Social Security for illegal aliens

[Sarge]

Lovely. More money out of a system that won't last much longer for Americans as it is :doh:


http://washtimes.com/national/20070104-120950-4277r.htm


An agreement the Bush administration reached with Mexico on Social Security benefits would allow illegal aliens granted amnesty in the future to claim credit for the time they worked illegally.
The deal was reached in 2004 but never released publicly because it hasn't been submitted to Congress. The TREA Senior Citizens League, a Social Security advocacy group, recently obtained the document through a Freedom of Information Act, and said it confirms the group's worst fears.
The document is a jumble of definitions and legal language, but a spokesman for the group said what's important is what's not in the text: It does nothing to prevent undocumented aliens who later get legal status from receiving benefits for the time they worked illegally. And that comes as the Social Security system's finances are about to be put under greater strain by the retirement of baby boomers.
"If you open up the trust fund to people who have been working in the country illegally for many years, that bankruptcy date can only come sooner," spokesman Brad Phillips said. "People on the other side of this, people who have been arguing that of course illegal aliens can't get their hands on Social Security benefits, now can't make that argument easily anymore."
But Mark Lassiter, a spokesman for the Social Security Administration, said the agreement doesn't change U.S. law. The law states that those who do not have authorization to work will not get benefits under a totalization agreement.
"To get Social Security benefits, you do have to be legally in the United States. This agreement does not address in any way immigration, immigration laws or override current law," he said, adding that a 2004 law, the Social Security Protection Act, prevents illegal aliens from getting benefits.
But the seniors group said the 2004 law also states that if those aliens later get legal status -- through an amnesty or some sort of legalization plan such as the one President Bush and the Senate tried to enact last year -- they would be able to collect the benefits based on their time as illegal workers.
The deal has not taken effect because Mr. Bush has not signed it or submitted it to Congress. Once he does, Congress would have 60 days to vote against it or it automatically would become law.
Congress has never defeated any of the 21 other totalization agreements the United States has reached. Most of those have been with European nations, with the financial effects known to be smaller.
Some lawmakers say Mr. Bush has not submitted the agreement because it would get caught up in the debate over Social Security's poor fiscal health, which could doom the measure.
Totalization agreements end double taxation, so workers have to pay only into one country's system, and allow a worker who didn't have enough credits in any one country to qualify for benefits to pool his or her credits. In the United States, it takes 10 years, or 40 quarters, to qualify.
Mr. Lassiter said that's not to say Mexican workers who spent less time, such as the six quarters minimum needed to pool credits, would get benefits equal to someone who had worked his or her full life here.

As for the document's status, he said the Social Security Administration hasn't submitted it to the State Department because officials are still waiting for the Mexican government to help reach a side agreement on how to treat illegal aliens. The United States sent a diplomatic note trying to clarify the situation but has not heard back from the Mexican government, he said.
"At this point, there's no action that is planned or that will be taken until that process goes through," Mr. Lassiter said.
Rafael Laveaga, a spokesman for the Mexican Embassy in Washington, said the agreement has to be ratified by the Mexican Congress as well, but beyond that he had no details to offer.
The issue has been contentious for several years.
A 2003 report by the General Accounting Office, Congress' investigative branch, said the agreement with Mexico was shoddy work that didn't investigate the reliability of Mexico's data, or take into account the millions of illegal aliens who would become eligible.
The GAO also disputed the Social Security Administration's estimate that the agreement would cost $105 million a year for the first five years, saying the costs could be much higher given the uncertainty of who could benefit.

[Thiebear]

Back door crap like this pushes me further and futher away....
There is no vote really as the Congress has 60 days to vote "AGAINST" it or just let it go...

God forbid you bring this out into the open.... Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzz!!!!!!!!!!

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Why the **** are we giving these illegals anything other than a .223 in the head and a quick toss back across the border?!?!?!?!

This is absolute INSANITY. These people enter the country illegally, or overstay their legal visas, and now not only are we essentially pardoning them for committing one of the most grievious crimes imaginable, something that borders on an ACT OF WAR so far as I'm concerned; but the POTUS, a former governor of the State of Texas (who should know better than giving these people anything) is going to start taking MY MONEY and giving it to these wastes of flesh and oxygen.

I wouldn't have been surprised if our newly elected Democrat Congress had pushed for this, but the fact that the sitting POTUS, who CLAIMS to be a Conservative, did this two years ago really pisses me off. Just further proof that the United States no longer exists, and apparently was closer to not existing in recent years than I thought it was.

[Sarge]

Here's George Bush's phone number

Give him a call. I'm sure he'll give our views serious consideration:rolleyes:

(202) 456-1414 (202) 456-2461

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Here's George Bush's phone number

Give him a call. I'm sure he'll give our views serious consideration:rolleyes:

Sarge, that's why I remember a comment from history:

"The Tree of Liberty must occassionally be watered with the Blood of Patriots."

It seems to me that if there is any hope for the U.S.A. left (which I highly doubt) , that it's only going to see fruition through revolution.

[Thiebear]

i'm guessing pressuring the Congress to just say no might be easier and more efficient.

[SkinsOrlando]

Well, we already let people who come here at age 65 collect even though they never paid into it so this is no freakin surprise.

I need a new magnet my current one "Work harder millions on welfare depend on you" now needs replaced with "Work Harder millions of Illegals want your money too".

[Midnight Judges]

They pay into it just like we do. I don't see the problem.

[DCsportsfan53]

They pay into it just like we do. I don't see the problem.


But they're icky foreigners!

[SkinsOrlando]

They pay into it just like we do. I don't see the problem.


Illegals don't have Social Security Numbers ot Tax ID's, so exactly how do they pay into it? I

[Midnight Judges]

Illegals don't have Social Security Numbers ot Tax ID's, so exactly how do they pay into it? I

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=kmarx


TOCKTON, Calif. - Since illegally crossing the Mexican border into the United States six years ago, Ángel Martínez has done backbreaking work, harvesting asparagus, pruning grapevines and picking the ripe fruit. More recently, he has also washed trucks, often working as much as 70 hours a week, earning $8.50 to $12.75 an hour.
Not surprisingly, Mr. Martínez, 28, has not given much thought to Social Security's long-term financial problems. But Mr. Martínez - who comes from the state of Oaxaca in southern Mexico and hiked for two days through the desert to enter the United States near Tecate, some 20 miles east of Tijuana - contributes more than most Americans to the solvency of the nation's public retirement system.

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

[Midnight Judges]

Is the Washington Times retarded or just special? This would be for people given amnesty, not illegals.

[EersSkins05]

That's one of my favorite parts about the drummed up anger regarding illegal aliens.

No one ever mentions that they subsidize social security to the tune of around 7 billion dollars a year without receiving any of the benefits themselves.

Meanwhile, no one has any problem paying 1 dollar for a head of lettuce.

[SkinsOrlando]

Last year, Mr. Martínez paid about $2,000 toward Social Security and $450 for Medicare through payroll taxes withheld from his wages. Yet unlike most Americans, who will receive some form of a public pension in retirement and will be eligible for Medicare as soon as they turn 65, Mr. Martínez is not entitled to benefits.

So Mr. Martinez made 32,000 dollars that year, not bad for an illegal, I thought they all made poverty stricken wages.

[Sarge]

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?ex=1270353600&en=78c87ac4641dc383&ei=5090&partner=kmarx


I guess that two grand gives us something back for him being here illegally to begin with and probably partaking of social services while here

[EersSkins05]

So Mr. Martinez made 32,000 dollars that year, not bad for an illegal, I thought they all made poverty stricken wages.

Yeah, at 70 hours a week with no overtime pay.

That's a pretty hard worker. :2cents:

[Ignatius J.]

Again, immigration is an easy issue. The only ones opposing it are severely misinformed. Coincidence? I think not.

[KAOSkins]

So Mr. Martinez made 32,000 dollars that year, not bad for an illegal, I thought they all made poverty stricken wages.

THey did in Mexico, that's why they come here. Why did you think they went through all the trouble? There are of course a large number who work for particularly distasteful American employers who pay them cash under the table.

I alway wonder which is worse? Somebody who breaks the law to make SOME (desperation) money or somebody who breaks the law to make MORE (greed) money. I would favor the former.

[Popeman38]

Here is a question: Did Mr Martinez actually pay SS? Or did his employer (employing him illegally) withhold the money and add it to the profits?

[Ignatius J.]

It actually goes to SS. As long as it is going to SS, the employer is protected from charges of criminal activity. "What do you mean he's illegal, I've been putting all of his money into his social security account!" etc.

If the employer is paying cash or pocketing withholdings, then the employer is in troulbe too.

[DCsportsfan53]

THey did in Mexico, that's why they come here. Why did you think they went through all the trouble? There are of course a large number who work for particularly distasteful American employers who pay them cash under the table.

I alway wonder which is worse? Somebody who breaks the law to make SOME (desperation) money or somebody who breaks the law to make MORE (greed) money. I would favor the former.


Exactly. That's the part everyone against immigration LOVES to ignore. We don't go after or try to penalize the employers who gain by employing cheap, illegal labor instead of Americans. If you want to stop illegal immigration, that's where you start. Forget a stupid fence, stop allowing our businesses to reap the benefits and encourage illegal labor and then turn around and say "those dirty illegals are breaking our poor wittle laws".

[KAOSkins]

Exactly. That's the part everyone against immigration LOVES to ignore. We don't go after or try to penalize the employers who gain by employing cheap, illegal labor instead of Americans. If you want to stop illegal immigration, that's where you start. Forget a stupid fence, stop allowing our businesses to reap the benefits and encourage illegal labor and then turn around and say "those dirty illegals are breaking our poor wittle laws".

Amen brother!

The fence is an icon to xenophobes and it represents their view in a very symbolic way, whether it will work or not. I've found many of them don't care to hear sensible arguments about why a fence won't work. It really is almost spritual to them.

I also find that most opponents of the fence are NOT for open borders. They just realize the fence won't work if it isn't manned and if it's manned then why the hell do we need the fence?

[Thiebear]

Amen brother!

The fence is an icon to xenophobes and it represents their view in a very symbolic way, whether it will work or not. I've found many of them don't care to hear sensible arguments about why a fence won't work. It really is almost spritual to them.

I also find that most opponents of the fence are NOT for open borders. They just realize the fence won't work if it isn't manned and if it's manned then why the hell do we need the fence?


I thought San Diego proved it would work...

[KAOSkins]

I thought San Diego proved it would work...

In urban areas, yah. In the remote desert nah. I all for putting them in the urban areas, in fact they're pretty much already there. But a couple thousand miles in the middle of nowhere? Not a good idea. If we don't man it, they'll dig under or go over. If we're going to man it then we don't need it. They probably should replace the four strand barbed wire that's fifty years old, but that would be pretty cheap. It's the tall concrete ones, like San Diego that are impractical in the desierto.

[codeorama]

I can't believe this... what a effed up country we are becoming...

[Redskins Diehard]

Sarge, that's why I remember a comment from history:

"The Tree of Liberty must occassionally be watered with the Blood of Patriots."

It seems to me that if there is any hope for the U.S.A. left (which I highly doubt) , that it's only going to see fruition through revolution.

...and tyrants. If you are referring to the Thomas Jefferson quote it includes tyrants as a "blood donor" also.

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

In urban areas, yah. In the remote desert nah. I all for putting them in the urban areas, in fact they're pretty much already there. But a couple thousand miles in the middle of nowhere? Not a good idea. If we don't man it, they'll dig under or go over. If we're going to man it then we don't need it. They probably should replace the four strand barbed wire that's fifty years old, but that would be pretty cheap. It's the tall concrete ones, like San Diego that are impractical in the desierto.

IMO, you are not well informed for living so close to the situation.

The fence works in the cities (like you said) but only because it IS manned! And they still dig under it and climb over it. :doh: It is just easier to catch them now.

And you are correct that a fence, by itself, would not help MUCH in the desert. But it does help with the method of travel. In the Imperial Sand Dunes of SE California, vehicle after vehicle (loaded with people) used to drive through the desert and onto I-8. Now they have barricades and the aliens have to walk to I-8 (or further) to be picked up. This makes it MORE manageable for the Border Patrol.

Your point about not needing a fence if the area can be manned is also false. Combine my previous paragraph with the fact that we (the US) don't have enough people to man these areas properly. It usually takes 2 Border Patrol vehicles/agents to apprehend 1 group/vehicle of aliens. And there are multiple groups/vehicles crossing in the same area to take advantage of this.

Mountain areas are a different story altogether. I don't know if there is a feasible way to stop the crossing in those areas (aside from cameras and reactive policing)




.

[Teller]

Is the Washington Times retarded or just special? This would be for people given amnesty, not illegals.

Translation: This would be for people who break laws we choose not to enforce, or laws we do away with after the fact, not people who have broken the laws we selectively DO enforce.

[PokerPacker]

i think immigration needs reform to make legal immigration actually possible and then we wouldn't have such a problem with illegals.

[redskins59]

The way I feel about illegals in America is that I think American companies need them. However, I feel that the 14th amendment needs to be reinterpreted. This would mean that babies of illegal aliens, when they grow up, won't become American citizens. That way, we will have a constant supply of illegal aliens who will go back to Mexico or wherever they came from, because they have no opportunity to become American citizens. Plus, American companies will have what they're looking for: a supply of people willing to work for less than minimum wage (of course it'll be illegal to hire them, but Amercan corporations are hiring them anyway). The money they earn in America will still be much, much higher than what they can make in Mexico. This way, both American corporations and Mexicans will be happy.
I must say that I support Bush's immigration strategy, that is let them work here on a legal basis. However, here's the deal, the minimum wage law should not, and must not, apply to illegal aliens. They are here for a reason: to work for less than minimum wage. Companies did not hire them to give them high wage in the first place. They serve a purpose.
Plus, we will not be importing Mexico's poverty.

[KAOSkins]

IMO, you are not well informed for living so close to the situation.

We're all entitled to our opinion, but for the record I deal with the Border Patrol at work on a regular basis. I am responsible for mapping the land use and ownership along my counties border with Mexico. I also grew up here and have hunted, hiked and drank a few beers on the dirt roads near the border. So, I'm going to disagree, of course, with your take.

The fence works in the cities (like you said) but only because it IS manned! And they still dig under it and climb over it. :doh: It is just easier to catch them now.

That's was exactly the point I was making.??? Fences don't work if they're not manned. Why the :doh:

And you are correct that a fence, by itself, would not help MUCH in the desert. But it does help with the method of travel. In the Imperial Sand Dunes of SE California, vehicle after vehicle (loaded with people) used to drive through the desert and onto I-8. Now they have barricades and the aliens have to walk to I-8 (or further) to be picked up. This makes it MORE manageable for the Border Patrol.

And why wouldn't the border patrol put up a station on the roads leading out of there? Here every direction I go I have to go through a BP checkstation. I assume it's the same in Cali, so there's something a little fugazzi with your description.

Also not living close to the Imperial Sand Dunes I am not familiar with the modes of travel illegals use there. Here crossings in the middle of nowhere are not in a vehicle. The immigrants hike by foot over hundreds of miles of desert and hope across a barbed wire fence where they hike a good long across ranches and desert until they encounter pavement. Then they hitch a ride or meet a prearranged pickup vehicle.

Your point about not needing a fence if the area can be manned is also false. Combine my previous paragraph with the fact that we (the US) don't have enough people to man these areas properly. It usually takes 2 Border Patrol vehicles/agents to apprehend 1 group/vehicle of aliens. And there are multiple groups/vehicles crossing in the same area to take advantage of this.

I already answered that one. They don't use vehicles when crossing. Not out here. I can provide you with many examples of these people dieing out there if you wish.

Mountain areas are a different story altogether. I don't know if there is a feasible way to stop the crossing in those areas (aside from cameras and reactive policing)

The cameras and reactive policing are what's need along the vast majority of the border. That's kinda what I meant by manning the fence. You can look at many of my previous posts in the immigration threads and see that is what I think will work. Perhaps I didn't phrase it well in this one.


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[redskin81]

Here in Texas its out of controll. The whole thing. I pay alot of money in rent. The family above is here illegally, the government pays all of their bills and I mean all of them not one of the 8 people piled into a 2 bed room works. They have 0 interest in learning to speak english. None at all. Why should they? Everything here is written in spanish and here in Texas you get a huge pay raise if you speak ebglish. My grandfather immigrated fom Greece. Want to know the first two things he did? Got a job and learned how to speak english. Im tired of people comparing these immigrants to those of the past. Its like night and day for the most part. Think im being racist? My best friend is hispanic and is about ready to help build the fence. Its a growing problem and misconception that they want to come here and work. Im not talking about those that really want a better life. Its the ones that abuse the system. Get a job and at least learn enough english to be able to function. Its not my place to learn a language that is not a part of my heritage. I dont ask any of you to learn Greek or native american.

[No_Pressure]

So a system we cant get right for Americans to begin with is now being expanded to include the Mexicans that come here right?

Shouldnt we get it to work for us before we even think about them?

[KAOSkins]

Here in Texas its out of controll. The whole thing. I pay alot of money in rent. The family above is here illegally, the government pays all of their bills and I mean all of them not one of the 8 people piled into a 2 bed room works. They have 0 interest in learning to speak english. None at all. Why should they? Everything here is written in spanish and here in Texas you get a huge pay raise if you speak ebglish. My grandfather immigrated fom Greece. Want to know the first two things he did? Got a job and learned how to speak english. Im tired of people comparing these immigrants to those of the past. Its like night and day for the most part. Think im being racist? My best friend is hispanic and is about ready to help build the fence. Its a growing problem and misconception that they want to come here and work. Im not talking about those that really want a better life. Its the ones that abuse the system. Get a job and at least learn enough english to be able to function. Its not my place to learn a language that is not a part of my heritage. I dont ask any of you to learn Greek or native american.

Really the only way we're going to keep those kind out, is to allow for the legal, timely entry of the ones who will be good citizens. Then, only the baddies will be trying to cross illegally, there will be a hugely smaller number of them and they will be easier to catch. Common sense isn't it?

[Thiebear]

If you stop the urban areas with the triple fence and drones you stop 80%???

[redskin81]

Really the only way we're going to keep those kind out, is to allow for the legal, timely entry of the ones who will be good citizens. Then, only the baddies will be trying to cross illegally, there will be a hugely smaller number of them and they will be easier to catch. Common sense isn't it?

It would be common sense if we were only talking about a handfull here. Good luck with your "smaller numbers" theory. Im all for the ones that want to come here and be good citizens. Learn the language and get a jon. I wouldnt move to Germany and expect to live off the government and not learn to speak German. Would you?

[KAOSkins]

It would be common sense if we were only talking about a handfull here. Good luck with your "smaller numbers" theory. Im all for the ones that want to come here and be good citizens. Learn the language and get a jon. I wouldnt move to Germany and expect to live off the government and not learn to speak German. Would you?

No, of course not. Though I do like me some German beer on occasion. :D

But the numbers I've seen don't bear out that many of them living off the system. I know it happens and it sucks to witness directly, but I'd think if they were right there by you and you knew they were illegals living off welfare, you could turn them in. Right? That's doubly illegal.

[redskin81]

No, of course not. Though I do like me some German beer on occasion. :D

But the numbers I've seen don't bear out that many of them living off the system. I know it happens and it sucks to witness directly, but I'd think if they were right there by you and you knew they were illegals living off welfare, you could turn them in. Right? That's doubly illegal.

Man i started to. I feel sorry foe the kids. Its not their fault that mom and dad choose to abuse the system. What would happen to the kids? And your right its the ones that break the law that give them all a bad name. I try not keep them seperate because there really are some that really come here and work hard to become citizens and contribute.

[KAOSkins]

Man i started to. I feel sorry foe the kids. Its not their fault that mom and dad choose to abuse the system. What would happen to the kids? And your right its the ones that break the law that give them all a bad name. I try not keep them seperate because there really are some that really come here and work hard to become citizens and contribute.

That sounds allright to me bro. I couldn't do it either. :cheers:

[Sarge]

Man i started to. I feel sorry foe the kids. Its not their fault that mom and dad choose to abuse the system. What would happen to the kids? And your right its the ones that break the law that give them all a bad name. I try not keep them seperate because there really are some that really come here and work hard to become citizens and contribute.

Turn them in. Then there's a few less you and I are paying for

[GhostofAlvinWalton]

Don't have time to get into it now, but I previously worked for the Border Patrol. I'm pretty sure I have a grasp of what is going on.

I thought you were saying that the fence should literally be manned like in San Ysidro or Calexico (an agent every block). my bad.

I think this is a tough discussion to have over the internet. Mainly because I don't have the time (or feel like) typing that much. :laugh:


.

[KAOSkins]

Don't have time to get into it now, but I previously worked for the Border Patrol. I'm pretty sure I have a grasp of what is going on.

I thought you were saying that the fence should literally be manned like in San Ysidro or Calexico (an agent every block). my bad.

I think this is a tough discussion to have over the internet. Mainly because I don't have the time (or feel like) typing that much. :laugh:


.

Fair enough brotha. I've typed my opinion on this issue a 100 times on here probably anyway, don't really feel like do it again either.