When is it OK for boys to be girls, and girls to be boys?

[Sarge]

Only in San Francisco :doh:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/27/MNGL2KQ8H41.DTL


Park Day School is throwing out gender boundaries.

Teachers at the private Oakland elementary school have stopped asking the children to line up according to sex when walking to and from class. They now let boys play girls and girls play boys in skits. And there's a unisex bathroom.

Admissions director Flo Hodes is even a little apologetic that she still balances classes by gender.

Park Day's gender-neutral metamorphosis happened over the past few years, as applications trickled in for kindergartners who didn't fit on either side of the gender line. One girl enrolled as a boy, and there were other children who didn't dress or act in gender-typical ways. Last year the school hired a consultant to help the staff accommodate these new students.

"We had to ask ourselves, what is gender for young children?" Hodes said. "It's coming up more and more."

Park Day's staff members are among a growing number of educators and parents who are acknowledging gender variance in very young children. Aurora School, another private elementary school in Oakland, also is seeing children who are "gender fluid" and hired a clinical psychologist to conduct staff training.

Children with gender variant behaviors feel intensely that they want to look and act like the other sex. They prefer toys and activities typical of the opposite gender. Signs usually start appearing between the ages of 2 and 4.

For some children, it's a passing phase. Some grow up to be heterosexual, some gay. Some children insist they are the opposite sex although they might have a hard time explaining it. One nurse therapist said a boy once told her, "I think I swallowed a girl."

"The point is we don't know the outcome and don't need to know," said Catherine Tuerk, who runs the gender variance outreach program at Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., considered a leader in the field.

"What we need is a place where children can express what they want to," said Tuerk, who has been working on gender variance for three decades.

Kids have always explored gender roles, but precisely how many exhibit gender variance has not been estimated, said Dr. Edgardo Menvielle, associate professor of psychiatry with the Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

"What is new is how parents and educators are addressing it and being open to it at earlier ages," said Taneika Taylor of the Gender Public Advocacy Coalition, an organization in Washington, D.C., that is trying to end discrimination and violence caused by gender stereotypes.

This increased awareness, Taylor said, is fueled partly by the availability of information on the Internet and television. As the school year begins, new Web sites, e-mail support groups, educational materials and conferences offer support and education for parents and teachers of kids who defy gender stereotypes.

Their common message is not to try to change who these kids are, though mainstream mental health professionals are not unified. Some believe such feelings can and should be extinguished through therapy; others believe that can destroy children's self-esteem.

"If you are forced to be something you don't want to be as a kid, you are miserable," said Carla Odiaga of Boston, the consultant hired at Park Day.

Odiaga speaks from a decade of experience counseling lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender teens who she says are scarred by early memories -- a daughter forced to dress like a girl or a son whose dad hit him when he refused to play sports.

In the worst cases, children pushed by parents and picked on by peers grow depressed, suicidal or physically ill, said Caitlin Ryan, a clinical social worker at San Francisco State University who is conducting a long-term survey of gay youths and their families. She said many adolescents she talked to were picked on from kindergarten age -- long before they knew their sexual identity -- for looking or acting "too feminine" or "too butch."

Gender variance is an especially touchy topic when young children are the subjects. The Traditional Values Coalition calls efforts to accommodate these kids "normalizing the abnormal."

The group's executive director, Andrea Lafferty, said gender variance is a Bay Area phenomenon.

"If you talk to your typical person across America, they would be appalled," she said. "God made us male and female, and God makes no mistakes. To teach a child at an early age self-hatred, and that's what this gender variance is, is very sad."

Warren Throckmorton, an associate professor of psychology at Grove City College in Pennsylvania known for his work in the so-called ex-gay movement, agrees that some gender-variant children could be redirected to their birth sex.

"I've treated kids who were quite sure they were the opposite gender and are now are quite consistent in their behavior and their feelings with their biological sex," said Throckmorton.

But he warned against dogma on either side of the debate. "It's so individual. I don't want to say there's one answer."

Dr. Herb Schreier, a psychiatrist with Children's Hospital & Research Center Oakland who leads a gender variance support group, said studies show children's feelings about their gender are "hardwired" at birth.

"It's really important that the public be aware this is not something parents can turn their kids into. The data is very clear on this," Schreier said.

San Francisco mom Marci Riseman, whose 4-year-old son likes ballet, princess dresses and pink dragons, attributes the acceptance he has met to living in a liberal region. His preschool is open to his atypical play, and others in his ballet class don't care if he wears a tutu, Riseman said.

However, Riseman also gets support from the Children's National Medical Center in Washington, D.C., which has a gender variance program considered a leader in the field. She joined the program's 5-year-old online community, which has nearly 200 subscribers nationwide.

Petaluma mom Leslie Hansen knew something was different when her daughter was 2.

"She refused to wear pink, barrettes or anything fancy in her hair. She wanted her hair short. She didn't want to wear lace, dresses, patent leather shoes. She didn't want to play with dolls. Well, she had a dollhouse, but she put animals in it," Hansen said.

Her daughter, now 15, has short blond hair, braces, earrings in both ears. She binds her breasts in a too-small sports bra and could pass either as either a boy or a girl. She rides a skateboard and horses. Her room is filled with her collection of horses and J.R.R. Tolkien books.

Her birth name is Marisa, but she decided to enter 10th grade this month at Petaluma High School as Sasha, a name as androgynous to her as her cargo pants and T-shirts. She told her parents last year that she feels more like a boy than a girl.

Her mom, a family therapist, wasn't surprised. But she said not everyone understands Marisa or her family's response to her feelings. Even close friends have asked, "Haven't you tried to talk Marisa out of it?"

"People just don't get it. She's just who she is," Leslie Hansen said.

Sasha's school has been accommodating, offering her a private bathroom and place to change for gym class if she decides to enroll as a boy. The teen credits her parents for her relatively easy transition and self-confidence.

"Most other kids have had rough experiences. I'm one of the luckiest," she said, explaining that she recently met other teens in a Santa Rosa support group whose parents kicked them out of the house or who suffered harassment at school.

Other new efforts connecting kids and parents include Gender Public Advocacy Coalition's program Children As They Are, which supports and guides parents and teachers working with gender-variant children in preschool through sixth grade. It is launching a Web site this school year with brochures, meeting announcements and online networking.

Another advocacy group, the California Safe Schools Coalition, based in San Francisco, has been conducting workshops and surveys to determine which schools are best at eliminating discrimination and harassment based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

And Academy-Award-winning documentarian Debra Chasnoff is producing a film titled "Straight Laced" with Women's Educational Media of San Francisco that features interviews with teens, including Marisa Hansen, about how traditional gender roles affect their lives. The film, due for release in 2007, will be part of a series about nontraditional kids, school pressures and bullies made available to schools around the country.

"We have found out, with an uphill battle, that schools are beginning to listen," said Schreier of Children's Hospital Oakland.

In some cases, schools have been forced to pay attention. The California Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act of 2000 prohibits discrimination and harassment in public schools on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity.

In 2004, a federal court ordered Morgan Hill Unified School District to create a sensitivity training program for staff and students in seventh and ninth grades. The order ended a lawsuit brought by six students who said school officials ignored their pleas for help when they were abused by other students who thought they were gay.

According to a GenderPAC survey, students at more than 1,900 elementary schools and 150 preschools across the country are protected by district policies that prevent discrimination and harassment based on students' gender identity and sexual orientation.

While many of those schools were in California, the state is not alone. In a highly publicized case, a couple convinced the Broward County school system in Florida this year to admit their son to kindergarten as a girl.

He's reportedly the youngest transgender child admitted to a South Florida school, but the Broward and Miami-Dade County school systems were ready with pre-existing policies to accommodate such students.

[rincewind]

Ha - I think that sounds great, especially since close-minded people won't know how the **** to handle it and will get their panties all sorts of bunched up.




*grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*

:laugh:

[DCsportsfan53]

Ha - I think that sounds great, especially since close-minded people won't know how the **** to handle it and will get their panties all sorts of bunched up.




*grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*

:laugh:


Exactly what I was thinking. Let the kids express themselves. There's always the Sarge alternative, beat the gay out of em :silly:

[MisterPinstripe]

I am literally watching pretty much everything in this country degrade. Mark my words. With all of the crap going on in this country, it will collapse.

[Predicto]

Poor Sarge is all threatened again.

Don't worry. Someday you will be secure in your masculinity.... I think :laythehur

[Buford]

What's the rumor about folks who are most vocal about being anti-gay?

http://www.hollywoodiscalling.com/celebrity_photos/jgannascoli.jpg

Oh Vito, we hardly knew ye!

[MisterPinstripe]

Ha - I think that sounds great, especially since close-minded people won't know how the **** to handle it and will get their panties all sorts of bunched up.




*grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*

:laugh:

Who says " *grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*"? But since when are men and women the same? I really dont see why its a problem for people to see differences between the two. We are not the same, and thats kind of a good thing... Since when are differences bad?

[dfitzo53]

Who says " *grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*"? But since when are men and women the same? I really dont see why its a problem for people to see differences between the two. We are not the same, and thats kind of a good thing... Since when are differences bad?
The issue isn't about making men and women the same, it's about recognizing that some people identify more closely with the gender society wouldn't have assigned them.

[skinsfan51]

So it's ok if my son wants to be a girl? I should just encourage that? What's this nation coming to? God have mercy!

I can just see it now: "Dad, I feel like playing with the doll house."
Me: "It's ok son. You're just 'gender fluid'; or maybe you swallowed your sister."

Someone was right when they said Common Sense was dead.

[rincewind]

Who says " *grunt* Men, must do manly things. *grunt grunt*"?


Mass_SkinsFan.


*grunt*






Jus' jokes. :)

[SkinsHokieFan]

Definitley not a fan of this

What is wrong with encouraging boys to actually be boys and girls to actually be girls

We were designed different for a reason you know ;)

[alexey]

We are not the same, and thats kind of a good thing... Since when are differences bad?
Differences are good. "bad" is when people think they know what these differences are without actually learning them.

Sciences like Psychology or Neurobiology have much to say about gender differences... I'm sure people consider everything these sciences have to say prior to forming an opinion on gender differences ;)

[Buford]

So it's ok if my son wants to be a girl? I should just encourage that? What's this nation coming to? God have mercy!

I can just see it now: "Dad, I feel like playing with the doll house."
Me: "It's ok son. You're just 'gender fluid'; or maybe you swallowed your sister."

Someone was right when they said Common Sense was dead.

If your Son wants to be a girl. Being against this isn't going to stop that from coming out eventually. Might as well start accepting that he's bringing home his "friend" for the holidays during winter break from college.

[alexey]

What is wrong with encouraging boys to actually be boys and girls to actually be girls
Nothing wrong with that, as long as people doing the encouraging are correct on what it means for "boys to be boys" and "girls to be girls." :laugh:

[SkinsHokieFan]

If your Son wants to be a girl. Being against this isn't going to stop that from coming out eventually. Might as well start accepting that he's bringing home his "friend" for the holidays during winter break from college.


:laugh:

Some little boys are just silly or straight up wusses and eventually grow out of it. Why stop trying to establish gender roles at age 4?

[PF Chang]

Park Day's gender-neutral metamorphosis happened over the past few years, as applications trickled in for kindergartners who didn't fit on either side of the gender line.

At that point, it doesn't seem to be a question of men acting like men, or just acting how they feel. I don't care if a boy acts like a girl because he feels like it. But you're either born male or female, period, unless there's some sort of hermaphrodite thing going on. I can't check "Black" on my SAT's.

[Larry]

Definitley not a fan of this

What is wrong with encouraging boys to actually be boys and girls to actually be girls

We were designed different for a reason you know ;)

Line from one of Eastwood's Any Which Way movies.

Local sherrif has pulled over a motorcycle gang. All of whom are wearing women's wigs. Sherrif begins laughing, and walking back to the car. The gang leader is protesting, because he wants the cops to hassle his gang, so they can act manly. Cop keeps walking.

"You people (laugh) are an insult (laugh) to the laws (laugh) of nature."

"But we don't enforce those laws."

-----

It can indeed be argued that men and women were designed differently on purpose.

I didn't see anyone give the school system authority to enforce that design.

[skinsfan51]

If your Son wants to be a girl. Being against this isn't going to stop that from coming out eventually. Might as well start accepting that he's bringing home his "friend" for the holidays during winter break from college.

No sir! I am not of that number who believe that a person is born a homosexual. I believe it something that society pushes on them. I also believe it's a sin. God said so and I believe Him.

Doesn't anyone find it interesting that most of this entire article is based in the very liberal and pro-gay state of California; and specifically San Francisco? Talk about an environment that influences its children! If this article were a representative of the nation as a whole it may have some (little) value. But it's not in any way representative of the whole. It's isolated to a primarily gay community.

Talk about crushing a child's self-esteem! These people want to pat your kid on the head and tell them it's ok for them to despise the way God made them. Not in my house. As my children grow up my sons will be trained as boys. They are boys and will be expected to live like it. I will never hit them for any reason, let alone not playing sports. Some boys aren't sports minded. My oldest isn't, but he's not a girl by any stretch of the imagination. My girls wear dresses and act like girls. I expect that. That is how God made them. They will be taught to never be ashamed of how God made them. God makes not mistakes. Teaching them otherwise is telling them a lie.

All I know is I'm once again THANKFUL that I homeschool. Whew!

[dfitzo53]

These people want to pat your kid on the head and tell them it's ok for them to despise the way God made them. Not in my house.
I think you just broke my irony detector.

[skinsfan51]

I think you just broke my irony detector.

You'll have to explain, because I don't think your statement had the "obvious" affect you wanted it to.

[DCsportsfan53]

You'll have to explain, because I don't think your statement had the "obvious" affect you wanted it to.


It did for me. It's ok, if you're lucky, God will bless you with a gay son and you'll become a little more open minded and understanding :D

[PF Chang]

You'll have to explain, because I don't think your statement had the "obvious" affect you wanted it to.

He means that it's ironic because it would in fact be you crushing your child by making him turn against how he feels. However I generally agree with how you feel about this...just not for the same reasons such as religion.

[PleaseBlitz]

I think the point of all this is parents dont get a handbook. You get to raise your kids how you see fit.

Kids, you are pwned. :owned:

[alexey]

No sir! I am not of that number who believe that a person is born a homosexual. I believe it something that society pushes on them.

....

Talk about crushing a child's self-esteem! These people want to pat your kid on the head and tell them it's ok for them to despise the way God made them.
It is quite possible that people are not born homosexual, but that would not necessarily mean that people turn homosexual because of the pressure by society.

I am sure some people are more predisposed to be homosexual, though. Still, if we are to go that route I'd start blaming childhood trauma, abuse, etc and not "pressure by society"

At the same time, being able to fit into society and into gender roles of that society is a very important thing for a human being. It is not important what those roles are. The important part is to avoid childhood trauma.

[skinsfan51]

It did for me. It's ok, if you're lucky, God will bless you with a gay son and you'll become a little more open minded and understanding :D

If He did that would make God a very unjust Ruler of the Universe since He called it a sin and condemns it in the Bible. Again, I don't believe they are born that way and more than I believe "road rage" is genetic (yes, that's what they believe now).

[dfitzo53]

You'll have to explain, because I don't think your statement had the "obvious" affect you wanted it to.
Honestly, I don't want to get myself into a prolonged discussion about the nature of homosexuality, because I've walked that path before on this site. It's a dead end.

However, I will explain what I meant by that particular comment. You believe what the Bible has to say about homosexuality. I do not. Current scientific research supports the view that homosexuality is not a choice. My homosexual friends confirm this. Thus, I'm operating from the view that homosexuals were created the way they are, whether by your God, by Mother Nature, or by pure chance.

In that case, you would be the one teaching your children to despise the way God made them. If you can't sense the irony now (looking at things from my perspective that is) then I can't make it any clearer.

[PF Chang]

I think the point of all this is parents dont get a handbook. You get to raise your kids how you see fit.

Kids, you are pwned. :owned:

Unfortunately the school/teachers will play a part in that as well.

[PleaseBlitz]

Unfortunately the school/teachers will play a part in that as well.

Parent/teacher night has very little security. :)

[skinsfan51]

I am sure some people are more predisposed to be homosexual, though.

This may be true, I don't really know. I can't say a man is a liar if he tells me that he has an attraction to a man instead of a women. But that doesn't make it right for him to do that which God calls wrong. Hey, I like women. I'm heterosexual. What if I'm predisposed to strong sexual behavior and tell my poor wife that, although she's a good woman, I just need to go out and exercise my "predisposed behavior" on other women around town. I mean, after all it's "who I am." I can't help it. How can she find fault in that? Who makes the rules anyway? WHO says adultery is wrong? Who?

[Duckus]

Why is this even an issue, it’s a private school. I would not send my son or daughter to that type of school; I would prefer a standard public school in a good community that I lived in. As long as this is not done in the public school system, what does it matter?

[dfitzo53]

I'm heterosexual. What if I'm predisposed to strong sexual behavior and tell my poor wife that, although she's a good woman, I just need to go out and exercise my "predisposed behavior" on other women around town. I mean, after all it's "who I am." I can't help it. How can she find fault in that? Who makes the rules anyway? WHO says adultery is wrong? Who?
Relativity's a *****, ain't it?

[skinsfan51]

Current scientific research supports the view that homosexuality is not a choice. My homosexual friends confirm this.

This is not supported by the entire scientific community by any stretch, and relying on one's friends to agree with what they believe they are is not a good measuring stick.

Science changes all the time. God's word has stood for thousands of years without error or change. I'll take the latter, thank you.

[PF Chang]

This may be true, I don't really know. I can't say a man is a liar if he tells me that he has an attraction to a man instead of a women. But that doesn't make it right for him to do that which God calls wrong. Hey, I like women. I'm heterosexual. What if I'm predisposed to strong sexual behavior and tell my poor wife that, although she's a good woman, I just need to go out and exercise my "predisposed behavior" on other women around town. I mean, after all it's "who I am." I can't help it. How can she find fault in that? Who makes the rules anyway? WHO says adultery is wrong? Who?

Doesn't quite match up. If you exercise adultery and tell your wife...naturally she will disapprove of it. Regardless of who you are or how you feel, there is fault in that because it is not consenting between both people.

[skinsfan51]

Why is this even an issue, it’s a private school. I would not send my son or daughter to that type of school; I would prefer a standard public school in a good community that I lived in. As long as this is not done in the public school system, what does it matter?

It will be, don't doubt it.

[fight_on_til_you_have_won]

Why is this even an issue, it’s a private school. I would not send my son or daughter to that type of school; I would prefer a standard public school in a good community that I lived in. As long as this is not done in the public school system, what does it matter?
My thoughts exactly. Who cares what some kook school is doing? As long as they follow a basic curriculum and don't abuse the kids, who gives a ****?

[PF Chang]

It will be, don't doubt it.

Agreed...only takes one bolt of lightning to knock down the tree.

[dfitzo53]

Agreed...only takes one bolt of lightning to knock down the tree.
Or to make progress in understanding the intricacies of the human brain, depending on how you want to look at it.

[skinsfan51]

Doesn't quite match up. If you exercise adultery and tell your wife...naturally she will disapprove of it. Regardless of who you are or how you feel, there is fault in that because it is not consenting between both people.

By why should she be upset if that's how I am? Can I help it? Hey, I was born that way. Should I have asked her consent before I acted upon my NATURAL desires?

My point was to press the question: Is it ok to act out what you feel to be "natural" regardless of what others think? That's exactly what this article is promoting, and this exactly what these schools are promoting. I say it's wrong.

It's not always right to act out just because something is so-called "natural." Believing otherwise opens up a whole can of worms no one with any common sense would want to open.

[DCsportsfan53]

If He did that would make God a very unjust Ruler of the Universe since He called it a sin and condemns it in the Bible. Again, I don't believe they are born that way and more than I believe "road rage" is genetic (yes, that's what they believe now).


Unless he's not a published author, or his name isn't jesus. It's possible, you never know. There's been thousands of religions through the years and they all share one thing in common....they're convinced they've got it right.

[PF Chang]

Or to make progress in understanding the intricacies of the human brain, depending on how you want to look at it.

I wasn't making a judgment with the statement, just agreeing that eventually it will be more widespread than just this school. I think lightning was a little too charged of a word. :)

[PF Chang]

By why should she be upset if that's how I am? Can I help it? Hey, I was born that way. Should I have asked her consent before I acted upon my NATURAL desires?

My point was to press the question: Is it ok to act out what you feel to be "natural" regardless of what others think? That's exactly what this article is promoting, and this exactly what these schools are promoting. I say it's wrong.

It's not always right to act out just because something is so-called "natural." Believing otherwise opens up a whole can of worms no one with any common sense would want to open.

Good reply...very difficult question. These partisan issues don't get resolved because there's always a fine line...and nobody can agree on it.

[dfitzo53]

I think lightning was a little too charged of a word. :)
Lightning! Charged! I get it! ;)

It's all good man. :)

[Bang]

Elementary school kids don't see anything in terms of sexuality.
To them it's simply pretend. People project what they as an adult feel on kids who are in reality, just kids.

Unisex bathrooms I have to question, however. I mean, these are just kids, and to have them in there giggling and pointing at each other isn't going to help anyone.

~Bang

[Mass_SkinsFan]

This sort of thing greatly disturbs me. There are two distinct and separate genders of the human animal. One is Male. The other is female. Each gender came into existance with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Those strengths and weaknesses were inherent in the design of the human genders as they relate to the proper duties and roles of each gender. Over the centuries, each gender developed its own identity and limitations. For millenia the human race moved forward within these well-established and accepted limits. Then we hit the 20th Century and everything fell apart.

Why is that?, you ask Why did we suddenly, after millenia and centuries of moving forward as a species; did we suddenly not only stop advancing as a culture, but backslide? I'll tell you why.... Because humankind went and started ignoring all of those well-established limitations and "rules" that had been in place for so long. Humankind suddenly decided that the rules no longer meant anything and that the limits of a proper society no longer meant anything. Humankind decided that the citizens of the 20th Century were somehow so superior to the citizens of the past 19 Centuries since the birth of a middle eastern man and the citizens of untold centuries before his birth, that they could totally rewrite the rules and limits with impunity and nothing bad would happen to society. Now, obviously those limits and rules had evolved over the years, but 20th Century man decided that he could change everything in one fell swoop.

We're now seeing the fallout from that scorched earth policy of 20th Century man. We've devolved into a society where there are no rules, limitations or guidelines. A society where there can be no differences between anyone, regardless of whether the difference is seen as a positive or a negative trait. A society so permissive and accepting that it is starting to come apart at the seams around us.

This particular news item is just another example of how society is devolving around us. It shows how we have given up on the very idea of limits, rules or guidelines for society and the ramifications of that permissiveness. We have started ourselves down the slippery slope of immorality that destroyed Rome. Hopefully we will have learned from that once mighty society and will stop the descent before it's too late, if it isn't already. My only real hope is that I am gone from this life before the end comes.

[PF Chang]

Lightning! Charged! I get it! ;)

It's all good man. :)

:laugh: I noticed the pun too but felt ashamed that I naturally made it.

[Larry]

This is not supported by the entire scientific community by any stretch, and relying on one's friends to agree with what they believe they are is not a good measuring stick.

Science changes all the time. God's word has stood for thousands of years without error or change. I'll take the latter, thank you.

I seem to recall that for thousands of years, God said that the Earth was the center of the universe. That prople were put to death for questioning God's rule.

[skinsfan51]

Elementary school kids don't see anything in terms of sexuality.
To them it's simply pretend. People project what they as an adult feel on kids who are in reality, just kids.


~Bang

I agree with this. But it seems to me from reading the article that the adults want them to think beyond the innocence of childhood, and that is wrong.

Listen, if my son picks up a doll and plays house, I don't have a problem with that. I hope someday he has a family and LIVES house for real. There is no harm in that. But pushing an AGENDA (and that's what this is) on little children is wrong, and the parents of those kids should stand up against it.

[skinsfan51]

I seem to recall that for thousands of years, God said that the Earth was the center of the universe. That prople were put to death for questioning God's rule.

I think there may be a problem with your "recaller," Larry. Where did God say that?

[rincewind]

I agree with this. But it seems to me from reading the article that the adults want them to think beyond the innocence of childhood, and that is wrong.

Listen, if my son picks up a doll and plays house, I don't have a problem with that. I hope someday he has a family and LIVES house for real. There is no harm in that. But pushing an AGENDA (and that's what this is) on little children is wrong, and the parents of those kids should stand up against it.


Could you please explain what 'agenda' they are pushing? Links would be nice too. :)

[alexey]

This may be true, I don't really know. I can't say a man is a liar if he tells me that he has an attraction to a man instead of a women.
Our brains are constantly "programmed" beginning in the womb and until death... Everything we come in contact with has an effect on it. Every one of our thoughts slightly changes things in there. It makes a similar thought more likely. This is why people do not have to believe the propaganda for it to work - it works by repetition. In the same way a person can program themselves to be attracted to men. Is he a liar when he tells you he likes men over women? Not really. He may actually be more attracted to men at that point.



I mean, after all it's "who I am." I can't help it.
This "who I am" thing is an illusion. You can change it. ;)

[dfitzo53]

This sort of thing greatly disturbs me. There are two distinct and separate genders of the human animal. One is Male. The other is female. Each gender came into existance with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Those strengths and weaknesses were inherent in the design of the human genders as they relate to the proper duties and roles of each gender. Over the centuries, each gender developed its own identity and limitations. For millenia the human race moved forward within these well-established and accepted limits. Then we hit the 20th Century and everything fell apart.
Actually, there are two distinct sexes of the human animal, Male and Female. Genders are culturally defined, and not as concrete. In traditional Western society we generally like to recognize only two, matching up very closely with the biological sexes, but in other cultures there are three or more.

Whether intentionally or not, your post focused purely on the history of the Western European mindset and gender construction at the exclusion of other cultures which have existed equally long or even longer than our own. To claim that our concepts of gender have been the same for two thousand years, or that they represent the universal standard across the planet is silly.

[rincewind]

I think there may be a problem with your "recaller," Larry. Where did God say that?


Galileo broke Larry's 'recaller'. ;)

[skinsfan51]

Good reply...very difficult question. These partisan issues don't get resolved because there's always a fine line...and nobody can agree on it.

These are very difficult issues, and the answers are complex, but they are there if you start with a standard: a foundation. I believe that to be God's word, the Bible. If everything is relative, then we hit the fan as a society.

Some time ago I saw one of the evening programs like 20/20 covering the story of a Roman Catholic priest sex offender. It was in Ireland or somewhere. Well, he spent some time in jail, but is now free. He told the government that he still had sexual desires toward children, but they let him out anyway. He was being interviewed in a park area near an elementary school with hundreds of children playing all around. I'll never forget the interviewer's questions:

Interviewer: "Do you still have sexual desires for these kids." (pointing to the children in the area.)

Former Priest: "Yes."

Interviewer: "Do you have sexual desires for adult women in a bathing suit or underwear?"

Former Priest: "No."

Interviewer: "Do you have sexual desires for young children in underwear?"

Former Priest: "Yes. Definitely."

SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO...my fellow 'Skins fans. What's the problem here? I mean, this guy was BORN this way. He just NATURALLY has sexual desires for children. Why can't he exercise his desires if he so chooses?

I'll take it even further. Let's say that he finds a young boy who actually allows him to exercise his natural sexual desires on him? It's "consensual." What's wrong with that?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Actually, there are two distinct sexes of the human animal, Male and Female. Genders are culturally defined, and not as concrete. In traditional Western society we generally like to recognize only two, matching up very closely with the biological sexes, but in other cultures there are three or more.

I cannot speak for most of the Eastern traditions, as I do not have enough of a background in the history and culture of those peoples to speak knowledgably about them. As for Western society, I've yet to see one that accepted anything beyond the two genders typically linked to the biological sexes. If there is a Western society out there that does accept more, I'm not aware of it.


Whether intentionally or not, your post focused purely on the history of the Western European mindset and gender construction at the exclusion of other cultures which have existed equally long or even longer than our own. To claim that our concepts of gender have been the same for two thousand years, or that they represent the universal standard across the planet is silly.

My post focused on those areas that I have historical knowledge relating to. I never claimed that our concepts of gender have not evolved. In fact I said the exact opposite. We live in a Western culture. The majority of the people who live in this country come from Western cultures. Therefore the main influence is previous Western cultures. Yes, many of the Eastern cultures have been around much longer than our Western ones, however, they don't have the amount of influence on our culture as the Western ones have.

[skinsfan51]

This "who I am" thing is an illusion. You can change it. ;)

I agree. :)

[Cdowwe]

Boy wears skirt
Boy gets beat up
Parents sue school for letting boy get beat up

[rincewind]

How come everytime the topic of hom0sexuality comes up, someone has to try to blur the lay between being gay and being a ped0phile. They are two VERY, VERY different things - starting with one being illegal.

[skinsfan51]

Boy wears skirt
Boy gets beat up
Parents sue school for letting boy get beat up

Oh, so it's a CONSPIRACY theory to help parents get rich quick, eh?

I'm with ya, I'm with ya. :D :laugh:

[skinsfan51]

How come everytime the topic of hom0sexuality comes up, someone has to try to blur the lay between being gay and being a ped0phile. They are two VERY, VERY different things - starting with one being illegal.

Um, homosexuality used to be illegal, and second, doesn't the pedophile have just as much a right to claim "birth right" as the gay person? If not, why not? I mean that's how he evolved. Who are you to say it's wrong?

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sodomy is STILL illegal in many states, even though it's not enforced. So your argument is invalid. The act of homosexuality is still illegal, just like pedophilia, and both claim they were born that way. What's the difference? Why is one ok and the other wrong?

[Midnight Judges]

When I was taking sociology at ECU, my teacher had a unit on children and babies that were born transexual. He had a slide show that showed babies after birth, and as a class we literally could not tell which ones were boys and which ones were girls. In some cases, the parents made the decision right then and there for the child to have surgery one way or the other. Sometimes it worked out and sometimes a little girl would start showing signs that they really were a boy and vice-versa. Then you are in a world of :pooh: at which point you realize you made the wrong decision, and now the only way for your child to be normal is another intensive operation.

My point is, this is a special school-for children that may have birth abnormalities. One guy is acting like this has become status quo in public schools in San Francisco.

[skinsfan51]

My point is, this is a special school-for children that may have birth abnormalities.

I missed that statement in the article. Did it talk about birth abnormalities? Do you think they see it that way? I don't.

[rincewind]

Um, hom0sexuality used to be illegal, and second, doesn't the ped0phile have just as much a right to claim "birth right" as the gay person? If not, why not? I mean that's how he evolved. Who are you to say it's wrong?

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sod0my is STILL illegal in many states, even though it's not enforced. So your argument is invalid. The act of hom0sexuality is still illegal, just like ped0philia, and both claim they were born that way. What's the difference? Why is one ok and the other wrong?



A. Sod0my is illegal in some place. Not being gay. Being a ped0phile is illegal, so my point is valid.


B. I have to go to the dentist (plus, these types of threads are torture with my work filters). So we can continue later, but I would still like to know what 'agenda' is being pushed here. Conspiracies - wooo wooo.

[Midnight Judges]

I missed that statement in the article. Did it talk about birth abnormalities? Do you think they see it that way? I don't.

The article doesn't really say. I'm just pointing out that this is a private school, not a public school, and it says the children didn't fit in in regular school. I connected the dots but I could be wrong.

[BlueTalon]

Observations:

1. It's a private school, they can do whatever they want, as long as it's legal and they teach basic subjects to a competent level.

2. It's in California, the biggest collection of fruitloops and wingnuts on the planet.

3. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. The only parents who will send their kids to a school like that are people who think blended genders are no big deal, so from my point of view they are already largely apathetic, but nevertheless, those unisex bathrooms (and the school itself) will only last as long as it takes for some of those kids to be molested.

4. If anything like this takes hold in the public schools, then the public school system needs to be scrapped.

[skinsfan51]

Observations:

1. It's a private school, they can do whatever they want, as long as it's legal and they teach basic subjects to a competent level.

Debatable. I guess if the parents who pay thousands of dollars a year don't agree with what the school teaches they can pull their kids and the school shuts down.


2. It's in California, the biggest collection of fruitloops and wingnuts on the planet.

Agreed! :laugh:


3. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. The only parents who will send their kids to a school like that are people who think blended genders are no big deal, so from my point of view they are already largely apathetic, but nevertheless, those unisex bathrooms (and the school itself) will only last as long as it takes for some of those kids to be molested.

Agreed, and sad.


4. If anything like this takes hold in the public schools, then the public school system needs to be scrapped.

It needed to be scrapped--or at least completely overhauled--yesterday.

[Predicto]

Um, homosexuality used to be illegal, and second, doesn't the pedophile have just as much a right to claim "birth right" as the gay person? If not, why not? I mean that's how he evolved. Who are you to say it's wrong?


I think most of us are tired of explaining the obvious difference between homosexuality and pedophilia to people on this board who simply ignore that difference and repeat the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over. It's tiring.

Here's a little clue, however. One has an underaged vulnerable victim who cannot legally consent. One does not.

[Predicto]

By the way, do any of you know what a unisex bathroom means? There are unisex bathrooms all over the place, including at my kid's school (which is a Quaker school and very traditional in most ways).

Unisex bathrooms are just as private as any other bathroom. All it means is that the toilet stalls are their own little rooms with their own little locking doors, rather than a just a row of johns sitting against the wall. The doors open out into a larger room with a row of sinks and mirrors, and a doorway that is open to the school hallway. They actually IMPROVE discipline, since you can't sneak in there and act up and smoke or anything. You do your stuff, wash your hands and leave.

[BlueTalon]

Somehow, I don't have nearly as much apprehension about unisex bathrooms at a Quaker school as I do about unisex bathrooms at a California school whose main theme has become gender blending.

[twa]

I think most of us are tired of explaining the obvious difference between homosexuality and pedophilia to people on this board who simply ignore that difference and repeat the same crap over and over and over and over and over and over. It's tiring.

Here's a little clue, however. One has a vulnerable victim. One does not.

I can certainly understand that, however the problem is the argument that both can be hardwired (or genetic)rather than choice keeps being used which provides a excuse for that to come up.
It is certainly distastefull but once you state behavior is not subject to personal choice cross linking will continue to occur.
I think most do not use it as a attack on homosexuality( though some do), but rather as a extension of the theory and the possible hazards of it.

[Predicto]

Somehow, I don't have nearly as much apprehension about unisex bathrooms at a Quaker school as I do about unisex bathrooms at a California school whose main theme has become gender blending.

Well, I'm not sure if gender blending is their main theme, or just the main theme of this titillating article. I'm guessing the latter.

And my kids' Quaker school is in San Francisco :eek:

It's still Quaker tho - and as far as I know they went unisex on the main bathroom as a conscious decision to reduce the potential for inappropriate/disruptive behavior (because the room is open to the hallway).

[Larry]

Boy wears skirt
Boy gets beat up
Parents sue school for letting boy get beat up

Obviously, what's wrong with this picture is that the school should have preemptively punished the boy for making those other boys beat him up.

[BlueTalon]

Debatable. I guess if the parents who pay thousands of dollars a year don't agree with what the school teaches they can pull their kids and the school shuts down.
The point is that I don't want anyone telling me that I can't send my kids to a Christian school, a Jewish school, or any other type of school. I'm a believer in market forces driving things like this. In California, there appears to be a market for gender blending schools, driven by parents who believe their children to be sexually confused, or who believe that it's good for their children to be exposed to sexually confused children. But there's a market for all kinds of other schools, though, and I don't want the option of those other types of schools to be eliminated by a pendulum swing overreaction to what goes on at this school.

[dfitzo53]

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sodomy is STILL illegal in many states, even though it's not enforced. So your argument is invalid. The act of homosexuality is still illegal, just like pedophilia, and both claim they were born that way. What's the difference? Why is one ok and the other wrong?
Since those same laws frequently outlaw oral sex (or for that matter, any sex that isn't in the missionary position) I don't buy this argument.


I cannot speak for most of the Eastern traditions, as I do not have enough of a background in the history and culture of those peoples to speak knowledgably about them...
Looks like I read your post in a different manner than you intended it.

[Larry]

Um, homosexuality used to be illegal, and second, doesn't the pedophile have just as much a right to claim "birth right" as the gay person? If not, why not? I mean that's how he evolved. Who are you to say it's wrong?

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe sodomy is STILL illegal in many states, even though it's not enforced. So your argument is invalid. The act of homosexuality is still illegal, just like pedophilia, and both claim they were born that way. What's the difference? Why is one ok and the other wrong?

1) Pedophilia isn't illegal. Rape is. (Pedophilia is "wanting something".)

2) No, Sodomy isn't illegal. The law was ruled unconstitutional. (And the reason it was ruled unconstitutional was exactly the thing you mentioned: It was only enforced against gays.)

3) People aren't punished for wanting to have sex with kids. They're punished for raping kids. (That's what sex with kids is.)

But year, you're right, both

Preventing children from getting raped. And
Preventing consenting adults from doing something you don't like.

are equally deserving of having government enforcement.

[Predicto]

I can certainly understand that, however the problem is the argument that both can be hardwired (or genetic)rather than choice keeps being used which provides a excuse for that to come up.
It is certainly distastefull but once you state behavior is not subject to personal choice cross linking will continue to occur.
I think most do not use it as a attack on homosexuality( though some do), but rather as a extension of the theory and the possible hazards of it.

But it is still a total red herring. Exploitation of children is different than consentual behavior between adults. You can't just pretend that distinction doesn't exist - that distinction is huge and overwhelms everything else. It's like comparing right-wing Americans to German Nazis because both are very patriotic - if I made that comparison over and over people would be outraged (and rightfully so). The common conceptual ground between Nazis and other people can't overcome the fact that the Nazis were EVIL.

Look, the same argument Skinsfan51 is making can be made using bigamy as the comparison rather than pedophilia, and the argument becomes much more valid. But people keep going back to pedophilia for their arguments because it is such an offensive and criminal act, and they want to rub a little of that "offensiveness and criminality" off onto homosexuality to make their argument more powerful. It's shoddy debating.

[Larry]

3. It's a lawsuit waiting to happen. The only parents who will send their kids to a school like that are people who think blended genders are no big deal, so from my point of view they are already largely apathetic, but nevertheless, those unisex bathrooms (and the school itself) will only last as long as it takes for some of those kids to be molested.

Yeah, since obviously having a bathroom for 8-year-old boys and girls is much more likely to have a child molester in it than one for boys and one for girls.

[Larry]

Look, the same argument Skinsfan51 is making can be made using bigamy as the comparison rather than pedophilia, and the argument becomes much more valid. But people keep going back to pedophilia for their arguments because it is such an offensive and criminal act, and they want to rub a little of that "offensiveness and criminality" off onto homosexuality to make their argument more powerful. It's shoddy debating.

Failing to vote Republican causes mushroom clouds. :)

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Looks like I read your post in a different manner than you intended it.

Not a problem. That tends to happen quite a bit. Especially when I start to post in a more technical form than the casual postings that generally dominate the internet.

What I was commenting on was the fact that for millenia we've had accepted standards, limits, and rules for society. Not just for gender roles, but for pretty much everything in society. Those limits and rules have changed over time, but in the 20th Century we took the whole book of rules, standards and limits for society and threw them out the window in one shot. We essentially took everything that has controlled society for centuries and destroyed it in a fifty year period. Then we wonder why society is falling to pieces around us, like we have no idea what has happened.

Does that clear it up a bit for you?

[nelms]

Great. Now the libs want to cut off the weiners of America's youth.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Great. Now the libs want to cut off the weiners of America's youth.

You only got that half-right nelms. They want to cut the weiners of of American Boys and sew them onto American girls.

[Predicto]

Ahh, two more poor souls sadly insecure about their own masculinity.

You guys can go over there and sit with Sarge. :)

[nelms]

Ahh, two more poor souls sadly insecure about their own masculinity.
Oh, I'm completely secure. I just don't like gender swapping. Libs want to blur the lines between men and women. Not sure why, but it's perverted if you ask me.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Ahh, two more poor souls sadly insecure about their own masculinity.

You guys can go over there and sit with Sarge. :)

Predicto, I never realized that actually expecting society to have set rules and standards meant I was insecure about my masculinity. I always thought that it meant that I expected society to work in a certain way. That being something close to the way society has operated for the last couple of millenia.

In the last eighty years, society has broken down pretty much every barrier between the genders. That's not a good thing in my mind. It never will be. I'm just talking about accepting that there are things that men or women do better than the other gender and that's acceptable. We've so completely blurred the line between the genders that there might as well not be one anymore and it's having a seriously detrimental effect on society in general.

[stevenaa]

Ahh, two more poor souls sadly insecure about their own masculinity.

You guys can go over there and sit with Sarge. :)


This is such a typical condecending response. Make a personal attack against people for their positions instead of attacking the valididy of their position. Great debate technique and sure to win many to your side of the argument. ;)

What I want to see is an argument made for why celebrating and encouraging gender differences is a bad thing. What big harm is being caused by raising our children in specific gender roles? There are very real physical and physcological differences. Why should we desire homogenous gender roles? This is such a stupid notion that it defies rationalization. Because a very small minority of children may have gender role confusion, lets affect the majority by not recoginzing what they are by birth. Liberalism at its finest. Can't make the tough choices, so let's find a eutopia where no choices need be made.

[Cdowwe]

I remember in Kindergarten we had one single bathroom per school room. Dunno if thats the same thing.

[twa]

But it is still a total red herring. Exploitation of children is different than consentual behavior between adults. You can't just pretend that distinction doesn't exist - that distinction is huge and overwhelms everything else. It's like comparing right-wing Americans to German Nazis because both are very patriotic - if I made that comparison over and over people would be outraged (and rightfully so). The common conceptual ground between Nazis and other people can't overcome the fact that the Nazis were EVIL.

Look, the same argument Skinsfan51 is making can be made using bigamy as the comparison rather than pedophilia, and the argument becomes much more valid. But people keep going back to pedophilia for their arguments because it is such an offensive and criminal act, and they want to rub a little of that "offensiveness and criminality" off onto homosexuality to make their argument more powerful. It's shoddy debating.


Not quite , one is still illegal whereas the other was illegal but was changed simply by society's standards.
You and I make that distinction,but NAMBA and others can easily use the argument age of consent and denial of thier involuntary needs are simply society discriminating against thier genetic nature.

Using bigamy is only less offensive than valid ... The right to any conduct cannot be justified by predisposition or genetics w/o consequences to society.

[Larry]

This is such a typical condecending response. Make a personal attack against people for their positions instead of attacking the valididy of their position. Great debate technique and sure to win many to your side of the argument. ;)

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

To paraphrase Eastwood from High Plains Drifter, "Wonder what took you so long to get mad".

In this thread, we've had the traditional arguments claiming that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia. Edit: make that "we're still having".

We've had claims that same-sex bathrooms cause child molestation.

We've had claims that kids will get beat up, and it'll be the school's fault.

In the posts immediatly preceeding the one you object to, we've had two people debating whether "the libs" will be satisfied with removing the penises of young children, or will further acts be needed to accomplish their agenda.

But let someone make a joking reference to a popopular pop-psychology theory, implying that intense dislike of homosexuality implies latent homosexuality, and well, that's just too much, and it's ruining the quality of the intelectual debate.

[Jibby]

This makes me think of the chyna sex tape.

*shiver*

[skinsfan51]

Only in San Francisco :doh:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/08/27/MNGL2KQ8H41.DTL


Park Day School is throwing out gender boundaries.

Teachers at the private Oakland elementary school have stopped asking the children to line up according to sex when walking to and from class. They now let boys play girls and girls play boys in skits. And there's a unisex bathroom.

I checked out a "Dilbert" book from the library tonight and came across this one. I couldn't resist posting in... :laugh:

http://www.christianasbookshelf.com/graphics/dilbert1.jpg

[skinsfan51]

1) Pedophilia isn't illegal. Rape is. (Pedophilia is "wanting something".)

ped·o·phil·i·a (pd-fl-, pd-)
The act or fantasy on the part of an adult of engaging in sexual activity with a child or children.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Pedophilia

It is illegal and should stay that way. But who knows? In 30 years society might see it as "ok," and then it's an old archaic law that should be trashed. Hey, don't think it crazy. That's what happened with the homosexuality laws. They were done away with LONG before anyone had any so-called scientific "proof" that gays are born gay.


2) No, Sodomy isn't illegal. The law was ruled unconstitutional. (And the reason it was ruled unconstitutional was exactly the thing you mentioned: It was only enforced against gays.)

I'm not sure you're right about this. I think it was based on a state by state basis. I find it hard to believe that my state, South Carolina, smack in the middle of the Bible Belt took that law off the books.

Either way, it proves my point. The reason most gays were getting in trouble over breaking that law is because that is what distinguishes them from being hetrosexual. Forget all this modern terminology that has blurred the lines. Since the beginning a "homosexual" has been defined as someone who has sexual relations with another of the same sex. If it weren't true then the term "SEXUAL orientation" wouldn't be so often used.


3) People aren't punished for wanting to have sex with kids. They're punished for raping kids. (That's what sex with kids is.)

Maybe not, and you'd probably say they shouldn't be punished, right? But I sure don't want them as my neighbors. How about you?

[Skinz89]

Exactly what I was thinking. Let the kids express themselves. There's always the Sarge alternative, beat the gay out of em :silly:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[SEF]

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

To paraphrase Eastwood from High Plains Drifter, "Wonder what took you so long to get mad".

In this thread, we've had the traditional arguments claiming that homosexuality is the same as pedophilia. Edit: make that "we're still having".

We've had claims that same-sex bathrooms cause child molestation.

We've had claims that kids will get beat up, and it'll be the school's fault.

In the posts immediatly preceeding the one you object to, we've had two people debating whether "the libs" will be satisfied with removing the penises of young children, or will further acts be needed to accomplish their agenda.

But let someone make a joking reference to a popopular pop-psychology theory, implying that intense dislike of homosexuality implies latent homosexuality, and well, that's just too much, and it's ruining the quality of the intelectual debate.

:laugh: True. When "debating" these repressed homosexuals and bigots you better not mention the fact that they are. That's over the line.

[skinsfan51]

1) Pedophilia isn't illegal. Rape is. (Pedophilia is "wanting something".)

...People aren't punished for wanting to have sex with kids. They're punished for raping kids. (That's what sex with kids is.)

Question: if a 43 year old man has sex with a 15 year old consenting girl, is it rape? I'm not asking about what the law says. I want to know what you think. Is it morally wrong? If so, why? Based on what?

I remember years ago while working at Citibank, a young girl and her friend had accompanied her father on a business trip from New York City to our office in Rochester. I happened to be eating lunch near these girls and started a friendly conversation. One of the girls looked to be about 19 years old in every way imaginable. She even asked me, "How old do you think I am?" When I guess wrong, she told me she was 15. I was totally shocked. Then she started laughing about all of her FATHER'S FRIENDS she had slept with and how it was funny that they didn't know how old she was either. Her dad was in his 40s at least. I'm sure his friends were the same.

Rape or consensual sex? Right or wrong?

[rincewind]

Question: if a 43 year old man has sex with a 15 year old consenting girl, is it rape? I'm not asking about what the law says. I want to know what you think. Is it morally wrong? If so, why? Based on what?

I remember years ago while working at Citibank, a young girl and her friend had accompanied her father on a business trip from New York City to our office in Rochester. I happened to be eating lunch near these girls and started a friendly conversation. One of the girls looked to be about 19 years old in every way imaginable. She even asked me, "How old do you think I am?" When I guess wrong, she told me she was 15. I was totally shocked. Then she started laughing about all of her FATHER'S FRIENDS she had slept with and how it was funny that they didn't know how old she was either. Her dad was in his 40s at least. I'm sure his friends were the same.

Rape or consensual sex? Right or wrong?



What's your point? If you're going to try to tie this to hom0sexuality, I don't really see the point in answering your question.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Question: if a 43 year old man has sex with a 15 year old consenting girl, is it rape? I'm not asking about what the law says. I want to know what you think. Is it morally wrong? If so, why? Based on what?

I don't believe there's a nice, easy, simple answer to that question. Today's youth are much more physically mature at a much younger age than kids were even 15-20 years ago when I was growing up. They're doing things at younger ages and learning more about their bodies much earlier than me and my peers ever did. However, the mental maturity of these same youth is nowhere near the level of what it was in my day. These kids, for whatever reason (and it could be debated what those are) are nowhere near as mentally or morally mature as kids were when I was growing up.

That leads to a serious dicotomy.... The bodies of these kids are ready, willing and able too engage in these activities, but are their minds truly ready and capable to make the decision about whether or not they should engage in these activities?

[skinsfan51]

I don't believe there's a nice, easy, simple answer to that question. Today's youth are much more physically mature at a much younger age than kids were even 15-20 years ago when I was growing up. They're doing things at younger ages and learning more about their bodies much earlier than me and my peers ever did. However, the mental maturity of these same youth is nowhere near the level of what it was in my day. These kids, for whatever reason (and it could be debated what those are) are nowhere near as mentally or morally mature as kids were when I was growing up.

That leads to a serious dicotomy.... The bodies of these kids are ready, willing and able too engage in these activities, but are their minds truly ready and capable to make the decision about whether or not they should engage in these activities?

Good post. Hard issues. It seems like for all the stepping forward we think we've done in our advanced generation, we've really stepped backwards. I'd much rather see mental, spiritual, and social maturity over physical maturity in young people any day of the week. So WHAT has caused the decline in the mental and moral maturity in our kids today?

A nice body will only take you so far and will get used up after not so many years. A sound mind and character will last a lifetime.

Off beat question: does anyone think that the greater physical developement in kids today is due to hormones in our food? I do.

[skinsfan51]

What's your point? If you're going to try to tie this to hom0sexuality, I don't really see the point in answering your question.

I'm not trying to tie it in with homosexuality. The question stood alone. The person I quoted was saying that having sex with a child is "rape." I simply brought up a case that may cause some of us to question that. I still think it's rape: consensual or not. But I'm certain others believe otherwise. You?

[rincewind]

I'm not trying to tie it in with homosexuality. The question stood alone. The person I quoted was saying that having sex with a child is "rape." I simply brought up a case that may cause some of us to question that. I still think it's rape: consensual or not. But I'm certain others believe otherwise. You?


Well, technically it is rap3. Sex with teenagers is a sticky subject - they are maturing quicker and younger than ever (I feel this is a direct result of the technology boom). But, you are still praying on the emotions and appetites of someone who probably doesn't fully understand what is happening.



Not that I'm condoning it, but I think the use of the word rap3 is a little harsh in some instances. But, like I said, technically, that's what it is.

[flashback]

This sort of thing greatly disturbs me. There are two distinct and separate genders of the human animal. One is Male. The other is female. Each gender came into existance with certain strengths and certain weaknesses. Those strengths and weaknesses were inherent in the design of the human genders as they relate to the proper duties and roles of each gender. Over the centuries, each gender developed its own identity and limitations. For millenia the human race moved forward within these well-established and accepted limits. Then we hit the 20th Century and everything fell apart.

Why is that?, you ask Why did we suddenly, after millenia and centuries of moving forward as a species; did we suddenly not only stop advancing as a culture, but backslide? I'll tell you why.... Because humankind went and started ignoring all of those well-established limitations and "rules" that had been in place for so long. Humankind suddenly decided that the rules no longer meant anything and that the limits of a proper society no longer meant anything. Humankind decided that the citizens of the 20th Century were somehow so superior to the citizens of the past 19 Centuries since the birth of a middle eastern man and the citizens of untold centuries before his birth, that they could totally rewrite the rules and limits with impunity and nothing bad would happen to society. Now, obviously those limits and rules had evolved over the years, but 20th Century man decided that he could change everything in one fell swoop.

We're now seeing the fallout from that scorched earth policy of 20th Century man. We've devolved into a society where there are no rules, limitations or guidelines. A society where there can be no differences between anyone, regardless of whether the difference is seen as a positive or a negative trait. A society so permissive and accepting that it is starting to come apart at the seams around us.

This particular news item is just another example of how society is devolving around us. It shows how we have given up on the very idea of limits, rules or guidelines for society and the ramifications of that permissiveness. We have started ourselves down the slippery slope of immorality that destroyed Rome. Hopefully we will have learned from that once mighty society and will stop the descent before it's too late, if it isn't already. My only real hope is that I am gone from this life before the end comes.


In your 2nd sentence you say "gender" when you mean "sex". How can you expect anyone to pay any attention to you ignorant diatribe?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Good post. Hard issues. It seems like for all the stepping forward we think we've done in our advanced generation, we've really stepped backwards. I'd much rather see mental, spiritual, and social maturity over physical maturity in young people any day of the week. So WHAT has caused the decline in the mental and moral maturity in our kids today?

We've DEFINITELY taken several steps backwards in the last century. We've seen a much greater importance placed on physical appearance and the total destruction of all social and societal rules, limits and guidelines. That's been discussed in several threads recently.


A nice body will only take you so far and will get used up after not so many years. A sound mind and character will last a lifetime.

True. That's been discussed several times around here recently. Including the question of whether physical attractiveness or or personality are more important.


Off beat question: does anyone think that the greater physical developement in kids today is due to hormones in our food? I do.

No. Actually, I believe it's our society's focus on physical attractiveness combined with the much better knowledge of health and diet information.

[BlueTalon]

Question: if a 43 year old man has sex with a 15 year old consenting girl, is it rape? I'm not asking about what the law says. I want to know what you think. Is it morally wrong? If so, why? Based on what?

I remember years ago while working at Citibank, a young girl and her friend had accompanied her father on a business trip from New York City to our office in Rochester. I happened to be eating lunch near these girls and started a friendly conversation. One of the girls looked to be about 19 years old in every way imaginable. She even asked me, "How old do you think I am?" When I guess wrong, she told me she was 15. I was totally shocked. Then she started laughing about all of her FATHER'S FRIENDS she had slept with and how it was funny that they didn't know how old she was either. Her dad was in his 40s at least. I'm sure his friends were the same.

Rape or consensual sex? Right or wrong?Since you are specifically not asking about what the law says, I'm going to say it depends. If the girl has declared her independence, left home and struck out on her own, then she'd be a free moral agent. If she's still at home, living with the provision and support of her parents, then it's on her father's friends, and perhaps even her father.

If it were my friends and my 15 year old daughter, and I found out it was happening, I would introduce the men to part of my gun collection -- and if it continued, there'd be some dead bodies in the west Texas desert for the vultures to feed on.


But to be honest, I'm not convinced the girl was telling the truth.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

In your 2nd sentence you say "gender" when you mean "sex". How can you expect anyone to pay any attention to you ignorant diatribe?

I said EXACTLY what I meant. I don't believe that there is any difference between gender and sex when it comes to human beings. The concept that there is some difference between the two concepts is an example of the decline and breakdown of our society.

Additionally, if that's the only thing you can come up with in my "ignorant diatribe" to complain about, your arguement doesn't hold a lot of water. I'd love for you to counter-point my arguement, IF YOU CAN. But it would appear you've already indicated that YOU CAN'T with this response.

[BlueTalon]

In your 2nd sentence you say "gender" when you mean "sex". How can you expect anyone to pay any attention to you ignorant diatribe?
In your second sentence, you say something that's completely disconnected from your first sentence. I'd ask how you could expect anyone to pay attention to your post, but there's nothing there to pay attention to.

[BlueTalon]

Yeah, since obviously having a bathroom for 8-year-old boys and girls is much more likely to have a child molester in it than one for boys and one for girls.
I don't know if you're intentionally being obtuse or if you're just missing the point.

Unisex bathrooms by themselves do not "cause" molestation, and any attempt by you to portray my previous post as saying that is a misrepresentation.

However, a unisex bathroom in the context of a school whose mission now specifically includes catering to gender confused kids is far more likely to invite it. If you don't get that, don't blame me. We're talking about children surrounded by adults who are encouraging and enabling them to explore and embrace their sexuality. Of course, the parents who would send their kids to a school like this might not consider molestation to be molestation, they might just consider it to be exploring their sexuality, so any legal action taken against the school might happen far later than if the parents were normal.

[Zguy28]

Many times we conservatives want to blame the assault on masculinity on liberals, but we must look at what the root of this problem is, and it is a problem. But it isn't caused by liberal activism. They are merely taking advantage of the opportunity afforded them. And can I blame them for that, even though I think its wrong? No, I cannot. This problem has a deeper root than a liberal agenda. It lies in greed and circumstance. Our society is rife with fathers who work too much or are dead beat and who don't set the right example to their children. Many mothers work long hours as well and aren't there for their kids to nurture them the way they need to be nurtured. Its sad really. I like to quote my mom on this "I hate World War 2, its what caused so many women to go to work, then they never went back. Now our economy is based on two income homes. That's why there are so many latchkey kids. " She's right in my opinion. Mothering is thankless job, but it is the highest calling. The government should pay mothers to raise there kids, its a 100 hour a week job at least. That's not to take away from many women who work hard everyday in their careers. But my point is this, busy-ness is the root of this problem and many others in our culture. We are too darned busy. And our kids are suffering the effects. We, as Americans, must determine what is good and what is best. We must do the best thing even if it means losing many good things.

But there is hope for those who believe that masculinity is a good thing. Over the last decade, the Metrosexual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrosexual) has become the most popular male stereotype. However, this is beginning to change. The traditional male stereotype of tough, rugged, and protective of those he loves but who are also tender, is making a comeback with men such as Antonio Davis (http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001208.cfm) of the NY Knicks. Davis jumped into the stands when he thought an intoxicated fan was harassing his wife. That's being a real man.

[skinsfan51]

Since you are specifically not asking about what the law says, I'm going to say it depends. If the girl has declared her independence, left home and struck out on her own, then she'd be a free moral agent. If she's still at home, living with the provision and support of her parents, then it's on her father's friends, and perhaps even her father.

If it were my friends and my 15 year old daughter, and I found out it was happening, I would introduce the men to part of my gun collection -- and if it continued, there'd be some dead bodies in the west Texas desert for the vultures to feed on.


But to be honest, I'm not convinced the girl was telling the truth.

Hmmm...I agree to a degree. I'm not willing to say that a girl is a free moral agent because she declares her independence. It's not an "automatic," and I still believe her parents are accountable for her actions. I think the law would side with me on that.

For example, if a 12 year old girl declares her independence, leaves home, and then goes to her hated enemy from school and kills her, what part of that blame goes on the parents? If they raised her right to begin with would that have ever happened? Certainly the girl has to pay for her actions, too. She pulled the trigger. But is she only to blame? Tough questions.

For me, none of us is really a free moral agent. We are in that God allows us to be individuals and make choices. But I agree with King Solomon who said: "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment." -Ecclesiastes 11:9

In other words, do what you want, but you'll be held accountable for your actions. It's that way in all of life. We reap what we sow for good or bad. Sow good, reap good. Sow bad, reap bad. It's a universal law.

None of use is totally free from accountability. In the end we will all answer to God.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Many times we conservatives want to blame the assault on masculinity on liberals, but we must look at what the root of this problem is, and it is a problem. But it isn't caused by liberal activism. They are merely taking advantage of the opportunity afforded them.

Actually, I believe the bigger assault is an assault on FEMININITY, not masculinity in this country. We've taken society's accepted role for women and totally turned it on its ear, overnight. Without any attempt to see what sort of detrimental effect those changes might have on American society. We essentially made women into Men and now have very few real women left in American society, especially in the younger age groups. As bad as it is now, it's just going to get worse.


But there is hope for those who believe that masculinity is a good thing. Over the last decade, the Metrosexual has become the most popular male stereotype.

Metrosexuality is kind of like liberalism... it's big in the major cities and nearly unheard of in the mainstream American society. It's not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be.

[PF Chang]

This thread needs The Alphabet of Manliness. (http://www.thealphabetofmanliness.com) :laugh:

[BlueTalon]

Hmmm...I agree to a degree. I'm not willing to say that a girl is a free moral agent because she declares her independence. It's not an "automatic," and I still believe her parents are accountable for her actions. I think the law would side with me on that.

For example, if a 12 year old girl declares her independence, leaves home, and then goes to her hated enemy from school and kills her, what part of that blame goes on the parents? If they raised her right to begin with would that have ever happened? Certainly the girl has to pay for her actions, too. She pulled the trigger. But is she only to blame? Tough questions.

For me, none of us is really a free moral agent. We are in that God allows us to be individuals and make choices. But I agree with King Solomon who said: "Rejoice, O young man, in thy youth; and let thy heart cheer thee in the days of thy youth, and walk in the ways of thine heart, and in the sight of thine eyes: but know thou, that for all these things God will bring thee into judgment." -Ecclesiastes 11:9

In other words, do what you want, but you'll be held accountable for your actions. It's that way in all of life. We reap what we sow for good or bad. Sow good, reap good. Sow bad, reap bad. It's a universal law.

None of use is totally free from accountability. In the end we will all answer to God.
Jeez, if you're going to ask the question asking us not to consider the law, then what's the point of addressing my post with appeals to the law?

You apparently didn't understand what I meant by free moral agent, which is someone who is free and has the authority to make choices. It has no meaning, hidden or otherwise, that a free moral agent is exempt from accountability or consequences.

You asked about a 15 year old girl having sex with older guys. My response was that if she was on her own and self supporting, and the law was no consideration, then she could make that choice. I didn't say it was a good choice. But what on earth does your 12 year old murderer girl have to do with anything? How does that address my point in any way?


I'm a Christian, and I agree that what goes around comes around. But it looks to me like you asked the question, not wanting an answer as anything other than an excuse to post some Bible verses.

[nelms]

After reading this thread, I feel like breaking out a bottle of Jack Daniels, putting on an old John Wayne movie and maybe going out later and kicking some hippie punk's ass.

[rincewind]

After reading this thread, I feel like breaking out a bottle of Jack Daniels, putting on an old John Wayne movie and maybe going out later and kicking some hippie punk's ass.



Bring it on, cowboy. :redpunch:

[Zguy28]

After reading this thread, I feel like breaking out a bottle of Jack Daniels, putting on an old John Wayne movie and maybe going out later and kicking some hippie punk's ass.Use a firehose. You can get more than one at a time!:silly: