Immigration Proposal Would Increase the Number Eligible to Apply for Citizenship

[Fergasun]

Congress (Senate) Ready to Pass Amnesty (again) (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238861,00.html)

WASHINGTON — Legislation reportedly being developed ahead of Congress' return next week aims to expand the number of illegal immigrants that could become eligible for citizenship beyond the estimated 7 million given the opportunity in a bill that won Senate support earlier this year but fell in the House.

The bill would mark a significant shift in immigration strategy because it would abandon a requirement that would force illegal immigrants to leave the country before they can apply for U.S. citizenship, according to a report Tuesday in the New York Times. Changing that provision would make the initial number of immigrants eligible to apply for citizenship about 10 million or more.

Happens every 2 years from those weasels in Washington. I don't know when it happened, but I'd like to know why they the value of American citizenship is being so cheapened. Normally you don't allow people who break your rules/laws to stay, let alone give them citizenship.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Congress (Senate) Ready to Pass Amnesty (again) (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238861,00.html)



Happens every 2 years from those weasels in Washington. I don't know when it happened, but I'd like to know why they the value of American citizenship is being so cheapened. Normally you don't allow people who break your rules/laws to stay, let alone give them citizenship.
Unless you're Ronald Reagan.

Edit: You know what I'm done arguing about this with people so don't even bother responding to me. I'm done arguing politics period. I've said my piece on this before and I've said my reasons for what I believe. So go ahead and deport everyone. See what happens. Remember though, be careful of what you wish for.

[Fergasun]

Who said anything about deporting everyone? My preferable idea is:
1) Enforce current laws on the books. This would mean a lot stronger border enforcement and workplace enforcement. Even though border enforcement starts it at the source, the government doesn't really do anything to people who employ undocumented workers.
2) See what type of impact this has.
3) If needed adjust the immigration caps.

If that doesn't get passed then I'm all for keeping the status quo (which is what happened 2004-2006). If you are willing to take the risk of coming into this country, than for the rest of your life, you and your family should live in fear of deportation.

It's just odd that the issue in the 2006 election was Iraq, yet they are stumbling over themselves dealing with this immigration issue too... but that wasn't the KEY ISSUE OF THE MID-TERM ELECTION... was it?

It was all about Iraq and Corruption... and this cheap labor thing seems a lot like congresspeople colluding with big business to ensure labor costs stay low... nothing corrupt now, eh?

If they want to do anything about immigration reform the CURRENT system, and then see what happens in 2 years again... baby steps. I'm not in any mood to get into a flame war.

[B.Lloyd]

I pray that this doesn't happen.

[GSF]

Who said anything about deporting everyone? My preferable idea is:
1) Enforce current laws on the books. This would mean a lot stronger border enforcement and workplace enforcement. Even though border enforcement starts it at the source, the government doesn't really do anything to people who employ undocumented workers.
2) See what type of impact this has.
3) If needed adjust the immigration caps.



Nice plan dude. :laugh: See what happens? Your plan puts a lot of American businesses out of business.

There is a reason why the government doesn't enforce immigration laws with employers.

[DjTj]

Who said anything about deporting everyone? My preferable idea is:
1) Enforce current laws on the books. This would mean a lot stronger border enforcement and workplace enforcement. Even though border enforcement starts it at the source, the government doesn't really do anything to people who employ undocumented workers. The current laws say to deport everyone so "enforce current laws on the books" would mean massive deportation.
2) See what type of impact this has.
3) If needed adjust the immigration caps. Reagan basically did this but in reverse order. They gave amnesty to everyone already in the country, they raised the immigration caps, they changed the laws so that there were harsher punishments, and they waited to see what impact it had: the result was that people kept coming illegally and they were unable to enforce their harsher laws. We're still stuck in that scenario: our laws say to deport everyone but we don't have the resources to do that.

If that doesn't get passed then I'm all for keeping the status quo (which is what happened 2004-2006). If you are willing to take the risk of coming into this country, than for the rest of your life, you and your family should live in fear of deportation.
You're right that the status quo actually works okay from an economic standpoint - the labor market has reached an equilibrium where people willing to take the risks come to America, giving us some of the most determined and ambitious workers to fill jobs at a lower wage than employers might otherwise have to pay. The problem is the national security issue - nobody is real comfortable with millions of people coming into the country that the government can't account for.

It's just odd that the issue in the 2006 election was Iraq, yet they are stumbling over themselves dealing with this immigration issue too... but that wasn't the KEY ISSUE OF THE MID-TERM ELECTION... was it?
I think what happenned is that it didn't really divide candidates in many elections. There are significant numbers of Republicans in favor of immigration reform and significant numbers of Democrats opposed to any kind of amnesty. The division is more geographic than along party lines so that in some districts, there were pro-reform Republicans running against pro-reform Democrats, and in other places there were anti-amnesty Republicans running against anti-amnesty Democrats. That made it a non-issue.

[GSF]

Immigration reform will happen at some point. It is inevitable.

[Fergasun]

Immigration reform will happen at some point. It is inevitable.

The problem that I have with the current discussion is that we did this in 1986 and are stuck with the same problem. When Reagan implemented his version of Immigration Reform (IRCA, 1986), which also amounted to a similar amnesty, it was promised to come with strick border enforcement and workplace enforcement. This never happened.

As a citizen and believer of America the democracy, which has been ingrained into me from the start, I wonder, who is in control? The citizens want tougher border enforcement, FINE. Give us tougher border enforcement. But don't force us to accept amnesty. Why should it be comprehensive? Why couldn't they have implemented the tougher border enforcement that was voted on in the fence act? And now they are talkin about de-funding the 700 mile fence? What type of a democracy is it that we can undue what the will of the people was less than a year ago?

It makes me who is in control? Not just the border issue, but even abortion. I'm a Christian, I don't like Roe versus Wade, I'm not for any abortions. But anyone, Christian or not can see that the country is equally divided 50-50 on the abortion issue. Why do politicians keep bringing it up? Couldn't Bush have said, "I'm a Christian, I don't want abortions, but we live in a country that allows them. I'm going to do everything I can to CONVINCE and EDUCATE people on how bad abortion is... but I'm not going to shove my believes down the throat of Americans who don't want it."

Why can't politicians just focus on some small thing to improve the lives of simple people? The same thing with health care. Everyone wants me to believe our health system is broken... maybe it is... but in spite of that are we in the middle of a raging health crises that necesitates government health care for all? I think part of the reason is that American people are somewhat stupid, and we want to eat our McDonalds and have cheap health care too.... well guess what... we can't!

Now, you make think immigration, abortion, and health care are unrelated... but I have somewhat of a unified theory. All the abortions going on for the past 30 years? They've diminished the work force to the point that we need undocumented workers. The undocumented workers have put a strain on health care because even if they don't have health insurance... they all know to go to the emergency rooms for free care (there was some study in CA that basically said this anyway). Since our emergency rooms cannot deny care, even a simple cold or flu, they are drained either way.

I don't know what the point of all this ranting, but in some sense I think we should be smarter than to think we need some stupid ****ing jackass in Congress trying to run our lives, take our money, and tell us what is right for our country, and the same is true of stupid judges. Does it make sense that our emergency room cannot deny care to people without health insurance? Under some conditions, e-m-e-r-g-e-n-c-y yes, that's true. But to someone who is not going to die?

I just think some things are ridiculous... more than abortions, our health care system, our immigration system, or economy... it's our political system that is broken... and I'm not sure too many people really give a damn.... which is pretty sad.

Seriously, are the crime and murder rates so low that it's not the number one issue? Do we really have to reform immigration? Is the fact that we're wasting so much money on Iraq and other areas?

I really feel like this country is quickly going into the toilet, and it's not because of immigrants. It's because of short-sighted leaders who only see 2 years down the line.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Make all illegal citizens take the Citizenship test, if they fail it, ship them back. What's so hard about that? :laugh:

[Thiebear]

when they figure out they will legalize xyz and say 7 million is when we all find out (notice we is Congress)...
25 million is the real number...

[GSF]

Now, you make think immigration, abortion, and health care are unrelated... but I have somewhat of a unified theory. All the abortions going on for the past 30 years? They've diminished the work force to the point that we need undocumented workers.

Fergasun,
I have read your posts before, and I can see that you are very intelligent and passionate about your beliefs, but unfortunately you just aren't well informed. I suggest you take some time to really research issues that are important to you instead of forming these theories.

For example, there were 2 programs on TV just last night that really gave a good inside look into the immigration issues that face our country. One of the programs dealt with a construction company in Colorado. The owner explained how dependent his company is on undocumented workers, and how many other companies in Colorado were as well. He basically said that without undocumented workers, his company would be out of business and Colorado would be in big economic trouble.

The other program followed border patrol along the border. The patrolmen were explaining how the wall would be a huge waste of money, how and none of the border communities wanted the wall. They would much rather have some of that money to improve living conditions in their communities. Did you know that the proposed wall will cost $1million per mile. At 2000 miles, that's 2 billion dollars. Also, how's going to build the darn thing? Whatare we going to do, hire illegals to build the wall and then toss them over it when they're done?

Amercian leaders know how much we've become dependent on these folks. The problem is they also know the the vast majority of the American public don't understand or accept the situation. So instead of having the guts to come out and say we need to reform and fix this thing so it's better for everybody, they propose rediculous bills that would in effect send them all back when they know damn well their proposals will never pass. Ever notice that these anti-illegal bills always die at the last minute? It's b/c the business leaders shut them down.

The worst part about this huge charade is that we are exploiting the Mexican people. These folks are dying in the desert every day just trying to get here for a $9 an hour job, and then when they get here we sell them cars and liscense plates but no drivers liscenses so we can arrest them when it's convenient.

The situation is very complicated and a huge mess, and it's going to take some strong leadership to straighten out, but eventually it will happen. There are so many illegals here now, soon it will be impossible to just look the other way.

[DCsportsfan53]

Nice plan dude. :laugh: See what happens? Your plan puts a lot of American businesses out of business.

There is a reason why the government doesn't enforce immigration laws with employers.


Bingo! Everyone is fine being hard asses with the foreigners but they turn a blind eye to the fact that they wouldn't be here if we weren't hiring them. The gov't turns a blind eye to illegal practices by businesses in that matter just as much as the immigrants. Somehow, I doubt people are as militant about our poor laws being broken when it comes to those businesses as they are with the immigrants themselves. They just want to work, the businesses are the ones choosing not to pay Americans good wages so they can underpay illegals instead, there's the root of your problem.

[Fergasun]

I'm fully aware of many claims of business. I think it's a lot of fear mongering and am skeptical of how much prices would rise without cheap labor.

If there are 10, 15, or 25 million people here illegaly in this country, don't they need houses, grocery stores, restaurants, etc. Don't they create their own market to serve themselves? I think that's part of the problem. If that many people leave, they would also take the jobs that serve themselves.

One of the things a country needs to be successful is a rising middle class that has earning power, and we are losing that base here in America because more jobs are moving from middle to lower class. How did we ever survive in the 80s and 70s when we paid our construction workers so much? I know one of the problems with my solution is the risk that I underestimate the economic impact.

One thing I don't understand. What will keep business people from hiring more illegals after more of the current ones get legalized? Isn't it just an endless cycle that keeps on propogating?

[chomerics]

The problem that I have with the current discussion is that we did this in 1986 and are stuck with the same problem. When Reagan implemented his version of Immigration Reform (IRCA, 1986), which also amounted to a similar amnesty, it was promised to come with strick border enforcement and workplace enforcement. This never happened.

It was expected never to be enforced. It was nothing more then placating to a base of supporters and showing them that DC actually did something about the problem, while never intending to do anything about it. The problem is business relies on illegal immigrants, and congress knows this. If they start to deport the people, they will hurt the economy.



As a citizen and believer of America the democracy, which has been ingrained into me from the start, I wonder, who is in control? The citizens want tougher border enforcement, FINE. Give us tougher border enforcement. But don't force us to accept amnesty. Why should it be comprehensive? Why couldn't they have implemented the tougher border enforcement that was voted on in the fence act? And now they are talkin about de-funding the 700 mile fence? What type of a democracy is it that we can undue what the will of the people was less than a year ago?

You live in a representative democracy, and if you don;t like what you see, contact your congressman. They are your key, as an individual, to right the laws. Just because you have an opinion on the topic does not mean everyone has the same opinion, and yes, i think the fence was a joke of an idea. Just a waste of taxpayers money.



It makes me who is in control? Not just the border issue, but even abortion. I'm a Christian, I don't like Roe versus Wade, I'm not for any abortions. But anyone, Christian or not can see that the country is equally divided 50-50 on the abortion issue. Why do politicians keep bringing it up? Couldn't Bush have said, "I'm a Christian, I don't want abortions, but we live in a country that allows them. I'm going to do everything I can to CONVINCE and EDUCATE people on how bad abortion is... but I'm not going to shove my believes down the throat of Americans who don't want it."

You don't like abortion, fine, don't have one. That is the beauty of America. Nobody is forcing you to have an abortion, nobody tells you that you can not have a baby. . .and BTW, the numbers are not 50/50 at all. You need to understand the facts surrounding abortion. There are many who do not believe in it, but think it should be legal. The numbers are more like 75%-25% for legal/illegal. heck, you saying that you are not going to force your views down someone's throat puts you in the 75% group that says abortions should be legal.



Why can't politicians just focus on some small thing to improve the lives of simple people?

They do, those politicians are called democrats ;)



The same thing with health care. Everyone wants me to believe our health system is broken... maybe it is... but in spite of that are we in the middle of a raging health crises that necesitates government health care for all? I think part of the reason is that American people are somewhat stupid, and we want to eat our McDonalds and have cheap health care too.... well guess what... we can't!

Our health care system is out of whack, because it is out pacing inflation by a wide margin. The same with college. Something needs to be done. I want to see what happens to my state on health care, and go from there. We have a state program which pays for health care for all of our citizens. If we can make it work, then it would be a decent model for the government to follow.



Now, you make think immigration, abortion, and health care are unrelated... but I have somewhat of a unified theory. All the abortions going on for the past 30 years? They've diminished the work force to the point that we need undocumented workers. The undocumented workers have put a strain on health care because even if they don't have health insurance... they all know to go to the emergency rooms for free care (there was some study in CA that basically said this anyway). Since our emergency rooms cannot deny care, even a simple cold or flu, they are drained either way.

I don't know what the point of all this ranting, but in some sense I think we should be smarter than to think we need some stupid ****ing jackass in Congress trying to run our lives, take our money, and tell us what is right for our country, and the same is true of stupid judges. Does it make sense that our emergency room cannot deny care to people without health insurance? Under some conditions, e-m-e-r-g-e-n-c-y yes, that's true. But to someone who is not going to die?

Yes, it does make sense that our health system can not turn someone away. If they have a broken arm, what should they do? A compound fracture, and they are screwed? Think about it for a second, which is better to society, fixing an arm, or pushing someone into crime? If he works for a living with his hands, his only recourse would be to go to dealing drugs or crime to make money. He can't fix his arm, so what should he do? There is a reason we don't turn people away, and it is not like people go to the emergency room for the sniffles anyway.



I just think some things are ridiculous... more than abortions, our health care system, our immigration system, or economy... it's our political system that is broken... and I'm not sure too many people really give a damn.... which is pretty sad.

Seriously, are the crime and murder rates so low that it's not the number one issue? Do we really have to reform immigration? Is the fact that we're wasting so much money on Iraq and other areas?

I really feel like this country is quickly going into the toilet, and it's not because of immigrants. It's because of short-sighted leaders who only see 2 years down the line.

I think our country has finally seen the light, and is in the process of removing those from power who have abused it. You are going to see changes both in Washington and on the local level in the near future when the dems gain control. They will HOPEFULLY fix some of the mess created by Bush & co. and get our country back on track.

[Destino]

No immigration plan works that doesn't cover all the bases at the same time.

- What to do with the people already here?
- What to do about illegals that will come here after legislation?
- What to do about the growing need for labor when immigration quotas are too low to satify this need?
- How do you stop illegals from entering the country?
- What do you do to stop employers from hiring illegals and creating an incentive for more to come?

If you don't solve all of the above the plan fails.

Personally I think the following:

- The people here need to be heavily fined and allowed to gain legal status only if they can hold a job for 5 consecutive years, pass a written and oral English exam at the end of that period, and hold no serious criminal record other then their current undocumented status.

- Immigration quotas should be drawn up with real economic interests in mind. In the past the US has asked for the have nots to come in mass to build this country. The idea that allowing immigrants in will damage America is absurd. Let in as many as this nation needs to continue growing. Worker visas are a good place to start.

- Seal the border as best we can. More patrols, more cameras, more drones, and a wall if needed.

- The government has to crack down on illegal employment like never before. SS#'s need to be checked and all illegals deported immediately. Employers should face jail time NOT FINES if they are shown to have knowingly employed an illegal alien or not checked the persons status correctly.

- Develop a program for integrating immigrants. Have all immigrants from like cultures on the same program with stated and clear goals. Yearly languages tests based on the same curriculum that is given to immigrants upon entering the country. Don't leave it up to them to study on their own because they will fall victim to fly by night con artists promising to teach them English quickly. Also testing when everyone is studying something different is very difficult.

I think if we did all that we'd be closer to having a good system. It wouldn't be perfect but it would be way better then what we have now.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Debating the conditions under which illegal immigrants can or cannot apply for citizenship should be low on the list of priorities related to immigration reform. At best it provides a temporary resolution for those cucrrently here.

First a policy is needed on how many non-professional temporary foreign workers you want, and decide what the rules for them should be to gain citizenship. The current policy essentially says no low-skilled workers are needed, and just about everyone agrees this is the wrong number.

The H visa program for professional workers is pretty effective in the high tech world and a simpler scheme with less paperwork could be adopted for lower wage workers. The H visa program places a cap on the number of visa holders each year and this cap is adjusted based on market needs (or at least what politicians decide they want to set the cap at). Because this mechanism exists, professional workers interested in working in the US know what they have to do, and to my knowledge most play by the rules and stay within the legal system. They may have to wait in their home country for a few years but they have a legal path to gaining entry and most choose it.

Border enforcement would be made much easier if there was a legal mechanism for low-skill workers who were needed to enter the country without risking their lives. They may have to wait a few years until granted a visa but today they know they will never be given the opportunity and so they take a risk. Once employers know there is a legal pool of workers, enforcement also becomes viable.

[Fergasun]

One of the main problems I have with comprehensive plan is that it implements everything all at once. I don't see how this will be technically feasible without creating a new large govt agency.

I would prefer to see heavy enforcement for at least 2 years plus the wall. You will need to have some period for the immigrants to apply for the program and get in line as well. You don't even have to deport anyone caught during the enforcement, just fine employers heavily for breaking the law, and turn a blind eye to the individual workers. I'd prefer individuals to get immunity rather than businesses, in fact how can we verify those immigrants have been employed for the past 5 years?

Other things that need to be done.
- Set up a system that allows the IRS/SSA to inform people if their numbers are being fraudulently used.

- SPECIFICALLY DELEGATE SOME IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT POWERS TO STATE/LOCAL GOVERNMENTS. This can be done to throw a bone to local cities that are trying to keep the illegal immigrants out (Escondido, that PA town). Currently the ACLU has been able to use lawsuits to stop these under the pretense that local govts don't have authority to enforce immigration law. If they are given this authority it closes a huge loophole in the system.

Fact is, if Congress de-funds the fence it will anger a bunch of "enforcement first" moderates in the country. I would love to see House Democrats face the same pressure House Republicans did, and it would restore some faith in democracy...

[DjTj]

One of the main problems I have with comprehensive plan is that it implements everything all at once. I don't see how this will be technically feasible without creating a new large govt agency. Actually, increased enforcement by itself would probably create the greatest growth in government. Enforcing these laws against businesses is probably the hardest thing to do - you're talking about investigators, undercover agents, lawyers, administrative law judges. If you really want full enforcement that will probably be more than ten times as many cases as we have going today ... it would decrease quickly as businesses realized what was going on, but it would take a huge increase in resources on the government side to get the kind of results I think you're looking for.

That's not to mention the cost of the fence, increasd border controls, and all that, which would probably also be ten times the current budget.

Comprehensive reform would actually be cheaper because instead of hunting down immigrants and employers, they would actually come to you if you give them a safe way to do so. You would need to hire more people to process forms, but the resources required for that pale in comparison to trying to do things from the law enforcement side. This is part of why Reagan implemented things that way - amnesty is the small-government solution.

[Larry]

For example, there were 2 programs on TV just last night that really gave a good inside look into the immigration issues that face our country. One of the programs dealt with a construction company in Colorado. The owner explained how dependent his company is on undocumented workers, and how many other companies in Colorado were as well. He basically said that without undocumented workers, his company would be out of business and Colorado would be in big economic trouble.

Unfortunately, his statement is utter BS.

If a magic wand could teleport every illegal back home overnight, then he'd be short some workers, tomorrow. And he'd hire more. (He'd hire Americans.)

He'd have to pay more. And his legal employees would go "Hey, where's my raise?". And the employers that he hired people away from would have to raise their wages, some, too.

Yes, there would be a readjustment of wages in several industries. Ripple effects would be going on for years.

However, there's actually historical data concerning what the effects of such a change are. (Somebody posted an article about it, here. I'm remembering it.)

Decades ago, there was a guest worker program for farm workers. Immigrants could work picking crops. And one day, the program was repealed.

The result was that farm wages rose 40%, to coax Americans into doing the work that the immigrants used to be doing.

The article calculated that if agricultural labor costs were to rise another 40%, then the net cost to the average family in increased produce costs would be around $100. A year.

[Destino]

Unfortunately, his statement is utter BS.

If a magic wand could teleport every illegal back home overnight, then he'd be short some workers, tomorrow. And he'd hire more. (He'd hire Americans.)
Looks like you're the one slinging **** here friend. Raising wages doesn't make humans beings that don't exist suddenly appear. An economy at near full employment doesn't have the warm bodies to fill 10 millions spots. There is supply and demand at work just like in everything else. Supply is not increased on pay alone and humans take a while to "produce" by means other then immigration.

[Larry]

Actually, increased enforcement by itself would probably create the greatest growth in government. Enforcing these laws against businesses is probably the hardest thing to do - you're talking about investigators, undercover agents, lawyers, administrative law judges. If you really want full enforcement that will probably be more than ten times as many cases as we have going today ... it would decrease quickly as businesses realized what was going on, but it would take a huge increase in resources on the government side to get the kind of results I think you're looking for.

I do agree that enforcement against employers is tough under the current system. Right now, even if an employer wants to follow the law, it's hard for him to do so.

I think of the situation as being similar to the "no alcohol under 21" laws. What we've got right now is a system where the document that says somebody's 21 is an easily forged piece of paper that the government will send out through the mail is you ask them to.

To me, (sticking with the under-21 analogy) what's necessary is for the government to issue people driver's licenses with photos on them, and show the birth date. If you catch a bartender serving minors, and the minor has a good-quality forgery, then OK, the bartender checked. But if the bartender never even asked for ID, then he's guilty.

To me, step one is, provide people with a relatively secure ID that verifies citizenship. (Or, eligibility to work.) Step two, I'd say, is to require employers, when they file their quarterly withholding statements, to itemize their statements for each worker. (I'd assume that virtually every employer now files electronically, so it's not that onerous to require the names and addresses of your employees.) At that point, it then becomes possible for the government to spot identity forgery relatively quickly.

[dfitzo53]

As a citizen and believer of America the democracy, which has been ingrained into me from the start, I wonder, who is in control?...What type of a democracy is it that we can undue what the will of the people was less than a year ago?
It's not a democracy, and Congress was never designed to be directly subservient to the will of the people. In fact, it was designed not to be directly subservient to the will of the people. We choose individuals to represent us in our legislative body, individuals who may or may not agree with us on every issue. (Most likely not in a two-party system.)


Now, you make think immigration, abortion, and health care are unrelated... but I have somewhat of a unified theory. All the abortions going on for the past 30 years? They've diminished the work force to the point that we need undocumented workers.
Freakonomics has a different take on the increase in abortions since the 1970s. Since abortions are far more common in broken families, among prostitutes, etc., the increase in abortions disproportionately targeted babies who were likely to grow up in a life of crime. In this way, the book attributes the steady fall of crime since the 1990s to a decrease in criminals - the aborted babies who would have been reaching their teenage and adult years sometime between 1990 and now.



Seriously, are the crime and murder rates so low that it's not the number one issue? Do we really have to reform immigration? Is the fact that we're wasting so much money on Iraq and other areas?
I suppose it's up to every person to define "low" for him or herself, but if I'm not mistaken, the crime rates are low now relative to recent history.

[Larry]

Freakonomics has a different take on the increase in abortions since the 1970s. Since abortions are far more common in broken families, among prostitutes, etc., the increase in abortions disproportionately targeted babies who were likely to grow up in a life of crime. In this way, the book attributes the steady fall of crime since the 1990s to a decrease in criminals - the aborted babies who would have been reaching their teenage and adult years sometime between 1990 and now.

Granted, I haven't read the thing, I've only heard summaries, but I think they went considerably further than that.

They compared states that legalized abortion before others did, and yes, those state's crime rates started going down sooner than the "later" states' did. And I believe they also found a correlation between states where abortions were more widespread vs. states where abortion, while legal, was rare.


I suppose it's up to every person to define "low" for him or herself, but if I'm not mistaken, the crime rates are low now relative to recent history.

As I understand it, crime rates for violent crime have been going down, nationwide, for decades. (Although, they've been going up, lately. It's possible that the next year or two may be the first year in the last 25 where crime went up.) (I'm sure it's Clinton's fault.)

(There's another correlation in there, too. As I understand it, every single state that's passed a concealed-carry law, has had a decrease in violent crime, every single year since it's been passed. However, one of those trends may be causing the other.)

[luckydevil]

One of the main problems I have with comprehensive plan is that it implements everything all at once. I don't see how this will be technically feasible without creating a new large govt agency.



Hahaha

The amount of funding that immigration enforcement will require is enourmous. Lets just be honest about this, you are on the big government side of this debate. It's dishonest to suggest otherwise

[Fergasun]

Hahaha

The amount of funding that immigration enforcement will require is enourmous. Lets just be honest about this, you are on the big government side of this debate. It's dishonest to suggest otherwise

Immigration enforcement, at least on the businesses themselves should be able to pay for itself if the fines are large enough. Aren't there people already getting paid to do this enforcement?

I think my priorities lie somewhere like this:
1) Fix the DHS system so that valid SSNs cannot be used to hire more than one person. This is gripe #1 I have with the "Pilot Program" for matching SSN's to workers.
2) Fix the legal immigration system... it's a mess.
3) Put up some walls to seal the border. Yes it's a token gesture... at least the walls are used to funnel people to certain entrance points where it is easier to stop them.
4) Work with employers to set up some type of Guest Worker System. They can live here indefinately, but are put on a long path to citizenship... 10-15 years. This may also involve raising the cap of legal immigrants. Make the employers fund this and guest worker health insurance. If employers want workers so bad they need to put $$$ where their mouths are.
5) Give State and Local Authorities power to enforce Federal Immigration law. They can put them in prison, check immigration status, and kick immigrants out of their states/counties if they so please.

My biggest problem right now is our goverment allowing citizens to suffer identity theft and fraud due to undocumented workers either stealing or using their SSNs. My second biggest problem is that the current system is way too slow and bloated to even support the type of plan they want to put in place.

[CounterTrey]

Congress (Senate) Ready to Pass Amnesty (again) (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,238861,00.html)



Happens every 2 years from those weasels in Washington. I don't know when it happened, but I'd like to know why they the value of American citizenship is being so cheapened. Normally you don't allow people who break your rules/laws to stay, let alone give them citizenship.

Thats BS!! I came here legally, and waited 15 years to become a citizen. Now these people can just come in illegally, tax the whole country to support them and now they are getting a free ride to become a citizen.

****ing BS.

[Prosperity]

They are becoming eligible to become citizens not automatically becoming citizens

[DjTj]

Thats BS!! I came here legally, and waited 15 years to become a citizen. Now these people can just come in illegally, tax the whole country to support them and now they are getting a free ride to become a citizen.

****ing BS.May I ask why it took 15 years? It's only 5 years after you get your green card, right? Maybe an extra year for processing. What kind of visa did you have that allowed you to stay in the country for a decade before getting a green card?

[Fergasun]

DjTj,
It's the backlog of relatives to current legal immigrants. So if you are a minor child of a legal immigrant, you have to wait to get a green card with your parent. If you happen to turn 21, you get kicked to the back of the line.

(Green Card Limbo, Minnesota Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/462/story/861846.html)).

Applications filed in 1984 for brothers and sisters of naturalized U.S. citizens from the Philippines finally are being granted in 2006.

For most other countries, similar applications filed in 1995 now are getting the final OK.

Applications for minor, unmarried children of U.S. citizens - who have the shortest waits - now are being approved if they were filed in 2001. But that drops to 1993 if you happen to be from Mexico, or 1991 if you're from the Philippines.

Ironically, if her mother hadn't had to wait 12 years for her papers, Perez would have been approved under her mother's application as a minor child. But she turned 21 while waiting, shifting her into another category that requires her to apply on her own. Perez's younger sister -- who was also on her mother's application -- is now a permanent, legal resident.

These people are legally allowed to stay, but their green cards are pending. It doesn't seem like they are able to apply for a work visa.... so even though their documentation is in process, they are still undocumented. This happened to my wife. Her DHS paperwork was lost or something, and we had to file a motion to appeal deportation. She was in this limbo status for a year, her 1 year temporary work visa expired, she couldn't renew it, couldn't get a license, couldn't renew her expired passport... many people don't realize what a mess it is... and we are going to add 7-10 million more people into the line?

[DjTj]

DjTj,
It's the backlog of relatives to current legal immigrants. So if you are a minor child of a legal immigrant, you have to wait to get a green card with your parent. If you happen to turn 21, you get kicked to the back of the line.

(Green Card Limbo, Minnesota Star Tribune (http://www.startribune.com/462/story/861846.html)).That actually happenned to my cousin. When my aunt and uncle got their green cards, she was already over 21 but her younger brother was able to get derivative status.

Congress actually changed the law in 2002 though, and now the under-21 cutoff is determined by the date your application is processed rather than the date your number comes up: The Child Status Protection Act of 2002 (http://www.uscis.gov/propub/ProPubVAP.jsp?dockey=e4a9ae5ddb9e2253c1bdb4233f407 5b0).

These people are legally allowed to stay, but their green cards are pending. It doesn't seem like they are able to apply for a work visa.... so even though their documentation is in process, they are still undocumented. This happened to my wife. Her DHS paperwork was lost or something, and we had to file a motion to appeal deportation. She was in this limbo status for a year, her 1 year temporary work visa expired, she couldn't renew it, couldn't get a license, couldn't renew her expired passport... many people don't realize what a mess it is... and we are going to add 7-10 million more people into the line?
I guess they would give V-Visas (http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1493.html) to these people before, but I think Congress also changed that law because the cutoff date for V-Visas is December 2000. I think these people now have to stay outside the country and wait for their green cards.

...the way the system is set up now, if you're just on the waiting list you shouldn't be inside the United States - you'll need some other kind of visa or other immigration status.

[GSF]

Noone is suggesting to just make them citizens. Many of them don't want to become citizens. There is a big difference between an amnesty and a guest worker program.

[CounterTrey]

May I ask why it took 15 years? It's only 5 years after you get your green card, right? Maybe an extra year for processing. What kind of visa did you have that allowed you to stay in the country for a decade before getting a green card?

My mom worked for the World Bank in DC under the G-4 visa. Its basically for people working under organizations that fit under the UN umbrella (IMF, IFC & World bank). She also had a Diplomatic passport issued under the World bank.

The route I took is listed below.

Under the G-4 visa, if a dependant (who was me) finishes 7 full years of US education and at the end of its 7th year is under the age of 21, he or she gets an automatic Green Card.

I finished 7 by my Freshman year at JMU. So I got my green card in 2000 (came to the US in 1991), then applied for citizenship last year, got it in march 2006, so almost 15 years since I came to the US. Now my wife is in turn to get her Green card in 6-8 months.