The Donte Stallworth Debate (join in)

[Westbrook36]

Well boys, the season is over for the 4 NFC East teams, and while I am happy with what the Eagles were able to accomplish, something just doesn't feel right. That something is the inevitable certainty that the Eagles will not resign Donte Stallworth.

Here is the deal. Stallworth is going to a be a UFA in a year where 2/3 of the teams in the league will have more than 20 million to spend on FAs in a weak WR FA class. Someone is going to overpay for his services. It will almost certainly not be the Eagles.

Seattle gave Branch 13 million. Stallworth will fetch at least that much. Reggie Brown got 9 million. The Eagles reportedly offered Stall that much. He declined. He wants to be an Eagle. He loves the city, organization, coaches, etc. I'm sure he also loves money.

From the Eagles standpoint, they don't feel they need to overpay for a WR. They have Brown, Baskett, Avant, and Lewis. I'm sure they'd like to save the Dante money and spend it to extend LJ Smith and sign perhaps one impact defensive FA.

The only problem is, injuries and all, Stallworth is a true number 1 WR. Brown can play like a number 1 in stretches, but he is better suited to dominate as a 2 WR. Again, Baskett is a better slot WR than being forced to make the leap to the number 2 WR.

From my vantage point, you have to overpay. Stallworth is 26. Brown is 25. Sign Donte, and along with Brown, Baskett, and Avant, you have the best WRs since the early 90s. Every year we have the WR question going into camp. Resign him and you don't have to worry about it for the next 5-6 years.

Unfortunately, I think his injury history and asking price, along with the fact the draft pick will move from a 4 to a 3 will make the Eagles politely pass.

Mistake.

[Henry]

Honestly, Stallworth looks a LOT like Santana Moss to me. A guy who at any time could take any pass and turn it into a game-changing TD. A guy who keeps defensive coordinators up at night.

I think you have to find a way to keep him, especially considering how far under the cap you are and how few players you give big contracts to.

[Pocono]

I believe the draft pick moves from a 4 to a 3 if he is re-signed before he becomes a FA. If this is true if he is re-signed it will be after 3/1. Another factor would be the fact that if they do lose him and he signs for Branch money they would likely receive a comp pick at the end of the 3rd rd in 08. So they would have had him for one year and give up a 4th in 07 only to receive a 3rd in 08. I think this would appeal to Joe Banner. If you look at the games he missed the Eagles O averaged the same amount of yardage as it did the games he played. You also have the hammy problem. I can live with it either way because I like what I've seen from Baskett so far and he should improve in his second year with this O and you also have Avant and Bloom who might bloom.

[Westbrook36]

This is the problem, Henry. We don't have a lot of room under the cap like in previous years. We are actually in the bottom 1/3 of the league in cap room with 12 million.

We have to sign Garcia, Stallworth, any potential FAs, and ink LJ Smith to an extension.

[blitzpackage]

I guess you have to try to keep him. The injuries I guess are becoming more and more part of the game with 'Tana missing a few starts because of a hammy. Hell, Steve Smith missed some time this year with hamstring injuries. If Donte is already in an Eagles uniform and is a true #1 IMO as well, the 'Birds need to come off the hip this time and actually pay their players.


*Woohoo! No more field goal team!*

[Westbrook36]

The Eagles have no problem paying their players, hence all the early extensions. The problem is they assign a dollar number to a position, and don't want to budge past that number, no matter how talented the player is. They already have some money locked up at WR. I'm sure they gave RB the deal thinking he'd be the big bread winner for the next few years and they'd get by with Baskett/Lewis/Avant.

[Henry]

This is the problem, Henry. We don't have a lot of room under the cap like in previous years. We are actually in the bottom 1/3 of the league in cap room with 12 million.

We have to sign Garcia, Stallworth, any potential FAs, and ink LJ Smith to an extension.

Well then I don't kow.

My position is that if you have the luxury of overspending on one or two guys, he'd be one to do it for. However, if overpaying him is going to box you in (*coughcoughHACKcough*) I guess you'd have to let him go. Signing him does have an element of risk, but to me the upside looks pretty huge.

[Westbrook36]

The offense was number 2 in the NFL. Without him, I'd still venture that it would be very good. The defense needs to be fixed.

That being said, I want Stallworth back at any cost.

Dammit, can't Lurie do a bunch of overextended Dan Snyder type contracts for just this year so the cap hit doesn't effect us in 07?!?! :(

[Who Del]

LJ Smith is as good as gone next year. So is Donte' this year. Spadaro and Company are already setting us up for their departure.

[DCSaints_fan]

Resign him.


Please ? :D

[Westbrook36]

Who_Del, you are in the segment of whiny Eagles fans that I hate. That being said, I like you.

[Skins4481]

As a Redskins fan, I hope you guys dont sign him. He has the speed and quickness of Moss. The only difference is that Moss has better hands and plays the deep ball better

[Who Del]

Stop putting an underscore in my name.

[jrockster21]

I don't believe Stallworth is a true #1 receiver. He looked good at times, sure, but he's still a complementary player in my opinion.

Comparing him to Santana Moss is lunacy.

[DCSaints_fan]

I believe the draft pick moves from a 4 to a 3 if he is re-signed before he becomes a FA. If this is true if he is re-signed it will be after 3/1. Another factor would be the fact that if they do lose him and he signs for Branch money they would likely receive a comp pick at the end of the 3rd rd in 08. So they would have had him for one year and give up a 4th in 07 only to receive a 3rd in 08. I think this would appeal to Joe Banner. If you look at the games he missed the Eagles O averaged the same amount of yardage as it did the games he played. You also have the hammy problem. I can live with it either way because I like what I've seen from Baskett so far and he should improve in his second year with this O and you also have Avant and Bloom who might bloom.

No one knows the exact wordings of that trade - the only thing that was reported was that the Saints would get a 3rd if the Eagles resign him to long term contract extension. I'm sure Loomis thought of a situation where they resign him after the draft and the Saints would get some type of compensation. (Maybe like a 4th of 5th in 08) And you can't assume you will get a 3rd in 08 should you fail to resign him. Plus even if you do it is a "lost oppotunity" meaning you failed to sign players to make up for him. For example, do you think the Saints would have been happy with a 3rd round pick had they failed to pick up Fujita and Brees this season, given that they lost Darren Howard and LeCharles Bentley? Perhaps that comparison is a little over the top, but you can see where I'm coming from. If they don't resign him it should be because they think he isn't reliable enough to demand #1 WR money or because of his tendency to get injured, but thats something else.

[AKM311]

Stallworth is good and all, but there is a reason why he succeeded this year. One he had a QB that could throw him the ball and second its his contract year. The reason why I would not give him a 13M signing bonus, is because he is not Moss, Smith or any of those. He has blazing speed, but average hands at best. What happens once he gets his money, his injuries and hands go back to normal? Then you just pulled a Redskins move. This is why your team has been successful, by not falling in traps like the Redskins do.

I would take a look at the FA WRs and pick someone from there. Look at the Pats, Caldwell and Gaffney? Come on!!! If McNabb is as good as you Eagles fans say, then another WR should be just as good.

[Henry]

I don't believe Stallworth is a true #1 receiver. He looked good at times, sure, but he's still a complementary player in my opinion.

Comparing him to Santana Moss is lunacy.

38 rec
725 yds
19.1 ypc
5 TDs

Those are Moss-like numbers for an injury-plagued season. And Moss has certainly had his share of injury-plagued seasons.

When healthy, Stallworth is a similar home-run threat.

[jeronimobrat]

The offense was number 2 in the NFL. Without him, I'd still venture that it would be very good. The defense needs to be fixed.

That being said, I want Stallworth back at any cost.

Dammit, can't Lurie do a bunch of overextended Dan Snyder type contracts for just this year so the cap hit doesn't effect us in 07?!?! :(

I love you enthusiasm, but that is certainly not route that your FO would want to go. Although, I love that an archrival is taken admiration of our owner's willingness to spend.

[blitzpackage]

38 rec
725 yds
19.1 ypc
5 TDs

Those are Moss-like numbers for an injury-plagued season. And Moss has certainly had his share of injury-plagued seasons.

When healthy, Stallworth is a similar home-run threat.

Moss had 55 receptions for 790 yards and six touchdowns. Seems comparable to me as well.

But on second thought, with Reggie Brown and Westbrook catching so many balls, it is interesting to see how much Lurie will value Donte.

[jrockster21]

38 rec
725 yds
19.1 ypc
5 TDs

Those are Moss-like numbers for an injury-plagued season. And Moss has certainly had his share of injury-plagued seasons.

When healthy, Stallworth is a similar home-run threat.

He's a home-run threat, no doubt. But look at Santana's numbers, in an injury-plagued season, with a shoddy QB with an injured shoulder for half the year, and a first time starter the second half of the year:

55 rec
790 yards
14.4 avg
6 TDs

And I'm sure I don't have to tell you how under-utilized he was this season.

Stallworth doesn't run great routes, and has decent hands at best. He does look very good in the Eagles' offense, but hell...Todd Stinkston put up 18.8 ypc a couple years ago in that offense. Its the WCO - made to make WRs look good. It took a WR with average speed and excellent hands, and made him look phenomenal (Jerry Rice).

Again IMO comparing Stallworth to Moss is lunacy....he's a deep threat, but better suited for the #2 spot.

[Pocono]

No one knows the exact wordings of that trade - the only thing that was reported was that the Saints would get a 3rd if the Eagles resign him to long term contract extension. I'm sure Loomis thought of a situation where they resign him after the draft and the Saints would get some type of compensation. (Maybe like a 4th of 5th in 08) And you can't assume you will get a 3rd in 08 should you fail to resign him. Plus even if you do it is a "lost oppotunity" meaning you failed to sign players to make up for him. For example, do you think the Saints would have been happy with a 3rd round pick had they failed to pick up Fujita and Brees this season, given that they lost Darren Howard and LeCharles Bentley? Perhaps that comparison is a little over the top, but you can see where I'm coming from. If they don't resign him it should be because they think he isn't reliable enough to demand #1 WR money or because of his tendency to get injured, but thats something else.

I don't think the NFLPA would allow a trade clause that would inhibit a player's movement once he reaches FA status other than the franchise player and transition player designation which is in the CBA.

I agree that it wouldn't have been a good idea for the Saints last year but the Eagles aren't as needy from a personnel standpoint as the Saints were at that point. The Eagles may feel they can meet their needs with the draft and the players coming back off of IR without dipping into the FA market which will no doubt be the most over paid in NFL history because of the lack of talent available and the huge amount of cap space avalable league wide.

Westy...If it's cap space the Eagles need they likely have about 15M available to them if they guarantee the roster bonuses in the extensions they wrote for Patterson Cole Brown and Herremans or they could sign Stallworth to a normal NFL contract which isn't front loaded and calls for only 1/6th of the signing bonus and minimum salary in the first year...maybe a 2.5M-3M cap hit.

[AKM311]

He's a home-run threat, no doubt. But look at Santana's numbers, in an injury-plagued season, with a shoddy QB with an injured shoulder for half the year, and a first time starter the second half of the year:

55 rec
790 yards
14.4 avg
6 TDs

And I'm sure I don't have to tell you how under-utilized he was this season.

Stallworth doesn't run great routes, and has decent hands at best. He does look very good in the Eagles' offense, but hell...Todd Stinkston put up 18.8 ypc a couple years ago in that offense. Its the WCO - made to make WRs look good. It took a WR with average speed and excellent hands, and made him look phenomenal (Jerry Rice).

Again IMO comparing Stallworth to Moss is lunacy....he's a deep threat, but better suited for the #2 spot.

I agree. Have you seen Stallworth adjust to the ball in the air like Moss does? Have you seen 3 people covering him at once and somehow he scores a TD?

[Henry]

I hate doing this, because I like Moss a lot and I hate the Eagles.

He's a home-run threat, no doubt. But look at Santana's numbers, in an injury-plagued season, with a shoddy QB with an injured shoulder for half the year, and a first time starter the second half of the year:

55 rec
790 yards
14.4 avg
6 TDs

And I'm sure I don't have to tell you how under-utilized he was this season.

Moss has had more than one season with those types of numbers. His numbers the year before he signed with us are also similar. We've been fortunate enough to see his impressive upside, when he's healthy and things are going right with the QB and the offense. But when things aren't perfect he has been known to get 700-800 yards and 5-6 TDs. Just like Stallworth.

Stallworth doesn't run great routes, and has decent hands at best. He does look very good in the Eagles' offense, but hell...Todd Stinkston put up 18.8 ypc a couple years ago in that offense.

Pinkston was opposite TO that one time he put up 18.8 ypc. And that year he only had 1 TD. He was never considered a home-run thread by anyone anywhere.

Its the WCO - made to make WRs look good. It took a WR with average speed and excellent hands, and made him look phenomenal (Jerry Rice).

Not quite sure what to make of this. Stallworth is an ok player because he looks good in the same offense that Jerry Rice looked good in? Um ... does anyone anywhere on planet Earth not think Rice is the greatest WR of all time? Does anyone seriously qualify Rice's accomplishments as the product of a system? I mean ... is that what you are saying? In that case I won't argue with you about Stallworth anymore. No point.

Again IMO comparing Stallworth to Moss is lunacy....he's a deep threat, but better suited for the #2 spot.

That's exactly what people said about Moss when we picked him up.

[pointyfootball]

I'm severely torn on this subject. I love Donte because I think he's an excellent team player (from what I can see) and he really opens things up for the other WRs and TEs by being able to really stretch the defense. Him blowing by the Saints CB for that 75yarder was a thing of beauty and really was the only offensive play the Eagles had for the first 20 minutes or so. I'd love to have him start for us next year. He's young, fits well in this offense and has good chemistry with the team. As to whether or not he's a #1, I could care less - he had two big TD catches in the playoffs which is when it really matters.

In looking at their existing WR corps, Avant and Baskett (had a great catch on 4th &10 play this past Saturday) are not speed-burners and won't challenge safeties deep. Either can be good #3 and #4 receivers (I believe Lewis most likely will be gone, especially if Bloom is able to return kicks). Reggie Brown can get open deep but not like Stallworth. Losing him would change the dynamics of their offense, but if they continue to be more balanced offensively, maybe it won't matter that they don't have Stallworth.

All that being said, I'd also like to see the Eagles upgrade Buckhalter's position and get a RB that can get 30-40 tough yards per game to spell Westbrook and/or be able to come in for him in case of injury. The Eagles really can't afford to spend a lot more money on the offense, it's their defense that needs considerable upgrading. SS, LBs, backup CB & FS.

Torn,
PF

[Henry]

I agree. Have you seen Stallworth adjust to the ball in the air like Moss does? Have you seen 3 people covering him at once and somehow he scores a TD?

Moss adjusts to the ball better than just about anyone in the game. That doesn't mean a guy who doesn't do that isn't a comparable player in any sense.

[Terence Newman 41]

I can't knock Stallworth. Everytime I see him he is running 70 yards down the field and scoring touchdowns.

But, when he made the comment about owning Newman, he can kiss my butt on that.

[pointyfootball]

But, when he made the comment about owning Newman, he can kiss my butt on that.

When/what did he say? This is the first I've heard of this.

[jrockster21]

Moss has had more than one season with those types of numbers. His numbers the year before he signed with us are also similar. We've been fortunate enough to see his impressive upside, when he's healthy and things are going right with the QB and the offense. But when things aren't perfect he has been known to get 700-800 yards and 5-6 TDs. Just like Stallworth.

Nobody said that Moss isn't injury prone. He's had some nasty hamstring injuries, just like most burners will do.

Are you really arguing that Moss was the reason he's had bad seasons?? 2 years ago he was dealing with a hobbled Chad Pennington for 13 games, and Quincy Carter for 3 games. Pennington to begin with has a noodle arm and the Jets O did not go deep very frequently as a result - that still didn't stop him from putting up 1100 yards and 10 TDs the year before. This season, he had some hammy problems, and was playing with Mark Brunell for 9 games. You remember Brunell, right? The guy who refused to throw deep because he was playing with an injured throwing shoulder?? Yeah, that guy.


Pinkston was opposite TO that one time he put up 18.8 ypc. And that year he only had 1 TD. He was never considered a home-run thread by anyone anywhere.

Except Westy...:laugh: (considers Pinkston an "elite deep-threat.") You seemed impressed by Stallworth's ypc, so I mentioned it. I know Pinkston isn't very good, everyone (except Westy) knows that. But he still managed to put up almost 19 ypc in the Eagles' offense.

Not quite sure what to make of this. Stallworth is an ok player because he looks good in the same offense that Jerry Rice looked good in? Um ... does anyone anywhere on planet Earth not think Rice is the greatest WR of all time? Does anyone seriously qualify Rice's accomplishments as the product of a system? I mean ... is that what you are saying? In that case I won't argue with you about Stallworth anymore. No point.

I'm a little disappointed, Henry...expected more from you. Anyone familiar with the game of football knows that the WCO is catered to the wideout. Jerry Rice had average speed - he only ran about a 4.5-4.6 forty coming out of college. He had phenomenal QBs throwing him the ball in a system that makes WRs look good. Rice is an incredible talent to be sure, but would he have put up the same numbers in Washington with Heath Shuler et. al. throwing him the ball in a run-first, Norval type system? I think you know the answer to that one, Henry.

My only point is that the offense makes Stallworth look better than he is.

That's exactly what people said about Moss when we picked him up.

Yeah. To which he responded with a 1500 yard, 9 TD season. :laugh: What's your point again?? :laugh:

[jrockster21]

Riddle me this, Henry; who do think would have put up better numbers with the Eagles this past season - Moss or Stallworth?

[OWUeagleMD]

Riddle me this, Henry; who do think would have put up better numbers with the Eagles this past season - Moss or Stallworth?

I think they would have been just about the same. That being said, I'd still choose Moss.

Not to mention, Henry is only saying that they're comparable. It's not as though he is damnig Santana Moss.

I'll be upset when the Eagles don't sign Stallworth, but I've already accepted it as a reality. He is gone, without question.

[Leonard Washington]

I can't knock Stallworth. Everytime I see him he is running 70 yards down the field and scoring touchdowns.


that's it right there. the guy is good for one huge play a game.

[tml6157]

for our sake i hope you dont resign him, but i do think he would fit very well into your system. He played very well and is an excellent ball player but with Stallworth and Brown, u still need a big bodied WR that can go over the middle. whether thats baskett or avant is still to be seen yet but u should still keep him.

[jrockster21]

that's it right there. the guy is good for one huge play a game.

It seems that way, but he's a slow starter. He needs the big play to get going. He had 4 games with 2 catches or less; 1, 1, 2, 0. Moss had only one game with 2 receptions, the rest were 3 or more. Moss hit 6 recpetions twice, 7 receptions once and 5 receptions once. Stallworth had 6 receptions twice, 5 receptions once. To me, this indicates that Stallworth is much more streaky than Moss, with a much more reliable QB at the helm for most of the season. Stallworth had 3.2 catches per game, Moss had 3.9.

[Henry]

Nobody said that Moss isn't injury prone. He's had some nasty hamstring injuries, just like most burners will do.

Are you really arguing that Moss was the reason he's had bad seasons?? 2 years ago he was dealing with a hobbled Chad Pennington for 13 games, and Quincy Carter for 3 games. Pennington to begin with has a noodle arm and the Jets O did not go deep very frequently as a result - that still didn't stop him from putting up 1100 yards and 10 TDs the year before. This season, he had some hammy problems, and was playing with Mark Brunell for 9 games. You remember Brunell, right? The guy who refused to throw deep because he was playing with an injured throwing shoulder?? Yeah, that guy.

I love Moss. I'm glad he's a Redskin. But the bottom line is he's has had two good seasons in six years. You can make whatever excuses you want for the guy, but as much as we Redskin fans want him to be he's not a consistant star in this league. What he is is a guy who will put up amazing numbers when all is going well. That's a good thing. Lot's of teams don't even have a guy like that at WR. But let's not pretend he's the second coming of Jerry Rice.

I happen to think Stallworth could be a guy like that. A guy who, if put in the right situation could put up really good numbers. Maybe he doesn't adjust to the ball as well or what have you, but he's a guy that stretches the field, and if he can play a full 16, can be your big play guy in the passing game that other teams just can't seem to account for. He was exactly that for the Eagles when he wasn't hurt.

Except Westy...:laugh: (considers Pinkston an "elite deep-threat.") You seemed impressed by Stallworth's ypc, so I mentioned it. I know Pinkston isn't very good, everyone (except Westy) knows that. But he still managed to put up almost 19 ypc in the Eagles' offense.

I'm impressed by Stallworth's play. I didn't even know what his numbers were until WB36 started this thread and you said comparing him to Moss was laughable. Then I looked them up, and lo and behold, his numbers are very comparable to Moss'. I've also watched Pinkston play, and he's never been that impressive.

I'm a little disappointed, Henry...expected more from you. Anyone familiar with the game of football knows that the WCO is catered to the wideout. Jerry Rice had average speed - he only ran about a 4.5-4.6 forty coming out of college. He had phenomenal QBs throwing him the ball in a system that makes WRs look good. Rice is an incredible talent to be sure, but would he have put up the same numbers in Washington with Heath Shuler et. al. throwing him the ball in a run-first, Norval type system? I think you know the answer to that one, Henry.

We can argue all day whether the WCO made Rice or he made the WCO. If you want to think Rice was simply a good WR who played with better players so be it. However, that doesn't help your case in this discussion. It's irrelevant WHY Stallworth looks as good as he does with the Eagles. The fact is he DOES. If he's such a darn good fit for that team that he suddenly looks comparable to all-world Santana Moss, it would behoove the Eagles to find a way to keep him. That's the point.

My only point is that the offense makes Stallworth look better than he is.

Which is why the offense should keep him.

Yeah. To which he responded with a 1500 yard, 9 TD season. :laugh: What's your point again?? :laugh:

My point is that if Moss could respond with a season like that, so could Stallworth, as they are similar type of players with similar numbers when healthy.

You seem to think I'm trying to bash Moss. I'm not. At all. I like Moss a lot. Which is why I think the Eagles would do well to keep a guy who can do the same things for them that Moss does for us.

[Warhead36]

Lets just give Philly our 2nd and 3rd rounders in 08 for Donte and end this debate already. :doh:

In seriousness I think he's a talented WR who's injury prone, but in the Eagles system he will be put in position to make plays. But the Eagles FO knows what they're doing so I wouldn't be too down in the dumps if I were an Eagle fan and they let him go.

[Henry]

Riddle me this, Henry; who do think would have put up better numbers with the Eagles this past season - Moss or Stallworth?

Moss.

I'd rather have Moss than Stallworth.

That doesn't mean Stallworth can't remind me of Moss.

[pointyfootball]

It seems that way, but he's a slow starter. He needs the big play to get going. He had 4 games with 2 catches or less; 1, 1, 2, 0. Moss had only one game with 2 receptions, the rest were 3 or more. Moss hit 6 recpetions twice, 7 receptions once and 5 receptions once. Stallworth had 6 receptions twice, 5 receptions once. To me, this indicates that Stallworth is much more streaky than Moss, with a much more reliable QB at the helm for most of the season. Stallworth had 3.2 catches per game, Moss had 3.9.

But let's be honest, at least 2.8 of those catches per game were WR screens behind the line of scrimmage passes. :) Hence SM's significantly lower YPC. Also, SM was always the #1 passing option, with Cooley being 2nd. Stallworth had much more "competition" for catches with LJ, WB and RB getting quite a few balls as well.

I do believe most Philly fans would swap Donte for Santana in an instant though. Getting him the ball on the run, he'd gash defenses. Good receiver. Since a lot of skins fans want to trade portis, we'll trade Stallworth and Moats for Santana and Portis. Oh, and we'll throw in a 7th round pick so you get more picks. Deal?

[pointyfootball]

I like Moss a lot. Which is why I think the Eagles would do well to keep a guy who can do the same things for them that Moss does for us.

A non-homeristic, well said post.

[pointyfootball]

Lets just give Philly our 2nd and 3rd rounders in 08 for Donte and end this debate already. :doh:

In seriousness I think he's a talented WR who's injury prone, but in the Eagles system he will be put in position to make plays. But the Eagles FO knows what they're doing so I wouldn't be too down in the dumps if I were an Eagle fan and they let him go.

It's just been so few and far between good receivers that this team has seen, that when you get one, you don't want to see them go.

As to FO knowing what they're doing, WRT not resigning older players, I generally agree. Only real mistake I can think of them making recently was to allow Derrick BUrgess to leave. Of course at the time he had only had one injury-free season in 3 or 4 years, so they went with their best guess on him. Since he's joined the Raiders, he's been phenomenal.

[The-Rock]

This is the problem, Henry. We don't have a lot of room under the cap like in previous years. We are actually in the bottom 1/3 of the league in cap room with 12 million.

We have to sign Garcia, Stallworth, any potential FAs, and ink LJ Smith to an extension.

No problem, have Lurie give Snyder a call and he can learn all about manipulating the salary cap so you can bring in pricey players...that will underperform.

[Passizle]

Well boys, the season is over for the 4 NFC East teams, and while I am happy with what the Eagles were able to accomplish, something just doesn't feel right. That something is the inevitable certainty that the Eagles will not resign Donte Stallworth.

Here is the deal. Stallworth is going to a be a UFA in a year where 2/3 of the teams in the league will have more than 20 million to spend on FAs in a weak WR FA class. Someone is going to overpay for his services. It will almost certainly not be the Eagles.

Seattle gave Branch 13 million. Stallworth will fetch at least that much. Reggie Brown got 9 million. The Eagles reportedly offered Stall that much. He declined. He wants to be an Eagle. He loves the city, organization, coaches, etc. I'm sure he also loves money.

From the Eagles standpoint, they don't feel they need to overpay for a WR. They have Brown, Baskett, Avant, and Lewis. I'm sure they'd like to save the Dante money and spend it to extend LJ Smith and sign perhaps one impact defensive FA.

The only problem is, injuries and all, Stallworth is a true number 1 WR. Brown can play like a number 1 in stretches, but he is better suited to dominate as a 2 WR. Again, Baskett is a better slot WR than being forced to make the leap to the number 2 WR.

From my vantage point, you have to overpay. Stallworth is 26. Brown is 25. Sign Donte, and along with Brown, Baskett, and Avant, you have the best WRs since the early 90s. Every year we have the WR question going into camp. Resign him and you don't have to worry about it for the next 5-6 years.

Unfortunately, I think his injury history and asking price, along with the fact the draft pick will move from a 4 to a 3 will make the Eagles politely pass.

Mistake.

So...would you say he is the all around best WR in the league? What are his yards per touch this season?


Sorry. I just could not stop myself.:laugh:


He is a threat though. If the FO is smart, and the have been so far, they will keep him AND Garcia. I just dont know how McNabb is going to be after two years of season ending injuries, two years of surgeries. I wish him the best, but Garcia has looked real good in his absence.

[Henry]

So...would you say he is the all around best WR in the league? What are his yards per touch this season?

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[jrockster21]

I love Moss. I'm glad he's a Redskin. But the bottom line is he's has had two good seasons in six years. You can make whatever excuses you want for the guy, but as much as we Redskin fans want him to be he's not a consistant star in this league. What he is is a guy who will put up amazing numbers when all is going well. That's a good thing. Lot's of teams don't even have a guy like that at WR. But let's not pretend he's the second coming of Jerry Rice.

Never compared Moss to Rice...that was not my intention. Rice is in a class all on his own, with maybe only Monk that can compare with him.

I happen to think Stallworth could be a guy like that. A guy who, if put in the right situation could put up really good numbers. Maybe he doesn't adjust to the ball as well or what have you, but he's a guy that stretches the field, and if he can play a full 16, can be your big play guy in the passing game that other teams just can't seem to account for. He was exactly that for the Eagles when he wasn't hurt.

Bottom line - in 5 seasons, Stallworth has only come close to 1000 yards once. He's frequently injured, and while he is capable of the big play, he is also capable of disappearing from a game. He had four games of 2 catches or less - 2, 1, 1, and 0. That leaves 8 games that he was healthy and productive. If you extrapolate Stallworth's numbers this season for a full 16, they come out to 51 catches for 967 yards and 7 TDs. Decent, but not #1 WR material.

If Stallworth is so good - why has he never started all 16 games, even when healthy for all 16? Also, he played with Aaron Brooks who despite making stupid decisions at times, has all the physical talent in the world. For the first 4 years of Donte's career, Brooks averaged around 3700 yards passing and 25 TDs. Donte' was playing next to a great receiver in Joe Horn (he's no TO, but certainly commands the other team's top corner). Yet he never broke 1000 yards or 10 TDs. In FAR less amenable circumstances, Santana has broken 1000 yards twice, and gotten a 10 and a 9 TD season, both better than Stallworth's career high of 8 as a rookie. Normally, if you never match your rookie TD totals in the following 4 years of your career, its a bad thing...right? :whoknows:

Stallworth is an inconsistent, injury-prone WR who maxes out as an occasional deep threat. It so happens that he works well with Philly, because they've got Westbrook and other weapons, so he doesn't necessarily have to be a #1. But to compare him to Moss is ridiculous.

I'm impressed by Stallworth's play. I didn't even know what his numbers were until WB36 started this thread and you said comparing him to Moss was laughable. Then I looked them up, and lo and behold, his numbers are very comparable to Moss'. I've also watched Pinkston play, and he's never been that impressive.

What impresses you most - that he only showed up for 8 out of 12 games? Or that he's a career underachiever?

We can argue all day whether the WCO made Rice or he made the WCO. If you want to think Rice was simply a good WR who played with better players so be it. However, that doesn't help your case in this discussion. It's irrelevant WHY Stallworth looks as good as he does with the Eagles. The fact is he DOES. If he's such a darn good fit for that team that he suddenly looks comparable to all-world Santana Moss, it would behoove the Eagles to find a way to keep him. That's the point.

Then we're arguing two different things. You said Stallworth was comparable to Moss as a receiver. I think you may have meant Stallworth's numbers were comparable to Moss's numbers this season. Those are two completely different statements to make.


My point is that if Moss could respond with a season like that, so could Stallworth, as they are similar type of players with similar numbers when healthy.

If he could...then why didn't he?? He's been surrounded by a productive supporting cast his entire career, yet never had that type of season. When healthy, Moss is an 1100+ yard, 10+ TD receiver. Stallworth is not. Its that simple. I guarantee you with an improved Campbell, Portis back, ARE on the other side and if he stays healthy, Moss will approach the 1400 yard mark again this season. I also guarantee you that if Stallworth gets back to Philly, he does not approach the 1400 yard mark, even if healthy.


You seem to think I'm trying to bash Moss. I'm not. At all. I like Moss a lot. Which is why I think the Eagles would do well to keep a guy who can do the same things for them that Moss does for us.

Most Eagle fans in this thread have said they would trade Moss for Stallworth in an instant. If DS could do the same things for them as Moss - why would they be so ready to trade the two players? :whoknows:

[OWUeagleMD]

Juqua Thomas should be a priority as well. He was our best defensive lineman down the stretch, though I hear teams love the possibility of him as a 3-4 outside linebacker.

[Theo]

Don't forget, the Eagles will probably have some more money to spend when/if they release a few players.

Dhani Jones, McDougal and Tra Thomas all could be cut.

I'm not sure about cap hits, but I read that Thomas, who is due almost 5 million, can be cut without taking a hit. McDougal though I believe will be a cap hit. It actually might cost less to keep him.....Either way though, he has to go.

If that is indeed true, I wouldn't mind seeing Tra cut. Winston Justice is here and it's obvious the Birds are high on him. Tra is older with a tricky back. He is coming off a great year though. But if Justice is ready, I would love to see the extra 5 million.....That could in part go to resigning Donte (if the Birds like the price and don't mind givig up the 3rd rounder), Garcia and leave the rest to help on D (maybe the resigning of their own guys like Mikell and J. Thomas).

I admit though, I'm no genius when it comes to contract stuff. So what I said could be off base.... :silly:

Should be an interesting off season....

[jrockster21]

Juqua Thomas should be a priority as well. He was our best defensive lineman down the stretch, though I hear teams love the possibility of him as a 3-4 outside linebacker.

That is a premium position to fill in the 3-4 defense; if that is true, he'll probably be too expensive for the Iggs to keep. :applause: :D

[OWUeagleMD]

That is a premium position to fill in the 3-4 defense; if that is true, he'll probably be too expensive for the Iggs to keep. :applause: :D

He'll be a catch for whoever signs him.

[jrockster21]

He'll be a catch for whoever signs him.

I honestly hope they keep him, because he's undersized and can't stop the run. :D

[Westbrook36]

Eagles should have never got rid of Hollis Thomas. The DL they have are fine for the roll they are expected to play. The problem is when injuries happen and you have to put round pegs into square holes.

[OWUeagleMD]

I honestly hope they keep him, because he's undersized and can't stop the run. :D

Well I honestly hope your get your wish, because he has a high motor and gets to the QB with more consistency than any DE on our team.

[Westbrook36]

OWU, don't engage him. He is going to be repeating the same 4 topics all offseason. ;)

jrock will subtely ignore that Tiki ran for eleventy billion yards against the Skins while continually talking about how every player on the defense sucks against the run; if he watched them play a down of football or not.

[jrockster21]

OWU, don't engage him. He is going to be repeating the same 4 topics all offseason. ;)

jrock will subtely ignore that Tiki ran for eleventy billion yards against the Skins while continually talking about how every player on the defense sucks against the run; if he watched them play a down of football or not.

Wait...Juqua Thomas plays for the Skins? News to me...I must have missed that press conference. :whoknows:

[Westbrook36]

While talking about how every player on the Eagles defense sucks against the run.

Thought that was evident in the context of the discussion.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Stallworth reminds me of Moss in New York (and frankly of Moss at times in DC) in that he can be the scariest receiver in the league for a few weeks, being totally absent from the game for a few weeks, and always seems to be battling an injury. A healthy, motivated Stallworth is almost certainly worth anything he asks for. The Stallworth who exists in this universe may not.

[OWUeagleMD]

Wait...Juqua Thomas plays for the Skins? News to me...I must have missed that press conference. :whoknows:

Since I don't believe JT will be an Eagle any longer, I truly have no agenda in saying this.

Juqua Thomas would be the best DE on the Skins roster without question. I would take him over Andre Carter without blinking.

I know that isn't really waht we're talking about, but take it as a testament to how good I think he is. He deserves a shot, and I really hope it comes from us (he's better than Darren Howard too).

[jrockster21]

Since I don't believe JT will be an Eagle any longer, I truly have no agenda in saying this.

Juqua Thomas would be the best DE on the Skins roster without question. I would take him over Andre Carter without blinking.

I know that isn't really waht we're talking about, but take it as a testament to how good I think he is. He deserves a shot, and I really hope it comes from us (he's better than Darren Howard too).

DE is a position in which we are severely lacking pass-rushers, true. However Carter turned it on last year towards the end. Will he continue to improve? Who knows...its a wait and see approach. I'd rather have Daniels over Thomas, simply because of his size and ability against the run.

Now Trent Cole - I'd take him in a heartbeat. But none of this is either here no there. Leave it to Westbrook to bring the Skins defense into his own thread about Donte' Stallworth. :laugh: Westy, there are plenty of Stadium threads in which you can talk about the Skins' defense, and even specifically about the Skins' defense against the Giants. Please go there and let us talk about Stallworth and the Eagles in here. Thanks in advance.

[Westbrook36]

jrock, how are we supposed to talk about Stallworth and the Eagles when you bring the Eagles run defense INTO EVERY THREAD ABOUT THE EAGLES? Then, when the more poor Skins defense is brought up, you do the "talk about it in the Stadium" cowardice routine. I'll leave the Skins out of it as long as you stop changing the subject in order to needlessly derail discussions to bash the Eagles. Deal?

[jrockster21]

jrock, how are we supposed to talk about Stallworth and the Eagles when you bring the Eagles run defense INTO EVERY THREAD ABOUT THE EAGLES? Then, when the more poor Skins defense is brought up, you do the "talk about it in the Stadium" cowardice routine. I'll leave the Skins out of it as long as you stop changing the subject in order to needlessly derail discussions to bash the Eagles. Deal?

I didn't bring up Thomas, OWU did. I was engaged in a debate about Stallworth with Henry. I didn't change the subject at all.

Regardless of whether or not I brought it up, the Skins defense is irrelevant. So I repeat - please go to the stadium if you want to discuss the Skins defense.

[OWUeagleMD]

I really hope the Eagles resign Stallworth, JT and Garcia. If all three of those things happen I won't be severely dissapointed when we don't sign a single FA.

[Henry]

Bottom line - in 5 seasons, Stallworth has only come close to 1000 yards once. He's frequently injured, and while he is capable of the big play, he is also capable of disappearing from a game. He had four games of 2 catches or less - 2, 1, 1, and 0. That leaves 8 games that he was healthy and productive. If you extrapolate Stallworth's numbers this season for a full 16, they come out to 51 catches for 967 yards and 7 TDs. Decent, but not #1 WR material.

Wasn't that '0' game against the Falcons when Reid pulled all the starters? Also in one of the '1' games Stallworth had 1 catch for 26 yards. Is that dissapearing any more than a game in which Moss had 3 catches for 20, or 3 for 17, or 3 for 12? WRs have good games and bad games. All of them.

If Stallworth is so good - why has he never started all 16 games, even when healthy for all 16? Also, he played with Aaron Brooks who despite making stupid decisions at times, has all the physical talent in the world. For the first 4 years of Donte's career, Brooks averaged around 3700 yards passing and 25 TDs. Donte' was playing next to a great receiver in Joe Horn (he's no TO, but certainly commands the other team's top corner). Yet he never broke 1000 yards or 10 TDs. In FAR less amenable circumstances, Santana has broken 1000 yards twice, and gotten a 10 and a 9 TD season, both better than Stallworth's career high of 8 as a rookie. Normally, if you never match your rookie TD totals in the following 4 years of your career, its a bad thing...right? :whoknows:

Who knows? Maybe because Brooks can make even Randy Moss look bad. Maybe because Haslett was a lousy coach. Maybe because people smelled funny in NO and it threw off Stallworth's game. I don't know. I do know the guy looked a lot better in a new city with a new team. Such phenomena have been known to happen in the NFL from time to time.

Stallworth is an inconsistent, injury-prone WR who maxes out as an occasional deep threat. It so happens that he works well with Philly, because they've got Westbrook and other weapons, so he doesn't necessarily have to be a #1. But to compare him to Moss is ridiculous.

This is exactly what I said: "Honestly, Stallworth looks a LOT like Santana Moss to me. A guy who at any time could take any pass and turn it into a game-changing TD. A guy who keeps defensive coordinators up at night."

and I followed with this: "Signing him does have an element of risk, but to me the upside looks pretty huge."

In other words, I could see him breaking out for the Eagles like Santana did for us. You may not have noticed, but PLENTY of receivers have gone through the Philly offense and done nothing. Oh sure, all you need is a three-step-drop and a dream and any old shmuck who can run a good route will catch 1500 passes and go to 13 pro-bowls, but for some reason in Philly it hasn't worked that way. I think if they find a WR that can produce and isn't a horse's ass about it, they should probably try to keep him.

Then we're arguing two different things. You said Stallworth was comparable to Moss as a receiver. I think you may have meant Stallworth's numbers were comparable to Moss's numbers this season. Those are two completely different statements to make.

I didn't say either of those things, actually.

If he could...then why didn't he?? He's been surrounded by a productive supporting cast his entire career, yet never had that type of season. When healthy, Moss is an 1100+ yard, 10+ TD receiver. Stallworth is not. Its that simple. I guarantee you with an improved Campbell, Portis back, ARE on the other side and if he stays healthy, Moss will approach the 1400 yard mark again this season. I also guarantee you that if Stallworth gets back to Philly, he does not approach the 1400 yard mark, even if healthy.

Let's pretend they are both healthy and Moss gets 1400 yards and Stallworth only get 1100. Stallworth could still fathomably remind me of Moss. Sorry that the mere mention of them in the same sentence got you so riled.

Most Eagle fans in this thread have said they would trade Moss for Stallworth in an instant.

And I agreed with them.

[Westbrook36]

OWU, let Garcia go. He is going to cost 2-3 million. We have Feeley. If Garcia is in Philly, there is going to be that 30 percent minority of idiots who call for McNabb's head everytime he has a bad game. We don't need another circus.

[dockeryfan]

If that is indeed true, I wouldn't mind seeing Tra cut.
You do realize he had a pro bowl type season.

[dockeryfan]

Sorry, the Tra comment was off subject.

Stallworth needs to be re-signed. He fits well. OK. Hamstring issues. Won't play 16 games. I get it.

Who in FA would you want to replace him with?

Answer. No one. Pay the man and roll the dice with the injury bug.

[Westbrook36]

Andy loves his fat lineman who can pass block. Tra isn't going anywhere.

[OWUeagleMD]

OWU, let Garcia go. He is going to cost 2-3 million. We have Feeley. If Garcia is in Philly, there is going to be that 30 percent minority of idiots who call for McNabb's head everytime he has a bad game. We don't need another circus.

You are right about that, without question. I like Feeley too and think he could definitely steer the ship until McNabb returns. I guess I just assume that the 30% of morons are going to hate McNabb regardless of the situation surrounding him. If Garcia's around they'll want Garcia to start, if he isn't they'll hate McNabb for discretely forcing Andy Reid into letting him walk.

Those guys formed their opinion of McNabb a long time ago, and now everything they see on a football field in the NFL is some bizarre justification of their preconceived notions.

[OWUeagleMD]

Sorry, the Tra comment was off subject.

Stallworth needs to be re-signed. He fits well. OK. Hamstring issues. Won't play 16 games. I get it.

Who in FA would you want to replace him with?

Answer. No one. Pay the man and roll the dice with the injury bug.

Exactly.

[jrockster21]

Who knows? Maybe because Brooks can make even Randy Moss look bad. Maybe because Haslett was a lousy coach. Maybe because people smelled funny in NO and it threw off Stallworth's game. I don't know. I do know the guy looked a lot better in a new city with a new team. Such phenomena have been known to happen in the NFL from time to time.

This is exactly what I said: "Honestly, Stallworth looks a LOT like Santana Moss to me. A guy who at any time could take any pass and turn it into a game-changing TD. A guy who keeps defensive coordinators up at night."

and I followed with this: "Signing him does have an element of risk, but to me the upside looks pretty huge."

In other words, I could see him breaking out for the Eagles like Santana did for us. You may not have noticed, but PLENTY of receivers have gone through the Philly offense and done nothing. Oh sure, all you need is a three-step-drop and a dream and any old shmuck who can run a good route will catch 1500 passes and go to 13 pro-bowls, but for some reason in Philly it hasn't worked that way. I think if they find a WR that can produce and isn't a horse's ass about it, they should probably try to keep him.

We are talking about two separate things. Sorry for the confusion. No need for the sarcasm though - I never said "any shmuck will catch 1500 passes and go to 13 pro-bowls."


Let's pretend they are both healthy and Moss gets 1400 yards and Stallworth only get 1100. Stallworth could still fathomably remind me of Moss. Sorry that the mere mention of them in the same sentence got you so riled.

Just debating, not riled. Stallworth "reminding" you of Moss is different than comparing the two. Stallworth is incomparable to Moss.

And I agreed with them.

I would hope so.

[Westbrook36]

Perfect offseason:

Sign Stallworth, JT, and draft Brian Leonard. I'm sorry, but Tapeh is the slowest 4.6 I've ever seen. He looks like he is running in slow motion when he tries to turn around after catching a ball.

[dockeryfan]

Perfect offseason:

Sign Stallworth, JT, and draft Brian Leonard. I'm sorry, but Tapeh is the slowest 4.6 I've ever seen. He looks like he is running in slow motion when he tries to turn around after catching a ball.
Tapeh shouldn't have even been an option on that 3-1 inside the 5.

[jrockster21]

Perfect offseason:

Sign Stallworth, JT, and draft Brian Leonard. I'm sorry, but Tapeh is the slowest 4.6 I've ever seen. He looks like he is running in slow motion when he tries to turn around after catching a ball.

That would be the perfect offseason - for the Eagles' opponents. Especially those with any kind of power running attack.

[dockeryfan]

That would be the perfect offseason - for the Eagles' opponents. Especially those with any kind of power running attack.
I think you are wrong about Jaqua. He's developed into a very good player.

[jrockster21]

I think you are wrong about Jaqua. He's developed into a very good player.

He is a great player, and a great pass rusher. He's also 250 pounds and physically limited against the run.

[OWUeagleMD]

Just debating, not riled. Stallworth "reminding" you of Moss is different than comparing the two. Stallworth is incomparable to Moss.



Incomparable?

Their numbers this season are easily comparable. Moss is better, I'd rather have Moss, you should be happy to have Moss, everyone acknowledges that Moss is better, but they are certainly comparable.

[Santana Clause]

Who cares about LJ Smith, a good tight end is the easiest thing in the NFL to draft these days. I hope the Eagles don't resign Stallworth, they'll then have the worst receiving core in the league.

[OWUeagleMD]

Who cares about LJ Smith, a good tight end is the easiest thing in the NFL to draft these days. I hope the Eagles don't resign Stallworth, they'll then have the worst receiving core in the league.

I'm so used to being branded with that label that it doesn't even remotely affect me anymore. I want Stallworth back, but even if he isn't we'll still have a productive offense. Stallworth and Brown are great, but Brown/Baskett would still be better than Thrash/Pinkston or C. Johnson/Torrance Small.

[jrockster21]

Incomparable?

Their numbers this season are easily comparable. Moss is better, I'd rather have Moss, you should be happy to have Moss, everyone acknowledges that Moss is better, but they are certainly comparable.


In my opinion Santana Moss is incomparable to Donte' Stallworth, yes.

[pointyfootball]

Who cares about LJ Smith, a good tight end is the easiest thing in the NFL to draft these days. I hope the Eagles don't resign Stallworth, they'll then have the worst receiving core in the league.

Maybe not worst:

Eagles #2-5 receivers:

99 catches / 1696 yards / 13 TDs

Redskins #1-#4 receivers:

122 catches / 1657 yds / 10 TDs

[Who Del]

Eagles would never cut Tra Thomas. They would get trade him before cutting him. He's a good player at a franchise position. He could be a one or two year stop gap (maybe more) for a team in need of someone. If they can get a fourth round pick for Artis Hicks they can at least get a two or three for Tra.

Dhani and McDougle can go to hell.

[pointyfootball]

Dhani and McDougle can go to hell.

Preach the good news brother!

If I never have to see a air-banjo after a tackle-for-6yard-gain again, it will be too soon.

Damn I hate talking offseason already.

[OWUeagleMD]

I'd be pretty furious if either Dhani or McDougle were on the team next season.

It will be frsutrating though when we cut Jones and then don't sign anyone to replace him. Outside linebacker is the deepest position in free agency and I have little doubt that Chris Gocong will be handed the starting spot. Perhaps they'll bring in a Shawn-Barberish security blanket, but they certainly won't bring in anyone truly formidable.

[jrockster21]

Eagles would never cut Tra Thomas. They would get trade him before cutting him. He's a good player at a franchise position. He could be a one or two year stop gap (maybe more) for a team in need of someone. If they can get a fourth round pick for Artis Hicks they can at least get a two or three for Tra.

You really think a 33 year old with back issues will fetch a 2nd or 3rd round pick?? He's a good tackle, but I don't think anyone would be willing to give up that much when there's no guarantee he's going to play all 16...:2cents:

Dhani and McDougle can go to hell.

:laugh: I kind of like them on your team! :D :laugh:

[Who Del]

Someone would be desperate enough somewhere. People make lopsided trades all the time (see: Lloyd for a 4th and a 5th) ;)

[jrockster21]

Someone would be desperate enough somewhere. People make lopsided trades all the time (see: Lloyd for a 4th and a 5th) ;)

That's a 3rd and a 4th, thank you very much!! :doh:

[Who Del]

:laugh:

But seriously he could be a one or two year stop gap for someone. I definitely would not want to cut him. They could get some kind of pick for him.

[Who Del]

Also, go read Dave Spadaro's latest drivel on PE.com. It could be a few days back now. But he is already starting the PR machine to set us up for them not signing Stallworth.

The other thing he was on WIP the other day and told Eagle fans to "move on" from the game and accept they had a good season.

Dave,

Go **** yourself.

[jrockster21]

:laugh:

But seriously he could be a one or two year stop gap for someone. I definitely would not want to cut him. They could get some kind of pick for him.

Yeah...you're probably right. I would think more of a 5th or 6th, but then again you never know. Also, there might be different cap ramifications for trading him or cutting him, which may also come into consideration.

[Who Del]

Very true. Eagles love their cap space!!!

[OWUeagleMD]

Also, go read Dave Spadaro's latest drivel on PE.com. It could be a few days back now. But he is already starting the PR machine to set us up for them not signing Stallworth.

The other thing he was on WIP the other day and told Eagle fans to "move on" from the game and accept they had a good season.

Dave,

Go **** yourself.

I don't know how that guy lives with himself. His journalism professors at Temple should be ashamed of what they created.

[AKM311]

Moss adjusts to the ball better than just about anyone in the game. That doesn't mean a guy who doesn't do that isn't a comparable player in any sense.

Stats wise he may be comparable, please tell me that you honestly agree that defenses scare away from Stallworth the way the scare away from Moss. Moss's impact goes further than stats. His impact affects the entire offense and the opponents game plan.

[Henry]

Stats wise he may be comparable, please tell me that you honestly agree that defenses scare away from Stallworth the way the scare away from Moss. Moss's impact goes further than stats. His impact affects the entire offense and the opponents game plan.

Please tell me you've read this entire thread. :doh:

No. Stallworth has never had a 1500 yard season. He doesn't command the respect that Moss does. He hasn't earned it.

What I've seen from Stallworth this season reminds me of what Moss brings to the table for us. I think he could potentially be a Moss-type player for the Eagles, though he isn't right now. He's not as good as Moss. Moss is better than he. Moss and he are not the same. Were I to pick one, I'd pick Moss. I would not pick Stallworth. Moss>Stallworth. Moss is faster. Moss is smarter. Moss is better with children. Moss drives a cooler car. Moss is better at long division.

I regret ever suggesting that Stallworth and Moss play similar games, positions, sports or breathe the same air. I will not do so in the future.

Viva Moss.

That is all.

[AKM311]

Please tell me you've read this entire thread. :doh:

No. Stallworth has never had a 1500 yard season. He doesn't command the respect that Moss does. He hasn't earned it.

What I've seen from Stallworth this season reminds me of what Moss brings to the table for us. I think he could potentially be a Moss-type player for the Eagles, though he isn't right now. He's not as good as Moss. Moss is better than he. Moss and he are not the same. Were I to pick one, I'd pick Moss. I would not pick Stallworth. Moss>Stallworth. Moss is faster. Moss is smarter. Moss is better with children. Moss drives a cooler car. Moss is better at long division.

I regret ever suggesting that Stallworth and Moss play similar games, positions, sports or breathe the same air. I will not do so in the future.

Viva Moss.

That is all.

I actually did not read the entire thread when I responded to you, but now I understand the irritation with my response. Sorry for the late response. But I see what you are saying. Maybe do not agree fully, but I see what what your saying about Stallworth.

[Henry]

I actually did not read the entire thread when I responded to you, but now I understand the irritation with my response. Sorry for the late response. But I see what you are saying. Maybe do not agree fully, but I see what what your saying about Stallworth.

No worries. Just having a little fun. :)

[AKM311]

No worries. Just having a little fun. :)

Oh just to irritate you more, I still disagree with you. I do not see Stallworth every comparing to Moss by doing the same things Moss does for the Skins.

You say he can do the same for the Eagles as Moss does for the Skins. The reason why I can't agree, because Stallworth cannot make the catches, and the impact Moss does. Moss can catch 2 yard passes take it to the house, catch 30 yard passes take it to the house, but he can also catch a 3 yard pass, fight for 7 more yards for a TD. He is an all around WR, where I personally do not believe Stallworth is.

Now I am having fun with you or just plain pissing you off! :D

[Henry]

Oh just to irritate you more, I still disagree with you. I do not see Stallworth every comparing to Moss by doing the same things Moss does for the Skins.

You say he can do the same for the Eagles as Moss does for the Skins. The reason why I can't agree, because Stallworth cannot make the catches, and the impact Moss does. Moss can catch 2 yard passes take it to the house, catch 30 yard passes take it to the house, but he can also catch a 3 yard pass, fight for 7 more yards for a TD. He is an all around WR, where I personally do not believe Stallworth is.

Now I am having fun with you or just plain pissing you off! :D

I am so done with this thread. :)

[jrockster21]

Moss is better at long division.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

End of debate!! :laugh:

[jrockster21]

I am so done with this thread. :)

Awwww man! We were just getting started!! :(




:laugh:

[Westbrook36]

If Moss has an off-Moss year like he has had 5 of his 7 seasons, again in 2007, will everyone still hold up 2005 as to what Moss is? I said from the beginning, and got ripped, that 2005 was the aberration and that he put up such marvelous numbers because he was the only receiving option, save Cooley.

I guess we'll see. I'm predicting another 800 yard 6 td year for Moss in 2007. Then, the excuse will be "it was Campbells first full year!!!"

[jrockster21]

If Moss has an off-Moss year like he has had 5 of his 7 seasons, again in 2007, will everyone still hold up 2005 as to what Moss is? I said from the beginning, and got ripped, that 2005 was the aberration and that he put up such marvelous numbers because he was the only receiving option, save Cooley.

I guess we'll see. I'm predicting another 800 yard 6 td year for Moss in 2007. Then, the excuse will be "it was Campbells first full year!!!"


I don't know how you can attribute his good season to lack of supporting cast out of one side of your mouth, and then out the other side not mention the lack of supporting cast hurt his stats. :doh: :rolleyes:

[Westbrook36]

He did a great job, jrock. No one can take 2005 away from him. Who cares why it happened, it did happen, period. That being said, it overinflated the true measure of who Santana Moss is to legions of Skins fans like yourself. He is not the best WR in the game; he is not one of the top 5 in the game. He is ****ing great; but he is not the very elite. I'm sorry. I have his entire inconsistant career to back me up.

In 2007, he'll have another off year and it will be explained away to a young QB while we keep quoting his 2005 stats.

[Henry]

He did a great job, jrock. No one can take 2005 away from him. Who cares why it happened, it did happen, period. That being said, it overinflated the true measure of who Santana Moss is to legions of Skins fans like yourself. He is not the best WR in the game; he is not one of the top 5 in the game. He is ****ing great; but he is not the very elite. I'm sorry. I have his entire inconsistant career to back me up..

Kinda like Westbrook's performance in 2006, eh? ;)

[jrockster21]

He did a great job, jrock. No one can take 2005 away from him. Who cares why it happened, it did happen, period. That being said, it overinflated the true measure of who Santana Moss is to legions of Skins fans like yourself. He is not the best WR in the game; he is not one of the top 5 in the game. He is ****ing great; but he is not the very elite. I'm sorry. I have his entire inconsistant career to back me up.

In 2007, he'll have another off year and it will be explained away to a young QB while we keep quoting his 2005 stats.

:blahblah: Westbrook36: Least likely to become an NFL talent evaluator.

Seriously though, you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Westbrook36]

Kinda like Westbrook's performance in 2006, eh? ;)

I actually agree with this; surprisingly, I know. I want to see Westy do it again, for sure. If he stumbles and doesn't rush for a grand again and doesn't have his 60 catches for 800-1000 yards with 10 tds, I won't say "But look back to 2006!"

In the NFL, you are what you are. Is anyone ready to say Randy Moss is one of the top 3 WRs in the game because he scored 71 tds in his first 5 years(just a guess, btw)? What has he done the last two years?

[jrockster21]

I actually agree with this; surprisingly, I know. I want to see Westy do it again, for sure. If he stumbles and doesn't rush for a grand again and doesn't have his 60 catches for 800-1000 yards with 10 tds, I won't say "But look back to 2006!"

But let me guess...you fully expect Westbrook to repeat his stats again in 2007. :rolleyes:

In 2001 and 2002, Santana's first two years in the league, he was playing behind Toeverneus and Chrebet - not to mention it takes many WRs a couple years to break into the league. In his 3rd year, once Coles left for DC, he became the #2 behind Chrebet. Chrebet got injured, so Moss was thrust into the #1 spot, and responded with a great season; 1100 yards and 10 TDs. In 2004, Moss was hampered by a hamstring injury, and was the deep threat WR on a team with a noodle-arm QB.

2005 Santana comes in as the featured WR, and has a phenomenal year.

2006, he is again hampered by injury, but still manages to make several highlight catches, and completely dominate the Jacksonville game. He is also playing with a QB with an injured throwing shoulder for the first half of the season (hmmm...that didn't hamper anything...:doh: ), an injured star runningback, and a new offensive system.

If you look at the circumstances, Moss has stepped up when given the chance, and yes, is an elite WR in this league. To say anything else is to display complete and total ignorance of his performances. I highly doubt you were in the stands at FedEx, watching him consistently have 3 to 4 steps on his man deep, and watch Brunell scramble and throw a 2-yard dumpoff or out of bounds. But if you had been, maybe you'd understand more. :rolleyes:

In the NFL, you are what you are. Is anyone ready to say Randy Moss is one of the top 3 WRs in the game because he scored 71 tds in his first 5 years(just a guess, btw)? What has he done the last two years?

Apples and Oranges. Moss is going to play in his 10th season, much longer than average for a WR. He has been injured the past two years, and had a 1000 yard season in 2005 with 8 TDs. He's no longer top 5, but I'm sure most teams would take him on their rosters...

[Westbrook36]

I fully expect Westbrook to duplicate or better his 2006 numbers in 2007. Reason: He should get the ball even more now that he has demonstrated his durability over a full year.

jrock, you have an excuse for every year that Moss didn't perform like he did in 2005. Why not look at it objectively, like the rest of the NFL world not wearing Burgandy and Gold glasses and realize 2005 was the aberration; not the other 5 years he didn't peform like an elite receiver.

[OWUeagleMD]

jrock, look at how complicated you are making this discussion. Year by year breakdowns complete with every extenuating circumstance imagineable, simply to address the statement that Santana Moss had a career year in 2005.

Moss is great, no one in this thread has said otherwise. I think people are making pretty reasonable claims: 2005 was an example of what Moss can do when circumstances permit, much like 2006 for Westbrook.

Stallworth and Moss have similar skill sets, though Moss has experienced far greater success than Stallworth at this point in their careers. If Westbrook slips back into the 10 carries a game for 800 rushing yards area next season, it would be fair to look at 2006 as the exception to the rule. These are modest statements, which, I think, are easily defended.

[jrockster21]

I fully expect Westbrook to duplicate or better his 2006 numbers in 2007. Reason: I'm a gigantic homer.

Fixed it for ya. 2006 was an aberration for Westbrook; I have his entire inconsistent career to back me up. Westbrook is ****ing great, but he's not elite.

To borrow your favorite phrase: see how easy that is??

jrock, you have an excuse for every year that Moss didn't perform like he did in 2005. Why not look at it objectively, like the rest of the NFL world not wearing Burgandy and Gold glasses and realize 2005 was the aberration; not the other 5 years he didn't peform like an elite receiver.

They aren't excuses...they're reasons. Whether or not you can look at them objectively is up to you. Obviously 2005 was an aberration. He will most likely never match that yardage total again; its phenomenally high, and a Redskins record. Redskins have had some outstanding receivers, and none ever reached that mark. Its hard to do. However you look at it, 2005 was the aberration.

I fully expect Moss to get somewhere inbetween 2005 and 2003, maybe 1200 yards and 9-10 TDs in 2007.

jrock, look at how complicated you are making this discussion. Year by year breakdowns complete with every extenuating circumstance imagineable, simply to address the statement that Santana Moss had a career year in 2005.

No, to address Westy's statement that he's not an elite receiver. He covers it up by saying he's "****ing great," but his true opinion shows through with statements like "his entire inconsistent career." I'm simply providing reasons for why he may have had off years.

Moss is great, no one in this thread has said otherwise. I think people are making pretty reasonable claims: 2005 was an example of what Moss can do when circumstances permit, much like 2006 for Westbrook.

Exactly. 2005 is the benchmark of Moss' talent. So 12-1300 yards and 10 TDs is a perfectly reasonable expectation. Westy seems convinced he's going to have another 800 yard, 6 TD year, and I disagree.

Stallworth and Moss have similar skill sets, though Moss has experienced far greater success than Stallworth at this point in their careers. If Westbrook slips back into the 10 carries a game for 800 rushing yards area next season, it would be fair to look at 2006 as the exception to the rule. These are modest statements, which, I think, are easily defended.

If by similar skill sets you mean they are both blazing fast, then yes. But Moss is much more than speed, which is what I'm trying to convey. Shoot, Patrick Johnson and Antonio Brown can probablly hang with both of them in a footrace; are they comparable receivers?? :whoknows:

[OWUeagleMD]

Fixed it for ya. 2006 was an aberration for Westbrook; I have his entire inconsistent career to back me up. Westbrook is ****ing great, but he's not elite.

To borrow your favorite phrase: see how easy that is??



They aren't excuses...they're reasons. Whether or not you can look at them objectively is up to you. Obviously 2005 was an aberration. He will most likely never match that yardage total again; its phenomenally high, and a Redskins record. Redskins have had some outstanding receivers, and none ever reached that mark. Its hard to do. However you look at it, 2005 was the aberration.

I fully expect Moss to get somewhere inbetween 2005 and 2003, maybe 1200 yards and 9-10 TDs in 2007.



No, to address Westy's statement that he's not an elite receiver. He covers it up by saying he's "****ing great," but his true opinion shows through with statements like "his entire inconsistent career." I'm simply providing reasons for why he may have had off years.



Exactly. 2005 is the benchmark of Moss' talent. So 12-1300 yards and 10 TDs is a perfectly reasonable expectation. Westy seems convinced he's going to have another 800 yard, 6 TD year, and I disagree.



If by similar skill sets you mean they are both blazing fast, then yes. But Moss is much more than speed, which is what I'm trying to convey. Shoot, Patrick Johnson and Antonio Brown can probablly hang with both of them in a footrace; are they comparable receivers?? :whoknows:

Did Patrick Johnson and Antonio Brown put up nearly identical numbers to Moss/Stallworth in the most recent NFL regular season? Both Moss and Stallworth are blazing fast guys who are able to break a tackle and take any ball 70 yards for a touchdown. Unlike other guys who are "big play threats," both Stallworth and Moss actually deliver on a consistent basis.

It's possible for Moss to be a better player and for them to be comparable at the same time. Think Matt Hasslebeck and Brett Favre.

[jrockster21]

Did Patrick Johnson and Antonio Brown put up nearly identical numbers to Moss/Stallworth in the most recent NFL regular season? Both Moss and Stallworth are blazing fast guys who are able to break a tackle and take any ball 70 yards for a touchdown. Unlike other guys who are "big play threats," both Stallworth and Moss actually deliver on a consistent basis.

It's possible for Moss to be a better player and for them to be comparable at the same time. Think Matt Hasslebeck and Brett Favre.

I guess we're just using two different connotations of "comparable." I can see you're point...

[dockeryfan]

Haw can you not compare Moss vs Stallworth?
Watch them play, when they are on the field for their respective teams, the defense has to adjust to their talent.

Am I missing something?

[jrockster21]

Haw can you not compare Moss vs Stallworth?
Watch them play, when they are on the field for their respective teams, the defense has to adjust to their talent.

Am I missing something?


Moss >>> Stallworth. In my opinion, that means you cannot compare the two. However, they are similar in ceratin aspects of their games.

I just don't see how you can compare a guy who's never hit 1000 yards receiving and has never matched his rookie season TD total of 8 to a guy who's had 1100 yard/10TD and 1500 yard/9TD seasons.

This past season, yes, they had similar numbers, but I still don't believe they are comparable.

[dockeryfan]

I just don't see how you can compare a guy who's never hit 1000 yards receiving and has never matched his rookie season TD total of 8 to a guy who's had 1100 yard/10TD and 1500 yard/9TD seasons.

This past season, yes, they had similar numbers, but I still don't believe they are comparable.
Utter BS.
You are only as good as your last year, not your best year ever.

Last year their numbers could be compared. SOme would argue that Stallworth was a greater threat on the field in 2006.

You want to talk about injury? Maybe you have a point. But to say they could not be compared after a full season of production last year...
well that's just stubborn.

[OWUeagleMD]

Brian Westbrook is currently a superior RB to Reggie Bush. I would say they are very similar players.

[jrockster21]

Utter BS.
You are only as good as your last year, not your best year ever.

Last year their numbers could be compared. SOme would argue that Stallworth was a greater threat on the field in 2006.


So by that logic, both Stallworth and Moss are much better than Jerry Rice, because his last season was a 429 yard, 3 TD season. :rolleyes:

I think its safe to use recent success when comparing two young players.

[TaylorPickSix]

Honestly, Stallworth looks a LOT like Santana Moss to me. A guy who at any time could take any pass and turn it into a game-changing TD. A guy who keeps defensive coordinators up at night.

I think you have to find a way to keep him, especially considering how far under the cap you are and how few players you give big contracts to.
Agreed. Both are big play threats and the Eagles would be wise to keep him.

[dockeryfan]

So by that logic, both Stallworth and Moss are much better than Jerry Rice, because his last season was a 429 yard, 3 TD season. :rolleyes:

I think its safe to use recent success when comparing two young players.
Both players are still in their prime. Bringing up Rice is simply foolish.

They're both game changers.

I honestly don't know why you have a burr in your saddle over this.

[jrockster21]

Both players are still in their prime. Bringing up Rice is simply foolish.

They're both game changers.

I honestly don't know why you have a burr in your saddle over this.


You said you're only as good as your last year, which is even more foolish.

Moss >>>> Stallworth. Moss is not only a game changer, he can take over a game. He's had 4 multiple TD games in the past two seasons, getting 3 twice and basically carrying the Skins to victory. Stallworth has had one multiple TD game in his entire career.

Its mind-boggling to me that Skins fans can so effortlessly compare the two of them after one okay season from Stallworth. If he ever even SNIFFS Moss's career best then maybe we can talk. :rolleyes:

[jrockster21]

To put the above in context (multiple TD games), in the past two seasons, Chad Johnson has had 3, Steve Smith has had 3, Marvin Harrison has had 7, Larry Fitzgerald has had 0, Anquan Boldin has had 0, Owens has had 3 (5 if you count the past 32 games, b/c last year was only half a season).

[elkabong82]

IMO, Stallworth is a play maker, and should get resigned by the Eagles. The Eagles have talented players on their team, and I'm sure the players wouldn't mind seeing one of theirs earn their payday. Besides, the Eagles FO has to spend money eventually, right? That being said, I think they will continue to take the cheap route, and won't resing Stallworth. From their viewpoint, not spending a lot has gotten them recent success, w/ the exception of '05, and they will probably stick w/ that. Too bad though, b/c Stallworth is young, and despite his injury problems, when he is in the game, he performs well and is a good deep threat.

[OWUeagleMD]

To put the above in context (multiple TD games), in the past two seasons, Chad Johnson has had 3, Steve Smith has had 3, Marvin Harrison has had 7, Larry Fitzgerald has had 0, Anquan Boldin has had 0, Owens has had 3 (5 if you count the past 32 games, b/c last year was only half a season).

I could post 6 pages of reasons Brian Westbrook is better than Reggie Bush, or Julius Peppers is better than Dwight Freeney, or Johnathan Ogden is better than Chris Samuels, or Lito Sheppard is better than Quentin Jammer, or any other number of combinations. Players are routinely compared to one another while those conducting the comparison still understand that one is better than another. It means only that both players excel in the NFL due to a similar combination of abilities.

Throw in the fact that in the most recent season played, the two players currently being compared to one another put up carbon copy stat lines, and perhaps what should boggle your mind is not that other Skins fans acceptthe comparison, but instead why you are unable to accept it.

I mean seriously, are you really quoting which player had more multiple touchdown games? This was all started because Henry said he saw Stallworth as a similar commodity for the Eagles as Moss was for the Skins. Moss didn't come to the Skins as a 1500 yard receiver, and Stallworth didn't come to the Eagles that way either. Both were acquired for their explosive skill set and because the coaches who acquired them believed that their best football could be realized in a new system.

Their similar. It's OK to say it, everyone on the planet would still rather have Moss if given the option.

[OWUeagleMD]

IMO, Stallworth is a play maker, and should get resigned by the Eagles. The Eagles have talented players on their team, and I'm sure the players wouldn't mind seeing one of theirs earn their payday. Besides, the Eagles FO has to spend money eventually, right? That being said, I think they will continue to take the cheap route, and won't resing Stallworth. From their viewpoint, not spending a lot has gotten them recent success, w/ the exception of '05, and they will probably stick w/ that. Too bad though, b/c Stallworth is young, and despite his injury problems, when he is in the game, he performs well and is a good deep threat.

I think guys might have noticed that Reggie Brown, Mike Patterson, Trent Cole, Todd Heremans, Shawn Andrews and Jamal Jackson all got huge paydays between the last free agency period and right now.

The Eagles spend plenty of money. They just don't do it on the open market when bidding wars create unreasonable markets for certain players' values.

[jrockster21]

Their similar. It's OK to say it, everyone on the planet would still rather have Moss if given the option.

Eh, I'm pretty sure I'm arguing syntax, so I'm going to stop. I've posted my argument, and I'm through with this thread. Compare whoever you want to whoever else you want, I don't give a ****. :)

[OWUeagleMD]

Eh, I'm pretty sure I'm arguing syntax, so I'm going to stop. I've posted my argument, and I'm through with this thread. Compare whoever you want to whoever else you want, I don't give a ****. :)

It sometimes feels that all arguments eventually boil down to syntax.

[ArmchairRedskin]

It sometimes feels that all arguments eventually boil down to syntax.



I disagree. All of them boil down to semantics.

[bubba9497]

I disagree. All of them boil down to spelling














okay, just kidding :)

[Jethrodsp]

Santana Moss is a better athlete and reciever than Stallworth.

The only thing they have in common is speed. Moss has better short area quickness and better body control. Matter of fact, Stallworth may be faster than Moss in a straight line but it is Santana's quickness that sets him apart. He might be the quickest player in the league (maybe Steve Smith).

Although you can compare them, I guess, you have to acknowledge that Moss is a superior athlete.

[Jethrodsp]

More comparable to Dante Stallworth in terms of ability than Santana Moss would be Eddie Kennison. Straight speed, no real elusiveness or elite short-area quickness.

[jrockster21]

Santana Moss is a better athlete and reciever than Stallworth.

The only thing they have in common is speed. Moss has better short area quickness and better body control. Matter of fact, Stallworth may be faster than Moss in a straight line but it is Santana's quickness that sets him apart. He might be the quickest player in the league (maybe Steve Smith).

Although you can compare them, I guess, you have to acknowledge that Moss is a superior athlete.

More comparable to Dante Stallworth in terms of ability than Santana Moss would be Eddie Kennison. Straight speed, no real elusiveness or elite short-area quickness.


:notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy :notworthy

[Pocono]

More comparable to Dante Stallworth in terms of ability than Santana Moss would be Eddie Kennison. Straight speed, no real elusiveness or elite short-area quickness.

Who has more receiving yds over the last 5 or 6 years? Kennison or Moss?

[jrockster21]

Who has more receiving yds over the last 5 or 6 years? Kennison or Moss?

Who was in the number 5, 2, 1 and 1 offense in terms of yards from 2002-2005, Kennison or Moss?

[Jethrodsp]

Who has more receiving yds over the last 5 or 6 years? Kennison or Moss?

Are you trying to insinuate that Eddie Kennison is a more dangerous reciever than Santana Moss?

Im sure Moss could have blown Kennison's numbers out of the water in KC's offense.

[bubba9497]

Who has more receiving yds over the last 5 or 6 years? Kennison or Moss?


Kennison

2001 Kansas City Chiefs 13 7 31 491 15.8 65 1 7 4 17
2002 Kansas City Chiefs 16 14 53 906 17.1 64 2 16 3 44
2003 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 56 853 15.2 51 5 11 3 43
2004 Kansas City Chiefs 14 14 62 1086 17.5 70 8 18 6 47
2005 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 68 1102 16.2 55 5 17 5 47
2006 Kansas City Chiefs 16 16 53 860 16.2 51 5 15 2 41



Moss

2002 New York Jets 15 3 30 433 14.4 47 4 8 1 20
2003 New York Jets 16 12 74 1105 14.9 65 10 17 5 49
2004 New York Jets 15 14 45 838 18.6 69 5 13 6 35
2005 Washington Redskins 16 16 84 1483 17.7 78 9 24 10 60
2006 Washington Redskins 14 14 55 790 14.4 68 6 11 4 36



02 coming off knee surgery in his rookie season

04 Pennington injuried

06 QB Change, and hamstring injury

[elkabong82]

If Moss has an off-Moss year like he has had 5 of his 7 seasons, again in 2007, will everyone still hold up 2005 as to what Moss is? I said from the beginning, and got ripped, that 2005 was the aberration and that he put up such marvelous numbers because he was the only receiving option, save Cooley.

I guess we'll see. I'm predicting another 800 yard 6 td year for Moss in 2007. Then, the excuse will be "it was Campbells first full year!!!"

Sorry, but anybody who has actually watched Santana play knows this is BS. Santana put up better numbers at the begining of '05, not the end. this is because Patten was healthy, and Moss didn't see a lot of double and even triple teaming. As a Skins fan, I actually watch the games, and i will tell you Moss is one of the top ten wide receivers in this league. That is not a homeristic statement either, cuz I'm the kind of guy who will admit McNabb is top ten QB in the league, and that Brian Dawkins is the best safety in the league, Ed Reed is the only close second, and even he isn't too close.

[Pocono]

Are you trying to insinuate that Eddie Kennison is a more dangerous reciever than Santana Moss?

Im sure Moss could have blown Kennison's numbers out of the water in KC's offense.

No...I'm just wondering what you are trying to insinuate by saying Stallworth is more like Kennison than he is like Moss when they have similar numbers?

Are you so sure about Moss doing so well in the KC system because of how his numbers rose so much when Saunders took over in Washington??? You do know he was the OC with the Chiefs before he came east.....don't you?

[Jethrodsp]

No...I'm just wondering what you are trying to insinuate by saying Stallworth is more like Kennison than he is like Moss when they have similar numbers?

Are you so sure about Moss doing so well in the KC system because of how his numbers rose so much when Saunders took over in Washington??? You do know he was the OC with the Chiefs before he came east.....don't you?

I was comparing Stallworth to Kennison on physical ability, not numbers.

And Santana would have put up similar numbers to his 05 marks had he not been fighting a lingering hammy all year. Add to that, Trent Green was at his peak in KC throwing the ball and yeah, Im pretty confident Santana could have put up some pretty impressive numbers there. Year two with Saunders is coming, Im willing to give it a couple of seasons to get fully on track...you?

[bulldog]

the critics seem to ignore that Moss had a 1,100 yard, 10 TD season in 2003 for the Jets before he came to Washington. 2005 was not the only season he put up the numbers.

what is confusing is how some fans mistake the number of catches alone for a receiver's worth.

Coles catches more balls than Moss. But he averages 3 or 4 yards per catch LESS.

Coles caught 90 balls here in 2004 but averaged only 10 yards a catch. Tight ends like Gonzalez and Gates do better than that.

[OWUeagleMD]

I disagree. All of them boil down to semantics.

You know, it just occured to me, 4 hours after the fact, that I hadn't written the word semantics as I had intended. of course, I thought I had written symantics, which would have been far less embarassing.

[OWUeagleMD]

Santana Moss- 5'10, 190
Donte Stallworth- 6'0, 196

Santana Moss- 4.3 40, 42 inch vertical
Donte Stallworth- 4.26 40, 40 inch vertical

Most recent season: Moss- 14 games, 55 catches, 790 yards, 6 TDs
Stallworth- 12 games, 38 catches, 725 yards, 5 TDs

Best Season- Moss- 16 games, 84 catches, 1483 yards, 9 TDs
Stallworth- 16 games, 70 catches, 945 yards, 8 TDs

Both players returned punts in college and at some points in their professional careers. Both players were acquired by their current teams with the belief that they would excel in a new system. Both systems utilize short plays to their wide receivers, but both players have made their biggest impact as deep-ball receivers, the style of play that brought them to their current status to begin with.

Both guys were mid first-round picks, and were touted by scouts as having very similar skill sets.

I don't understand the problem with admitting that they are similar players. As has been said by every person with a heart beat, SANTANA MOSS IS A SUPERIOR PLAYER.

[Jethrodsp]

SANTANA MOSS IS A SUPERIOR PLAYER.

...and athlete.

Short area quickness and body control are what separate good athletes from great athletes. Santana Moss is superior to Stallworth in both of these aspects and that is what makes him a better reciever.

Thats my point.

[OWUeagleMD]

...and athlete.

Short area quickness and body control are what separate good athletes from great athletes. Santana Moss is superior to Stallworth in both of these aspects and that is what makes him a better reciever.

Thats my point.

OK. So you are describing precisely the thing that makes Moss a better athlete. Does that make them dissimilar players? Do they not succeed as NFL receivers for the same reasons because of the particular difference you've highlighted? Was their production this season not surprisingly similar because of the particular difference you're focusing on? Do all the other similarities mentioned in this thread not apply because of the single difference you've championed?

No one is saying they are clones. This began as the most modest claim in the world-- Stallworth has the capabilities to bring to the Eagles what Moss brings to the Redskins-- and has become a debate because people are sensitive about their favorite players.

Not to mention, punt returning is probably the area for a receiver where short area quickness is most neccesary. Stallworth was an accomplished punt returner coming out of college, as was Moss.

[jrockster21]

No...I'm just wondering what you are trying to insinuate by saying Stallworth is more like Kennison than he is like Moss when they have similar numbers?

Are you so sure about Moss doing so well in the KC system because of how his numbers rose so much when Saunders took over in Washington??? You do know he was the OC with the Chiefs before he came east.....don't you?


:doh: Let's look at Saunders' first year in KC, shall we?

16th overall in points, 4th overall in total offense. And that was with Priest Holmes getting 1555 rushing yards. No WR got more than 511 yards in Saunders' first year at KC - and that was Snoop Minnis. It takes time to learn a new system.

In 2002, the leading receiver had 906 yards. That's 177% increase. 2003, 853 yards; a 167% increase. In 2004, the leading receiver had 1086 yards - a 213% increase. In 2005, the leading receiver had 1102 yards; a 216% increase. I think its safe to say we're going to see some improvements on offense, especially with the WRs.

[jrockster21]

OK. So you are describing precisely the thing that makes Moss a better athlete. Does that make them dissimilar players? Do they not succeed as NFL receivers for the same reasons because of the particular difference you've highlighted? Was their production this season not surprisingly similar because of the particular difference you're focusing on? Do all the other similarities mentioned in this thread not apply because of the single difference you've championed?

No one is saying they are clones. This began as the most modest claim in the world-- Stallworth has the capabilities to bring to the Eagles what Moss brings to the Redskins-- and has become a debate because people are sensitive about their favorite players.

Not to mention, punt returning is probably the area for a receiver where short area quickness is most neccesary. Stallworth was an accomplished punt returner coming out of college, as was Moss.


I don't think he does, as illustrated by my multiple TD games stat. Moss has the ability to absolutely take over a game; I don't think Stallworth has that yet.

[Jethrodsp]

No one is saying they are clones. This began as the most modest claim in the world-- Stallworth has the capabilities to bring to the Eagles what Moss brings to the Redskins-- and has become a debate because people are sensitive about their favorite players.



My position is that Stallworth cannot bring to the Eagles what Moss brings to the Skins because Moss is superior physically, an equally modest claim.

I think Dante can be a very good NFL reciever, along the lines of what Eddie Kennison has done out in KC because they compare more favorably physically.

Moss has the ability to be much better because of the traits that I have "championed" which make them dissimilar players.

Just my :2cents: , I guess you see it differently...you are welcome to your opinion.

[THEArmchairQB]

shouldn't WB rename this thread the stallworth vs. moss debate?


oh, one other thing


moss>stallworth



that is all

[The-Rock]

Moss is fast, Stallworth is fast.

Moss is very agile, Stallworth is agile im sure, to what extent I am not sure.

Moss has stayed a bit healthier in his career and and has had bigger seasons overall.


Moss > Stallworth

Both are good players and great additions to any team.

[jrockster21]

You know, it just occured to me, 4 hours after the fact, that I hadn't written the word semantics as I had intended. of course, I thought I had written symantics, which would have been far less embarassing.

Am I missing a joke? Semantics (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics) is the correct spelling....:whoknows:

However you misspelled occurred and embarrassing....;)

[OWUeagleMD]

Am I missing a joke? Semantics (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/semantics) is the correct spelling....:whoknows:

However you misspelled occurred and embarrassing....;)

Yes, semantics is the correct spelling. I thought I had incorrectly spelled it "symantics."

[OWUeagleMD]

My position is that Stallworth cannot bring to the Eagles what Moss brings to the Skins because Moss is superior physically, an equally modest claim.

I think Dante can be a very good NFL reciever, along the lines of what Eddie Kennison has done out in KC because they compare more favorably physically.

Moss has the ability to be much better because of the traits that I have "championed" which make them dissimilar players.

Just my :2cents: , I guess you see it differently...you are welcome to your opinion.

Eddie Kennison was a gymnast through college. I would imagine his body control is better than nearly any receiver in the league. We are speaking in ambiguities at this point.

[Westbrook36]

I haven't checked this thread in awhile. I don't have time to read the last few pages.

Did we all agree that Stallworth is comprable to Moss? ;)

[drowland]

IMO, I don't think losing Stallworth would be that big a deal for Philly. Yeah, he's good and he helps stretch the field but I don't think he's worth that much cash. I think they'd be better off finding a brusier at RB to pair with Westbrook. If the Ravens release Jamal Lewis, Philly should jump all over him. WRs are becoming overvalued in this league (look at the Redskins). I think the Patroits are on to something with what they're doing at the position.

[OWUeagleMD]

IMO, I don't think losing Stallworth would be that big a deal for Philly. Yeah, he's good and he helps stretch the field but I don't think he's worth that much cash. I think they'd be better off finding a brusier at RB to pair with Westbrook. If the Ravens release Jamal Lewis, Philly should jump all over him. WRs are becoming overvalued in this league (look at the Redskins). I think the Patroits are on to something with what they're doing at the position.

I hope you're right, because I see about a 5% chance that he is playing in Philly next year.

I have no interest in a "Big RB." I'd like the Eagles to use a mid-round pick on a RB this year, but I have little interest in the size of that RB. If he is a smart, versatile RB, I'm in. Size is inconsequential to the success of a RB.

[Who Del]

I know this:

If the Eagles let go of Stallworth it will be the exact same thing as the Skins trading for Duckett and not signing him.

[OWUeagleMD]

I know this:

If the Eagles let go of Stallworth it will be the exact same thing as the Skins trading for Duckett and not signing him.

Ehh, Stallworth was a big part of an enjoyable run. The ultimate goal is to win the Super Bowl, clearly, but even if Stallworth was only a one-year rental, at least he made a difference toward that goal.

[drowland]

I know this:

If the Eagles let go of Stallworth it will be the exact same thing as the Skins trading for Duckett and not signing him.

What did they give up for Stallworth? Mark Simoneau and a 4th rd pick?

[OWUeagleMD]

What did they give up for Stallworth? Mark Simoneau and a 4th rd pick?

Unless they resign him, in which case it becomes a 3rd Rd pick.

[drowland]

Well, since the you guys get so many comp picks it's not that bad. And if Simoneau was in a contract yr you really only traded a 4th.

[OWUeagleMD]

Well, since the you guys get so many comp picks it's not that bad. And if Simoneau was in a contract yr you really only traded a 4th.

I can't imagine we'll warrant many comp picks this year. Our only eligible departures are N.D Kalu, 7th rounder at best; Mike McMahon, nothing; Todd Pinkston, nothing; Keith Adams, nothing; and Donald Strickland, nothing.

This is a different offseason for the Eagles. We don't have a wealth of draft picks or cap room, unlike other years. It'll be interesting to see hwo they handle it.

Eagles fans: we traded Josh Parry to Seattle for a conditional 7th, and we made one other move around then too. Who was it?

[Pocono]

I can't imagine we'll warrant many comp picks this year. Our only eligible departures are N.D Kalu, 7th rounder at best; Mike McMahon, nothing; Todd Pinkston, nothing; Keith Adams, nothing; and Donald Strickland, nothing.

This is a different offseason for the Eagles. We don't have a wealth of draft picks or cap room, unlike other years. It'll be interesting to see hwo they handle it.

Eagles fans: we traded Josh Parry to Seattle for a conditional 7th, and we made one other move around then too. Who was it?

We traded Fraley. I believe both of those trades were for conditional 08 picks. We will get no compensatory picks in the 07 draft.

[OWUeagleMD]

Fraley, jeez. Can't believe honey buns slipped my mind.

[Jethrodsp]

Eddie Kennison was a gymnast through college. I would imagine his body control is better than nearly any receiver in the league. We are speaking in ambiguities at this point.

Im speaking on what Ive seen on the football field.

[Jethrodsp]

One final note:

Although I think Moss brings more to the field that Stallworth, I think it would be a mistake for the Eagles to let him out of Philly.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Let's look at this question from a different perspective. Whose career has been more disappointing: Moss or Stallworth's? Because I don't think either have fully lived up to their potential. Moss has one sublime year on his resume so I think Stallworth is clearly the bigger disappointment.

But I still probably think of Moss more in terms of "potential" than in production. Maybe because I saw him play live a few times during his college career and thought he was going to go to ten Pro Bowls.

[OWUeagleMD]

Let's look at this question from a different perspective. Whose career has been more disappointing: Moss or Stallworth's? Because I don't think either have fully lived up to their potential. Moss has one sublime year on his resume so I think Stallworth is clearly the bigger disappointment.

But I still probably think of Moss more in terms of "potential" than in production. Maybe because I saw him play live a few times during his college career and thought he was going to go to ten Pro Bowls.

I think they've both moved past the disapointment status, but if pushed, I'd say Stallworth is the answer. They were drafted at essentially the same spot and Stallworth has accomplished much less.

I think Moss' draft status may have suffered due to overexposure. He was one of the guys that even the casual football fan had seen play plenty of times, so his weaknesses became highly exagerated. As a result, he was drafted after Rod Gardner.

[jrockster21]

Let's look at this question from a different perspective. Whose career has been more disappointing: Moss or Stallworth's? Because I don't think either have fully lived up to their potential. Moss has one sublime year on his resume so I think Stallworth is clearly the bigger disappointment.

But I still probably think of Moss more in terms of "potential" than in production. Maybe because I saw him play live a few times during his college career and thought he was going to go to ten Pro Bowls.

You have to think of both of them in terms of "potential," imo. But the difference is, Moss has lived up to that potential twice, Stallworth has yet to have his "defining season."

he was drafted after Rod Gardner.

:doh: Don't remind us....:(

[bubba9497]

I think they've both moved past the disapointment status, but if pushed, I'd say Stallworth is the answer. They were drafted at essentially the same spot and Stallworth has accomplished much less.



Being a Vol fan, and watching Stallworth play WR at UT... I was shocked he was drafted as high as he was... yes he has speed, but hands of clay, and a history of injuries... the best WR was Kelly Washington, who has done nothing in Cincy since he was drafted in the third round... the best receiver on the team was the TE Jason Witten :)

I have been surprised Stallworth hasn't had more TO type easy drops with the eagles, he had a ton at Tennessee

he also had some maturity issues as well

[OWUeagleMD]

The drops and maturity plagued him in NO too. So far so good in Philly.