Klan growing, fed by anti-immigrant feelings, report says

[Destino]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/02/06/klan.report.ap/index.html

NEW YORK (AP) -- The Ku Klux Klan has rebounded by exploiting current hot-button issues, especially immigration, according to a new report released by the Anti-Defamation League.

The Klan, and other white supremacist groups like skinheads and neo-Nazis, grew significantly more active in the past year, holding more rallies, distributing leaflets and increasing their presence on the Internet -- much of it focused on stirring anti-immigrant sentiment, according to the report.

"Extremist groups are good at seizing on whatever the hot button is of the day and twisting the message to get new members," Deborah M. Lauter, ADL Civil Rights director, said Monday. "This one seems to be taking hold with more of mainstream America than we'd like to see." (Read the full ADL report)

"Klan groups have witnessed a surprising and troubling resurgence by exploiting fears of an immigration explosion, and the debate over immigration has, in turn, helped to fuel an increase in Klan activity, with new groups sprouting in parts of the country that have not seen much activity," Lauter said.


My favorite part of the article:


Historically, the Klan's focus had been to terrorize African-Americans -- through race riots, lynchings and other killings -- but it reached peak membership at more than 4 million in the 1920s by focusing on immigration.

Newcomers from Ireland and Germany were portrayed as Catholic usurpers invading the United States, taking jobs from native-born Americans and undermining national fabric, Levin said.

Said Potok: "It's remarkable to look back at the nativist sentiments toward Catholics -- it's very similar to what we're seeing with Mexicans now."

[luckydevil]

Shocked, I tell you.

[Midnight Judges]

"Those
who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." -George Santayana

[grhqofb5]

Damn, guess I can't be against illegal immigration anymore if it means I have to ally myself with that group. Thank goodness for CNN.

[Midnight Judges]

Damn, guess I can't be against illegal immigration anymore if it means I have to ally myself with that group. Thank goodness for CNN.

There is a difference between anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigant although some people are both. Which are you?

[Destino]

Damn, guess I can't be against illegal immigration anymore if it means I have to ally myself with that group. Thank goodness for CNN.

Yes, that's exactly what CNN is saying.

On a related note: I can immediately see why some people are at risk of having their jobs stolen by immigrants... or non-immigrants... or really whoever happens to show interest.

[grhqofb5]

There is a difference between anti-immigrant and anti-illegal immigant although some people are both. Which are you?

I believe in following the law as it is written. Whether I agree with our immigration policies in general, that's another question.

[Redskins Diehard]

I thought past generations of immigrants were greeted with open arms.

[DCsportsfan53]

Historically, the Klan's focus had been to terrorize African-Americans -- through race riots, lynchings and other killings -- but it reached peak membership at more than 4 million in the 1920s by focusing on immigration.

Newcomers from Ireland and Germany were portrayed as Catholic usurpers invading the United States, taking jobs from native-born Americans and undermining national fabric, Levin said.

Said Potok: "It's remarkable to look back at the nativist sentiments toward Catholics -- it's very similar to what we're seeing with Mexicans now."

:applause:

Been saying this for some time. Every generation has it's reason why it's "different" now but it's not.

[Thanos]

http://z.about.com/f/wiki/e/en/thumb/5/5b/Kkk1928.jpg/250px-Kkk1928.jpg

[luckydevil]

I thought past generations of immigrants were greeted with open arms.

That really isn't the case at all. There have always been groups and forces hostile to immigration.

[jbooma]

Yes, that's exactly what CNN is saying.

On a related note: I can immediately see why some people are at risk of having their jobs stolen by immigrants... or non-immigrants... or really whoever happens to show interest.

sorry but this is complete BS

the illegal immigrants are the ones taking the jobs that no one wanted, now all of a sudden americans want them, bs get off your ass and get a job i am sick and tired of people blaming everything except themselves when it comes to jobs

if half the americans who scream about immigrants had half the work ethic as them then maybe they wouldn't be so upset

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

That really isn't the case at all. There has always been groups and forces hostile to immigration.
Absolutley. Since the beginning of this country the immigration wave of the moment was treated like ****. From the Irish to the Chinese, from the Italians to the Germans. This is no different now. Same things are being said, same arguements are being made. Only difference is the nationality of the immigrants.

[Destino]

sorry but this is complete BS

the illegal immigrants are the ones taking the jobs that no one wanted, now all of a sudden americans want them, bs get off your ass and get a job i am sick and tired of people blaming everything except themselves when it comes to jobs

if half the americans who scream about immigrants had have the work ethic as them then maybe they wouldn't be so upset

Put another quarter in your sarcasm detector.

[RDSCNZ20]

so they are extremist but not terrorists?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

the illegal immigrants are the ones taking the jobs that no one wanted, now all of a sudden americans want them, bs get off your ass and get a job i am sick and tired of people blaming everything except themselves when it comes to jobs

if half the americans who scream about immigrants had have the work ethic as them then maybe they wouldn't be so upset

No, jbooma; the immigrants are taking the jobs that we're to ****ing stupid to force the people collecting unemployment and welfare checks to take or to starve to death. A huge number of those jobs would be filled very quickly with American citizens if the government would just stop robbing my paycheck to pay for these gutless, disgusting wastes of flesh and oxygen who make up the vast majority of long-term unemployment/welfare recipients.

These people don't have the work ethic because they know there's a nice, easy, cushy way around it.... The Government.

[Thanos]

The KKK are murdering terrotist and should be strung up in mass. A simple GOGGLE of lynching in the US can provide ample evidence.

[RDSCNZ20]

sorry but this is complete BS

the illegal immigrants are the ones taking the jobs that no one wanted, now all of a sudden americans want them, bs get off your ass and get a job i am sick and tired of people blaming everything except themselves when it comes to jobs

if half the americans who scream about immigrants had have the work ethic as them then maybe they wouldn't be so upset


amen, preach on!!!!

when i was in high school... at 16 i started working at McDzz, my girlfriend (white) at the time turned 16 and needed a job. asked her if she wanted a job with me.. and she laughed and said i don't do those jobs.. never forget those words....

[jbooma]

No, jbooma; the immigrants are taking the jobs that we're to ****ing stupid to force the people collecting unemployment and welfare checks to take or to starve to death. A huge number of those jobs would be filled very quickly with American citizens if the government would just stop robbing my paycheck to pay for these gutless, disgusting wastes of flesh and oxygen who make up the vast majority of long-term unemployment/welfare recipients.

These people don't have the work ethic because they know there's a nice, easy, cushy way around it.... The Government.

Mass wellfare is different from this, and I agree I am not a huge fan of it.

oh yeah and you are an immigrant :D

[jbooma]

Put another quarter in your sarcasm detector.

:laugh: :laugh: sorry my battery died :D

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Mass wellfare is different from this, and I agree I am not a huge fan of it.

Different but connected. Especially when the topic includes the idea that these immigrants are doing jobs 'Americans won't do'. What's going on is that these immigrants are doing jobs that Americans realize they can live an easier life off the government dole than doing themselves. Until we change the system to stop rewarding these lazy sacks of crap for being exactly that, the problem will continue, and businesses will continue to employ these aliens. Once we removed that gravy train for the lazy sacks of crap, I believe you'd see American citizens much more willing to do those many of those jobs than they are currently.


oh yeah and you are an immigrant.

No, actually I was born here, and the most recent immigrants in my family have been on this continent for almost a century. Other parts of my family have been here for over three hundred years. That doesn't quite fit my definition of 'immigrant'. If it does meet yours, we'll have to disagree.

[CrabR]

CNN is wrong

white supremacist groups are not growing in fact over the past 4 months have taken serious hits, many ofthe leaders have been arrested for sex related charges and the in fighting has destroyed the remaining members.

ther rallies rarely atttract more than 25-30 people tops, most are only 4-5 people. The media has to stop covering these morons

[Destino]

CNN is wrong

white supremacist groups are not growing in fact over the past 4 months have taken serious hits, many ofthe leaders have been arrested for sex related charges and the in fighting has destroyed the remaining members.

ther rallies rarely atttract more than 25-30 people tops, most are only 4-5 people. The media has to stop covering these morons

Convince me that you know better then the anti-defamation league. (they put out the report, CNN is just reporting it's findings)

[CrabR]

ss, disgusting wastes of flesh and oxygen who make up the vast majority of long-term unemployment/welfare recipients.


there are no long term unemployment benefits. But seasonal workers should not recieved them. School teachers and bus drivers shouldl bot be eiligable for unemployment benefits

[DixieFlatline]

:applause:

Been saying this for some time. Every generation has it's reason why it's "different" now but it's not.

The feelings may be the same, but the difference would be legal vs. illegal immigration.

[luckydevil]

The feelings may be the same, but the difference would be legal vs. illegal immigration.

Would you support liberalizing or relaxing current immigration laws?

[Kilmer17]

Convince me that you know better then the anti-defamation league. (they put out the report, CNN is just reporting it's findings)


I would wager that the ADL ALWAYS reports increases in Klan activity. Sort of the "if there are no criminals, we dont need cops" mentality.

I think that CNN is reporting what the ADL is saying as a hit piece against those opposing illegal immigrants and the programs associated with them.

[DixieFlatline]

Would you support liberalizing or relaxing current immigration laws?
I guess it depends on what you are suggesting. I think we should enforce the ones on the books and do more to ensure we have less illegal imigration. As much as I don't want an amnesty program, I think that some form of that is an eventuality. I could see increasing the number of legal immigrants per year once we have our ship in order or at least a plan for it.

[Ax]

I think the klan should be allowed to hold a rally whenever they want.

Having them all in one place makes it easier to spray the gasoline on them.
Plus, then you only need one match.

[McMetal]

Well, one difference between the Catholic and Mexican immigrant waves is that back then you didn't have to go to a grocery store and see the names of familiar products printed in Latin.

The lack of interest in assimilation is worse now than it ever has been.

[BURGUNDYBLEEDER]

I have a question to those that bring up the erroneous argument that illegal/legal (mainly Mexican) immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't do." Who do you think did these jobs 30 or 40 years ago before the current massive influx of illegal and/or low skilled immigration? Do you think machines did it? Did toilets go uncleaned? Did floors go unswept? Did burgers go unflipped?

[luckydevil]

Well, one difference between the Catholic and Mexican immigrant waves is that back then you didn't have to go to a grocery store and see the names of familiar products printed in Latin.

The lack of interest in assimilation is worse now than it ever has been.

Except that they are assimilating

http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=13836


But while nearly 50 million Americans spoke a language other than English at home in 2004—nearly one-fifth of all U.S. residents age 5 or older—what the debate misses is that today's immigrants are on average making the transition to speaking English more quickly than immigrants at any other time in U.S. history.




But hey spew 200 year old talking points. I wish anti-immigrant foes actually did their research. Or be more honest about how they really feel.

[SnyderShrugged]

Ive never really understood why we dont increase the immigration"quotas" that are in place to make it easier for the good guys to get in while allowing focused attention on the bad guys?

am I just too simple?

[DjTj]

Ive never really understood why we dont increase the immigration"quotas" that are in place to make it easier for the good guys to get in while allowing focused attention on the bad guys

am I just too simple?Great idea, but try getting people to vote for it...

[jbooma]

Ive never really understood why we dont increase the immigration"quotas" that are in place to make it easier for the good guys to get in while allowing focused attention on the bad guys?

am I just too simple?

:cheers:

[RVAbrendan]

Yeah, seeing a product with Bi-Lingual packaging really ruins my day :rolleyes:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Ive never really understood why we dont increase the immigration"quotas" that are in place to make it easier for the good guys to get in while allowing focused attention on the bad guys?

How about because the number of 'good guys' trying to get into the country is so ridiculously low that it's almost non-existant. At least by my definition.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Yeah, seeing a product with Bi-Lingual packaging really ruins my day :rolleyes:

I won't say it 'ruins my day', but I'll tell you that it does piss me off. Especially in those instances where ENGLISH is not the FIRST language on the packaging/product instructions.

[CrabR]

Convince me that you know better then the anti-defamation league. (they put out the report, CNN is just reporting it's findings)

I have been following them for years and years

half the stuff anti-defamation league reports are exaggerated, they are not objective at all

[jbooma]

I have a question to those that bring up the erroneous argument that illegal/legal (mainly Mexican) immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't do." Who do you think did these jobs 30 or 40 years ago before the current massive influx of illegal and/or low skilled immigration? Do you think machines did it? Did toilets go uncleaned? Did floors go unswept? Did burgers go unflipped?


umm that was like 30 to 40 years ago :)

[jbooma]

I won't say it 'ruins my day', but I'll tell you that it does piss me off. Especially in those instances where ENGLISH is not the FIRST language on the packaging/product instructions.


if I were you I would not go to Miami then, since there are parts where it feels you are in another country :)

there is nothing wrong with that since the majority there are hispanic and want to speak a language that is more familar to them and more expressive then the english language

[DjTj]

I have a question to those that bring up the erroneous argument that illegal/legal (mainly Mexican) immigrants do jobs that Americans "won't do." Who do you think did these jobs 30 or 40 years ago before the current massive influx of illegal and/or low skilled immigration? Do you think machines did it? Did toilets go uncleaned? Did floors go unswept? Did burgers go unflipped?40 to 50 years ago we had the bracero program, which allowed mexicans to come into the United States for temporary agricultural work.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/themes/story_51_5.html

30 to 40 years ago was when we passed the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1964, which was the beginning of the current wave of immigration.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Ive never really understood why we dont increase the immigration"quotas" that are in place to make it easier for the good guys to get in while allowing focused attention on the bad guys?

am I just too simple?
I've been saying this for awhile now. If you make it easier to immigrate here legally they will do it legally. That will greatly decrease the flow over the border under the cover of darkness, so to speak. If that happens then you KNOW whoever is sneaking in here is up to no good. That makes it easier for the BP to adequately secure our borders against the real bad guys, i.e. drug smugglers, terrorists, etc.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

if I were you I would not go to Miami then, since there are parts where it feels you are in another country :)

That's why I tend to avoid places like Miami, Los Angeles, etc... I have no interest in dealing with those sorts of places.


there is nothing wrong with that since the majority there are hispanic and want to speak a language that is more familar to them and more expressive then the english language

We'll have to disagree on whether that's Right or Wrong; but I think we've been over that before. This is the United States of America. Our national language SHOULD be English. It SHOULD be the only language allowed in print or speech inside these borders so far as I am concerned.

[BURGUNDYBLEEDER]

40 to 50 years ago we had the bracero program, which allowed mexicans to come into the United States for temporary agricultural work.

http://americanhistory.si.edu/onthemove/themes/story_51_5.html

30 to 40 years ago was when we passed the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1964, which was the beginning of the current wave of immigration.

So did the Mexican temporary agricultural workers sweep floor, flip burgers, and clean toilets?...I see what your point is I just don't think it directly or fully addressed my post.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

That's why I tend to avoid places like Miami, Los Angeles, etc... I have no interest in dealing with those sorts of places.



We'll have to disagree on whether that's Right or Wrong; but I think we've been over that before. This is the United States of America. Our national language SHOULD be English. It SHOULD be the only language allowed in print or speech inside these borders so far as I am concerned.
This thread is well on it's way to being "masshacked."

[jbooma]

That's why I tend to avoid places like Miami, Los Angeles, etc... I have no interest in dealing with those sorts of places.



We'll have to disagree on whether that's Right or Wrong; but I think we've been over that before. This is the United States of America. Our national language SHOULD be English. It SHOULD be the only language allowed in print or speech inside these borders so far as I am concerned.

Sorry but that is like saying we should have one religion, I hate to break it to you but forcing one language is then violating free speech, so do you advocate no free speech then, if that was the case then you want a socialist government

if you are into achitecture, history and exploring then you are missing out not going to miami and la, they are beautiful in their own way, and how could you not want to travel to Key West, got that place is amazing :cheers:

[BURGUNDYBLEEDER]

umm that was like 30 to 40 years ago :)

Ok so let us pretend for a second that these jobs were not being filled by immigrants. Would are work and public restrooms be over flowing with ****? Would McDonalds be forced to close?

Or do you think maybe, just maybe Americans would fill those jobs?

[jbooma]

Ok so let us pretend for a second that these jobs were not being filled by immigrants. Would are work and public restrooms be over flowing with ****? Would McDonalds be forced to close?

Or do you think maybe, just maybe Americans would fill those jobs?

actually places like McD's have programs to earn your green card so they are not all technical illegal and if there were not americans then there would not be as many McD's open :)

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Ok so let us pretend for a second that these jobs were not being filled by immigrants. Would are work and public restrooms be over flowing with ****? Would McDonalds be forced to close?

Or do you think maybe, just maybe Americans would fill those jobs?
I think the government would force prisoners to clean up the toilets and I think some McDonalds, along with many other businesses, would go out of business.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Sorry but that is like saying we should have one religion, I hate to break it to you but forcing one language is then violating free speech, so do you advocate no free speech then, if that was the case then you want a socialist government

I would disagree with pretty much every part of that set of statements, but that's for another time and place, lest we get too far off-topic.


if you are into achitecture, history and exploring then you are missing out not going to miami and la, they are beautiful in their own way, and how could you not want to travel to Key West, got that place is amazing :cheers:

How about because my interest in what I believe America should be is 1000% times more important to me than any interest in architecture, history, or anything else.

[McMetal]

We'll have to disagree on whether that's Right or Wrong; but I think we've been over that before. This is the United States of America. Our national language SHOULD be English. It SHOULD be the only language allowed in print or speech inside these borders so far as I am concerned.

EXACTLY.

It may not be a practical inconvenience having to run your eyes over bilingual labeling, but the message is clearly one of "Separate but equal".

If I move to Korea, I don't expect them to start spelling everything in English just because that's the language I'm most comfortable with. As a guest in that country, I would feel obligated to do my best to learn the native language and customs.

Everything should simply be in English here in the States. If you start including Spanish then you have to have French, German, Arabic, etc etc. Otherwise you're saying one minority group is more influential than another.

[BURGUNDYBLEEDER]

actually places like McD's have programs to earn your green card so they are not all technical illegal and if there were not americans then there would not be as many McD's open :)

My post that your above one is in response to does not contain the word "illegal."

[DjTj]

Ok so let us pretend for a second that these jobs were not being filled by immigrants. Would are work and public restrooms be over flowing with ****? Would McDonalds be forced to close?

Or do you think maybe, just maybe Americans would fill those jobs?Of course Americans would do the jobs ... although the wages might have to rise a little bit. I think it's a myth that the country would fall apart without immigrant labor, but they definitely make a lot of things more convenient and more affordable.

[aREDSKIN]

I would wager that the ADL ALWAYS reports increases in Klan activity. Sort of the "if there are no criminals, we dont need cops" mentality.

I think that CNN is reporting what the ADL is saying as a hit piece against those opposing illegal immigrants and the programs associated with them.

Lets see CNN, the ADL and illegal immigrants. Yep some very Democratic core constituency there.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

If I move to Korea, I don't expect them to start spelling everything in English just because that's the language I'm most comfortable with. As a guest in that country, I would feel obligated to do my best to learn the native language and customs.

You've hit the nail right on the head McMetal. It's part of the reason why I have less than no interest in traveling abroad. I only speak English and have no interest in learning any other language.

[Stophovr6]

What are these labels that have Spanish all over them? Are you guys buying tamale corn meal?

Also, most immigrants that have come to this country, if they were not already English speaking, still spoke their language for several generations. Children of immigrants are usually bilingual (I am) and their children may also become bilingual, if they have not completely assimilated and lost the language of their Grandparents. Assimilation isn't going to happen overnight. Of course, the higher the number and concentration, the longer it might take. But if they are to ever move up and truly live the American dream they are chasing, they will have to assimilate.

I don't even remember what this thread was originally about.

[Destino]

Ok so let us pretend for a second that these jobs were not being filled by immigrants. Would are work and public restrooms be over flowing with ****? Would McDonalds be forced to close?

Or do you think maybe, just maybe Americans would fill those jobs?

WHAT AMERICANS?!

Sorry but I see this idiocy all the time and this point is ignored. We are a nation that is near FULL EMPLOYMENT. Do you know what that means?! That means that pretty much everybody that wants to work can at the moment find a job. (though you might have to move away from the charming little town you grew up in) May not be your dream job, but the fact that I even had to mention that, says something about how great we have it.

So please please please tell just where the hell you are going to find more then 10 million Americans to fill these jobs? Where are these millions of unemployed Americans just waiting for immigration reforms because all those illegals came in and took those jobs. Where is this small city of ditch diggers, cleaning teams, and crop extraction specialists waiting for their chance?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

[SIZE=7]So please please please tell just where the hell you are going to find more then 10 million Americans to fill these jobs?

How about the Prison, Unemployment & Welfare Systems in this country. It's a basic concept.... NO FREE RIDES!!!! You work, or you starve. Very, Very Simple.

[Stophovr6]

EXACTLY.

It may not be a practical inconvenience having to run your eyes over bilingual labeling, but the message is clearly one of "Separate but equal".

If I move to Korea, I don't expect them to start spelling everything in English just because that's the language I'm most comfortable with. As a guest in that country, I would feel obligated to do my best to learn the native language and customs.

Everything should simply be in English here in the States. If you start including Spanish then you have to have French, German, Arabic, etc etc. Otherwise you're saying one minority group is more influential than another.

I don't see the parralel. You are one person moving to a country with no large community of Americans. You would have to assimilate or you probably wouldn't survive.

One mexican who moves into a border town isn't going to HAVE to speak English just to survive.

I agree that one SHOULD assimilate if they move to different country, but the set of circumstances here are different, and that has to be taken into account, not because it's right or wrong, but because that's how it is.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I don't see the parralel. You are one person moving to a country with no large community of Americans. You would have to assimilate or you probably wouldn't survive.

One mexican who moves into a border town isn't going to HAVE to speak English just to survive.

You are correct, unfortunately. Which is why I think the easiest way to fix the problem at this point is through the government. That's unfortunate, as it is actually society that should be doing it, but it's probably the truth. Simply refusing to allow the government to do business in any language other than English would go a long way to forcing a lot of these people to learn English.

[DixieFlatline]

We'll have to disagree on whether that's Right or Wrong; but I think we've been over that before. This is the United States of America. Our national language SHOULD be English. It SHOULD be the only language allowed in print or speech inside these borders so far as I am concerned.

I agree the national language should be English. If you want to live here, you should try to assimilate. When I lived or travelled abroad, I didn't expect to find English on documents even though you could easily speak it in the streets. I'm fine with businesses having bi-lingual packaging, etc., but I don't think anything should be mandated to be bi-lingual. Let businesses decide for themselves if the expense is worth the gain they may receive.

[BURGUNDYBLEEDER]

WHAT AMERICANS?!

Sorry but I see this idiocy all the time and this point is ignored. We are a nation that is near FULL EMPLOYMENT. Do you know what that means?! That means that pretty much everybody that wants to work can at the moment find a job. (though you might have to move away from the charming little town you grew up in) May not be your dream job, but the fact that I even had to mention that, says something about how great we have it.

So please please please tell just where the hell you are going to find more then 10 million Americans to fill these jobs? Where are these millions of unemployed Americans just waiting for immigration reforms because all those illegals came in and took those jobs. Where is this small city of ditch diggers, cleaning teams, and crop extraction specialists waiting for their chance?

I was an economics major and I know the definition of unemployment and full employment and lived my first 22 years other than college in NC in Hyattsville which has rarely been called a "charming little town."

That "charming little town" I grew up in sounds like a nice place sorta like Silver Town from Joe Dirt.

[RVAbrendan]

I agree the national language should be English. If you want to live here, you should try to assimilate. When I lived or travelled abroad, I didn't expect to find English on documents even though you could easily speak it in the streets. I'm fine with businesses having bi-lingual packaging, etc., but I don't think anything should be mandated to be bi-lingual. Let businesses decide for themselves if the expense is worth the gain they may receive.

I see where Mass is coming from, but I find it is probably just more of a convenience that there is bi-lingual packaging in places with the population being a minority.

I've studied Spanish for years, so if I were to move to Spain, I could get by just fine. However, if I lived in a town in Spain with other Americans, it would be a nice gesture to have some signs product labels in English, just because I'm more comfortable with it. Just because I'd prefer my native language doesn't mean I'm not making an effort to learn the national language.

And I'm probably just ignorant, but I have never seen a product with packaging in another language in a grocery store unless it's in an international aisle, which I understand.

[zoony]

The area where I live is almost completely taken over by Russian immigrants. They're everywhere.

Other towns I travel to frequently such as Cleveland OH and Destin FL are the same. One out of every 10 people you encounter has a Russian accent. In places like Destin and parts of Cleveland, I would put that at 1 out of 3. Seriously... there must be hundreds of thousands of them in the greater Cleveland area.


Why is there no outrage among the anti-immigration crowd about Russians?

I'd be curious to see some statistics. But sometimes I think to myself that a lot of this really is just racism in disguise. The white Russians with their hot-chicks and sexy accents are fine. The brown Mexicans are not.

I'm not painting everyone with that brush, but I think it plays into it in many cases.

.....

[KAOSkins]

I live on the border and travel to Mexico all the time. In their border towns you can use dollars and most the shop keepers and all the bartenders speak english. It's just good business. I don't have problems with english being our official language, but as was already mentioned business men on our side should be FREE to operate as they see fit. You of course are FREE to not frequent their establishments if you have a problem with that.

[Destino]

I was an economics major and I know the definition of unemployment and full employment and lived my first 22 years other than college in NC in Hyattsville which has rarely been called a "charming little town."

That "charming little town" I grew up in sounds like a nice place sorta like Silver Town from Joe Dirt.

Then answer the question. Should be simple for an economics major. In fact if you do understand economics then you should understand exactly why the government has refused to stop illegal immigration.

[Destino]

Can I ask when exactly America has ever stood for this nonsense of no other languages, no other cultures, etc etc? That idea seems entirely anti-american.

- Have you ever wondered how a nation that these "patriots" claim to represent managed to make it this far with out even having a national language? I mean think about it. If people like Mass and Sarge ran the show we would. We don't. Why? Simple, because that crap is not what America has ever been about.

- Have you ever wondered why every major city (many of them dating back into our nations earliest history) all have ethnic areas. China town, little italy, etc etc? You think city planners put them there in advance? They are there because these ethnic communities that are suddenly the source of our impending doom... have always been a part of this country.

This nation has never been what these "patriots" like Savage and company claim it to be. They've always been on the wrong side of history and hopefully they will continue to be.

[CrabR]

Can I ask when exactly America has ever stood for this nonsense of no other languages .

what language was the Declaration of Independence & constitution written IN ? did the founding fathers also make copies in Spanish, Vietnamese, Arabic etc ? I don't think so.

Just a few short years ago immigrants made their children speak English in the house so they could learn it and assimilate into the American society. Many people retain their culture but they need to speak the native language


Can you imagine being on the battle field and you company all speak different languagesgauge

[DixieFlatline]

And I'm probably just ignorant, but I have never seen a product with packaging in another language in a grocery store unless it's in an international aisle, which I understand.

I actually haven't seen too much either. I guess I was mostly thinking of government mandates for bi-lingual instructions on signs, documents, etc.

[Destino]

what language was the Declaration of Independence & constitution written IN ? did the founding fathers also make copies in Spanish, Vietnamese, Arabic etc ? I don't think so.

Just a few short years ago immigrants made their children speak English in the house so they could learn it and assimilate into the American society. Many people retain their culture but they need to speak the native language


Can you imagine being on the battle field and you company all speak different languagesgauge
I have seen some very weak points made in these debates but yours takes the cake. Yes the founding documents of the land were written in English. They were written in one language at a time when any respectable man knew he was to speak at least two or be looked down upon. Do we have that same attitude today?

Also your point about the children of immigrants is absurd. Doesn't matter what you speak in the house because when you leave it, you speak English. This is why you very often find the children of immigrants to be completely fluent in both languages. Have you actually met a child that has been in school for more then 3 years that can't speak English?! These kids have the greatest advantage of all as they tend to fully master two languages in ways taking classes later in life can never provide you.

No - I can't imagine a battefield where everyone is speaking different languages. I can't imagine pink tanks pulled into battle by golden horses either. Both are equally as relevent to this discussion.

Let me ask you something, how many languages do you speak? I find that the people demanding people speak English quickly tend to be monolingual.

[KAOSkins]

Let me ask you something, how many languages do you speak? I find that the people demanding people speak English quickly tend to be monolingual.


Zing

[Popeman38]

INo - I can't imagine a battefield where everyone is speaking different languages. I can't imagine pink tanks pulled into battle by golden horses either. Both are equally as relevent to this discussion.Although I agree with most of your points in this thread, you are wrong on this one. The language barrier in the military is a very real problem. There are people being promoted to leadership positions that can barely speak English. There needs to be a national language, to set the common denominator. If everyone can speak a base language there is no communication barrier. I also think that schools should be required to teach children 2 foreign languages before they graduate (and I mean fluent, almost to native speaker level). That would place America on par competitively in global commerce.

[Henry]

Well, one difference between the Catholic and Mexican immigrant waves is that back then you didn't have to go to a grocery store and see the names of familiar products printed in Latin.

Sure you did, only it was Italian and not Spanish. Or it was Hebrew. Or German.

Besides, those immigrants of 150-100 years ago were trying to convert everyone to Catholicism, which is far worse.


The lack of interest in assimilation is worse now than it ever has been.

Upon what, exactly, are you basing this opinion?

[grhqofb5]

I find that the people demanding people speak English quickly tend to be monolingual.

In Italy we refer to them as the "Unoliguals."

[McMetal]

Upon what, exactly, are you basing this opinion?

How much time have you got?

It's insidious how this stuff creeps up. One morning you wake up and have to choose English or Spanish when calling the cable company. And then you have to sift through a sea of Spanish language channels looking for Sports talk on the radio driving to work. At lunch the guy working the register at Wendy's can barely speak English and doesn't understand when you try to explain he gave you the wrong change. And so on.

Look, I understand the inevitable mix of language and cultures in border towns. But I live in Richmond, VA! Richmond has a rich diverse community of blacks, asians, eastern europeans, etc and has for many, many years. But in the past few years there has been a Spanish language explosion here that really seems to be less celebratory than exclusionary.

I'm all for the melting pot and legal immigration. But I don't want to live someplace with a split cultural identity. Melting implies blending, and I just don't see how pandering to the Spanish language immigrants while ignoring all the other immigrant groups is helpful in any way. Everyone should be encouraged to learn the language and how to function in our society.

Is it really fair to the French and German speaking immigrants that we seem to bend over backwards so much to embrace the Spanish speaking immigrants? The burden is put on them to learn the language, so why should the same burden not be extended to the Spanish speaking community? Why do they need their own radio stations, grocery stores, etc?

Separation is not conducive to equality, IMO.

[dfitzo53]

This seems like a good place to get something off my chest. Our great country should not under any circumstances have a state named after the source of all of our problems, Mexico.

Here's a list of names I'm going to propose to New Mexico's governor. If he doesn't select one, I would like to ask all of you for your help in bringing this to the attention of your respective senators/representatives.

Patriotville
New America
Brown-Free Zone
Freedomland
Freedom Fries
Axis of Good
South Colorado

[Destino]

McMetal - Your posts strike me as dishonest. You start off with the usual: omg I have to hit 1 for English, this is an outrage crap. Then you try to craft a civil rights debate to justify yourself.

It's actually really simple. If you own a store that sells grey widgets. Everyone loves grey widgets. One day one guy asks you for a pink widget. Being that these things only come in large packages you don't order any pink widgets because one guy doesn't want the entire order. If however you notice a large amount of customers that want pink widgets, enough to sell an entire order and more... you order some friggin pink widgets.

That's how the language thing works. The US has a very large hispanic population, the size of which justifies businesses investing in some level of language assistance. If there was a comparable French community you'd find the same thing. It's not seperate but equal or any other such civil rights conflict. It's actually very simple: it's marketing and customer service.

Also you claim to want people to learn the language. Just what the hell do you think the kid at Wendy's in the morning is trying to do? Do you have the balls to get a job directly speaking to people with whom you have trouble communicating with that get pissy with you about it? That kid is out there trying to become an American. He's not hiding in some ethnic neighborhood speaking Spanish - he's right in front of you working for a paycheck while having a severe communications disadvantage but giving it a go all the same.

[Destino]

This seems like a good place to get something off my chest. Our great country should not under any circumstances have a state named after the source of all of our problems, Mexico.

Here's a list of names I'm going to propose to New Mexico's governor. If he doesn't select one, I would like to ask all of you for your help in bringing this to the attention of your respective senators/representatives.

Patriotville
New America
Brown-Free Zone
Freedomland
Freedom Fries
Axis of Good
South Colorado

Hannityville
New Jerusalem
Limbaughlina
Reagan
South Washington

[Henry]

McMetal, you didn't answer my question. I know there are options on the phone and Spanish channels. My question was what evidence do you have that suggests those cultural reflections are more pronounced than they were 100 years ago?

[Midnight Judges]

If someone doesn't want to assimilate, that is their right. If you don't think they have that right, then you are a commie bastard. :mad:

[jbooma]

what language was the Declaration of Independence & constitution written IN ? did the founding fathers also make copies in Spanish, Vietnamese, Arabic etc ? I don't think so.

Just a few short years ago immigrants made their children speak English in the house so they could learn it and assimilate into the American society. Many people retain their culture but they need to speak the native language


Can you imagine being on the battle field and you company all speak different languagesgauge

oh my you do know you can change this post, at least for your sake i would

[jbooma]

Look, I understand the inevitable mix of language and cultures in border towns. But I live in Richmond, VA! Richmond has a rich diverse community of blacks, asians, eastern europeans, etc and has for many, many years. But in the past few years there has been a Spanish language explosion here that really seems to be less celebratory than exclusionary. .

This explains a lot, sorry but Richmond is far from diverse, heck when I go there a lot I feel that many do believe the war is still going on (cival war).

When you talk about diversity it means the ability to walk into a neighborhood and being of a different ethnic group and not getting the stares of death. To me the DC area is one of the most diverse areas in the nation. When I graduated HS there were 55 different nationalaties in my class alone, and we all got along.

I will also add not all the hispanics are illegal.

[Sisyphus]

McMetal - Your posts strike me as dishonest. You start off with the usual: omg I have to hit 1 for English, this is an outrage crap.

Maybe there's a business opportunity here. Start a cable or phone company where they only serve customers who communicate in English. Granted they will have to charge their customers more, but it seems there are plenty of people here who would gladly pay the premium so that on the rare occasion they have to dial customer support they don't have to press 1, and can get straight on with listening to the automated menu options in English.

I don't want the Spanish language channels on my cable; but I also don't want the shopping channels, the religious channels, the golf channel, or now that my kids are older the kids-oriented channels. But I understand many customers of the cable company do and their bills help reduce the cost to me of the channels I do want.

[Midnight Judges]

Maybe there's a business opportunity here. Start a cable or phone company where they only serve customers who communicate in English. Granted they will have to charge their customers more, but it seems there are plenty of people here who would gladly pay the premium so that on the rare occasion they have to dial customer support they don't have to press 1, and can get straight on with listening to the automated menu options in English.

.

How would they know what language you were speaking unless they listened to your phone calls? You do realize it's not the phone company that makes you press 1 for English, it's whomever you are dealing with.

[Sisyphus]

How would they know what language you were speaking unless they listened to your phone calls? You do realize it's not the phone company that makes you press 1 for English, it's whomever you are dealing with.

erm ... I meant the customer service department of a phone company as an example. Perhaps if I'd said bank, airline etc it would have been clearer, but if it makes you feel good to think that I'm an idiot, that's OK. :D

(Not so much a LOL, but a LQTM)

[DjTj]

Maybe there's a business opportunity here. Start a cable or phone company where they only serve customers who communicate in English. Granted they will have to charge their customers more, but it seems there are plenty of people here who would gladly pay the premium so that on the rare occasion they have to dial customer support they don't have to press 1, and can get straight on with listening to the automated menu options in English. :laugh: "Welcome to XYZ company ... you don't have to press 1 for English because we refuse to bend over backwards for non-English speaking customers. Please listen to the following options ..."

[RVAbrendan]

Also you claim to want people to learn the language. Just what the hell do you think the kid at Wendy's in the morning is trying to do? Do you have the balls to get a job directly speaking to people with whom you have trouble communicating with that get pissy with you about it? That kid is out there trying to become an American. He's not hiding in some ethnic neighborhood speaking Spanish - he's right in front of you working for a paycheck while having a severe communications disadvantage but giving it a go all the same.

Great post. Learning a new language doesn't happen overnight. Hell, I took five years of Spanish and still couldn't speak perfectly or fluently. Not to mention that English is one of the MOST DIFFICULT languages to learn, there are a lot of inconsistencies. Nevermind being 40+ years of age, where learning something like a language is even more difficult. Do I believe you should speak English if you live in America? Sure! But I don't expect perfection, all I expect is effort.

Maybe I'm too understanding, but I don't care. A lot of these hispanic and other ethnic workers labor a helluva lot harder than I do, while still making an effort to assimilate to this society.

As far as the different language teleprompters, it's simple customer service.
Let's say a hispanic man who's been living in the country for about 5 years calls about a television problem. He works 50 hours a week and has two children to tend to. He can't spend every minute learning the language, but alas, he can get by. Now, having that Spanish option for customer service makes it easier on
1) the television company...they can communicate more smoothly
2) the man who is calling

[GibbsFactor]

This explains a lot, sorry but Richmond is far from diverse, heck when I go there a lot I feel that many do believe the war is still going on (cival war).

When you talk about diversity it means the ability to walk into a neighborhood and being of a different ethnic group and not getting the stares of death. To me the DC area is one of the most diverse areas in the nation. When I graduated HS there were 55 different nationalaties in my class alone, and we all got along.

I will also add not all the hispanics are illegal.

Agreed, doesn't get more international then good ole DC. A lot of non-US Citizens come here for that reason.

[RVAbrendan]

Maybe there's a business opportunity here. Start a cable or phone company where they only serve customers who communicate in English. Granted they will have to charge their customers more, but it seems there are plenty of people here who would gladly pay the premium so that on the rare occasion they have to dial customer support they don't have to press 1, and can get straight on with listening to the automated menu options in English.

I don't want the Spanish language channels on my cable; but I also don't want the shopping channels, the religious channels, the golf channel, or now that my kids are older the kids-oriented channels. But I understand many customers of the cable company do and their bills help reduce the cost to me of the channels I do want.

This reminds me of a Seinfeld episode where Elaine took a drink of something from Jerry's fridge and it tasted bad. When Jerry asked if she shook it, she said no, and complained "you have to shake everything nowadays. It's such a hassle! They should make all drinks pre-shaken" Jerry then picks up the bottle, looks at her sarcastically while gently shaking it, and says "boy, this is a real hassle. the nerve!"

I mean, honestly, just press 1. Option 2 is always for Spanish anyway, why wait that far! Have we really become that pretentious?

[Predicto]

A lot of you people sound like freaking Frenchmen.

"Oooohh, oooh, my precious language is under ze attack! Zut Alors, my culture it is awash with ze foreign influences!!! Sacre bleu!"

America is the most kick-ass country of all time in large part because it doesn't give a damn about crap like this. Can you do the job? Does it make a profit? Is it more efficient? Those are the questions we ask here. Our culture dominates the world because at its best it is a culture of inclusion and opportunity and creativity, not a culture of conformity, fear and resentment of those different then ourselves.

The Statue of Liberty is ashamed of all you "patriots."

[jbooma]

The other point is there are many people in the us who are bilingual, if you go through out life with refusing to learn other languages then you are not only missing out you are not evolving with society.

Remember the US is only 200+ years old now we are still an infant country and still evolving into what we will eventually become.

50 years from now everything can be very different, and soon we will be the minority if you like it or not. The one thing that is great about the country is how many kids growing up are half this and half that but are as american as you and I.

[headexplode]

In my experience, most of the people that complain about the spanish language being spoken in america can barely speak english themselves.

[jbooma]

In my experience, most of the people that complain about the spanish language being spoken in america can barely speak english themselves.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Sisyphus]

I was in New York recently and they're even letting the immigrants create enclaves such as Little Italy and Chinatown. Where will it all end?

It's odd that those who complain about the Spanish kid in Wendy's never seem as troubled by the waiter in the Chinese restaurant who talks funny too.

[McMetal]

McMetal, you didn't answer my question. I know there are options on the phone and Spanish channels. My question was what evidence do you have that suggests those cultural reflections are more pronounced than they were 100 years ago?

The evidence is anecdotal. Was Univision on your cable system fifteen years ago? Did you ever have to Dial 1 for English when you were a kid?

It's just expressing an opinion; I'm not submitting a graduate thesis.

We can argue about this all day, but what's the point? None of us are changing anyone's minds.

Destino, you make a valid point about demographics driving commerce, but those demographics are horribly skewed by illegal immigration. I happen to oppose any marketing based on Ethnicity. I don't think that's ethical.

There may be a liquor store and pawn shop in every slum, because the business is there to support it, but that doesn't make it right.

[DjTj]

The evidence is anecdotal. Was Univision on your cable system fifteen years ago? Did you ever have to Dial 1 for English when you were a kid? When I was a kid, a person would pick up the phone ... I never asked if they could speak another language. Also, I remember Channel 56 on UHF in the DC area was the international channel and we could watch programs in various languages.

Destino, you make a valid point about demographics driving commerce, but those demographics are horribly skewed by illegal immigration. I happen to oppose any marketing based on Ethnicity. I don't think that's ethical.
Is marketing based on language necessarily based on ethnicity?
There may be a liquor store and pawn shop in every slum, because the business is there to support it, but that doesn't make it right. Is there some kind of relationship between liquor stores and pawn shops and ethnicity? I think these have a lot more to do with economics than ethnicity.

[Sisyphus]

I happen to oppose any marketing based on Ethnicity. I don't think that's ethical.



Language = ethnicity?

And no Guinness for you on March 17th.

[dfitzo53]

Destino, you make a valid point about demographics driving commerce, but those demographics are horribly skewed by illegal immigration. I happen to oppose any marketing based on Ethnicity. I don't think that's ethical.

There may be a liquor store and pawn shop in every slum, because the business is there to support it, but that doesn't make it right.
I'm not really sure what your point is. Can you give an example of marketing based on ethnicity which you believe is unethical?

There are a large number of foreign students from Southern Asia at Purdue. The grocery store near my apartment, while it sells everyday American items like peanut butter and potato chips, also has a very large foreign food section. In addition, the store rents out Indian-language DVDs. They're blatantly catering to a particular ethnic group. How is that bad?

[Stophovr6]

So does anyone think that the first settlers were wrong for not assimilating and taking on the native languages of the land?

[Stophovr6]

I'm not really sure what your point is. Can you give an example of marketing based on ethnicity which you believe is unethical?

There are a large number of foreign students from Southern Asia at Purdue. The grocery store near my apartment, while it sells everyday American items like peanut butter and potato chips, also has a very large foreign food section. In addition, the store rents out Indian-language DVDs. They're blatantly catering to a particular ethnic group. How is that bad?

How about the blatant advertising of menthol cigerettes to the black community? Most Newport and Kool cigerette ads have mostly black models depicted. Marketing cancer seems pretty unethical in itself, and it's targeted for a specific ethnicity.

[McMetal]

Is there some kind of relationship between liquor stores and pawn shops and ethnicity? I think these have a lot more to do with economics than ethnicity.

Think back to that scene from Boyz in the Hood with Laurence's Fishburne's rant about gentrification.

And yes, in the context of my argument I am equating Spanish language to Ethnicity because it implies a distinct demographic.

[McMetal]

How about the blatant advertising of menthol cigerettes to the black community? Most Newport and Kool cigerette ads have mostly black models depicted. Marketing cancer seems pretty unethical in itself, and it's targeted for a specific ethnicity.


Yes, that was the example I was going to use too.

You should concentrate on selling the product, and not in an exclusionary sense.

Here's this cigarette - enjoy! Smoke our product!

Caution! Wet Floor!

[dfitzo53]

How about the blatant advertising of menthol cigerettes to the black community? Most Newport and Kool cigerette ads have mostly black models depicted. Marketing cancer seems pretty unethical in itself, and it's targeted for a specific ethnicity.
I must not see the harm in this that you do.

First, "black" isn't an ethnicity any more than "white" is.

With that out of the way, why do you think you see toy commercials on Nickelodeon and Disney, while the beer commercials are during football games? Why are detergent ads during Soap Operas and not boxing matches? How much sense would it make to run an ad for a country music CD on BET?

Every industry focuses its marketing on the demographic(s) most likely to be receptive to that marketing. It's common sense.

[Popeman38]

I must not see the harm in this that you do.

First, "black" isn't an ethnicity any more than "white" is.

With that out of the way, why do you think you see toy commercials on Nickelodeon and Disney, while the beer commercials are during football games? Why are detergent ads during Soap Operas and not boxing matches? How much sense would it make to run an ad for a country music CD on BET?

Every industry focuses its marketing on the demographic(s) most likely to be receptive to that marketing. It's common sense.Well if this is true, why the hell do I have to watch tampon commercials during my football games! Nothing better than drinking a beer with the guys watching football and being reminded about Aunt Flo's impending visit and the mood my wife will be in!

[Midnight Judges]

Well if this is true, why the hell do I have to watch tampon commercials during my football games! Nothing better than drinking a beer with the guys watching football and being reminded about Aunt Flo's impending visit and the mood my wife will be in!

One time I was sitting down for dinner and I had the TV on. I had grilled the perfect steak, medium rare. This lady get son TV "My flow was really heavy..."

Meal ruined. :mad:

[Stophovr6]

I must not see the harm in this that you do.

First, "black" isn't an ethnicity any more than "white" is.

With that out of the way, why do you think you see toy commercials on Nickelodeon and Disney, while the beer commercials are during football games? Why are detergent ads during Soap Operas and not boxing matches? How much sense would it make to run an ad for a country music CD on BET?

Every industry focuses its marketing on the demographic(s) most likely to be receptive to that marketing. It's common sense.

So it's common sense that black people like menthol cigarettes more than white people?

You're right black and white aren't ethnicities. How about African American and Carribean Americans are targeted for the sale of menthol cigarettes.

[stwasm]

One time I was sitting down for dinner and I had the TV on. I had grilled the perfect steak, medium rare. This lady get son TV "My flow was really heavy..."

Meal ruined. :mad:

Mom.... do you douche? :doh:

[Mooka]

nm,

I'm retarded.

[dfitzo53]

Well if this is true, why the hell do I have to watch tampon commercials during my football games! Nothing better than drinking a beer with the guys watching football and being reminded about Aunt Flo's impending visit and the mood my wife will be in!
I never said marketing was done totally along demographic lines. After all, there are women watching football games. I said companies take these things into account in devising their marketing schemes, and it makes perfect sense for them to do so.


So it's common sense that black people like menthol cigarettes more than white people?

You're right black and white aren't ethnicities. How about African American and Carribean Americans are targeted for the sale of menthol cigarettes.
I'm not a smoker. I really have no idea who smokes what kind of cigarettes. Generally speaking, marketing is targeted towards certain demographics for valid reasons. If blacks don't actually smoke menthol cigarettes more often than whites, then I don't know why companies would market them the way they do.

[Popeman38]

Letting? Ethnic Enclaves like Chinatown or Barios are there because people wouldn't accept certain immigrants into their community so they were forced to create places for these immigrants to live.Think you missed the tinge of sarcasm in his post.:cheers:

[Popeman38]

I never said marketing was done totally along demographic lines. After all, there are women watching football games. I said companies take these things into account in devising their marketing schemes, and it makes perfect sense for them to do so.I know this, man. ;) I was trying to inject a little humor into this thread.

[dfitzo53]

I know this, man. ;) I was trying to inject a little humor into this thread.
Gotcha. :cheers:

[Mooka]

Think you missed the tinge of sarcasm in his post.:cheers: nawww son...
:paranoid:

[Stophovr6]

I never said marketing was done totally along demographic lines. After all, there are women watching football games. I said companies take these things into account in devising their marketing schemes, and it makes perfect sense for them to do so.


I'm not a smoker. I really have no idea who smokes what kind of cigarettes. Generally speaking, marketing is targeted towards certain demographics for valid reasons. If blacks don't actually smoke menthol cigarettes more often than whites, then I don't know why companies would market them the way they do.

I'm glad to hear you aren't a smoker. I used to smoke and i'm glad I quit. Living in DC and New York I have noticed the different cigarettes people smoke and while not all black people smoke Newports, I noticed that more often than not they did.

Here is a claim to back it up:

http://www.naaapi.org/documents/menthol_factsht.asp

"Most African American smokers are addicted to menthols. Approximately 3 out of 4 Black smokers prefer menthols, and among Black youth who smoke, some reports indicate that more than 9 out of 10 choose menthols. Among whites, approximately 1/4 of smokers prefer menthol—mostly women and young, beginning smokers."

Now, do you think that Black people smoked menthol cigarettes and then companies decided they would market it towards them? Or do you believe that menthol cigarettes were marketed to African Americans, and as a result, mnore of them started smoking them?

I'll leave that up to you to decide. Everytime I see a Newport ad, which mind you have gotten better over the years from pressure from various groups, I can't help but think they are marketing a specific product to a specific ethnicity. Whether or not you believe this to be unethical, is opnion i guess. But I do think this is a different case than advertising toys on nickelodeon.

[jbooma]

One time I was sitting down for dinner and I had the TV on. I had grilled the perfect steak, medium rare. This lady get son TV "My flow was really heavy..."

Meal ruined. :mad:


what do you expect you are not supposed to eat dinner while watching tv, come on man :laugh: :laugh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

You of course are FREE to not frequent their establishments if you have a problem with that.

The problem is that I also need to be free to put ENGLISH ONLY SPOKEN HERE and AMERICANS ONLY signs at the door of my business and to rigidly enforce them without being subject to legal action.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Have you ever wondered how a nation that these "patriots" claim to represent managed to make it this far with out even having a national language? I mean think about it. If people like Mass and Sarge ran the show we would. We don't. Why? Simple, because that crap is not what America has ever been about.

How about because there USED TO BE a society in this country that enforced these things without need for governmental interference. Shop keepers would look at people speaking another language, shrug their shoulders and point to the door. Individuals would choose not to associate with people who didn't speak the same language they did.


Have you ever wondered why every major city (many of them dating back into our nations earliest history) all have ethnic areas. China town, little italy, etc etc? You think city planners put them there in advance? They are there because these ethnic communities that are suddenly the source of our impending doom... have always been a part of this country.

How about because those people were forced into small communities when they refused to give up their former culture and become Americans? At least it used to be that you could avoid those areas, the people who lived in those areas, and the other people who did business with the people who lived in those areas. Unfortunately, now our society has devolved to the point where those areas have expanded significantly, and where the things that used to be allowable only in those areas are not acceptable throughout society.

[Sarge]

A lot of you people sound like freaking Frenchmen.

"Oooohh, oooh, my precious language is under ze attack! Zut Alors, my culture it is awash with ze foreign influences!!! Sacre bleu!"



Yeah, that's worked out real well in France, huh?

Soon the national language there will be arabic

[Mass_SkinsFan]

It's actually really simple. If you own a store that sells grey widgets. Everyone loves grey widgets. One day one guy asks you for a pink widget. Being that these things only come in large packages you don't order any pink widgets because one guy doesn't want the entire order. If however you notice a large amount of customers that want pink widgets, enough to sell an entire order and more... you order some friggin pink widgets.

Not if you actually have morals and believe that pink widgets are inappropriate, for whatever reason. Then again, I'm the sort of person who, if I believe pink widgets are inappropriate and I order grey widgets from a company that now starts making or selling pink ones; will stop doing any business with that company. Even if it means paying more from my grey widgets from another source.


That's how the language thing works. The US has a very large hispanic population, the size of which justifies businesses investing in some level of language assistance. If there was a comparable French community you'd find the same thing. It's not seperate but equal or any other such civil rights conflict. It's actually very simple: it's marketing and customer service.

The problem is that in a proper society, those businesses look at the customers who speak French, German, Spanish, Korean, etc... and say "Sorry, we do our business in ENGLISH, and we'd rather go out of business than to change that policy. Get onboard with it, or find another company to do business with." I don't believe that giving up on my morals simply for customer service or marketing is appropriate.


Also you claim to want people to learn the language. Just what the hell do you think the kid at Wendy's in the morning is trying to do? Do you have the balls to get a job directly speaking to people with whom you have trouble communicating with that get pissy with you about it? That kid is out there trying to become an American. He's not hiding in some ethnic neighborhood speaking Spanish - he's right in front of you working for a paycheck while having a severe communications disadvantage but giving it a go all the same.

How about this... if you're going to interact with the public, you ought to be able to speak the language BEFORE you get the job. In your scenario, as a customer, I make sure I'm in another person's serving line from then on. I'm not interested in screwing up my breakfast because the server is trying to use me as an English tutor.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

The other point is there are many people in the us who are bilingual, if you go through out life with refusing to learn other languages then you are not only missing out you are not evolving with society.

I am not bilingual and never will be. I had to take a foreign language to graduate high school. It's the only class I ever carried less than a B-/C+ average in. I didn't want to be there, and it showed. I have no need to learn any language other than English. If it were to ever come to a point where I could no longer survive in this country as an English-only speaker it would be time for me to check out of the human race permanently.

Oh, and I'd suggest that a truly bi-lingual accepting society in this country is a DE-evolution, not an evolution.


Remember the US is only 200+ years old now we are still an infant country and still evolving into what we will eventually become.

DEvolving, jbooma. This country is DEvolving, not evolving. To evolve one has to move towards a better or higher level of existance, not a lower one.


50 years from now everything can be very different, and soon we will be the minority if you like it or not. The one thing that is great about the country is how many kids growing up are half this and half that but are as american as you and I.

Unfortunately, you're right that English speakers will soon be the minority in this country. I'm just hoping that I will be dead before the epidemic and plague becomes truly rampant throughout the country.

I would suggest that whether those kids are American or not depends on their attitudes, not their genetics. I see a whole lot of 100% caucasians, born and raised here in the US that I wouldn't consider Americans. Likewise I've seen a small number of immigrants to this country who I think are more American than most of the other people in this country.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

It's odd that those who complain about the Spanish kid in Wendy's never seem as troubled by the waiter in the Chinese restaurant who talks funny too.

Maybe that's because some of us don't go into the Chinese restaurant to begin with, Sisyphus?

[Destino]

How about this... if you're going to interact with the public, you ought to be able to speak the language BEFORE you get the job. In your scenario, as a customer, I make sure I'm in another person's serving line from then on. I'm not interested in screwing up my breakfast because the server is trying to use me as an English tutor.
How about that? Because what you are suggesting isn't realistic. Learn another language then talk to me about mastering something BEFORE interacting with people that already speak it. If you don't use it you can't master it.

If you need me to set you straight on anything else just ask.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

So does anyone think that the first settlers were wrong for not assimilating and taking on the native languages of the land?

I think that there's a similarity between these situations that proves my point on this topic.....

The American Indians drove off pretty much every attempt by Europeans to settle this country until the settlers arrived at Plymouth. In that case, a segment of the indians made the mistake of treating their enemy as a friend. 200 years later the American Indians were nearly extinct, because they failed to remember to protect themselves from their enemies. Likewise, the English speaking population of this country has failed to protect itself from 'enemies', and is now under serious attack and disruption by the same. If we don't quickly remedy the issue, the English-only American will be as nearly extinct as the American Indian.

[McMetal]

How about this... if you're going to interact with the public, you ought to be able to speak the language BEFORE you get the job. In your scenario, as a customer, I make sure I'm in another person's serving line from then on. I'm not interested in screwing up my breakfast because the server is trying to use me as an English tutor.

Yeah, that's sort of a more brutal way of putting the point I was trying to make.

Struggling with fluency is one thing, but you need to have minimum skills in order to adequately perform the job.

There are plenty of roles that kid can fill (washing dishes, cleaning floors) in the meantime while he is polishing his language skills.

Noone is blaming the kid for trying, it's just not a situation that consumers should have to endure. I'm fine with placing the blame on the employer.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

How about that? Because what you are suggesting isn't realistic. Learn another language then talk to me about mastering something BEFORE interacting with people that already speak it. If you don't use it you can't master it.

Destino, this is a large part of why I have no interest in leaving the United States. I don't speak another language;I have less than no interest in learning another language; and I don't expect somebody from a foreign country to speak English in their home country (obvious exception for other English speaking nations). Since I am not going to be fluent in their language, I'm not going to waste my time and theirs by going to their country.

[Major Harris]

This thread is well on it's way to being "masshacked."

http://www.sternwarte-ueberlingen.de/vortraege/nostradamus/nostradamus.gif

EXACTLY.

Everything should simply be in English here in the States. If you start including Spanish then you have to have French, German, Arabic, etc etc. Otherwise you're saying one minority group is more influential than another.


if there is ever a mass market for products in that language, you can bet you will see what you describe. products in those languages are available now, where there is a market for them.

You are correct, unfortunately. Which is why I think the easiest way to fix the problem at this point is through the government. That's unfortunate, as it is actually society that should be doing it, but it's probably the truth. Simply refusing to allow the government to do business in any language other than English would go a long way to forcing a lot of these people to learn English.

i know i'm on ignore, but hopefully someone will quote me. :D

do you bother to read links that are posted in threads? the fact is that hispanic immigrants want to learn, try to learn, and ARE learning english.





Can you imagine being on the battle field and you company all speak different languagesgauge


hey mb lingo crew: red herring or straw man?



Also your point about the children of immigrants is absurd. Doesn't matter what you speak in the house because when you leave it, you speak English. This is why you very often find the children of immigrants to be completely fluent in both languages. Have you actually met a child that has been in school for more then 3 years that can't speak English?! These kids have the greatest advantage of all as they tend to fully master two languages in ways taking classes later in life can never provide you.



quoted for truth.



Everyone should be encouraged to learn the language and how to function in our society.

not many people will argue that. some people like to look at data and see that it is happening.

[Sarge]

Destino, this is a large part of why I have no interest in leaving the United States. I don't speak another language;I have less than no interest in learning another language; and I don't expect somebody from a foreign country to speak English in their home country (obvious exception for other English speaking nations). Since I am not going to be fluent in their language, I'm not going to waste my time and theirs by going to their country.

But then you'll be the minority and you can whine and ***** to have all their goverment forms in English, and whine to get the taxpayers to pay your way.
You could work in Herr McDonalds and piss everyone off by speaking half ass German or whatever the native language is there

Oh wait, we're the only ones stupid enough to do that :doh:

[jbooma]

http://www.sternwarte-ueberlingen.de/vortraege/nostradamus/nostradamus.gif





:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I think Mass needs some time with a nice latin lady and then he will change his mind on everything :D

[Mass_SkinsFan]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

I think Mass needs some time with a nice latin lady and then he will change his mind on everything :D

I don't think so, jbooma. While I wouldn't necessarily mind spending the evening with 'the Right' latin lady, it would not change my view on anything. Of course to understand that you'd have to comprehend what 'the Right' lady means to me. Including the fact that this whole thing is not an issue of race in my mind, but rather an issue of nationality and loyalty.

BTW - I'm not recognizing the gentleman in the picture. Somebody want to clue me in.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

BTW - I'm not recognizing the gentleman in the picture. Somebody want to clue me in.

It's Nostradamus

[Mooka]

How about because those people were forced into small communities when they refused to give up their former culture and become Americans? These people weren't allowed to be Americans by law.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

These people weren't allowed to be Americans by law.

At the beginning, yes; which in my mind means they shouldn't have been here to begin with. However, over time the descendents of these people have become American citizens by birth without ever having to give up the foreign culture that their parents, grandparents, etc.... came from. In some cases they still identify with that foreign culture more than they identify themselves as Americans.

Just as disgusting to me are those people born here who CHOOSE to identify themselves with another country/culture in addition to (I'd say in place of) their Americanism by having dual-citizenship with another country; something I don't believe the United States should allow.

[Mooka]

At the beginning, yes; which in my mind means they shouldn't have been here to begin with. We brought many of them over here.


However, over time the descendents of these people have become American citizens by birth without ever having to give up the foreign culture that their parents, grandparents, etc.... came from. In some cases they still identify with that foreign culture more than they identify themselves as Americans. What time frame are you referring too for these descendents?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

We brought many of them over here.

I understand that. I also still don't believe that they should have been brought here.


What time frame are you referring too for these descendents?

Anywhere from 1680 to 1911. There are parts of my family that came to this country not 30 years after the Plymouth Colony was founded. The most recents ones arrived at Ellis Island in 1911. They came from places like England, Ireland, Germany, and Norway (we think); but they have one interesting (and slightly odd) thing in common... none of them retained connections to their families back in the "Old Country". In fact the list of countries MAY even be longer than what I just listed, but there are no family records at all to indicate where some of these people came from. The only portion of the family that has been able to be traced back to Europe (the 1911 branch) had to wait for my great-grandparents death to be researched because they would not allow it.

[jbooma]

Just as disgusting to me are those people born here who CHOOSE to identify themselves with another country/culture in addition to (I'd say in place of) their Americanism by having dual-citizenship with another country; something I don't believe the United States should allow.


Then your US would be stuck in the stone age, the dual citizenship has been huge for those that want to bring business here and back to their countrys, there is a reason why there are laws like this :doh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Then your US would be stuck in the stone age, the dual citizenship has been huge for those that want to bring business here and back to their countrys, there is a reason why there are laws like this :doh:

I'd prefer to be stuck in the Stone Age than to be living in a country where national identity has no meaning or value to the majority of the people living there. I don't believe that a person can serve two masters. You cannot give 100% of your support to one county if you are supporting another country at the same time.

Remember, I'm an economic nationalist... I don't believe in conducting business with companies and countries beyond the borders of this one.

[dfitzo53]

I'd prefer to be stuck in the Stone Age than to be living in a country where national identity has no meaning or value to the majority of the people living there. I don't believe that a person can serve two masters. You cannot give 100% of your support to one county if you are supporting another country at the same time.

Remember, I'm an economic nationalist... I don't believe in conducting business with companies and countries beyond the borders of this one.
Read: the funniest thing about Mass's patriotism is that it would run this country straight into the ground.

[Sarge]

Then your US would be stuck in the stone age, the dual citizenship has been huge for those that want to bring business here and back to their countrys, there is a reason why there are laws like this :doh:

Sure is. Most people from other countries use thier US citizenship to avoid the repressive taxes in the socialist countries they came from

[Mooka]

Anywhere from 1680 to 1911. Well in that time frame you can't blame some immigrants for not wanting to assimilate. (the non-white ones) There was no reason, they weren't allowed to be Citizens.

[jbooma]

Sure is. Most people from other countries use thier US citizenship to avoid the repressive taxes in the socialist countries they came from

also is about flexibility for those that travel back and fourth a lot, which does attract those to bring in $$ to the US which is why countries like India now will soon if not already allow the dual citizenship etc...

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Well in that time frame you can't blame some immigrants for not wanting to assimilate. (the non-white ones) There was no reason, they weren't allowed to be Citizens.

Those aren't the people I was talking about and I think you are well aware of that. Unfortunately, a certain portion of those people, even after being given citizenship have still chosen not to integrate themselves into American culture, instead retaining their own ancestral culture or creating a quasi-American culture of their own.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

also is about flexibility for those that travel back and fourth a lot,...

Which is part of the problem in my mind. So far as I can see, there is no reason for the average citizen to ever leave the United States. Nor is there any reason for the vast majority of foreigners to ever come to this country. Therefore that 'flexibility' is unnecessary.

Additionally, as I said before... a man cannot serve two masters. If their loyalty is divided between dual citizenship the there is no way they can be trusted so far as I am concerned.

[AJ_Skins]

Precise data are difficult to pin down, but Potok's group counts as many as 150 Klan chapters with up to 8,000 members nationwide.


it reached peak membership at more than 4 million in the 1920s

Yep, sounds like a real epidemic.

[ddpls]

I've been saying this for awhile now. If you make it easier to immigrate here legally they will do it legally. That will greatly decrease the flow over the border under the cover of darkness, so to speak. If that happens then you KNOW whoever is sneaking in here is up to no good. That makes it easier for the BP to adequately secure our borders against the real bad guys, i.e. drug smugglers, terrorists, etc.

It isn't as hard as you think in Immigrate to the US. My wife did it. I stood in line with her. It takes some time and not that much effort. I think the problem is like most people, everyone expects to have what they want RIGHT NOW. Forget having to wait and do it properly. This has become the age of self entitlement. They decided that being illegal immigrants, gets them what they want right now, why wait and do things properly. I am sick of all this BS posted by people who have never been through the process talking out their behinds on how hard things are. Get over it, that is life! Most things worth while aren't easy! But it is no near as impossible as people try and make it sound. Get in line, do it the right way and that is all there is to it! I don't care if your from Mars, immigrate here properly.

[Destino]

Those aren't the people I was talking about and I think you are well aware of that. Unfortunately, a certain portion of those people, even after being given citizenship have still chosen not to integrate themselves into American culture, instead retaining their own ancestral culture or creating a quasi-American culture of their own.
Who defines American culture Mass? You?!

Should they act more like you or more like west coast liberals? Maybe they should take up the "culture" of the southern states... perhaps those are american enough and they should adopt the behavior of New Yorkers instead.

This country is a mixture of cultures Mass, it always has been. From the very start different group settled in different areas of what would one day be the United States of America. What unites us is the principles of this country. The idea of freedom, of rights no one can take from us, the idea that hard work = success... which is certainly not the way things work in MOST of the world.

[Major Harris]

Who defines American culture Mass? You?!

hey destino:

http://www.dragonballyee.com/blogpics/2006/01January/DSC_7100-brickwall.jpg

[Predicto]

It isn't as hard as you think in Immigrate to the US. My wife did it. I stood in line with her. It takes some time and not that much effort. I think the problem is like most people, everyone expects to have what they want RIGHT NOW. Forget having to wait and do it properly. This has become the age of self entitlement. They decided that being illegal immigrants, gets them what they want right now, why wait and do things properly. I am sick of all this BS posted by people who have never been through the process talking out their behinds on how hard things are. Get over it, that is life! Most things worth while aren't easy! But it is no near as impossible as people try and make it sound. Get in line, do it the right way and that is all there is to it! I don't care if your from Mars, immigrate here properly.

Where is your wife from and did she get in by marrying you?

I assisted my childrens' nanny get her citizenship. She is from Bolivia and it was not easy and it took years and years.

[ddpls]

Where is your wife from and did she get in by marrying you?

I assisted my childrens' nanny get her citizenship. She is from Bolivia and it was not easy and it took years and years.

She is from Indonesia, and it doesn't matter if your married to a citizen or not, the same rules apply. INS did away with the citizen marrige exception years ago because the scam that russians were pulling. The girls would marry a us citizen, stay here and leave the guy. They are now citizens because of that. It took us over 2 years. We didn't even use an immigration lawyer, we filed all the paperwork ouselves. If it takes a little longer well then that is what it takes. Others have done it why can't you? Why do people today feel they are different then ones who came before them. Those are the rules, if you don't like them immigrate to another country, no one is making you immigrate to the US! Heck Try Australia, you want to talk about a hard time getting into a country!

[Predicto]

She is from Indonesia, and it doesn't matter if your married to a citizen or not, the same rules apply. INS did away with the citizen marrige exception years ago because the scam that russians were pulling. The girls would marry a us citizen, stay here and leave the guy. They are now citizens because of that. It took us over 2 years. We didn't even use an immigration lawyer, we filed all the paperwork ouselves. If it takes a little longer well then that is what it takes. Others have done it why can't you? Why do people today feel they are different then ones who came before them. Those are the rules, if you don't like them immigrate to another country, no one is making you immigrate to the US! Heck Try Australia, you want to talk about a hard time getting into a country!

How did she get into the US in the first place? Was she on a student or work visa or have a green card from some other source? Did you sponsor her in? How long was she here before she applied for citizenship?

The reason that I ask is that the average Joe Mexican who just wants to come to the US to work won't have access to those things.

[ddpls]

How did she get into the US in the first place? Was she on a student or work visa or have a green card from some other source? Did you sponsor her in? How long was she here before she applied for citizenship?

The reason that I ask is that the average Joe Mexican who just wants to come to the US to work won't have access to those things.

She only has green card, she don't want to be citizen of the US. we were ROM in Singapore. (Registry of Marriage) Like Justice of the peace here. She came over a few months after I returned. Avg. joe mexican can be sponsered by his employer. The employer just has to be responsible for them. Therein lies the key! But it isn't just mexican people either. It is just Mexican's happen to be the largest group. What I don't understand is why not just fix your own country? I know, that takes work! Lets all take the path of least resistance!!! Never going to solve the problems if we keep letting everyone in however they please. Just like any of the worls problems, You have to fix it at the source! And the source of Illegal immigration is the fact that they don't clean up their own countries. Corruption in lets say Indonesia is incredible. You have to bribe everyone. They all want their take. They have cops in the toll booths watching the people who collect the toll road fares. An old friend of mine married a very nice mexican woman. She got her drivers license in Mexico City by paying the guy at the counter $5. Believe me, I rode with her, she can't drive!:laugh: . I know, it is never going to happen, but doesn't change the facts that even if it is hard to get here, maybe they should try and fix up the problems in there own countries that they are trying to escape. I think that is a fair assesment and a fair question. I have nothing against Mexican people or anyone from any other country, I have a few friends who came from Mexico. I do have a problem with people who feel they are above doing what everyone else has to do, just because they feel it is to hard or they just don't want to bother.

[Major Harris]

paging djtj, paging djtj

[DjTj]

paging djtj, paging djtj :laugh: I wasn't going to jump in until he answered Predicto's question, but unfortunately he didn't answer Predicto's question.
She only has green card, she don't want to be citizen of the US. we were ROM in Singapore. (Registry of Marriage) Like Justice of the peace here. She came over a few months after I returned. How did she "come over"? Tourist visa? Business visa? K-3 spouse visa?

And we still don't know how she got her green card ... My guess is that she got it as an immediate relative of a US citizen (your wife). That's pretty much the only way to do it without a waiting list.

And they didn't change the law to ban that. The only rule is that you have to go back to USCIS in two years to make sure that you're still married. You and your wife might want to try to get all of this straight.

Avg. joe mexican can be sponsered by his employer. The employer just has to be responsible for them. Therein lies the key!
And average joes actually can't be sponsored by average employers. We have very strict labor laws about this, and employment-based green cards are only given out to professionals. If you want your immigrant worker to get a green card, you have to prove that no Americans can do the job, which involves posting it in the newspaper, waiting for a while, and proving that the immigrant has certain qualifications (which usually involves an advanced degree of some kind).

If it were so easy to become a legal immigrant, everyone would do it. There are no benefits to being illegal.

[ddpls]

If it were so easy to become a legal immigrant, everyone would do it. There are no benefits to being illegal.[/QUOTE]


And after all that that I guess that makes it ok then.



She came on her tourist visa. We applied for the green card then. We waited in line several times for over 2 years. I guess we did have it easy. You must be right.

[Major Harris]

And after all that that I guess that makes it ok then.
.
that's not what he's saying at all. but dj is very educated on the topic of immigration, he knows what he's talking about.

[ddpls]

that's not what he's saying at all. but dj is very educated on the topic of immigration, he knows what he's talking about.

I agree, it does appear that way. I do admit, it has been several years since she came here and all the details are not fresh in my mind. So I will have to take his word for it.

[Predicto]

And after all that that I guess that makes it ok then.

She came on her tourist visa. We applied for the green card then. We waited in line several times for over 2 years. I guess we did have it easy. You must be right.

No one is saying you did anything wrong. It just doesn't work the same way for the typical illegal alien. They could not get in the way she did.

[DjTj]

And after all that that I guess that makes it ok then.It doesn't make it okay at all. That's why we call them ILLEGAL.
She came on her tourist visa. We applied for the green card then. We waited in line several times for over 2 years. I guess we did have it easy. You must be right. I said it WASN'T easy to immigrate. And tourist visas don't last 2 years, so unless she got some other kind of visa after she arrived, she would technically have been illegal for a period of time also ... I think what usually happens is when you apply for the green card, they'll give you a K-3 visa while you're waiting to be approved.

[ddpls]

It doesn't make it okay at all. That's why we call them ILLEGAL. I said it WASN'T easy to immigrate. And tourist visas don't last 2 years, so unless she got some other kind of visa after she arrived, she would technically have been illegal for a period of time also ... I think what usually happens is when you apply for the green card, they'll give you a K-3 visa while you're waiting to be approved.

I only said she came here on a tourist visa, I didn't say she stayed here for 2 years on it. But anyway. I read what your saying. and I am sure it is tough on whomever.

[Predicto]

Holy crud! A poster who actually reconsiders his position and acknowledges a point made by someone else, rather than just sticking to his guns and yelling louder and louder?

How the heck did YOU get in to the Tailgate? :laugh:


Welcome.

[ddpls]

Holy crud! A poster who actually reconsiders his position and acknowledges a point made by someone else, rather than just sticking to his guns and yelling louder and louder?

How the heck did YOU get in to the Tailgate? :laugh:


Welcome.

I understand that no one person can know everything. I work in that world. Hell I like to learn and debate. Makes me a rounder more understanding person . At least that is what someone told me.:laugh: Oh and thanks by the way.

[dfitzo53]

Holy crud! A poster who actually reconsiders his position and acknowledges a point made by someone else, rather than just sticking to his guns and yelling louder and louder?

How the heck did YOU get in to the Tailgate? :laugh:


Welcome.
He's new here, he'll learn. ;)

[Mass_SkinsFan]

This country is a mixture of cultures Mass, it always has been. From the very start different group settled in different areas of what would one day be the United States of America. What unites us is the principles of this country. The idea of freedom, of rights no one can take from us, the idea that hard work = success... which is certainly not the way things work in MOST of the world.

You're right to a certain degree, Destino. There are certain principles that this country was founded on, and you're correct that they're very different than the way things operate in most of the rest of the world. Unfortunately, for the most part our society has flushed them down the toilet in the last century and a half, and most definitely in the last fifty years; becoming much closer to many of those other country's societies than to what this country was supposed to be.

I'm not going to get into exactly what I believe those principles are/were. I've been through them on this board before and we both know we're not going to come to any level of agreement on what they are or how they should be enforced.

There are different personalities and sub-cultures to different areas of this country and that's fine; so long as there is a common base to those sub-cultures. Unfortunately that no longer seems to be the case in this country.

[Seabee1973]

Sorry but that is like saying we should have one religion, I hate to break it to you but forcing one language is then violating free speech, so do you advocate no free speech then, if that was the case then you want a socialist government

if you are into achitecture, history and exploring then you are missing out not going to miami and la, they are beautiful in their own way, and how could you not want to travel to Key West, got that place is amazing :cheers:

freedom of speech= speak english so i can understand what you are saying behind my back

[ddpls]

He's new here, he'll learn. ;)

Rather quickly I hope!

[Sarge]

Holy crud! A poster who actually reconsiders his position and acknowledges a point made by someone else, rather than just sticking to his guns and yelling louder and louder?

How the heck did YOU get in to the Tailgate? :laugh:


Welcome.


He hasn't met Chommie yet :laugh: