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Buford
January-4th-2007, 08:00 AM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/03/AR2007010301857.html



Democrats Hope to Take From Oil, Give To Green Energy



By Steven Mufson
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, January 4, 2007; A01


House Democrats are crafting an energy package that would roll back billions of dollars worth of oil drilling incentives, raise billions more by boosting federal royalties paid by oil and gas companies for offshore production, and plow the money into new tax breaks for renewable energy sources, congressional sources said yesterday.

Eager to paint themselves as different from the Bush administration and the past Republican majority, Democratic leaders are targeting a manufacturing tax cut in 2004 that they say gave unneeded incentives to the oil industry, Majority Leader Steny H. Hoyer of Maryland said in a briefing yesterday. Hoyer said Democrats are also planning to force oil companies to pay royalties on deepwater Gulf of Mexico tracts leased in 1998 and 1999; the Interior Department has said that the leases inadvertently failed to include provisions for royalty payments once oil prices rose above certain thresholds.

The repeal of the 2004 tax cuts for the oil and gas industry would generate nearly $5 billion, Democratic lawmakers said, quoting estimates by the Joint Committee on Taxation. The royalty payments would yield between $9 billion and $11 billion, Hoyer said.

But energy industry and congressional sources said that the details of the package remain in flux, in part because of disagreements among Democrats over how the revenue would be used and whether to also roll back oil and gas industry incentives in the Energy Policy Act of 2005, which was supported by many Democrats.

Democratic leaders said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi would introduce the energy package on Jan. 18, toward the end of the "100 hours" of legislative initiatives.

House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Charles B. Rangel and House Energy and Commerce Committee Chairman John D. Dingell want to be able to hold hearings before some of the key details of such a package are set. As a result, Pelosi will probably introduce the revenue-raising components first and set aside the money in a "fund" to be divvied up later.

Renewable energy lobbyists said that would set off a feeding frenzy among boosters of hydropower, nuclear, biofuel, geothermal and solar energy. Solar producers, for example, have a proposal to expand and extend tax credits for residential solar installations for eight years, which would cost $400 million.

"The Democrats are appropriately shifting money from the 20th-century technologies to the 21st-century industries," said Rhone Resch, president of the Solar Energy Industries Association. "If we want to see solar, wind and biofuels, we have to make that investment today."

Figuring out how to distribute incentives for renewable energy could be controversial. Some Democratic House members want to exclude nuclear power. Some renewable-energy advocates fear that Congress will scramble to provide too many incentives for corn-based ethanol production.

Pelosi's staff has asked the Congressional Budget Office to estimate revenue from several proposals, most based on ones introduced last year by Democratic lawmakers, including Reps. Maurice D. Hinchey (N.Y.), Edward J. Markey (Mass.), Jim McDermott (Wash.) and Brian Higgins (N.Y.).

McDermott's would alter the 2004 tax cut, which was adopted as a way to stimulate job growth by effectively trimming tax rates for a broad range of U.S. manufacturers, agriculture and extractive industries. Mark Kibbe, senior tax analyst for the American Petroleum Institute, said that when fully phased in by 2009 the provision would trim the corporate tax rate from 35 percent to 32 percent. McDermott's bill would eliminate the break for the oil and gas industry.

"From the perspective of our industry, it helped make U.S. oil and gas exploration projects or refining projects more cost-competitive with those abroad," Kibbe said.

The most likely change in the Energy Policy Act of 2005 would be the repeal of a clause that allowed oil companies to deduct geological and geophysical exploration costs instead of treating them as capital expenditures to be amortized over a longer period of time, said congressional aides and environmental lobbyists. This change would generate less than $1 billion in revenue over 10 years, they estimated.

A variety of proposals would target the question of royalties on the 1998 and 1999 Gulf of Mexico leases. (The Justice Department is investigating possible relationships between Interior Department officials and oil companies that received the leases, said two sources briefed on the investigations last month.)

Five companies representing about a quarter of the leases in dispute agreed last month to insert price thresholds for future royalty payments, but another four dozen firms have not agreed to change the terms of those leases.

"There are a lot of issues with that, such as the sanctity of contracts," said API's Kibbe. "The API doesn't think it's a bad idea to renegotiate contracts, as long as both parties think it's a good idea. "

But Democratic and many Republican lawmakers are adamant on the issue. Markey and Hinchey would bar companies that refuse to renegotiate those leases from getting any future leases on federal lands or in federal waters. Pelosi's office has even discussed a proposal made last year by then-GOP congressman Richard W. Pombo, who wanted to impose a $9-a-barrel "conservation fee" on oil produced in federal waters by companies that refused to renegotiate the 1998 and '99 leases.

"It deprives the American people of the production they own," Hinchey said. "If they think it's too expensive, we should leave it there."

Many House Democrats also want to prod oil companies into making back payments on the disputed leases. Those back payments could amount to $900 million to $2 billion, according to the General Accounting Office.

Environmental groups were happy. "The oil and gas bill is a clear departure from the previous Congress's infatuation with oil and gas handouts," said Erich Pica of Friends of the Earth.




Its a nice idea, but I'll believe it when I see it actually happening.

Sarge
January-4th-2007, 08:03 AM
And so starts wealth re-distribution

Buford
January-4th-2007, 08:08 AM
Der???????

and by Wealth re-Distribution, you mean no more tax cuts for those who post record profits?

Sarge
January-4th-2007, 08:22 AM
Der???????

and by Wealth re-Distribution, you mean no more tax cuts for those who post record profits?

ANd for those that actually do the drilling

Larry
January-4th-2007, 08:33 AM
IMO,

If the oil industry is posting record profits, then I'd say there's no reason at all for the federal government to be giving them special incentives to encourage them to do what they're already doing, anyway.

They'll drill, and refine, and all that other technical stuff, because there's a profit in it.

You don't need taxpayer incentives to encourage things that are profitable. The profit is an incentive.

But incentives can be useful in a situation where something isn't profitable, but might be, later.

(Now, IMO, it remains to be seen if that's what Congress will do with the money. Will they encourage development of viable alternatives? Or will they throw money at ADM and some hydrogen people so they can work on technologies that will never be profitable without subsidies?)

Edit: One big test about how sincere they are about alternative energies will be: Will they encourage more nuclear power? That's a technology that works, but that the Dem base doesn't like.

Buford
January-4th-2007, 08:41 AM
IMO,

If the oil industry is posting record profits, then I'd say there's no reason at all for the federal government to be giving them special incentives to encourage them to do what they're already doing, anyway.

They'll drill, and refine, and all that other technical stuff, because there's a profit in it.

You don't need taxpayer incentives to encourage things that are profitable. The profit is an incentive.

But incentives can be useful in a situation where something isn't profitable, but might be, later.

(Now, IMO, it remains to be seen if that's what Congress will do with the money. Will they encourage development of viable alternatives? Or will they throw money at ADM and some hydrogen people so they can work on technologies that will never be profitable without subsidies?)

Edit: One big test about how sincere they are about alternative energies will be: Will they encourage more nuclear power? That's a technology that works, but that the Dem base doesn't like.

Remember a few years ago with the X-Prize from private industry to whoever can get a vehicle into space, gets 10mil?

I'd suggest a gov't sponsered one that gives Billions to whoever can develop a viable alt clean energy. Break it into different catagories.

Auto
Home/Heating/Cooling
General Power

zoony
January-4th-2007, 09:19 AM
I'm a capitalist to the core, but Environmental Affairs is one area that I think the government needs to stick their nose into.

The reason? Industry, as history has proven time and time again, is completely incapable of regulating themselves.

:2cents:

....

Prosperity
January-4th-2007, 09:29 AM
Remember a few years ago with the X-Prize from private industry to whoever can get a vehicle into space, gets 10mil?

I'd suggest a gov't sponsered one that gives Billions to whoever can develop a viable alt clean energy. Break it into different catagories.

Auto
Home/Heating/Cooling
General Power

There is an experimental fusion reactor in the process of getting built in France. It is a co-op project between the EU, US, and Japan.

http://www.iter.org/

Oh and the if that's what the Dems are doing then that is great for the country.

Kilmer17
January-4th-2007, 09:36 AM
While I support the idea behind this, I hope everyone who thinks it's a good idea to take money from Big Oil realize that the net result will be a huge increase in gas prices.

I dont mind that at all, but Im going to laugh watching many of those supporting this idea, later bitching about gas prices.

Buford
January-4th-2007, 09:41 AM
They didn't cut prices when they were reporting record profits. Why expect anything different.

This time, if they jack up the prices. Hopefully we have a Congress who will drag them into hearings and maybe even get busted for price gauging.

Bang
January-4th-2007, 09:41 AM
While I support the idea behind this, I hope everyone who thinks it's a good idea to take money from Big Oil realize that the net result will be a huge increase in gas prices.

I dont mind that at all, but Im going to laugh watching many of those supporting this idea, later bitching about gas prices.

True true, but when the eventual day comes that we must wean ourselves from oil, that would happen anyway.
May as well bite the bullet.

In your case, diversify your stock holdings,, maybe into the area of chewable bullets?
Make a killing! :)

~Bang

Ignatius J.
January-4th-2007, 09:42 AM
Is it clear that this will result in higher prices? It certainly won't result in higher oil prices since oil is a commodity, but perhaps the refining incentives will go away, and that is a purely domestic market?

Regardless, higher gas prices are a good thing. Gas is way too cheap.

Also, it is telling that a call to eliminate wealth distribution from poor to rich is seen here by some as a call to welath redistribution. Way to show where your alliegance lies.

Kilmer17
January-4th-2007, 09:45 AM
I've been saying that for years. Gas is wayyyy too cheap in the US. Congress cant really regulate their pricing, unless they try and bring them all in on anti-trust charges (which I think has been tried iirc).

Im all for this to wean us off of gas, but it will take a massive increase in price before Joe-sixpack realizes their is a problem.

Prosperity
January-4th-2007, 10:05 AM
They didn't cut prices when they were reporting record profits. Why expect anything different.



Yeah, the economics behind all this is more complicated than just purely supply and demand. Though I think prices would go up if this were to happen. I just don't think cheap gas is ever something that benefits Big Oil (compared to.more expensive gas). But higher gas prices is actually a good thing. Walk more ride a bicycle, use more efficient cars, not that bad of a deal.

Edit: I think gas is described as an inelastic good, as in just because the price goes up doesn't mean the demand will go down. Well it would obviously go down if the price was really high, but most price increases wouldn't really effect demand.

Ignatius J.
January-4th-2007, 10:27 AM
Well, in most models, gas is treated as an inelastic good, but recent evidence suggests otherwise. For example, in los angeles (where we have an amazing bus system by the way) bus ridership reached passenger goals for 2010 during the summer gas hike. People were turning to public transportation to avoid using gas. It is far from perfecty elastic.

Zen-like Todd
January-4th-2007, 11:22 AM
This is good.

As for a few comments in this thread, there's something important for you guys to realize. It costs less money at current electricity prices (coal/hydroelectric/natural gas/nuclear/whatever), the overall mix of electricity generation to propel your car via electricity than it does via gas. It's less than a third of the cost per mile, actually. The only problem is that the costs are upfront (battery + elec. motor)... The regional electric companies need to work out a plan to subsidize upfront costs of plug-in hybrid purchases to speed things along. I could talk about this stuff forever, but I won't.

DCsportsfan53
January-4th-2007, 11:31 AM
While I support the idea behind this, I hope everyone who thinks it's a good idea to take money from Big Oil realize that the net result will be a huge increase in gas prices.

I dont mind that at all, but Im going to laugh watching many of those supporting this idea, later bitching about gas prices.


They didn't cut prices when they were reporting record profits. Why expect anything different.

This time, if they jack up the prices. Hopefully we have a Congress who will drag them into hearings and maybe even get busted for price gauging.

I have to agree, prices going up wouldn't be a bad thing. Those greedy ****s are going to do whatever they want, anyways, like was pointed out. They'll kill us with price raises during disasters, raise prices in anticpation of the more expensive next batch of barrels, despite the fact they're still selling us the cheaper barrels they still have, they'll find a way to screw people no matter what. I just can't see why in the world one of the most profitable and powerful industries in the world needs tax breaks when they already take in ridiculous profits. It doesn't make sense.