd down, sometimes a cornerback, which means Sean has to cover one on one. He did it against Keyshawn several times last year versus dallas.

I maintain my point that Sean Taylor is better in coverage than Roy Williams and he hits just as hard, if not harder. Taylor can do anything Roy can do. Roy can't cover his own shadow.

Find a quote of me saying my opinion of Sean Taylor. YOU WONT! If you read my posts, you'll see that I'm merely just discussing the 2 players.

I've CLEARLY stated that I have NOT seen enough of Sean Taylor and therefore I do not make statements to his ability. The only thing I've pointed out is what I see in the plays that I HAVE SEEN.

That quote is a normal "Parcellism"... just like him calling Skyler Green "fat" upon reporting to minicamp this summer.

There's no need to continually make judgements about me or attempt to insult my intelligence... I call it LIKE I SEE IT and I HAVE NOT and WILL NOT say anything along the lines of Sean Taylor sucks or isn't good or anything to that effect.

[The Animal Trainer]

Well this is a redskins site, so you will continually see people bash roy williams, the cowboys, and cowboys fans. All in good fun. Like I said, my roommate is a diehard cowboys fan, autographed roy williams jersey on the wall...I have this debate with him, alot. If you look back throughout this debate, I've continually said we're beating a dead horse, everyone here is high on Sean Taylor like everyone at cowboyszone is high on Roy Williams. You'll find people here who range from "Sean Taylor is slightly better than Roy Williams, they're both great players" to "Sean Taylor can whip Chuck Norris' ass, he's a monster, Roy Willaims is garbage". Just like you would at CZ.com with the player's names reversed. I fall somewhere in between that range depending on my mood. All in good fun. But lets not forget, over here :dallasuck

[TEK2000]

Well this is a redskins site, so you will continually see people bash roy williams, the cowboys, and cowboys fans. All in good fun. Like I said, my roommate is a diehard cowboys fan, autographed roy williams jersey on the wall...I have this debate with him, alot. If you look back throughout this debate, I've continually said we're beating a dead horse, everyone here is high on Sean Taylor like everyone at cowboyszone is high on Roy Williams. You'll find people here who range from "Sean Taylor is slightly better than Roy Williams, they're both great players" to "Sean Taylor can whip Chuck Norris' ass, he's a monster, Roy Willaims is garbage". Just like you would at CZ.com with the player's names reversed. I fall somewhere in between that range depending on my mood. All in good fun. But lets not forget, over here :dallasuck

Yeah, the Cowboys/Williams bashing is unavoidable here.. just like the Redskins/Taylor bashing would be rampant on a Cowboys forum. I just try to ignore the posts like "Roy Williams is garbage".

Can't disagree with ya there.. other than the fact, thru this past offseason, it was quite popular for even Cowboys fans to bash Roy Williams. The problem I have is that the only arguments that are ever brought up to bash Roy Williams are the 2 Santana Moss plays (other than the ridiculous horse collar comments). Just like lots of Cowboys fans throw out the 1 play when Crayton scored a TD behind Sean Taylor in 2004.

My main purpose visiting this forum is honestly to see what Redskins fans have to say regarding Sean Taylor. Obviously, I'm not interested in the Homer Calls... but more in the knowledgable opinions of people that can really offer great points and examples about the player. For example, I've got a list of game changing plays by Roy Williams.... I'd be interested to see the game changing plays Sean Taylor has pulled off in his career.

For me, I'll be downloading as many Sunday Ticket Shortcuts of Redskins games as I can this season just to see the full extent of Sean Taylor's game.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Can't disagree with ya there.. other than the fact, thru this past offseason, it was quite popular for even Cowboys fans to bash Roy Williams. The problem I have is that the only arguments that are ever brought up to bash Roy Williams are the 2 Santana Moss plays (other than the ridiculous horse collar comments). Just like lots of Cowboys fans throw out the 1 play when Crayton scored a TD behind Sean Taylor in 2004.





What do you mean by ridiculous?

[The Animal Trainer]

Sean Taylor won us 2 games last year. He scored against Philly and Tampa late in the season. That backbreaking hit on Crayton against the cowboys also sealed the game for us. That could have been a 1st down and the drive would have continued, possibly resulting in a field goal and an L. Taylor is definately a game changer.

[TEK2000]

What do you mean by ridiculous?

Like when people claim that he can't hit people because he's too busy horse collaring people.

He's never broken the rule that was named after him. And prior to it being a rule... there was never a word said about ANYONE tackling that way.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Like when people claim that he can't hit people because he's too busy horse collaring people.

He's never broken the rule that was named after him. And prior to it being a rule... there was never a word said about ANYONE tackling that way.


Well Roy has never been the poster child for textbook tackling, but I can see how claiming Roy can't tackle outside of horsecollaring is ridiculous.

However, you have to acknowledge that the way he slides forward while bringing the player down is what seperates his horsecollar tackles from the ones that don't injure players. That's why the rule was named after him.

[TEK2000]

Sean Taylor won us 2 games last year. He scored against Philly and Tampa late in the season. That backbreaking hit on Crayton against the cowboys also sealed the game for us. That could have been a 1st down and the drive would have continued, possibly resulting in a field goal and an L. Taylor is definately a game changer.

Just looking at the stats and play by play. He did everything he could to give you guys a much bigger lead on the Cardinals... but Brunell kept throwing interceptions in the Red Zone. :)

I remember seeing the fumble recovery for TD against Tampa Bay... good heads up play.

[TEK2000]

Well Roy has never been the poster child for textbook tackling, but I can see how claiming Roy can't tackle outside of horsecollaring is ridiculous.

However, you have to acknowledge that the way he slides forward while bringing the player down is what seperates his horsecollar tackles from the ones that don't injure players. That's why the rule was named after him.

During the 2004 season it proved to be dangerous but prior to that, I don't recall him ever injuring anyone with that method. And Roy said he's used that method all the way from junior high football up to the NFL.

The problem is that that is basis for anyone calling Roy a dirty player. In no way did Roy ever tackle people like that in a malicious manner intending to injure anyone.

[ArmchairRedskin]

During the 2004 season it proved to be dangerous but prior to that, I don't recall him ever injuring anyone with that method. And Roy said he's used that method all the way from junior high football up to the NFL.

The problem is that that is basis for anyone calling Roy a dirty player. In no way did Roy ever tackle people like that in a malicious manner intending to injure anyone.


Well I'm not sure what changed in 2004, but it's not a coincidence that he injured multiple players with similiar tackles.

I'm not gonna sit here and pretend that I know what his mindset was when he made those tackles, but you have to consider that he had tape of himself making those tackles to look at where he injured the legs of those players. He's not totally innocent in that he made no adjustment. I mean I can look at those plays and see exactly why those players were hurt. He and his coaches had to recognize those same things, yet it took an NFL ruling to bring change. I don't absolve him completely.

[Skins4481]

The survey conversation goes a few pages back... you said 9 out of 10 and I asked for the SURVEY results to your statement.

I believe Ronnie Lott did say that of the safeties in the NFL today.. Roy Williams most reminds him of himself. Like you, I don't bookmark everything either... but I did read this from someone quoting a radio interview done by some guys on Sirius or XM interviewing Ronnie Lott.

By the way, now that I think about it.. that article doesn't really serve your purpose. The guy says he's the hardest hitter... it doesn't say anything about that he WOULD CHOOSE Taylor over Williams.

And no.. just because someone doesn't agree with me doesn't mean its stupid. Its dumb because he's basing his argument on stats that ARE NOT the best in the NFL, size of players, and 40 yard dash times. Do you really think that's the best way to prove a point on who the best safety in the NFL is?

HAHA.. you caught a misspelled word... good for you... want a cookie? How about you drop the intelligence insults... otherwise, it just shows that you're incapable of making a post without having to attack the person you're directing your post at.

No the guy asked Ronnie Lott who reminds him of himself and he just said he likes to watch Roy Williams play. He didnt say RW reminds him of himself. I would also like to know WHEN(what year) he said that.


I have a question for you. Why do you keep posting here? Why do you keep reading our posts? I mean you have stated to your fellow retarded Cowboys buddies that EVERYONE you've ever seen post here sound like they are 14 or younger. Since you're such a smart, knowledgable, football fan why do you bother with us?

I am more than capable of making posts without insulting someone. I just dont like you. I've seen your posts at CZ and you act like you're so 'knowledgable' and Redskins fans are all idiots. I insult you because you say stupid :pooh: over at CZ and over here you try to be decent. A lot like HeavyHitta31.

TEK2000 = :jerk:

[TEK2000]

No the guy asked Ronnie Lott who reminds him of himself and he just said he likes to watch Roy Williams play. He didnt say RW reminds him of himself. I would also like to know WHEN(what year) he said that.


I have a question for you. Why do you keep posting here? Why do you keep reading our posts? I mean you have stated to your fellow retarded Cowboys buddies that EVERYONE you've ever seen post here sound like they are 14 or younger. Since you're such a smart, knowledgable, football fan why do you bother with us?

I am more than capable of making posts without insulting someone. I just dont like you. I've seen your posts at CZ and you act like you're so 'knowledgable' and Redskins fans are all idiots. I insult you because you say stupid :pooh: over at CZ and over here you try to be decent. A lot like HeavyHitta31.

TEK2000 = :jerk:


:blahblah: