Edwards' health care plan includes taxes

[Sarge]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070205/ap_on_el_pr/edwards2008_6



WASHINGTON - Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards wants to provide health care coverage for the 47 million people who currently lack it and reduce the cost of coverage for middle-class families.


The plan could cost up to $120 billion a year, and the candidate acknowledged it would require higher taxes.

"The bottom line is we're asking everybody to share in the responsibility of making health care work in this country. Employers, those who are in the medical insurance business, employees, the American people — everyone will have to contribute in order to make this work," the 2004 vice presidential nominee said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."

"Yes, we'll have to raise taxes. The only way you can pay for a health care plan that costs anywhere from $90 (billion) to $120 billion is there has to be a revenue source," the former North Carolina senator said.

Edwards said health care insurance premiums have risen 90 percent over the past decade.

"We want to make sure everybody's covered. We want to help middle-class families with the costs. We want to try to create competition that doesn't exist today," he said.

To accomplish all this, Edwards said he would expand Medicaid as well as a program that now provides coverage to 6 million people, mostly children. He would also provide federal health care subsidies. He said he wants employers to play a bigger role, either by offering coverage or buying into "health markets" that would include a government plan.


Edwards said he would free up money for health care coverage by abolishing President Bush's tax cuts for people who make more than $200,000 a year and by having the government collect more back taxes.

On the war in Iraq, Edwards sought to distinguish himself from one of the Democratic front-runners, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.

Edwards, who served on the Senate's intelligence committee, repeated earlier statements that his vote to authorize the use of force in Iraq was a mistake.

"My vote was wrong and I take responsibility for it," said Edwards.

Clinton, who also voted to authorize force, has said "there are no do-overs in life." She says Congress received bad information from the Bush administration going into the vote and she would have voted differently given what she knows now.

"If she believes that her vote was wrong, then yes, she should say so," Edwards said. "If she believes that her vote was right, then she should defend it."

[KingGibbs]

So where do you stand on this Sarge? I have no problem with paying more taxes into a program that is actually beneficial to this country. I would love to see my premium decrease and assist those who can't necessarily afford the healthcare that you and I are fortunate to have.

[Fergasun]

KingGibbs,
Do you really think it will work to your benefit?

Won't this end up being similar to college loans? We'll increase the ability of poor people to pay, so the demand will increase with the supply staying the same.... thus HIGHER prices.

[Destino]

What I fail to see in this plan is how exactly it will put downward pressure on the cost of health insurance in this country. More insurance (and thus more shared risk) will IMO increase the cost of health care. Insurance is applies upward pressure on prices because individual consumers don't feel the sting of having to pay out of pocket and that allows different members of the health care community to charge more.

I'm not opposed to national health care coverage. I think that in the end we largely end up paying for the uninsured anyway, as they tend to end up in the ER (because everyone gets sick) and they can't afford the frankly ridiculous costs incurred. What I want to see however is something that at least looks like it might apply downward pressure. Opening up the drug markets to foriegn companies and ending this absurd anti-free market system drug companies have bought for themselves with campaign contributions would be nice. Doing something about the lawsuits in the US that are driving the insurance plans of MD's and hospitals up every year. Something along those lines.

[KingGibbs]

KingGibbs,
Do you really think it will work to your benefit?

Won't this end up being similar to college loans? We'll increase the ability of poor people to pay, so the demand will increase with the supply staying the same.... thus HIGHER prices.

Affirmative action comes to mind. I'm not much on political debates, but people in this country get in an uproar when we are stuck in a status quo position. When changes are suggested people in this country have the same reaction. As rich as this country is there is no excuse for our healthcare to be in the current status it is.

But, to answer your question. The article state that this plan would LOWER my costs not raise it.

[Sarge]

So where do you stand on this Sarge? I have no problem with paying more taxes into a program that is actually beneficial to this country. I would love to see my premium decrease and assist those who can't necessarily afford the healthcare that you and I are fortunate to have.

What's the last government program you've seen that works?

The "contributions" thing takes me back to 92, when Klinton called his tax increases "contributions" during his campaign.

I definately have a problem paying more taxes for what will amount ot socialized medicine.

Hell, I'm just one of those uneducated, knuckle dragging military types, and I have health care. If you don't like yours or don't have any, my sugggestion is to either make more money or get a better job

[TheKurp]

"The bottom line is we're asking everybody to share in the responsibility of making health care work in this country. Employers, those who are in the medical insurance business, employees, the American people — everyone will have to contribute in order to make this work," the 2004 vice presidential nominee said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Bullsh_t! The people who consume the lion's share of the health care benefits due to their chosen lifestyles need to accept a larger responsibility for making health care work in this country.

Tax junk food. It's easy enough to determine the nutritional content of any given prepared food. Set content guidelines for simple carbohydrates, long-chain saturated fats, and trans fatty acids, and tax accordingly.

[KingGibbs]

Bullsh_t! The people who consume the lion's share of the health care benefits due to their chosen lifestyles need to accept a larger responsibility for making health care work in this country.

Tax junk food. It's easy enough to determine the nutritional content of any given prepared food. Set content guidelines for simple carbohydrates, long-chain saturated fats, and trans fatty acids, and tax accordingly.

That has been argued for years and I totally agree with you.

[Kilmer17]

Bullsh_t! The people who consume the lion's share of the health care benefits due to their chosen lifestyles need to accept a larger responsibility for making health care work in this country.

Tax junk food. It's easy enough to determine the nutritional content of any given prepared food. Set content guidelines for simple carbohydrates, long-chain saturated fats, and trans fatty acids, and tax accordingly.


:applause: :applause: :applause:

Also, we are going to have a National Health Care plan in the US eventually. We all better accept that fact and try to find the best one possible.

[Destino]

Bullsh_t! The people who consume the lion's share of the health care benefits due to their chosen lifestyles need to accept a larger responsibility for making health care work in this country.

Tax junk food. It's easy enough to determine the nutritional content of any given prepared food. Set content guidelines for simple carbohydrates, long-chain saturated fats, and trans fatty acids, and tax accordingly.

Why not tax those with a high risk of cancer due to family history? Heck why not tax those that play violent sports. Who is more prone to health risks vegitarians or meat eaters? Tax the one that is more.

[Sarge]

:applause: :applause: :applause:

Also, we are going to have a National Health Care plan in the US eventually. We all better accept that fact and try to find the best one possible.

Edwards already has one picked out for you

[Kilmer17]

Edwards already has one picked out for you

I'd be concerned if I thought Edwards had a chance of winning. But he doesnt.

[Burgold]

Sarge is right. The Republican method is so much better. Take the Great Wall of America for example, Republicans voted to build an anti immigration fence to stop illegals from coming over. Sounds good, right, but then said, we'll figure out how to pay for it down the road. Let the next Congress figure that part out. At least Edwards is up front. Republicans just spend like crazy and never have a plan for how to pay for anything other than getting deeper into debt. Let's triple spending and pay for our largess by cutting taxes and giving Congressional pay raises.

[Sarge]

I'd be concerned if I thought Edwards had a chance of winning. But he doesnt.

Don't count him out. Look what happened the last time the Dems put up a pretty boy

[Kilmer17]

Don't count him out. Look what happened the last time the Dems put up a pretty boy


You're right, another Ross Perot could come in and deliver the White House to the Dems again.

[Sarge]

Sarge is right. The Republican method is so much better. Take the Great Wall of America for example, Republicans voted to build an anti immigration fence to stop illegals from coming over. Sounds good, right, but then said, we'll figure out how to pay for it down the road. Let the next Congress figure that part out. At least Edwards is up front. Republicans just spend like crazy and never have a plan for how to pay for anything other than getting deeper into debt. Let's triple spending and pay for our largess by cutting taxes and giving Congressional pay raises.

I'm a proponent of making it on your own. Taking the responsiblity to do what it takes to get a good job that has things like health insurance.

Does the system need to be fixed? Yep. Insurance reform would be a good place to start.

But I find it funny that people who beeeotch about Republican spending want to go and start another bloated government entitlement program

[Burgold]

I think that there are two issues here. 1) Health care reform. I think everyone acknowledges that it needs to be fixed. If I can buy drugs made in Maryland cheaper by importing them from Canada, Mexico, Europe, etc. than buying them in Maryland something is messed up. 2) Paying for proposals. That's what I was noting. So, many politicians say... this is what I will do and leave the responsibility part, the how part alone. They don't talk about how they'll pay for things. Edwards is being upfront about how his plan works. I think that deserves credit. Any change in healthcare will cost the Americans one way or another. If the change only went after the insurers the insurers would pass on the cost to us, plus add a layer of profit. He should be commended for honesty unlike most of the politicians who promise the world and then either hide the costs or never plan to take on the issue in any regard.

[Sarge]

I think that there are two issues here. 1) Health care reform. I think everyone acknowledges that it needs to be fixed. If I can buy drugs made in Maryland cheaper by importing them from Canada, Mexico, Europe, etc. than buying them in Maryland something is messed up. 2) Paying for proposals. That's what I was noting. So, many politicians say... this is what I will do and leave the responsibility part, the how part alone. They don't talk about how they'll pay for things. Edwards is being upfront about how his plan works. I think that deserves credit. Any change in healthcare will cost the Americans one way or another. If the change only went after the insurers the insurers would pass on the cost to us, plus add a layer of profit. He should be commended for honesty unlike most of the politicians who promise the world and then either hide the costs or never plan to take on the issue in any regard.

I guess honesty has it's merits, but in this case it's going ot blow him out of the water.


You want to raise my taxes to pay for a handout? Count me out

[KingGibbs]

Why not tax those with a high risk of cancer due to family history? Heck why not tax those that play violent sports. Who is more prone to health risks vegitarians or meat eaters? Tax the one that is more.

Yeah, because cancer isn't hereditary and people eating junk food is a disease. That's a piss poor comparison.

[Sarge]

Man, listen to it in here

"Tax this"

"Tax that"

You sound just like Dems

[Burgold]

I guess honesty has it's merits, but in this case it's going ot blow him out of the water.


That's a very republican way of thinking. Then again, look how far evading the truth has gotten the Republicans!!! ;)

[TheKurp]

Why not tax those with a high risk of cancer due to family history?

Because that's not a lifestyle choice.


Heck why not tax those that play violent sports.

Why not? People who are ticketed with moving vehicle violations pay higher car insurance rates.



Who is more prone to health risks vegitarians or meat eaters? Tax the one that is more.

I don't know? Who is more prone to health risks; people who smoke one pack a day or people who smoke 3 packs a day? Which one pays more sin taxes?

[zoony]

Because that's not a lifestyle choice.



Why not? People who are ticketed with moving vehicle violations pay higher car insurance rates.



I don't know? Who is more prone to health risks; people who smoke one pack a day or people who smoke 3 packs a day? Which one pays more sin taxes?



Should we tax people under a lot of stress?

After all, its a "lifestyle choice"

....

[Burgold]

Should we tax people under a lot of stress?

After all, its a "lifestyle choice"

....

tax by mood ring. I love it. You can't get much more hippy than that!

[Zuck]

What's the last government program you've seen that works?

The "contributions" thing takes me back to 92, when Klinton called his tax increases "contributions" during his campaign.

I definately have a problem paying more taxes for what will amount ot socialized medicine.

Hell, I'm just one of those uneducated, knuckle dragging military types, and I have health care. If you don't like yours or don't have any, my sugggestion is to either make more money or get a better job


They could always take some of the money away from the military which has spent about 1 TRILLION since the whole Iraq thing started.

Last I heard tax payers have been paying for that.

[TheKurp]

Should we tax people under a lot of stress?

After all, its a "lifestyle choice"

....

I'm saying tax junk food. I can spell it S L O W E R if that's what it will take to get someone to address exactly what I've written.

[KingGibbs]

Should we tax people under a lot of stress?

After all, its a "lifestyle choice"

....

Yes, people having to work to support their family is a "lifestyle choice." Please.

[KingGibbs]

tax by mood ring. I love it. You can't get much more hippy than that!

Can you lend that ring to a few folks in this thread. :D

[zoony]

Yes, people having to work to support their family is a "lifestyle choice." Please.


Are you talking to Kurp, or me?

....

[DjTj]

Should we tax people under a lot of stress?

After all, its a "lifestyle choice"

....It's called income tax.

[rictus58]

I'm saying tax junk food. I can spell it S L O W E R if that's what it will take to get someone to address exactly what I've written.

Maryland "sort" of does this already. Most food isn't taxed. But potato chips, cookies and other snack foods are subject to tax.

[zoony]

I'm saying tax junk food. I can spell it S L O W E R if that's what it will take to get someone to address exactly what I've written.


So TheKurp tax plan is:

Junk Food... tax.
Cigarettes... tax.
Pro Athlete... tax. (b/c it is a choice)
Vegetarians... tax deduction
Meat Eaters... tax
Hi Stress Job... Still not sure. But maybe, maybe not.
Base-Jumpers... ???
Rock-Climbers... ???
Scuba-Divers... ???
Frequent Travelers (more succeptible to illness, and it is a 'choice') ... ???





Well looking at that, I for one will be sure to hand-write your name on the next ballot.

....

[SkinsHokieFan]

Tax junk food, give tax credits for people who go to the gym

As for insurance reform. Good grief, please <Begin Rant>

I am ardantley opposed to any form of national health care. However, when part of your job is to speak to major insurance comapnies on a daily basis, and you see how big of a cluster**** they are, I'd actually be in support of national health care just so these jokers go out of business

And thats exactly what they are, a big joke, with poor customer service, which is why we have such a cluster**** of paperwork and knuckle dragging going on

I'll give you just one example. To get a certain new procdure paid for, it requires me to fax on behalf of doctor's and patients over 100 pages of documentation per procedure. There is no way to electronically do this

What happens? Insurance companies have to store these absurd faxes. They also tend to lose thing, which slows the whole process down

You never know who you are speaking with, or who will actually be making the decision on weather or not you will get coverage for a procedure. Very frustrating

<End rant>

[zoony]

It's called income tax.


Police Officers who are first on the scene of a grizzly murder? Fire fighters who watch children burned alive?


How much do they make?



No, income tax isn't enough. I'm with TheKurp, we should put special taxes out there just for these people. [/sarcasm]

[KingGibbs]

Are you talking to Kurp, or me?

....

Oooooppps. I missed your sarcasm. Sorry. :D

[TheKurp]

So TheKurp tax plan is:

Junk Food... tax. Yes.

Cigarettes... tax. Already in place.

Pro Athlete... tax. (b/c it is a choice) People who are in high risk jobs already pay a higher health insurace premiums. They may not pay it directly, but it is covered in part or whole by employers. This isn't news.

Vegetarians... tax deduction Maybe, maybe not. Are they buying junk food?

Meat Eaters... tax See above answer for vegetarians.


Hi Stress Job... Still not sure. But maybe, maybe not. See above answer for vegetarians and meat eaters.

Base-Jumpers... ???
Rock-Climbers... ???
Scuba-Divers... ???
Frequent Travelers (more succeptible to illness, and it is a 'choice') ... ??? See above answer for high stress jobs, vegetarians, and meat eaters.






Well looking at that, I for one will be sure to hand-write your name on the next ballot.

....

Since you can't figure out my simple plan for taxing junk food, I'm not sure you could figure out how to hand-write my name into a ballot anyway.

[BlueTalon]

We need health care reform. We need tax reform. We need tort reform. Unfortunately for us, both Democrats and Republicans have royally mucked up these things, and also unfortunately for us, they really need to be solved in one move, because addressing these issues independently isn't going to get us anywhere.

We need to eliminate the malpractice lottery, which has raised malpractice insurance rates to the point where doctors have had to quit their practices or move to different states/countries. If we can put a lid on malpractice awards, that would go a long way toward reducing health care costs. (Imagine how much a new car would cost if every engineer in every automobile factory had to pay an extra $20,000 to $200,000 per year in insurance!)

We need health care plans that are both portable and designed to encourage minimal use of insurance. Whether that takes the form of catastrophic coverage only with minor costs out-of-pocket, or cash back for time without claims, or some other form, is a decision for insurance companies and their clients (in other words, let the market determine those choices, not some fat-assed politicians or judges). And if judges are going to mandate that we treat illegal aliens in our emergency rooms, fine -- lets also keep some Immigration officials on call, and deport those illegals after they received their "free" medical care.

And regarding taxes, I'm a big proponent of some sort of flat tax, though a national consumption tax wouldn't hurt my feelings, either. Having said that, I like Kurp's suggestion of an additional tax on fast foods. The only caveat is that all the proceeds from that tax need to go to the health care system. Just like all taxes on your phone bill need to go to improving the phone infrastructure in this country (more cell phone towers, etc.) and all the taxes on gasoline need to go toward improving the road infrastructure. That makes those taxes more like user fees and less like taxes, and I'm OK with that. Under our current system, those taxes get siphoned off into other areas, and that is just unacceptable, if our goal is to address these areas of need.

[capt1an chaos]

So where do you stand on this Sarge? I have no problem with paying more taxes into a program that is actually beneficial to this country. I would love to see my premium decrease and assist those who can't necessarily afford the healthcare that you and I are fortunate to have.

I agree with you 100%

[capt1an chaos]

Sarge says in reference to health care,"If you don't like yours or don't have any, my sugggestion is to either make more money or get a better job"[/QUOTE]

Boy that sounds easy doesnt it :doh:

[capt1an chaos]

They could always take some of the money away from the military which has spent about 1 TRILLION since the whole Iraq thing started.

Last I heard tax payers have been paying for that. :applause: :applause: :applause:

[Dan T.]

Sarge says in reference to health care,"If you don't like yours or don't have any, my sugggestion is to either make more money or get a better job"
Boy that sounds easy doesnt it :doh:


Besides, he already has government subsidized health care.

[BlueTalon]

Oh Dan, do you realize what you are saying? The military's "government subsidized health care" is Tri-Care. It is as cumbersome and unwieldy a system as you could design. If Hillary had had her way in the early years of the Clinton Presidency, the entire nation's health care system would look like Tri-Care. When I tell military people that, they cringe.

[Sarge]

They could always take some of the money away from the military which has spent about 1 TRILLION since the whole Iraq thing started.

Last I heard tax payers have been paying for that.

But you see, "Provide for the common defense" is written somewhere.

Where is that? Some paper somewhere.


But I don't recall "Provide for universal health care" written anywhere in that paper

[Zuck]

But you see, "Provide for the common defense" is written somewhere.

Where is that? Some paper somewhere.


But I don't recall "Provide for universal health care" written anywhere in that paper


Ahh, the old conservative argument. We spend too much but you can never spend too much on the military.


I think our military budget is more that the rest of the entire worlds budget put together.

I think you are being quite liberal with your "provide for the common defense".



And since when do conservatives care about what's written in the constitution anyways?

[BlueTalon]

And since when do conservatives care about what's written in the constitution anyways?
Hey, it's not conservatives that invent constitutional rights by invoking the "living document" doctrine! Abortion wouldn't be a "right" if liberals hadn't completely ignored the Constitution and arbitrarily ruled it was legal. Regardless of your personal stand on abortion, the process by which the right came into being was a distinctly liberal, and non-constitutional, phenomenon -- and it's one that has repeated itself many times.

[DCsportsfan53]

So where do you stand on this Sarge? I have no problem with paying more taxes into a program that is actually beneficial to this country. I would love to see my premium decrease and assist those who can't necessarily afford the healthcare that you and I are fortunate to have.

:applause:

Completely agree.


Tax junk food, give tax credits for people who go to the gym


Well, in that case, let's start breaking down the gym users as well. What about the body builder types? Excessive muscle mass puts extra stress on the heart in a similar fashion to excess fat, not to mention the increased potential for injury that comes with serious weight lifting. Maybe we should give deductions to the ones who just ride the impact free excercise bikes. Then we can have progessive tax increases added for treadmills (hard on the knees) and free weights and such.

You see how quickly that starts getting entirely ridiculous? The whole idea of taxing based on choices made in health is just insane. It would never even come close to working. ****, just the other day I heard cranberry juice is now possibly a cancer causing carcinogen. As if it isn't hard enough to break every little thing down as it is, nevermind how quantity of consumption plays into it, on top of that what is and isn't healthy is changing every freakin day. Completely unrealistic idea. I'll gladly pay more tax to insure that all my fellow Americans enjoy can have access to the healthcare they need. The self centered "get a better job" reply is easy and all but let's face it, there's always going to be a large number of people who are on the bottom of the pay scale and they deserve medical treatment as much as you or I. Again, I'll gladly pay extra tax to insure afforadable health care for ALL Americans.

[zoony]

See above answer for vegetarians.

See above answer for vegetarians and meat eaters.
See above answer for high stress jobs, vegetarians, and meat eaters.





I'm confused, which answer are you talking about? How about a direct answer. I like those best.





Since you can't figure out my simple plan for taxing junk food, I'm not sure you could figure out how to hand-write my name into a ballot anyway.


:laugh:

[SkinsHokieFan]

:applause:

Completely agree.



Well, in that case, let's start breaking down the gym users as well. What about the body builder types? Excessive muscle mass puts extra stress on the heart in a similar fashion to excess fat, not to mention the increased potential for injury that comes with serious weight lifting. Maybe we should give deductions to the ones who just ride the impact free excercise bikes. Then we can have progessive tax increases added for treadmills (hard on the knees) and free weights and such.

.

Any preventive care is far better then a sedentary lifestyle

Your argument is riddiculous

Pretty simple. If I care enough to actually do something about my health and prevent hundreds of ailments that I could potentially have, just by getting my ass to the gym 5 times a week, well I think I should get a tax credit on that 40.00 a month I pay

I also tell my insurance company this every single month with regards to my premium.


If you are a person who goes out and runs everyday you should have lower health care preimums. Simply comparing the heart rate of an active person to a sedintery person can determine who is in better shape

As I have said many times, I am absolutley no fan of insurance companies, and in particular to how they are run now and just how many hundreds of millions are wasted every year in administrative and paperwork cost. Simply forcing the medical industry to use electronic records would save taxpayers and citizens millions upon millions of dollars

If people want to see how a national health care system would work, and what kind of piss poor service you will get, just call 1-800-medicare. Find out things like the "medicare allowable" "ASP" "AWP" and coding. Then ask how in the hell they figure out how to reimburse for procedures and drugs

It is completely assinine

[Sarge]

Ahh, the old conservative argument. We spend too much but you can never spend too much on the military.


I think our military budget is more that the rest of the entire worlds budget put together.

I think you are being quite liberal with your "provide for the common defense".



And since when do conservatives care about what's written in the constitution anyways?

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?

[Zuck]

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?


Tell me why I should have to pay for someone else's reckless war mongering?

[Kilmer17]

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?


duh, because you can.

[Dan T.]

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?


Psst, Sarge, WE are paying for YOUR health care. Not saying that's wrong. Just that it is.

[Burgold]

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?

Why should you pay for somebody's education, whether on the GI bill or kindergarten through high school.

The answer is similar. Prevention. A well educated, a healthier society benefits us all. Short term thinking leads to long term problems. Emergency care. Surgeries. Critical care. All of 'em cost a whole lot more when health has reached that dangerous stage. Even cancer is relatively cheap if you catch it quick enough. Besides morality, treating conditions earlier saves us all money. Even more, hospitals already have to treat emergencies and wouldn't it be better for the sniffles to be treated by a local doc than tying up the emergency room?

[TheKurp]

=DCsportsfan53


Well, in that case, let's start breaking down the gym users as well. What about the body builder types? Excessive muscle mass puts extra stress on the heart in a similar fashion to excess fat,...

Really? Care to provide some links? Even one link?



.. not to mention the increased potential for injury that comes with serious weight lifting.

The increased potential for injury of course being on par with say, obesity?




Maybe we should give deductions to the ones who just ride the impact free excercise bikes. Then we can have progessive tax increases added for treadmills (hard on the knees) and free weights and such.

Maybe for this argument to have any validity you should compare health costs of sedentary people with those who participate in all types of exercise.



You see how quickly that starts getting entirely ridiculous? The whole idea of taxing based on choices made in health is just insane.

No, not really. My company pays for health club memberships. You know why? Because it's been demonstrated to lower their health care costs. Trust me, a company as large as the one I work for would not incur the cost of health club memberships for ALL its employees unless there was a financial payoff.



It would never even come close to working. ****, just the other day I heard cranberry juice is now possibly a cancer causing carcinogen. As if it isn't hard enough to break every little thing down as it is, nevermind how quantity of consumption plays into it, on top of that what is and isn't healthy is changing every freakin day.

It's very simple actually. If said food item contains more than X amount of bad fats and/or simple sugars as a percentage of the total nutrients, then X percentage is applied to the cost of the food as a "sin tax".



Completely unrealistic idea. I'll gladly pay more tax to insure that all my fellow Americans enjoy can have access to the healthcare they need.

The largest health epidemic facing the country today is obesity. Your willingness to pay more taxes to address the fallout from this epidemic is akin to funding the rebuilding of homes burned down by pyromaniacs - when restricting their access to matches would be a far saner and cheaper alternative.

[headexplode]

So tell me why I should have to pay for someone's else's health care?

Cos you got a big heart:kiss:

[Sarge]

Psst, Sarge, WE are paying for YOUR health care. Not saying that's wrong. Just that it is.


No, actually I pay for my health care. Now, back when I came in the promise was "and we'll take care of you and your family for the rest of your lives"

And ever since the 90's I've been paying a greater and greater portion. And they're still talking about increasing the premium again

[Sarge]

Why should you pay for somebody's education, whether on the GI bill or kindergarten through high school.

The answer is similar. Prevention. A well educated, a healthier society benefits us all. Short term thinking leads to long term problems. Emergency care. Surgeries. Critical care. All of 'em cost a whole lot more when health has reached that dangerous stage. Even cancer is relatively cheap if you catch it quick enough. Besides morality, treating conditions earlier saves us all money. Even more, hospitals already have to treat emergencies and wouldn't it be better for the sniffles to be treated by a local doc than tying up the emergency room?

Oh, so "morally" it's the right thing to do?

Well, for all of you with such big checkbooks, I'd suggest you cut the government a check to take care of all of these poor people

Or you could give up your tax refund check this year. That is, if you made enough to even pay taxes


Or in my case pay over what you'll owe Uncle Sugar.

[jbooma]

any form of national healthcare is going to raise taxes, the question is from what and who and can you get the big medical insurance and drug companies to buy in, that is the question if not everyone will fail

yes technology is they key in the future of healthcare but it is not cheap and for those that bash Bush the one thing he has done an amazing job is getting the healthcare companies to communicate better with technology, we have made tremendous strides the past 6 years

[zoony]

Oh, and BTW, as many of you that think we should have socialized medicine, it's not going to happen.

The Insurance companies and Pharmaceutical companies have way too much power.


Insurance companies have spent over $594 million dollars since 1998. On lobbying alone. Read that sentence again in case you missed it or it didn't properly sink in.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=51


Pharmaceutical companies have spent over $673 MILLION dollars since 1998.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=78



And you can bet they like things exactly the way they are. So keep debating about folks... cause its never gonna happen.

...

[zoony]

Compare that to say... agriculture, which has spent $14 million since 1998. And Agriculture is one of the leading industries in the country.

[Sarge]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough

[DCsportsfan53]

Oh, and BTW, as many of you that think we should have socialized medicine, it's not going to happen.

The Insurance companies and Pharmaceutical companies have way too much power.


Insurance companies have spent over $594 million dollars since 1998. On lobbying alone. Read that sentence again in case you missed it or it didn't properly sink in.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=51


Pharmaceutical companies have spent over $673 MILLION dollars since 1998.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=78



And you can bet they like things exactly the way they are. So keep debating about folks... cause its never gonna happen.

...


Well, I guess now we know one of the big reasons why drugs and premiums are so high. We're paying them to lobby the gov't so they can keep control of the industry and raping us with the prices. Excellent. :(

[DCsportsfan53]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough


Unfortunately, it's hard to make someone who doesn't give a flying **** about their fellow countrymen understand why they should care. I just can't understand the mindset that fellow Americans should just be allowed to die and not given the healthcare they need because they can't afford it. Call me crazy but something doesn't seem right about that.

[rictus58]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough

:fortune: The crystal ball tells me no response is going to be "good enough" to suit your tastes.

[Midnight Judges]

:fortune: The crystal ball tells me no response is going to be "good enough" to suit your tastes.

Some people don't read, they just type.

[zoony]

Oh, and BTW, as many of you that think we should have socialized medicine, it's not going to happen.

The Insurance companies and Pharmaceutical companies have way too much power.


Insurance companies have spent over $594 million dollars since 1998. On lobbying alone. Read that sentence again in case you missed it or it didn't properly sink in.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=51


Pharmaceutical companies have spent over $673 MILLION dollars since 1998.
http://www.publicintegrity.org/lobby/profile.aspx?act=industries&in=78



And you can bet they like things exactly the way they are. So keep debating about folks... cause its never gonna happen.

...




FYI... combined, that's just under $400,000 / day spent on lobbying.


Now back to the debate about how the Senator from NC is going to change all this :rolleyes:

[jbooma]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough

you do realize with the high costs today you are already paying for them :laugh: :laugh:

[BlueTalon]

Unfortunately, it's hard to make someone who doesn't give a flying **** about their fellow countrymen understand why they should care. I just can't understand the mindset that fellow Americans should just be allowed to die and not given the healthcare they need because they can't afford it. Call me crazy but something doesn't seem right about that.
Now hold on! I think you're jumping a bit to conclude that someone who serves or has served in the military "doesn't give a flying **** about their fellow countrymen."

[capt1an chaos]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough

If this kind of thought process gets into the white house once agian, expect this countries downward spiral to continue.

[Kilmer17]

We should all just give all of our money to the Govt and let them dole it out for us. That way we'd all have everything we want and need.

[capt1an chaos]

Now hold on! I think you're jumping a bit to conclude that someone who serves or has served in the military "doesn't give a flying **** about their fellow countrymen."

Thats not jumping at all, that is exactlly the way he is making it sound.

[Sarge]

you do realize with the high costs today you are already paying for them :laugh: :laugh:


Oh I know. that's why I say insurance reform would be a good place to start in controlling costs

[Sarge]

Unfortunately, it's hard to make someone who doesn't give a flying **** about their fellow countrymen understand why they should care. I just can't understand the mindset that fellow Americans should just be allowed to die and not given the healthcare they need because they can't afford it. Call me crazy but something doesn't seem right about that.


Some people don't read, they just type.


If this kind of thought process gets into the white house once agian, expect this countries downward spiral to continue.


Gee, how in the world did this country and the people ever live this long, with no socialized health insurance?

But never fear, I know you all are breaking out our checkbooks and writing checks as we speak :rolleyes:

[DjTj]

Cos you got a big heart:kiss:
We should all just give all of our money to the Govt and let them dole it out for us. That way we'd all have everything we want and need.Can we have a thread where sarcastic headexplode and sarcastic Kilmer17 argue with each other the whole time? We can just pick any random political topic. I think it would be even better if we gave headexplode some kind of Bush sig. :D

[capt1an chaos]

[QUOTE=Sarge]Gee, how in the world did this country and the people ever live this long, with no socialized health insurance?



The United States is behind-the-times, prejudiced, small-minded and down-right obstinate when it comes to healthcare for Americans.

While we stick with the most expensive, fragmented, inefficient and wasteful health care system in the world, other countries surpass the USA when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality and getting basic health care. In fact, the anchor around our necks is our unreasonable, discriminatory, one-sided and dare I say cunning private, for profit health insurance system. While we hold on to it for ideological or emotional reasons, it's dragging our country down and all of us with it.

Don't get me wrong. I love this country. I was born in the USA and so were my parents. But when I see politicians and brainwashed citizens continue to support the high-profit, high-waste and hardly regulated private health insurance industry at the expense of over 46 million people and our country's economic well-being, It turns my stomach.


"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present"
(Abraham Lincoln).

[DCsportsfan53]

The United States is behind-the-times, prejudiced, small-minded and down-right obstinate when it comes to healthcare for Americans.

While we stick with the most expensive, fragmented, inefficient and wasteful health care system in the world, other countries surpass the USA when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality and getting basic health care. In fact, the anchor around our necks is our unreasonable, discriminatory, one-sided and dare I say cunning private, for profit health insurance system. While we hold on to it for ideological or emotional reasons, it's dragging our country down and all of us with it.

Don't get me wrong. I love this country. I was born in the USA and so were my parents. But when I see politicians and brainwashed citizens continue to support the high-profit, high-waste and hardly regulated private health insurance industry at the expense of over 46 million people and our country's economic well-being, It turns my stomach.


"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present"
(Abraham Lincoln).

:applause:

Beautfiully said, I couldn't agree more.

[Kilmer17]

I'd like free gasoline please.

[Sarge]

[QUOTE=Sarge]Gee, how in the world did this country and the people ever live this long, with no socialized health insurance?



The United States is behind-the-times, prejudiced, small-minded and down-right obstinate when it comes to healthcare for Americans.

While we stick with the most expensive, fragmented, inefficient and wasteful health care system in the world, other countries surpass the USA when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality and getting basic health care. In fact, the anchor around our necks is our unreasonable, discriminatory, one-sided and dare I say cunning private, for profit health insurance system. While we hold on to it for ideological or emotional reasons, it's dragging our country down and all of us with it.

Don't get me wrong. I love this country. I was born in the USA and so were my parents. But when I see politicians and brainwashed citizens continue to support the high-profit, high-waste and hardly regulated private health insurance industry at the expense of over 46 million people and our country's economic well-being, It turns my stomach.


"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present"
(Abraham Lincoln).

Ever been overseas? Ever seen socialist medicine in action?

Trust me when I say there's a better way

[Sarge]

I'd like free gasoline please.

I'd like a mansion like John Edwards lives in. Can you all get that for me?

Oh, and free food, because the cost of vegetables in winter is reeeediculous and we should all eat our veggies you know :rolleyes:

[Kilmer17]

We already have health care for those that truly need it and cannot afford it.

Medicare/Medicaid are already law. And every indigent in the US knows they can go to an ER and get healthcare without paying a dime.

Why do I have to pay even MORE now for people who cant make it with all of the other assistance given by the govt.

Tell them to put down the twinkie, turn off the satellite tv and go get a f@%king job.

[SkinsHokieFan]

We already have health care for those that truly need it and cannot afford it.

Medicare/Medicaid are already law. And every indigent in the US knows they can go to an ER and get healthcare without paying a dime.

Why do I have to pay even MORE now for people who cant make it with all of the other assistance given by the govt.

Tell them to put down the twinkie, turn off the satellite tv and go get a f@%king job.


Or run on the track 3 times a week

[Sarge]

We already have health care for those that truly need it and cannot afford it.

Medicare/Medicaid are already law. And every indigent in the US knows they can go to an ER and get healthcare without paying a dime.

Why do I have to pay even MORE now for people who cant make it with all of the other assistance given by the govt.

Tell them to put down the twinkie, turn off the satellite tv and go get a f@%king job.

You are indeed a heartless bastard :laugh:

[BlueTalon]

The United States is behind-the-times, prejudiced, small-minded and down-right obstinate when it comes to healthcare for Americans.

While we stick with the most expensive, fragmented, inefficient and wasteful health care system in the world, other countries surpass the USA when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality and getting basic health care.
I dunno, you might want to ask the Canadians why they come down here for important surgeries...

[jbooma]

Or run on the track 3 times a week

actually there is better excercise then running, many who like to run and do it a lot do not understand how much that impact on their knees will hurt them down the road, look for a less stressfull excercise then concrete, if you want to run long distances uses treadmills much better for your joints for the long term

[Duncan]

"The bottom line is we're asking everybody to share in the responsibility of making health care work in this country. Employers, those who are in the medical insurance business, employees, the American people — everyone will have to contribute in order to make this work," the 2004 vice presidential nominee said Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press."

Translation - people that actually get up off the couch and work their tails off everyday will have to pay for the healthcare of those that don't.

[capt1an chaos]

We already have health care for those that truly need it and cannot afford it.

Medicare/Medicaid are already law. And every indigent in the US knows they can go to an ER and get healthcare without paying a dime.

Why do I have to pay even MORE now for people who cant make it with all of the other assistance given by the govt.

Tell them to put down the twinkie, turn off the satellite tv and go get a f@%king job.

I have a f@%king job and so does my wife, and the price we pay for healthcare is absurd,it brings our salaries down to a point where we have trouble paying our bills. Of course you wouldnt understand anything about that now would you?

And no we dont have healthcare for those that need it and cant afford it, take a read at this and then you will understand medicare and medicaid a little better.

ADA.org: Insurance: Medicare & Medicaid (http://www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp)Medicare and Medicaid can be confusing to many people. Here is a brief overview of both programs.
www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp

[Sarge]

I have a f@%king job and so does my wife, and the price we pay for healthcare is absurd,it brings our salaries down to a point where we have trouble paying our bills. Of course you wouldnt understand anything about that now would you?

And no we dont have healthcare for those that need it and cant afford it, take a read at this and then you will understand medicare and medicaid a little better.

ADA.org: Insurance: Medicare & Medicaid (http://www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp)Medicare and Medicaid can be confusing to many people. Here is a brief overview of both programs.
www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp

So are you saying because you're confused I have to help you pay your health care bills?

[capt1an chaos]

No sir, I am saying that kilmer17 is confused about what exactly medicare and medicaid's purpose is and who exactly qualifies for them

[capt1an chaos]

So are you saying because you're confused I have to help you pay your health care bills?

But..I have to help pay your healthcare bills, so why shouldnt you help pay mine?

[Zuck]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough


Do you still want to tell me why I'm supposed to pay for someone's reckless war mongering??

[jbooma]

I think where the politicians are missing the point is we need to bring all healthcare costs down, for everyone. A universal healthcare is a great thing, but very costly. What we need to do have is have more of a Regional healthcare plans, yes the drug and insurance companies have the upper hand but it is the state and local governments is where they can be impacted, not federal.

Kilmer I agree with the other poster that you may not truly understand exactly who benefits from medicade and medicare and what do they get.

[DCsportsfan53]

Do you still want to tell me why I'm supposed to pay for someone's reckless war mongering??


He's a military man. All war is good war. The money spent there doesn't count. Just so long as we're at war with someone, that's the important thing.

[Sarge]

Do you still want to tell me why I'm supposed to pay for someone's reckless war mongering??

Because........ again, providing for the common defense is mandated int eh Constitution. One of the few things it mandates that the government actually do.

I don't remember seeing "Provide for healthcare for all"

[Sarge]

He's a military man. All war is good war. The money spent there doesn't count. Just so long as we're at war with someone, that's the important thing.

No, actually war is not a good thing, but it is sometimes necessary

[Sarge]

But..I have to help pay your healthcare bills, so why shouldnt you help pay mine?

And as someone already said here, it's just like socialized medicine.

And I think 22 years of service to the country kinda already paid for that

[Zuck]

Because........ again, providing for the common defense is mandated int eh Constitution. One of the few things it mandates that the government actually do.

I don't remember seeing "Provide for healthcare for all"


"Providing for the common defense" is a little different than having a military budget that is greater than the rest of the entire worlds defense budget combined.


Just because you think war is the answer to practically every situation doesn't mean the rest of the country should foot the bill for that type of warped philosphy.


You know what percentage of the entire budget is taken up by the military?

Conservatives are always talking about cutting spending well the miliatary budget is a great place to start.

[capt1an chaos]

You can only spend our tax money once. If our tax dollars are spent on the military, they cannot be used to meet basic human needs. At a time when people in the U.S. suffer — from hunger, poor health care, insufficient day care, substandard housing, inadequate mass transportation, deficient education, meager pollution control, and an inefficient profit-oriented energy program — it is easy to see how money could be better spent.

Many argue that military spending creates jobs, but dollar-for-dollar the same amount of money creates nearly twice as many jobs in education or health care as in the military. Additionally, military-related jobs do not result in socially useful goods. Millions of people are underfed, unemployed and homeless while billions of dollars are spent to fuel, house and store weapons, tanks, planes and ships, and to recruit and train our youth in the ways of war. Skilled scientists and engineers are perfecting methods of destruction rather than developing products that improve the quality of life. In addition, tax payers end up paying again to clean up after the military — one of the worst polluters on the planet.


Military spending in 2005 ($ Billions, and percent of total) Country Dollars (billions) % of total Rank
Source: U.S. Military Spending vs. the World, Center for Arms Control and Non-Proliferation, February 6, 2006

United States -billion 420.7 percent of total 43% rank 1
China 62.5 6% 2
Russia 61.9 6% 3
United Kingdom 51.1 5% 4
Japan 44.7 4% 5
France 41.6 4% 6
Germany 30.2 3% 7
India 22 2% 8
Saudi Arabia 21.3 2% 9
South Korea 20.7 2% 10
Italy 17.2 2% 11
Australia 13.2 1% 12
Brazil 13.1 1% 13
Canada 10.9 1% 14
Turkey 9.8 1% 15
Israel* 9.7 1% 16
Netherlands 9.7 1% 17
Spain 8.8 1% 18
Taiwan 8.3 1% 19
Indonesia* 7.6 1% 20
Myanmar 6.9 1% 21
Ukraine* 6 1% 22
Singapore 5.6 1% 23
Sweden 5.6 1% 24
North Korea* 5.5 1% 25
Poland 5.2 0% 26
Iran 4.9 1% 27
Norway 4.7 0% 28
Greece* 4.5 0% 29
Kuwait 4.3 0% 30
Colombia* 3.9 0% 31
Switzerland 3.8 0% 32
Pakistan 3.7 0% 33
Vietnam 3.5 0% 34
Belgium 3.4 0% 35

I think that is a bit of over kill for common defense

[Sarge]

"Providing for the common defense" is a little different than having a military budget that is greater than the rest of the entire worlds defense budget combined.


Just because you think war is the answer to practically every situation doesn't mean the rest of the country should foot the bill for that type of warped philosphy.


You know what percentage of the entire budget is taken up by the military?

Conservatives are always talking about cutting spending well the miliatary budget is a great place to start.

That's what Bubba thought, and we're paying for it now

[Zuck]

we're paying for it now

Yep, one dead American soldier and countless Iraqi's at a time.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I have a f@%king job and so does my wife, and the price we pay for healthcare is absurd,it brings our salaries down to a point where we have trouble paying our bills. Of course you wouldnt understand anything about that now would you?

And no we dont have healthcare for those that need it and cant afford it, take a read at this and then you will understand medicare and medicaid a little better.

ADA.org: Insurance: Medicare & Medicaid (http://www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp)Medicare and Medicaid can be confusing to many people. Here is a brief overview of both programs.
www.ada.org/public/manage/insurance/medicare.asp


I don't think anyone is advocating the system being as it is today

I work in the healthcare industry, believe me I think its the biggest cluster**** ever

You have your big payers, you have policies, you have all sorts of hoops to jump through, you have coding, drugs, DME's, DRGs, RUVs, you have virtually no technology involved with tracking costs

Its a mess

Going to the federal gov't would be an even bigger cluster ****. Like I said, call 1-800-medicare and pretend to have some sort of problem. See how long it takes you to get 1) a live voice and 2) answers that make any sense

Then try your state medicaid

Then try your Medicare Part D carrier

[Sarge]

Yep, one dead American soldier and countless Iraqi's at a time.

Nope. That discussion is going on here

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3488383#post3488383

Anyone come up with an answer yet as to why I should pay your health care bill?

[SkinsHokieFan]

actually there is better excercise then running, many who like to run and do it a lot do not understand how much that impact on their knees will hurt them down the road, look for a less stressfull excercise then concrete, if you want to run long distances uses treadmills much better for your joints for the long term


Which is all better then sitting on your ass :silly:

That was the point

I don't care if you skip, hop, swim, cartwheel, get your damn heart rate up and make your heart stronger, keep your weight down and do some resistance training to maintain your muscles

Just by exercising 3 times a week and watching your diet you are saving yourself so much money and pain in the future

[rictus58]

Because........ again, providing for the common defense is mandated int eh Constitution. One of the few things it mandates that the government actually do.

I don't remember seeing "Provide for healthcare for all"

Can you point out where in the constitution that it states the Government will provide education for the citizens?

[Duncan]

Can you point out where in the constitution that it states the Government will provide education for the citizens?

It doesn't and would you argue the government has done a good job?

[rictus58]

It doesn't and would you argue the government has done a good job?

for the most part yes. A huge majority of the population of this country has been educated by public schools.
But lets not get this off topic. The preamble does state that it is the job of the Federal Government to "promote the general welfare". Doesn't health care fall under this category.
And Sarge, if you want to bring up what the constitution does and does not include, you might want to remember the track record of the POTUS and his apparent disdain for obeying the constitution.

[Sarge]

for the most part yes. A huge majority of the population of this country has been educated by public schools.
But lets not get this off topic. The preamble does state that it is the job of the Federal Government to "promote the general welfare". Doesn't health care fall under this category.
And Sarge, if you want to bring up what the constitution does and does not include, you might want to remember the track record of the POTUS and his apparent disdain for obeying the constitution.


Does the "General Welfare" mandate that everyone needs a house like Edwards?

Let me know when that's coming

[rictus58]

Does the "General Welfare" mandate that everyone needs a house like Edwards?

Let me know when that's coming

As soon as you get off your ass and get a job like Edwards.

[Sarge]

As soon as you get off your ass and get a job like Edwards.

I think the general welfare includes free beer for life

Where does it end?

[rictus58]

I think the general welfare includes free beer for life

Where does it end?
Wow. Great Argument. :rolleyes:

Apparently it ends where you want it to end.
Sarge, I can appreciate the fact you don't increased taxes. Quite frankly, I don't want an increase either, but I'd rather taxes go up for health care, then go up to make up for the tax breaks given to Oil Companies during an era of record profits.
I'd rather taxes be increased to help the people in this country then to help a country 1/2 the world away who didn't want us there to begin with.

[Sarge]

Wow. Great Argument. :rolleyes:

Apparently it ends where you want it to end.
Sarge, I can appreciate the fact you don't increased taxes. Quite frankly, I don't want an increase either, but I'd rather taxes go up for health care, then go up to make up for the tax breaks given to Oil Companies during an era of record profits.
I'd rather taxes be increased to help the people in this country then to help a country 1/2 the world away who didn't want us there to begin with.

I can appreciate that, but honestly, where does it end? We have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, WIC, free prescription drugs. The programs go on and on. THe government is a qa-billion dollars in debt, and people still want to add more

[jbooma]

I don't think anyone is advocating the system being as it is today

I work in the healthcare industry, believe me I think its the biggest cluster**** ever

You have your big payers, you have policies, you have all sorts of hoops to jump through, you have coding, drugs, DME's, DRGs, RUVs, you have virtually no technology involved with tracking costs

Its a mess

Going to the federal gov't would be an even bigger cluster ****. Like I said, call 1-800-medicare and pretend to have some sort of problem. See how long it takes you to get 1) a live voice and 2) answers that make any sense

Then try your state medicaid

Then try your Medicare Part D carrier

it has improved greatly the last 10 years though

now i agree we are spending way to much on iraq and the war what would be very interesting is to be able to say i want x % of my tax money to go this etc....

curious what the feedback on that would be

[rictus58]

I can appreciate that, but honestly, where does it end? We have Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Welfare, WIC, free prescription drugs. The programs go on and on. THe government is a qa-billion dollars in debt, and people still want to add more

Yes. The government IS in huge amounts of Debt, but I don't see you complaining when they are spending hundreds of billions of dollar on Iraq. Is that because you benefit from the increase in spending?

[Popeman38]

The United States is behind-the-times, prejudiced, small-minded and down-right obstinate when it comes to healthcare for Americans.
While we stick with the most expensive, fragmented, inefficient and wasteful health care system in the world, other countries surpass the USA when it comes to life expectancy, infant mortality and getting basic health care. In fact, the anchor around our necks is our unreasonable, discriminatory, one-sided and dare I say cunning private, for profit health insurance system. While we hold on to it for ideological or emotional reasons, it's dragging our country down and all of us with it.
Don't get me wrong. I love this country. I was born in the USA and so were my parents. But when I see politicians and brainwashed citizens continue to support the high-profit, high-waste and hardly regulated private health insurance industry at the expense of over 46 million people and our country's economic well-being, It turns my stomach.
"The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present"
(Abraham Lincoln).
:applause:

Beautfiully said, I couldn't agree more.Of course he couldn't have said it better, becayse he pasted it from: http://americanhealthcarereform.org/html/commentary.html#comment
And this site is run by:

I am a self-employed designer and native of Los Angeles, CA. I've held good-paying, responsible jobs for over 35 years. I'm a law-abiding, tax-paying, middle-class citizen who was always led to believe America's health care system is caring, compassionate and fair and that safety nets are in place if something bad happened to you (and the safety nets would be "safe").
I had to be treated at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center Emergency Room. The bills I received from Cedars-Sinai were outrageous - - over $4,000 which was way beyond reason for the treatment I received. The amount they charged me was simply shocking!
After taking Triple H. Food Processors to small claims court and not winning the case, I was sued by Designed Receivable Solutions, Cedar-Sinai collection agency and lost the case. I now owe over $6,000 because of interest and legal fees.
After my ordeal I was able to scrape up enough money to buy a health insurance policy. While I had it, I could not shake the insecurity of losing it due to having a slow month and not being able to afford the premium or if the insurance company arbitrarily cancels it for any reason they wish to. I, like millions of others, have been trained well to accept the insanity: Buy insurance (because you must have it) but don't dare use it or it could be cancelled! THIS is what our legislators have allowed insurance companies to do to American citizens.*quoted from Americanhealthcarereform.org So to sum it up, this guy lost his health insurance and got sick, went to the e-room and was charged >$4000, refused to pay, sued and lost, and had to pay >$6000. And now he is pissed because his health insurance costs so much.

Not a very credible source to be quoting is it? Sort of like asking a murder victims about the death penelty?

As for the original quote, please explain to me how far the US of A is behind the rest of the world? And if so, why do they all want to come to the US? Why aren't these 46 million leaving the US to seek affordable healthcare elswhere? Now, I am not advocating this, simply making a point. Healthcare needs to be reformed, but trust me, socialized healthcare would be a mess. Ask anyone who was insured by Tri-Care...

[Sarge]

Yes. The government IS in huge amounts of Debt, but I don't see you complaining when they are spending hundreds of billions of dollar on Iraq. Is that because you benefit from the increase in spending?


Yeah. My defense company is raking in HUGE profits. :rolleyes:

I won't mind a reform of the health care system. Lord knows it could use that. But the last thing we need in another bloated, slow-assed, bureacratic government program

[ChiefBigMeat]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Like I said, you all sit around dogging Republicans for spending and then want ot go out and add to government expeditures. And the only reason I've seen so far is it's because it's the "morally right thing to do"

Not good enough

Sarge, consider this: In the not-too-distant future, YOU could be subjected to a DNA test which shows you are at a higher-than-average risk for heart disease. Without socialized medicine you and your family are now S Out of luck and you are unemployable.

Do you want to live in a world that is just a DNA lotto?

[Kilmer17]

I own an insurance agency, I think Im pretty qualified to speak about health insurance, medicare, medicaid etc.

If you have a job that doesnt give you enough benefits, find a different job. If your portion costs too much, make choices in life and give up the cable tv and new car etc.

There are many reasons for the exploding cost of health insurance. But we should also examine the individuals responsibility in this mess as well.

Kurp does a great job explaning part of it, but here's the rest.

People are more willing to shell out big bucks for TVs, cable, new cars CAR INSURANCE, bigger houses, and on and on and on. And somewhere around the 50th most important thing in their lives, people list "health insurance".

Make that a priority and make people pay that first in the bill paying cycle, and all of a sudden it doesnt seem like it's that big of a burden.

We are not a cradle to grave entitlement society.

If you better, cheaper health insurance. Do it yourself. Im tired of supporting the weak.

[ChiefBigMeat]

I own an insurance agency.

You should now recuse yourself from this conversation because your living demands you defend the current system.

[Kilmer17]

You should now recuse yourself from this conversation because your living demands you defend the current system.


Much better to have less informed folks debate?

Health is sucha small portion of my business that losing it to a Natl Plan wont affect my bottom line more than the savings I will reap by not having to pay for my employees anymore.

[Popeman38]

You should now recuse yourself from this conversation because your living demands you defend the current system.And everyone that wants socialized healthcare should recuse themselves because their desires demand they advocate socialism.:rolleyes: When there is an argument there are two sides. Most anyone that has had govt provided healthcare is against universal healthcare. Does that mean we are not allowed to participate in the debate?

[Sarge]

Sarge, consider this: In the not-too-distant future, YOU could be subjected to a DNA test which shows you are at a higher-than-average risk for heart disease. Without socialized medicine you and your family are now S Out of luck and you are unemployable.

Do you want to live in a world that is just a DNA lotto?

:laugh:

You assume someone could actually get a DNA sample from me.

Good luck getting past the trip wire :laugh:

[Bounce]

I guess honesty has it's merits, but in this case it's going ot blow him out of the water.


You want to raise my taxes to pay for a handout? Count me out

Damn, and here I was so sure you were gonna vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what.

[Sarge]

Damn, and here I was so sure you were gonna vote for the Democratic candidate no matter what.

I voted for Jim Webb.

Jury is still out on that move

[rictus58]

People are more willing to shell out big bucks for TVs, cable, new cars CAR INSURANCE, bigger houses, and on and on and on. And somewhere around the 50th most important thing in their lives, people list "health insurance".


Having worked as a credit collector, I can attest to this and agree 100%. People are more will to have cable then to pay for basic necessities. When talking to delinquent customers, when I recommended getting rid of their $75/mo cable bill to pay their $60/mo credit card, you'd think I was asking them to kill their mother.

[Sarge]

Having worked as a credit collector, I can attest to this and agree 100%. People are more will to have cable then to pay for basic necessities. When talking to delinquent customers, when I recommended getting rid of their $75/mo cable bill to pay their $60/mo credit card, you'd think I was asking them to kill their mother.

And yet, you want me to pay for their health care :rolleyes:

[chomerics]

Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care? Something they are neither currently entitled to nor getting from the government at this time?

Says the man who has been sucking off the governments teet for the past 20 years. Everyone pays for YOUR health care Sarge, and everyone paid for YOUR salary, but you don't hear us complaining about it do ya?

The only joke is that you have the audacity to take from Uncle Sam, and tell everyone that you are paying for their health care, yet never acknowledging that the rest of America is paying for YOUR health care, and YOUR pension. . . why does this not surprise anyone. :doh:

[Sarge]

Says the man who has been sucking off the governments teet for the past 20 years. Everyone pays for YOUR health care Sarge, and everyone paid for YOUR salary, but you don't hear us complaining about it do ya?

Hey, guess what Mr government employee. While my ass was sitting in the desert, my pay stub still showed FICA, Medicaid, SS and Medicare deductions.

I 'm sure your pay stub says the same thing while you've been sitting on your ass at NASA, nice and safe and cozy

[jbooma]

Says the man who has been sucking off the governments teet for the past 20 years. Everyone pays for YOUR health care Sarge, and everyone paid for YOUR salary, but you don't hear us complaining about it do ya?

The only joke is that you have the audacity to take from Uncle Sam, and tell everyone that you are paying for their health care, yet never acknowledging that the rest of America is paying for YOUR health care, and YOUR pension. . . why does this not surprise anyone. :doh:

:notworthy: bingo

[Sarge]

The only joke is that you have the audacity to take from Uncle Sam, and tell everyone that you are paying for their health care, yet never acknowledging that the rest of America is paying for YOUR health care, and YOUR pension. . . why does this not surprise anyone. :doh:

So you'll be giving up your pension when you wake up and reach 20 years to pay for all this, right?

See, difference is, I actually work for a living

[jbooma]

So you'll be giving up your pension when you wake up and reach 20 years to pay for all this, right?

See, difference is, I actually work for a living

Sarge I hate to break it to you we all work, and Chom you can't complain about us paying for Sarge's pension when we pay for yours (that is if you work for NASA)

The point everyone is making is if we took x amount from the war funds and put it to healthcare then taxes would not have to rise, we are spending way to much on Iraq and defense right now and you can't disagree with that.

[rictus58]

See, difference is, I actually work for a living

so the people who cannot afford health insurance don't work?
That's quite a broad generalization.

[Sarge]

so the people who cannot afford health insurance don't work?
That's quite a broad generalization.

I was comparing what Chommie does (polishing a chair with his ass) to deploying to the desert

[jbooma]

I will add I also feel we need to abolish pensions, this is the reason why we have people just sitting in desks in the government, we need a better way to get these employees more active instead of waiting for a check. Sarge you complain that the poor sits around and waits for checks from the government, but so do many goverment workers, whats the difference.

Everyone should be accountable for their position plan and simple instead of being able to sit and sit and sit.

[rictus58]

I was comparing what Chommie does (polishing a chair with his ass) to deploying to the desert

as much time as you spend starting new threads to attack democrats, praise republicans and bash muslims, I find that hard to believe.

[ChiefBigMeat]

:laugh:

You assume someone could actually get a DNA sample from me.

Good luck getting past the trip wire :laugh:

What happens when it's required for all policies? You laugh this off like it's ridiculous but it's coming ... someone already posted the ~$550 million health insurance cos. have spent on lobbying since 2001 ... how much $ would a program like this make them?

I literally know people who are already considered "unemployable" because of medical problems in their past, and 'no' its not from any fault of their own, i.e. cancer.

It's distinctly American that each man has the opportunity to make for himself whatever kind of life he's willing to work for. This will surely come to an end without socialized health care, because the country will be divided into the genetic 'haves' and 'have-nots'

[Sarge]

as much time as you spend starting new threads to attack democrats, praise republicans and bash muslims, I find that hard to believe.


I multi-task :laugh:

[Sarge]

What happens when it's required for all policies? You laugh this off like it's ridiculous but it's coming ... someone already posted the ~$550 million health insurance cos. have spent on lobbying since 2001 ... how much $ would a program like this make them?

I literally know people who are already considered "unemployable" because of medical problems in their past, and 'no' its not from any fault of their own, i.e. cancer.

It's distinctly American that each man has the opportunity to make for himself whatever kind of life he's willing to work for. This will surely come to an end without socialized health care, because the country will be divided into the genetic 'haves' and 'have-nots'

Well then guess what? I'll just say "**** paying for insurance". I'll just go to the emergency room and have you pay for my healthcare ;)

[jbooma]

I multi-task :laugh:

pot meet kettle :laugh: :laugh:

[Popeman38]

I will add I also feel we need to abolish pensions, this is the reason why we have people just sitting in desks in the government, we need a better way to get these employees more active instead of waiting for a check. Sarge you complain that the poor sits around and waits for checks from the government, but so do many goverment workers, whats the difference.
Everyone should be accountable for their position plan and simple instead of being able to sit and sit and sit.For the most part, pensions have been done away with. Govt employees now have to use the Thrift Savings Plan, which is basically a safer-than-normal 401(k) plan. As for the military, anyone complaining about a retiree collecting benefits needs to rethink this issue. If you take away the benefits of serving in an all volunteer army, you get no volunteers. Military types make do with below average salaries, constant moves, and deployments. And again, anyone that has used Champs and Tri-Care know what a pain in the arse they are. And once you retire, if you live away from a VA, you have to drive hours to a hospital to get services.

[jbooma]

For the most part, pensions have been done away with. Govt employees now have to use the Thrift Savings Plan, which is basically a safer-than-normal 401(k) plan. As for the military, anyone complaining about a retiree collecting benefits needs to rethink this issue. If you take away the benefits of serving in an all volunteer army, you get no volunteers. Military types make do with below average salaries, constant moves, and deployments. And again, anyone that has used Champs and Tri-Care know what a pain in the arse they are. And once you retire, if you live away from a VA, you have to drive hours to a hospital to get services.

I agree with the military if you served this country then yes. Sarge does not count since he is on the interent all dam day :laugh: :laugh:

[chomerics]

Sarge I hate to break it to you we all work, and Chom you can't complain about us paying for Sarge's pension when we pay for yours (that is if you work for NASA)


I'm not the one telling everyone I am sick of paying for their salary, because I am part of the government as well. The reason it was brought up for Sarge, was because he said. . .


Somebody still want to tell me why I have to pay for someone else's health care?

While never acknowledging that both his pension AND health care are paid by Uncle Sam, and people don't biatch about him.

If I complained about my tax dollars going to his health care, then you would be correct, but since I am not complaining about it, and Sarge is, my point was valid. It shows hypocrisy, and I just wanted to point that out for people who are not aware, or who don't think of it. . .

[chomerics]

For the most part, pensions have been done away with. Govt employees now have to use the Thrift Savings Plan, which is basically a safer-than-normal 401(k) plan. As for the military, anyone complaining about a retiree collecting benefits needs to rethink this issue. If you take away the benefits of serving in an all volunteer army, you get no volunteers. Military types make do with below average salaries, constant moves, and deployments. And again, anyone that has used Champs and Tri-Care know what a pain in the arse they are. And once you retire, if you live away from a VA, you have to drive hours to a hospital to get services.

Pope, nobody is complaining about the military receiving benefits. . .what i said was it is kind of hypocritical to be complaining about people receiving government money when for your entire career you have been paid by government money.

[chomerics]

Hey, guess what Mr government employee. While my ass was sitting in the desert, my pay stub still showed FICA, Medicaid, SS and Medicare deductions.

I 'm sure your pay stub says the same thing while you've been sitting on your ass at NASA, nice and safe and cozy

Yet, I am not the one bitching about people receiving government money now am I Sarge. It is OK if they spend money on YOU, but not on other people. . .THAT was the point I was making. I'm not surprised you missed it . . . yet again :doh:

[jbooma]

I'm not the one telling everyone I am sick of paying for their salary, because I am part of the government as well. The reason it was brought up for Sarge, was because he said. . .



While never acknowledging that both his pension AND health care are paid by Uncle Sam, and people don't biatch about him.

If I complained about my tax dollars going to his health care, then you would be correct, but since I am not complaining about it, and Sarge is, my point was valid. It shows hypocrisy, and I just wanted to point that out for people who are not aware, or who don't think of it. . .

I have the answer we can set up a Pay-per-view with Chom vs Sarge and all the proceeds will go to establishing universal healthcare imagine how much money we would make :laugh: :laugh:

[Popeman38]

Pope, nobody is complaining about the military receiving benefits. . .what i said was it is kind of hypocritical to be complaining about people receiving government money when for your entire career you have been paid by government money.Apples to oranges, Chom. Employees/ military are compensated by the govt for a service rendered. Handing out $$ to pay for healthcare can not be compared. So yeah, you can comment on having to complete "x" to receive "y" benefits and then seeing a freeloader get the same benefits for doing nothing.

[Kilmer17]

Let's just nationalize all of our industries and give everyone the same Govt healthcare plan.

Problem solved.

[tizzod]

Edwards said health care insurance premiums have risen 90 percent over the past decade.



Interesting he would say this because I would think all of his lawsuits as a litigator sure helped that happen.

[Sarge]

Yet, I am not the one bitching about people receiving government money now am I Sarge. It is OK if they spend money on YOU, but not on other people. . .THAT was the point I was making. I'm not surprised you missed it . . . yet again :doh:

And I guess that in your trigger like leap to get another dig in at the military, you missed the part where I said I pay taxes as well. THe same FICA, Medicaid, Medicare taxes are taken out of my paycheck as are taken out of yours. I just see the deductions from places like the desert and Afghanistan, wheres you see them sitting at your computer

Maybe you and Arkin should team up for his next article :doh:

[chomerics]

And I guess that in your trigger like leap to get another dig in at the military, you missed the part where I said I pay taxes as well. THe same FICA, Medicaid, Medicare taxes are taken out of my paycheck as are taken out of yours. I just see the deductions from places like the desert and Afghanistan, wheres you see them sitting at your computer

You chose your career, so stop complaining about it, be happy you have a job and a pension.

I am sick and tired of hearing you ***** and complain about everyone else, while never acknowledging you will be sucking on Uncle Sams teet for the next 50 years of your life.

[Sarge]

You chose your career, so stop complaining about it, be happy you have a job and a pension.

I am sick and tired of hearing you ***** and complain about everyone else, while never acknowledging you will be sucking on Uncle Sams teet for the next 50 years of your life.

As will you. And what exactly is the return the country has gotten out of you anyway?

I simply do not want my taxes to go up MORE to pay for someone's health care that either will not take the initiative to better themsleves and thus get a better job or simply don't want to cancel their subscription to HBO for fear of missing the Sopranos :doh:

And I await word to all here that you are giving up your pension to put in a trust fund for these poor, wretched souls.

ANd if your mangina huts so bad from reading my posts, you could alwasy use YOUR government health care benefits to see the OBGYN