WP Wizards Puzzled as to How Depleted Celtics Made It So Close

[hands11]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/21/AR2007012100949.html

Red meat for the EJ lovers :laugh:

A Victory With No Explanation
Wizards Puzzled as to How Depleted Celtics Made It So Close

By Ivan Carter
Washington Post Staff Writer
Monday, January 22, 2007; Page E07

Gilbert Arenas discussed Saturday night's 115-110 win over the injury depleted Boston Celtics with a sheepish grin on his face, as if he was still trying to figure out how the Washington Wizards had such a difficult time handling a team that was playing without several key players, including leading scorers Paul Pierce and Wally Szczerbiak.

After the game, a relieved Eddie Jordan was kicking himself for going to a smaller lineup in the third quarter. When he pulled center Brendan Haywood off the floor and replaced him with Jarvis Hayes with 5 minutes 53 seconds remaining in the period, the Wizards held a comfortable 15-point lead.

[LiveStrongSkins]

:rolleyes: He did what a good coach does, puts the blame on himself. When he goes small that unit needs to be efficient on the offensive end and score in spurts. They didnt do that. We have a local guy who puts his all into this team and has us in first place in the east and yet all people can do is hate on him. Do we really need to chastise him for it being so hard to find a defensive post player?

(this wasnt directed to you hands11. I just dont understand all the hate for Jordan. Theres a reason why our star player pretty much let it be known eddie jordan better be his coach.)

[mad4comp]

:rolleyes: He did what a good coach does, puts the blame on himself.


When was the last time you heard a coach go, "Well its not my fault, the players ****** up..."

Of course, he's going to blame himself, good coach or not.



When he goes small that unit needs to be efficient on the offensive end and score in spurts. They didnt do that.


Problem is, they never do that, yet somehow EJ has the nerve to play the same stupid small ball lineup every game and scratch his head going "Hmmm... I wonder why the lead is disappearing.." Gee coach maybe it has something to do with Haywood, after all his on the court/off the court numbers are astounding.

Haywood on the court: +20
Haywood off the court: -15

thats a 35 point differential



We have a local guy who puts his all into this team and has us in first place in the east and yet all people can do is hate on him. Do we really need to chastise him for it being so hard to find a defensive post player?


First of all, he's not the reason the wiz are in first place, its because A.) the Eastern Conference is a joke. And B.) Caron and Gil are unstoppable.

If anything, EJ has lost/or almost lost a bunch of games for this team, if they had even a half decent coach, they'd be sitting pretty in the #1 spot with a couple game cushion ahead of Detroit and Cleveland.



(this wasn't directed to you hands11. I just dont understand all the hate for Jordan. Theres a reason why our star player pretty much let it be known eddie jordan better be his coach.)

Gilbert wanted EJ because EJ let him do whatever he wanted. Do you think any other coach, especially a defensive coach would let Gil take some of the shots he takes? It has nothing to do with him being a good coach... :(

[LiveStrongSkins]

Mad4comp- It's impossible to take your stance seriously. For one, you act as if you are speaking from experience. In Essence, you have no clue like the rest of us. You are a fan. So you mean to tell me you can honestly say Eddie Jordan hasnt done any good for this franchise? Its coincidence that players come into his system and rejuvenate their careers? It has nothing to do with Eddie Jordan that a guy like Hughes averages almost 23 points a game but then struggles in EVERY category after going to Cleveland? Nevermind, everything you say is right and Eddie Jordan has been the reason the Wizards havent won a title the last 3 years after sucking for two decades...:rolleyes:

[mad4comp]

Mad4comp- It's impossible to take your stance seriously. For one, you act as if you are speaking from experience. In Essence, you have no clue like the rest of us. You are a fan. So you mean to tell me you can honestly say Eddie Jordan hasnt done any good for this franchise? Its coincidence that players come into his system and rejuvenate their careers? It has nothing to do with Eddie Jordan that a guy like Hughes averages almost 23 points a game but then struggles in EVERY category after going to Cleveland? Nevermind, everything you say is right and Eddie Jordan has been the reason the Wizards havent won a title the last 3 years after sucking for two decades...:rolleyes:

Oh yea, I'm sure its the Washington system...the one where player are allowed to free lance and take whatever shot they want, whenever they want. And the fact that this team shoots more shots than say a Cleveland team... And no Im not speaking from experience, but rather using stats...here I'll show you how its done.

Larry Hughes
2004 - Wizards -22.0 ppg on ~18 FGA/game
2006 - Cavs - 15 ppg on 13 FGA/game

Caron Butler
2004 - Lakers - 16 ppg on 13 FGA/game
2006 - Wizards - 21ppg on 16 FGA/game

More FGA/game = more PPG....

And now that Larry is asked to run a real offense, instead of doing what he does best, slashing and getting to the line, he is struggling immensly. Plus it helps when your playing with 2 other all stars....

Sorry, EJ is still a bad coach :(

[LiveStrongSkins]

Oh yea, I'm sure its the Washington system...the one where player are allowed to free lance and take whatever shot they want, whenever they want. And the fact that this team shoots more shots than say a Cleveland team... And no Im not speaking from experience, but rather using stats...here I'll show you how its done.

Larry Hughes
2004 - Wizards -22.0 ppg on ~18 FGA/game
2006 - Cavs - 15 ppg on 13 FGA/game

Caron Butler
2004 - Lakers - 16 ppg on 13 FGA/game
2006 - Wizards - 21ppg on 16 FGA/game

More FGA/game = more PPG....

And now that Larry is asked to run a real offense, instead of doing what he does best, slashing and getting to the line, he is struggling immensly. Plus it helps when your playing with 2 other all stars....

Sorry, EJ is still a bad coach :(

So Eddie Jordan has had nothing to do with the Wizards success? nothing at all? Man, theres being objective but then theres just being completely unreasonable.

[mad4comp]

So Eddie Jordan has had nothing to do with the Wizards success? nothing at all? Man, theres being objective but then theres just being completely unreasonable.

I never said that...please quote me if I did....

I will give him credit for what he does off the court, that is be a "players coach" but other than that hes done nothing worthwhile. Hes just a terrible in game coach (where it matters the most)....

[DoGood28]

So Eddie Jordan has had nothing to do with the Wizards success? nothing at all? Man, theres being objective but then theres just being completely unreasonable.

Dude, he's not worth it so just give up. He just hates Jordan so much that he can't live with himself without spewing ridiculous claims about EJ daily. The ignore button works WONDERS.

[mad4comp]

So Eddie Jordan has had nothing to do with the Wizards success? nothing at all? Man, theres being objective but then theres just being completely unreasonable.


Dude, he's not worth it so just give up. He just hates Jordan so much that he can't live with himself without spewing ridiculous claims about EJ daily. The ignore button works WONDERS.

See all I hear is that "EJ is a good coach" but no one backs it up with anything, they never show the games where hes singlehandedly won the game with some tremendous lineups or great execution plays to get Gil open for the final shot etc... And the "Hes a great players coach" routine is getting kind of old now, who cares what he does off the court, its what he does on it that matters the most, and frankly he hasn't done much on that aspect.

And you can ignore me if you want, its your choice. But that lets me further know that you'd rather cling onto the notion that EJ is a good coach by looking at the teams record and the wins the Big 3 singlehandedly win for him, rather than point out what EJ has done to deserve the title of a "good coach."

[LiveStrongSkins]

See all I hear is that "EJ is a good coach" but no one backs it up with anything, they never show the games where hes singlehandedly won the game with some tremendous lineups or great execution plays to get Gil open for the final shot etc... And the "Hes a great players coach" routine is getting kind of old now, who cares what he does off the court, its what he does on it that matters the most, and frankly he hasn't done much on that aspect.

And you can ignore me if you want, its your choice. But that lets me further know that you'd rather cling onto the notion that EJ is a good coach by looking at the teams record and the wins the Big 3 singlehandedly win for him, rather than point out what EJ has done to deserve the title of a "good coach."

What games do you have proof that he didnt win? You have absolutely no idea what he goes over in the hours of meetings. You arent sitting in the film room when he breaks down the film and gives pointers out to each player. You arent sitting there during timeouts and you arent there at halftime either. So really, its you that looks baseless here.

[Chachie]

Nobody at the beginning of this thread has changed their mind about EJ one way or the other since then.
I think EJ's great at stroking talent and bad at subbing players. I don't want to lose him because I think he knows where this team is at and is on the same page with Ernie Grunfeld about what it needs.
I would ask Hands and Mad to chill on their criticism during game threads but I don't think it would matter. The rest of you can place them on ignore.

This is one tough forum for a home team. :)

[twenty-eight]

This isn't going anywhere. I've learned that you can't change mad's mind. Accept each others opinion, agree to disagree and move on.:2cents:

[mad4comp]

What games do you have proof that he didnt win? You have absolutely no idea what he goes over in the hours of meetings. You arent sitting in the film room when he breaks down the film and gives pointers out to each player. You arent sitting there during timeouts and you arent there at halftime either. So really, its you that looks baseless here.

What kind of reasoning is that? Why do I need to be in the huddle, when I can just watch what they do after the timeout or during the game? I've seen numerous times where EJ calls a timeout only to come back from the timeout and dig an even deeper hole. And what about his atrocious lineups, do I need to be in the huddle to see that they suck? Especially his stupid small ball lineup? How about, do I need to be in the huddle to see that hes incredibly stupid not to play Haywood down the stretch of a game?

ITs what the team does after the timeouts or during the game which dictates how good the coach is. So why exactly do I have to be on the bench listening in to the calls again?

P.S read over the game threads for the NOK, SA, NYK, DEN, Tor, Mil games and tell me what the common theme among the threads is....

[Diablo23]

Spurs were leading big against the Celtics... Celtics close the stretch but Spurs end up winning by a few.

Spurs win in spite of Greg Popovich :rolleyes:

[fixer26er]

Dude, he's not worth it so just give up. He just hates Jordan so much that he can't live with himself without spewing ridiculous claims about EJ daily. The ignore button works WONDERS.

The problem is everything he said was right. EJ IS a terrible in game coach when compared to other coaches in the league. I just hope he learns from his mistakes because it'll cost this team in the playoffs.

The best thing about EJ is he realizes the talent he has had over the years in the Big 3 and he just let them do their thing which is great for the regular season. Problem is, that doesn't work in the playoffs.

I don't want to be labeled an Eddie basher. I like him as a person and I want to like him as a coach. He seems nice and he's a local guy. And anyone who uses the phrase "you gotta stash your nuts away" is a-ok in my book. I just want to see growth and a better understanding from the coach as much as the players, but with Eddie it just seems to be the same mistakes over and over. They could very well win 50 games this season, but I just don't think Eddie can outcoach any one in the playoffs where coaching makes a difference. Until I see him correct some of his mistakes on a consistant basis I'll complain.

[LiveStrongSkins]

This isn't going anywhere. I've learned that you can't change mad's mind. Accept each others opinion, agree to disagree and move on.:2cents:

:laugh: It's cool. I respectfully disagree with Mad. I just like to try to see what the hell he thinks the way he does.

Hey mad how do you feel about Gibbs and company? :laugh:

[twenty-eight]

:laugh: It's cool. I respectfully disagree with Mad. I just like to try to see what the hell he thinks the way he does.


:laugh: Thats funny because thats the point I got to with Mad. Hey Mad, why dont you ever bring up EJ's coaching record;)

[mad4comp]

:laugh: It's cool. I respectfully disagree with Mad. I just like to try to see what the hell he thinks the way he does.


Take off the Wizards shades for a second, and you'll see where I'm coming from. :cool:

[LiveStrongSkins]

Take off the Wizards shades for a second, and you'll see where I'm coming from. :cool:

I'll admit he isnt Popovich, but he atleast is in the top half of the league. Not great but certainly not bad. I really dont know who could come in and blow away what he is doing right now thats not already hired.

[mad4comp]

Spurs were leading big against the Celtics... Celtics close the stretch but Spurs end up winning by a few.

Spurs win in spite of Greg Popovich :rolleyes:

I didnt watch the game so I couldnt tell you if it was what Popovich was doing, or that the celts just got hot and were knocking down some ridiculous shots.

P.S when is a 12 point lead going into the 4th considered a big lead?

[mad4comp]

I'll admit he isnt Popovich, but he atleast is in the top half of the league. Not great but certainly not bad. I really dont know who could come in and blow away what he is doing right now thats not already hired.

Well since this offense is basically a 1 on 1 , shoot when you want offense, A defensive minded coach would come in here and blow the pants off of EJ's coaching style.

[fixer26er]

:laugh: Thats funny because thats the point I got to with Mad. Hey Mad, why dont you ever bring up EJ's coaching record;)

Wins Losses
156 209 .427

[mad4comp]

:laugh: Thats funny because thats the point I got to with Mad. Hey Mad, why dont you ever bring up EJ's coaching record;)

Well then People would look at his record and go, "well the first year doesnt count since he was getting acclimated with the players...etc...."

So I'd rather skip that little argument... ;)

[Mr. Grundle]

I've got a feeling if a defensive coach came in here he would slit his wrists when he realized the PLAYERS he has are bad at defense. Then our offense would probably get alot worse, having a defensive-minded coach and all. Then we would all be sitting here hoping we can win the Greg Oden sweepstakes instead of being in first place in the East.

EJ is a good coach for this team.

[BayouBrave86]

Look what the little general did for Dallas. I sometimes wonder what this team would accomplish with a new coach. However; I'm willing to give Jordan another year or two. I want to see what he can do when the final piece is added to the so-called puzzle.

[Warhead36]

I don't think we can reasonably replace EJ until we consistently make it to the playoffs and get bounced. It would be bad for team morale if we simply dumped him because one aspect of our game wasn't working so well. As bad as we are defensively under JE our offense is great. Yes we have great players, but to completely brush aside EJ's coaching under that area would be a mistake. When EJ was with the Nets he developed a great relationship with Jason Kidd and Kidd consistently gave EJ a lot of credit for helping him become an even better player.

Now is EJ a great Coach? No way. Is he a good Coach? Well...I think he's okay. He has his flaws. The good thing is they're very correctable flaws. The bad thing is in over three years as the Coach he's repeating the same mistakes. He tends to fall in love with certain guys and plays them even if they bring a detriment to the team. Whether it be Juan Dixon then or Jarvis Hayes/Michael Ruffin now.

He does do things well. He seems to be able to get the most out of his players offensively. He's a players coach and the guys love playing for him and that speaks volumes. You don't have to be buddy buddy with your players but if that respect factor isn't there no team will ever be great. Remember, Phil Jackson wasn't a HOF coach right away. He and MJ had a pretty rough relationship at first. Now I'm not saying EJ-Gil will be PJ-MJ but just stating an example. You could use Larry Brown with AI as well, and I'm sure there are others.

I guess my main point is EJ is who he is. He's got positive aspects, he's got flaws. If he can work on correcting his flaws he could be a great Head Coach for many years to come. If not? Well we'll be looking for a new Coach in a couple of years time would be my guess. But to say every thing thats wrong with the team is EJ's fault would be false.

[GOSKINS_08]

The celtics come back from 18 down to almost beat the spurs..The spurs are mediocre, and they should fire Popovich.

[mad4comp]

The celtics come back from 18 down to almost beat the spurs..The spurs are mediocre, and they should fire Popovich.

You think I'm basing my opinion off of 1 game by EJ??

:/

[GOSKINS_08]

You think I'm basing my opinion off of 1 game by EJ??

:/

Im just saying that its obvious Popovich is horrible, and the spurs are mediocre..The spurs will probably lose in the first round of the playoffs.

[Spaceman Spiff]

LOL mad4comp is on this like stink on ****. Hilarious :)

[hands11]

When was the last time you heard a coach go, "Well its not my fault, the players ****** up..."

Of course, he's going to blame himself, good coach or not.



Problem is, they never do that, yet somehow EJ has the nerve to play the same stupid small ball lineup every game and scratch his head going "Hmmm... I wonder why the lead is disappearing.." Gee coach maybe it has something to do with Haywood, after all his on the court/off the court numbers are astounding.

Haywood on the court: +20
Haywood off the court: -15

thats a 35 point differential



First of all, he's not the reason the wiz are in first place, its because A.) the Eastern Conference is a joke. And B.) Caron and Gil are unstoppable.

If anything, EJ has lost/or almost lost a bunch of games for this team, if they had even a half decent coach, they'd be sitting pretty in the #1 spot with a couple game cushion ahead of Detroit and Cleveland.



Gilbert wanted EJ because EJ let him do whatever he wanted. Do you think any other coach, especially a defensive coach would let Gil take some of the shots he takes? It has nothing to do with him being a good coach... :(

Excellent review of the situation. That pretty much breaks it down.

As an aside to others. I wasnt posting this article to bash EJ but as good news that he at least seeems to be admitting a fault and I hope he has learned from this. This is good news to us.

[MonkFan8]

As an aside to others. I wasnt posting this article to bash EJ but as good news that he at least seeems to be admitting a fault and I hope he has learned from this. This is good news to us.Not only that, but it seems there is some rational to his line-up decisions. That alone is reason to be optomistic ;)

[hands11]

So Eddie Jordan has had nothing to do with the Wizards success? nothing at all? Man, theres being objective but then theres just being completely unreasonable.


Look, we have explained our views over and over.

He is good at what he has always been good at and those are the duties of an assistant coach, which he was very good at. He is a good teacher. He is a good players coach.

What we complain about is people acting like he is the GM, he isnt EG is. He brought the talent here.

We also complain about his rotations and who he start and minutes and when he calls TOs. Thats a game time coach. He is average there but he has improved whch is reasonable since he had never been a head coach game coach. He is learning on the job. He is gettng better, its just painful to watch sometimes. Because he isnt a great game coach, he has lost some games because of that.

Its not that he hasnt done anything, its just he isnt the whole package. At least not yet.

[hands11]

What games do you have proof that he didnt win? You have absolutely no idea what he goes over in the hours of meetings. You arent sitting in the film room when he breaks down the film and gives pointers out to each player. You arent sitting there during timeouts and you arent there at halftime either. So really, its you that looks baseless here.


Your right. The ignore button does do wonders. I think I will give it a try because you obviously aren't listening to reason.

You missing the whole point. What he does to break down film off the court isnt what makes a good/great game time coach. We can all see the line ups and the momentum changes and who is shooting when and when. I can see if its just individual talent or a play that is run.

Its an argument about a great head coach. That involves being a great game coach. I can see what he does in the games. He isn't a great game coach. Its posted in every game thread, MAD doesn't have to repost all of those observations to make a point.

[hands11]

The problem is everything he said was right. EJ IS a terrible in game coach when compared to other coaches in the league. I just hope he learns from his mistakes because it'll cost this team in the playoffs.

The best thing about EJ is he realizes the talent he has had over the years in the Big 3 and he just let them do their thing which is great for the regular season. Problem is, that doesn't work in the playoffs.

I don't want to be labeled an Eddie basher. I like him as a person and I want to like him as a coach. He seems nice and he's a local guy. And anyone who uses the phrase "you gotta stash your nuts away" is a-ok in my book. I just want to see growth and a better understanding from the coach as much as the players, but with Eddie it just seems to be the same mistakes over and over. They could very well win 50 games this season, but I just don't think Eddie can outcoach any one in the playoffs where coaching makes a difference. Until I see him correct some of his mistakes on a consistant basis I'll complain.

a very fair position only I would add, I have seems some improvements. Love the Tech he got the other night. I also saw him sub AJ out and Haywood in for a defensive stand last in a recent game. So some of the mistakes he makes over and over do get corrected. Ive pulling for him to become the whole package. That doesn't mean his is now or that a better head coach wouldn't get us more wins today.

[hands11]

Not only that, but it seems there is some rational to his line-up decisions. That alone is reason to be optomistic ;)

I missed that part of the article. What was the rational besides that we had a lead and it back fired.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Spurs were leading big against the Celtics... Celtics close the stretch but Spurs end up winning by a few.

Spurs win in spite of Greg Popovich :rolleyes:
Yeah dude I watched almost the whole game and the Celtics did the EXACT same thing to the almighty Spurs. They were down by or almost by 20 and Gomes, West, and Ray and them just went on a tear in the fourth quarter and had it as close as two a couple of times, if I'm remember correctly. A lucky bounce and they would have taken that game into overtime. Oh and it wasn't the Spurs bench. Duncan, Ginoboli and Parker were all out there. I was going to bring this up in here for those of you who are still disgusted by that WIN.