The Religion of Peace strikes again.

[Kilmer17]

Gosh almighty, it's been almost a WHOLE YEAR since some piece of crap terrorstinian strapped a bomb to his chest and killed a bunch of innocent Israeli's.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070129/D8MUUBU80.html

[Spaceman Spiff]

What really baffles me is that they think this kind of action is helping their cause when it just pisses off everyone else even more.

Sad.

[The Sir]

Is this really fair? Do we blame christianity when an abortion clinic is bombed?

[AsburySkinsFan]

What really baffles me is that they think this kind of action is helping their cause when it just pisses off everyone else even more.

Sad.

The first Palestinian leader who can lead people into a non-violent resistence movement (i.e. Ghandi, and MLK Jr) will go down in history for changing the face of the Middle East.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Is this really fair? Do we blame christianity when an abortion clinic is bombed?

Uh, yeah. see the Scientology thread, there are some who blame the Christian faith for the abuses perpetrated by some.

*edit* Fair? no, reality? yes*/edit*

[Zguy28]

Is this really fair? Do we blame christianity when an abortion clinic is bombed?Why yes, I've even been a victim of the stereotype on this very board...

[Sarge]

Gosh almighty, it's been almost a WHOLE YEAR since some piece of crap terrorstinian strapped a bomb to his chest and killed a bunch of innocent Israeli's.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070129/D8MUUBU80.html

I'm sorry, but you appear to be an insensitive knuckle-dragging neanderthal who does not understand the complexities of the islamists. They are only protecting themselves against the evil Zionists. That, and you violated board rules about posting the article headline in the thread

Jimmy Carter

[Kilmer17]

And the last abortion clinic was bombed??????????

when?

[Sarge]

And the last abortion clinic was bombed??????????

when?

Damn it! That doesn't matter! Don't you know we're a parriah state?


John Kerry

[Sarge]

A nice, "human" side to the story :rolleyes:


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0%2C7340%2CL-3358519%2C00.html


Bomber's brother: We're happy Muhammad is the hero


In their mourning tent, Saqsaq family fails to express any sorrow. 'We knew he was waiting for this moment. He wanted to be shahid, and earned it,' brother tells Ynet. He explains that his brother tried to send message to Palestinian factions to fight against Israel, not against one another

Ali Waked Published: 01.29.07, 20:22




"The whole family was very happy when it heard that Muhammad is the hero who carried out the attack,"

said Naim Saqsaq, the brother of Muhammad Saqsaq, who carried out the suicide attack in Eilat that killed three people.



"We knew that he was waiting and praying for this moment. He always said, 'If only I could be a shahid, if only I could carry out an attack.' And here Allah gave him the privilege," he told Ynet.


Bombing

3 killed in Eilat terror attack / Ynet reporters




The brother recounted that Muhammad was an unemployed construction worker. He was married. His only daughter died from disease three weeks ago.



"He was always in the mindset of the fighters. When the Israelis were invading Gaza, he participated in the battles in Jabalya and Beit Hanoun. He was waiting for this moment. The truth is that we knew that at some point he would be killed in a confrontation with the Israelis and would be a shahid. Because of this, we are happy that God gave him what he asked for."




Naim told that he saw his brother for the last time four days ago. "I don't know how to explain the reports that the attack was prepared over many long months. In my opinion, he went on his way four days ago. I don't know where to," he explained.



Cleanly shaven, wearing jeans

According to Naim, his brother was a very religious person who always expressed hope that Hamas and Fatah and all the Palestinians would unite, and would stop fighting against one another, instead focusing their efforts to fight against "the Zionist enemy."



The brother recounted that Muhammad was very pained recently, and always said that he wished he has some way of doing something to end the confrontation within the Palestinian Authority.





Naim Saqsaq said that in his opinion, by carrying out the terror attack, he wanted to send the message: "There is no place for killing and internal war, and that we should only fight against 'the Zionist enemy.'"



According to Naim, "He got his wish, and we got this honor. The people in the mourners' tent in Beit Lahiya are praising us for this action that came at such a difficult and sensitive time for the Palestinians – a time in which Palestinian blood is being spilled."




One of Muhammad's friends told Ynet that he saw him for the last time on Thursday, and he looked different. "I am used to seeing him with a beard, but on this day he was cleanly shaven and had a short haircut like an American Marines soldier. This was the first time I saw him with gel in his hair and in jeans," said the friend.




"I asked him where he was going with this whole getup. He didn't answer, but he looked very happy to me. He laughed and joked. When he said bye to me, he didn't say 'Salam alaykum,' as is customary for believers, but said, 'Bye bye' – something he had never said," recounted the friend.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

Damn it! That doesn't matter! Don't you know we're a parriah state?


John Kerry


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[dfitzo53]

Damn it! That doesn't matter! Don't you know we're a parriah state?


John Kerry
I'm guessing John Kerry knows how to spell pariah.

;)

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

The first Palestinian leader who can lead people into a non-violent resistence movement (i.e. Ghandi, and MLK Jr) will go down in history for changing the face of the Middle East.
Nothing truer was ever said.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Is this really fair? Do we blame christianity when an abortion clinic is bombed?

You're really comparing a group of people that can't get along with its neighbors AROUND THE WORLD stacking up thousands, millions of dead bodies or enslaved or oppressed minorities (esp if we include women) to the handful to couple dozen abortion clinic bombings?

BTW, one can be anti-abortion and not be CHristian, so the analogy lacks even more in credibility.

[SnyderShrugged]

You're really comparing a group of people that can't get along with its neighbors AROUND THE WORLD stacking up thousands, millions of dead bodies or enslaved or oppressed minorities (esp if we include women) to the handful to couple dozen abortion clinic bombings?

BTW, one can be anti-abortion and not be CHristian, so the analogy lacks even more in credibility.


Great post! (I am anti-abortion but not for christian reasons, even though I am a Christian)

[SnyderShrugged]

I'm guessing John Kerry knows how to spell pariah.

;)


:D Pariah Kerry

[chomerics]

The first Palestinian leader who can lead people into a non-violent resistence movement (i.e. Ghandi, and MLK Jr) will go down in history for changing the face of the Middle East.

I agree, there is a STRONG absence of a violence free leader. . .maybe that is because the people who don't like violence are all killed before they become too powerful?

MLK was a man who changed the face of our country and led us to the path of tolerance, I do not see a Muslim leader with his charisma out there. Maybe there is one, but as of right now, I have not seen the person. (but then again, would TV actually show this person? I mean that does not sell ratings, and it is not what people want to see anyways, so we'd probably never hear about it if there was one)

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

You're really comparing a group of people that can't get along with its neighbors AROUND THE WORLD stacking up thousands, millions of dead bodies or enslaved or oppressed minorities (esp if we include women) to the handful to couple dozen abortion clinic bombings?

BTW, one can be anti-abortion and not be CHristian, so the analogy lacks even more in credibility.
What about the history of christianity?

[jpillian]

What about the history of christianity?

What about the history of athiesm? What about the history and PRESENT state of Islam?

[SnyderShrugged]

What about the history of athiesm? What about the history and PRESENT state of Islam?


I know! I love how people somehow forget that the strife between Islam and Christianity in history was evil on both sides. Islamists killed just as many as Christians despite the rhetoric on the crusades.

I agree, Look at the Present anyway, the past has no bearing to the evil radical islam represents today

[rincewind]

What about the history of athiesm? What about the history and PRESENT state of Islam?

Athiesm is not an organized religion. Apples and oranges.

[techboy]

I'm guessing John Kerry knows how to spell pariah.

;)

Kerry's grades at Yale were actually a little worse than Bush's, so who knows? ;)

[Spaceman Spiff]

Kerry's grades at Yale were actually a little worse than Bush's, so who knows? ;)

The liberals are gonna say that Bush's daddy bought him his grades at Yale. Book it.

[jpillian]

Athiesm is not an organized religion. Apples and oranges.

The contention is that the religion (Islam or Christianity) was the motivation for violence.

Athiesm may or may not be a religion -- but the belief has motivated many of the same terrible actions which are common to the world's main religions.

[luckydevil]

The liberals are gonna say that Bush's daddy bought him his grades at Yale. Book it.

Dude are you bipolar? I like the Spaceman Spiff who rightfully bitches about the tone and partisanship of this board. Responses like this contribute to degradation of this board.

[dfitzo53]

:D Pariah Kerry
:rotflmao:


The liberals are gonna say that Bush's daddy bought him his grades at Yale. Book it.
I'll bet if his dad wanted to buy grades, he could do better than a C average. ;)

[Cdowwe]

Is this really fair? Do we blame christianity when an abortion clinic is bombed?

Yes. Radical Christianity is blamed every time.

[luckydevil]

You're really comparing a group of people that can't get along with its neighbors AROUND THE WORLD stacking up thousands, millions of dead bodies or enslaved or oppressed minorities (esp if we include women) to the handful to couple dozen abortion clinic bombings?

BTW, one can be anti-abortion and not be CHristian, so the analogy lacks even more in credibility.

It is not a terrible analogy at all. A Christian who bombs an abortion clinic shares a lot of similarities to the guy who willing to die for an Islamic cause. Christian fundamentalism is just as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalism. Any type of fundamentalism is dangerous, be it in secular or religious terms. The point you have should have made is that Islamic terrorism is far more expansive in scope in terms of influence and the number of participants.

[stevenaa]

It is not a terrible analogy at all. A Christian who bombs an abortion clinic shares a lot of similarities to the guy who willing to die for an Islamic cause. Christian fundamentalism is just as dangerous as Islamic fundamentalism. Any type of fundamentalism is dangerous, be it in secular or religious terms. The point you have should have made is that Islamic terrorism is far more expansive in scope in terms of influence and the number of participants.


Well, that and the lack of a strong Islamic voice condeming the fundis. :)

[luckydevil]

Well, that and the lack of a strong Islamic voice condeming the fundis. :)

It does exist. SHF has posted numerous articles that have shown prominent Muslims and Muslim organizations condemning fundamentalism and terrorism. However, sadly his threads tend to get ignored. I have some theories on why, but that is for another thread. Next time pay attention

[chomerics]

It does exist. SHF has posted numerous articles that have shown prominent Muslims and Muslim organizations condemning fundamentalism and terrorism. However, sadly his threads tend to get ignored. I have some theories on why, but that is for another thread. Next time pay attention

Where do you get off actually bringing truth and discourse into the discussion? Bad boy lucky bad boy. . .

Actually, the only surprising thing for ME in this thread was that Sarge did not start it. . .

[Spaceman Spiff]

:rotflmao:


I'll bet if his dad wanted to buy grades, he could do better than a C average. ;)

Well if Bush got better grades than Kerry did...Kerry's lookin at a C- or D+ at best.

Which probably beats my 3.0 I eeked out at GMU, but whatever.


Dude are you bipolar? I like the Spaceman Spiff who rightfully bitches about the tone and partisanship of this board. Responses like this contribute to degradation of this board.

Well, I do have to pick a side sometime ;)

It just gets way outta hand sometimes on here though. I seriously don't understand how people can argue the same points over and over again, beating the political horse to death. By this point, a fine bloody pulp, IMO.

[Sarge]

It does exist. SHF has posted numerous articles that have shown prominent Muslims and Muslim organizations condemning fundamentalism and terrorism. However, sadly his threads tend to get ignored. I have some theories on why, but that is for another thread. Next time pay attention

Well gee, I went to find this Islamic voice that condems islamic terrorism and guess what, nothing on their front page.



http://www.cair-net.org/

I wonder why? :rolleyes:

[headexplode]

:D Pariah Kerry


I liked it.

[headexplode]

The liberals are gonna say that Bush's daddy bought him his grades at Yale. Book it.

What has his daddy not bought for him?

[headexplode]

Well gee, I went to find this Islamic voice that condems islamic terrorism and guess what, nothing on their front page.



http://www.cair-net.org/

I wonder why? :rolleyes:

Because obsessing over every death is pretty unhealthy. Of course, I'm sure you're not counting the deaths of the civilian palestinians (well, other than to gloat).

[Sarge]

Because obsessing over every death is pretty unhealthy. Of course, I'm sure you're not counting the deaths of the civilian palestinians (well, other than to gloat).

But where is the condemnation from this "voice of moderaton" that CAIR claims to be? Where is the condemnation from any arab group?

[SkinsHokieFan]

But where is the condemnation from this "voice of moderaton" that CAIR claims to be? Where is the condemnation from any arab group?


You should read Musharraf's book

Something tells me you and him would get along great :)

[Sarge]

You should read Musharraf's book

Something tells me you and him would get along great :)

Actually I got to meet him once, albeit very briefly.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Actually I got to meet him once, albeit very briefly.


Try the book. I actually just finished it last night so I may if I feel like it put a thread reviewing it today

80 percent of it is really Pakistan focused and about Pakistan internal politics and wars with India

The other 20 percent is some fun stuff. The general doesn't mess around. But then again when the *******s try and take your life, the gloves come off

His views are probably most in line with mine with regards to the GWOT (even with the so called 'peace plan' made with the tribes last year)

[headexplode]

But where is the condemnation from this "voice of moderaton" that CAIR claims to be? Where is the condemnation from any arab group?


Maybe they just don't cair.

[Sarge]

Try the book. I actually just finished it last night so I may if I feel like it put a thread reviewing it today

80 percent of it is really Pakistan focused and about Pakistan internal politics and wars with India

The other 20 percent is some fun stuff. The general doesn't mess around. But then again when the *******s try and take your life, the gloves come off

His views are probably most in line with mine with regards to the GWOT (even with the so called 'peace plan' made with the tribes last year)


I'll put it on my list. Thanks!

[JMS]

I agree, there is a STRONG absence of a violence free leader. . .maybe that is because the people who don't like violence are all killed before they become too powerful?



MLK was a man who changed the face of our country and led us to the path of tolerance, I do not see a Muslim leader with his charisma out there. Maybe there is one, but as of right now, I have not seen the person. (but then again, would TV actually show this person? I mean that does not sell ratings, and it is not what people want to see anyways, so we'd probably never hear about it if there was one)Not all the non violent protesters were even Moslems... remember Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall and Brian Avery?

Rachel Corrie who chained herself to Palestinian home which Israel wanted to destroy. They crushed her to death with the bulldozer. Broad Daylight..... Didn't help her that she was an American.. They did it to make an example of her. They didn't even convict the bulldozer driver of a crime.
This weekend 23-year-old American peace activist Rachel Corrie was crushed to death by a bulldozer as she tried to prevent the Israeli army destroying homes in the Gaza Strip. http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html)

Rachel is in Red... These photos taken just before and after she was crushed to death by the Israeli Defense Force..
http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/img/original/largerachfront.jpg



http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/img/original/rach.jpg

http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/img/original/rach1.jpg

http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/img/original/rach3.jpg

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_photo_story.htm (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_photo_story.htm)

Of course the United States wasn't satisfied with the IDF's white wash investigation of the incident..http://www.americanintifada.com/idfreport.htm (http://www.americanintifada.com/idfreport.htm)







http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/tom1.gif
Tom Hurndall the British peace activist who was shot to death while trying to shield Palestinians children from Israeli military snippers. ( The IDF's award winning marksman, SNIPPER shooting from nearby observation tower, head shot the activist.)



Israel will boycott an inquest opening today in London which will investigate the death of a British peace activist shot dead in broad daylight by an Israeli soldier.



Tom Hurndall, 22, died after being shot in Rafah, Gaza, while trying to lead Palestinian children to safety after the soldier opened fire from a nearby observation tower in April 2003.http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0410-07.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0410-07.htm)



http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1122691,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1122691,00.html)

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/images/brian.gif






Brian Avery, another American who was shot in the face by Israeli troops but lived to tell about the attempt on his life.
We go to Israel to speak with U.S. peace activist Brian Avery. In April 2003, he was shot in the face - he says - by Israeli forces. His face was shattered, with his tongue split in two, forcing him to undergo a series of facial reconstruction surgeries. [includes rush transcript]http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/25/1455249

http://www.legrandsoir.info/IMG/jpg/Abir_Aramin.jpg


The girl's father is one of the founders of Combatants for Peace, a group of former Israel Defense Forces soldiers and Palestinian gunmen, who are touring schools to preach coexistence.





Of coarse there are ways of turning a non violent peace activist towards violence..


Israeli's kill the 10 year old daughter of Palestinian peace activist.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/818744.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/818744.html)









There are two sides to the story. The terrorism didn't start with the suicide bomber. All the violence is counter productive and American's shouldn't be deceived that one sides use of terrorism is any better than the others. America should be against all the killings of innocents in the region. Until we are there is no hope for peace by blindly backing one side over the other in senseless killings we enable the entire mess to continue by finance, arms and tolerance..

[chomerics]

Not all the non violent protesters were even Moslems... remember Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall and Brian Avery?

Rachel Corrie who chained herself to Palestinian home which Israel wanted to destroy. They crushed her to death with the bulldozer. Broad Daylight..... Didn't help her that she was an American.. They did it to make an example of her. They didn't even convict the bulldozer driver of a crime.[/color][/font]http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,916299,00.html)

http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_photo_story.htm (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/031603_photo_story.htm)

Tom Hurndall the British peace activist who was shot to death while trying to shield Palestinians children from Israeli military.

Of course the United States wasn't satisfied with the IDF's white wash investigation of the incident..
http://www.americanintifada.com/idfreport.htm (http://www.americanintifada.com/idfreport.htm)


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0410-07.htm (http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0410-07.htm)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1122691,00.html (http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1122691,00.html)

Brian Avery, another American who was shot in the face by Israeli troops but lived to tell about the attempted murder on his life.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/02/25/1455249
Of coarse there are ways of turning a non violent peace activist towards violence..
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/818744.html (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/818744.html)
There are two sides to the story. The terrorism didn't start with the suicide bomber. All the violence is counter productive and American's shouldn't be deceived that one sides use of terrorism is any better than the others. America should be against all the killings of innocents in the region. Until we are there is no hope for peace by blindly backing one side over the other in senseless killings....[/color][/font]


I am not talking about protesters, but LEADERS, there is a difference. Cindy Sheehan is a protester, Martin Luther King was a LEADER. There is a resounding difference!!!

In order to be a leader, you need to do more then strap yourself to a building, you need to have the charisma and charm to pursuade people to your way of thinking. That is what I was talking about.

Heck, of course there are protesters, you will find a protester for ANYTHING, it doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. What I was talking about was a LEADER, one who will garner people's support through his charisma and intellect. MLK was one, JFK was another, RFK to some extent, Ghandi, these were all LEADERS who garnered support through their persona, heck OBL and Hitler were leaders too. The only American with that type of potential is Obama, and I don't even know if he has it. . . The ME, from what I have seen, lacks that true leader with the charisma to get people to believe his way is the right way.

[Sarge]

I am not talking about protesters, but LEADERS, there is a difference. Cindy Sheehan is a protester, Martin Luther King was a LEADER. There is a resounding difference!!!

In order to be a leader, you need to do more then strap yourself to a building, you need to have the charisma and charm to pursuade people to your way of thinking. That is what I was talking about.

Heck, of course there are protesters, you will find a protester for ANYTHING, it doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. What I was talking about was a LEADER, one who will garner people's support through his charisma and intellect. MLK was one, JFK was another, RFK to some extent, Ghandi, these were all LEADERS who garnered support through their persona, heck OBL and Hitler were leaders too. The only American with that type of potential is Obama, and I don't even know if he has it. . . The ME, from what I have seen, lacks that true leader with the charisma to get people to believe his way is the right way.

Ever thought that maybe they've already blown themselves up killing Jews?

[JMS]

I am not talking about protesters, but LEADERS, there is a difference. Cindy Sheehan is a protester, Martin Luther King was a LEADER. There is a resounding difference!!!

In order to be a leader, you need to do more then strap yourself to a building, you need to have the charisma and charm to pursuade people to your way of thinking. That is what I was talking about.

Heck, of course there are protesters, you will find a protester for ANYTHING, it doesn't mean squat in the grand scheme of things. What I was talking about was a LEADER, one who will garner people's support through his charisma and intellect. MLK was one, JFK was another, RFK to some extent, Ghandi, these were all LEADERS who garnered support through their persona, heck OBL and Hitler were leaders too. The only American with that type of potential is Obama, and I don't even know if he has it. . . The ME, from what I have seen, lacks that true leader with the charisma to get people to believe his way is the right way.

chomerics. I would put it to you that Martin Luther king only got involved in the equal rights movement after he read about Rosa Parks protest on the Bus. King was an activist as well as a leader. King was arrested, as was Ghandi. If king was murdered in Mongomery in the late 1950's you never would have heard about him in the 1960's. If Ghandi was murdered in South Africa protesting aparthide, you never would have heard from hin in India a decade later.



On Thursday, April 28, about 1,000 Palestinians and some 200 Israeli guests, invited by the people of Bil'in, participated in a demonstration against the wall. All the participants undertook in advance to avoid all violence, no matter whether they had seen the Gandhi film or not. But even before the demo could reach the site of the fence, it was savagely attacked by the Israeli security forces, which bombarded it with tear-gas bombs without the slightest provocation. Among the demonstrators were the Palestinian minister Fares Kadduri, presidential candidate Mustafa Barghouti, Uri Avnery, and Israeli Knesset member Muhammad Barakeh, who was wounded during the attack. The peaceful demonstration was a welcome occasion for Israeli special units to wound several demonstrators with the latest innovation, introduced here for the first time: especially painful plastic bullets covered with salt. Indeed, the so-called Jewish Genius is never exhausted.
http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=5796


There are plenty of non violent Palistinians as well as non arab peace protesters and leaders. Israel is just very good at dealing with them. Murder, intimidation, and if that doesn't work; Israel deports them.

Mohammed al-Atar, of the US-based Palestinians for Peace and Democracy

The grandson of the Mohotma also works for Palestinian Peace..
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Opinion%20editorials/2004%20opinions/August/29%20o/Gandhi%20in%20Palestine%20Grandson%20of%20All%20Ba ttles%20%20By%20Ashish%20Kumar%20Sen.htm

[jrockster21]

Why is it so hard to view these muslims as extremists, the same way abortion-clinic bombers are viewed? Or the guy who was protesting at soldier's funerals? I just don't get it.

[Major Harris]

Why is it so hard to view these muslims as extremists, the same way abortion-clinic bombers are viewed? Or the guy who was protesting at soldier's funerals? I just don't get it.

it's not hard for most people. there are some who have a problem separating those kinds of things, even the abortion clinic bombers. (which i had a post of yours in mind to quote from another thread, but you have edited it ;) )

[SnyderShrugged]

Why is it so hard to view these muslims as extremists, the same way abortion-clinic bombers are viewed? Or the guy who was protesting at soldier's funerals? I just don't get it.

actually think there are many factors that make it difficult to view them as just an extreme portion of their religion.

first, the media knows that blood and gore sells to us, regardless of political leanings. Thats why we see islamic terrorism so much.

second, you have got to admit that their is definitely a higher ratio of "bad guys" to "good guys" when it comes to islamists. That cannot be said of abortion clinic bombers. they are rare at best where the islamic radicals are blowing something up in the world almost daily.

third, the bulk of us are not muslim

fourth,
not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are currently muslim (or american enviro-terrorists! (j/k)

[jrockster21]

it's not hard for most people. there are some who have a problem separating those kinds of things, even the abortion clinic bombers. (which i had a post of yours in mind to quote from another thread, but you have edited it ;) )

I have never made a statement like the one in the title of this thread - that all Christians are abortion-clinic bombers. They are Christians, however, and shouldn't be ignored, just as these islamic people who bomb stuff shouldn't be ignored either. But to make a statement about many based on the actions of a few is ignorance, no matter how you slice it. :whoknows:

[JMS]

second, you have got to admit that their is definitely a higher ratio of "bad guys" to "good guys" when it comes to islamists.


I don't want to jump on your back because your opinion is not the exception but rather the norm. But please forgive me as I go ahead and get airborne. That's the kind of backwards misinformed ignorant opinion based argument which cause the rest of the world to shake their heads and condemn America.



Facts are that there are extremists on both sides of the Israeli /Palestinians/Arab argument. The vast majority of the innocents killed are done so by Israel not the Arabs. The populations of Arabs and Jews in the territory controlled by Israel are almost equivalent and the whack job radicals on both sides ( and they exist on both sides) do not define the population of either side.


How come the entire world understands that Argument, But sheltered Americans who pay for the vast majority of the killings in the territory of Israel don't understand their ignorance is adding to the problem and killings hundreds and thousands every year for decades.

[Sarge]

Perhaps because what Americans see is an Israel that tries to get along, an Israel that gives up "land for peace", an Israel that withdraws and still get rockets rained down on them for their trouble

That could possibly have something to do with it

[SnyderShrugged]

I don't want to jump on your back because your opinion is not the exception but rather the norm. But please forgive me as I go ahead and get airborne. That's the kind of backwards misinformed ignorant opinion based argument which cause the rest of the world to shake their heads and condemn America.



Facts are that there are extremists on both sides of the Israeli /Palestinians/Arab argument. The vast majority of the innocents killed are done so by Israel not the Arabs. The populations of Arabs and Jews in the territory controlled by Israel are almost equivalent and the whack job radicals on both sides ( and they exist on both sides) do not define the population of either side.


How come the entire world understands that Argument, But sheltered Americans who pay for the vast majority of the killings in the territory of Israel don't understand their ignorance is adding to the problem and killings hundreds and thousands every year for decades.






Fact:

There is a higher proportion of extremist muslims to non-extremist muslims, than the proportion of extremist christians to non-extremist christians.

This cant be debated.

I didnt say that they didnt have reasons to be extremists (even if I disagree with those reasons).

[Major Harris]

I have never made a statement like the one in the title of this thread - that all Christians are abortion-clinic bombers.

while it was nowhere near what this thread title says, it was easily taken that way.



T But to make a statement about many based on the actions of a few is ignorance, no matter how you slice it. :whoknows:


true.

[headexplode]

Perhaps because what Americans see is an Israel that tries to get along, an Israel that gives up "land for peace", an Israel that withdraws and still get rockets rained down on them for their trouble

That could possibly have something to do with it

Well, Israel has the rockets, supplied to them mostly by the US government.

And Israel didn't even exist until--what--late 1940s.

I say let them kill each other. It's hard to help people who already have it all figured out. My god say thees. My god say that. Boom boom we're all dead. At least in death they can finally figure out who was right.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Did Rachel Corrie win the Darwin Award for 2003? She should have.

[JMS]

Fact:

There is a higher proportion of extremist muslims to non-extremist muslims, than the proportion of extremist christians to non-extremist christians.

This cant be debated.

I didnt say that they didnt have reasons to be extremists (even if I disagree with those reasons).


Fact.. 5 million Jews in Israel.

Fact... 200 million Arabs and Persians neighboring Israel who have all been at war with Israel during it's modern history post 1947.

Fact the 5 million Israeli's account for 10 times the number of innocent deaths in the region and have for decades.

Fact... There are just as many modern whack job Jews contributing the the crisis in the middle east as their are Arabs. The fact that we give them weapons so they don't have to end themselves while they kill innocents doesn't mean they are any less whack job as they kill the vast majority of innocents..

Fact... More people have died in Christs name than any other man's name in history. Religous intolerance isn't isolated to any one religion.

Including
Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall, and Abir Aramin who I spoke about peviously..

[SnyderShrugged]

Fact.. 5 million Jews in Israel.

Fact... 200 million Arabs and Persians neighboring Israel who have all been at war with Israel during it's modern history post 1947.

Fact the 5 million Israeli's account for 10 times the number of innocent deaths in the region and have for decades.

Fact... There are just as many modern whack job Jews contributing the the crisis in the middle east as their are Arabs. The fact that we give them weapons so they don't have to end themselves while they kill innocents doesn't mean they are any less whack job as they kill the vast majority of innocents..

Including
Rachel Corrie, Tom Hurndall, and Abir Aramin who I spoke about peviously..





ummmm, havnt you expanded the scope and context of the original discussion just a tad?

we started here..
"Originally Posted by jrockster77
Why is it so hard to view these muslims as extremists, the same way abortion-clinic bombers are viewed? Or the guy who was protesting at soldier's funerals? I just don't get it.

I responded with...
"actually think there are many factors that make it difficult to view them as just an extreme portion of their religion.

first, the media knows that blood and gore sells to us, regardless of political leanings. Thats why we see islamic terrorism so much.

second, you have got to admit that their is definitely a higher ratio of "bad guys" to "good guys" when it comes to islamists. That cannot be said of abortion clinic bombers. they are rare at best where the islamic radicals are blowing something up in the world almost daily.

third, the bulk of us are not muslim

fourth,
not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are currently muslim (or american enviro-terrorists! (j/k)"



Now somehow that discussion has pulled in Jews, arabs, and persians?

They had no part of the original discussion and it's off scope for you to bring them into it.

calm down :2cents:

[chomerics]

Perhaps because what Americans see is an Israel that tries to get along, an Israel that gives up "land for peace", an Israel that withdraws and still get rockets rained down on them for their trouble

That could possibly have something to do with it

Or that Americans are to ignorant to understand the other side. . .wait, look who I am talking to. . .thanks again for proving his point Sarge. :doh:

[JMS]

Did Rachel Corrie win the Darwin Award for 2003? She should have.Did Medgar Evers, Did Martin Luther King? Did Gandhi? or a countless number of other great souls who knowingly placed their lives in danger to nonviolently fight prejudice, bigotry, injustice, and racism deserve premature deaths?



I put it to you that she, and her kind were always closer to God than you and all those who come from you. Me and mine too.



An interview with Rachel Corrie, The American peace activist Israel crushed to death with a bull dozer.

Youtube video link so those at work be careful of sound..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBPf29ZOWkg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBPf29ZOWkg)

http://www.catdestroyshomes.org/img/original/rach3.jpg

Your mocking her sacrifice just makes you and your argument look bad as your hatred is brought into the light and shone against the courage of this brave young woman.




One bulldozer, serial number 949623, began to work near the house of a physician who is a friend of ours, and in whose house Rachel and other activists often stayed. While we occupied the other structures directly west (the closest was less than 5 meters away and the furthest was less than 25 meters away), Rachel sat down in the pathway of the bulldozer. I was elevated about 2 meters above the ground, and had a clear view of the action happening about 20 meters away. Still wearing her fluorescent jacket, she sat down at least 15 meters in front of the bulldozer, and began waving her arms and shouting, just as activists had successfully done dozens of times that day. The bulldozer continued driving forward headed straight for Rachel. When it got so close that it was moving the earth beneath her, she climbed onto the pile of rubble being pushed by the bulldozer. She got so high onto it that she was at eye-level with the cab of the bulldozer. Her head and upper torso were above the bulldozer's blade, and the bulldozer driver and co-operator could clearly see her.



Despite this, he continued forward, which pulled her legs into the pile of rubble, and pulled her down out of view of the diver. If he'd stopped at this point, he may have only broken her legs, but he continued forward, which pulled her underneath the bulldozer. We ran towards him, and waved our arms and shouted, one activist with the megaphone. But the bulldozer driver continued forward, until Rachel was underneath the central section of the bulldozer. At this point, it was more than clear that she was nowhere but underneath the bulldozer, there was simply nowhere else she could have been, as she had not appeared on either side of the bulldozer, and could not have stayed in front of it that long without being crushed. Despite the obviousness of her position, the bulldozer began to reverse,

without lifting its blade, and drug the blade over her body again. He continued to reverse until he was on the boarder strip, about 100 meters away, and left her crushed body in the sand.
http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/032003_the_moments_before.htm (http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Palestine/032003_the_moments_before.htm)
http://www.rachelcorrie.org/racheladpic_files/image002.jpg

[Sarge]

Or that Americans are to ignorant to understand the other side. . .wait, look who I am talking to. . .thanks again for proving his point Sarge. :doh:

I understand your side perfectly ;)

[SnyderShrugged]

Or that Americans are to ignorant to understand the other side. . .wait, look who I am talking to. . .thanks again for proving his point Sarge. :doh:


what about the americans that dont want or need to understand that side, what if they simply want to not be blown up?

[chomerics]

what about the americans that dont want or need to understand that side, what if they simply want to not be blown up?

you NEED to understand the other side if you want to fix the problem, otherwise you end up just exacerbating it. . .

[JMS]

what about the americans that dont want or need to understand that side, what if they simply want to not be blown up?

I think that applies to both sides. Least there are folks on both sides who don't want to be blown up and want to live in peace. They should be our allies. I think We should be on the side of the innocents and on the side of peace, rather than supporting one group of bastards over the other group of bastards.

[chomerics]

I understand your side perfectly ;)

Sarge, you would not understand the other side if it was branded on your thigh.

[SnyderShrugged]

you NEED to understand the other side if you want to fix the problem, otherwise you end up just exacerbating it. . .


why is that a one way street then?

[chomerics]

I think that applies to both sides. Least there are folks on both sides who don't want to be blown up and want to live in peace. They should be our allies. I think We should be on the side of the innocents and on the side of peace, rather than supporting one group of bastards over the other group of bastards.

That is the bottom line. We should be on the side of peace, not choosing one side over another. . . that is why we are in the mess to begin with, and if more people would realize it, and stop listening to the sarges of the world, we may actually be able to bring stability to the region.

[Sarge]

Sarge, you would not understand the other side if it was branded on your thigh.

I understand that being the liberal you are, you have no moral compass to tell the difference between right and wrong.

You see no difference in the two sides in this arguement, even though in this case one side is a democracy and the other is a group of people somewhat displaced by your beloved UN.

Just like you can't see or think of anyone else in the world as "bad" because you lack a moral compass. This is one of the major problems with liberalism, the "We're no better than they" position.

In your world, we (The US, Bush included) are no better than a head of state nut job in Iran threatening to destroy Isreal. Because you know, he never really said he was going to wipe out the Jews :rolleyes:

We are no better than other nut jobs in the world because of our actions, at least to you.

Believe it or not, there is a thing known as "Right" and "Wrong", even though it doesn't appear to exist in ChommieWorld.

[Sarge]

Oh, and just for giggles, can anyone tell me the last ceasefire/peace/withdraw agreement Israel violated?

[JMS]

not all muslims are terrorists, but most terrorists are currently muslim (or american enviro-terrorists! (j/k)"


And you think it's out of scope in a thread about Palistinian terrorist act, in the face of such wrong headed generalities to note the big picture that in fact the vast majority of innocent people dieing in Israel and around Israel are killed by Israel and not Muslims.

That terrorism from a human depth charge is no more leathal than a cluster bomb used against towns, hellfire missiles used against appartment buildings or Apache helicopters used against civilian traffic.

Or is it just out of scope to disagree with you? to challenge your understanding of the conflict?



calm down :2cents:


I'm calm.

[LeesburgSkinFan]

Rachel Corrie has a face that looks like it got hit by a bulldozer! Oh wait...

[SnyderShrugged]

And you think it's out of scope in a thread about Palistinian terrorist act, in the face of such wrong headed generalities to note the big picture that in fact the vast majority of innocent people dieing in Israel and around Israel are killed by Israel and not Muslims.

That terrorism from a human depth charge is no more leathal than a cluster bomb used against towns, hellfire missiles used against appartment buildings or Apache helicopters used against civilian traffic.

Or is it just out of scope to disagree with you? to challenge your understanding of the conflict?



I'm calm.




OK champ, since you had to keep pushing. Please refer back to my first post in this thread. It was in response to a post that said why do we not view terrorists as an extremist element of islamic society like we view the abortion clinic bombers. I offerred an explanation as to why this view might be present.

You went off topic by bringing up 3 entities that had nothing to do with the abortion clinic comparrison (therefore went out of scope) by mentioning Jews, arabs, and persians.

get it now? :doh:

[JMS]

I understand that being the liberal you are, you have no moral compass to tell the difference between right and wrong.

I am interested in disecting your black and white, right and wrong argument when considering the middle east.


What good is a compass if it doesn't rotate on the dial as you change your orientation? What good is a compass if it always points forward regardeless of what direction you face?


You see no difference in the two sides in this argument, even though in this case one side is a democracy and the other is a group of people somewhat displaced by your beloved UN.

Actually Sarge the Palestinians are a Secular Democracy. They have been for about a decade now and the United States is one of the countries which has certified their elections.. Israel on the other hand, is a country founded upon and artificially maintained along religious grounds. That for every other country on the planet is the definition of a Theocracy even if they are modeled on a representative republic. excluding the messy religious freedom or race creed and color provisions.

( note the jewish religion spans race and color, so the pre-eminance of this religion built into the Israeli state does not fall into simple racial prejuditial models. )




We are no better than other nut jobs in the world because of our actions, at least to you. Believe it or not, there is a thing known as "Right" and "Wrong", even though it doesn't appear to exist in ChommieWorld.

No better than "Other nut jobs" "because of our actions"? The beauty of America isn't that All of the people get it right all of the time. The Beauty of America is that the majority of the people don't get it wrong the majority of the time. That is what makes us unique ( so far). That is what our constitution is about. And yes we should judge ourselves by our actions and the results of those actions have on innocent folks and not based on what the "other nut jobs" around the world are doing or think we should do.



Not to make light of your point. The Middle East is not a black and white situation. If any situation is more complex than a boolean argument it is the Middle East.

[Sarge]

Actually Sarge the Palestinians are a Secular Democracy. They have been for about a decade now and the United States is one of the countries which has certified their elections.. Israel on the other hand, is a country founded upon and artificially maintained along religious grounds. That for every other country on the planet is the definition of a Theocracy even if they are modeled on a representative republic. excluding the messy religious freedom or race creed and color provisions.[/color][/color]



A democracy? As ordained by Jimmy Carter? :laugh:

[JMS]

A democracy? As ordained by Jimmy Carter? :laugh:

Are you saying that Yasser Arafat was not elected to head the Palistinian Authority? Are you saying that Hamas did not win the last elections.

You find fault with them because of whom they elected, but the elections are public record.

[Sarge]

Are you saying that Yasser Arafat was not elected to head the Palistinian Authority? Are you saying that Hamas did not win the last elections.

You find fault with them because of whom they elected, but the elections are public record.

Oh, I have no doubt that Jimmy sanctioned the "elections", nor do I have doubt as to who was "elected".

The first problem people have here is assuming that "elections" held in Turd World countries are like elections held here. Although as I've pointed out, certain people and groups with no moral compass have, as of late, have had the inaccurate tendency to equate our elections to other banana republics because of the closeness of the 2000 election. Again, no moral compass

The second problem here is that the uneducated masses in the middle east have no concept of the outside world and/or the ramifications of "electing" the people that they elect. Case in point, Arafat, a reknown terrorist. Otherwise known to people with no moral compass as a "freedom fighter"

The background of these people alone makes it dificult to come to the table with them, either individually or as an "elected" head of state. And mind you, "elected" in the palistinian territories has a whole different meaning here as well.

THe fact that they also appear to have a hard time leaving behind their old ways (blowing up kids) when they become heads of state compounds the problem even further

[JMS]

Oh, I have no doubt that Jimmy sanctioned the "elections", nor do I have doubt as to who was "elected".
Good we settled that then. The Palistinians are a secular Democracy.


The first problem people have here is assuming that "elections" held in Turd World countries are like elections held here. Although as I've pointed out, certain people and groups with no moral compass have, as of late, have had the inaccurate tendency to equate our elections to other banana republics because of the closeness of the 2000 election. Again, no moral compass


"other banana republics?"



The second problem here is that the uneducated masses in the middle east have no concept of the outside world and/or the ramifications of "electing" the people that they elect. Case in point, Arafat, a reknown terrorist. Otherwise known to people with no moral compass as a "freedom fighter"


Is Sharon any less of a terrorist than Yasser? Sharon was deemed responsibile for two different atracities in Israeli courts. What direction does your moral compass point with Sharon?



The background of these people alone makes it dificult to come to the table with them, either individually or as an "elected" head of state. And mind you, "elected" in the palistinian territories has a whole different meaning here as well.


And yet Yasser did come to the table. Won a Nobel Peace Prize too along with his Israeli partners. Sharon never did.

Would it suprise you to know the Bush State Department did not classify Yasser as a terrorist as Israel had tanks posted around his compound?
As Israel issued order for it's snippers to "take him out" if they had a clear shot. ( State Department reports to congress every six months on international terrorim.)

The only thing that changed between the time Yasser was a guest at the white house and shook hands with the Israeli PM and the time Israel tried to kill him were the people across the table from him. ( Bush and Sharon).



The fact that they also appear to have a hard time leaving behind their old ways (blowing up kids) when they become heads of state compounds the problem even further

Lots of folks in that region have problems not blowing up kids and other innocents.

[Sarge]

Good we settled that then. The Palistinians are a secular Democracy.




According to Jimmy Carter. The same Jimmy Carter that said Chavez was "elected" democratically. The same Jimmy Carter that certified the bogus elections in Etheopia?


Would it suprise you to know the Bush State Department did not classify Yasser as a terrorist as Israel had tanks posted around his compound?

Link? I seem to recall Bush calling him an obstacle to peace



As Israel issued order for it's snippers to "take him out" if they had a clear shot. ( State Department reports to congress every six months on international terrorim.)

This is what you do with terrorist *******s. That's a usable example of moral comapss for you