foxsports article on leonard davis and derrick dockery

[ptr77]

Did not see this posted anywhere and i did a search for this link, I apologize in advance if this was already posted.



http://community.foxsports.com/blogs/footballoutsiders/2007/03/09/The_New_Age_of_Millionaire_Linemen

Derrick Dockery, Buffalo Bills

Contract: Seven years, $49 million, (sensing a trend here?), $18 million guaranteed.
Games Started (Position) 16 of 16 (16 LG, Washington Redskins)
Positional Adjusted Line Yards: Left Tackle, 4.95 (Rank: 5, League Average 4.37) Mid/Guard, 4.58 (Rank: 7, League Average 4.32)
Blown Blocks: 0
Penalties: 7 (6 False Start, 1 Offensive Holding)
Comments: The Redskins were below the league average in Adjusted Line Yards for Left End, Right Tackle and Right End – basically, each of the five directions we measure in which Dockery didn’t play a fairly major part. Think they’ll miss him?

Leonard Davis, Dallas Cowboys

Contract: Seven years, $49.6 million, $18.5 million guaranteed. Yeah, this one had a lot of people wondering. And the numbers below put Davis in the vicinity of the dreaded Alex Barron Statistical Cluster, which is the rough equivalent of the Mendoza Line.
Games Started (Position) 16 of 16 (16 LT, Arizona Cardinals)
Positional Adjusted Line Yards: Left End, 4.08 (Rank: 17, League Average 4.12) Left Tackle, 3.96 (Rank: 26, League Average 4.37)
Blown Blocks: 7
Penalties: 10 (8 False Starts, 2 Offensive Holding)
Comments: It’s quite simple, really. If Leonard Davis is worth $18 million guaranteed, especially since initial reports indicate that the Cowboys will move him to the right side, I’m the President of the Skip Bayless Fan Club. In an offseason of big-money signings (some more ridiculous than others), this is the goofiest. If Hutch’s deal was the equivalent of the attack on Fort Sumter, Davis’s signing was the rubber chicken upside the head.

[bubba9497]

Davis’s signing was the rubber chicken upside the head.



ZING!


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[Jeremiah_Johnson]

Ridiculous. All of it.

Blown blocks??? Gee, how hard is that when your a guard? Block the guy in front of you.

Playing tackle????? Speed rushers, blitzers, corners coming off the edge? It is a complete different ballgame.

Not to mention the skins o line was alot better than the cardinals O line. You think that had something to do with Dockerys production? Of course.

2 more false starts?? He's a FRICKEN TACKLE. Of course he's going to have more false starts.

As far as the money goes, hey, they're both overpaid, but would you rather spend 49 million on a guard, or 49 million on a tackle who can play everywhere? DUH!!!!

This is one of the worst articles I've ever seen. Next time lets compare apples and oranges.

[PCRoughrider]

Comments: The Redskins were below the league average in Adjusted Line Yards for Left End, Right Tackle and Right End – basically, each of the five directions we measure in which Dockery didn’t play a fairly major part.

Does this mean Dockery's good or bad?

[ptr77]

Ridiculous. All of it.

Blown blocks??? Gee, how hard is that when your a guard? Block the guy in front of you.

Playing tackle????? Speed rushers, blitzers, corners coming off the edge? It is a complete different ballgame.

Not to mention the skins o line was alot better than the cardinals O line. You think that had something to do with Dockerys production? Of course.

2 more false starts?? He's a FRICKEN TACKLE. Of course he's going to have more false starts.

As far as the money goes, hey, they're both overpaid, but would you rather spend 49 million on a guard, or 49 million on a tackle who can play everywhere? DUH!!!!

This is one of the worst articles I've ever seen. Next time lets compare apples and oranges.

If it supported Davis as the all-world tackle you hope he would be you would be lauding it. The only oversight i see in the article is when they talk about end runs they may not account for pullling of linemen, something the skins did a lot of. A blown block is pretty easy to see, and i would assume that coaches do watch tapes and find missed blocks, who is to say these guys can't find that info. You should maybe read how football outsiders make these statistics, it is quite interesting. And davis can't play anywhere. As you can see he false starts outside and misses blocks. Not to mention he let something like 8 sacks last year (that is a real stat too, not some formula), and is generally regarded as a bust at tackle.

[ptr77]

Does this mean Dockery's good or bad?

It means he is good, but i don't know if they factor in pulling linemen, i doubt it is feasible to actually watch every play that well, but you never know.

[Jeremiah_Johnson]

If it supported Davis as the all-world tackle you hope he would be you would be lauding it. The only oversight i see in the article is when they talk about end runs they may not account for pullling of linemen, something the skins did a lot of. A blown block is pretty easy to see, and i would assume that coaches do watch tapes and find missed blocks, who is to say these guys can't find that info. You should maybe read how football outsiders make these statistics, it is quite interesting. And davis can't play anywhere. As you can see he false starts outside and misses blocks. Not to mention he let something like 8 sacks last year (that is a real stat too, not some formula), and is generally regarded as a bust at tackle.

I never said he was all world. And I wouldn't want him as a tackle either. But it is nice to know he can play it in a pinch if need be.

My point was that you cannot concievably compare statistics from two different postions. Guard and Tackle are so completely different its not even funny. Only a fool would sit there and write an article comparing the two.

Haven't we all learned this lesson is the "Roy vs Taylor" threads around here. They play two completely different postions.

To sit here and discuss false starts and blown blocks between a tackle and a guard is the most ludicrious thing I've ever heard.

Day and nite, apples and oranges, Brittany and KFed.

[ptr77]

I never said he was all world. And I wouldn't want him as a tackle either. But it is nice to know he can play it in a pinch if need be.

My point was that you cannot concievably compare statistics from two different postions. Guard and Tackle are so completely different its not even funny. Only a fool would sit there and write an article comparing the two.

Haven't we all learned this lesson is the "Roy vs Taylor" threads around here. They play two completely different postions.

To sit here and discuss false starts and blown blocks between a tackle and a guard is the most ludicrious thing I've ever heard.

Day and nite, apples and oranges, Brittany and KFed.

Who exactly are we comparing here? I read that as adjusted for the line, so davis is ranked 27th at LT (he would not be ranked as a guard). The article in no way compares davis to dockery or anyone of those guys to the other, it just puts up their stats at their positions. It compares the money paid to the play on the field. If anything it compares them to the hutch deal, and they all fail in that regard.

[HEavyJumbo85]

I liked the fact that the Leonard Davis signing struck him in such a way that it drove him to join the Skip Bayless fan club...Now that just puts it all in perspective. It takes something awful to drive someone to agree with Skip, let's hope it never happens again...

[bubba9497]

I never said he was all world. And I wouldn't want him as a tackle either. But it is nice to know he can play it in a pinch if need be.

My point was that you cannot concievably compare statistics from two different postions. Guard and Tackle are so completely different its not even funny. Only a fool would sit there and write an article comparing the two.

Haven't we all learned this lesson is the "Roy vs Taylor" threads around here. They play two completely different postions.

To sit here and discuss false starts and blown blocks between a tackle and a guard is the most ludicrious thing I've ever heard.

Day and nite, apples and oranges, Brittany and KFed.


you really have to start reading the entire article :doh:

it ISN'T comparing the two at all, It is about the lineman who recieved top dollar, and gauging their abilities by using certain stats common among all OL-men.

Each player is gaged individually on his on merits

just because this article doesn't say what you want to hear you start making up stuff to discredit it, but as before in your rant you get facts wrong, showing that not only did you not read (or understand) the article, but attacked it soley because it ripped the Davis signing.

[HeHateMe]

Are we really resorting to articles that arent even articles? Blogs now?

Wow the pickins' must be slim.

[Jeremiah_Johnson]

you really have to start reading the entire article :doh:

it ISN'T comparing the two at all, It is about the lineman who recieved top dollar, and gauging their abilities by using certain stats common among all OL-men.

Each player is gaged individually on his on merits

just because this article doesn't say what you want to hear you start making up stuff to discredit it, but as before in your rant you get facts wrong, showing that not only did you not read (or understand) the article, but attacked it soley because it ripped the Davis signing.


And just because it rips a dallas signing you agree with it. :doh: Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you a little more unbaised. Coming from the guy who said Columbo is no good cause nobody offered him big money, yet someone offers Davis big money and he's trash too. Get real.

Davis is a guard now. All those statistics don't mean squat.

[ptr77]

Are we really resorting to articles that arent even articles? Blogs now?

Wow the pickins' must be slim.


Can you read? Its from football outsiders, you know the guys who actually crunch numbers and data trying to come up with meaningful statistics? Because it is a blog we should discount it? Your just mad that davis is a fat slob, who can't remember a snap count, and moves as fast as molasses. Find me an article that says davis is a great signing and did not have 8 sacks allowed and 10 penalties last year. Too much truth in all the articles about davis for you?

[ptr77]

And just because it rips a dallas signing you agree with it. :doh: Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you a little more unbaised. Coming from the guy who said Columbo is no good cause nobody offered him big money, yet someone offers Davis big money and he's trash too. Get real.

Davis is a guard now. All those statistics don't mean squat.


Yeah! Now he will be in shape, never have to deal with fast rushers, and never have to recognize blitzes!

Davis will dominate at guard because it isn't tackle? Thats quite the theory. He better make the probowl for what the boys are paying him.

[bubba9497]

Yeah! Now he will be in shape, never have to deal with fast rushers, and never have to recognize blitzes!

Davis will dominate at guard because it isn't tackle? Thats quite the theory. He better make the probowl for what the boys are paying him.


too bad he stunk playing guard for the Cards as well :laugh:

[bubba9497]

And just because it rips a dallas signing you agree with it. :doh: Perhaps you would be taken more seriously if you a little more unbaised. Coming from the guy who said Columbo is no good cause nobody offered him big money, yet someone offers Davis big money and he's trash too. Get real.

Davis is a guard now. All those statistics don't mean squat.


:laugh: you're priceless, accusing me of doing exactly what you've been doing , (again getting it wrong) and then say I'm not taken seriously because of it :rotflmao:

quick skippy, how exactly does your blatent bias incorrect posts make you creditable? :rolleyes:

1. article written before Columbo re-signed
2. no matter tackle or guard the stats quoted relate to both positions
3. how is a penalty different between the 2 positions :laugh:
4. the more you post the deepr the hole you dig for yourself, just confirming our point.
5. Davis sucked at playing guard for the Cards as well

you really need to cure this "getting facts wrong" problem of yours :laugh:


btw I never posted anything agreeing or disagree with their findings :thumbsup:

[bulldog]

what will be funny is seeing some team like the Patriots sign Adam Timmerman or the Redskins sign Mulitalo and end up with a better player in 2007 than Davis or Dockery turn out to be with their new teams :)

[Arsenic]

what will be funny is seeing some team like the Patriots sign Adam Timmerman or the Redskins sign Mulitalo and end up with a better player in 2007 than Davis or Dockery turn out to be with their new teams :)

If the Broncos can have system runningbacks, ol' Buges and the Skins can have system linemen. They'll find another Dock for about 2/10's of his money.

[bubba9497]

Are we really resorting to articles that arent even articles? Blogs now?

Wow the pickins' must be slim.


if you must try to discredit facts by ignoring the obvious, at least get your details right in your lies :nono:

posts like theses only confirm the points you're trying to ignore & discredit :laugh:

[HeHateMe]

Can you read? Its from football outsiders, you know the guys who actually crunch numbers and data trying to come up with meaningful statistics? Because it is a blog we should discount it? Your just mad that davis is a fat slob, who can't remember a snap count, and moves as fast as molasses. Find me an article that says davis is a great signing and did not have 8 sacks allowed and 10 penalties last year. Too much truth in all the articles about davis for you?

Yes, I'm furious.

I'm furious we solidified our line and now can focus on the draft without having to reach and being able to draft the BPA.

Outside of Stienbach, he's the only other guard I wanted Dallas to sign.

So yes, I'm having a terrible time dealing with this.

Now tell me, which Giant lineman would you take over Davis?

[HeHateMe]

what will be funny is seeing some team like the Patriots sign Adam Timmerman or the Redskins sign Mulitalo and end up with a better player in 2007 than Davis or Dockery turn out to be with their new teams :)

One can dream I suppose. ;)

[HeHateMe]

if you must try to discredit facts by ignoring the obvious, at least get your details right in your lies :nono:

posts like theses only confirm the points you're trying to ignore & discredit :laugh:

Facts can be spun whichever way the author would like.

Again, you can write him off now, but I'll give him a season or two before I judge.

Every move Dallas makes this offseason, and has made in the past is bad in your opinion.

Why should this be any different?:whoknows:

[ptr77]

Yes, I'm furious.

I'm furious we solidified our line and now can focus on the draft without having to reach and being able to draft the BPA.

Outside of Stienbach, he's the only other guard I wanted Dallas to sign.

So yes, I'm having a terrible time dealing with this.

Now tell me, which Giant lineman would you take over Davis?

All of the starters and rich seubert. The giants oline is athletic and hardworking, they are average in pass protection and gave tiki the best years of his career. Davis is a lazy underachiever, the two things you never want an olineman to be. Tell me how many current giants linemen had 10 penalties and 8 sacks allowed last year.

[HeHateMe]

All of the starters and rich seubert. The giants oline is athletic and hardworking, they are average in pass protection and gave tiki the best years of his career. Davis is a lazy underachiever, the two things you never want an olineman to be. Tell me how many current giants linemen had 10 penalties and 8 sacks allowed last year.

Last I checked, the Giants offensive line was one of the most undisciplined in the league.

Constantly leading the league in false starts and unsportsmanlike penalties.

[ptr77]

Last I checked, the Giants offensive line was one of the most undisciplined in the league.

Constantly leading the league in false starts and unsportsmanlike penalties.

And they cut the worst offender and the personal foul machine retired. Now quick answer my question? For all their undisciplined behaviour not one of them comes close to 8 sacks allowed, 10 penalties, and the word "bust" attached to their name constantly.

[HeHateMe]

And they cut the worst offender and the personal foul machine retired. Now quick answer my question? For all their undisciplined behaviour not one of them comes close to 8 sacks allowed, 10 penalties, and the word "bust" attached to their name constantly.

And Columbo was a "bust" before he came to Dallas.

Now his re-signing in Dallas after a season taking every snap and allowing 3 sacks is being hailed as an excellent move.

Gurode, one year ago, was fighting to keep his job period. And now he's a pro bowl center.

Why shouldnt I think Sparano can make Davis the lineman everyone thinks he can be?

[ptr77]

And Columbo was a "bust" before he came to Dallas.

Now his re-signing in Dallas after a season taking every snap and allowing 3 sacks is being hailed as an excellent move.

Gurode, one year ago, was fighting to keep his job period. And now he's a pro bowl center.

Why shouldnt I think Sparano can make Davis the lineman everyone thinks he can be?


I see... So this sparano turns all linemen into studs does he? Good for him. Columbo came from Boston College, Boston College is known for making hard working, blue collar, nfl linemen. Davis is a lazy underahiever known for what exactly?

[kmd24]

If Davis can perform better than Rivera (who played poorly for two years after his back injury), then the Dallas OL will be improved. It's a hefty price tag for an underperformer, but, even so, there is reason for Dallas fans to be optimistic. The price tag is really irrelevant given the current situation in Dallas and the existing free agent market.

Getting Columbo back is a good thing. Given his resigning, the Dallas OL has a chance to be better than it has in a while. Even if it is similar in performance to 2006 line, that should be OK. The Dallas offense wasn't really the problem in 2006.

[phatSkins27]

I never said he was all world. And I wouldn't want him as a tackle either. But it is nice to know he can play it in a pinch if need be.

My point was that you cannot concievably compare statistics from two different postions. Guard and Tackle are so completely different its not even funny. Only a fool would sit there and write an article comparing the two.

Haven't we all learned this lesson is the "Roy vs Taylor" threads around here. They play two completely different postions.

To sit here and discuss false starts and blown blocks between a tackle and a guard is the most ludicrious thing I've ever heard.

Day and nite, apples and oranges, Brittany and KFed.

Not saying that a guard and a tackle cannot be compared or saying that safteies cannot be compared is about as shortsided as saying Tony Homo cant be compared to say Lucy from Peanuts when she holds the football for Charlie Brown....

And since when does being as fat as nate newton entitle someone to swindle jerry jones out of close to $50 million?

And why does that swindling of the $50 million entitle them to every Bandwagoneer, I like the cowboys, steers, and queers, fan to claim that guys who cant cut it on the Arizona cardinals are the future hall of fame players of the NFL?

[KingGibbs]

Spin, spin, spin 'boys fans. You overpaid for an underacheiver and that's the bottomline. One of the premier OL guru's is out in Arizona now and do you not think that if he would have seen anything that resembled Davis being worth even half of what you clowns gave him they wouldv'e at least made an attempt to re-sign him considering they have all of that cap space?

[bubba9497]

And Columbo was a "bust" before he came to Dallas.

Now his re-signing in Dallas after a season taking every snap and allowing 3 sacks is being hailed as an excellent move.

Gurode, one year ago, was fighting to keep his job period. And now he's a pro bowl center.

Why shouldnt I think Sparano can make Davis the lineman everyone thinks he can be?


good fact spinning

Columbo was a "bust" because of a busted leg, nothing else.... and he wasn't that good, just better than the turnstile that played RT in 05

Gurode isn't that good, using a pro-bowl nod as an example? :laugh: Dude Flozell & Roy Boy went to the pro-bowl..... proves how useless the "pro-bowl" argument is :rotflmao:

Sparano coached them up to give up 49 sacks in 05, 37 in 06 ( more than the Cards... where Davis gave up 8 sacks alone), and last in the NFC East in all lineman based stats, sacks allowed, rushing, YPC.... the Poke OL is bad, and has been that way every season under the guidance of your so called " OL guru"

and you don't pay top dollar to a 6 year vet that needs to be coached up :doh:

[bubba9497]

Last I checked, the Giants offensive line was one of the most undisciplined in the league.

Constantly leading the league in false starts and unsportsmanlike penalties.


thats not entirely true, but if they were one of the most undisciplined OLs in the league. what does that say for guru Sparano and the pokes OL? The giants gave up more than a dozen fewer sacks, and were much better rushing & had a much better YPC avg. than Dallas by far :laugh:

also, just curious, why do you always try to shift the argument to some other team, instead of defending the pokes with actual facts? :whoknows:

[KingGibbs]

I almost want to sit at the six spot on draft day now. Adams or Anderson could have a field day with Davis if they put him at RT.

[tr1]

If Big was so good at guard, why'd the Cards move him to tackle, where he was pathetic?

I'm anxious to see him at guard in the puke's below average o-line.

[ptr77]

thats not entirely true, but if they were one of the most undisciplined OLs in the league. what does that say for guru Sparano and the pokes OL? The giants gave up more than a dozen fewer sacks, and were much better rushing & had a much better YPC avg. than Dallas by far :laugh:

also, just curious, why do you always try to shift the argument to some other team, instead of defending the pokes with actual facts? :whoknows:

Good question. Love that post as well, just straight facts.

[HeHateMe]

good fact spinning

Columbo was a "bust" because of a busted leg, nothing else.... and he wasn't that good, just better than the turnstile that played RT in 05

Gurode isn't that good, using a pro-bowl nod as an example? :laugh: Dude Flozell & Roy Boy went to the pro-bowl..... proves how useless the "pro-bowl" argument is :rotflmao:

Sparano coached them up to give up 49 sacks in 05, 37 in 06 ( more than the Cards... where Davis gave up 8 sacks alone), and last in the NFC East in all lineman based stats, sacks allowed, rushing, YPC.... the Poke OL is bad, and has been that way every season under the guidance of your so called " OL guru"

and you don't pay top dollar to a 6 year vet that needs to be coached up :doh:

Again, if "bad" is "good" enough to be 4th overall in points scored in the NFL and a FG away from being 2nd, I'll take it.

Especially now with a better RG than we had last season.

[HeHateMe]

thats not entirely true, but if they were one of the most undisciplined OLs in the league. what does that say for guru Sparano and the pokes OL? The giants gave up more than a dozen fewer sacks, and were much better rushing & had a much better YPC avg. than Dallas by far :laugh:

also, just curious, why do you always try to shift the argument to some other team, instead of defending the pokes with actual facts? :whoknows:

Because Tiki was much better and getting yards than Jones was. That goes to the YPC.

As for the sacks, we all know Bledsoe, and now Romo to some degree, tend to hold the ball just a little too long.

Sure some of the sacks were on the offensive line, but its a well known fact that Bledsoe was responsible for a lot of his, and Romo didnt help the situation that much either.

But hey, again, hang your hat on the YPC and sacks allowed stats, I'm taking WHAT MATTERS MOST. POINTS SCORED.

But being a Redskins fan, you wouldnt know much about that. ;)

As for pointing to the Giants, prt77 is consistently speaking about the Giants, and only the Giants, so I just like to see why he likes to throw rocks at glass houses, when he, himself, resides in one.

[HeHateMe]

I see... So this sparano turns all linemen into studs does he? Good for him. Columbo came from Boston College, Boston College is known for making hard working, blue collar, nfl linemen. Davis is a lazy underahiever known for what exactly?

I just have faith in his ability to get the most out of players.

He's done it with Adams, Columbo, Gurode and even Kozier.

I have no reason to think he wont make Davis a better player.

[ptr77]

Because Tiki was much better and getting yards than Jones was. That goes to the YPC.

As for the sacks, we all know Bledsoe, and now Romo to some degree, tend to hold the ball just a little too long.

Sure some of the sacks were on the offensive line, but its a well known fact that Bledsoe was responsible for a lot of his, and Romo didnt help the situation that much either.

But hey, again, hang your hat on the YPC and sacks allowed stats, I'm taking WHAT MATTERS MOST. POINTS SCORED.

But being a Redskins fan, you wouldnt know much about that. ;)

As for pointing to the Giants, prt77 is consistently speaking about the Giants, and only the Giants, so I just like to see why he likes to throw rocks at glass houses, when he, himself, resides in one.

TO, Glenn, Crayton, Jones, Barber, Witten
I think they may have helped with POINTS SCORED


I also blame eli for every sack the giants took, and how do you explain jacobs ypc when he was a short yardage back?
Notice how YOU are still talking about the giants???

[ptr77]

I just have faith in his ability to get the most out of players.

He's done it with Adams, Columbo, Gurode and even Kozier.

I have no reason to think he wont make Davis a better player.

Columbo was injured, gurode took him 6 years, Adams has regressed, rivera regressed, kosier was average his entire career and was average for dallas. He must be a hell of a doctor.

[HeHateMe]

TO, Glenn, Crayton, Jones, Barber, Witten
I think they may have helped with POINTS SCORED


I also blame eli for every sack the giants took, and how do you explain jacobs ypc when he was a short yardage back?
Notice how YOU are still talking about the giants???

Last I checked, it starts in the trenches.

Those excellent talents you just named, by the way, you left out the league leader in TD receptions, wouldnt have scored all those points without the proper pass/run blocking that was afforded them.

[HeHateMe]

Columbo was injured, gurode took him 6 years, Adams has regressed, rivera regressed, kosier was average his entire career and was average for dallas. He must be a hell of a doctor.

Columbo was injured, and not given a shot by any other team.

Gurode started strong, regressed, then stepped it back up.

Kozier was better this season than any other season in his career.

And Flozell played pretty well for one season removed from an ACL.