More influential Stan Lee or William Shakespeare

[Burgold]

Whose characters, whose quotes, and whose philosophy has had a greater influence on today's Western Culture. The question probably seems insane, but after I laughed at myself for thinking it I began to wonder. Who created more iconic figures? Whose material is presented to an audience at a more impressionable age and thus more likely to shape behavior? Whose phrases have become more enshrined. When Johnny Storm pushes the gay agenda to millions of kids by shouting "Flame On!" every month what does that really mean?

This thread is semi-serious and tongue and cheek. I think an argument can be made for Stan which is interesting, but I guess it's really about the influence of "pop culture" versus the influence of "high culture" or the relevance of literature versus pulp (Shakespeare was thought to be a pulp writer to some degree during his day) and art versus Art.

Thoughts?

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Shakespeare.

[rincewind]

Not even close. Not even much of a comparison. Shakespeare molded not only modern lit., but the whole language. In 2,000 years nobody will know who Stan Lee is, they will still be reading the Bard.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Shakespeare.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said, not even a close comparison.
Almost every major literary theme/plot can find its roots in Shakespeare, my guess is that Stan Lee even owes a debt to the great Englishman.

[fwo40]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said, not even a close comparison.
Almost every major literary theme/plot can find its roots in Shakespeare, my guess is that Stan Lee even owes a debt to the great Englishman.

This is probably the real truth to it....I'm sure Lee has "borrowed" similar themes and plots to Shakespeare's works.

[Bang]

OIf course Stan Lee borrowed from Shakespeare,, every writer since has borrowed from Shakespeare.

Now as to the original question, who influences society more? Probably Shakespeare, but I think in terms of modern pop culture, don't sell Stan short. His characters are recognizable worldwide, and in the annals of literature that is an achievement not many writers can claim.

As the Clash once said.. "Plato the Greek or Rin-Tin-Tin.. who's more famous to the billion millions?.... Newsflash..."

As far as enjoyable stories, gimme Stan over Shakespeare any day. At least I can understand what they're saying on the first pass. Reading the Bard gives me a headache.

~Bang

[zoony]

Okay, next question:


Which country has a more powerful Navy... The United States, or Somalia? Because I think you could make an argument for Somalia, what with the speedboats and all.


....

[Mark The Homer]

Tangent: I have all the Sgt Furys from #1 to #100. I have zero Shakespear. I can't even spell his name right.

Okay, back to topic

[AsburySkinsFan]

OIf course Stan Lee borrowed from Shakespeare,, every writer since has borrowed from Shakespeare.

Now as to the original question, who influences society more? Probably Shakespeare, but I think in terms of modern pop culture, don't sell Stan short. His characters are recognizable worldwide, and in the annals of literature that is an achievement not many writers can claim.
All you've done is show how Shakespeare is even more influential; because if Stan is influential to pop culture and Shakespeare influenced Stan, then its Shakespeare's influence is simply being seen through Stan's influence of pop culture.


As the Clash once said.. "Plato the Greek or Rin-Tin-Tin.. who's more famous to the billion millions?.... Newsflash..."
Popularity is different than influence, some of the most influential people that ever lived wouldn't be recognized on many streets today. For more proof of this watch Jay Leno's "Jay Walking".

[Burgold]

Of course it's Willie, especially if we are looking at historical influence, but if we talk about who has had a greater influence on the thinking on society in the last thirty years... I mean, you could argue that the entire Bush Administration is based on the Incredible Hulk. They have completely mirrored his character, well meaning behemoth with a good heart who acts without thinking and winds up causing a mess everywhere and making everyone fear and hate him. Besides, can't you just envision Cheney stomping down the corridors of the West wing growling, "Dick Smash! Dick Bash!"

As to Stan borrowing from Willie, he probably did, however, he borrowed much more from the Greek and Roman myths and histories... as did Shakespeare, so if we are to go around from that angle... Homer is a far greater influence than any of 'em :doh:

(I realize that like Mr. Fantastic I am stretching things to bizarre proportions, but the human superhero of Stan Lee is really an interesting phenomenon. There is a resonance, especially to the American spirit, the cowboy spirit that is buoyed by Stan's creations and the philosophy he embedded in his comics. Now, is Stan a reflection of a time and place or catalyst of an era. Looking back one could actually ask the same of Shakespeare.)

[AsburySkinsFan]

As to Stan borrowing from Willie, he probably did, however, he borrowed much more from the Greek and Roman myths and histories... as did Shakespeare, so if we are to go around from that angle... Homer is a far greater influence than any of 'em :doh:
I would say that Homer would actually be a much more apt comparison to Shakespeare than Stan.

It's like bricks in a foundation, remove one at the top and no body really notices, take one away at the bottom and things get a little more interesting.

*edit*Stan being a top brick, Shakespeare and Homer being bottom bricks.*/edit*

[Burgold]

I don't disagree and this debate is purely for fun and not scholarship, but ask yourself this... what would have a greater impact today... if theatre companies around the world decided not to produce any more of Shakespeare's plays or if every Marvel character was removed from all its mediums (comics, video games, marketing, movies) How many kids aspire to be Othello? How many learn right versus wrong from Spider-Man?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I don't disagree and this debate is purely for fun and not scholarship, but ask yourself this... what would have a greater impact today... if theatre companies around the world decided not to produce any more of Shakespeare's plays or if every Marvel character was removed from all its mediums (comics, video games, marketing, movies) How many kids aspire to be Othello? How many learn right versus wrong from Spider-Man?

But, see now you're talking popularity not influence, and while the popular stuff may be at a superficial level inluential the deeper influences in the popular stuff have a much greater *edit* overall */edit* influence.

[rincewind]

Of course it's Willie, especially if we are looking at historical influence, but if we talk about who has had a greater influence on the thinking on society in the last thirty years... I mean, you could argue that the entire Bush Administration is based on the Incredible Hulk. They have completely mirrored his character, well meaning behemoth with a good heart who acts without thinking and winds up causing a mess everywhere and making everyone fear and hate him. Besides, can't you just envision Cheney stomping down the corridors of the West wing growling, "Dick Smash! Dick Bash!"

As to Stan borrowing from Willie, he probably did, however, he borrowed much more from the Greek and Roman myths and histories... as did Shakespeare, so if we are to go around from that angle... Homer is a far greater influence than any of 'em :doh:

(I realize that like Mr. Fantastic I am stretching things to bizarre proportions, but the human superhero of Stan Lee is really an interesting phenomenon. There is a resonance, especially to the American spirit, the cowboy spirit that is buoyed by Stan's creations and the philosophy he embedded in his comics. Now, is Stan a reflection of a time and place or catalyst of an era. Looking back one could actually ask the same of Shakespeare.)


It's a little unfair to say 'who has a more immediate impact on today's society - someone still writing or some that has been dead for 400 years.' That's like asking 'who is more influential to contemporary American politics - Thomas Jefferson or George Bush?' Obviously W. has more of an immediate impact - but that is nothing compared to the grounbreaking and overall influence (not to mention influencing Bush himself) accomplished by Jefferson.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It's a little unfair to say 'who has a more immediate impact on today's society - someone still writing or some that has been dead for 400 years.' That's like asking 'who is more influential to contemporary American politics - Thomas Jefferson or George Bush?' Obviously W. has more of an immediate impact - but that is nothing compared to the grounbreaking and overall influence (not to mention influencing Bush himself) accomplished by Jefferson.

You hit it right there;
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4938/nose2md.jpg

[rincewind]

I don't disagree and this debate is purely for fun and not scholarship, but ask yourself this... what would have a greater impact today... if theatre companies around the world decided not to produce any more of Shakespeare's plays or if every Marvel character was removed from all its mediums (comics, video games, marketing, movies) How many kids aspire to be Othello? How many learn right versus wrong from Spider-Man?


Yeah, but take out ALL of Shakespeare's influence (not just his actual writing) and you lose and inmeasurable amount of the world's great art. You can't simply pluck out one string.

[JMS]

Whose characters, whose quotes, and whose philosophy has had a greater influence on today's Western Culture. The question probably seems insane, but after I laughed at myself for thinking it I began to wonder. Who created more iconic figures? Whose material is presented to an audience at a more impressionable age and thus more likely to shape behavior? Whose phrases have become more enshrined. When Johnny Storm pushes the gay agenda to millions of kids by shouting "Flame On!" every month what does that really mean?

This thread is semi-serious and tongue and cheek. I think an argument can be made for Stan which is interesting, but I guess it's really about the influence of "pop culture" versus the influence of "high culture" or the relevance of literature versus pulp (Shakespeare was thought to be a pulp writer to some degree during his day) and art versus Art.

Thoughts?

Stan Lee. Shakespere has been dead for centuries, Comic books are published weekly/daily. Comic books are wider read in the United States than the Bard, and comic books are clearly more influencial. ( video, grahic novels, comic books, books, tv shows, and movies )

When was the last time you heard a President of the United States say... "All that glitters is not gold", or "Get yee to a nunary"..

Reagan, Bushes, Clint Eastwood and many movies quote Stan Lee all the time..

"Go ahead make my day", first appeared in a comic book before Clint and Ronnie uttered the words.

"With great powers come great responisibility",.... spiderman.

"It's clobbering time", .... the thing..

The entire vietnam war counter culture of the 1960's and 1970's milais were mirrored in comic books of the day. Remember when Captain America became Nomad because he lost faith in the US during the vietnam war and Watergate. It was a mirror to the Nation's mood.

One measure of influence would be the commercial success of the two products. How much money did the last Hamlet movie bring in. Compare that to Tobey Maguire's Spiderman.

100 years from now, the answer to the question might change, but for today, clearly Stan is the man.

[Burgold]

But, see now you're talking popularity not influence, and while the popular stuff may be at a superficial level inluential the deeper influences in the popular stuff have a much greater influence.


Bah humbug... that's a semantic quibble! The child who is influenced by "with great power comes with great responsibility is influenced" the kid who gets totally revved up by all Iron Man's gadgetry or Reed Richard's inventions and decides science is very cool and that propels him down that road is influenced. Kids learn good and evil in part from the stories and mythos they grow up with as well as their experiences (and parents we hope)... the modern American myth that many of us have grown up with is the Superhero... which shapes our notions of self-sacrifice, morality, persistance, and hope... to a degree.

[Burgold]

Yeah, but take out ALL of Shakespeare's influence (not just his actual writing) and you lose and inmeasurable amount of the world's great art. You can't simply pluck out one string.

Actually, I love Willie and that's why I am having fun with this issue (Okay, issue is too strong a word. How about topic?) Shakespeare's themes and his structure and meter have become the basis for so much... and that the plays have as much relevance or impact today that they do is incredible. Still, who would you rather choose as your villian Iago or Dr. Doom? Who do people, especially children, reflect on or look up to these days?

[AsburySkinsFan]

Bah humbug... that's a semantic quibble!

Are you saying that there is no difference between popularity and influence? It's easy, Shakespeare influenced just about every form of Western Liturature and entertainment (movies, books, TV etc), Stan Lee is part of Shakespeare's influence; therefore Shakespeare necessarily has a greater influence than Lee. Regardless of who's quoting whom, the roots all go back to Shakespeare.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Stan Lee. Shakespere has been dead for centuries, Comic books are published weekly/daily. Comic books are wider read in the United States than the Bard, and comic books are clearly more influencial. ( video, grahic novels, comic books, books, tv shows, and movies )

When was the last time you heard a President of the United States say... "All that glitters is not gold", or "Get yee to a nunary"..

Reagan, Bushes, Clint Eastwood and many movies quote Stan Lee all the time..

"Go ahead make my day", first appeared in a comic book before Clint and Ronnie uttered the words.

"With great powers come great responisibility",.... spiderman.

"It's clobbering time", .... the thing..

The entire vietnam war counter culture of the 1960's and 1970's milais were mirrored in comic books of the day. Remember when Captain America became Nomad because he lost faith in the US during the vietnam war and Watergate. It was a mirror to the Nation's mood.

One measure of influence would be the commercial success of the two products. How much money did the last Hamlet movie bring in. Compare that to Tobey Maguire's Spiderman.

100 years from now, the answer to the question might change, but for today, clearly Stan is the man.

Oh, no! Now there's two of them! ;)

[Burgold]

Are you saying that there is no difference between popularity and influence? .

I quibble, therefore I post. :laugh:

No, but I do believe that they are intertwined. For example, something with no popularity is unlikey to inspire anything new today. Something with huge popularity is bound to garner conversation, thought, and lead to innovation. To what degree is Shakespeare influencing modern thought today compared to other media. Is Shakespeare's infulence totally historical or is it still alterring the world and to what extent? Is William Shakespeare historically important or contemparily important? The answer is in the inbetween.

[herrmag]

At the risk of sounding rude, I can't believe anyone could ask themselves that question and not immediately come to the conclusion of Shakespeare. It's not even close. Not even remotely. We're talking intramural, co-ed football vs the NFL type of disparity between the two.

[JMS]

Oh, no! Now there's two of them! ;)

It's not even close. Rincewind is right. The Bard has been dead for almost 400 years. he only ever published less than 20 plays. Of those 20 plays 90% of the American public has read fewer than 2 plays and that was likely in Highschool English class.

Stan Lee is not only an author but a publisher. He is the most prolific writer/publisher of published materials in the country and has been for the last 5 decades. Stan Lee is more widely quoted in American culture and children are more widely familiar with his work about 1000 times over.

It's not even a fair comparison, and this isn't a knock on the Bard it's just plain fact. If you haven't read a comic book in the last 30 years you are in the minority of the country not the majority. Some kids read 3-4 comic books a week or a month. About a 100,000 times as many kids do that than read 1 Shakespere play on their own in a given month, throw in adults too.

Might be a more fair comparison if you threw in Steven King. But Stan would be more prolific and more widely read than SK too. It's no cooincience Spiderman the movie brought in 200 million dollars in the first 11 days

Rincewind was right. even the most influencial writer of the last 400 years is not more influencial no modern culture than the most prolific writter / publisher of the last 50. It's apples and oranges and the oranges have the pulp.

[herrmag]

I quibble, therefore I post. :laugh:

No, but I do believe that they are intertwined. For example, something with no popularity is unlikey to inspire anything new today. Something with huge popularity is bound to garner conversation, thought, and lead to innovation. To what degree is Shakespeare influencing modern thought today compared to other media. Is Shakespeare's infulence totally historical or is it still alterring the world and to what extent? Is William Shakespeare historically important or contemparily important? The answer is in the inbetween.

If you remove Shakespeare from the equation, modern theatre might not have ended up the same. The mere fact that in this day and age we are still performing his work is testament to not only his historical influence, but that of his influence today. If Stan Lee never existed, we'd just read other comics (for those that even read comic books).

[dfitzo53]

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/4938/nose2md.jpg
It kinda looks like that guy is in the process of painfully sneezing out the ball.

[Burgold]

If you remove Shakespeare from the equation, modern theatre might not have ended up the same.

That's a different and far more interesting question. Shakespeare had quite a few contemporaries who fell into his shadow... if there had been no Shakespeare (and in this thread I am assuming that we are all going by the belief that William did pen his plays and poems) would someone else have filled that role. Were the plays of Shakespeare much like the steam engine in that it was an invention that was going to happen then and there and he just got to it first.

Modern theatre and in the film industry owes a lot to Shakespeare in terms of form and structure even though Shakespeare is almost never produced today as it was first written/produced. Shakespeare's works are heavily edited today... mostly for length.

Does film also owe a debt to comic books? I believe it does to a lesser degree, particularly in use of angles and color. Although, that doesn't involve Stan except as publisher. There also is an argument that the modern pacing of stories and quick edits/cuts is due to the influence and style of the modern comic book. So, Stan's influence certainly passes beyond merely the characters and the prose he wrote.

(Every so often I feel I have to add the caveat that I recognize how ridiculous the argument is, but it is interesting to me; simply in terms of examining the intensity of a modern influencer versus a historical one. On the surface, there really is no debate and using a wide camera lens there never will be one, non the less, with a fine brush... it's interesting fodder... at least to me.)

[jbooma]

are you serious????

when they are reading Stan Lee in school hundreds of years after he is dead then we can talk :laugh: :laugh:

[Burgold]

are you serious????

:laugh: :laugh:

Not really, but there's an interesting there there over there. If you know what I mean.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Here's the deal guys its like this;
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/tree.jpg

[Bang]

are you serious????

when they are reading Stan Lee in school hundreds of years after he is dead then we can talk :laugh: :laugh:

They will be,,, when some teacher is painstakingly trying to interest kids in the classic "art" you can bet some of them will have a Spiderman or a Hulk issue tucked into their textbook.

~Bang

[EersSkins05]

I can't believe some of you are suggesting that Spiderman's box office gross somehow justifies Stan Lee as more influential than William Shakespeare.

Let me put it to you this way. Ask 1,000 Americans who Stan Lee is. Then ask 1,000 Americans who William Shakespeare is.

I guarantee you that Shakespeare beats Lee by at LEAST 20 percentage points. And he's been dead 400 years.

Now, you might say, "Well, that's only because everyone learns about Shakespeare in school."

And I would respond, "Thank you, that will be all."

[rincewind]

I can't believe some of you are suggesting that Spiderman's box office gross somehow justifies Stan Lee as more influential than William Shakespeare.

Let me put it to you this way. Ask 1,000 Americans who Stan Lee is. Then ask 1,000 Americans who William Shakespeare is.

I guarantee you that Shakespeare beats Lee by at LEAST 20 percentage points. And he's been dead 400 years.

Now, you might say, "Well, that's only because everyone learns about Shakespeare in school."

And I would respond, "Thank you, that will be all."



And there you have it folks. Excellent post, Eers. :cheers:

[OrangeSkin]

Wow...just wow. Some people are actually arguing for Stan Lee? :doh: :doh: :doh:

Shakespeare INVENTED over 1700 commonly used english words including laughable, gossip, lable, hurried, secure, torture, hint, eyeball, marketable, worthless, secure, champion, fashionable, birthplace, exposure, addiction, obscene, excitement, and luggage.

Shakespeare INVENTED hundreds of commonly used english phrases including the following: Eaten out of house and home, Pomp and circumstance, foregone conclusion, Full circle, the makings of, One fell swoop, seen better days, a sorry sight, and neither rhyme nor reason.

Carry on.

[jbooma]

They will be,,, when some teacher is painstakingly trying to interest kids in the classic "art" you can bet some of them will have a Spiderman or a Hulk issue tucked into their textbook.

~Bang


big deal, does not mean it is a bigger influence, half the kids will forget spiderman and stuff as they get older, they won't forget shakespear because his influence is everywhere

[Burgold]

Let me put it to you this way. Ask 1,000 Americans who Stan Lee is. Then ask 1,000 Americans who William Shakespeare is.

."


Oh come on now. That's far fetched. In a country where forty three percent of those people who voted for George W. Bush for President can't name his Vice President... you think you'll find a reasonable sample? For gosh sakes, in most studies at least 12% can't even name the first President of the United States. On top of that, I bet you'll find more people who can name than ten of Spider-Man's villians than two of Shakespeare's villians.


You people are too serious. :silly:

[rincewind]

Oh come on now. That's far fetched. In a country where forty three percent of those people who voted for George W. Bush for President can't name his Vice President... you think you'll find a reasonable sample? For gosh sakes, in most studies at least 12% can't even name the first President of the United States.

I'd say Shakespeare is a more well known world figure than any American President.



On top of that, I bet you'll find more people who can name than ten of Spider-Man's villians than two of Shakespeare's villians.


You people are too serious. :silly:


You didn't ask 'who has the more famous characters?'

[herrmag]

Here's the deal guys its like this;
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/tree.jpg

I'd say this picture is dead on, and translates it in a way you comic book fans can understand. :silly: :D

[AsburySkinsFan]

Hey ya'll, remember the question!!!


Whose characters, whose quotes, and whose philosophy has had a greater influence on today's Western Culture.
Western Culture. Yet everyone's responses are focusing on American Culture, the two are not equal. Still even if we change the question to only American Culture it is still not even a fair fight.

[McMetal]

I have my BA in English with a concentration in Literature, and I dislike Shakespeare's work intensely. The archaic grammar and diction is not only borderline incomprehensible, I find it painful to the eye and ear, by and large. That said, Shakespeare's work is unquestionably more influential and more unanimously hailed as "great art". And I love comics, believe me.

It's like comparing Star Wars to Citizen Kane. One may be a lot more fun, but the other is an undisputed masterpiece.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I can't believe people are arguing for Stan Lee.

I like the guy a lot, I like his work...but jeez.

[mjah]

Asbury's tree image wins the thread.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I love this Spaceman!!! I saw this and was like "Awwwww, poor baby gotta pick on a cheerleader." Darn shame they actually held on to the win.
http://deadspin.com/assets/resources/2007/02/noah.gif

*sorry for the hijack I'll stop now.*

[Spaceman Spiff]

I love this Spaceman!!! I saw this and was like "Awwwww, poor baby gotta pick on a cheerleader." Darn shame they actually held on to the win.
http://deadspin.com/assets/resources/2007/02/noah.gif

*sorry for the hijack I'll stop now.*

He's such a whiney little *****. He thinks he's hardcore but his dads a tennis player and his mom is a model (which is odd cause he got slapped with the ugly gene).

back to your regularly scheduled thread :D

[Burgold]

Asbury's tree image wins the thread.

Unfortunately, the winner receives the work that he chose. Asbury has won the complete work of William Shakespeare (shipping & handling & the cover cost of the book not included). Had he chose Stan Lee, he would have received a mint conditioned mylar protected 1961 Fantastic Four (Stan's first Marvel comic) for its original cover price of ten cents plus shipping and handling.

[KDawg]

I'm not saying that Stan Lee is more influential than Shakespeare, but some of you are very full of yourself and your opinions. That's a bit hypocritical, I'm sure, as I'm sure there's issues where I do the same thing.

But open your minds a little bit. Lee isn't just a guy who draws cartoons.

The debate isn't as ridiculous as it may seem at first glance.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Unfortunately, the winner receives the work that he chose. Asbury has won the complete work of William Shakespeare (shipping & handling & the cover cost of the book not included). Had he chose Stan Lee, he would have received a mint conditioned mylar protected 1961 Fantastic Four (Stan's first Marvel comic) for its original cover price of ten cents plus shipping and handling.

:silly: Figures, the first award I ever win and the whole thing is available in the Public Domain! Grrrr, I got hosed.
http://i52.photobucket.com/albums/g3/ocujer/hosed.jpg
http://img.slate.com/media/49/020422_Mountain_dew_1.jpg

[Burgold]

Just another thought as far as foundations go. Ask yourself how much debt does Shakespeare owe to Chaucer. Without Jeff, Willie might have been writing in Latin. Chaucer and his unfinished Canterbury Tales may be in some respects may have allowed Shakespeare. Nothing is built from a vaccuum. As Stan Lee built his work on the myths of the Greeks, Norse, and Romans... Shakespeare also built his craft on the bones of his predessors.

Edit: Thanks for playing along. This has been a fun icy day exercise.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Just another thought as far as foundations go. Ask yourself how much debt does Shakespeare owe to Chaucer. Without Jeff, Willie might have been writing in Latin. Chaucer and his unfinished Canterbury Tales may be in some respects may have allowed Shakespeare. Nothing is built from a vaccuum. As Stan Lee built his work on the myths of the Greeks, Norse, and Romans... Shakespeare also built his craft on the bones of his predessors.

Edit: Thanks for playing along. This has been a fun icy day exercise.

I think that you're right in this evaluation, but then like I said earlier the Homer vs. Shakespeare comparison would be an interesting one to evaluate as well. But, then I wouldn't be able to play along as much since that discussion gets out of my area of expertise pretty quickly.

[Burgold]

Then again, maybe you're right... maybe the real person to be tooking about is Jerry Siegal or Joe Schuster (creators of Superman) :laugh: I always feel bad for them. They were forced to sell or give up the rights to Supes and never made a penny off the movies, tv, lunchbox or other revenue and once they stopped drawing Superman other than appearances never made a cent. Imagine creating a billion dollar product and getting less than three thousand for it.

[roadkill]

I'm not sure how many kids read comic books these days. I don't remember anyone who read comic books growing up (but maybe that's just me).

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm not sure how many kids read comic books these days. I don't remember anyone who read comic books growing up (but maybe that's just me).

I've got a box full of Marvel comics downstairs in my office.

[Burgold]

I'm not sure how many kids read comic books these days. I don't remember anyone who read comic books growing up (but maybe that's just me).

I was in Borders the other day and happened to look at their comic rack. It's amazing how expensive a comic book has gotten. Way too much for your standard kiddie. Used to be the same price as a candy bar. I remember reading an old book from the sixties it was the issue before they made the jump from ten cents to fifteen cents, Stan wrote a two page apology for the need to raise the price. Times have changed. You may be right, more people probably experience comic books through cartoons, and movies today than the books themselves. Darn illiterate society. (Again, half a joke. My Uncle when he arrived in the country from Poland in 1963 claims he learned English by reading comic books. Gesture-Action.

[Zguy28]

I can't believe some of you are suggesting that Spiderman's box office gross somehow justifies Stan Lee as more influential than William Shakespeare.

Let me put it to you this way. Ask 1,000 Americans who Stan Lee is. Then ask 1,000 Americans who William Shakespeare is.

I guarantee you that Shakespeare beats Lee by at LEAST 20 percentage points. And he's been dead 400 years.

Now, you might say, "Well, that's only because everyone learns about Shakespeare in school."

And I would respond, "Thank you, that will be all."I have no doubt that Shakespeare is more influential, but ask the same amount of the "general populace" who Spiderman is vs. who MacBeth is. I bet the results are reversed.

[EersSkins05]

I have no doubt that Shakespeare is more influential, but ask the same amount of the "general populace" who Spiderman is vs. who MacBeth is. I bet the results are reversed.

Well, if you're going by THE most popular character(s) created by either, the more appropriate comparison would be Spiderman v. Romeo and Juliet. (Probably about even.)

Even then, Stan Lee isn't studied as the creator of modern western literature and/or viewed as the doorway into advanced, adult understanding of complex art taught by every school and every university in the western world.

[Burgold]

Even then, Stan Lee isn't studied as the creator of modern western literature and/or viewed as the doorway into advanced, adult understanding of complex art taught by every school and every university in the western world.

Oh get off your high horse. Shakespeare wasn't the creator of Western Literature. He wasn't even the first playwright who wrote in English. Whoever told you that isn't well studied. Shakespeare was died in 1616 at the age of 52. Strangely, he died the same year as Miguel Cervantes... who is also an immensely important figure in Western Literature. Chaucer was likely the creator of English Literature. Western Literature itself has been created by Dante (13th Century), Chaucer (14th Century) and a host of others many of whom preceded Shakespeare and heavily influenced his writing style in the Elizabethan era. He was also incredibly indebted to the plays of the Ancient Greeks and utilized many of the techniques and structures that was popularized during the ancient Greek Period. In fact, in his own period, Shakespeare was considered bawdy and a populist. It is that (violence, gore, insult, sex) which has led to the perserverance of the plays in the first place.

[Zguy28]

Oh get off your high horse. Shakespeare wasn't the creator of Western Literature. He wasn't even the first playwright who wrote in English. Whoever told you that isn't well studied. Shakespeare was died in 1616 at the age of 52. Strangely, he died the same year as Miguel Cervantes... who is also an immensely important figure in Western Literature. Chaucer was likely the creator of English Literature. Western Literature itself has been created by Dante (13th Century), Chaucer (14th Century) and a host of others many of whom preceded Shakespeare and heavily influenced his writing style in the Elizabethan era. He was also incredibly indebted to the plays of the Ancient Greeks and utilized many of the techniques and structures that was popularized during the ancient Greek Period. In fact, in his own period, Shakespeare was considered bawdy and a populist. It is that (violence, gore, insult, sex) which has led to the perserverance of the plays in the first place.
http://www.dac.neu.edu/english/kakelly/chaucer/notchaucer.jpg

Chaucer: I'm a writer.
Wat: A what?
Chaucer: A wha- a what? A writer. I write, with parchment, and ink. Geoffrey Chaucer's the name, writing's the game. You've read my book? the Book of the Duchess? No? Well, it was allegorical.
Roland: Well, we won't hold that against you, that's for every man to decide for himself.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[McMetal]

Unfortunately, the winner receives the work that he chose. Asbury has won the complete work of William Shakespeare (shipping & handling & the cover cost of the book not included). Had he chose Stan Lee, he would have received a mint conditioned mylar protected 1961 Fantastic Four (Stan's first Marvel comic) for its original cover price of ten cents plus shipping and handling.

Slabbed, I assume? Kids are all about the Slabbing these days.

In three years I'll own that issue myself. Fifteen more to go and my collection is complete!

[EersSkins05]

http://www.dac.neu.edu/english/kakelly/chaucer/notchaucer.jpg

Chaucer: I'm a writer.
Wat: A what?
Chaucer: A wha- a what? A writer. I write, with parchment, and ink. Geoffrey Chaucer's the name, writing's the game. You've read my book? the Book of the Duchess? No? Well, it was allegorical.
Roland: Well, we won't hold that against you, that's for every man to decide for himself.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

:laugh:

"Yes, master Falhurst, I'm well aware a good fonging is on the way."

[EersSkins05]

Oh get off your high horse. Shakespeare wasn't the creator of Western Literature. He wasn't even the first playwright who wrote in English. Whoever told you that isn't well studied. Shakespeare was died in 1616 at the age of 52. Strangely, he died the same year as Miguel Cervantes... who is also an immensely important figure in Western Literature. Chaucer was likely the creator of English Literature. Western Literature itself has been created by Dante (13th Century), Chaucer (14th Century) and a host of others many of whom preceded Shakespeare and heavily influenced his writing style in the Elizabethan era. He was also incredibly indebted to the plays of the Ancient Greeks and utilized many of the techniques and structures that was popularized during the ancient Greek Period. In fact, in his own period, Shakespeare was considered bawdy and a populist. It is that (violence, gore, insult, sex) which has led to the perserverance of the plays in the first place.

You're right that I shouldn't have used the word "creator" when assessing his importance in literary history, although I never implied that he was the "first playwright who wrote in English." Obviously anyone that creates any sort of art whatsoever has an influence from previous artists, so I'm not sure what your point is there. If it's that he was a "bawdy populist" that has persevered hundreds of years, it seems that you're making my argument for me.

[Burgold]

You're right that I shouldn't have used the word "creator" when assessing his importance in literary history, although I never implied that he was the "first playwright who wrote in English." Obviously anyone that creates any sort of art whatsoever has an influence from previous artists, so I'm not sure what your point is there. If it's that he was a "bawdy populist" that has persevered hundreds of years, it seems that you're making my argument for me.

Probably over-reacted (more than likely because you called this thread idiotic in the parody thread. This thread is not idiotic... it's merely silly) In continuance of the silly, I would suggest to you that simply because Ben Franklin discovered electrisity doesn't disqualify Thomas Edison from having a profound influence. Simply because Bill Gates didn't invent the microprocessor doesn't mean that his introduction of the Microsoft OS hasn't dynamically influenced communication, business, and much more. Stan Lee has created a body of work that has so far lasted over sixty years (I don't know when he stopped creating, though I do believe he still consults on occassion) this body of work has helped to shape a number of industries as well as had various impacts on society itself.

The impact of pop culture versus high culture on the day to day and on the academic level is intriguing to me. You can make a case that the resonance of these heroes and the morality plays they are constructed around have made an impact in how we interpret and define the "world"

Oh, and the argument against Stan Lee for the most part is that he is a populist (I'm not sure about bawdy, but certainly sex and violence is a part of the comic world)

Shakespeare versus Stan Lee is a silly argument, but hardly idiotic. :silly:

Edit: I can't believe I've invested so much time in a thread I basically started because I was bored and thought would be funny or bring out some fun responses. Too many hyper-serious people on this board. Clearly, Stan is the Man and William is but Delirium. Or if you prefer, Willy is Silly while Stan has the Plan.

[Peregrine]

As in the other thread of the same type, its a bit of a false arguement, and one not well defined. Influence is a subjective term unless properly defined. Even then, are we discussing real long term meaninful influence, or being able to tell me who was in issue 11 of Batman versus what line 23 of MacBeth says?

Also, while the younger generation(and not TOO young) may be more knowledgeable of Stan Lee(or like him better), the rest are not. In fact, all of the worlds population after Shakespeare and before Lee have been much more influenced by Shakespeare(seeing as Lee didnt exist). Those 50 years from now will be much more influenced by Shakespeare. Those that arent big into comic books are much more influenced by Shakespeare.

Ask for some peoples favorite shakespeare quotes and you will get some real memorable lines, classics. Ask from sone favorite Stan Lee character quotes and you will get the more humorous short sentences. Kazaam and Pow might be up there...

Do not mistake a fad for a trend. 15 years from now, when you havent read a comic book for 15 years, how much of an influence will Stan Lee have on you versus Shakespeare?

[Burgold]

Not untrue, but one should remember that Stan Lee's comics have been a part of our history for over sixty years. It could very well be that the influence is one that is not even fully recognized. It has been many years since I've read an alphabet book, yet those books that helped to teach me letters and phonemes still influence the way that I spell and read. I'm just never think about it. The whole storyboarding of every movie, especially action/adventure movie has been heavily influenced by Stan's work. The depiction of a hero. Look at the difference between the Eroll Flynns and John Waynes and the Heroes of modern depiction. Stan's characters were the first hero to be humanized to be flawed to have normal problems. That was what was so world shattering about Spidey. He was an everyman just a geeky kid who was into science and photography.

I do agree with the murk of influence and its levels. As for memorable lines, in some way... the whole counter culture Vietnam and even Iraq movements can be summed up in the phrase, "With great power comes great responsibility" Even those pro-war seem to be bound to that ideology. Is that due to Stan. Probably not, but he was one of the first to popularly voice it. How people interpret that voice, how they are influenced is a whole nother matter. Look at the Bible or Koran. People have "interpreted" it in so many different ways to their benefit to start wars to subjugate peoples to do attrocities as well as to demand justice, mercy, and tolerance. Influence is a bit of a murky uncontrolled beast. Once the bricks are set who knows what the building will look like. Once the bird leaves the nest who knows where it will fly despite our best attempts to be a good influence.

[mjah]

the whole counter culture Vietnam and even Iraq movements can be summed up in the phrase, "With great power comes great responsibility" Even those pro-war seem to be bound to that ideology. Is that due to Stan. Probably not
Ya think?


but he was one of the first to popularly voice it.
Was Stan Lee writing comic books in 500BC?

If not, then Confucius might have very publicly beaten Stan to the punch on that one. By roughly 2,500 years.

Or were you just referring to "great philosophers" of the past 50 years?

[Burgold]

Stan Lee has been reincarnated many times. Once he wore the name Confucius. How could you not know that!

Unfamiliar with the Confucius quote... thereby, I was influenced via the second channel. Sometimes the tributaries that provide us the fish influence us more directly than the rivers and oceans that feed the tributary.

Now, even in my silly earnestness of this thread... I would be hard pressed to call Stan a great philosopher... Mind you, I'm not sure whether I would refer to Shakespeare that way either :D