NYT: Squad Leader Charged in Killings of 24 Iraqi Civilians

[chomerics]

This should be interesting. I would like to know the real story behind this incident.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Marines-Haditha.html?hp&ex=1166763600&en=b2919b60123f74e9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. (AP) -- Eight Marines were charged Thursday in the killings of 24 Iraqi civilians last year during a bloody, door-to-door sweep in the town of Haditha that came after one of their comrades was killed by a roadside bomb.

In the biggest U.S. criminal case involving civilian deaths to come out of the Iraq war, four of the Marines -- all enlisted men -- were charged with unpremeditated murder.

The other four were officers who were not there during the killings but were accused of failures in investigating and reporting the deaths.

The most serious charges were brought against Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, a 26-year-old squad leader accused of murdering 12 civilians and ordering the murders of six more inside a house cleared by his squad. He was accused of telling his men to ''shoot first and ask questions later,'' according to court papers released by his attorney.

The highest-ranking defendant was Lt. Col. Jeffrey Chessani, 42. He was accused of failing to obey an order or regulation, encompassing dereliction of duty.

At a news conference to announce the charges, military officials would not say what they believe prompted the killings. But investigators have raised the possibility that the men went on a rampage in a fury over the roadside bombing that killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso, Texas, and wounded two other Marines.

Defense attorneys have disputed that, saying their clients were doing what they had been trained to do: responding to a perceived threat with legitimate force.

Terrazas' father denounced the charges, saying his son was murdered by insurgents. ''What they are doing to our troops ... it's just wrong,'' Martin Terrazas said in Texas. ''I feel for their families. They are in my prayers.''

Wuterich and two comrades charged with murder could get life in prison. The military is not seeking the death penalty. The other men face shorter prison sentences.

The Marine Corps initially reported that 15 Iraqis died in a roadside bomb blast and that Marines killed eight insurgents in an ensuing firefight. That account was widely discredited, and later reports put the number of dead Iraqis at 24.

A criminal probe was launched after Time magazine reported in March, citing survivor accounts and human rights groups, that innocent people were killed.

Lt. Gen. James Mattis, commanding general of the Marine Corps Central Command, said Thursday that the Corps' initial news release, which stated that the civilians in Haditha had been killed by an improvised explosive device, was incorrect.

''We now know with certainty that the press release was incorrect, and that none of the civilians were killed by the IED explosion,'' Mattis said.

As word spread that charges were imminent, some Iraqis said Thursday that American troops should face justice in Iraq.

''They committed a horrible crime against innocents,'' Naji al-Ani, a 36-year-old laborer, said by telephone from Haditha.

Other residents of Haditha agreed.

''Are they terrorists or are they fighting terrorism?'' said Jamal al-Obaidi, a 40-year-old teacher. ''The trial is not fair because it is taking place in America. Executing them is the minimum penalty.''

Besides Wuterich, Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz, 24, was accused of the unpremeditated murders of five people and making a false statement. Lance Cpl. Justin Sharratt, 22, of Carbondale, Pa., was charged with the unpremeditated murder of three Iraqis. Lance Cpl. Stephen Tatum, 25, of Edmund, Okla., was accused of the unpremeditated murders of two Iraqis, negligent homicide of four Iraqis and assault.

The other officers charged were 1st Lt. Andrew Grayson, 25, Capt. Lucas McConnell, 31, and Capt. Randy Stone, 34, a military attorney.

The men are not being locked up for now because they are unlikely to flee and are not a danger to themselves or others, said Col. Stewart Navarre, a Corps spokesman.

In Meriden, Conn., Frank Wuterich's father, Dave, said his son was out Christmas shopping. The father said family members believe his son's version of events.

''He says they followed the rules of engagement,'' Dave Wuterich said. ''They were taking small arms fire. They did what they had to do.''

[Redskins Diehard]

This should be interesting. I would like to know the real story behind this incident.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Marines-Haditha.html?hp&ex=1166763600&en=b2919b60123f74e9&ei=5094&partner=homepage

In your mind how do you see the "real" story unfolding? I bet it isn't far from what they are being accused of, if different at all.

[Larry]

I want the TRUTH

:)

[twa]

I want the TRUTH

:)


You can't handle the TRUTH...Sorry, couldn't help myself :security:

[tizzod]

In your mind how do you see the "real" story unfolding? I bet it isn't far from what they are being accused of, if different at all.

You are a soldier, no? So if you say that, I am inclined to be behind you. Normally, there are three sides to a story. Yours, theirs, and the truth. So it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Sorry, but I don't take the New York Times to be ANY kind of authority when it comes to something like this. It doesn't get much more left than them. We will see how it all shakes out.

Here's hoping we can get some semblance of truth out of this.

I am so torn, though. It's so easy to sit here and judge and say how those soldiers should be prosecuted and put away for a very long time for what they did. But on the other hand, we aren't in that situation. I can't even imagine the stress those men and women are under. They don't know who they are fighting, and they are handcuffed with the rules of engagement, it seems. I couldn't even imagine the stress. And, I would venture to guess, neither could at least 90% of the people who are reading this.

It's just not possible for me to say anything one way or another. I am not able to put myself in that situation so I have no idea what I would do, but at the same time, I can see why the soldiers would do what they did. It's such a slippery slope. I think I will leave it up to the professionals.

The things those soldiers do, day in and day out, is just mind-boggling to me. The things they deal with. God love every one of 'em. Every one.

[dreamingwolf]

congrats chom

[skinsmatic]

"Not locked up because they are not a danger to anyone"



Why didn't they just say, That all 24 victims looked like they had weapons in their hands.

It works for the police. They got the wrong public affairs person there, the Military needs to hire the LAPD, NYC police department PA team.

[dreamingwolf]

"Not locked up because they are not a danger to anyone"



Why didn't they just say, That all 24 victims looked like they had weapons in their hands.

It works for the police. They got the wrong public affairs person there, the Military needs to hire the LAPD, NYC police department PA team.

rock on, death to authority!

[nuposse87]

hypothetically, what if the squad leader is guilty? what is the military punishment for this type of situation?

[Redskins Diehard]

hypothetically, what if the squad leader is guilty? what is the military punishment for this type of situation?

From the article:

"Wuterich and two comrades charged with murder could get life in prison. The military is not seeking the death penalty. The other men face shorter prison sentences."

[Redskins Diehard]

You are a soldier, no? So if you say that, I am inclined to be behind you. Normally, there are three sides to a story. Yours, theirs, and the truth. So it will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Sorry, but I don't take the New York Times to be ANY kind of authority when it comes to something like this. It doesn't get much more left than them. We will see how it all shakes out.

Here's hoping we can get some semblance of truth out of this.

I am so torn, though. It's so easy to sit here and judge and say how those soldiers should be prosecuted and put away for a very long time for what they did. But on the other hand, we aren't in that situation. I can't even imagine the stress those men and women are under. They don't know who they are fighting, and they are handcuffed with the rules of engagement, it seems. I couldn't even imagine the stress. And, I would venture to guess, neither could at least 90% of the people who are reading this.

It's just not possible for me to say anything one way or another. I am not able to put myself in that situation so I have no idea what I would do, but at the same time, I can see why the soldiers would do what they did. It's such a slippery slope. I think I will leave it up to the professionals.

The things those soldiers do, day in and day out, is just mind-boggling to me. The things they deal with. God love every one of 'em. Every one.

When I said the truth isn't far from what they are being accused of I did not mean the news media accounts of what they are being accused of.

Your willingness to not judge is admirable. While I was not in their specific situation, I was in the same general situation. Friends getting killed by an unseen enemy. Sure the first inclination is to seek revenge on anyone and anything. Everything starts to look the same, and it all looks like the enemy. Clear heads recognize that that is not the case. I sympathize with these men, but I definitely do not think they deserve a get out of jail free card.

[Tarhog]

I'll reserve judgement until I hear more about this incident, but it certainly sounds bad.

One thing I'll point out, the article identifies a Staff Sergeant as the squad leader. In Marine Infantry, the squad leader is almost always a corporal or sergeant. A Staff Sergeant would generally be responsible for an entire platoon, not a squad. A Staff Sergeant squad leader is unheard of. Just doesn't happen.

Its inaccuracies or (at best) misleading details like this that a) make me wonder if the writer knows much about the military he is 'reporting' on, and b) makes me question the validity and accuracy of all of the other facts in the story.

I'm not saying the gist of whats being purported to have happened didn't happen. It just points out that important details in these types of complex situations frequently get glossed over or inaccurately stated. The Staff Sergeant was leading a combat patrol. It was squad-sized apparently. He was not a 'squad leader'. That might seem like nitpicking of an incredibly minute detail. But it matters. The Marines on that patrol were being led by a Platoon Sergeant - who to those guys represents God. When he says 'move' you move. Of course every Marine has the obligation to follow the rules of engagement and act accordingly with the Law of War - no matter who's issuing orders. But knowing that this Staff Sergeant was not some minor guy in the chain of command but for all intents and purposes THE leader of the unit, is an important detail in the chain of events that occured.

PS - my credentials are a 10 year Marine Infantry career including combat service.

[Tarhog]

When I said the truth isn't far from what they are being accused of I did not mean the news media accounts of what they are being accused of.

Your willingness to not judge is admirable. While I was not in their specific situation, I was in the same general situation. Friends getting killed by an unseen enemy. Sure the first inclination is to seek revenge on anyone and anything. Everything starts to look the same, and it all looks like the enemy. Clear heads recognize that that is not the case. I sympathize with these men, but I definitely do not think they deserve a get out of jail free card.

Very apt statement of how tough it is to respond in an urban combat situation, particularly in an insurgency environment.

The other thing that no one who hasn't 'been there' can really appreciate is the chaotic environment you're operating in, and how quickly you are frequently forced to assess the situation, determine whats going on, and react. One of the Marine Corps Infantry 'edicts' is that he who responds quickest and most violently to a situation in combat, almost always wins. Unfortunately, that means responding without full information at times - and this kind of thing can result. Its very sad. And I am not making excuses for anyone.

These Marines and soldiers are in a very tough environment though, and deserve every benefit of the doubt.

[Redskins Diehard]

These Marines and soldiers are in a very tough environment though, and deserve every benefit of the doubt.

I absolutely agree with giving them the benefit of the doubt. But also believe that if they did what they are accused of, then they must be punished, as unfortunate as that is. The same applies to the Mahmudiyah and Abu Graib situations.

Regarding your earlier post, I saw more than a few instances of Soldiers and Marines being promoted in rank, but left in position. This could be a case of that, or a platoon sergeant leading a patrol(which is also fairly common).

[Sarge]

These Marines and soldiers are in a very tough environment though, and deserve every benefit of the doubt.

Unfortunately there are too many leftists that have never lifted a pinky to defend the country ready to sell these guys down the road

[Redskins Diehard]

Unfortunately there are too many leftists that have never lifted a pinky to defend the country ready to sell these guys down the road

I am hardly a lefty, and have lifted my pinky's a couple of times to defend the country. I still do not think that we should tolerate murder by our servicemen. This is not the NY Times investigating and charging these guys, it is the USMC and Department of the Navy.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

There is never any excuse for intentionally taking the lives of children IMO.

[Redskins Diehard]

There is never any excuse for intentionally taking the lives of children IMO.

I guess you have never seen a child with an AK, or grenade. Or even worse yet, standing in front of an ****** with the above mentioned weapons. There are times when it is necessary to take the lives of children and women, as unpleasant and unnatural as it may be.

[skinsmatic]

I guess you have never seen a child with an AK, or grenade. Or even worse yet, standing in front of an ****** with the above mentioned weapons. There are times when it is necessary to take the lives of children and women, as unpleasant and unnatural as it may be.

Where does it say in that article that these people where armed. So what the are you talking about

[Redskins Diehard]

I guess you have never seen a child with an AK, or grenade. Or even worse yet, standing in front of an ****** with the above mentioned weapons. There are times when it is necessary to take the lives of children and women, as unpleasant and unnatural as it may be.

Where does it say in that article that these people where armed. So what the are you talking about

The statement my post was in response to said that there was never a reason and there clearly are. Whether it is a reason in this specific situation or not is irrelevent when discussing an absolute statement.

[skinsmatic]

I agree, I thought it was in reference to this situation.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I guess you have never seen a child with an AK, or grenade. Or even worse yet, standing in front of an ****** with the above mentioned weapons. There are times when it is necessary to take the lives of children and women, as unpleasant and unnatural as it may be.
You got that. It should have read "taking the lives of INNOCENT children" but eh the comment was made in the context of this thread and this story so I figured it would have been understood. My bad for assuming...

[Zuck]

I guess you have never seen a child with an AK, or grenade. Or even worse yet, standing in front of an ****** with the above mentioned weapons. There are times when it is necessary to take the lives of children and women, as unpleasant and unnatural as it may be.


That's true. If someone is attacking you than you have every right to respond.

However these soldiers are charged with murder. Meaning they are charged with killing unarmed civilians knowingly.

They'll have their day in court and if it turns out they had some reason to act like they did they'll be acquitted. If not they'll be found rightfully guilty of murder.

[Redskins Diehard]

That's true. If someone is attacking you than you have every right to respond.

However these soldiers are charged with murder. Meaning they are charged with killing unarmed civilians knowingly.

They'll have their day in court and if it turns out they had some reason to act like they did they'll be acquitted. If not they'll be found rightfully guilty of murder.

They are Marines, not Soldiers. I know the term is used branch non-specific but it is an insult to those of us on both sides!

Lets hope it plays out that way.

[Zuck]

They are Marines, not Soldiers. I know the term is used branch non-specific but it is an insult to those of us on both sides!

Lets hope it plays out that way.


You don't like the word soldier? I never realized that wasn't a politically correct word.

[Redskins Diehard]

You don't like the word soldier? I never realized that wasn't a politically correct word.

Soldiers don't like to be called Marines, Marines don't like to be called Soldiers. It is not politically incorrect though.