Manuel White and Nehemiah Broughton

[project myu]

I remember back in 2005, there was a backlash about drafting these two guys when we had more pressing needs. On the other side, there were an equal number of people scolding those who questioned those moves, saying that coaches know best (a la TJ Duckett backlash).

Just wondering - are these two guys still in the Redskins' future?

[#21Taylor4Ever]

I think after we signed Sellers longterm, both of these guys just became useless to us. They may give us some ST depth, but I can't see either helping anywhere else.

I thought maybe White would be a nice short yardage guy, but we have Sellers/The Rock for that.

[xxprodigyxx]

I remember back in 2005, there was a backlash about drafting these two guys when we had more pressing needs. On the other side, there were an equal number of people scolding those who questioned those moves, saying that coaches know best (a la TJ Duckett backlash).

Just wondering - are these two guys still in the Redskins' future?

I don't know about White, but Broughton is useless. He doesn't run the way the should with his size. Mike Sellers is far superior.

[Troy Fakeman]

"Decepticon. Prepare to face Fortress Maximus"

[Smoot Point Really]

I haven't a clue, and I'm not sure it matters so much. They will probably have a place in training camp, but do they deserve a spot on the active roster? I doubt it. If they haven't made an impact in the NFL yet, it's doubtful they will. However, I'm sure the Jesse Lumsden fans out there will unite and make an argument against what I say.

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I would think that Manuel White Jr., would've been converted to a TE cause he was used as a H-Back.

Nemo Broughton is a good FB back up to Sellers, lets just see if he makes the regular 53 man roster this year. Broughton has materialized more than White, but White has been on injuried reserve for 2 years. huh? Yeah..

[flexxskins]

Both made the cut last year, so obviously the coaches see something in them that we are not able to see.

BTW, is White still even on the team?

[Smoot Point Really]

BTW, I always look forward to Troy Fakeman's posts... I love the video.

[TheLongshot]

I think after we signed Sellers longterm, both of these guys just became useless to us. They may give us some ST depth, but I can't see either helping anywhere else.

I disagree with this, because Sellers isn't exactly a spring chicken. They probably should have a backup to him, and I don't think Rock is that backup right now.

That being said, they will have to work hard to earn a spot on this team. White is behind the 8 ball because he's been hurt every year since he was drafted. Nemo is more likely to stick around, because he has shown value as a special teamer.

Jason

[Chump Bailey]

My biggest gripe aside from need IMO was that we passed on Brandon Jacobs and went with those two...

[Thinking Skins]

wasted pics

[nightbird]

Well Jacobs was taken around the top of the 4th that year, and I don't think we had a pick in the second or third since we traded up so much to take Campbell.

I will say Manny White and Robert McCune were wasted picks though, and just another example of how terrible we are at drafting.

We could have had Chris Canty and/or Trent Cole.

Nemo was a 7th rounder i think and those are just shots in the dark so i cant get upset about that. Maybe he'll be Sellers' heir.

[SRBFan]

White isn't even on the team. He was picked up by Miami late last season, though I'm not sure who he's with at this moment (it's not the Skins).

[dwills1]

i saw both of these guys play in camp and in pre season. they give hope to semi pro players looking to further their career because they are a joke! nemo and man white need to be put in the diamond football league (minor league)

[Chump Bailey]

Well Jacobs was taken around the top of the 4th that year, and I don't think we had a pick in the second or third since we traded up so much to take Campbell.


Brandon Jacobs pick # 110 round four

Manuel White pick # 120 round four


He was there, but we decided to pass on him...

[TheLongshot]

I will say Manny White and Robert McCune were wasted picks though, and just another example of how terrible we are at drafting.

We could have had Chris Canty and/or Trent Cole.

It is easy to make great picks in hindsight.

Was it predictable, tho, that White would be injured two straight years?

As for McCune, I think he was a good value pick in the 5th round. Certainly, his talent was worth taking a risk on him. Unfortunately, he never quite developed into that player we wanted, at least in his first two years. (Who knows how he will do in Miami.) Such is the way of the draft. You don't hit on everyone.

Jason

[project myu]

It is easy to make great picks in hindsight.

Was it predictable, tho, that White would be injured two straight years?

As for McCune, I think he was a good value pick in the 5th round. Certainly, his talent was worth taking a risk on him. Unfortunately, he never quite developed into that player we wanted, at least in his first two years. (Who knows how he will do in Miami.) Such is the way of the draft. You don't hit on everyone.

Jason


This is the exact reason that I made this thread. This isn't about hindsight AT ALL. At the time, there were many confounded and questioning the picks only to be told to STFU. Even back then, people were clamoring for something to be done about our defensive line.

http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100284
http://extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=100285

And still, those who question Redskins moves are told to STFU because the coaches and front office know infinitely better..

[Drunken Master III]

total waste.... two fullbacks... are you kidding me?

[TheGreek1973]

I have said it about 50 time but I will say it again. I was pissed off when we took White because we could have had Canty. Imagine doing that. A very solid to great DE with very little money plus he wouldn't be in a Dallas uniform. Heck we wouldn't need Carter either.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Brandon Jacobs pick # 110 round four

Manuel White pick # 120 round four


He was there, but we decided to pass on him...Please take another look at this. This might be the most obviously stupid thing ever said on this board.(I'll give you a hint, 120 comes AFTER 110, Chump)

[Darth Tater]

Neither Nemo nor Manny were selected to be future starters (heck, to even make the squad, those picks have less than a 1 in 3 chance on a team that has a top-drawer scouting department). They were taken as depth guys and contributors to teams (Manny was going to have to change positions). Also, taking multiple guys at one position is often done with hi-lo picks. Its a bonus when you get a guy taken that late who becomes anything more than a backup, a special-teams guy or a servicable starter. Assuming a standard two back form and using a more traditional roster, you keep 3 HBs and 2 FBs. In that case, Nemo was taken to be the number 3 HB and Manny was taken to be the number 2 FB. Even then, with both still on the roster, I'd say they've exceeded expectations.

[Grimm]

I can't see both of these guys being on the team next year. I would give the edge to Nemo right now as he has played some and White has been hurt for two years, unless White can move to TE/HB and show he can play on special teams.

[Darth Tater]

I think after we signed Sellers longterm, both of these guys just became useless to us. They may give us some ST depth, but I can't see either helping anywhere else.

I thought maybe White would be a nice short yardage guy, but we have Sellers/The Rock for that.
How? First, you need the best 3-4 FBs you can find and the best 5-6 HBs for TC. Second, you need guys to fill out your special teams (you even mention that, so I don't understand how you can think them useless). Third, you need depth (2 FBs and 3 HBs). Our primary short-yardage guy IS Portis (he actually is one of the better short-yardage guys out there). So, yes Captain Nemo is out but as #3 HB (Portis, Betts, Rock) baring injury and ends up as the #2 or #3 FB.

[dfbovey]

My biggest gripe aside from need IMO was that we passed on Brandon Jacobs and went with those two...

I was more upset that we passed on Canty, who would have been a nice pickup to help out our defensive line.

[JaimeDeCurry]

I remember back in 2005, there was a backlash about drafting these two guys when we had more pressing needs. On the other side, there were an equal number of people scolding those who questioned those moves, saying that coaches know best (a la TJ Duckett backlash).

Just wondering - are these two guys still in the Redskins' future?



For what it's worth, Broughton's now listed as the #2 FB behind Sellers. I read an article about him bulking up and learning from Sellers about how to play the position at the NFL level. Nemo was used mainly as a blocker his freshman year of college, but as soon as his sophomore year rolled around, he took off. He basically carried his team to every win they got that season. He's passionate, disciplined, and I seriously think he has the skills to play solidly in the NFL once he makes the transition.

I'm probably a bit biased (I'm a big Nemo fan; we both went to the same school), but I know for a fact that he loves being a Redskin and I can see him as a starter when Sellers is no longer with the team.

[TheDane]

What part of "wasted picks" are people not comprehending?

Two years and JACK **** for contribution. In this era, that implies waste.

Once upon a time, teams were able to stash players in the hopes that they would turn into something. That's almost impossible now, but particularly impossible when these players have shown absolutely nothing.

[F Landry]

I think after we signed Sellers longterm, both of these guys just became useless to us. They may give us some ST depth, but I can't see either helping anywhere else.

I thought maybe White would be a nice short yardage guy, but we have Sellers/The Rock for that.
A short yardage guy, with fumble fingers, who is 5'6...

Hmm...

I'm sensing a little bias here. :laugh:

I love Rock just as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pretend hes some amazing RB. Hes a ST leader and a good locker room guy, IMO.

[nightbird]

Brandon Jacobs pick # 110 round four

Manuel White pick # 120 round four


He was there, but we decided to pass on him...

Um, dude, did you even read what you just typed?

We took Carlos and JC in the 1st round. Brandon Jacobs was OFF THE BOARD by the time we got to our fourth rounder, which we used on Manny.

[project myu]

For what it's worth, Broughton's now listed as the #2 FB behind Sellers. I read an article about him bulking up and learning from Sellers about how to play the position at the NFL level. Nemo was used mainly as a blocker his freshman year of college, but as soon as his sophomore year rolled around, he took off. He basically carried his team to every win they got that season. He's passionate, disciplined, and I seriously think he has the skills to play solidly in the NFL once he makes the transition.

I'm probably a bit biased (I'm a big Nemo fan; we both went to the same school), but I know for a fact that he loves being a Redskin and I can see him as a starter when Sellers is no longer with the team.


I hope you are right and I will come back to this thread to eat crow after the 2007 season.

[JaimeDeCurry]

What part of "wasted picks" are people not comprehending?

Two years and JACK **** for contribution. In this era, that implies waste.

Once upon a time, teams were able to stash players in the hopes that they would turn into something. That's almost impossible now, but particularly impossible when these players have shown absolutely nothing.


What part of "#2 on the depth chart" are you not comprehending?

Broughton spent 2 years as a RB on a team loaded with talent at that position, and still managed to impress the coaches enough to keep him and groom him to be a FB. He's going to be a solid backup to Sellers/possible future starter. I don't see that as "wasting" a 7th round pick. Depth is just as important as starter talent in this league.

[Hooper]

Two terrible picks. The mid to later rounds is where Cerrato and company have really failed. For every Chris Cooley, there's ten Robert McCunes. No wonder the front office doesn't mind giving away draft picks like candy.

[TheDane]

What part of "#2 on the depth chart" are you not comprehending?

Broughton spent 2 years as a RB on a team loaded with talent at that position, and still managed to impress the coaches enough to keep him and groom him to be a FB. He's going to be a solid backup to Sellers/possible future starter. I don't see that as "wasting" a 7th round pick. Depth is just as important as starter talent in this league.

Right.

I focus on results. What do you focus on?

It's unreasonable to expect that a 7th rounder would pan out. I will always forgive anyone for whiffing on a 7th rounder, even a 6th. Nemo wasn't a waste since he likely was never going to be anything in the NFL in the first place.

But Manuel White and Robert McCune were wastes.

[TheLongshot]

This is the exact reason that I made this thread. This isn't about hindsight AT ALL.

The hindsight comment had nothing to do with your post, just the guy I was responding to.


At the time, there were many confounded and questioning the picks only to be told to STFU. Even back then, people were clamoring for something to be done about our defensive line.

And I was one of those guys as well. I was disappointed as well that yet again we didn't draft a DL.

At the same time, tho, it eventually became clear why we drafted White. It was obvious in training camp that he was drafted to be an H-Back, and was learning that position. When Saunders was brought in, he was working at FB. Considering that Sellars was on the wrong side of 30, and it looks like Cooley is being worked more and more at TE, I could see why they made the pick, especially if they felt that he was special.

Unfortunately, he's been riding IR the past couple of years, which isn't beneficial to keeping yourself on an NFL team. If he had stayed healthy, who knows?

People critisized the Nemo pick later, but you don't know in the 4th round that Nemo will still be there in the 7th. Also, at that point you are picking the best player available, and he certainly fits that description.


And still, those who question Redskins moves are told to STFU because the coaches and front office know infinitely better..

The problem is, is that they do. They have guys who work full time to go to all the colleges, see all the players, look at all the film. They have much more information to look at. They also have a better idea of what their needs are for their team, and what they look for in players.

For us, we usually only see the top players in college, and have to depend on other people to tell us about anyone else. We don't know that much about technique and what constitutes natural ability.

So, yeah, we are kinda dependent on our staff to make the right decisions and trust them on that. Course, even with the greatest decisions in the world, the draft is still a crapshoot. Just because you made the right choice at the time doesn't mean that the guy will pan out. McCune is a good example of that. Based on the information we had at the time, he was a great choice in the 5th round. Unfortunately, he never worked out here. That happens all the time throughout the league.

Jason

[Chump Bailey]

Um, dude, did you even read what you just typed?

We took Carlos and JC in the 1st round. Brandon Jacobs was OFF THE BOARD by the time we got to our fourth rounder, which we used on Manny.


My fault - you're right. I was doing a few things simultaneously at work...

[Chump Bailey]

Please take another look at this. This might be the most obviously stupid thing ever said on this board.(I'll give you a hint, 120 comes AFTER 110, Chump)


It was a mistake dude - **** me.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

It was a mistake dude - **** me.That's why I said IT was stupid, not YOU were stupid. Although, things change.

[flexxskins]

What part of "wasted picks" are people not comprehending?

Two years and JACK **** for contribution. In this era, that implies waste.

Once upon a time, teams were able to stash players in the hopes that they would turn into something. That's almost impossible now, but particularly impossible when these players have shown absolutely nothing.


Right.

I focus on results. What do you focus on?

It's unreasonable to expect that a 7th rounder would pan out. I will always forgive anyone for whiffing on a 7th rounder, even a 6th. Nemo wasn't a waste since he likely was never going to be anything in the NFL in the first place.You are kind of contradicting yourself, aren't you?

BTW, White isn't even on the team anymore fella's. Why are we even dicussing him?

[Chump Bailey]

That's why I said IT was stupid, not YOU were stupid. Although, things change.

Try phrasing it better next time then. It's a mistake - everyone makes them from time to time including you.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Again - **** me dude...Where? You'll need to be more specific.

[Chump Bailey]

Where? You'll need to be more specific.

Dude, come on...

You actually think your post could not be construed as a personal attack? I responded in kind out of anger. You and I both know people make mistakes - right??? So why be so petty about it? Point out the mistake and move on.

[flexxskins]

This is the way that I am viewing the Nemo thing. Nemo is a bigger, faster and younger version of TJ Duckett. He has been with us for a less amount of time than Dockery and has definitely played less. Yet, year after year fans were saying that Doc could be coached up to being one of the most dominating Guards in the league. Well, it's a matter of opinion here on wheather Doc has become that...(not.)

My point is that Nemo is still here. Therefore, the coaches must see something in him that they like or he would be gone. The simple fact that a 7th rounder is still even around is a miricle in itself. The only thing that makes me believe that they don't have any real confidence in him is the fact that we made that ridiculous trade for Duckett last season. Other than that, lets see him in action again in preseason and hope that he is ready to take the next step. Where's the harm in that?

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Dude, come on...

You actually think your post could not be construed as a personal attack? I responded in kind out of anger. You and I both know people make mistakes - right??? So why be so petty about it? Point out the mistake and move on.See, that was a joke, IN AN ATTEMPT TO MOVE ON. At least you didn't ALSO misconstrue that. Clearly, your admittedly (stupid) post was a one-time deal.

I think Broughton is useless except for Special Teams, and right now we have enough solid teamers. White is better out of the backfield, has better hands and has better size to be a blocker. I really hope Broughton is not our backup FB this year. White has just been injured, so it's hard to say what can be expected from him. I would like to us see us spend one of our late-round picks on a Le'ron McLain or Cory Anderson. It's not a position of great need and there are always stop-gap FA options like William Henderson still available. Hopefully White can stay healthy because he has the most potential.

[Darth Tater]

Two terrible picks. The mid to later rounds is where Cerrato and company have really failed. For every Chris Cooley, there's ten Robert McCunes. No wonder the front office doesn't mind giving away draft picks like candy.
Not as terrible as most teams with a GM!

[Chump Bailey]

My point is that Nemo is still here. Therefore, the coaches must see something in him that they like or he would be gone. The simple fact that a 7th rounder is still even around is a miricle in itself. The only thing that makes me believe that they don't have any real confidence in him is the fact that we made that ridiculous trade for Duckett last season. Other than that, lets see him in action again in preseason and hope that he is ready to take the next step. Where's the harm in that?


He played well the couple of times he was on special teams - made a couple of good hits if memory serves. He's not good running the ball however IMO - at all.

[Chump Bailey]

See, that was a joke, IN AN ATTEMPT TO MOVE ON. At least you didn't ALSO misconstrue that. Clearly, your admittedly (stupid) post was a one-time deal.

I think Broughton is useless except for Special Teams, and right now we have enough solid teamers. White is better out of the backfield, has better hands and has better size to be a blocker. I really hope Broughton is not our backup FB this year. White has just been injured, so it's hard to say what can be expected from him. I would like to us see us spend one of our late-round picks on a Le'ron McLain or Cory Anderson. It's not a position of great need and there are always stop-gap FA options like William Henderson still available. Hopefully White can stay healthy because he has the most potential.


I may have a few more stupid posts left in me yet...:D

no sweat - let's move on STG...

[Hooper]

Not as terrible as most teams with a GM!

Worse actually.

[flexxskins]

He played well the couple of times he was on special teams - made a couple of good hits if memory serves. He's not good running the ball however IMO - at all.Yeah, he gets down field in a hurry for a big guy. As far as him carrying the rock, I do remember him looking apprehensive/timid and kind of running with his head down a little. He shows his speed, agility and weight on teams, but he hasn't really showed those gifts off carrying the ball yet.

[project myu]

The hindsight comment had nothing to do with your post, just the guy I was responding to.

And I was one of those guys as well. I was disappointed as well that yet again we didn't draft a DL.

At the same time, tho, it eventually became clear why we drafted White. It was obvious in training camp that he was drafted to be an H-Back, and was learning that position. When Saunders was brought in, he was working at FB. Considering that Sellars was on the wrong side of 30, and it looks like Cooley is being worked more and more at TE, I could see why they made the pick, especially if they felt that he was special.

Unfortunately, he's been riding IR the past couple of years, which isn't beneficial to keeping yourself on an NFL team. If he had stayed healthy, who knows?

People critisized the Nemo pick later, but you don't know in the 4th round that Nemo will still be there in the 7th. Also, at that point you are picking the best player available, and he certainly fits that description.


The fact that we have to try to somehow rationalize the picks just proves they were the wrong picks to make at the time. Why were we looking to groom someone behind Cooley and Sellers when we had glaring needs (and still do)?


The problem is, is that they do. They have guys who work full time to go to all the colleges, see all the players, look at all the film. They have much more information to look at. They also have a better idea of what their needs are for their team, and what they look for in players.

For us, we usually only see the top players in college, and have to depend on other people to tell us about anyone else. We don't know that much about technique and what constitutes natural ability.

So, yeah, we are kinda dependent on our staff to make the right decisions and trust them on that. Course, even with the greatest decisions in the world, the draft is still a crapshoot. Just because you made the right choice at the time doesn't mean that the guy will pan out. McCune is a good example of that. Based on the information we had at the time, he was a great choice in the 5th round. Unfortunately, he never worked out here. That happens all the time throughout the league.

Jason

Unfortunately, they may have a lot more knowledge than us fans, but that does not equate to common sense.

We need help on the defensive line. We need depth at the offensive line. And we waste picks on running backs.

We trade two draft picks for TJ Duckett when we had Betts, Cartwright, and Sellers.

We give Brunell way too much leeway in 2004 and 2006 when it's obvious a change needs to be made.

We keep starting Holdman and don't hold him accountable for anything when he's been an obvious problem for two years straight.

These are all things that seemed like common sense, and yet the Redskins defied it and still have nothing to show for it. That is why it's frustrating to see replies along the lines of, "STFU, they make millions so they know better than you."

[Blondie]

He played well the couple of times he was on special teams - made a couple of good hits if memory serves. He's not good running the ball however IMO - at all.


Yeah, he gets down field in a hurry for a big guy. As far as him carrying the rock, I do remember him looking apprehensive/timid and kind of running with his head down a little. He shows his speed, agility and weight on teams, but he hasn't really showed those gifts off carrying the ball yet.


Looking at his stats......he only played in 2 games last year. Had 2 tackles on STs and nothing else on stats. He didn't run the ball at all last year and only had one attempt in 2005.

It seems he might be a last resort.

[redskin48]

It is easy to make great picks in hindsight.

Was it predictable, tho, that White would be injured two straight years?

As for McCune, I think he was a good value pick in the 5th round. Certainly, his talent was worth taking a risk on him. Unfortunately, he never quite developed into that player we wanted, at least in his first two years. (Who knows how he will do in Miami.) Such is the way of the draft. You don't hit on everyone.

Jason

I fell the same way. Also, You have to consider all of the good picks we have made.

[flexxskins]

Looking at his stats......he only played in 2 games last year. Had 2 tackles on STs and nothing else on stats. He didn't run the ball at all last year and only had one attempt in 2005.

It seems he might be a last resort.Yeah, I was primarily basing my opinions on his preseason performances.

[Seabee1973]

A short yardage guy, with fumble fingers, who is 5'6...

Hmm...

I'm sensing a little bias here. :laugh:

I love Rock just as much as the next guy, but I'm not going to pretend hes some amazing RB. Hes a ST leader and a good locker room guy, IMO.


our current back up is fumble fingers also.

[TheDane]

You are kind of contradicting yourself, aren't you?


If by contradicting yourself, you mean not contradicting myself at all, then yes.

[JaimeDeCurry]

I think Broughton is useless except for Special Teams, and right now we have enough solid teamers. White is better out of the backfield, has better hands and has better size to be a blocker.

He's also not on the team anymore.


I really hope Broughton is not our backup FB this year.

He is. He spent part of last season and will spend this offseason/preseason learning from Sellers how to be an NFL fullback. Personally, I can't think of a better FB to learn from. Sellers is a monster and will hopefully elevate Nemo's level of play and turn him into a solid starter for the future.

[TheLongshot]

The fact that we have to try to somehow rationalize the picks just proves they were the wrong picks to make at the time. Why were we looking to groom someone behind Cooley and Sellers when we had glaring needs (and still do)?

Because in the second day of the draft, you don't pick for need. You pick the best players available. That's because the guys from the 4th round onward all have issues of one kind or another.

Now, we can argue until we are blue in the face whether or not White or Canty were the best players available, but we don't know how the front office rated them, or what they saw in both players. Maybe they didn't like what they saw in Canty. That being said, Canty hasn't exactly been a sack machine in Dallas.


Unfortunately, they may have a lot more knowledge than us fans, but that does not equate to common sense.

We need help on the defensive line. We need depth at the offensive line. And we waste picks on running backs.

Certainly. But, you don't make picks just because you have a need. That is about as wasteful as you claim the White pick was.

And considering some of the opinions expressed on this board, a lot of fans don't have common sense. I don't think common sense is all that common.


We trade two draft picks for TJ Duckett when we had Betts, Cartwright, and Sellers.

Will people please stop posting this. There is absolutely no evidence that we have given up a second pick for Duckett, and considering the spirit of the deal, the 3rd round pick should have been enough to satisfy the deal. Until someone produces evidence that we have given up a 4th next year, let's put this to rest.

This and everything that follows is beside the point. It has nothing to do with drafting players, which is the subject of this post. Most of it isn't even about FO decisions, but coaching decisions.

Jason

[stwasm]

Two terrible picks. The mid to later rounds is where Cerrato and company have really failed. For every Chris Cooley, there's ten Robert McCunes. No wonder the front office doesn't mind giving away draft picks like candy.

Cerrato's ineptitude concerning the lower rounds was demonstrated in a story a poster mentioned a couple of months ago. He recalls the year we drafted LaVar and Chris Samuels. After we drafted the two an exchange between Cerrato and Norv Turner went something like this:

Cerrato: "Guess we're done here, eh?"
Turner: "No, the real work begins with the lower rounds."

PUH-LEEZE, HIRE A REAL GM!!!!!! :doh:

[nightbird]

There is a VERY vocal segment of this board that is intolerant of criticism against the Front Office...at least they don't want to hear anyone criticize personnel moves done since Gibbs came back.

If you say it was stupid to draft McCune/ trade for Duckett / let Royal go / trade up for Rocky, they say "how dare you" and, "we have to wait and see."

Then, after you wait and see that the move stunk to high heaven, they say "well duh, you have the benefit of hindsight" or "no, it was a good move at the time,"

You can't win.

And I don't care if we lose next year's 4th rounder in the Duckett deal. They shouldn't have traded a bologna sandwich for him.

[flexxskins]

If by contradicting yourself, you mean not contradicting myself at all, then yes.Judging from your answer, you are taking my comment as some type of insult or something. Whatever.

Seeing as the subjects are Nemo and White and your first quote eluded to you believing that they both were wasted picks, your second quote seem to contradict that quote when you said that "Nemo wasn't a waste since he likely was never going to be anything in the NFL in the first place."

Maybe we just have different definitions of contradiction. However, at this point who really cares?

[Blondie]

Yeah, I was primarily basing my opinions on his preseason performances.

Ah.........the scrubs against the scrubs much of the time there, however. ;)


There is a VERY vocal segment of this board that is intolerant of criticism against the Front Office...at least they don't want to hear anyone criticize personnel moves done since Gibbs came back.

If you say it was stupid to draft McCune/ trade for Duckett / let Royal go / trade up for Rocky, they say "how dare you" and, "we have to wait and see."

Then, after you wait and see that the move stunk to high heaven, they say "well duh, you have the benefit of hindsight" or "no, it was a good move at the time,"

You can't win.

And I don't care if we lose next year's 4th rounder in the Duckett deal. They shouldn't have traded a bologna sandwich for him.

I do not understand some of the moves that are made....and sometimes I do not agree with what they have done......however.....I am not in on all of the discussions or strategies........I just see the finished product. Hindsight is SO 20-20. When TJ came in here.......so many were THRILLED......."man he is awesome in short yardage." "he can be a #1" "might as well cut Rock" among many of the posts. Well.........somehow........he didnt pan out. WHY? :whoknows:

Oh, one can say....."THEY DIDNT PLAY HIM". Well, DUH. The question is then WHY NOT?!! When he did get in there........he didnt do anything. Could it be that he just didnt get it?

I wont trash the front office. I just sit and think.

And sometimes I just sit.

;)

[TheLongshot]

If you say it was stupid to draft McCune/ trade for Duckett / let Royal go / trade up for Rocky, they say "how dare you" and, "we have to wait and see."

I think you have some selective memory of some of these things. I didn't see anyone crititizing the pick of McCune. In fact, the board quickly fell in love with him. It is only now that people say he was a "wasted pick".

A lot of people were excited about the Duckett trade. I wasn't one of those people, tho I did have a "wait and see" attitude toward it. It was the only time I was disappointed in waiting and seeing.

A lot of people were perfectly fine in kicking Royal to the curb. I think it was the right decision, particularly since Yoder is probably a better blocker and comes much cheaper than Royal.

As for Rocky, we still have to wait and see, since we haven't seen him play all that much, but considering our needs, it is hard to argue against what we did, seeing how the draft fell.

In the end, tho, a lot of times you do have to wait and see before you can judge a move. Even after a year, you don't always have the full picture of a player. Sometimes, you don't know until two or three years down the road. This is why grading drafts right after they happen is silly.

Jason

[project myu]

All I know is, if I see someone tell someone else to STFU because coaches and front office know better...

[Greekdude]

Please take another look at this. This might be the most obviously stupid thing ever said on this board.(I'll give you a hint, 120 comes AFTER 110, Chump)

Hahahahah was gonna say the same thing:cheers:

[nightbird]

I think you have some selective memory of some of these things. I didn't see anyone crititizing the pick of McCune. In fact, the board quickly fell in love with him. It is only now that people say he was a "wasted pick".

A lot of people were excited about the Duckett trade. I wasn't one of those people, tho I did have a "wait and see" attitude toward it. It was the only time I was disappointed in waiting and seeing.

A lot of people were perfectly fine in kicking Royal to the curb. I think it was the right decision, particularly since Yoder is probably a better blocker and comes much cheaper than Royal.

As for Rocky, we still have to wait and see, since we haven't seen him play all that much, but considering our needs, it is hard to argue against what we did, seeing how the draft fell.

In the end, tho, a lot of times you do have to wait and see before you can judge a move. Even after a year, you don't always have the full picture of a player. Sometimes, you don't know until two or three years down the road. This is why grading drafts right after they happen is silly.

Jason

I know, a lot of people developed quick man-crushes on McCune, and they thought Fauria was an upgrade over Royal, etc. I just pulled those out as examples. I felt Royal was a good player and a locker room plus, and I'd never heard of McCune so I was more than willing to see how it played out.

We can judge all these on a case by case basis, but my point is there are a lot of people on here, some who use very strident language, who basically say FU to anyone who dares question the wisdom of our front office.

Well excuse me, but I pay a helluva lot of money to support this team, I'll be a fan long after Vinny Corrado is gone and I'm tired of watching my beloved skins play bad football because they make the same stupid mistakes.

I love the way things have gone this offseason and I hope we've turned a corner and won't be doing a lot of that nonsense anymore.

But don't tell me I shouldn't speak up when I see them making a bone-headed decision because I'm not at their meetings in Ashburn. Apparently I didn't have to watch a lot of film to know that Warrick Holdman stinks.

[flexxskins]

Hahahahah was gonna say the same thing:cheers:Here...

[Mooka]

Here's the thing about Manuel. We took a gamble and lost. Had he stayed healthy, he's got the talent to be a starting HB, FB or H-back for an NFL team. His injuries were the reason he slipped so far down, I believe he was projected as a 2nd-3rd round pick.

At UCLA he really did it all, ran between and outside the tackles, goal-line back, lead blocker, and he caught the ball out of the backfield. Imagine trying to stop Manel lead blocking for Maurice Jones Drew... :yikes:

But yea, injuries... . :(


As for Nemo, well 7th round pick out of the Citadel. The fact he's on an NFL roster in impressive.

[TheLongshot]

We can judge all these on a case by case basis, but my point is there are a lot of people on here, some who use very strident language, who basically say FU to anyone who dares question the wisdom of our front office.

While we can like or not like a particular move, whether or not it was a good move or not isn't usually known for a while.

For example, I didn't like the trade for Duckett, but I had a wait-and-see attitude to see what the coaching staff did with him. In the end, my opinion was justified, but I didn't really know until most of the way through the season.

What I take issue with are those who KNOW that X is a bad move, or insist that every move that isn't obvious is a bad move. For the most part, I'd rather just see how things play out.

Is getting Fletcher a good move? Hard to know now, but based on his past performance and his experience with this staff, it looks like it can be. But, for all I know, it could end up like Barrow. The opposite could be true of Arch, who lost his starting job, but we don't fully know why. He could bounce back and win his starting job back, or he could be traded or released. We don't know.

Jason

[SkinsTillIDie]

http://football.about.com/od/nfldrafthistory/a/2005draftdaytwo.htm

This is the 4th round of the 2005 draft. Check the latter of this round, after 120, and the rest of the draft - you'll find that the vast vast majority of these players haven't made any impact on their respective teams.

You can't expect to find starters in these rounds, or even consistent depth. For every player that you draft, that is a veteran you have to release from the 53 man roster, or the practice squad. If we have 7 picks, obviously we must cut 7 others, and this isn't always reasonable.

And hindsight is always 20|20

[ceviker]

I think after we signed Sellers longterm, both of these guys just became useless to us. They may give us some ST depth, but I can't see either helping anywhere else.

I thought maybe White would be a nice short yardage guy, but we have Sellers/The Rock for that.


Well there ya go!

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

He is. He spent part of last season and will spend this offseason/preseason learning from Sellers how to be an NFL fullback. Personally, I can't think of a better FB to learn from. Sellers is a monster and will hopefully elevate Nemo's level of play and turn him into a solid starter for the future.I think you mean that he is currently penciled in as the #2. Broughton is not a good blocker. He's not a good runner. He doesn't catch the ball very well. He does seem to do all right on special teams. He has very little future in NFL. I was shocked we drafted him in the first place. I would say the probability is VERY high that we draft a late round FB or at least bring in some well scouted UDFA's. Perhaps even a seasoned vet. I will be shocked if one of the above does not beat him out.

[dent19]

Another sign that the FO sucks.....
But every team has draft busts.....
Since we trade most our picks, the ones we keep should be a lot better the what we have done......
Not all are Bad.... but most are......

[jimster]

Manual White was drafted to be an H-back to back-up Cooley. He went on IR his first year, then the offense changed and there was no more H-back in this offense. Then in year 2 he is asked to learn the TE position - his third position in 3 years. Got hurt again, IR again. I wouldn't close the book on him just yet.

Nemo was a seventh round draft pick, low risk pick who the team thought was worth a shot to see if he could turn into the big back to keep on the roster. - He played pretty well in his rookie pre-season, but fumbled a few times. We didn't see much of him last year.

McCune was drafted to be a special teamer with hope that he could be groomed as a MLB someday. Problem was Khary Campbell kept out-performing him on special teams, so he was put on the PS two straight years.

[JaimeDeCurry]

I think you mean that he is currently penciled in as the #2. Broughton is not a good blocker. He's not a good runner. He doesn't catch the ball very well. He does seem to do all right on special teams. He has very little future in NFL. I was shocked we drafted him in the first place. I would say the probability is VERY high that we draft a late round FB or at least bring in some well scouted UDFA's. Perhaps even a seasoned vet. I will be shocked if one of the above does not beat him out.

1. Correct. He is currently the #2 fullback on the roster, and I've seen no indication that the coaches plan on changing that. If you have, let me know.

2. He is both a good blocker and a good runner - for a backup FB. He's not outstanding, just good. If he was outstanding, he'd be starting. But like I said before, I can't imagine anyone in the league better to learn from than Sellers, and I hope #45 can help him elevate his play.

3. I don't know why you think the probability is so high that we draft a late-round FB. It's always a possibility, because in the late rounds you draft based on BPA, but I don't think FB is exactly a concern for this team. Sellers is a beast, and everything I've seen or read indicates to me that the coaches think Nemo will be a solid backup.

[bulldog]

let's be honest. Manuel White was never a sure-fire NFL talent at tailback. He didn't block well enough to be a regular fullback. He lasted that first season because he was hurt and placed on IR early on.

So, folks have it backwards here. It isnt' the injuries that cost White his career, but rather the injuries and time on IR that allowed White to draw a paycheck for 2 years when he very well might have been given his release prior to the 2005 opener.

[flexxskins]

let's be honest. Manuel White was never a sure-fire NFL talent at tailback. He didn't block well enough to be a regular fullback. He lasted that first season because he was hurt and placed on IR early on.

So, folks have it backwards here. It isnt' the injuries that cost White his career, but rather the injuries and time on IR that allowed White to draw a paycheck for 2 years when he very well might have been given his release prior to the 2005 opener.Well sheesh...when you put it like that...

[TheLongshot]

So, folks have it backwards here. It isnt' the injuries that cost White his career, but rather the injuries and time on IR that allowed White to draw a paycheck for 2 years when he very well might have been given his release prior to the 2005 opener.

Sorry, but he would have been on the practice squad, like he was in his second year before he got hurt.

Who knows. If he'd stayed healthy, he could have been called up in either year.

Jason

[SkinsFTW]

Yeah, I was wondering WTF? We already had Portis, Betts, Rock. Cooley and Sellers too if either of them would have been converted.

Didn't make sense then, and still doesn't now.

I'm sure that most of us will be scratching our heads in about a month because of some 2007 draft picks as well.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

1. Correct. He is currently the #2 fullback on the roster, and I've seen no indication that the coaches plan on changing that. If you have, let me know.

2. He is both a good blocker and a good runner - for a backup FB. He's not outstanding, just good. If he was outstanding, he'd be starting. But like I said before, I can't imagine anyone in the league better to learn from than Sellers, and I hope #45 can help him elevate his play.

3. I don't know why you think the probability is so high that we draft a late-round FB. It's always a possibility, because in the late rounds you draft based on BPA, but I don't think FB is exactly a concern for this team. Sellers is a beast, and everything I've seen or read indicates to me that the coaches think Nemo will be a solid backup.1. I know, it worries me.

2. Nemo's was a decent runner when the #3 D's were on the field in preseason. When it's time for the real deal, it's liability city. He's slow, doesn't have quick feet, and DOES NOT run like a man with his weight.

I love Mike Sellers, LOVE HIM. He's perhaps the most underrated player on the team, but there is no way you can call the best person in the league to learn from. I'd start with Neal.

3. I said the probability is high that we draft OR bring in well-scout UDFA's. There will be competition and Broughton WILL lose.

I don't know why you have such a mancrush on Broughton but he will NEVER be a starting caliber FB. Also, what is it that you have seen and read that leads you to these conclusions? You have provided no links or substantial evidence. As well, if you do find quotes from JUST the coaches, please remember they spin EVERYTHING.

[fpickering]

It is easy to make great picks in hindsight.

As for McCune, I think he was a good value pick in the 5th round. Certainly, his talent was worth taking a risk on him. Unfortunately, he never quite developed into that player we wanted, at least in his first two years. (Who knows how he will do in Miami.) Such is the way of the draft. You don't hit on everyone.

Jason

There were several people following the draft live who posted that we should draft Canty so it was not hindsight in this case.

[TheLongshot]

There were several people following the draft live who posted that we should draft Canty so it was not hindsight in this case.

And has Canty shown that he's that good that we should be crying over the fact that we didn't draft him? I don't think so.

I agree with Mookie. We took a risk on a player which the FO thought had a great upside, and ended up getting hurt two years in a row. That happens in the draft.

Jason

[IronMike]

Many of us criticized these choices AT THE TIME THEY WERE MADE! They were wasted picks then, even more so now. We had glaring needs across the board, paticularly at DL and OL, but we drafted Nemo and White? Again, it shows how feeble we are at drafting.

:(

[fpickering]

And has Canty shown that he's that good that we should be crying over the fact that we didn't draft him? I don't think so.

I agree with Mookie. We took a risk on a player which the FO thought had a great upside, and ended up getting hurt two years in a row. That happens in the draft.

Jason


Yes, we as fans have every right to "cry" over the fact that we did not draft him especially considering that many of us were the ones who questioned passing him up on draft day.

Although he has not blown up, Canty is a young, affordable and serviceable DE who is listed as a starter on the depth chart. He has played in all 16 games in both his rookie and 2nd season. Who knows how productive he might be in years to come.

Manuel White on the other hand appeared in 0 games and appears no where on our depth chart since he is not on our team anymore.

Add to this the fact that DE was a position in which we were very, very thin and it is an inexcusable failure not to draft him.