Another Two Iranian Military Commanders Missing; Fingers Pointing at U.S., Israel

[Sarge]

Excellent :D

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/08.jpg


http://www.thememriblog.org/blog_personal/en/979.htm


Ibrahim Karagul, a columnist with strong anti-U.S. views who writes for the Islamic Turkish daily Yeni Safak, which is the unofficial mouthpiece of Turkey's AKP government, has stated that since the disappearance of former Iranian deputy defense minister Ali Reza Asghari, two more Iranian commanders have been "kidnapped." He added that the espionage games being played by the U.S. and Israel, with Istanbul as their playground, are making Turkey look suspicious.

In his column, Karagul wrote that while the mystery of Asghari's disappearance is still unsolved, Iranian Col. Amir Muhammad Shirazi and Gen. Muhammad Sultani are missing.

He added that fingers in Iran are pointing at U.S. and Israeli intelligence services, and wrote, "It is said that five Iranians left Iran on Friday, March 16, and entered Turkey at midnight on March 17, and that they were handed over to CIA and Mossad agents on March 18. Whether Col. Shirazi and Gen. Sultani were among these five is not clear."

He warned, "If the U.S. keeps kidnapping Iranian officials, a big storm will erupt, because Iranian circles are warning that they have the capability and manpower to kidnap or strike at any U.S. or Israeli target, any time and anywhere in the world."

[mboyd784]

Christianity and Judaism - Religions of Peace.

[Zen-like Todd]

Christianity and Judaism - Religions of Peace.

As opposed to a religion of trolls?

[mboyd784]

As opposed to a religion of trolls?

Join the flock, brother.

[boofMcboof]

Don't the Iranians have bigger fish to fry? Like whining about Hollywood movies.

[Sarge]

Christianity and Judaism - Religions of Peace.

I'm pretty sure both of these guys still have their heads. In fact, when the last guy disappeared, those evil Christians and Jews even brought the guys family

[PleaseBlitz]

Excellent :D

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/08.jpg




:rotflmao:


Oh crap, Sarge made me laugh. :paranoid:

[JMS]

I was going to post this for you Sarge. When last we talked you suggested that this was our handy work. I disagreed with you and suggested that it was Israel because the first guy taken was a Hezbollah expert/ go between.


Well now that two more have disappeared I'm starting to agree with you. This might be us... God help us George Bush is a morron.... This is an act of war. I wonder how George and The US voters will feel when Iran starts to kidnap Americans in retaliation? Clearly if this is us, we are acting like we're already at war with Iran. If it's Israel, it's nothing special; Israel does this stuff all the time..




The Sunday Times
March 18, 2007


Iran to hit back at US ‘kidnaps’



Uzi Mahnaimi, Tel Aviv


IRAN is threatening to retaliate in Europe for what it claims is a daring undercover operation by western intelligence services to kidnap senior officers in its Revolutionary Guard.

According to Iranian sources, several officers have been abducted in the past three months and the United States has drawn up a list of other targets to be seized with the aim of destabilising Tehran’s military command.

In an article in Subhi Sadek, the Revolutionary Guard’s weekly paper, Reza Faker, a writer believed to have close links to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, warned that Iran would strike back.

“We’ve got the ability to capture a nice bunch of blue-eyed blond-haired officers and feed them to our fighting cocks,” he said. “Iran has enough people who can reach the heart of Europe and kidnap Americans and Israelis.”

The first sign of a possible campaign against high-ranking Iranian officers emerged earlier this month with the discovery that Ali Reza Asgari, former commander of the Revolutionary Guard’s elite Quds Force in Lebanon and deputy defence minister, had vanished, apparently during a trip to Istanbul.

Asgari’s disappearance shocked the Iranian regime as he is believed to possess some of its most closely guarded secrets. The Quds Force is responsible for operations outside Iran.

Last week it was revealed that Colonel Amir Muhammed Shirazi, another high-ranking Revolutionary Guard officer, had disappeared, probably in Iraq.

A third Iranian general is also understood to be missing — the head of the Revolutionary Guard in the Persian Gulf. Sources named him as Brigadier General Muhammed Soltani, but his identity could not be confirmed.

“This is no longer a coincidence, but rather an orchestrated operation to shake the higher echelons of the Revolutionary Guard,” said an Israeli source.

Other members of the Quds Force are said to have been seized in Irbil, in the Kurdish area of northern Iraq, by US special forces.

“The capture of Quds members in Irbil was essential for our understanding of Iranian activity in Iraq,” said an American official with knowledge of the operation.

One theory circulating in Israel is that a US taskforce known as the Iran Syria Policy and Operations Group (ISOG) is coordinating the campaign to take Revolutionary Guard commanders.

The Iranians have also accused the United States of being behind an attack on Revolutionary Guards in Iran last month in which at least 17 were killed.

Military analysts believe that Iranian threats of retaliation are credible. Tehran is notorious for settling scores. When the Israelis killed Abbas Mussawi, Hezbollah’s general secretary, in 1992 the Quds Force blew up the Israeli embassy in Argentina in revenge.

Despite the Iranian threat to retaliate in Europe, Iraq is seen by some analysts as a more likely place in which to attempt abductions.

“In Iraq, the Quds Force can easily get hold of American — and British — officers,” said a Jordanian intelligence source.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article1530527.ece

[Larry]

1) He's claiming that we have the ability (and the will) to kidnap Iranian military officials from Iran?

(Don't know if I'd approve of us doing it, (depends on how much evidence we've got of them being involved in a war against the US), but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we have the ability.)

2) Wondering why, if this were true, that they'd admit it. I'd be ashamed.

3) Once again admiring the Iranian ability to claim that the WTC is a legitimate military target, but that Generals aren't.

[JMS]

I'm pretty sure both of these guys still have their heads. In fact, when the last guy disappeared, those evil Christians and Jews even brought the guys family


Post a link. I didn't hear that. We and the Israeli's said he defected. But there was no press conferense and he didn't make a statement. Then two more disappeared and now we aren't even claiming they defected.

What else have you heard?

[Larry]

“We’ve got the ability to capture a nice bunch of blue-eyed blond-haired officers and feed them to our fighting cocks,” he said.

Has the Iranian Army gone "don't ask, don't tell"?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[Sarge]

Well now that two more have disappeared I'm starting to agree with you. This might be us... God help us George Bush is a morron.... This is an act of war. I wonder how George and The US voters will feel when Iran starts to kidnap Americans in retaliation? Clearly if this is us, we are acting like we're already at war with Iran. If it's Israel, it's nothing special; Israel does this stuff all the time..


This is brilliant! We get fresh intel right from the source, hence we can take the lib arguement of "We can't bomb Irans nukes, we don't have any intel" away.

I rather suspect that these guys have been developed by their CIA handlers for awhile now, and have come to our side for a good bit of cash, a new identity and a big house somewhere

[Sarge]

:rotflmao:


Oh crap, Sarge made me laugh. :paranoid:

I thought someone would get a snort out of that :laugh:

[JMS]

1) He's claiming that we have the ability (and the will) to kidnap Iranian military officials from Iran?

(Don't know if I'd approve of us doing it, (depends on how much evidence we've got of them being involved in a war against the US), but I'd be pleasantly surprised if we have the ability.)


One was grabbed in Turkey. Another one was grabbed off the streets of Iraq. We don't know where the third was taken from.



2) Wondering why, if this were true, that they'd admit it. I'd be ashamed.


Because it paints whoever did this as a criminal regeme. It's a PR move.
Attempt to capture world sympathy. An effective attempt too if we did this.



3) Once again admiring the Iranian ability to claim that the WTC is a legitimate military target, but that Generals aren't.

Iran had no involvement in WTC. And Generals aren't military targets if there isn't a war. Kidnapping folks off the street as we're doing around the world is a crime. Doing it to high ranking foreign officials is the hight of stupidity. It's an attempt to provoke a war!...

If/when Iran kidnapped our embassy folks many her including me were calling for war. If Iran didn't share a boarder with the Soviet uniion at the time we likely would have responded militarily.

This is not a good thing..

[Sarge]

Has the Iranian Army gone "don't ask, don't tell"?

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Didn't you see "300"? They're all homos :D

[PleaseBlitz]

I thought someone would get a snort out of that :laugh:

Check out the "thats not what i said" thread for more fun. :evil:

[Sarge]

Post a link. I didn't hear that. We and the Israeli's said he defected. But there was no press conferense and he didn't make a statement. Then two more disappeared and now we aren't even claiming they defected.

What else have you heard?

There has only been two total who have defected. The first guy brought his family with him. He's probably about 20 stories underground in Maryland right now, pointing out things on maps and giving us GPS coordinates :D

[Blighty Skins]

Iran are forgetting CIA and MI6 have played these intelligence games with much more dangerous opponents (KGB) for over 50 years. And won. They'd better watch out if they know what's good for them.

I love it when the West plays dirty. :laugh:

[Larry]

He's probably about 20 stories underground in Maryland right now, pointing out things on maps and giving us GPS coordinates :D

Or looking at books of mug shots. Maybe coughing up code names to go with them.

[Sarge]

Or looking at books of mug shots. Maybe coughing up code names to go with them.


Could be. When we get done with him, we can send him on to Gitmo

[JMS]

This is brilliant! We get fresh intel right from the source, hence we can take the lib arguement of "We can't bomb Irans nukes, we don't have any intel" away.


The reason we can't bomb Iran's nuclear facilities isn't because we dont' know where they are. Iran has learned from Saddam's mistake of the early 1980's. They've distributed their program around the country, and bunkered much of it in underground bomb proof shelters.

That's one reason why George Bush called for a new style nuclear bomb. First new nuclear bomb class in two decades. It's a bunker buster designed to take out fortified Iranian bunkers. We thought we could take them with conventional weapons. But when Israel went into southern Lebonon they tried our best conventional weapons on similar Iranian built bunkers where Hezbollah was hiding. No dice.

Anyway, Location isn't the problem.



I rather suspect that these guys have been developed by their CIA handlers for awhile now, and have come to our side for a good bit of cash, a new identity and a big house somewhere


If they were CIA spys don't you think we would have stated as much? I don't know; you might be right. If their inteligence value would be negitively impacted by declairing them we would keep their defection secret. But we're not even claiming two of them are defectors. Only the one; and we claimed Israel had him; Only after Israel claimed we took him....


I think these guys are getting their toenails pulled off at one of our many detention centers which have hosted more than 70,000 people over the last 4 years. This is not good.

If this was us. We could be at war in weeks; and they'd be justified in doing it.

[JMS]

There has only been two total who have defected. The first guy brought his family with him. He's probably about 20 stories underground in Maryland right now, pointing out things on maps and giving us GPS coordinates :D


The first guy was grabbed out of a hotel room in Turkey. I didn't read that his family was taken too. Post a link. I've seen no one claiming they knew these guys defected.

The Israeli source said the US had the guy and he was cooperating with us. Our guy after being told that said he heard the Israeli's had this guy. I haven't read anywhere that the second two guys are claimed to have defected not by us, Israel or Iran.

[JMS]

Iran are forgetting CIA and MI6 have played these intelligence games with much more dangerous opponents (KGB) for over 50 years. And won. They'd better watch out if they know what's good for them.

I love it when the West plays dirty. :laugh:


You're crazy. Remember when we accidentally blew up the Iranian passenger jet when on a scheduled civilian flight it strayed too close to one of our warships in the gulf? Remember how Iran reacted? They blew up one of our civilian airlines, killing a like number of civilians.

Iran is famous for getting even. And it doesn't seem like we're doing all that professional a job at this if it was us. Claiming one of our closest Ally did it seems pretty juvenile. Them likewise claiming we did it is equally amateurish.

This isn't going to end well.

[Sarge]

The reason we can't bomb Iran's nuclear facilities isn't because we dont' know where they are. Iran has learned from Saddam's mistake of the early 1980's. They've distributed their program around the country, and bunkered much of it in underground bomb proof shelters.

That's one reason why George Bush called for a new style nuclear bomb. First new nuclear bomb class in two decades. It's a bunker buster designed to take out fortified Iranian bunkers. We thought we could take them with conventional weapons. But when Israel went into southern Lebonon they tried our best conventional weapons on similar Iranian built bunkers where Hezbollah was hiding. No dice.

Well, good thing we're smart enough to develope something thta can defeat their bunkers, huh?



If they were CIA spys don't you think we would have stated as much? I don't know; you might be right. If their inteligence value would be negitively impacted by declairing them we would keep their defection secret. But we're not even claiming two of them are defectors. Only the one; and we claimed Israel had him; Only after Israel claimed we took him....

Why would we do that? It would endanger the rest of the dis-satisfied generals we're trying to bring to our side. Now as it is the iranians are probably ****ting themselves, wondering how many of their own we've corrupted. Way to go CIA! This is what they meant to do. Squirm iranian bastages!

I think these guys are getting their toenails pulled off at one of our many detention centers which have hosted more than 70,000 people over the last 4 years. This is not good.

Haven't you heard? Torture isn't effective. A big bank account and twinkies for everyone goes a lot further


If this was us. We could be at war in weeks; and they'd be justified in doing it.


Good thing we have two carrier groups near the Gulf that just so happen to be in range of Iran then, eh?

[Sarge]

Iran are forgetting CIA and MI6 have played these intelligence games with much more dangerous opponents (KGB) for over 50 years. And won. They'd better watch out if they know what's good for them.

I love it when the West plays dirty. :laugh:

Every once in awhile we find our balls. :laugh:

[JMS]

Well, good thing we're smart enough to develope something thta can defeat their bunkers, huh?


Sarge you want to be the first one to use nuclear weapons in a conflict with another nuclear power? You want to do it unprovoked as a response to Iran's development of nukes?





Why would we do that? It would endanger the rest of the dis-satisfied generals we're trying to bring to our side. Now as it is the iranians are probably ****ting themselves, wondering how many of their own we've corrupted. Way to go CIA! This is what they meant to do. Squirm iranian bastages!


That doesn't seem logical to me. If we have them and they defected we would want to state as much. It does put more pressure on Iran and doesn't allow Iran to paint us as a bunch of moronic cowboys snatching folks of the street. Rather we get to portray ourselves as liberators.

If we grabbed the guy off the streets that would also restrict Iranian officials from traveling abroad.

There President is coming over here to talk at the UN this or next week is he not? :doh:



Haven't you heard? Torture isn't effective. A big bank account and twinkies for everyone goes a lot further


I have heard that. I've even written that. It's Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney who haven't heard that. Water boarding, kidnapings, isolation, injections and the entire gambit. We're doing it all. Remember Torture boy Gonzollas whos job it is to uphold the law calling the Geneva convention "quaint"?



Good thing we have two carrier groups near the Gulf that just so happen to be in range of Iran then, eh?


When we went into Iraq we had five over there. We also have a bunch of land based Turkish Iraqi and Bahrain. Figure none of those guys will allow us to use our bases if we're the ones provoking the fight. Maybe Bahrain will...

[jpillian]

JMS -- I honestly haven't been keeping up on this so maybe something new has surfaced -- but isn't Iran widely thought to be involved in southern Iraq in supporting, equipping insurgents, as well as in taking part in some hostilities (i.e., the infamous raid in Karbala in January).

Sounds like we're already well engaged in a low intensity conflict with Iran already.

[Sarge]

Sarge you want to be the first one to use nuclear weapons in a conflict with another nuclear power? You want to do it unprovoked as a response to Iran's development of nukes


If that's what it takes to destroy their nuke program. The good thing about is, they're not a nuclear power...............yet, and I for one would prefer they not get that way. Good thing we have a president that thinks ahead and anticipates situations, eh?

Sucks to be Iranian nowadays, eh?

Of course, they could always let the UN inspectors back in :rolleyes:



That doesn't seem logical to me. If we have them and they defected we would want to state as much. It does put more pressure on Iran and doesn't allow Iran to paint us as a bunch of moronic cowboys snatching folks of the street.

No, we wouldn't, because it will endanger the other generals who possibly want to defect. It would also endanger the defectee. Don't think that iranian agents aren't already looking for them, both here and in Israel.

BTW, the pressure is already on in iran. Can you imagine the high command structure, looking suspiciously at one another all the time? This is a good thing. As it is, I suspect you'll soon read about a purge of generals in iran. Actually, you probably won't read about it, the generals and their families will just disappear, whether they did anything or not, because that's how REAL bad guys do things.

I know it's hard for you libs to understand, squealing about Bush and all.


There President is coming over here to talk at the UN this or next week is he not

This is called an "opportunity" If I were in charge, there'd be no way in God's gren Earth I would have EVER granted him a visa to come here. But since he's coming, it'd be a shame if something started up while he was here, wouldn't it?

I guess then he'd be an enemy combatant on foreign soil:evil:


I have heard that. I've even written that. It's Bush, Rumsfeld and Cheney who haven't heard that. Water boarding, kidnapings, isolation, injections and the entire gambit. We're doing it all

I seriously doubt this is the case here. IF we did snatch him, he's being de-briefed in a secure safe house somewhere while smoking Cuban cigars. IF we did snatch him, we've been working this for awhile now. He was identified and targeted for his knowledge, and a big wad of money will get him to talk sooner than waterboarding. This was no dirty raghead snatched off the battlefield. It was all pre-arrainged. This much money for this much information, or all information. This is where we will get you and your family and this is how we will protect you and your family.



When we went into Iraq we had five over there. We also have a bunch of land based Turkish Iraqi and Bahrain. Figure none of those guys will allow us to use our bases if we're the ones provoking the fight. Maybe Bahrain will...

We invaded Iraq. We won't do that with Iran.

And maybe you should check on who in the area has given their quiet go ahead to take care of this problem

[Teller]

After Iran's criticism of Israel's response to having two of its soldiers abducted, at least we know Iran won't respond militarily. I mean, that would be hypocritical, right? :rolleyes:

[Sarge]

JMS -- I honestly haven't been keeping up on this so maybe something new has surfaced -- but isn't Iran widely thought to be involved in southern Iraq in supporting, equipping insurgents, as well as in taking part in some hostilities (i.e., the infamous raid in Karbala in January).

Sounds like we're already well engaged in a low intensity conflict with Iran already.

Yeah, but see, ignoring that doesn't give someone the chance to call Bush evil and Hitler and so on

[Blighty Skins]

You're crazy. Remember when we accidentally blew up the Iranian passenger jet when on a scheduled civilian flight it strayed too close to one of our warships in the gulf? Remember how Iran reacted? They blew up one of our civilian airlines, killing a like number of civilians.

Iran is famous for getting even. And it doesn't seem like we're doing all that professional a job at this if it was us. Claiming one of our closest Ally did it seems pretty juvenile. Them likewise claiming we did it is equally amateurish.

This isn't going to end well.

So tell me the connection between blowing up a civilian jet with a warship and intelligence operations? So because it's "not going to end well" we should cower and bend over to them? How about we kick their arses? Remember we have nukes, they are trying to get them. When all is said and done, they get to live in a 2,000 degree nuclear hell hole. :applause:

[JMS]

JMS -- I honestly haven't been keeping up on this so maybe something new has surfaced -- but isn't Iran widely thought to be involved in southern Iraq in supporting, equipping insurgents, as well as in taking part in some hostilities (i.e., the infamous raid in Karbala in January).

Sounds like we're already well engaged in a low intensity conflict with Iran already.

Difference between we are claiming something and proving it. Especially for this administration who has a proven track record of twisting the truth.
Iran's position is why would they oppose our efferts in IRaq? We are actively involved in installing a pro Iranian Shia government in Iraq. Iran's position from the very beginning has been to sit back and hope we accomplish our goal. Iraq is a 70% Shia country; why would Iran object to us placing a Democracy there? They wouldn't, and for the most part haven't.

The vast majority of the IED's and bombings have come from Saddams backers the Sunni. They are being backed by our allies in the region, at least tacidely now but at times actively. We've sent Condoliza and Dick over a couple of times to read the riot act to our allies for supporting Iraqi Sunnis...

[JMS]

So tell me the connection between blowing up a civilian jet with a warship and intelligence operations? So because it's "not going to end well" we should cower and bend over to them? How about we kick their arses? Remember we have nukes, they are trying to get them. When all is said and done, they get to live in a 2,000 degree nuclear hell hole. :applause:


First the connection between our accidentally blowing up one of their passenger jets and them purposely blowing up one of ours was a direct quid pro quoe. They blew up our passenger jet in retaliation for downing theirs.

Just like they will retaliate for these kidnappings; As any country would.

Lastly are you advocating a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran? Brilliant...
That would really start the world to developing nukes. The only way to protect yourself against America's agression is to arm yourselves...

[Blighty Skins]

Difference between we are claiming something and proving it. Especially for this administration who has a proven track record of twisting the truth.
Iran's position is why would they oppose our efferts in IRaq? We are actively involved in installing a pro Iranian Shia government in Iraq. Iran's position from the very beginning has been to sit back and hope we accomplish our goal. Iraq is a 70% Shia country; why would Iran object to us placing a Democracy there? They wouldn't, and for the most part haven't.

The vast majority of the IED's and bombings have come from Saddams backers the Sunni. They are being backed by our allies in the region, at least tacidely now but at times actively. We've sent Condoliza and Dick over a couple of times to read the riot act to our allies for supporting Iraqi Sunnis...

Why would Iran oppose America in Iraq? Well, I don't know...maybe they were hoping of a reaction, pretty much like what is happening, from the American people asking to pull out the troops? How about that?

So tell me why the Sunnis are attacking Americans considering they are the minority and once Americans leave, the Sunnis will pretty much be up to their ears in kaka.

You're not really making sense.

[Blighty Skins]

First the connection between our accidentally blowing up one of their passenger jets and them purposely blowing up one of ours was a direct quid pro quoe. They blew up our passenger jet in retaliation for downing theirs.

Just like they will retaliate for these kidnappings; As any country would.

Lastly are you advocating a preemptive nuclear strike on Iran? Brilliant...
That would really start the world to developing nukes. The only way to protect yourself against America's agression is to arm yourselves...

I'm not advocating using nuclear weapons. I'm just saying that tit-for-tat Iran loses. Iran can only go so far...if they start using WMDs which they have bar the big daddy nuke, then they will lose because of said nuke. No more Iran. :cheers:

[JMS]

Why would Iran oppose America in Iraq? Well, I don't know...maybe they were hoping of a reaction, pretty much like what is happening, from the American people asking to pull out the troops? How about that?


Irain doesn't want us to leave yet. We are literally doing their work for them. We are installing a pro-Iranian Shia majority in power. Iran is all for that. Iran is loving us. They spent 10 years at war with Iraq and never had it so good since our invasion and "democracy" movement.



So tell me why the Sunnis are attacking Americans considering they are the minority and once Americans leave, the Sunnis will pretty much be up to their ears in kaka.


Because we are actively installing their enemies into power. Because the Sunni's have ruled Iraq forever and the Shia haven't. Because after we are gone, our allies the Saudi's, Egyptions, Jordainians and likely the Israeli's will be supporting the Sunni's over the Pro Iranian Shia majority.

The vast majority of the IED's are sunni. The Shia's largest militia leaders are all part of the government... Sadder runs the ministry of the interior and was instrimental in putting the current IRaqi PM in power.

[JMS]

I'm not advocating using nuclear weapons. I'm just saying that tit-for-tat Iran loses. Iran can only go so far...if they start using WMDs which they have bar the big daddy nuke, then they will lose because of said nuke. No more Iran. :cheers:

We have what 20 -30,000 nukes, and it's America's stated policy to respond to any WMD with a nuclear response. Iran isn't going to nuke us even if they had the ability to get a nuke over to US soil. Not first anyway.

[dreamingwolf]

looks like someone got the Al-Q memo on posting in forums

[Blighty Skins]

We have what 20 -30,000 nukes, and it's America's stated policy to respond to any WMD with a nuclear response. Iran isn't going to nuke us even if they had the ability to get a nuke over to US soil. Not first anyway.

You do know chemical and biological weapons count as WMDs?

[Ken]

So tell me the connection between blowing up a civilian jet with a warship and intelligence operations? So because it's "not going to end well" we should cower and bend over to them? How about we kick their arses? Remember we have nukes, they are trying to get them. When all is said and done, they get to live in a 2,000 degree nuclear hell hole. :applause:
You are so brave from your trusty keyboard.

I admire your courage to incinerate innocent people and ruin the climate the world over.

:notworthy


WOW the ignorance on this board...

[Ken]

You do know chemical and biological weapons count as WMDs?
You know so does Depleted Uranium?

[Zen-like Todd]

Not to get in the way of a typical tailgate flamewar, but this week old article has a decent rundown of events as reported by various outlets.

http://reason.com/news/show/119138.html

[Larry]

You know so does Depleted Uranium?

Um, no, it doesn't.

[Air Force Cane]

If you follow things closely, we are on the offensive all over the Middle East and South Asia.

As it should be. We are winning, but only as long as the liberals don't pull defeat from our grasp with their defense spending and appropriation bills.

[jpillian]

You know so does Depleted Uranium?


Ken -- I believe that is a bit of an overstatement (that DU is a WMD). No one outside of the fringe and tinfoil hat-types are currently classifying DU as a WMD.

That is not to say that I'd want to sprinkle it on my Cheerios; it's certainly not good for you. There is certainly a debate as to it's levels of toxicity and its effects on the long term health effects on inhabitants near where DU weapons have been used.

I just don't see it's radiological or chemical toxicity being enough to lump it in with the likes of Mustard Gas .. VX, Anthrax, or Nukes.

[Zen-like Todd]

Ken -- I believe that is a bit of an overstatement (that DU is a WMD). No one outside of the fringe and tinfoil hat-types are currently classifying DU as a WMD.

That is not to say that I'd want to sprinkle it on my Cheerios; it's certainly not good for you. There is certainly a debate as to it's levels of toxicity and its effects on the long term health effects on inhabitants near where DU weapons have been used.

I just don't see it's radiological or chemical toxicity being enough to lump it in with the likes of Mustard Gas .. VX, Anthrax, or Nukes.

I don't think I'm going out on a limb here when I gently suggest that Ken is in fact a tinfoil hat wearer. He's all over the conspiracy threads.

[JMS]

looks like someone got the Al-Q memo on posting in forums

what does that mean?

[JMS]

You do know chemical and biological weapons count as WMDs?

Yes I do. And we told Iraq that before we invaded them. You fire off one of those biologicals, ( ie anthrax ) and we would respond to nukes.

It's not in anybodies interest to get into a nuclear fight with the US. Not Russia or China and certainly not Iran who might have a few nukes in a few years against our 20-30,000 warheads..

[909997]

Christianity and Judaism - Religions of Peace.

christians killed more jews then muslims did

[JMS]

You know so does Depleted Uranium?

Depleted Uranium is not a WMD. Our (airforce) A-10 warthog ground support fighter shoots depleted Uranium shells. We do this on test ranges in the US and we did it in Iraqi war I, and II.

The reason we use depleted Uranium is because it's not radio active.. ( mutch?).
The reason we use depleated Uranium is because Uranium is much denser than almost any other metal. Check out a periodic table. This allows the gun on the A-10 to take out tanks from a significantly further distance.

Depleted Uranium is not a WMD.

[JMS]

If you follow things closely, we are on the offensive all over the Middle East and South Asia.

As it should be. We are winning, but only as long as the liberals don't pull defeat from our grasp with their defense spending and appropriation bills.


< spit take >...... jez.. what newspaper are you reading. We have abandoned most of Iraq and have created a concentrated force in Bagdad where we are now seemingly holding our own. The over all casualties and attacks are up over last year, just not in bagdad. That's with now with 170,000 troops in Iraq. Net troops are about the same post surge as pre surge. Because all of our allies including the British are reducing their troops and getting out.

Afghanistan a country with a greater population than Iraq, we have about 16 thousand troops. We don't control anything other than the capital. The taliban is largely back in control of most of the country and Al Quada is making a come back.

We aren't on the offensive everywhere. At least we're on the offensive somewhere though.

[Air Force Cane]

JMS- where have you been for the last 28 years?

Uh, Iran waged war on us starting in 1979 when they stormed our Embassy and held Americans hostage for 444 days.

They then murdered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon in 1982 and 1983. Iranians helped with the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 at Dharan. They are the prime supporters of worldwide terrorism through Hizbullah and Hamas. They have been sending hundreds of EFPs into Iraq to kill our troops. They train hundreds of JAM militia to kill our troops.

Achmedinijad claims that the twelfth Mahdi will come once America and Israel are destroyed. He ignores United Nations Sanctions and Directives to stop his nuclear armaments program. He routinely discusses genocide against the Jews and calls for the victory of Muslims all over the world.

And yet WE are now starting a war with THEM?

If that isn't the typical leftist drivel- We are not starting a war with them, we are simply starting to fight back in the war that was declared against us.

[Zen-like Todd]

< spit take >...... jez.. what newspaper are you reading. We have abandoned most of Iraq and have created a concentrated force in Bagdad where we are now seemingly holding our own. The over all casualties and attacks are up over last year, just not in bagdad. That's with now with 170,000 troops in Iraq. Net troops are about the same post surge as pre surge. Because all of our allies including the British are reducing their troops and getting out.

Afghanistan a country with a greater population than Iraq, we have about 16 thousand troops. We don't control anything other than the capital. The taliban is largely back in control of most of the country and Al Quada is making a come back.

We aren't on the offensive everywhere. At least we're on the offensive somewhere though.


1) I actually think the new strategy will bear fruit

2) Believe it or not, not everyone is pulling out. Georgia is increasing their troop contribution.
http://english.people.com.cn/200703/10/eng20070310_356145.html

[Spaceman Spiff]

JMS- where have you been for the last 28 years?

Uh, Iran waged war on us starting in 1979 when they stormed our Embassy and held Americans hostage for 444 days.

They then murdered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon in 1982 and 1983. Iranians helped with the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 at Dharan. They are the prime supporters of worldwide terrorism through Hizbullah and Hamas. They have been sending hundreds of EFPs into Iraq to kill our troops. They train hundreds of JAM militia to kill our troops.

Achmedinijad claims that the twelfth Mahdi will come once America and Israel are destroyed. He ignores United Nations Sanctions and Directives to stop his nuclear armaments program. He routinely discusses genocide against the Jews and calls for the victory of Muslims all over the world.

And yet WE are now starting a war with THEM?

If that isn't the typical leftist drivel- We are not starting a war with them, we are simply starting to fight back in the war that was declared against us.

Good post. :applause: :cheers:

[Air Force Cane]

Oh no! Us kidnapping three of their senior military leaders is going to lead to an awful war!!

Or maybe this will instead :rolleyes:

http://multimedia.scotsman.com/common/img/ts.gif (http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/) Thu 22 Mar 2007
Iran 'training Shia death squads'

RICHARD PYLE IN NEW YORK
IRAQI insurgents and death squads are being trained in at least six secret camps in Iran, according to the dissident credited with exposing the country's nuclear ambitions.


Alireza Jafarzadeh claimed that Shiite guerrillas are posing as pilgrims or wounded veterans seeking medical treatment to cross the border.
schooled in the camps for up to a month in skills such as sniper techniques, bomb building and firing anti-aircraft missiles before being sent back to Iraq.

Mr Jafarzadeh, a dissident who now heads a Washington-based think-tank called Strategic Policy Consulting, claimed the operations have the blessing of top government officials including Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president. He said: "The Iranian regime is secretly engaged in the organisation and training of large Iraqi terrorist networks in Iran to heighten insecurity and instability and force the coalition forces to leave Iraq. "We are not talking about some ragtag elements and individuals who go out of their way and happen to provide weapons or assistance to a number of Shia militia groups. "We are talking about a systematic, well-organised, high-level training officially provided by the Iranian regime." Mr Jafarzadeh said the Iranians hoped to "pave the way for establishment of an Islamic republic in Iraq". He claimed to have obtained the information from a network of resistance informants inside Iran. Mr Jafarzadeh has been credited with the first revelation, in May 2003, of Iran's efforts to develop a clandestine nuclear weapons programme.
http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=442732007&format=print

[JMS]

JMS- where have you been for the last 28 years?


I've been all over the world in the last 28 years. Europe, the middle east, and Asia.



Uh, Iran waged war on us starting in 1979 when they stormed our Embassy and held Americans hostage for 444 days.


First off, why stop at 1979. Why not go back to the 1950's when the CIA over threw the democratic government of Iran and installed the Shaw into power?

Second off your statement is a leap of logic, isn't it. You want it to be true; so you present it as truth. Facts are that the Iranians returned those hostages seconds before or after Ronnie Reagan took the oath of office. Since then we've pretty much had a stand offish relationship with them. We still hold billions of there assets hostage from that time period.

Any active hostilities between our two countries since Reagan has taken office has been largely conducted by proxies or has been tit for tat. We haven't been in an active war with them ever. I think we both can discern the difference between an active war and a cold relationship.



They then murdered hundreds of Americans in Lebanon in 1982 and 1983.


Reagan ( blessings be upon him ) was an idiot for placing un armed Marines in the middle of the Lebanese civil war. It wasn't his brightest move. It's true that Islamic Jihad ( AKA Hezbollah ) was/is associated with Iran. It's also true that the Battleship New Jersey shelled Lebanese villages before that event with her 16 inch guns. Iran is famous for getting even, like I said before.



Iranians helped with the Khobar Towers bombing in 1996 at Dharan.


That was Al Quada not Iran. My Brother was there at the time. That is what got Bin Laden exiled. Iran was not involved.



They are the prime supporters of worldwide terrorism through Hizbullah and Hamas. They have been sending hundreds of EFPs into Iraq to kill our troops. They train hundreds of JAM militia to kill our troops.


Hamas is not an Iranian client. Hamas is a secular Arab movement and is not supported by Iran like the Shia Hezbollah group. Also the Shia are not responsible for the majority of the attacks in Iraq. The Sunni are. And while Saddr and his militia do receive weapons, money and training from Iran; They are part of the Iraqi government. Saddr runs the ministry of the interior. Saddr is not wanted by US forces for attacks on US forces. ( although he was once ). Saddr as Iran are critical of the US, but support our goals of a democracy run by Iraqi's. This is because Shia are the 70% majority of Iraq and a democracy is to their advantage.



Achmedinijad claims that the twelfth Mahdi will come once America and Israel are destroyed. He ignores United Nations Sanctions and Directives to stop his nuclear armaments program. He routinely discusses genocide against the Jews and calls for the victory of Muslims all over the world.


"Routinely Discusses"? The Shia are not the majority of muslims. They don't even get along with the majority of muslims, especially Iranian Shia. Iran shares not common boarder with Israel and has no ability to project significant force into Israel. Israel has hundreds of nukes and is well able to defend themselves even from a nuclear Iran. If Iran Nuked Israel. Israel could take them out with any one branch of their own mini TRIAD...



And yet WE are now starting a war with THEM?


I knew Iran had supported a group which killed Americans Marines 30 years ago. I thought that was your strongest point. Which wasn't very strong. I mean Ronnie, Bush Sr, Clinton, and Bush Jr. all passed on that provocation to invade Iran. Good on you to bring it up though.

Then you alerted me to Iran's propensity to "Routinely Discuss" the destruction of Israel. This is a new provocation which I will have to weigh on the scales of what will likely be another multi trillion dollar war..... Nope doesn't do it for me.



If that isn't the typical leftist drivel- We are not starting a war with them, we are simply starting to fight back in the war that was declared against us.

Did Iran blown up American Marines thirty years ago?
No. Hezbollah did it a thousand miles removed from Iran. 30 years have passed and you are the first person who I've heard suggesting this is a provocation for invasion. This is after 4 American Presidents encompassing both political parties have passed on this provokation.


Has Iran downed American passenger jets regularly over the last 30 years as a expression of their foreign policy?
No. They did down one passenger jet as a response to our downing one of theirs. That too was what 20 years ago?..

Have they kidnapped Americans off the streets?
No.. Not yet, but look for it in the next few weeks in retaliation to our kidnapping their generals.


Iran does support Hezbollah, but so does Syria, and Hezbollah hasn't targeted America since the Marine bombings in Lebanon which was in response to the Battleship New Jersey shelling Lebanese villages.

To put it simple if your going to attack Iran because it supports terrorism. You could equally use that argument against Syria, and our strong ally Pakistan which both are more directly active in the international terrorism as a matter of their foreign policy than Iran.

The only reason Iran is on our radar is because they are developing nukes. We don't want them to have nukes because they are unpredictable and have a track record of retaliating for offenses which we don't even acknowledge as offenses. That's the only valid reason for hostilities against Iran. Problem is we've used that logic before and we were wrong. Problem is the world doesn't agree with us. Problem is not even our strong allies agree with us. Lastly the problem is Bush has squandered his 1 major war mistake. Presidents with low 30% approval ratings don't get to make two multi trillion dollar military mistakes.

[jpillian]

Then you alerted me to Iran's propensity to "Ruthlessly Discusses" issues.



JMS -- I think you injected ruthlessly for "routinely" in AFC's post.

And Iran's president HAS routinely discussed the elimination of Israel. It's like it's part of some morning checklist of his.

"Uhm kay, brush teeth, work out, shower, breakfast, make outlandish statement about wiping Israel off of the face of the Earth.. and I am ready to start my day!"

[JMS]

JMS -- I think you injected ruthlessly for "routinely" in AFC's post.

And Iran's president HAS routinely discussed the elimination of Israel. It's like it's part of some morning checklist of his.

"Uhm kay, brush teeth, work out, shower, breakfast, make outlandish statement about wiping Israel off of the face of the Earth.. and I am ready to start my day!"

Thanks, my bad....

Routinely discussing the elimination of Israel isn't provocation enough to invade Iran. Nor does it make Iran unique in the middle east. Israel constantly threatens all of her neighbors. Israel has preemptive attacked most of her neighbors and she's bombed Lebanon and Syria in the last two years without any significant provocation. Israel has done this for intimidation factor.

Iran talking smack to Israel isn't provocation for us to invade Iran. Sorry. It's not even provocation for Israel to Invade Iran.

If we aren't behind these Iranian kidnappings and it's Israel trying to make it look like us that will really piss me off. If Israel is behind these kidnappings and we know it; we should state it. Kidnapping Iranian Generals and the resulting Kidnappings of American Generals is a major provocation which is likely to lead to military confrontation. Israel is not above using her close American relationship in order to give her an edge in dealing with her enemies; even if it is to America's disadvantage. Historically Israel trying to get America to attack her enemies is not unprecedented.

[Air Force Cane]

Well whatever we do, let's definitely NOT provoke the Iranians. Because they are so disposed to the US as it is- let's not rock the boat!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601080&sid=aRZge2SaJu6I&refer=asia

Iran May Undertake `Illegal' Atomic Work, Leader Says

By Robin Stringer March 21 (Bloomberg) --
Iran may undertake atomic work outside of international regulations if the United Nations Security Council insists that the Islamic Republic ceases uranium enrichment, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said. `Until today, what we have done has been in accordance with international regulations,'' Khamenei said. ``If they take illegal actions, we too can take illegal actions, and will do so,'' the supreme leader said in a speech at Mashhad, Iran's holiest city, to mark the Iranian new year. Excerpts of today's address were televised on the Qatar- based al-Jazeera television channel, translated from Farsi into Arabic. Khamenei, Iran's highest authority, didn't elaborate on his reference to ``illegal actions.'' The U.S. and some European powers accuse Iran of using a domestic atomic power program as a front for developing nuclear weapons. Iran denies the allegation, and insists that it has a right to pursue its program under the terms of the 1968 Non- Proliferation Treaty. Iran is a signatory to the accord, which stipulates the right to nuclear power for peaceful purposes, and encourages non-proliferation and disarmament. Iranian lawmakers and leaders have repeatedly said they may consider ending participation in the treaty in response to pressure from the United Nations Security Council to suspend the country's enrichment program. President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad instructed officials in January to ``accelerate the country's nuclear activities and revise its cooperation with the International Atomic Energy Agency based on Iran's national interests,'' state-run Fars News reported at the time. The IAEA promotes peaceful nuclear technologies and reports annually to the UN General Assembly. Ahmadinejad's order was followed by Iran's warning that the country had taken precautions against any possible military strike on its nuclear facilities. China and Russia agreed with the U.S. and its European allies on March 15 to pressure Iran to curb its nuclear program by freezing the assets of a state-owned Iranian bank and the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. Both countries have considerable investments in Iran, including construction projects and trade in natural resources. Iran was China's leading supplier of crude oil in January. On the same day, Britain, France and the U.S. gave UN Security Council member governments a draft resolution setting a new 60-day deadline for Iran to halt uranium enrichment activities before further sanctions would be imposed. Enriched uranium can be used to fuel a nuclear power plant or form the core of a bomb, depending on the grade to which it is enriched.

[JMS]

1) I actually think the new strategy will bear fruit

I hope you are right and I am wrong. I think we need several hundred thousand troops in Iraq in order to be successful there. And a like number in Afghanistan which is a larger country than Iraq in land and population.



2) Believe it or not, not everyone is pulling out. Georgia is increasing their troop contribution.
http://english.people.com.cn/200703/10/eng20070310_356145.html

Doubling their troops to 2,000 is a nice bit of support from Georgia. Their President is an American Citizen, who went to university and law school in the US. He ran on a strong pro American platform when he came to power.

I believe Georgia is under pressure currently from Russia, so we really are an important ally for him. Figure we are paying for the 2000 troops and Georgia is likely getting many millions on top of that in further aid too. Still, good on Georgia.

[jpillian]

Thanks, my bad....

Routinely discussing the elimination of Israel isn't provocation enough to invade Iran. Nor does it make Iran unique in the middle east. Israel constantly threatens all of her neighbors. Israel has preemptively attacked most of her neighbors and she's bombed Lebanon and Syria in the last two years without any significant provocation.

Iran talking smack to Israel isn't provocation for us to invade Iran. Sorry. It's not even provocation for Israel to Invade Iran.

If we aren't behind these Iranian kidnappings and it's Israel trying to make it look like us that will really piss me off. If Israel is behind these kidnappings and we know it; we should state it.

I'm certainly not advocating an invasion. However, the low intensity tactics currently being used seem appropriate. Encouraging defections and even engaging in kidnapping of military officials are all a part of that realm. None of this means that a hot war between Iran-US is in the near future. Iran is just making sure this particular issue is getting wider coverage than normal in an attempt to influence our tactics.

Of course, all of this is based on accusations from the Iranians which have just about as much basis as our accusations that they are aiding insurgent groups in Iraq. Who knows what is being leaked to media is true?

Given the ambiguity of the situation, I'll certainly lean towards believing my countrymen that are in harm's way, rather than pro-Iranian sources.

[JMS]

Well whatever we do, let's definitely NOT provoke the Iranians. Because they are so disposed to the US as it is- let's not rock the boat!!


A little consistency would be nice. AFC you do realize that the North Korean bomb program as well as the Libyan and Iranian nuclear programs were all based upon the Pakistani bomb. You do realize that Pakistan assisted with all of these bomb programs and were actively exporting nuclear technology for more than a decade. You also realize that Pakistan is active in international terrorism on a larger scale of lose of life than Iran?

Whatever we do we should be rational. We should not go off irrationally and make up a case for war because it feels good. Why not actually base a war on actual facts this time instead of innuendo and half truths. Also lets look at what we would use to conduct this war with Iran, and how we would conduct the occupation, who we will have to go further in dept too to pay for it. Let's do this before we go to war this time.

I know. Let's make a Democracy out of Iran because then the entire Middle East will be transformed into Democracies.... At least even George Bush has abandoned this line of reasoning. What with the Muslim Brotherhoods strong showing in Egypt, Hamas winning in Palestine, and our current troubles in Iraq with Saddr and his ilk....

Democracies don't attack Democracies... :doh:

[JMS]

I'm certainly not advocating an invasion. However, the low intensity tactics currently being used seem appropriate. Encouraging defections and even engaging in kidnapping of military officials are all a part of that realm. None of this means that a hot war between Iran-US is in the near future. Iran is just making sure this particular issue is getting wider coverage than normal in an attempt to influence our tactics.


For the first kidnapping. American sources are in the paper both stating it was a defection not a kidnapping and that Israel did it not America. The next sentence has Israel saying it was a defection and not a kidnapping and that America did it, not Israel.

I wonder if you will still think that this is low intensity tactics when Iran grabs or kills a three or four star American general with knowledge of classified sensitive American defense information. Iran can do it in Europe, Assia or in the Middle east. You think we will turn the other cheek to that? That will be a major provocation and that is going to happen in the near future.




Given the ambiguity of the situation, I'll certainly lean towards believing my countrymen that are in harm's way, rather than pro-Iranian sources.

Turkey is a NATO country. The first of the three Iranian officials was grabbed after he checked into his hotel room in Turkey. That's a documented event. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that American sources are quite on the other two kidnappings.

It's not like America under George Bush doesn't have a very well documented history of extra judicial kidnappings across Europe, America and the Middle East.

[Ken]

Ken -- I believe that is a bit of an overstatement (that DU is a WMD). No one outside of the fringe and tinfoil hat-types are currently classifying DU as a WMD.

That is not to say that I'd want to sprinkle it on my Cheerios; it's certainly not good for you. There is certainly a debate as to it's levels of toxicity and its effects on the long term health effects on inhabitants near where DU weapons have been used.

I just don't see it's radiological or chemical toxicity being enough to lump it in with the likes of Mustard Gas .. VX, Anthrax, or Nukes.
It has a half life of 4.5 billion years, what would you call it?

We are sprinklling tons of it all over the middle east. Our soldiers are handling the munitions and hanging out in areas where the dust particles are seeping into their skin and lodging in their intestines.

You won't hear about it, and when you do it is Gulf War Syndrome, but it is radiation poisoning.


It IS nuclear waste.

[Blighty Skins]

I've handled DU...nothing wrong with it. Take a geiger counter up to a DU sabot round...hardly registers.

p.s. 4.5 billion year half life is a gross exageration...I saw a programme where it stated a nuclear reactor core in use today, if left alone, would become harmless in 200 million years. Even the frigging sun is going to burn out in 10 billion years.

[Ken]

Um, no, it doesn't.
What is the definition of Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Isn't it something that indiscriminately kills?

Isn't Uranium radioactive? Doesn't depleted mean reduced?

Yeah, it isn't "defined" as a weapon of mass destruction, but it doesn't mean it isn't one.

[jpillian]

It has a half life of 4.5 billion years, what would you call it?

We are sprinklling tons of it all over the middle east. Our soldiers are handling the munitions and hanging out in areas where the dust particles are seeping into their skin and lodging in their intestines.

You won't hear about it, and when you do it is Gulf War Syndrome, but it is radiation poisoning.


It IS nuclear waste.

Ken,

Just because a has toxic properties does not classify it as a WMD.

Like I said before, it no doubt has a high level of toxicity and is probably responsible for a lot of health problems -- perhaps of service members from both Gulf Wars and certainly any locals that were near where these munitions were used.

Regardless, you won't see us rearming ICBMs with DU penetrators or terrorists trying to smuggle into the US DU bombs. It's just not THAT dangerous/toxic of a substance. Which is why I have a problem with you mis-labeling it as a Weapon of Mass Destruction. It's simply not capable of anything close to the criteria of "Mass Destruction".

[Blighty Skins]

Turkey is a NATO country. The first of the three Iranian officials was grabbed after he checked into his hotel room in Turkey. That's a documented event. I don't know if it's a good thing or a bad thing that American sources are quite on the other two kidnappings.

It's not like America under George Bush doesn't have a very well documented history of extra judicial kidnappings across Europe, America and the Middle East.

Turkey is a marginal NATO country, much like France. Remember when they refused American troops stepping foot in their "NATO" country in order to attack Iraq from the North? Also, after Turkey invaded Cyprus illegaly you can bet nobody would really trust them...more an ally of conveniance, much like the Soviet Union in WW2. Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan...all allies*. :)

[Blighty Skins]

What is the definition of Weapon of Mass Destruction?

Isn't it something that indiscriminately kills?

Isn't Uranium radioactive? Doesn't depleted mean reduced?

Yeah, it isn't "defined" as a weapon of mass destruction, but it doesn't mean it isn't one.

Depleted means "finished", not "reduced". :rolleyes:

[Larry]

It has a half life of 4.5 billion years, what would you call it?

(Taking your word on the half-life.)

Carbon-14 has a half-life of about 6 thousand years, which means it decays (and emits radioactivity) about one million times faster than DU.

Guess what? 10% (I'm pulling numbers out of thin air, here) of your entire body is Carbon. And a tiny fraction of that Carbon is radioactive

I guess that means that you are a WMD. (Since apparently, according to you, "radioactive" = "WMD")

The reason DU has a half-life of 4.5 billion years is because, in a typical year, one four billionth of it will decay. That means virtually none of it decays. That means it emits virtually no radioactivity.

(See, "long half-life" = "not very radioactive")

That makes it roughly as radioactive as you. (Or every rock on the planet.)


It IS nuclear waste.

It IS what's left over, after the "nuclear" part has been taken out of it.

[Larry]

What is the definition of Weapon of Mass Destruction?

It's a political term. It means whatever the politician wants it to mean.

In popular usage, it refers to a weapon which is capable of killing large numbers of people (like, thousands) with a single weapon.

(Although, as a practical matter, there seems, to me, to be a self-imposed limitation to restrict it to nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. The US has "conventional" bombs that have a bigger "bang" than the smallest nukes. But we claim that it's not the same thing, because it doesn't have the dreaded word "nuclear" on it.)


Isn't it something that indiscriminately kills?

By that definition, a hand grenade is a WMD. (Unless you're one of those "grenades don't kill people, pins do" types.)


Isn't Uranium radioactive?

Natural Uranium is radioactive. (Let's say "dangerously" radioactive, here. Lots of things are slightly radioactive, including rocks and you.)

However, when we make fuel for reactors, or material for nuclear weapons, we take the radioactive parts out. (The radioactive parts are the parts we want, because that's what the reactor needs.)

Depleted Uranium is the part that's left over.

It's about as radioactive as coal.

[Ken]

I've handled DU...nothing wrong with it. Take a geiger counter up to a DU sabot round...hardly registers.

p.s. 4.5 billion year half life is a gross exageration...I saw a programme where it stated a nuclear reactor core in use today, if left alone, would become harmless in 200 million years. Even the frigging sun is going to burn out in 10 billion years.
Here is a good summary of what is going on.

http://www.sierratimes.com/03/05/02/article_io.htm


You can deny it all you want, but there is data all over the place supporting these claims.

[Ken]

Ken,

Just because a has toxic properties does not classify it as a WMD.

Like I said before, it no doubt has a high level of toxicity and is probably responsible for a lot of health problems -- perhaps of service members from both Gulf Wars and certainly any locals that were near where these munitions were used.

Regardless, you won't see us rearming ICBMs with DU penetrators or terrorists trying to smuggle into the US DU bombs. It's just not THAT dangerous/toxic of a substance. Which is why I have a problem with you mis-labeling it as a Weapon of Mass Destruction. It's simply not capable of anything close to the criteria of "Mass Destruction".

I disagree.

Anything that can contaminate an entire area for centuries after its initial use, is, by definition, a weapon of mass destruction.

Just because its not "officially" labeled as such, doesn't mean it isn't. The US and Isreal are the only reason it isn't classified WMD.

[Ken]

Hey guys...can anyone explain this ARMY training video if DU isn't dangerous?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U93PBZIyqBs

[Ken]

It's a political term. It means whatever the politician wants it to mean.

In popular usage, it refers to a weapon which is capable of killing large numbers of people (like, thousands) with a single weapon.

(Although, as a practical matter, there seems, to me, to be a self-imposed limitation to restrict it to nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons. The US has "conventional" bombs that have a bigger "bang" than the smallest nukes. But we claim that it's not the same thing, because it doesn't have the dreaded word "nuclear" on it.)



By that definition, a hand grenade is a WMD. (Unless you're one of those "grenades don't kill people, pins do" types.)



Natural Uranium is radioactive. (Let's say "dangerously" radioactive, here. Lots of things are slightly radioactive, including rocks and you.)

However, when we make fuel for reactors, or material for nuclear weapons, we take the radioactive parts out. (The radioactive parts are the parts we want, because that's what the reactor needs.)

Depleted Uranium is the part that's left over.

It's about as radioactive as coal.
Larry,
While I am certainly not a nuke expert, I have heard many Nuclear "experts" tell me it is.

Are you a nuclear expert or are you getting your info from the WHO or other sanitizing site?

[Larry]

I disagree.

Anything that can contaminate an entire area for centuries after its initial use, is, by definition, a weapon of mass destruction.

Just because its not "officially" labeled as such, doesn't mean it isn't. The US and Isreal are the only reason it isn't classified WMD.

Yes, DU is slightly radioactive.

There are very few things in nature that aren't.

Yes, DU dust can travel around and be inhaled. So can lead vapor (which is also, I believe, slightly radioactive). I guess bullets are WMDs now.

I don't know if Uranium is toxic. (A lot of metals are.) But if so, that makes it toxic, it doesn't make it nuclear. Lead's toxic, and breathing the vapors of vaporised lead can be very bad for you. But that doesn't make it a poison gas weapon.

I'm not a nuclear scientist. But as near as I can figure, if you've ever had a chest x-ray once in your entire lifetime, then you've been exposed to more radiation than what you'd get if you gathered all of the DU ammunition from the entire world, piled it up in your bedroom, and slept with it.

[Ken]

While most of this is controlled bunk...it does show you how prevalent the issue is around the world.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/in_depth/europe/2001/depleted_uranium/default.stm

Only in America is this not an issue. We are too concerned with Anna Nicole and Britney here to worry about the rest of the poor slobs in the world!

[Ken]

And you (and your tinfoil-hat "sources") full of doo-doo.

Yes, DU is slightly radioactive.

There are very few things in nature that aren't.

Yes, DU dust can travel around and be inhaled. So can lead vapor (which is also, I believe, slightly radioactive). I guess bullets are WMDs now.

I don't know if Uranium is toxic. (A lot of metals are.) But if so, that makes it toxic, it doesn't make it nuclear. Lead's toxic, but that doesn't make it a poison gas weapon.

I'm not a nuclear scientist. But as near as I can figure, if you've ever had a chest x-ray once in your entire lifetime, then you've been exposed to more radiation that what you'd get if you gathered all of the DU ammunition from the entire world, biled it up in your bedroom, and slept with it.

It is amazing to me that you will roll out excuses instead of look into the issue. A simple search will show you that you are completely wrong.

The UN has MANY resolutions that have been shot down. These were made by MANY countries, not Larry.

[Larry]

The UN has MANY resolutions that have been shot down. These were made by MANY countries, not Larry.

The UN is, frankly, the only organization I can think of in the entire world that has less credibility than the US Congress.

The UN has resolutions declaring that it's illegal to shoot somebody with a 50 cal machine gun.

That doesn't make the 50 cal machine gun a nuclear weapon.

(And I apologize for my opening statement. I've removed it, but apparently not fast enough.)

[Ken]

The UN is, frankly, the only organization I can think of in the entire world that has less credibility than the US Congress.

The UN has resolutions declaring that it's illegal to shoot somebody with a 50 cal machine gun.

That doesn't make the 50 cal machine gun a nuclear weapon.

(And I apologize for my opening statement. I've removed it, but apparently not fast enough.)
I appreciate the edit! :)

I also think the UN is the biggest horsecrap organization ever concieved, but you REALLY don't want to know my views on that....

Hey, all I'm saying is that this stuff is extremely toxic. There are literally hundreds of doctors and scientists on record saying it.

Sometimes you have to start listening to people without an agenda when the "officials" tell you otherwise.

[Larry]

Hey, all I'm saying is that this stuff is extremely toxic.

"Toxic" I'll certainly agree is believable. (I've got no idea what the toxicity of Uranium is. I've read that Plutonium is highly toxic, and that it vaporizes slowly on it's own if exposed to air, which means folks who work around it need to wear respirators.)

But

a) Lead is toxic. But people who get shot don't die from lead poisoning. And nobody's claiming that the entire continent of Europe is now permanently contaminated, and uninhabitable, because lead bullets got fired there in WW2.

b) "Toxic" does not = "WMD". (Unless you're claiming that it's toxic enough to have killed thousands of people from a single use.)

[mboyd784]

Depleted Uranium is a kick-ass name for a metal album...or band, even.