Philosophical Discussion: What does Chivalry mean to YOU?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I'm taking a cue from skinsfan13's wonderful trio of "Intellectual Discussion" treads and would like to see the response to this philosophical question"

What does "Chivalry" mean to you?"

I would really like to see what people think of "Chivalry". In a historical sense, a modern sense, and what the differences between the two are. I would also open this discussion to the concepts of Bushido (Eastern Philosophy similar to Chivalry), and Courtly Love (a concept of romance that grew out of Chivalry).

Please Discuss.

[Burgold]

Well, in it's most basic sense Chivalry was a code of honor, a code of behavior generally between gentlemen and ladies of noble birth. The codes of Chivalry were often not extended to the peasants.

Modern Chivalry generally has come to mean showing good manners to a lady and putting her needs before your own.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

To me "Chivalry" is a philosophy of social activity and belief that humanity would be well off to try and emulate more than we do in today's world.

In historical context, chivalry is more than just the philosophy behind the Knightly orders of the Middle Ages. It was much more of a societal institution than that. It encompased both genders and both the Lords and Ladies of the Court were expected to follow the tenants of Chivalry or risk losing the favor of the monarchs. The virtues of Prowess, Courtesy, Justice, Humility, Nobility, Loyalty, Largesse, Honor, Faith, and Valour were expected of all who wished to be members of the Royal Court or attempted to earn the favor of their Majesties. Different cultures, monarchs, and knightly orders considered particular virtues more or less important than others, but all of them had similar lists of virtuous behavior that was expected of their followers.

Unfortunately, in todays day and age we don't even pay lip service to many of those virtues anywhere near as well as our medieval ancestors did. They may not have lived them very well, but at least they paid lip service to them. As a society, we don't even do that very much anymore; regardless of gender. Those people who do truly attempt to live that sort of code are often seen as being overly moralistic or stuck up. I won't say that Chivalry doesn't exist anymore, but it is truly a rare person who extoles the vast majority of those virtues in these modern times.

[Burgold]

I think we said basically the same thing. You just used more words :) I think there are a few remnants of the Chivalric code or proper behavior code. I do think manners and ettiquette has deteriorated greatly, though chivalry is greater than just that. I was raised very "Please" and "Thank you" and a lot of people seem not even to have those words in their vocabulary.

The ancillary question to this would be:

What would a modern Code of Chivalry look like? What would be the chivalric laws that we should adopt today?

[DeanCollins]

if chivalry is dead then this thread should sink rapidly :laugh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

The ancillary question to this would be:

What would a modern Code of Chivalry look like? What would be the chivalric laws that we should adopt today?

I think we already have a modern Code of Chivalry. It's been around for about 100 years now. Lord Baden Powell came up with it. It goes like this...

"A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent."

I think we could come up with another one that was a little more specific, but I think that's probably the most well known modern "Code of Chivalry" that we currently have in society.

Chivalric "Laws" never really existed, that I've ever read of. Chivalry was much more of a philosophical force than a Legal one.

[skinfan13]

Denotation: mideavel code of conduct


conotation: a set of moral and cultural standards that should be followed for the betterment of the general masses. chivalry can be as patriotic as volunteering to courageously defend you nation, or as simple as holding the door for someone, saying hello, or just brightening somone's day. others before self can be considered modern chivalry.

[OrangeSkin]

Chivalry was just a literary fantasy popularized by medieval authors like Chretien de Troyes and Marie de France. I tend to be of the belief that it is an entirely useless concept, and some of the lingering elements of chivalry are still damaging relationships today. The concept itself isn't dead, just changed.

The concept of chivalry has cost more lives than we can possibly fathom; a small vendetta which could be easily forgotten turns into an offense worthy of death because of some absurd code of valor. If anywhere, the non-romantic form of chivalry is more alive in the mafia and gangs than anywhere else. You wronged me, I kill you. That's chivalry for you, and that whole element and culture of violence has been romantacized beyond belief.

It has also always been a source of silly "masculinity", like in Erec and Enide when the newly wedded bride isn't permitted to speak to her husband on a journey, even if she is warning him of an impending attack. It disgusts me how the whole concept refuses to see men and women as equal, but rather sees women as pitiful objects which need to be placed on a pedestal and "cared for". Yes, I support holding doors for women and other such undertakings, but that isn't chivalry, its common courtesy.

As far as today, the concept of courtly love still lingers, and it has done more to force up the divorce rate than anything else. Many women expect to be "swept off their feet", fall in love instantly, and live happily ever after. It just doesn't happen this way, and it leads to a lot of dissapointment and multiple marriages. A lot of intelligent people have done good work trying to eradicate this concept, but there is still a long way to go.

[dreamingwolf]

tipping the hooker

[Winslowalrob]

tipping the hooker

Dang man talk about above and beyond. I don't give Miguel one cent more than I owe his hot latin ass.

[mboyd784]

Chivalry, in a nutshell, is action, not words. Humility, Compassion, and Performance for the general welfare.

And tipping the hooker, so she leaves!

[Thiebear]

Opening the car/establishment door.
Walking on the street side of the sidewalk.
etc

[Mr. S]

I would say I believe in chivalry, to an extent.

In the past, it was a romantic view of the life of Kings and Knights, and it makes for a good story. While I'm sure many of these nobles and rulers acted along the principles of chivalry, im sure many didn't as well. I guess chivalry and "courting" a girl would not work well with womanizing, yet im sure womanizing happened especially by the nobles. For living in a Catholic and later Protestant environments, I doubt EVERYONE followed the codes well.

So I guess in modern times, the same holds true. People would like to live by those ideals, but it does not always happen that way. In that sense, I really don't see too many differences between now and then. Honor is still as hard to find now as before, same as virtue, etc....

It doesn't help either that people are made to believe being "nice" is bad, whether in regards to women, career, politics, etc....

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Chivalry was just a literary fantasy popularized by medieval authors like Chretien de Troyes and Marie de France. I tend to be of the belief that it is an entirely useless concept, and some of the lingering elements of chivalry are still damaging relationships today. The concept itself isn't dead, just changed.

I would definitely disagree. Chivalry was a real concept in the Middle Ages. I won't claim it was any easier for the people of that period to actually live by than it is for us today, but it wasn't the fairy tale you seem to envision either. I think there's a lot of good to the concept of Chivalry and that the good outweighs the bad of it. Just my thoughts on it, though.


The concept of chivalry has cost more lives than we can possibly fathom; a small vendetta which could be easily forgotten turns into an offense worthy of death because of some absurd code of valor. If anywhere, the non-romantic form of chivalry is more alive in the mafia and gangs than anywhere else. You wronged me, I kill you. That's chivalry for you, and that whole element and culture of violence has been romantacized beyond belief.

I will have to disagree again. If the concept of Honor was a little more prevelant in today's society, I think we'd be a lot better off. Obviously the idea of conducting a fued, or involving oneself in a duel over the slightest thing is somewhat overkill, but the idea that a person should be judged at least in part by their honor is something I'd like to see come back into our culture.


It has also always been a source of silly "masculinity", like in Erec and Enide when the newly wedded bride isn't permitted to speak to her husband on a journey, even if she is warning him of an impending attack. It disgusts me how the whole concept refuses to see men and women as equal, but rather sees women as pitiful objects which need to be placed on a pedestal and "cared for". Yes, I support holding doors for women and other such undertakings, but that isn't chivalry, its common courtesy.

I think you're looking at something else and calling it Chivalry. In fact, the concept of Chivalry extended to both genders, and in most cases taught that the Lady was an important part of the equation. It put more of the responsibilities of the Lord, but it didn't exclude the Lady from certain responsibilities either. I understand that we don't look at or discuss that part of Chivalry very often, but it was there when you actually sit down and look at things.


As far as today, the concept of courtly love still lingers, and it has done more to force up the divorce rate than anything else. Many women expect to be "swept off their feet", fall in love instantly, and live happily ever after. It just doesn't happen this way, and it leads to a lot of dissapointment and multiple marriages. A lot of intelligent people have done good work trying to eradicate this concept, but there is still a long way to go.

That's because people don't understand the concept of "courtly love". They don't understand that like Chivalry, it was a two-way street. The Lady had as many responsibilities in the relationship as the Lord did. But those things don't fit into our current "feminist" mentality when it comes to relationships. Personally, I think if more people bought into some of the concepts of "courtly love" we'd be better off. But that's just me.

[cjcdaman]

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/959/maxbleeds2hq7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Burgold]

Gladiator was actually pre-chivalric :)

[G-Prime]

I be slappin bitches with my glove when it be time to tho down.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Gladiator was actually pre-chivalric :)

True. By about half a millenium. However, I think the Maximus character is a good one to show the sorts of virtues that Chivalry was supposed to be about.

[TODD]

True. By about half a millenium. However, I think the Maximus character is a good one to show the sorts of virtues that Chivalry was supposed to be about.

Which is strange because the Renaissance (in its revival these Roman ideas of exaltedness and personal glory) all but killed chivalric notions of free love.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Which is strange because the Renaissance (in its revival these Roman ideas of exaltedness and personal glory) all but killed chivalric notions of free love.

You're correct. The Middle Ages are an interesting time to look at, when you see them between the Golden Era of the Roman Empire and the Renaissance, when so many of those Roman ideas returned to prominance. Chivalry did take a huge hit during the Renaissance, but was kept alive in poetry, song, and verse. In fact Chivalry has outlasted some of the Renaissance concepts in the minds and hearts of many people.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Chivalry = honor and selflessness.

[Air Force Cane]

You know the show that demonstrates chivalry to its greatest extent right now?

amazingly enough, it is "Friday Night Lights"...

the players say "yes sir, no sir". the girls even say "yes ma'am".

it is about a group fighting for each other. the concept of honor is very strong- retaliation for group affronts.

when Riggins betrays his best friend, the other members of the team smash his car as punishment. loyalty is strongly promoted. fatherly morality is promoted. religion is promoted in many different ways. betrayal and loyalty in relationships.

strength of family (saracen taking care of his grandmother). martial prowess (again saracen's father is in the military serving in Iraq)

it is in the South that chivalry still exists. the northeast has been a pit for a generation now..

[TD_washingtonredskins]

You know the show that demonstrates chivalry to its greatest extent right now?

amazingly enough, it is "Friday Night Lights"...

the players say "yes sir, no sir". the girls even say "yes ma'am".

it is about a group fighting for each other. the concept of honor is very strong- retaliation for group affronts.

when Riggins betrays his best friend, the other members of the team smash his car as punishment. loyalty is strongly promoted. fatherly morality is promoted. religion is promoted in many different ways. betrayal and loyalty in relationships.

strength of family (saracen taking care of his grandmother). martial prowess (again saracen's father is in the military serving in Iraq)

it is in the South that chivalry still exists. the northeast has been a pit for a generation now..

Plus, it's hands down the best show on TV.

[Air Force Cane]

I agree that it is a great show. which is pretty shocking.

one would think it is a teeny bopper show. but in reality, it is one of the most mature shows I have ever seen.

discussing alzheimers and its affects. talking about the role of religion in these young adults lives. cheating (in a relationship and steroids), morality, honor.

also for one of the first times having a handicapped person as the main character is shocking. family virtues. football.

INTENSE..