Today, I'm going to eat some crow. Yum

[DCsportsfan53]

Last year, after the end of the season, I got into more than a few heated discussions concerning the Lavar Arrington fiasco. While I still believe it was for the best that the two parted ways, I'm here to say now that I was far too critical of his positions, blinded by the trip to the playoffs and that, while he ran his mouth too much, much of what he said was completely true.

He was right about how this organization (especially on defense) mistreats players and doesn't treat them like men. He was right that it's demoralizing to watch the guys who EARNED a big payday get thrown to the curb while underachievers get overpayed and brought in from outside. He was right that there's entirely too much arrogance on our defensive coaching staff.

Anotonio Pierce, we always complain about him being bitter and the things he's said since he's left. Well, there's a reason. The reason is, we're a dysfucntional organization that doesn't have a consistent direction or message, has a tendency towards mistreating and undervaluing their own players and exhibits arrogance throughout. Gregg Williams has been allowed to run wild and, if you watch the same games I'm watching, you'll see his players no longer play hard for him. They just don't. The effort is not there.

What it all boils down to is, Joe Gibbs is not running this team as the strong willed, determined micro manager he once was. There's no retribution for playing poorly for most players. There's no on-field accountability. There's no identity to the team. Say what you want about the play of AA, he doesn't deserved to be treated and disrespected the way his is right now, the very same way Lavar was last year. That's something I wouldn't expect Gibbs would allow to happen on his team.

Basically, if Gibbs doesn't take the power back, completely and totally, from a coaching stand point and insist that things will be done a certain way, his second stint here is doomed. For starters, at the very least, he has GOT to get GW under control, this guy is just alienating guys left and right, as he's done before with other teams. Gibbs needs to decide if he can get him under control and make the tough decision if he doesn't think he can. THAT is the main difference I see in the Gibbs of lore and the Gibbs of today. The Gibbs I grew up with was not afraid to take risks, make tough or unpopular decisions, piss some people off or cut ties when it wasn't working. Today's Gibbs is more concerned with keeping everyone happy than winning, it seems, and it's high time he let go of worrying about people's feelings and did what's best for the team instead.

So, to the people on here I probably got a little grumpy with for defending him and to Lavar himself, I'm sorry, I should've seen how much more there was to the situation than I WANTED to see or believe. I don't know where the team goes from here, what I do know is, there have to be some major, major shifts in the way the top of this organization approaches the how they conduct business and run the team. And by top I mean Dan Synder and Joe Gibbs. Photo4u, fansince62 and others, I'm sorry, I don't know how I let myself be so blinded by Gibbs' legend and the playoff run. I let my objectivity fly out the window, something I try to pride myself on having, and I feel like a fool for having fallen for it. This crow doesn't taste very good but I figured it's only right to eat it.

[bubba9497]

we all have tasted crow around here at times

[pjfootballer]

Tastes like Chicken!!!

[laxpck]

My whole attitude towards AA was just cleared up a lot.

If HE leaked the story to Tom Friend I hope he rots on the sideline forever.

[HapHaszard]

Tastes like Chicken!!!
No rattlesnake tastes like chicken, crow tastes like rattlesnake.

[skinfan2k]

My whole attitude towards AA was just cleared up a lot.

If HE leaked the story to Tom Friend I hope he rots on the sideline forever.

it wasnt arch because it talked about last year.. and i appauld the individual who leaked the story to the press.. it shows you how ****ed up this organiztion is

[Passizle]

Well... If everything basically tastes like chicken, then what does chicken taste like?

...The world may never know...

[skins4eva]

So, to the people on here I probably got a little grumpy with for defending him and to Lavar himself, I'm sorry, I should've seen how much more there was to the situation than I WANTED to see or believe. I don't know where the team goes from here, what I do know is, there have to be some major, major shifts in the way the top of this organization approaches the how they conduct business and run the team. And by top I mean Dan Synder and Joe Gibbs. Photo4u, fansince62 and others, I'm sorry, I don't know how I let myself be so blinded by Gibbs' legend and the playoff run. I let my objectivity fly out the window, something I try to pride myself on having, and I feel like a fool for having fallen for it. This crow doesn't taste very good but I figured it's only right to eat it.


It's a great post, and it's entirely true. Gibbs hasn't decided how he wants to coach or manage this team, and consequently, we are a poorly coached, mismanaged team, with zero accountability. That has to change or Gibbs has to go.

[rictus58]

DC,
I agree with a lot of what you have to say with the exception of Antonio Pierce. he should thank the skins for giving him a chance to begin with.

[HapHaszard]

Well... If everything basically tastes like chicken, then what does chicken taste like?

...The world may never know...
You know that is one of the deep philosophical questions of this century. Somewhere up there with the other chicken question "which came first the chicken or the egg?"

If it will help you to cope, please be aware that scientists are working on thiis right now. According to MIT, they think that it could lead to a faster then light drive sometime in the near future. Whereas Harvard thinks that it will allow the common people to predict the stockmarket, causing fear on wall street. Only the future will tell.

[Uno Boss]

My whole attitude towards AA was just cleared up a lot.

If HE leaked the story to Tom Friend I hope he rots on the sideline forever.


Ok Homie we get your point.....


You are brain washed.... but everyone doesnt feel like you do so ..get over it...:doh:


I find it funny how even the article about archulletta had ....

"An unidentified Veteran source".....


It must be some truth to it....

[DCsportsfan53]

It's a great post, and it's entirely true. Gibbs hasn't decided how he wants to coach or manage this team, and consequently, we are a poorly coached, mismanaged team, with zero accountability. That has to change or Gibbs has to go.


That's basically where I'm at, too. I'm certainly not ready to give up on him but, with the things that have come to light throughout the course of this season, it's plain to see that some drastic changes need to be made. This offseason is going to very important to the legacy Gibbs II leaves behind and the long term future of the organization, imo. Lots to do and lots to think about for the guys running the show.

[str8jacket]

I'm glad Lavar is gone. But i do think some of the things he said was true, as you mentioned. And with the AA story in the Post, leaves you wondering how much more of the problem is upstairs rather than with the players, and how this is really affecting the play.

[scruffylookin]

DC,
I agree with a lot of what you have to say with the exception of Antonio Pierce. he should thank the skins for giving him a chance to begin with.

To a degree, but really it should be Marty Schottenheimer who he should thank.

Schottenheimer brought him in and after some injuries to the linebackers played him and in fact started him about 8 games in 01.

After Marty left, Pierce became a special teamer in 02 and 03 and was inserted into the middle in 04 and became the starter only after GW first choice (Michael Barrow) was too injured to ever get on the field.

I think it's Marty who Antonio Pierce would thank for giving him a chance. If anything, Pierce might say that GW should thank him for saving his butt and playing so well in 04 after Barrow couldn't play.

[RedskinzOwnU]

Getting rid of lavar was still the right decision. He was overrated and overpriced. While we are seeing a similar situation here, I do have more sympathy for Archuleta. This coaching staff brought him in, paid him the big bucks, and refuses to tell him what he's doing wrong. Archuletta wasn't free lancing or refusing to play in the scheme - he just sucked. So, there is no reason to be anything but honest with him. Maybe he can improve? Probably not, but, what is there to lose?

[CPortJGibbs89]

it wasnt arch because it talked about last year.. and i appauld the individual who leaked the story to the press.. it shows you how ****ed up this organiztion isWell said, man I am getting more and more depressed as I read about all this. I mean what the **** can we expect next year?? I mean will anyone be surprised if we fall on our faces again. I mean it is going to take a few years to turn this philosophy around. Man O man what a day this has been. **** has to change and Gibbs needs to step up to the plate and start just batting mother ****ers out. Sorry for all the cussing but this **** really ****ing pisses me off how things are being run year after year :doh:.

[Mooka]

I can't believe we're still going back to the Lavar situation. :doh:

If the search worked I would post the I could have handled things better article where Lavar admitted his knee was still screwed up and he had basically been lying to us all for months.

[bubba9497]

Well... If everything basically tastes like chicken, then what does chicken taste like?

...The world may never know...



Chicken :D

[JimmiJo]

we all have tasted crow around here at times

Some more than others, eh Bubba :D ?

[Mr. S]

I'm vegetarian, what do I substitute for crow? I think a nice plate of brussel sprouts, mushrooms, and asparagus stewed in castor oil would work.

I definitely fell onto the bandwagon and was annoyed by Lavar, Pierce, etc.... Now, Lavar is still a whiny punk, but Pierce, Smoot, and CLark were on to something. How do we even know Gibbs is not to blame? I think he should share just as much for making us suffer through Brunell in 2004 and 2006.

[DCsportsfan53]

I can't believe we're still going back to the Lavar situation. :doh:

If the search worked I would post the I could have handled things better article where Lavar admitted his knee was still screwed up and he had basically been lying to us all for months.

It's relevant given that people continue to say the same things. I'm not saying he didn't blow things out of proportion or lie a bit, but there was a lot of truth there, too. I think the things said by others in similar situations that we always just pass off as "jealous players acting like jilted lovers" seems to support that.


I'm vegetarian, what do I substitute for crow? I think a nice plate of brussel sprouts, mushrooms, and asparagus stewed in castor oil would work.

I definitely fell onto the bandwagon and was annoyed by Lavar, Pierce, etc.... Now, Lavar is still a whiny punk, but Pierce, Smoot, and CLark were on to something. How do we even know Gibbs is not to blame? I think he should share just as much for making us suffer through Brunell in 2004 and 2006.


Definitely agree, this is basically what the main point of post was. I think it doesn't get fixed unless Gibbs alters the way he's approaching this thing.

[bubba9497]

Some more than others, eh Bubba :D ?


this season?




ummmm maybe :silly:

[OfficerPX]

I hated to see Pierce go, but I do enjoy this gem of a quote:

"In Washington, I don't want to wish them bad, but you never knew what you were going to get into," Pierce said. "It's sad to say that. We had a lot of great coaches. But here, you know that Coughlin is going to be here. They're committed to Coughlin. They're committed to [defensive coordinator] Tim Lewis. I respect that a lot about this organization."

--Washington Post, 8/9/2005

Good luck with your new coaches next year, Antonio.

[Mooka]

It's relevant given that people continue to say the same things. I'm not saying he didn't blow things out of proportion or lie a bit, but there was a lot of truth there, too. I think the things said by others in similar situations that we always just pass off as "jealous players acting like jilted lovers" seems to support that. I refuse to forgive Lavar for that. A simple, "I'm not back to 100% so, yada yada yada" would've stopped alotta headaches among Redskin fans.

[monkforhall]

I hated to see Pierce go, but I do enjoy this gem of a quote:

"In Washington, I don't want to wish them bad, but you never knew what you were going to get into," Pierce said. "It's sad to say that. We had a lot of great coaches. But here, you know that Coughlin is going to be here. They're committed to Coughlin. They're committed to [defensive coordinator] Tim Lewis. I respect that a lot about this organization."

--Washington Post, 8/9/2005

Good luck with your new coaches next year, Antonio.

Ha ha. Good find. It's not called Not For Long for no reason. Even Belicheck has been canned.

[Craig]

it wasnt arch because it talked about last year.. and i appauld the individual who leaked the story to the press.. it shows you how ****ed up this organiztion is

Level of agreement: 100%. The way this club is run is FUBAR.

[JimmiJo]

this season?




ummmm maybe :silly:

No worries, I've had my bib on for some time.

Man, this tastes just like...

[skinfan2k]

we obviously know gibbs is not running the show and synder has influenced him in all personnel matters. is gibbs even right for this organization? the front office is still in shambles and there seems to be no continuity? al saunders is old and will not be here for too long and gregg williams is a retread and wont be the next hc coach.. what are we grooming for the future besides JC?

[KingGibbs]

I was one of those who thoght the whole Lavar issue was mishandled and I still do. It's no coincidence that Lavar is gone and the defense is the worst we've seen in yeras. I'm not saying he was the defense, but you can't deny he was a playmaker and when he left so did the intensity on our defense. But, some of you will continue to use the "he played out of position" line. But, atleast his replacement has made us forget about him. :doh:

The AA situation pales in comparison because he only played defense for seven games for the 'skins and he is not the face of this team like Lavar was and you can deny it all you want, but all of the 56 jerseys you saw on Sundays would prove that.

Lavar wasn't entirely innocent, but there's an obvious pattern growing here between the coaches and disgruntled players and Lavar didn't deserve to be treated like he was by so many fans considering how much he gave to fans.

I'm glad to see some of those people see it now and yes Lavar I still miss you and you will always be one of my favorite 'skins because you poured your heart out on and off the field.

[Johaun]

I wanna know how many licks it takes to get to the center of a chicken?
I would never eat crow, well not unless it was like a 4 cheese crow or crow and waffles. Crow by itself is just nasty.

On the other hand Pierce and Lavar are better then Marshall and Holdman. I'm excited for Rocky to get some more playing time.

And if you think about it, crow is definetly not the other white meat!

[Underwater Ally]

My whole attitude towards AA was just cleared up a lot.

If HE leaked the story to Tom Friend I hope he rots on the sideline forever.

Why? Everything in the Tom Friend article was dead on.

[smalczak]

When I was reading the article on AA in today's post, I was thinking 'gee, I've read this EXACT same thing somewhere....oh yeah...Lavar last year!'. The whole bit about how AA has been benched and nobody will talk to him is just too reminiscent of the Arrington situation for it to the players' fault. Even the same old crap that GW spews when asked is repetitive---'he had a good week of practice' etc.

I never thought the Arrington situation was solely the player's fault. I always thought it was something deeper. I had hoped at the time that it was just a personality clash between Arrington and one or more of the defensive coaches. But sadly, the AA saga is showing that there is indeed a problem on the coaching side. And this problem must be resolved and soon. We cant afford to keep throwing money at players that will lose favor with one of the million coaches and then become dead money and a locker-room divider. That is no way to manage a TEAM!

[TheLongshot]

Sorry, but I lost all respect for Lavar when he took a dump on the team when they were fighting for a playoff spot. To me, that was a guy who was looking out for himself, and not for his team. That's not what I call a Gibbs type of player. I'm glad he's gone.

In hindsight, it is pretty obvious why Lavar wasn't playing: because he wasn't ready to play. I mean, Lavar wasn't cleared to RUN until about the 3rd or 4th preseason game. To assume that he was in shape any sooner, especially coming back from a knee injury, was a little silly. Most of the problems came from Lavar himself, who couldn't bring himself to admit this himself. The coaching staff was trying to be as tactful as possible about the situation, but Lavar couldn't shut his trap about it. Then at the end was the comment about that he could have handled it better. :rolleyes:

As for other players on the defense, you do have to remember that there has been a lot of coaching turnover and there had to be a lot of trust to be earned that things would be different. Pierce's comments reflect similar comments by Bailey, and I can understand feeling that way, especially with all the turnover that had happened in the past. But, in the end, Pierce wanted to get paid. He could have decided that he wanted to build something here, but he decided to take the money. Now, his team is self destructing and there are some questions on whether or not his head coach will be back.

As for Gibbs, I think he has taken some control back. I do think he probably let some things get away from him this year. I don't expect it to happen again. Gibbs works hard so that they don't.

Jason

[smalczak]

Whether its LAs fault or AA's fault or GW's fault becomes irrelelvant when the perception starts to become that our coaches treat their players POORLY. I'm sure these player all 'talk shop' as much as anyone else in the professional world, so word gets around.

As someone else said, where there is smoke there is fire and it wont be too long before quality FAs hestitate to sign here for fear of being mistreated. Whats worse is that the type of players that WILL want to sign here will be the mercenaries just looking for the quick buck.

I sincerely hope that you are right about Gibbs. To me, its inexcusable that the Skins could be aquiring a poor reputation around the league from a players' point of view.

[SkinsFTW]

Sure, and next year when its somebody else who has a huge contract lets just keep on pretending that its all the players fault.

I wonder who is going to be the bad guy next year? Maybe it will be McIntosh since they will insist on still starting the turnstyle over him.

[Buffy711]

Hi I'm Buffy711, WOW! these are some strong and deep thoughts DCfan53. I appreciate honesty and telling it like it is because the team was all over the place this year. They have no consistancy so there is something definitely wrong with management. I hope they show progress in 2007 because they really do have some great players.

[LiveStrongSkins]

I'm with you DC, I truely am. Right now the whole organization just looks like one big cluster-**** with no direction, plan, or purpose. It's like each year they shave just enough off the cap to give them what they think is the best chance to gear up for a one year run. How many teams have players take pay cuts and restructure all the time? The players we grow to love and support and the players who want to stay here usually leave and turn bitter because of how frustrated they are with the idiots running our organization. I dont even fault them for talking about us, because t hose are guys who really wanted to be here and are offended they werent in the plans. Meanwhile bums get 10 million dollar bonuses to come in.

[ChampSkinsFanatic]

Say what you want about the play of AA, he doesn't deserved to be treated and disrespected the way his is right now, the very same way Lavar was last year. That's something I wouldn't expect Gibbs would allow to happen on his team.


And people wonder why Lavar gave money back to get the hell out of here. Clowns like Dale Lindsey are running a banana republic and they are going to cost us a lot of talent.

[skinpride1]

I don't know what goes on a redskin park with greg willams and the defense but I'm sure the last years performance had to be a big slap in his face !!!

[JPCreativelab]

I hated to see Pierce go, but I do enjoy this gem of a quote:

"In Washington, I don't want to wish them bad, but you never knew what you were going to get into," Pierce said. "It's sad to say that. We had a lot of great coaches. But here, you know that Coughlin is going to be here. They're committed to Coughlin. They're committed to [defensive coordinator] Tim Lewis. I respect that a lot about this organization."

--Washington Post, 8/9/2005

Good luck with your new coaches next year, Antonio.


speaking of eating crow :D

[elkabong82]

Sorry if I don't buy into the whole "lack of loyalty is why we suck" argument. There is always going to be an unhappy player or two in the locker room. That's what happens when you have a large group of guys who are always competing. The Patriots are by far the least loyal to their players, yet they continue to produce. Pierce is pissed b/c he wanted to stay here. We couldn't afford him. If he was really that upset, he could have resigned for slightly less, or backloaded his contract. He took the pay day, and now we all see why the Skins weren't too eager on attempting to resign a player who bad mouths the organization that he chose to leave. Hold off on eating that crow, b/c there was alot more that atrributed to the D's poor performance this year, such as an aging D-line and injuries to the secondary. The main argument of this thread also claims the players wouldn't play for Williams. That arguemnt does not take into account that almost every team we played was held under 30 points, and it doesn't take into account the Saints game, amongst others.

[Enter Apotheosis]

The Patriots are by far the least loyal to their players, yet they continue to produce.

The Patriots are only unloyal to the guys who line up furthest from the ball. Cornerbacks and wide receivers are completely expendable to Belichick... yet Brady, the LBs, the RBs, and both lines are mainstays of that team. In fact, there is not a single starter on either line who was not drafted by the Patriots.


On the other hand Pierce and Lavar are better then Marshall and Holdman. I'm excited for Rocky to get some more playing time.

And if you think about it, crow is definetly not the other white meat!

Personally, I think Pierce and Marshall (at OLB) would have worked out the best for us.

[fansince62]

Last year, after the end of the season, I got into more than a few heated discussions concerning the Lavar Arrington fiasco. While I still believe it was for the best that the two parted ways, I'm here to say now that I was far too critical of his positions, blinded by the trip to the playoffs and that, while he ran his mouth too much, much of what he said was completely true.

He was right about how this organization (especially on defense) mistreats players and doesn't treat them like men. He was right that it's demoralizing to watch the guys who EARNED a big payday get thrown to the curb while underachievers get overpayed and brought in from outside. He was right that there's entirely too much arrogance on our defensive coaching staff.

Anotonio Pierce, we always complain about him being bitter and the things he's said since he's left. Well, there's a reason. The reason is, we're a dysfucntional organization that doesn't have a consistent direction or message, has a tendency towards mistreating and undervaluing their own players and exhibits arrogance throughout. Gregg Williams has been allowed to run wild and, if you watch the same games I'm watching, you'll see his players no longer play hard for him. They just don't. The effort is not there.

What it all boils down to is, Joe Gibbs is not running this team as the strong willed, determined micro manager he once was. There's no retribution for playing poorly for most players. There's no on-field accountability. There's no identity to the team. Say what you want about the play of AA, he doesn't deserved to be treated and disrespected the way his is right now, the very same way Lavar was last year. That's something I wouldn't expect Gibbs would allow to happen on his team.

Basically, if Gibbs doesn't take the power back, completely and totally, from a coaching stand point and insist that things will be done a certain way, his second stint here is doomed. For starters, at the very least, he has GOT to get GW under control, this guy is just alienating guys left and right, as he's done before with other teams. Gibbs needs to decide if he can get him under control and make the tough decision if he doesn't think he can. THAT is the main difference I see in the Gibbs of lore and the Gibbs of today. The Gibbs I grew up with was not afraid to take risks, make tough or unpopular decisions, piss some people off or cut ties when it wasn't working. Today's Gibbs is more concerned with keeping everyone happy than winning, it seems, and it's high time he let go of worrying about people's feelings and did what's best for the team instead.

So, to the people on here I probably got a little grumpy with for defending him and to Lavar himself, I'm sorry, I should've seen how much more there was to the situation than I WANTED to see or believe. I don't know where the team goes from here, what I do know is, there have to be some major, major shifts in the way the top of this organization approaches the how they conduct business and run the team. And by top I mean Dan Synder and Joe Gibbs. Photo4u, fansince62 and others, I'm sorry, I don't know how I let myself be so blinded by Gibbs' legend and the playoff run. I let my objectivity fly out the window, something I try to pride myself on having, and I feel like a fool for having fallen for it. This crow doesn't taste very good but I figured it's only right to eat it

DC...I was one of those folks you got into it with over LA. I always felt people were reacting on the basis of emotions (e.g., LA's interviews, the silliness with Lindsey, the meaningless "I want to be a Redskin for life" statement - as though any player save for a very select few any longer remain with the same team throughout a career) rather than observation. Folks like me were recognizing LA's faults - most especially his singleminded focus on the business end of things - but pointing out some rather obvious things others decided to ignore:

1) There are two sides to every situation......this was very much a stimulous/response interction - both ways.

2) There was a pattern with other players - no one was listening to the players saying this.

3) No matter what anyone says - LA was the starter during the 5 game winning streak. The defense improved - only the biggest homers felt comfortable canning his arse for Holdman.

4) LA could come or go - he wasn't critical at this point - many of us pointed out, however, that the team had no option for the physical presence he brought to the point of attack. It still doesn't and continues to have one of the weakest LB corps in the NFL.

5) LA was just a sympton - one among mnay - of absolutely putrid personnel management by this team. It's as though this team is more intersted in how creative/clever it can be in manipulating the cap than it is in building a stable, championship caliber roster. A team cannot survive the way the Skins have treating their players - there's no reason for a player to believe in the "core" philosophy being pushed given how the roster has been managed.

6) JG personnaly visited LA to try to rescue the situation - that's a fact. It told me there was recognized value. It also told me there was some validity to the notion that there was friction that generated on both sides of the divide between LA and the defensive coaching staff (especially Lindsey). otherise, why did Joe do this? The defensive braintrust wanted him gone.

I defended LA but frankly recognized that whether he stayed or left didn't mean all that much. So long as the team does not have a vision that it keeps to each year; so long as this team feels that championships can be bought each off-season; so long as this team continues to have a spectacularly uneven record for judging talent; so long as the dysfunctional FO organizational structure persists....the tune will remain the same: off-seasons filled with hope; ocassional seasons of satisfiing performance...but never, ever any Championship runs: the strategy being employed doesn't lend itself to building a championship team...it is always out of synch. just look at the defenses that have been in action during this off-season coming into the Conference championship games (with the one question mark being the Colts) and then look at what we have. Those teams all invested in the d-lines and made it a priority. those teams all have LB corps that have been together for some time who play physical football. The Skins defensive predicament isn't a function of bad luck - it's built into the cards...it's a product of the management philosophy/style that produces the roster and fails to retain quality players.

So far...there does not appear any news that suggests the organizational structure/management style will change. Too bad...there's a chance one side of the ball will be competent next season.

[Skinsinparadise]

In terms of Antonio Pierce if you judge his status based on the recent article by the Washington Post about Gregg Williams -- he actually loves to this day Gregg. He complemented Gregg in the article and Gregg said something to the effect that he'd be accused of collusion with Pierce because they remain buddies who talk multiple times a week. Perhaps Gregg gave the OK that Pierce was expendable but it was the front office that appeared to screw this one up. Having said that Pierce clearly didn't leave out of disgust about how he waa treated while here -- he was simply hurt that he wasn't brought back. As to Lavarr Arrington seems like Dale Lindsey the LB coach was on the forefront on what went down and he IMO didn't show much class taking shots at Lavarr before the Giants game this year. IMO Lavarr is better than Holdman but way overpaid for the type of player he is these days. As to Fred Smoot is there something I am missing? It seems like some of our members see him as a stud CB. Heck he lost his starting job with the Vikings, he's their nickle guy. Yes as our nickle CB I'd take him over Kenny Wright any day but as a starting corner nope -- find me any article of late that calls Fred Smoot an elite cornerback. IMO he's far from it. Pierce is a different story, he's a beast, and IMO letting him go to a division rival was the dumbest of all the dumb things we've done of late. And we didn't treat AA with much class -- I agree with that, too.

[Om]

One thing I've noticed never seems to get mentioned is the players the Redskins have re-signed in the Snyder era ... like Betts, Cartwright and Evans this year for instance. They don't get quite the attention the more juicy discussions of well-publicized cases like LA or Pierce's ... but I suspect if we went back over the last few seasons we might find that the Redskins do in fact "take care of their own" more often than they get credit for.

Anyone up for a little research?

[Park City Skins]

I'll start it off. Just picking a couple of names out of the air, Chris Samuels was re-signed in 2005 as well as Lemar Marshall. Recently of course, there was Ethan Albright.

[ntotoro]

Recently of course, there was Ethan Albright.

A guy who is perenially re-signed.

I think the 'Skins take better care of their own than they get credit. It's mostly these drama queens who go out and talk trash who divert attention to themselves. Pierce & LaWanda has been gone almost a year and the bitterness never ends. The latter of the two hasn't even played a game in months and still talks more than about his own mess of a team.

[cakmoney61]

Whether its LAs fault or AA's fault or GW's fault becomes irrelelvant when the perception starts to become that our coaches treat their players POORLY. I'm sure these player all 'talk shop' as much as anyone else in the professional world, so word gets around.

As someone else said, where there is smoke there is fire and it wont be too long before quality FAs hestitate to sign here for fear of being mistreated. Whats worse is that the type of players that WILL want to sign here will be the mercenaries just looking for the quick buck.

I sincerely hope that you are right about Gibbs. To me, its inexcusable that the Skins could be aquiring a poor reputation around the league from a players' point of view.

There is a major problem with the FO and coaches when you let proven talent leave and overpay for "potential" that doesn't even pan out. The remaining players are watching this and wondering what's going on.

Not only have the Skins failed in the way they don't keep proven players and overpay to acquire personnel, they have failed in the management of the psyche of their players. I don't think the players perceive any loyalty from the FO or the coaches, which has led to a serious morale problem.

I don't see how you remedy this is one offseason, especially when you don't have a 2nd-, 3rd-, or 4th-round draft pick this year.

[fansince62]

A guy who is perenially re-signed.

I think the 'Skins take better care of their own than they get credit. It's mostly these drama queens who go out and talk trash who divert attention to themselves. Pierce & LaWanda has been gone almost a year and the bitterness never ends. The latter of the two hasn't even played a game in months and still talks more than about his own mess of a team.

You guys certainly nailed it!

The Skins take care of everything - except building a winning roster. This is really a poor attempt at counter-argument.

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN SO HOSED UP ON THIS TEAM THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. rationalize all you want with sidebar players......it has led to 15 years of dismal results. the facts - as some so often referenced over the ES years - speak for themselves...unequivocally. we have not had a championship caliber team since 1991. Over this long a stretch there can only be one explanation - management.

[robotfire]

THAT is the main difference I see in the Gibbs of lore and the Gibbs of today. The Gibbs I grew up with was not afraid to take risks, make tough or unpopular decisions, piss some people off or cut ties when it wasn't working. Today's Gibbs is more concerned with keeping everyone happy than winning, it seems, and it's high time he let go of worrying about people's feelings and did what's best for the team instead.He kept Brunell in there for a very long time, which was unpopular with the fans. It was the right move at the time, however. Unfortunately, it looks like he'll have to cut ties with Brunell this offseason. He kept Derrick Frost as a kicker, even though Frost was terrible the year before. I can't think of a single time where Gibbs has done something to keep others happy in spite of what it means for the team. He'd cut Clinton Portis if he thought it was best for the team.

[The Full Monty]

Clinton Portis on January 2nd...Clinton Portis blows any idea that we take care of core Redskins out of the water.

http://www.sportstalk980.com/cc-common/podcast/request_song.php?CPROG=PCAST&MARKET=WASHINGTON-DC&NG_FORMAT=sportstalk&SITE_ID=1265&STATION_ID=WTEM-AM&PCAST_AUTHOR=SportsTalk_980&PCAST_CAT=Sports&PCAST_TITLE=The_John_Thompson_Show&enclosure_url=http%3A%2F%2Fa1135.g.akamai.net%2Ff% 2F1135%2F18227%2F1h%2Fcchannel.download.akamai.com %2F18227%2Fpodcast%2FWASHINGTON-DC%2FWTEM-AM%2F01-02-07+Clinton+Portis.mp3


Clinton Portis: There might be 12-15 core Redskins...You ask me the core Redskins? Rock Cartwright, James Thrash, Sean Taylor, Santana Moss, Antwaan Randel-El, David Patten, a guy who you don't see...Dave always got insight, always lending a helping hand...

Doc Walker: How many core players in your mind are gone? Because when I think of a guy like Robert Royal...

Clinton Portis: Robert Royal, Antonio Pierce, RYAN CLARK.

RYAN CLARK WAS THE BIGGEST CORE REDSKIN OF ALL TIME IF YOU ASK ME, THE MAN WAS EVERYTHING YOU ASKED OF ANY PLAYER, HE STAYED OVER IN THE LOCKER ROOM TILL 9 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT STUDYING FILM, HE BROUGHT HIS SON OVER, and was there early in the morning ready to work. HE'S EVERYTHING YOU LOOKING FOR, LEAST THAT'S WHAT YOU SAY YOU LOOKING FOR, AND RYAN CLARK'S GONE...

I called to the Redskins office a thousand times when Ryan was in the midst of doing his deal...and begged them not to let him go...I called them a thousand times not to let Antonio Pierce go...we let guys go and bring guys in who got more money then they was askin for...

I have no problem with Adam Archuletta, you can't blame him for not fitting in, but what you ask him to do, Ryan Clark was already doing.

[Morneblade]

DC,
I agree with a lot of what you have to say with the exception of Antonio Pierce. he should thank the skins for giving him a chance to begin with.

He got a chance because Micheal Barrow (old-ass FA from the Giants) screwed his knee up and couldnt go. Pierce would have never seen the field except for that.

[Om]

You guys certainly nailed it!

The Skins take care of everything - except building a winning roster. This is really a poor attempt at counter-argument.

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN SO HOSED UP ON THIS TEAM THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. rationalize all you want with sidebar players......it has led to 15 years of dismal results. the facts - as some so often referenced over the ES years - speak for themselves...unequivocally. we have not had a championship caliber team since 1991. Over this long a stretch there can only be one explanation - management.
Meh. That's not what we were suggesting and you know it. Way to join the torch and pitchfork crowd and reduce this thing to one pat answer. Just so much easier that way, ain't it?

[Isifhan]

Clinton Portis on January 2nd...Clinton Portis blows any idea that we take care of core Redskins out of the water.


Right, because we can ignore the six that Clinton mentioned whom we have taken care of and focus on the one who we let get away?

[The Full Monty]

Right, because we can ignore the six that Clinton mentioned whom we have taken care of and focus on the one who we let get away?
Who's ignoring anything?

I included the whole thing in context didn't I?

The one we let get away was the "biggest core Redskins of all time" according to CP,

You listened to it, yeah? What's YOUR take?

[scruffylookin]

You guys certainly nailed it!

The Skins take care of everything - except building a winning roster. This is really a poor attempt at counter-argument.

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN SO HOSED UP ON THIS TEAM THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. rationalize all you want with sidebar players......it has led to 15 years of dismal results. the facts - as some so often referenced over the ES years - speak for themselves...unequivocally. we have not had a championship caliber team since 1991. Over this long a stretch there can only be one explanation - management.

Bingo.

We resigned Cartwright....whoopee......we've locked up a marginal return man and good special teams guy while we let go our starting middle linebacker (Pierce), our starting safety (Clark) and our starting cornerback (Smoooooooot).

Look at last month, they resigned Betts to a new contract but he's a backup runningback. It's nice to have him and all but he's a backup and role player. Yet we still have Chris Cooley out there one year away from free agency. He's a starter, he's a key cog in this offense and he's still not locked up long term.

I'm assuming they'll get that done, but the longer they wait, Cooley and his agent will just say (rightly so) "we're not going to negotiate during the season and we'll wait and see what the market is for Chris in March.......but we'll give the Redskins every opportunity to match" :doh:

As for the list, here's a list a UFA in 05 and 06

2005:

Brian Kozlowski
Mike Sellers (resigned)
Ethan Albright (resigned)
Ray Brown (resigned)
Joe Salavea (resigned)
Antonio Pierce
Fred Smoot
Cederic Killings (resigned)
Pat Dennis
Jason Doering
Jeff Chandler

2006:

Rock Cartwright (resigned)
Robert Royal
Ethan Albright (resigned)
Cederic Killings
Demetric Evans (resigned)
Khary Campbell (resigned)
Warrick Holdman (resigned) :doh:
Omar Stoutmire
Ade Jimoh (resigned)
Ryan Clark
Chris Clemons (resigned)

And now 2007:

Ladell Betts (resigned)
Derrick Frost
Ethan Albright (resigned)
Ade Jimoh
Kenny Wright
Vernon Fox
TJ Duckett
Todd Yoder
Todd Wade
Mike Pucillo
Jeff Posey
Warrick Holdman

Seems to me the only regular starter we've resigned was Joe Salavea prior to the 05 season.

We let go of Pierce, Smoot, Clark, and Royal.

[Isifhan]

Who's ignoring anything?

I included the whole thing in context didn't I?

The one we let get away was the "biggest core Redskins of all time" according to CP,

You listened to it, yeah? What's YOUR take?

Your contention was that CP blows ANY NOTION that we take care of our own. You then produce a transcript in which CP lists six players whom he considers core redskins, still on the team, all of which who have been contractually taken care of. My take is that you are mistaken.

[SkinsFanMania]

excuse me, but I thought this article was about how the Crows were eliminated from the playoffs this weekend by the Colts.

[The Full Monty]

Your contention was that CP blows ANY NOTION that we take care of our own. You then produce a transcript in which CP lists six players whom he considers core redskins, still on the team, all of which who have been contractually taken care of. My take is that you are mistaken.
I suppose I value big-time contributors/leaders/starters as much as Clinton Portis does, and as such, agree with his dismay that we let such players leave. And I suppose I value the work ethic and leadership and quiet contribution of a Ryan Clark the way CP does, and as such, his departure coupled with the others undermines, and to me, destroys, the notion that we take care of CORE guys when it comes to the big-time deals. There we go.

[ntotoro]

You guys certainly nailed it!

The Skins take care of everything - except building a winning roster. This is really a poor attempt at counter-argument.

PERSONNEL MANAGEMENT HAS BEEN SO HOSED UP ON THIS TEAM THERE IS NO ARGUMENT. rationalize all you want with sidebar players......it has led to 15 years of dismal results. the facts - as some so often referenced over the ES years - speak for themselves...unequivocally. we have not had a championship caliber team since 1991. Over this long a stretch there can only be one explanation - management.

No one is suggesting the FO is without fault, Al, and you know it. I didn't want to see Ryan or Antonio leave. I sure as hell didn't want to see Adam sign. LaVar's and Antonio's bellyaching, considering the latter chose to leave of his own volition is unnecessary. It's like getting a new girlfriend and doing nothing for a year but complaining about the old one.

Ryan, on the other hand, has yet to say a word and has been first class all the way. He knew he chose not to re-sign for his own reasons.

There is a certain reactionary mentality that exists when a mistake is made. That's not just football, but life. One ignores everything that has happened except for the negative.

[fansince62]

No one is suggesting the FO is without fault, Al, and you know it. I didn't want to see Ryan or Antonio leave. I sure as hell didn't want to see Adam sign. LaVar's and Antonio's bellyaching, considering the latter chose to leave of his own volition is unnecessary. It's like getting a new girlfriend and doing nothing for a year but complaining about the old one.

Ryan, on the other hand, has yet to say a word and has been first class all the way. He knew he chose not to re-sign for his own reasons.

There is a certain reactionary mentality that exists when a mistake is made. That's not just football, but life. One ignores everything that has happened except for the negative.

N-man......reactionary? there is a history here. the players emotions, as you point out, will lead them to say certain things. my point is that it is the personnel management strategies that get everyone to this point in the first place. how can the team build to a "core Redskin" center when it's whole strategy is predicated on quick personnel changes/solutions based on a win now mindset? it seems to me that Joe has been struggling with just that problem as he speaks to core Redskins but is enamored with the Free Agency candy store. a transition may be in place - but it's taking way too long to make it happen...one has to wonder why.

[NVskinsfan]

After 1 great year and 2 mediocre years from Arrington...then he now is "injury prone" he has little room to run his yap....he became a malcontent....

[Hiro]

After 1 great year and 2 mediocre years from Arrington...then he now is "injury prone" he has little room to run his yap....he became a malcontent....

while i do agree that pierce and arrington don't have the right to constantly bash this organization (as this shows their lack of class) i can sympathize with them. it kinda scares me that our organization is in this kind of disarray, and that it goes pretty high up. while watching the 91 documentary on our super bowl team, i really wished for an owner like jack kent cooke again. sigh ...