Whose in charge???

[bubba9497]

from a Scout.com article on the Bears-Skins maybe trade


Obviously many deals are discussed but fail to come to fruition, and this deal could die as well. Both teams seemed to be on the same page, but Gibbs also needed to sign off before an official offer was made

http://bears.scout.com/2/630199.html?refid=400&CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

Jay Glazer FOX


Snyder and football operations man Vinny Cerato left to find head coach Joe Gibbs regarding the deal.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6613558?print=true

[Cardas]

That last quote sounded like Dan and Vinny were two brothers going to ask Dad if they can borrow the car to go get Aerosmith tickets.

Clearly Joe has the last say. Hopefully, he says the right things.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Errr........shouldn't GW be invlolved in this decision somehow as well?

[ntotoro]

Errr........shouldn't GW be invlolved in this decision somehow as well?

Gibbs says "yea" or "nay."

He's the one to discuss it with Williams, not Snyder and Cerrato.

[DWinzit]

Jerry Jones would have just pulled the trigger and thrown the player at the puppet, errrr.....coach!


Please think DL and say no Joe!

[authentic]

geez man, aren't we set at linebacker? Briggs made it known that he wants to get paid. So why would you offer big money for a position that is currently in tact?

[Burgold]

It's dumb business to trade at highest value for a player that is disgruntled and miserable. That's how the Broncos got a second out of us for the Clinton Portis/Champ Bailey deal. When a player has the team in a barrel and he's sending them down the Falls, that's when you get to make a deal in YOUR favor. Any deal that is remotely fair or in their favor is stupid. They need to get rid of him and we don't really need him.

[MRMADD]

Danny and Vinny met with Rosenhaus. Rosenhaus negotiates a deal with them and they determine what they're willing to give up. They meet with Briggs. Rosenhaus goes to see the Bears and talks over the offer. He comes back and tells Danny and Vinny it's a go -- they just need to call the Bears and formally make the offer. Danny tells the media all about it.

At that point he sends Vinny to find Joe Gibbs and let him know what's happening.

That certainly sounds like the bad old days -- Danny and Vinny playing fantasy football without consulting any real football minds.

[DWinzit]

If you're going to make trade, please throw Vinny in the deal!:toilet:

[kingdaddy]

It's dumb business to trade at highest value for a player that is disgruntled and miserable. That's how the Broncos got a second out of us for the Clinton Portis/Champ Bailey deal. When a player has the team in a barrel and he's sending them down the Falls, that's when you get to make a deal in YOUR favor. Any deal that is remotely fair or in their favor is stupid. They need to get rid of him and we don't really need him.


I agree with this post. Nobody is knocking down the Bears door to get Briggs. If we trade for him, it should be for next years second rounder or maybe next years first at most. Pro Bowl players don't necessarily command 1st round picks in return. No way should we give up the #6 pick in the draft. If we want Briggs, we should not give up equal value. We'd be taking a disgruntled player off their hands and giving them something in return as opposed to them having to release him or watch him sit out. This is another guy who's looking to get paid. We have Rocky who would likely be more hungry and has been in our system for a year. Let him play.

[bubba9497]

Danny and Vinny met with Rosenhaus. Rosenhaus negotiates a deal with them and they determine what they're willing to give up. They meet with Briggs. Rosenhaus goes to see the Bears and talks over the offer. He comes back and tells Danny and Vinny it's a go -- they just need to call the Bears and formally make the offer. Danny tells the media all about it.

At that point he sends Vinny to find Joe Gibbs and let him know what's happening.

That certainly sounds like the bad old days -- Danny and Vinny playing fantasy football without consulting any real football minds.


:rolleyes: yeah, un huh


why would Dan need to "tell" Gibbs before he made the trade, unless to getGibbs okay :whoknows: maybe? you think?

BTW Gibbs met with Briggs as well, reported in the same articles links posted above

[Burgold]

Danny and Vinny met with Rosenhaus. Rosenhaus negotiates a deal with them and they determine what they're willing to give up. They meet with Briggs. Rosenhaus goes to see the Bears and talks over the offer. He comes back and tells Danny and Vinny it's a go -- they just need to call the Bears and formally make the offer. Danny tells the media all about it.

At that point he sends Vinny to find Joe Gibbs and let him know what's happening.

That certainly sounds like the bad old days -- Danny and Vinny playing fantasy football without consulting any real football minds.

or another posibility--

When asked by a reporter about Briggs, Snyder said, "Sure we like 'im. Great player. We'd love to have him." Just being nice, versus, "Eh, what a loser. He's a bum trying to screw over his own team. I wouldn't touch a jerk like that with a ten foot pole."

Saying someone is good and that you would like to have them is different than saying you are actively interest in trying to get them. One is being polite or honest (I'm sure there are 50 players out there that we all would like on our team) The other is a statement of action.

[MRMADD]

:rolleyes: yeah, un huh


why would Dan need to "tell" Gibbs before he made the trade, unless to getGibbs okay :whoknows: maybe? you think?

BTW Gibbs met with Briggs as well, reported in the same articles links posted above

You know, it's interesting that despite Danny's history, you assign him only the loftiest of motives. Could it be that you're just a little defensive here because it's more proof that -- despite your assurances -- Danny is very much involved in making football decisions? Whether this deal goes through or not, it's clear that Danny Snyder is back to playing fantasy football. And playing badly.

[Art]

Obviously, despite years of accumulated, definitive proof that Gibbs is the final decision maker on all things personnel related, most people who've still refused to believe that's the case will ignore this data as well as it, like so much else, entirely invalidates the core views that define every statement they make on this board. They are so twisted in a false view that simply getting them to address reality is hard, as it is here.

Whether a person likes Vinny Cerrato or not, Madd goes so far as to say he and Snyder are acting without consulting any real football minds. Vinny is the leader of the personnel department. For the last several months he, and his staff, and the coaching staff INCLUDING WILLIAMS, have judged and graded every player in the game who is possibly free. Cerrato has watched, literally, 14 hours a day of film. He's coordinated everyone's views, facilitated personnel conversations within the organization, sought input, offered input.

Again, the ignorance that goes on about him is one thing, but to suggest he's not a real football guy within the operation of this organization is a joke. More, Madd and the remainder of you having some sluggishness with all this, no one "met" with Rosenhaus, but, if someone were to meet with him, it would be the people who make the contracts and people who hold the Redskins grade on every player. And they run it up the food chain to the guy who makes the call on such matters in every case.

[SkinsFTW]

After the Arch contract what will they offer Briggs? He's actually been to 2 straight Pro Bowls and expects a fat check.

Something like 6yrs 72M is what the Redskins would voluntarily pay, and he isn't better than guys going for 1/2 that but thats the Redskins. What was Arrington's last contract? This one will be bigger.

[MRMADD]

Obviously, despite years of accumulated, definitive proof that Gibbs is the final decision maker on all things personnel related, most people who've still refused to believe that's the case will ignore this data as well as it, like so much else, entirely invalidates the core views that define every statement they make on this board. They are so twisted in a false view that simply getting them to address reality is hard, as it is here.

Whether a person likes Vinny Cerrato or not, Madd goes so far as to say he and Snyder are acting without consulting any real football minds. Vinny is the leader of the personnel department. For the last several months he, and his staff, and the coaching staff INCLUDING WILLIAMS, have judged and graded every player in the game who is possibly free. Cerrato has watched, literally, 14 hours a day of film. He's coordinated everyone's views, facilitated personnel conversations within the organization, sought input, offered input.

Again, the ignorance that goes on about him is one thing, but to suggest he's not a real football guy within the operation of this organization is a joke. More, Madd and the remainder of you having some sluggishness with all this, no one "met" with Rosenhaus, but, if someone were to meet with him, it would be the people who make the contracts and people who hold the Redskins grade on every player. And they run it up the food chain to the guy who makes the call on such matters in every case.

It's funny how Art and Bubba and the other Snyder-lovers have circled the wagons to defend Snyder on this indefensible deal. You say you have years of "accumulated, definitive proof" that Gibbs is the final decisionmaker, but you can't provide any. In fact, you think this trade offer is more "definitive proof" when it's the opposite. The only so-called proof you have is that Joe Gibbs, a stand-up guy, takes responsibility for every failure.

You've made several errors that I have to correct: it has been reported that Danny and Vinny did meet with Rosenhaus. Secondly, if you think consulting with Vinny Cerrato means that you've gotten the input from a "real football guy", you're really out there in Wonderland now.

Let's just make this clear: do you believe that this offer is coming from Gibbs? If not, then you have your answer about control. If someone other than Gibbs is empowered to negotiate a trade of their extraordinarily valuable asset, then that person has the power, not Gibbs.

All the reporting indicates that Danny and Vinny are off at the owners' meetings playing fantasy football. Nowhere in the reporting does it indicate that Joe Gibbs is leading this. He's just the tail on the dog. Hell, they call him AFTER they call the media. That's just embarrassing.

[Burgold]

It's funny how Art and Bubba and the other Snyder-lovers have circled the wagons to defend Snyder on this indefensible deal.

I think we're defending him on this indefensible deal, because as of right now... there is no deal and there very well may not (I hope) be one the works.

[MRMADD]

I think we're defending him on this indefensible deal, because as of right now... there is no deal and there very well may not (I hope) be one the works.

I hope so too. But these negotiations pull back the curtain and reveal the true working nature of this front office, don't they?

[SkinsFTW]

Vinny is the leader of the personnel department. For the last several months he, and his staff, and the coaching staff INCLUDING WILLIAMS, have judged and graded every player in the game who is possibly free. Cerrato has watched, literally, 14 hours a day of film. He's coordinated everyone's views, facilitated personnel conversations within the organization, sought input, offered input.

Again, the ignorance that goes on about him is one thing, but to suggest he's not a real football guy within the operation of this organization is a joke.

What film did they watch last year before signing Archuleta to a record contract?

I'd trust 1/2 of the posters on this board to write contracts before the Redskins FO after last years debacle. Duckett, yeah we needed him that bad. AA, yeah he's the best SS in the league. Randel El and Lloyd are both top 10 receivers.

We spend the money on the players, have the best coaches in the league supposedly, we go 5-11 then fire the LB coach on the 31st ranked D. We would have been 13-3 if not for that guy.

[Dan T.]

On the face of it, Snyder's the front guy on this supposed deal. Which was supposed to end. He just can't stay in the background. Take a page from JKC - hire the best football minds, then let them do their jobs. Stay the hell out of it. You sign the checks. And book first class accommodations at the Super Bowl.

[chipwhich]

Obviously, despite years of accumulated, definitive proof that Gibbs is the final decision maker on all things personnel related, most people who've still refused to believe that's the case will ignore this data as well as it, like so much else, entirely invalidates the core views that define every statement they make on this board. They are so twisted in a false view that simply getting them to address reality is hard, as it is here.

You lost me at "Obviously".

There is nothing obvious going on at the park....despite years of ???????

[SkinsFTW]

On the face of it, Snyder's the front guy on this supposed deal. Which was supposed to end. He just can't stay in the background.

It's Madden 07 offseason except the numbers in real life don't work like they do in Madden. You don't just plug the 90 Rated safety in the spot where the 83 rated Safety used to be and expect it to be a guaranteed improvement since the 90 guy is really a 65 after switching teams.

Madden needs to work on that part of the game. Make it so trading for a player doesn't mean you get what you expect when your FO as an Intel of 3/100.

[GoSkinsGo]

On the face of it, Snyder's the front guy on this supposed deal. Which was supposed to end. He just can't stay in the background. Take a page from JKC - hire the best football minds, then let them do their jobs. Stay the hell out of it. You sign the checks. And book first class accommodations at the Super Bowl.
I was under the impression that the President of Football Operations would be the one to handle a phone call such as this? I mean I would expect an agent to contact Jerry Jones because he is the teams defacto GM, but I was under the impression that Dan the Man had stepped back from this stuff.

Right?

I mean besides being HC isn't Gibbs also supposed to be the guy to spearhead this kind of stuff?

[Raub]

"Who's in charge?"

[Fred Jones]

Trying to be objective on the subject matter concerning the owner and his lackey. And yes, I am not a Vinny supporter. They simply talked numbers with the agent of Briggs. Swapping first round draft choices was probably already discussed and was simply agreed upon by the owner. However, I am sure that the owner told the agent that Gibbs is the final say. The writer just didn’t present it that way. The owner handles the contract side of the house, but personnel moves are clearly the coaching staff with Gibbs at the top. The Duckett deal last year stunk of a coach trying to fill an immediate need and not looking at the big picture. AA was simply a mistake by the coaching staff. As either Art or OM said in another thread, I would love to see who graded AA high on their evaluation list. Also, Gibbs is probably the final say on draft choices. Gibbs is obviously going to talk to GW and probably some other defensive coaches and get their opinion. I guarantee you Gibbs learned from his mistakes in the Duckett, AA and Champ trades. Absolutely no reason to not wait on this trade. Go home and think about it.

Personally, I don’t like the deal. If we do the trade at all we should steal him from the Bears. Second, I agree with you guys that LB is not a need this year. Bringing in Briggs tells me that they don’t like Rocky. What a waste of a pick that would be. Lastly, let’s spend the money elsewhere like extending Cooley or simply saving it for next year. A novel idea at Redskins park under this owner.

[BillyKilmer]

Are there any mod's that dont chap lips when talking Snyder?

[Art]

At this point, I'm growing somewhat tired of people being idiots. Every report in this developing story states the same thing. Joe Gibbs has to decide what the team will do and when he does, should it be something the team wishes to do, an official call will be made to begin official negotiations. The fact that this is the case is not defending Snyder. It's not kissing up to anyone.

It's reading and understanding.

How many of you utter morons out there can read the language, SEE, directly the chain of command in such instances, and decide, despite the facts, which are overwhelming already, and, yes, Madd, have been provided repeatedly in direct comment to you and through the parties involved, that something else is happening.

The bottom line is nothing has happened in this story yet. The entire reporting on it is Rosenhaus saying the Bears are hot to do Briggs and No. 31 for No. 6 and the Bears are hoping for a call and, apparently, Snyder saying Briggs is a player the Skins would obviously be interest in and they're waiting on the Bears for a call.

I've no clue whether a deal will be made or not. I merely know at this point none has been offered. At this point there's nothing to defend. If the point comes where something is to defend, I'll probably be a little curious as to why this was a necessary move, and, hope, for Gibbs' sake as the decision maker, that it works out well.

[Sarge]

from a Scout.com article on the Bears-Skins maybe trade



http://bears.scout.com/2/630199.html?refid=400&CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

Jay Glazer FOX



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6613558?print=true

Do you even have to ask this question?

The danny is in charge

This is the same crap we've suffered for years. The danny and bug boy have a boner for the flashy player................again

They had to go talk to Gibbs to convince him to go this way


In a normal world, the coaches would be chatting with players, THEN going ot the owner to make it work

[Art]

Do you even have to ask this question?

The danny is in charge

This is the same crap we've suffered for years. The danny and bug boy have a boner for the flashy player................again

They had to go talk to Gibbs to convince him to go this way


In a normal world, the coaches would be chatting with players, THEN going ot the owner to make it work

It's not untrue in a normal world the owner would be making the decision, not, going to the guy he hired to make the decision. I think you're right on target there. Gibbs is the decision maker and head man in charge on such things, which does fly in the face of normal operations where the owner would be asked if he approves as the guy who is in charge. Here, Snyder gave that up to Gibbs. With hope, Gibbs makes the right decision.

[Chris Worthy]

I hope so too. But these negotiations pull back the curtain and reveal the true working nature of this front office, don't they?

So I guess all the other owners are not having any conversations with anyone huh...I guess they are still behind the velet rope waiting to get in and Danny is in the VIP section sipping on Moet and flossing his grill talking to all the hotties. :rolleyes:

[MartinC]

Lastly, let’s spend the money elsewhere like extending Cooley or simply saving it for next year. A novel idea at Redskins park under this owner.

I agree with most of what you said in his post but just one factual point to keep in mind. You can not 'save' this years salary cap and use it next year. You use it this year or you lose it.

Of course if we do sign Briggs - and I am in the please God no camp, at least on the terms reported - then he will want a multi year deal and it will have cap implications for a number of years not just this year.

I hope this is either media spin, a posturing tactic by Danny to smoke some other offers out for the #6 pick or it breaks down when Briggs lets us know how big a signing bonus he wants - hint think BIG.

Now if we could trade them for their 1st and 2nd round picks and Briggs that make it more interesting.

[Sarge]

It's not untrue in a normal world the owner would be making the decision, not, going to the guy he hired to make the decision. I think you're right on target there. Gibbs is the decision maker and head man in charge on such things, which does fly in the face of normal operations where the owner would be asked if he approves as the guy who is in charge. Here, Snyder gave that up to Gibbs. With hope, Gibbs makes the right decision.

My point here is, it apears from the article that the danny and mini-me were the ones that cooked this up and started talking about it to agents at the owners meetings. It implies that once they got a conditional kinda sorta deal, they went to Gibbs to get his input and bounce the idea off him.

I'd much prefer that the coaches be the ones initially scheming and chatting up players/agents, then going to the owner and getting approval

As I said, the process, in the article at least, appears bassackwards. The fact that the danny has operated like that for years only lends credibility to the article

[Skinsinparadise]

Again, the ignorance that goes on about him is one thing, but to suggest he's not a real football guy within the operation of this organization is a joke. More, Madd and the remainder of you having some sluggishness with all this, no one "met" with Rosenhaus, but, if someone were to meet with him, it would be the people who make the contracts and people who hold the Redskins grade on every player. And they run it up the food chain to the guy who makes the call on such matters in every case.

OK, sorry, for more edification are you saying it works this way?

Vinny with his scouting people grade the players and they decide what positions need upgrading. They hatch the idea of trading for Briggs for example.

Then they go to Snyder to see if he's cool with doling out the money.

Then they go to Gibbs to ask if its OK?

If that's the case you are saying if we have a beef with their personnel moves its mostly on Cerrato.

[Walking Deadman]

"Who's in charge?"

I am.
I rule you all-- raise the ticket prices!!!!!!
--- smaller jumbotrons!!!!!
------Bring in TO and Randy Moss!!!!!
------Trade 3 1st rounders to get Norv Turner back!!!!!!
-------Trade Both Portis and Betts!!!!
--Bring Back Lavar and retire his jersey and put him in the Ring of Fame on the Same Day!!!!!!
--- Funky Four on EVERY TV time out especially when we're LOSING!!!!!
--- hire Deion Sanders and Mike Irvin as CB and WR coaches!!!
---Rename FedEx to John "Boom" Madden Arena!!!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :silly:

[Art]

My point here is, it apears from the article that the danny and mini-me were the ones that cooked this up and started talking about it to agents at the owners meetings. It implies that once they got a conditional kinda sorta deal, they went to Gibbs to get his input and bounce the idea off him.

I'd much prefer that the coaches be the ones initially scheming and chatting up players/agents, then going to the owner and getting approval

As I said, the process, in the article at least, appears bassackwards. The fact that the danny has operated like that for years only lends credibility to the article

Sarge,

What conditional trade do you see in these reports that openly state the two teams haven't talked. It's not like he went to the Bears, got the parameters of a deal and now will talk with Gibbs. All you have is Rosenhaus on the record saying the Bears would do the trade and the Skins are interested and Snyder confirmed in writing as saying the Skins have interest in Briggs and making a move for him and the same reporter may have said on radio he heard Snyder over drinks with him say the same.

Whatever the case. The two teams haven't even phoned each other yet. Snyder's saying the Bears are free to call. Rosenhaus is saying the Bears are waiting on the Skins to call. Why do you think Rosenhaus brought Briggs to the owners meetings? To drum up interest. That's it. Not to say we wouldn't trade for Briggs, merely that we haven't even entered the batters box yet.

[riggins44]

I know I'm not in charge. Also know that I don't have any input or say.
All I can do is support and cheer whoever wears the uniform.

[Art]

OK, sorry, for more edification are you saying it works this way?

Vinny with his scouting people grade the players and they decide what positions need upgrading. They hatch the idea of trading for Briggs for example.

Then they go to Snyder to see if he's cool with doling out the money.

Then they go to Gibbs to ask if its OK?

If that's the case you are saying if we have a beef with their personnel moves its mostly on Cerrato.

Uh, no, I'm not saying it does, but, everyone in the organization says it does, so I'm repeating them and believe them. Vinny and the scouts put together a personnel department grade on every player on the Redskins and every free agent in the NFL. They take those grades and hand them to the appropriate coach -- i.e. Williams and the LB coach for Briggs. They get more grades from them. Gibbs applies his as well. Those grades get mixed in a formula that puts a "Redskin grade" on each player, ours and all free agents. I don't know the formula. I don't know who's grade is more valuable on which players.

We then order those grades and create priorities and typically we get the top priorities we set every year. Briggs, obviously, is a guy not prioritized, regardless of grade, likely because the team felt he'd be too hard to get until closer to the draft if it wanted him.

[tone_dubbz]

Errr........shouldn't GW be invlolved in this decision somehow as well?

Not too sure about that one, look at what his talent observation skills got us last year........Adam Arch.

[Sarge]

Sarge,

What conditional trade do you see in these reports that openly state the two teams haven't talked. It's not like he went to the Bears, got the parameters of a deal and now will talk with Gibbs. All you have is Rosenhaus on the record saying the Bears would do the trade and the Skins are interested and Snyder confirmed in writing as saying the Skins have interest in Briggs and making a move for him and the same reporter may have said on radio he heard Snyder over drinks with him say the same.

Whatever the case. The two teams haven't even phoned each other yet. Snyder's saying the Bears are free to call. Rosenhaus is saying the Bears are waiting on the Skins to call. Why do you think Rosenhaus brought Briggs to the owners meetings? To drum up interest. That's it. Not to say we wouldn't trade for Briggs, merely that we haven't even entered the batters box yet.

I almost guarantee the danny has been in a behind the scenes dope deal to get this going. It's the way he operates. Not that this doesn't go on all time, but in our case it's part of the problem, not the solution.

The danny should have his dope dealing privledges revoked. This "Grab the flashy guy thing" the danny seems to be afflicted with has kept us mired in mediocrity for years. There are so many other areas where we need, if not a competant starter, at least a competant backup.

Trade down, get picks and do somethig football-like with them, like beef up the lines. Especially if the rumours of us going 3-4 come true. We need a big fat slob at nose tackle

[MartinC]

Especially if the rumours of us going 3-4 come true. We need a big fat slob at nose tackle

What rumours? I have not seen any serious rumours of us going 3-4 and would be amazed if we did - we just do not have the D'Line folk you need to run that system.

Carter - who played well the ast 5 or so games - is certainly not a 3-4 DE. Does he drop to OLB as well. Getting kind of crowded at OLB if we add Briggs as well as having Marcus, Lemar and Rocky but a bit thin at ILB were we have London Fletcher and not much else unless you move Marcus inside I guess.

On the line that leaves us with Daniels and Wynn starting at DE - not great I would say and Griffin is in no way a 3-4 NT so what do you do with him?

Forget the 3-4 we do not have the personnel to run it and it is 2-3 year project to get them IMO.

Just run the 4-3 but run it well, add a DE who can get to the QB and hold up against the run and give the secondary some help. Forget Briggs - DL is where we need help not LB.

[SkinsFTW]

At this point there's nothing to defend. If the point comes where something is to defend, I'll probably be a little curious as to why this was a necessary move, and, hope, for Gibbs' sake as the decision maker, that it works out well.

Briggs and the #31 for the #6 is garbage. You can't deny that if this is the trade that we got owned once again and will have no DL in 07 unless we get complete luck and have no injuries at all for the entire year.

[TheLongshot]

I almost guarantee the danny has been in a behind the scenes dope deal to get this going. It's the way he operates. Not that this doesn't go on all time, but in our case it's part of the problem, not the solution.

What makes you think that other owners don't do this as well? I mean, that's why there is a rumor mill at owners meetings, because deals happen at the ownership level all the time.

It just happens that when it involves publically involved owners like Danny, it gets more press. It especially gets more press when a self-promoter like Rosenhaus suggests such a deal in public.

Until something actually happens, it is just talk. There are probably a lot of deals that get tossed around, both by agents and by owners. Most of which doesn't get any press.

Jason

[Hooper]

This just has to be a smokescreen.

And if it isn't, well it doesn't matter who Art or MRMADD say is or isn't in charge -- it will just be another example of how the Redskins with this front office have no real plan for building a stable, winning franchise.

And it's not about "final say." Considering their absolutely horrible track records, Snyder and Cerrato should HAVE NO SAY AT ALL.

Cerrato needs to be kicked to the curb.

Danny should just sign the checks.

[big z]

if the bears don't think he's worth the money.

why would the skins think he's worth the money AND a top draft choice.

stupid is as stupid does.

[McD5]

from a Scout.com article on the Bears-Skins maybe trade



http://bears.scout.com/2/630199.html?refid=400&CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

Jay Glazer FOX



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6613558?print=true


No one is in charge, obviously. That is the problem with our beloved Skins. If Gibbs doesn't even want to coach anymore, why is he even here? To be a figure head? To suckle off a huge contract with Snyder to pay for his pending Long Term Care alzheimers needs? It is absurd.

[onnie007]

geez man, aren't we set at linebacker? Briggs made it known that he wants to get paid. So why would you offer big money for a position that is currently in tact?

Thats what I thought. I thought our need was DL. Why would we pay Briggs as the top LB in the league (which is what he wants) even though its not even a top need anymore? I think he is a system player in that Tampa Cover 2 defense and will fail to make a major impact in our traditional 4-3 scheme.

[Sekhmet187]

...

SO I'm guessing noone thinks Washington could find a capable starter at the top of the 1st round?

So I'm guessing teams like Indy and the Pats never find good starters with their picks that are in the late 1st round either?

I don't understand all the outrage. The Redskins could still find a terrific player at #31.

Plus, the LB core isn't that great. And even if Washington returns back to his old self, he is still getting older and Rocky could easily be his solid backup and eventual replacement. Briggs would be infinitely better than Marshall.

The Redskins haven't seen a great "athelete" at LB since LaVar was in his prime.

[GSF]

"Who's in charge?"

Charles!!

[GSF]

Trade down, get picks and do somethig football-like with them, like beef up the lines. Especially if the rumours of us going 3-4 come true. We need a big fat slob at nose tackle

You mean the rumor that Om posted? I'm pretty sure Om was joking with that one. :laugh: The team won't switch to a 3-4 b/c they don't have the right personel. I'd still like to see them grab a big NT as you suggest though. I think they will probably end up drafting Branch with that 6 pick.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

gibbs will say yes. he loves free agents just as much as danny does, all the gibbs lovers just wont admit it. this trade will happen, and the only way its good is if we draft a huge DT to play next to griff, or our elite LBs will be tackling RBs 6 yards past the LOS every play.

[deejaydana]

It's dumb business to trade at highest value for a player that is disgruntled and miserable. That's how the Broncos got a second out of us for the Clinton Portis/Champ Bailey deal. When a player has the team in a barrel and he's sending them down the Falls, that's when you get to make a deal in YOUR favor. Any deal that is remotely fair or in their favor is stupid. They need to get rid of him and we don't really need him.
:applause:

Why can't Cerrato understand the term:
"negotiate from a position of strength"

[MRMADD]

:applause:

Why can't Cerrato understand the term:
"negotiate from a position of strength"

The weird thing is, we are in a position of strength. We know Chicago doesn't want to pay Briggs what he's asking, and he's threatening to hold out. They're the ones who should be sweating.

But Danny and Vinny just drop their shorts anyway.

[Sarge]

...

SO I'm guessing noone thinks Washington could find a capable starter at the top of the 1st round?

So I'm guessing teams like Indy and the Pats never find good starters with their picks that are in the late 1st round either?

I don't understand all the outrage. The Redskins could still find a terrific player at #31.



That would mena we'd have to have a scouting department

[gortiz]

That last quote sounded like Dan and Vinny were two brothers going to ask Dad if they can borrow the car to go get Aerosmith tickets.

Clearly Joe has the last say. Hopefully, he says the right things.


that was classic Cardas, the imagery after I read that was soooo detailed! :silly:

As far as to answer Bubba's question, I think there is a lot to be said about AA's quote about the Skins. I have a feeling that is more then a disgruntled player taking a few parting shots. I really think behind the closed doors, Danny is still pulling everyone, including Joe Jackson's strings.

[MRMADD]

That would mena we'd have to have a scouting department

We do OK scouting in the first round. I'm no draft expert, but I think I'd be happy with any of these guys:

1. Calvin Johnson Jr. WR Georgia Tech
Hard worker and team oriented.
2. Joe Thomas Sr. OT Wisconsin
Imposing lineman with great quickness.
3. Adrian Peterson Jr. RB Oklahoma
Great runner, but has durability issues.
4. JaMarcus Russell Jr. QB LSU
Big and strong with a powerful arm.
5. Brady Quinn Sr. QB Notre Dame
Poised and at his best under pressure.
6. LaRon Landry Sr. DB LSU
Leader on one of the nation's best defenses.
7. Amobi Okoye Sr. DT Louisville
Quick, strong and gets penetration into the backfield.
8. Gaines Adams Sr. DE Clemson
Dominating ability with his athleticism.
9. Leon Hall Sr. CB Michigan
Great anticipation and awareness in coverage.
10. Levi Brown Sr. OT Penn St.
Reliable at protecting his QB's blind side.

Now, some of those guys don't fit our immediate needs on the defensive line, but neither does Briggs.

[RFKFedEx]

Why don't Kraft and Pioli ever go public about their potential deals before consulting Belichick? I thought we were supposed to be "like the Patriots"!

It's funny how Danny's no longer mute to the press when it comes time for personnel decision making.

Danny pipes up to Foxsports.com after a YEAR of silence to all media not owned by Red Zebra.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

There could be 20 other teams who think Briggs would be a nice addition at the right price. And 20 owners talking to Briggs, Bears GM, Rosenhaus etc.

Rosenhaus knows who butters his bread, so this rumor starts with the team that everyone knows for 'making a splash in the offseason' and 'breaking the bank' on contracts-

Your... Washington... Redskins!!!

So the publicity machine is jammin' today, and any publicity is good publicity they say. Good for LB, good for Drew, good for the Danny because we are, at this point, doing everything BUT advertising on billboards that the sixth pick in the 2007 NFL Draft is available.

[Seabee1973]

It's dumb business to trade at highest value for a player that is disgruntled and miserable. That's how the Broncos got a second out of us for the Clinton Portis/Champ Bailey deal. When a player has the team in a barrel and he's sending them down the Falls, that's when you get to make a deal in YOUR favor. Any deal that is remotely fair or in their favor is stupid. They need to get rid of him and we don't really need him.

actually the second was to acguire portis since he was still under contract.

[illone]

I hope so too. But these negotiations pull back the curtain and reveal the true working nature of this front office, don't they?


If you're inclined to believe that the reports hold merit, then sure.

[MRMADD]

If you're inclined to believe that the reports hold merit, then sure.

Right. The media is lying. Again. It's that damn conspiracy that keeps cropping up.

[Art]

Right. The media is lying. Again. It's that damn conspiracy that keeps cropping up.

No one's lying. The report marries up precisely with what the people who run our organization have long said. Each has a role and Gibbs is the head man in charge. Pretty simple. I know you apparently think if Gibbs doesn't make every call, meet every agent, dot every i, cross every t, withdraw funds directly from Snyder's bank account, wires all computers at the Park, resods the grass, does the game announcing and all other things then he's not running things. But, the reports prove he is, again, as has already been proven. Deal with it and make that part of your thinking.

[illone]

Right. The media is lying. Again. It's that damn conspiracy that keeps cropping up.


They've been wrong more than right this off-season.

:)

[MRMADD]

No one's lying. The report marries up precisely with what the people who run our organization have long said. Each has a role and Gibbs is the head man in charge. Pretty simple. I know you apparently think if Gibbs doesn't make every call, meet every agent, dot every i, cross every t, withdraw funds directly from Snyder's bank account, wires all computers at the Park, resods the grass, does the game announcing and all other things then he's not running things. But, the reports prove he is, again, as has already been proven. Deal with it and make that part of your thinking.

Here's the thing: you have provided absolutely nothing to support your little theory. Nothing. And you ignore all the media reports that shred your theory.

And, further, to believe you we have to forget everything we know about Gibbs. Here's the story as reported: Danny and Vinny scheme with Drew Rosenhaus. They agree to a deal. Rosenhaus takes it to the Bears. Danny and Vinny meet with Briggs. Danny talks to the media.

And then they try to find Gibbs.

Here's the problem: we all know Gibbs is an INCREDIBLY detail oriented guy. He's not just going to say, "OK, Danny and Vinny, you guys go figure this out." We're talking about his most valuable asset -- the #6 pick. That's the kind of pick that can have a huge impact on the team's fortunes. And you're telling us that Joe is so disinterested in how we use it that he can't even be bothered about it until after the media has been told?

Come on. It's obvious that Danny ain't just writing checks. We already know he's making football decisions (as reported in the WP earlier this year). We know he sets the budget. We know he negotiates the contracts. And now we know that he's off by himself -- without Joe -- and making decisions about trading away the #6 pick.

The fact that he eventually sends Vinny to tell Joe doesn't change anything. The Joe Gibbs we know would be intimately involved in every detail. Unless, of course, he's not really running the personnel side of the business.

[JC girl]

please say no Joe.

[Art]

Madd,

The Post never suggested that anyone in the organization has said Snyder is making football decisions and these reports prove he's not. Gibbs is. If a trade is made, it's Gibbs who'll ultimately make it. And he'll tell you so. But, yes, I know, the upstanding coach will lie to you :).

[MRMADD]

Madd,

The Post never suggested that anyone in the organization has said Snyder is making football decisions and these reports prove he's not. Gibbs is. If a trade is made, it's Gibbs who'll ultimately make it. And he'll tell you so. But, yes, I know, the upstanding coach will lie to you :).

The WP didn't "suggest", the WP story quoted Joe Gibbs himself as saying that the football decisions comes down to him AND DANNY. Not just him. You're calling Joe Gibbs a liar again.

[Stew]

The WP didn't "suggest", the WP story quoted Joe Gibbs himself as saying that the football decisions comes down to him AND DANNY. Not just him. You're calling Joe Gibbs a liar again.


You really just come here to argue with the Mods, dont ya? :laugh:

[MRMADD]

You really just come here to argue with the Mods, dont ya? :laugh:

Yeah. I'm like a ray of sunlight trying to peek through some pretty dense clouds.

And they love me for it. OK, "love" is too strong a word. "Like" me. OK, OK, maybe not "like". Maybe "don't entirely despise." Yeah, that's it. They don't entirely despise me for it. Most of the time.

[Art]

The WP didn't "suggest", the WP story quoted Joe Gibbs himself as saying that the football decisions comes down to him AND DANNY. Not just him. You're calling Joe Gibbs a liar again.

Gibbs told the exact truth, as he always has. Like standing up saying he's the guy making all these moves. The quote, was a remark he does have to ask the owner if he can spend the owner's money. But, you've chosen to ignore these facts for a long time.

[chipwhich]

No one's lying. The report marries up precisely with what the people who run our organization have long said. Each has a role and Gibbs is the head man in charge. Pretty simple. I know you apparently think if Gibbs doesn't make every call, meet every agent, dot every i, cross every t, withdraw funds directly from Snyder's bank account, wires all computers at the Park, resods the grass, does the game announcing and all other things then he's not running things. But, the reports prove he is, again, as has already been proven. Deal with it and make that part of your thinking.

Art I believe you are right. The trade doesn't occur unless Gibbs ok's it.

If you think Rosenhaus didn't drop a little cell phone call to Mr. Snyder and say I can get you a Lance Briggs and a Chicago first rounder for your first...then you are naive. I guarantee you they chatted.

Then Danny calls Gibbs with the exciting news. Gibbs certainly could deny the trade. I believe Danny would listen. But as shown last year, Joe Gibbs gets all giddy about these deals as well....and he see's this exciting poker hand and makes a play.

So if you want to say Danny has no influence in this scenario you certainly are allowed your opinion. Its just not my view.

[Art]

Art I believe you are right. The trade doesn't occur unless Gibbs ok's it.

If you think Rosenhaus didn't drop a little cell phone call to Mr. Snyder and say I can get you a Lance Briggs and a Chicago first rounder for your first...then you are naive. I guarantee you they chatted.

Then Danny calls Gibbs with the exciting news. Gibbs certainly could deny the trade. I believe Danny would listen. But as shown last year, Joe Gibbs gets all giddy about these deals as well....and he see's this exciting poker hand and makes a play.

So if you want to say Danny has no influence in this scenario you certainly are allowed your opinion. Its just not my view.

I'm sure Rosenhaus has talked to a number of people in our organization and every other one about Briggs. He IS at the owner's meetings. You don't think he's run into other owners? No one doubts that's the case. We just know Gibbs decides if it's a good or bad move. No one else does.

[LD0506]

While I tend to be one of those wait-and-see types that prefers to have actual facts to discuss rather than batting speculations and rumors around like a shuttlecock, I do have to love any thread that makes Art ask "How many of you utter morons out there can read the language?" :laugh:

[luciusism]

At this point, I'm growing somewhat tired of people being idiots...
How many of you utter morons out there can read the language...

:doh: Not cool.

I recently read JLC's missive on the Arch deal and maybe this helps shed some light on the debate:

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2007/03/arch_redux_i_got_on_a_bit_of_a.html

"And please, don't try to pin this stuff on the coaches. Go back and read the stories Howard and I did at the end of the season. Ain't no way Gregg Williams, Al Saunders or anyone not named Joe, Dan, or, gasp, Vinny, is saying a word. They take part in personnel meetings along with the scouts, make their case for players when asked to and then sit on the other side of the building while Dan and Joe wheel and deal in from the owner's office.

And, no, just like you or I could not just burst into our boss's office and demand that a certain co-worker be kept and try to dictate to the owner how much to spend on valuable job resources, neither can any coach do that at Redskins Park. That's not how it works. It's Dan and Joe and cap guy Eric Schaffer doing all of the negotiating and budgeting, and no one else has a clue what's going on. "

So maybe we can just say that we're all correct and that both Dan and Joe are involved? Do we really need to debate their respective level of involvement? If mistakes are made, both deserve fault, regardless of how involved or who originated the personnel decisions.

[Sarge]

Hey Bubba

Still wonder who is on charge?:doh:

[pjfootballer]

Here's who's in charge:

http://www.abc-kid.com/charlesincharge/pictures/tn_003_jpg.jpg

[Art]

Right. No one thinks the coaching staff is negotiating or setting budgets or doing anything like that. That's exactly who this article states. And, no one has ever said Snyder is not "involved". Everyone has always stated Snyder is involved in a certain way -- i.e. to set the budget, pay the bills and negotiate the larger contracts -- and Gibbs is responsible for all football operations moves and decisions.

Dan's being charged with BEING in charge and making football decisions. As the owner, he does have to set the budget. Can't really avoid that. Fortunately, he sets the best budget in the league, so we're pleased with that. But, lucius, thanks for being one of the utter morons who can't read the language and follow the conversation.

[bubba9497]

per Tandler


And then, after a few minutes of excited chatter among Snyder, Cerrato, and Rosenhaus, either Snyder or Cerrato said it.


“We’ve got to get in touch with Gibbs.”


It was like a group of teenage boys saying, “This is gonna be a great road trip. But we’ve gotta get Dad to give us the keys to the car.”


Four years ago Snyder and Rosenhaus would have drawn up the parameters of a contract agreement on the back of a cocktail napkin. Next year’s first-rounder would have been throw in to the deal to overcome any reluctance the Bears may have had. Cerrato would have been sent scurrying to the Biltmore gift shop to get a Redskins cap for Briggs to wear at the announcement of the deal.


But Gibbs, the grown up, is in charge of such things now and so everyone involved was forced to take a deep breath. Such decisions are not made in the heat of the moment.

http://blog.redskinsgames.com/

[Mister Happy]

Nobody doubts that the team is organized with Gibbs as the one in charge. Gibbs is the President, and he has final say.

This is nothing new.

Just imagine if Vinny and Danny had went over Gibbs head and orchestrated this deal. That would be a huge public slap in the face to Gibbs, and it would shake the foundation of the team. It's not going to happen.

What we have here is a deal that was initiated by Danny and Vinny. Then later they went and told Gibbs. What did they tell him? Chicago had said absolutely nothing at that point. The only thing they could have told him was they decided they wanted to make a play for Briggs.

The standard mode of operation is that Gibbs (based on input from scouts, coaches, etc.) decides he wants a player, and Danny fires up Redskins One to go get him. That's not what happened here.

There was no secret that Briggs was available. If Gibbs wanted him, they could have made a play for him a long time ago. This was a decision by Vinny and Danny.

It doesn't necessarily prove they are in charge, but it doesn't look good when Vinny and Danny are wheeling and dealing behind Gibbs back.

[Art]

Nobody doubts that the team is organized with Gibbs as the one in charge. Gibbs is the President, and he has final say.

This is nothing new.

According to Madd and his dopey minions, this is, indeed new. They still think because Snyder has the audacity to set a budget for operations -- one he exceeds any time Gibbs calls and asks -- that he's too involved, and therefore in charge.

As for what we have here, we have a trade that was initiated by Drew Rosenhaus. The Bears are upset that he is trying to leverage things against them. Indeed, when people talk to the Redskins about a trade offer, they NEVER generally go RIGHT to Gibbs when the talks are informal. They go to people around him, who take it to him, and the team decides on a direction.

Apparently if Gibbs isn't listening in on every conversation everyone in the organization is having, it means he's not in charge according to some. Honestly people, the NFL works this way. People develop relationships. People pitch ideas to each other every day. And the organization, EVERY ORGANIZATION, evaluates those ideas and decides what they feel is best for the organization.

None of this is a mystery.

No one is wheeling and dealing BEFORE the FIRST contact between teams. You know?

[BAFGA]

I am.
I rule you all--
--- Funky Four on EVERY TV time out especially when we're LOSING!!!!!



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!! :mad:

[BAFGA]

per Tandler

And then, after a few minutes of excited chatter among Snyder, Cerrato, and Rosenhaus, either Snyder or Cerrato said it.


“We’ve got to get in touch with Gibbs.”


It was like a group of teenage boys saying, “This is gonna be a great road trip. But we’ve gotta get Dad to give us the keys to the car.”


Four years ago Snyder and Rosenhaus would have drawn up the parameters of a contract agreement on the back of a cocktail napkin. Next year’s first-rounder would have been throw in to the deal to overcome any reluctance the Bears may have had. Cerrato would have been sent scurrying to the Biltmore gift shop to get a Redskins cap for Briggs to wear at the announcement of the deal.


But Gibbs, the grown up, is in charge of such things now and so everyone involved was forced to take a deep breath. Such decisions are not made in the heat of the moment.

http://blog.redskinsgames.com/

I knew Tandler had some sense.

[MRMADD]

According to Madd and his dopey minions, this is, indeed new. They still think because Snyder has the audacity to set a budget for operations -- one he exceeds any time Gibbs calls and asks -- that he's too involved, and therefore in charge.

It's Mr Madd, damnit. You'd think you'd be used to subserviently calling people "Mister" by now.

And I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge two things: one, Snyder is involved in football decisionmaking. This has been reported over and over, and Gibbs has been quoted as saying that the final authority for football decisions is him and Snyder. Can you say it out loud?

Second, Snyder actually negotiates the deals directly with the agents. He decides what to pay them. Want to know who's responsible for making Archuleta the highest paid benchwarmer in league history? Or trading two draft picks to rent a backup running back that Gibbs didn't use? Or trading two draft picks for a punk wide receiver who Gibbs benched? You get three guesses, and all of them better be "Snyder".

Can you acknowledge both of those things? Either of those things? Or do you still cling to the misguided belief that Snyder just sets the budget?

[Art]

It's Mr Madd, damnit. You'd think you'd be used to subserviently calling people "Mister" by now.

And I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge two things: one, Snyder is involved in football decisionmaking. This has been reported over and over, and Gibbs has been quoted as saying that the final authority for football decisions is him and Snyder. Can you say it out loud?

Second, Snyder actually negotiates the deals directly with the agents. He decides what to pay them. Want to know who's responsible for making Archuleta the highest paid benchwarmer in league history? Or trading two draft picks to rent a backup running back that Gibbs didn't use? Or trading two draft picks for a punk wide receiver who Gibbs benched? You get three guesses, and all of them better be "Snyder".

Can you acknowledge both of those things? Either of those things? Or do you still cling to the misguided belief that Snyder just sets the budget?

Sorry Mister.

Snyder's not involved in football decision making beyond setting a budget and having Gibbs ask him if he can go over it for moves he wants, so, by holding the purse, he could make decisions if he chose, but he doesn't. Which is exactly what Gibbs has said. Gibbs has said, over and over and over and over, that HE is the guy who ultimately makes all the decisions, so no one else is the guy.

Does Snyder speak? Does Snyder have access to the operations side of the building where he might be able to engage Gibbs in conversation? Sure. Again, access does not mean involvement in the decision making process, which is acknowledged by all, BUT YOU, to be the domain of Joe Gibbs. When Snyder starts turning Gibbs down because he won't go over budget as Gibbs routinely asks, then you can argue he makes football decisions on the backside he doesn't do now. Until then, try to understand what you're being told.

Snyder does negotiate the CONTRACTS with players, but the deals are negotiated by Gibbs. Gibbs is the guy who signs off on what picks are a go for what players. Snyder makes the money talk, which he does a very good job of.

[MRMADD]

Sorry Mister.

Thank you. Now I feel better.


Snyder's not involved in football decision making beyond setting a budget... Gibbs has said, over and over and over and over, that HE is the guy who ultimately makes all the decisions, so no one else is the guy....

That's not what Gibbs says. He laid it out pretty clearly: the front office scouts the players. The coaches grade them. And then he and Snyder make the decisions. He was directly quotes saying exactly that.


Snyder does negotiate the CONTRACTS with players, but the deals are negotiated by Gibbs.

Nope. Snyder does a lot more than that. There's a reason Rosenhaus seeks out Snyder to work out the framework of deals, not Gibbs. A reason beyond just getting his client's name on SportsCenter, of course.

[TheLongshot]

It's Mr Madd, damnit. You'd think you'd be used to subserviently calling people "Mister" by now.

Well, you are 2 years old. :silly:


And I'm still waiting for you to acknowledge two things: one, Snyder is involved in football decisionmaking. This has been reported over and over, and Gibbs has been quoted as saying that the final authority for football decisions is him and Snyder. Can you say it out loud?

And it was pretty clear today that the buck stops with Gibbs. No one denies that Snyder is involved in some way, but he's not the ones making the big choices of what players are on this team.


Second, Snyder actually negotiates the deals directly with the agents. He decides what to pay them. Want to know who's responsible for making Archuleta the highest paid benchwarmer in league history? Or trading two draft picks to rent a backup running back that Gibbs didn't use? Or trading two draft picks for a punk wide receiver who Gibbs benched? You get three guesses, and all of them better be "Snyder".

And that answer probably would be wrong for some of those. Yes, Snyder does get involved with some of the negotiations, but he isn't the only guy involved. Schaffer is the guy who manages the cap, and almost certainly all contracts go through him before they are signed.

As for the trades, that's all on Gibbs. Read JLC's article about both Lloyd and Duckett and that there was a lot of interest in both from the coaching staff.

BTW, I'm still looking for any comfirmation that we are giving Denver two picks for Duckett. As far as I know, the intention of the trade was to give Denver a high 3rd. As far as I can see, that's what we gave them.

Jason

[MRMADD]

No one denies that Snyder is involved in some way, but he's not the ones making the big choices of what players are on this team.

Actually, Art denies that Snyder is involved. He maintains that Snyder just sets the budget and signs the contracts.

[Mister Happy]

As for what we have here, we have a trade that was initiated by Drew Rosenhaus. The Bears are upset that he is trying to leverage things against them. Indeed, when people talk to the Redskins about a trade offer, they NEVER generally go RIGHT to Gibbs when the talks are informal. They go to people around him, who take it to him, and the team decides on a direction.

Apparently if Gibbs isn't listening in on every conversation everyone in the organization is having, it means he's not in charge according to some. Honestly people, the NFL works this way. People develop relationships. People pitch ideas to each other every day. And the organization, EVERY ORGANIZATION, evaluates those ideas and decides what they feel is best for the organization.

None of this is a mystery.

No one is wheeling and dealing BEFORE the FIRST contact between teams. You know?

It's not like Drew came to Snyder with a deal from the Bears. The Bears didn't know anything about it.

Drew had no new info, and that's the key. We knew Briggs was on the market, long before this ever happened, and we did nothing.

It's one thing if Gibbs had wanted Briggs, but they couldn't make and deal. Then later Drew comes to Danny with an offer. That's people "having conversations" without Gibbs listening in, but that's not what happened.

Drew was the instigator, but Danny and Vinny initiated the trade, not Gibbs. The only way that it wasn't behind his back would be if Gibbs was on board with getting Briggs long before these talks, but there's nothing to indicate that he was. Otherwise, we would have talked to Chicago earlier.

It's not merely "pitching ideas" because this idea is not a new idea at all. It was probably discussed at Redskins Park ad naseum months ago. If it had wings back then, it would have taken off. It didn't.

[TheLongshot]

Actually, Art denies that Snyder is involved. He maintains that Snyder just sets the budget and signs the contracts.

That is being involved. :rolleyes:

Jason

[MRMADD]

That is being involved. :rolleyes:

Jason

Nope. Gibbs has been clear: Snyder is involved in make football decisions. He's helping decide which players to sign, what to trade for them -- football decisions that he has proven wholly unqualified to make. And you know it.

[Art]

Actually, Art denies that Snyder is involved. He maintains that Snyder just sets the budget and signs the contracts.


I've said he's involved. I've disagree he's involved in DECISIONS, so, you need to be clear what you're asking. Snyder has a clear role within the operations of the team, one he and everyone else has outlined for you. But, when it comes to the decisions this team makes, he is not involved. He, like every other consequential member of the organization, may offer input to the head coach, team President, but, the decisions are concluded by Gibbs, as you know, so, Snyder's not involved in the decisions that direct us in any way different from everyone else, INCLUDING ALL OF US. Gibbs knows the conversation about the Briggs move and that is input he'll consider too in making the decision he'll ultimately make.

[Art]

Nope. Gibbs has been clear: Snyder is involved in make football decisions. He's helping decide which players to sign, what to trade for them -- football decisions that he has proven wholly unqualified to make. And you know it.

And now you've used "decisions" again, so, again, when you figure out what you're asking, we can answer. As I've said, informed you actually many times, Snyder is involved in aspects of the team. He makes the budget, as he's said. He negotiates some contracts with others. He signs the checks. That's involvement in football operations. Involvement in football operations decisions is something else entirely and there, beyond being another point of input, he has no special role.

[Art]

It's not like Drew came to Snyder with a deal from the Bears. The Bears didn't know anything about it.

Drew had no new info, and that's the key. We knew Briggs was on the market, long before this ever happened, and we did nothing.

It's one thing if Gibbs had wanted Briggs, but they couldn't make and deal. Then later Drew comes to Danny with an offer. That's people "having conversations" without Gibbs listening in, but that's not what happened.

Drew was the instigator, but Danny and Vinny initiated the trade, not Gibbs. The only way that it wasn't behind his back would be if Gibbs was on board with getting Briggs long before these talks, but there's nothing to indicate that he was. Otherwise, we would have talked to Chicago earlier.

It's not merely "pitching ideas" because this idea is not a new idea at all. It was probably discussed at Redskins Park ad naseum months ago. If it had wings back then, it would have taken off. It didn't.

Ok.

Here's the big secret you guys don't seem to get.

You know that combine thing and all those draft workouts for players that everyone attends? You know how the prospects have all gone through their stuff with scouts from all the teams possibly interested? Well, in, say, the day after the Super Bowl when Briggs and the Bears may have had a problem start, we didn't have any of that data.

When Briggs was named the franchise player, we didn't have any of that data.

When Briggs started complaining about the Bears, we didn't have any of that data.

As we've gotten that data, as Gibbs said today, you'd hate to find yourself stuck at No. 6 taking a player you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY believe has a flaw in his game that makes the pick a question mark by the people MAKING the pick.

Which is why moving up, or down, or talking about Briggs -- and others that will soon make the paper -- is done now, when you have more data, than before, when you were evaluating your data. And, it was GIBBS who initiated talks with the Bears. He called them today.

[GSF]

Snyder is involved in make football decisions. He's helping decide which players to sign...

Oh please. You really think that Snyder is evaluating talent? This isn't Jerry Jones we're talking about here. :laugh:

Just because Rosenhaus likes to talk to Snyder about his clients that might like to become Redskins doesn't mean that Snyder is making roster moves. Use your brain.

[Mister Happy]

Ok.

Here's the big secret you guys don't seem to get.

You know that combine thing and all those draft workouts for players that everyone attends? You know how the prospects have all gone through their stuff with scouts from all the teams possibly interested? Well, in, say, the day after the Super Bowl when Briggs and the Bears may have had a problem start, we didn't have any of that data.

When Briggs was named the franchise player, we didn't have any of that data.

When Briggs started complaining about the Bears, we didn't have any of that data.

As we've gotten that data, as Gibbs said today, you'd hate to find yourself stuck at No. 6 taking a player you REALLY, REALLY, REALLY believe has a flaw in his game that makes the pick a question mark by the people MAKING the pick.

Which is why moving up, or down, or talking about Briggs -- and others that will soon make the paper -- is done now, when you have more data, than before, when you were evaluating your data. And, it was GIBBS who initiated talks with the Bears. He called them today.

None of that data came from Vinny and Danny talking to Drew Rosenhaus. That data has been out for weeks, now.

Was it a coincidence that they happened to decide to act on the data on the same day they talked to Drew?

Who told Gibbs to call the Bears?

[Art]

None of that data came from Vinny and Danny talking to Drew Rosenhaus. That data has been out for weeks, now.

Was it a coincidence that they happened to decide to act on the data on the same day they talked to Drew?

Who told Gibbs to call the Bears?

No one told Gibbs to call the Bears. Gibbs was told the Bears might be interested in a trade for Briggs and Gibbs may have called -- as he said today, to kick things around, which differs from sitting down and making the final decision on something.

Just another option in a long line of options available to us, as every team. And, no, the data hasn't been available for weeks guy. The Louisville Pro Day was done on Monday. The last of the days we had a guy we wanted to look at in. And we're still compiling what we think it all means. One thing Gibbs said he thinks it already means is a guy at No. 6 might have some serious problems that worries the team.

Oh, and, do bear in mind, the first hint the Redskins might be a team interested in Briggs came some time ago when Rosenhaus first released it to the media and we were mentioned as one of the teams in articles then. The point remains, the team has data now it didn't have weeks ago.

The situation today is different than then.

So, at least we can agree you won't say since we didn't try to acquire Briggs in March that it means anything at all.

[Mister Happy]

No one told Gibbs to call the Bears. Gibbs was told the Bears might be interested in a trade for Briggs and Gibbs may have called -- as he said today, to kick things around, which differs from sitting down and making the final decision on something.

Just another option in a long line of options available to us, as every team. And, no, the data hasn't been available for weeks guy. The Louisville Pro Day was done on Monday. The last of the days we had a guy we wanted to look at in. And we're still compiling what we think it all means. One thing Gibbs said he thinks it already means is a guy at No. 6 might have some serious problems that worries the team.

Oh, and, do bear in mind, the first hint the Redskins might be a team interested in Briggs came some time ago when Rosenhaus first released it to the media and we were mentioned as one of the teams in articles then. The point remains, the team has data now it didn't have weeks ago.

The situation today is different than then.

So, at least we can agree you won't say since we didn't try to acquire Briggs in March that it means anything at all.


Snyder and football operations man Vinny Cerato left to find head coach Joe Gibbs regarding the deal.

Then what did Vinny and Danny leave to tell Gibbs?

[GSF]

Then what did Vinny and Danny leave to tell Gibbs?

To say, hey, Drew let us know that Briggs is interested in becoming a Redskin and proposed the following trade...

[Mister Happy]

To say, hey, Drew let us know that Briggs is interested in becoming a Redskin and proposed the following trade...

So what new information was gained?

[Art]

So what new information was gained?

That all the draft picks have been scouted and the team is worried about who's there at No. 6. Just a day after the last one, they are in a place where a free agent franchise player is and the agent for that player suggests that player would love playing for Washington and Chicago has told him they are interested in moving him. Queue Gibbs who decides to see what the options are.

Or, heck, how about this. We're talking with other teams about moving up for Calvin Johnson. They are trying to steal the farm from us, so, our owner over drinks hollers at Rosenhaus we'd move for Briggs, as the story sweeps league circles, the teams trying to get OUT of early picks feel modestly more pressure that a potential suitor not too far back in the draft MIGHT go another direction.

A million things are going on right now. But, when the owner and personnel chief run off to the President of the team to see what he thinks about something, it probably tells you who the guy making the decisions on stuff is. Why is this an exercise in insanity for you guys?

[GSF]

So what new information was gained?

I'm sorry if I'm a little slow here, but I don't understand the confusion. It sounds like Rosenhaus made a pitch to Snyder, and Snyder took it to Gibbs, who will ultimately decide what to do. What's wrong with that?

[Mister Happy]

That all the draft picks have been scouted and the team is worried about who's there at No. 6. Just a day after the last one, they are in a place where a free agent franchise player is and the agent for that player suggests that player would love playing for Washington and Chicago has told him they are interested in moving him. Queue Gibbs who decides to see what the options are.


Oh, and, do bear in mind, the first hint the Redskins might be a team interested in Briggs came some time ago when Rosenhaus first released it to the media and we were mentioned as one of the teams in articles then.

Add these together, and you've got yourself a reasonable Gibbs-in-charge explanation of the events.

[Art]

Add these together, and you've got yourself a reasonable Gibbs-in-charge explanation of the events.

Beyond reasonable to iron clad and not for the first time. At some point the words we've had in chats with us here and the words given the media constantly need to be understood within the context WE know to be true without having to constantly address something that has long been settled law.

It'd be nice if reality was not the exclusive kryptonite of the, "Snyder is evil," crew.

[bubba9497]

Shanahan has complete power in the team's football operations - Broncos owner Pat Bowlen simply called it "Mike's department" when discussing this week the team's offseason changes. Gibbs also has that kind of power, as well as one of the NFL's more deep-pocketed owners in Snyder, willing to freely spend that cash on the football team.


http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/nfl/article/0,2777,DRMN_23918_5450232,00.html

[Passizle]

...Charles...

[Beer is Food]

Mr. Madd is right on. The chain of events reflects an increase in Snyder's role in the operational decision making process. Atleast, He has more of a role than the franchise lets on. Now, I really question whether Gibbs really demoted himself as offensive coordinator. Now, as a die hard fan, I can legitimitly question whether the Coach is really the coach? I've given Snyder the benefit of the doubt in the past, and supported him because he's willing to open that check book to give the coach what he wants... Now... I don't know... Does Snyder still Trust in Gibbs?

[Aston]

Mr. Madd is right on. The chain of events reflects an increase in Snyder's role in the operational decision making process. Atleast, He has more of a role than the franchise lets on. Now, I really question whether Gibbs really demoted himself as offensive coordinator. Now, as a die hard fan, I can legitimitly question whether the Coach is really the coach? I've given Snyder the benefit of the doubt in the past, and supported him because he's willing to open that check book to give the coach what he wants... Now... I don't know... Does Snyder still Trust in Gibbs?An interesting point. If he doesn't coach offense, and he doesn't coach defense, and he's not in charge of operations, you'd wonder what the heck DOES he do? I still believe all big decisions, on or off the field, need his blessing and that he's still a far cry from being NFL's Joe Paterno - legendary coach that doesn't really do anything anymore.

[Dick Edds]

Gibb's coaches the coaches

[bubba9497]

Mr. Madd is right on. The chain of events reflects an increase in Snyder's role in the operational decision making process. Atleast, He has more of a role than the franchise lets on. Now, I really question whether Gibbs really demoted himself as offensive coordinator. Now, as a die hard fan, I can legitimitly question whether the Coach is really the coach? I've given Snyder the benefit of the doubt in the past, and supported him because he's willing to open that check book to give the coach what he wants... Now... I don't know... Does Snyder still Trust in Gibbs?


you know this because?


I mean the only constant in all the reports about Snyder wanting to trade.. is that he WENT to Gibbs for the okay.. ie Gibbs has the final say in Football operation matters.

Just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't change the facts :laugh:

[skins4eva]

The fact that Vinny pals around with Snyder should tell us all that Snyder is heavily involved with all football related operations--he does not merely set the budget and sign the checks.

What undermines Art's point is the fact that Vinny is with Snyder, working on things with Snyder, then going to Gibbs. Shouldn't it be Gibbs and Vinny working together and then going to Snyder to ok the financials???

At the end of the day, one of the many problems with this franchise is the lack of internal continuity. There really isn't much in the way of accountability from the FO or the ownership. I don't think the FO structure is nearly as clear as Art says it is. I happen to think it's a jumbled mess. When I see us trading 3rd round picks for Duckett (in the last yr of his contract); numerous picks for rookies who can't even get on the field, and for locker-room cancers/underperformers (Lloyd), I know it's a mess. There's obviously a disconect between what's going on at Redskins park, and what we're being told by Vinny in an extremeskins chat.

[pjfootballer]

...Charles...

:silly: Beat ya to it!! See post #75 on page 3!!!

[TheLongshot]

The fact that Vinny pals around with Snyder should tell us all that Snyder is heavily involved with all football related operations--he does not merely set the budget and sign the checks.

Could it be just that Vinny and Danny are good friends and like to hang around with each other? I mean, their relationship is older than the relationship with Gibbs, so those guys hanging around each other shouldn't be that much of a shock, or a sign that they are undermining Gibbs' authority.


There really isn't much in the way of accountability from the FO or the ownership.

Funny, I saw Gibbs taking a lot of the heat for last season on both the coaching side and the FO side. I guess the only accountability people want to see is the one where people get fired. But, people falling on their swords don't nessicarily make a team better. Organizations become stronger when they work out there problems internally, rather than with turnover. Turnover is really the last resort.

Jason

[U C S D SkinsFan]

If you're going to make trade, please throw Vinny in the deal!:toilet:

:laugh: :laugh: i love it!

[bubba9497]

What undermines Art's point is the fact that Vinny is with Snyder, working on things with Snyder, then going to Gibbs


key phrase then going to Gibbs


BTW, Vinny works with Gibbs, and reports directly to Gibbs says so himself all the time on Redskin Lunch.

people at Redskin Parks, media personalities, local and national writers all confirm Gibbs is running the show... even guys like Lenny P who love to trash Snyder, says Gibbs is in charge

this is a no brainier

[U C S D SkinsFan]

Thanks for this article bubba, i trust in Gibbs to make the right choice...sort of

[Siven]

At this point, I'm growing somewhat tired of people being idiots. Every report in this developing story states the same thing. Joe Gibbs has to decide what the team will do and when he does, should it be something the team wishes to do, an official call will be made to begin official negotiations. The fact that this is the case is not defending Snyder. It's not kissing up to anyone.

It's reading and understanding.

How many of you utter morons out there can read the language, SEE, directly the chain of command in such instances, and decide, despite the facts, which are overwhelming already, and, yes, Madd, have been provided repeatedly in direct comment to you and through the parties involved, that something else is happening.

The bottom line is nothing has happened in this story yet. The entire reporting on it is Rosenhaus saying the Bears are hot to do Briggs and No. 31 for No. 6 and the Bears are hoping for a call and, apparently, Snyder saying Briggs is a player the Skins would obviously be interest in and they're waiting on the Bears for a call.

I've no clue whether a deal will be made or not. I merely know at this point none has been offered. At this point there's nothing to defend. If the point comes where something is to defend, I'll probably be a little curious as to why this was a necessary move, and, hope, for Gibbs' sake as the decision maker, that it works out well.

Why are you being so aggressive? there is no need for that, we are all Redskin fans and we are all entitled to our own opinions, right OR wrong. It's the offseason and people get restless before the draft. No need for calling your fellow Skins' fans idiots and morons.

[Beer is Food]

you know this because?





I mean the only constant in all the reports about Snyder wanting to trade.. is that he WENT to Gibbs for the okay.. ie Gibbs has the final say in Football operation matters.



Just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't change the facts

Bubba- I mean no disrespect to Jumbo, but I think you need to read between the lines. If your boss comes up to you and says, I've worked on this contract to buy widgets, all the numbers are worked out, and I've released a press statement saying that we we are looking to buy these widgets. But, as you know- you make the decision. Is that really a decision? If Gibbs, says no, he is publicly calling his employer an idiot. I hope Gibbs sticks to his guns and Snyder is big enough to take the shot. You tell me- who is really pressuring this decision?

[MRMADD]

you know this because?


I mean the only constant in all the reports about Snyder wanting to trade.. is that he WENT to Gibbs for the okay.. ie Gibbs has the final say in Football operation matters.

Just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't change the facts :laugh:

I want to introduce you to a latin phrase: non sequitur. It means, "it does not follow."

Here are three statements, two of which you believe are true (A & C) and one of which (B) has been reported in the media:

A. Dan Snyder is not involved in football decision making. He just sets budgets and negotiates contracts.
B. Dan Snyder is talking to agents about trading picks, and Gibbs has told the media that he and Snyder make football decision together.
C. Joe Gibbs has the ultimate decision-making authority and can veto Snyder's ideas.

Now, A and B are mutually exclusive. So if the reports are true (whether or not the deal goes through), A is dead. Snyder is "involved." You and Art may not be willing to admit it, but that's simply indisputably true. So you -- without admitting it -- shift your position to C.

But here's the problem with C: you have no evidence to support it. None. You think by repeating it often enough, you'll make it true, but you have no evidence.

You can't cite one single instance where Gibbs vetoed a Snyder decision. And you do see plenty of instances where the evidence indicates that Gibbs doesn't support Snyder's decisions (although you have to infer this, because Gibbs would never come out and say it). The Duckett trade is one such instance -- Gibbs never used the player. It seems unlikely that he was the one so desperate to get him. And both Archuleta and Lloyd, who were vastly overvalued by whoever decided to get them, both ended up on Gibbs' bench. We know Gibbs has UNDYING loyalty to the players he gets (think Brunell, or even John Riggins). But these guys? He barely spoke to them.

I've challenged Art to provide some evidence, however flimsy, to support your unsupportable position. He's failed. Can you do it? Can you cite one single instance that proves that Gibbs has final authority?

[Beer is Food]

[QUOTE=MRMADD]I want to introduce you to a latin phrase: non sequitur. It means, "it does not follow."



Here are three statements, two of which you believe are true (A & C) and one of which (B) has been reported in the media:



A. Dan Snyder is not involved in football decision making. He just sets budgets and negotiates contracts.

B. Dan Snyder is talking to agents about trading picks, and Gibbs has told the media that he and Snyder make football decision together.

C. Joe Gibbs has the ultimate decision-making authority and can veto Snyder's ideas.



Now, A and B are mutually exclusive. So if the reports are true (whether or not the deal goes through), A is dead. Snyder is "involved." You and Art may not be willing to admit it, but that's simply indisputably true. So you -- without admitting it -- shift your position to C.


QUOTE]

I think you've brained my damage. I agree with you, but PLEASE no Ven diagrams.

[TheLongshot]

But here's the problem with C: you have no evidence to support it. None. You think by repeating it often enough, you'll make it true, but you have no evidence.

I can repeat the same statement to you: You have no evidence that Snyder is making football decisions. Even with the whole Briggs thing, he isn't making decisions, only talking about potential options.


You can't cite one single instance where Gibbs vetoed a Snyder decision.

Nor can you site any instance where Snyder vetoed Gibbs.


And you do see plenty of instances where the evidence indicates that Gibbs doesn't support Snyder's decisions (although you have to infer this, because Gibbs would never come out and say it). The Duckett trade is one such instance -- Gibbs never used the player. It seems unlikely that he was the one so desperate to get him. And both Archuleta and Lloyd, who were vastly overvalued by whoever decided to get them, both ended up on Gibbs' bench. We know Gibbs has UNDYING loyalty to the players he gets (think Brunell, or even John Riggins). But these guys? He barely spoke to them.

Wow, this is your "evidence"?

Some stuff from the La Canfora article:


One coach said he liked Lloyd's route-running and speed. And all the coaches marveled at his ability to make highlight-reel catches. The conversation ended with the coaches grading Lloyd ahead of Jurevicius and Bryant.


Gibbs wanted a burner, more of a straight-ahead deep threat to complement Santana Moss. The decision was made to get Lloyd. Snyder and Schaffer then took over the financial dealings.


Quarterbacks coach Bill Lazor and tight ends coach Rennie Simmons -- both had worked in Atlanta's organization -- strongly endorsed Duckett. ... Saunders thought Duckett would be a nice complement to the other backs and was enthused about him, sources said.

So, where in there were these choices made by Snyder?

Try again.

Jason

[Art]

Why are you being so aggressive? there is no need for that, we are all Redskin fans and we are all entitled to our own opinions, right OR wrong. It's the offseason and people get restless before the draft. No need for calling your fellow Skins' fans idiots and morons.

No one's entitled to be wrong.

When someone blatantly ignores facts to spread an agenda of stupidity the entitlement is to slow the spread of idiocy before it infects others.

[conbob54]

I think the FO has the "draft the best player available in the draft" saying mixed up with free agency

[Jumbo]

No one's entitled to be wrong.

When someone blatantly ignores facts to spread an agenda of stupidity the entitlement is to slow the spread of idiocy before it infects others.


If the outbreak is too extensive too rapidly with no reversible treatment available, the protocol demands quarantine :D

[illone]

One funny sidebar in all of this is that a majority of the posters here are currently in an employee status, and will never own a business of thier own, or graduate business school, or even become an errand boy for an organization that runs errands for the Washington Redskins, yet they somehow know the inner workings of the Team via a third party reporter who doesn't even speak to Snyder.

Kinda funny if you think about it.

:laugh:

[Sarge]

you know this because?


I mean the only constant in all the reports about Snyder wanting to trade.. is that he WENT to Gibbs for the okay.. ie Gibbs has the final say in Football operation matters.

Just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't change the facts :laugh:

I can see this conversation

the danny: Joe, look. This guy is all new and shiney and does neato torpedo things. He's a stud! He was in the Pro Bowl too! He must be good! Mini me said he'd be good too!

Gibbs: Sir, we don't need anymore linebackers. We just traded up to get a guy that is on the verge of starting this year. Right now our D-line gets beaten like a bunch of syphlic French whores. In other words sir, our linebackers now have to act like D-linemen because our D-linemen blow. We can fix that in the draft, but only if we have our number 6

the danny: But Joe, he's really neato, and he loves to sign autographs! I can get him for the rock bottom price of only 50 Billion for the first year! Joe, I really want this guy. Hell, I already told Drew I'd do this and you'd be OK with it. It'll make me look bad again if I have to go back and say the coach said "No"

Gibbs: Look sir, remember the sucky D-line I was telling you about? With the number 6 pick, we can trade down and get multiple picks for linemen, that way if one of the D-line gets hurt again like last year, we'll have a backup that won't give up 8 yards a carry to the other teams running back. And Campbell won't have to run for his life if we have to put backup O-linemen on the line

the danny: But those lineman guys aren't as cool as, what was his name again Mini-Me?

Cerrato: Briggs sir. I have his complete dosssier right here if you need it!

the danny: No Mini-Me,thank you. Go get me a Coke.

Now Joe, O-linemen just aren't as cool as a really, really flashy badass linebacker! And I've already started having jerseys made with his name on it. Think of how much you'll displease your boss if he has to cancel that multi-million dollar order.

Gibbs :Sir, I'm trying to get a football team together here. That's what you wanted me to do, right? I'm not worried about jerseys and autographs, I'm worried abot not taking another pasting again this year

the danny: But Joe, if we don't sell jerseys, I can't make the payroll. The payroll includes the check that goes to your bank Joe. And I reeeeeeally want this guy. Mini-Me, this Coke is warm

Cerrato: I'll take it back right away sir!

the danny, C'mon Joe, I have a feeling about this! This is our ticket to the Super Bowl! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon!

Gibbs: OK Mr Snyder

the danny: Good boy Joe. I knew you'd see it your way. Now make sure YOU make this announcement, because you know the media will make fun of me and my height again if they even THINK I asked for this guy

Gibbs: Yes sir

[KingGibbs]

from a Scout.com article on the Bears-Skins maybe trade



http://bears.scout.com/2/630199.html?refid=400&CMP=OTC-K9B140813162&ATT=5

Jay Glazer FOX



http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6613558?print=true


What I get out of this is that Danny and Vinny are salivating because they haven't made the annual "big splash" that they are accustomed to. They are scratching that itch so hard they're skin is about to break. Even if they have to get Joe's "approval" it doesn't negate the fact that they initiated this trade idea and still want to play fantasy football with the 'skins.

[Beer is Food]

I can see this conversation



the danny: Joe, look. This guy is all new and shiney and does neato torpedo things. He's a stud! He was in the Pro Bowl too! He must be good! Mini me said he'd be good too!



Gibbs: Sir, we don't need anymore linebackers. We just traded up to get a guy that is on the verge of starting this year. Right now our D-line gets beaten like a bunch of syphlic French whores. In other words sir, our linebackers now have to act like D-linemen because our D-linemen blow. We can fix that in the draft, but only if we have our number 6



the danny: But Joe, he's really neato, and he loves to sign autographs! I can get him for the rock bottom price of only 50 Billion for the first year! Joe, I really want this guy. Hell, I already told Drew I'd do this and you'd be OK with it. It'll make me look bad again if I have to go back and say the coach said "No"



Gibbs: Look sir, remember the sucky D-line I was telling you about? With the number 6 pick, we can trade down and get multiple picks for linemen, that way if one of the D-line gets hurt again like last year, we'll have a backup that won't give up 8 yards a carry to the other teams running back. And Campbell won't have to run for his life if we have to put backup O-linemen on the line



the danny: But those lineman guys aren't as cool as, what was his name again Mini-Me?



Cerrato: Briggs sir. I have his complete dosssier right here if you need it!



the danny: No Mini-Me,thank you. Go get me a Coke.



Now Joe, O-linemen just aren't as cool as a really, really flashy badass linebacker! And I've already started having jerseys made with his name on it. Think of how much you'll displease your boss if he has to cancel that multi-million dollar order.



Gibbs :Sir, I'm trying to get a football team together here. That's what you wanted me to do, right? I'm not worried about jerseys and autographs, I'm worried abot not taking another pasting again this year



the danny: But Joe, if we don't sell jerseys, I can't make the payroll. The payroll includes the check that goes to your bank Joe. And I reeeeeeally want this guy. Mini-Me, this Coke is warm



Cerrato: I'll take it back right away sir!



the danny, C'mon Joe, I have a feeling about this! This is our ticket to the Super Bowl! C'mon, c'mon, c'mon!



Gibbs: OK Mr Snyder



the danny: Good boy Joe. I knew you'd see it your way. Now make sure YOU make this announcement, because you know the media will make fun of me and my height again if they even THINK I asked for this guy



Gibbs: Yes sir

Time machine to 2008...... Redskins Defense ranked 28th, 6&10 record.

King Snyder: Minnie me- go fetch me my platform slippers and a Tab- and GET that loser Gibbs in here.

Minnie Me- will do, but would you like me to finish your full release massage.

King Snyder: That won't be necessary my vertically challenged friend, but I need you to be here when I fire Gibbs...You know how I like to feel taller when I make important decisions.

Gibbs: Mr. Snyder you wanted to see me.

King Snyder: Yes, I'm sorry Joe but I gave you total control and your poor personell decisions have cost us games. I'm sorry the media and fans are demanding change. So, I'm going to have trust Minnie Me's decision to let you go. Good Bye.

Minnie Me: Yea- what he said !

Joe Gibbs: You're saying you're not firing me- Cerrato is.

King Snyder: Yup- Minnie Me is now our new General Manager and is control of all Football Operations- He makes the decisions now.

Minnie Me: Gulp!

[graniteFallsNCskins]

Errr........shouldn't GW be invlolved in this decision somehow as well?

Have we not learned enough already?Let him invent some packages and find a new player to blame:2cents:

Gibbs is the real deal he has 3 trophies to show for it,it's time to take back control.

[Sarge]

Time machine to 2008...... Redskins Defense ranked 28th, 6&10 record.

King Snyder: Minnie me- go fetch me my platform slippers and a Tab- and GET that loser Gibbs in here.

Minnie Me- will do, but would you like me to finish your full release massage.

King Snyder: That won't be necessary my vertically challenged friend, but I need you to be here when I fire Gibbs...You know how I like to feel taller when I make important decisions.

Gibbs: Mr. Snyder you wanted to see me.

King Snyder: Yes, I'm sorry Joe but I gave you total control and your poor personell decisions have cost us games. I'm sorry the media and fans are demanding change. So, I'm going to have trust Minnie Me's decision to let you go. Good Bye.

Minnie Me: Yea- what he said !

Joe Gibbs: You're saying you're not firing me- Cerrato is.

King Snyder: Yup- Minnie Me is now our new General Manager and is control of all Football Operations- He makes the decisions now.

Minnie Me: Gulp!


I like that one better than mine :laugh: :cheers:

[luciusism]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/31/AR2006123101079_pf.html
"Eventually it's going to come down to Dan and me," Gibbs said of the decision-making process.




http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20040108-111908-9074r.htm
In a folksy, anecdote-laced speech, Gibbs revealed his nervous excitement and repeatedly paid homage to the fans who felt such a part of the team during his 12 seasons as coach. He also explained his reasons for returning to the NFL, his concerns about competing in a new era and a much-improved NFC East, and his confidence that he can mesh his decision-making with that of Mr. Snyder and vice president of football operations Vinny Cerrato.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/03/23/AR2005032300634.html
Who, really, is running the team? Why does Coles think he's been dealt dirty? Did Gibbs truly understand the salary cap ramifications of his stay-or-go statement--that releasing a player like Coles would mean a huge cap hit and hobble the team's ability to sign players in the offseason? Is Gibbs indeed the last word in the organization and the chief decision maker? Why did Coles apparently meet with Snyder and vice president Vinny Cerrato late in the season to request a trade?



I think the above quotes plus the years of Snyder's involvement in decision making can make one confused about the Redskins front-office decision making process.

Art, thanks for trying to educate us about this, but calling fellow Extremeskins fans like myself, "morons" makes you look churlish. As a member for some years having come over from HailRedskins, I have to say that I'm very disappointed that Extremeskins have devolved to this.




Dan's being charged with BEING in charge and making football decisions. As the owner, he does have to set the budget. Can't really avoid that. Fortunately, he sets the best budget in the league, so we're pleased with that. But, lucius, thanks for being one of the utter morons who can't read the language and follow the conversation.

[TheLongshot]

Why don't you post the whole quote?


"Eventually it's going to come down to Dan and me," Gibbs said of the decision-making process.

Gibbs wanted a burner, more of a straight-ahead deep threat to complement Santana Moss. The decision was made to get Lloyd. Snyder and Schaffer then took over the financial dealings.

Isn't this exactly what Art said were the roles?

Jason

[TK]

What I get out of this is that Danny and Vinny are salivating because they haven't made the annual "big splash" that they are accustomed to.
Do you really follow this team? The reason I ask is that anyone who does, knows that we tend to make a 'big splash' every other year. Meaning bi-annually. Not annually.

Last year we acquired/re-signed the following in the beginning of Free Agency before the Draft:
OL Tyson Walter
OL Mike Pucillo
DT Cedric Killings
QB Todd Collins
DE Andre Carter
LB Khary Campbell
S Adam Archuleta
WR Antwaan Randle El
TE Christian Fauria
WR Brandon Lloyd

Four of the above could be considered a 'big splash'. Lloyd, ARE, Arch, & Carter. Arrington buying his contract very well have been a bigger 'splash' then any of the others.

This year we've acquired/re-signed the following in the beginning of Free Agency before the Draft:
S Omar Stoutmire
OL Todd Wade
DT Ryan Boschetti
OL Ross Tucker
CB Fred Smoot
LB London Fletcher
S Vernon Fox
P Derrick Frost - Tendered a RFA contract offer

None of which would be considered a 'big splash' by anyone that seriously follows the team. Sure casual & maybe some more hardcore fans think bringing Smoooooot back home is 'big', but it really isn't.

[Art]

I think the above quotes plus the years of Snyder's involvement in decision making can make one confused about the Redskins front-office decision making process.

Art, thanks for trying to educate us about this, but calling fellow Extremeskins fans like myself, "morons" makes you look churlish. As a member for some years having come over from HailRedskins, I have to say that I'm very disappointed that Extremeskins have devolved to this.

The devolution of ES is when people come here, use a few words from an article that clearly demonstrates they have difficulty with the English language, then get angry when someone points out how dumb their being. Let me help you boys out who can't seem to get what Gibbs was talking about in the article YOU mentioned.


As team president, Gibbs repeatedly has said he is to blame for the team's struggles. "It's not personnel, it's not scouting, it's not any of that. It's me," he said in an interview yesterday. "I haven't done a good enough job of coaching. Overall, it's me. People ought to be taking shots at me. Hang it on me."

This is important because, this is actually very much right on. But, as to personnel, the CONTEXT of the statement Gibbs made was written about by the reporter here:


The Redskins use a unique front-office structure with a scouting arm led by vice president of football operations Vinny Cerrato and his staff evaluating players, Gibbs and the coaches grading the scouted players and Snyder determining the budget. Director of football administration Eric Schaffer handles the bulk of negotiations although, unlike most other NFL owners, Snyder interacts with agents directly at key moments of the process, according to numerous agents. The group eschews the draft and has shown a preference for building through trades and free agency.

There's actually nothing unique about our structure, which is EXACTLY what it is in New England, Philly and many other places. Even ownership negotiation is done in some cities as Jason mentions, but, THIS is the PRECISE structure of the front office that has been explained time and time again. This is exactly what Snyder does. Sets the budget, approves the budget and therefore, when Gibbs says it comes down to he and Dan, he's saying what we all know. When Gibbs wants to spend the owner's money, the owner has to say, "Sure coach."

The article you cite walks us through a typical signing, and, again, states PRECISELY how it works, as we've had on this site from the people involved:


The process for evaluating Lloyd, as with all Redskins acquisitions, began with Cerrato and his staff preparing reports on possible available wide receivers, considered a weak group. Those reports were distributed to coaches along with game film for each to study. The assistant coaches, Cerrato and Gibbs then assigned a grade to each player. Some coaches based their grades only on what they saw on film; others called friends around the league to get their input.

The rankings were discussed at meetings that usually began with Cerrato or Louis Riddick, director of pro personnel, giving a presentation on the players. No. 1 on everyone's list was Indianapolis's Reggie Wayne, but he re-signed quickly with the Colts. Terrell Owens was dismissed for being too volatile. Saunders made it clear he wanted Randle El in the same manner that Gregg Williams, the assistant head coach-defense, had Archuleta and defensive coordinator Greg Blache wanted Carter.

Saunders's vote for Randle El vaulted him to the top of the list of players to be pursued.

Note, the name "Snyder" is not there, right? Here he comes and remember, context is your friend:


With the available players ranked, Gibbs, Cerrato and Snyder met.

"Eventually it's going to come down to Dan and me," Gibbs said of the decision-making process.

Gibbs wanted a burner, more of a straight-ahead deep threat to complement Santana Moss. The decision was made to get Lloyd. Snyder and Schaffer then took over the financial dealings.

With the players ranked by the people responsible, Gibbs went in and pitched what he wanted, and got approval from the man who pays the bills to do it. In many cities, the owner doesn't have to give approval to spend his money, because he sets a budget and does nothing else. Here, Snyder's budget is dynamic and Gibbs consistently hits him for more money that Snyder always provides. This is the precise structure, perfectly captured, as it's been here before.

That you fail to grasp the meaning is what's wrong here.

As for the other stuff, especially the Coles situation, the situation there was one of Snyder's greater moments. Snyder was a key reason we got Coles. Coles was productive for us, though he got hurt. From a reputation and ego standpoint, Snyder could have held firm and refused to allocate the budget dollars to allow Gibbs to swallow his dead hit. Instead, the "meeting" with Snyder was the famous, "You'll do as you're told, or I'll buy you a big-screen television because that's the closest you'll get to the field next year." In one conversation with Coles, Snyder removed all the past feeling that playes could charm him and be star buddies with him and safe no matter the coach.

Coles tested that, and was reluctant to play ball with the team to get his release/trade. And he felt he could play the "star buddy" card as others have done. What he found was an owner who told him that what Gibbs wanted was going to happen and from what I understand, THAT incident, more than anything else, is how Coles was willing to give up money. He knew he would be iced here.

Snyder was far more involved in the decision making process in the past where he served as a tiebreaker between Spurrier and Cerrato. Under Gibbs, he's been the money man, and guy responsible for making the wishes of Gibbs happen. Which is why Gibbs has openly said Snyder has provided him everything he's asked for and the rest is on him.

Feel free to believe him.

[illone]

Art,

Don't you get tired of typing the same thing over and over?

:laugh:

I think it's pretty much a lost cause, dude. People believe what they want to believe.

[bubba9497]

People believe what they want to believe.


screw facts and logic


the easter bunny is REAL! :redpunch:

[illone]

screw facts and logic


the easter bunny is REAL! :redpunch:


The easter bunny IS real.

Cuz I said so.

[Art]

Art,

Don't you get tired of typing the same thing over and over?

:laugh:

I think it's pretty much a lost cause, dude. People believe what they want to believe.

No, not really, because the people who don't get it keep typing the same thing over and over, so it's easy to combat them with, for them, a bitter dose of reality. BTW, I just read that LaCanfora article again, and if you subtract all the words that don't make this true, Gibbs said, "Overall, people ought to hang on young guys." It's there, if you look hard enough.

[KingGibbs]

Do you really follow this team? The reason I ask is that anyone who does, knows that we tend to make a 'big splash' every other year. Meaning bi-annually. Not annually.

Last year we acquired/re-signed the following in the beginning of Free Agency before the Draft:
OL Tyson Walter
OL Mike Pucillo
DT Cedric Killings
QB Todd Collins
DE Andre Carter
LB Khary Campbell
S Adam Archuleta
WR Antwaan Randle El
TE Christian Fauria
WR Brandon Lloyd

Four of the above could be considered a 'big splash'. Lloyd, ARE, Arch, & Carter. Arrington buying his contract very well have been a bigger 'splash' then any of the others.

This year we've acquired/re-signed the following in the beginning of Free Agency before the Draft:
S Omar Stoutmire
OL Todd Wade
DT Ryan Boschetti
OL Ross Tucker
CB Fred Smoot
LB London Fletcher
S Vernon Fox
P Derrick Frost - Tendered a RFA contract offer

None of which would be considered a 'big splash' by anyone that seriously follows the team. Sure casual & maybe some more hardcore fans think bringing Smoooooot back home is 'big', but it really isn't.

You need to stick to your popcorn emoticon pal. Do you not "follow this team?" Did you not see the contracts they gave the four you deemed a "big splash" last year. Do you not realize that they're not done yet this offseason? If any of these trade proposals/rumors come to fruition then that would make yet another "big splash."

Not to mention your definition of "big splash" is a bit different than most. Not only do we sign these FA's to these big contracts, but let's not forget the compensation we give up to acquire some of these players and draft picks.

Now go back to eating your popcorn. I topped it with some of my "butter" for you. I'm sure you'll love it.

[paul55]

Dangit, listen to Art he is making sense.

Don't take rumors and reporters opinions and flip out. Wait for something to really happen.

The best thing about this offseason is that NOBODY knows what the Skins are going to do draft day.

[TK]

You need to stick to your popcorn emoticon pal. Do you not "follow this team?" Did you not see the contracts they gave the four you deemed a "big splash" last year. Do you not realize that they're not done yet this offseason? If any of these trade proposals/rumors come to fruition then that would make yet another "big splash."

Not to mention your definition is "big splash" is a bit different than most. Not only do we sign these FA's to these big contracts, but let's not forget the compensation we give up to acquire some of these players and draft picks.

Now go back to eating your popcorn. I topped it with some of my "butter" for you. I'm sure you'll love it.
You realise those contracts will be restructured within three years, right? Or if the player doesn't work out, like Arch, they'll be gone. And you also realise that his contract was redone before we jettisoned him, correct? Maybe if you'd quit buttering your own popcorn, you'd regain your eyesight & that'd make it easier for you to follow things.

[KingGibbs]

Dangit, listen to Art he is making sense.

Don't take rumors and reporters opinions and flip out. Wait for something to really happen.

The best thing about this offseason is that NOBODY knows what the Skins are going to do draft day.

I've liked the signing of Fletcher because the defense lacked leadership last year and he brings that to the table along with his tackles. The Smoot acquisition doesn't excite me that much because I think he is vastly over-rated on here. But, he does bring emotion to this defense, again something the defense lacked last year.

I have liked the moves that we have made thus far, but the recent history and penchant for that headline grabbing trade has me a bit skeptical. Let's hope we continue the current course and choose wisely.

[fansince62]

You realise those contracts will be restructured within three years, right? Or if the player doesn't work out, like Arch, they'll be gone. And you also realise that his contract was redone before we jettisoned him, correct? Maybe if you'd quit buttering your own popcorn, you'd regain your eyesight & that'd make it easier for you to follow things.

all at a cost my friend.

[KingGibbs]

You realise those contracts will be restructured within three years, right? Or if the player doesn't work out, like Arch, they'll be gone. And you also realise that his contract was redone before we jettisoned him, correct? Maybe if you'd quit buttering your own popcorn, you'd regain your eyesight & that'd make it easier for you to follow things.

or maybe that's why you continue to eat that popcorn because you like my added flavor which explains your weight gain due to the added protein in your popcorn.

Restructured contracts? That's your argument? What about the compensation given by us to obtain players like Lloyd, Duckett and McIntosh
only to see them either not perform up to par (Lloyd) or not even see the field (McIntosh and Duckett).

Imagine how much more of a bargaining chip or depth we'd have if we kept those picks.

[TheLongshot]

I have liked the moves that we have made thus far, but the recent history and penchant for that headline grabbing trade has me a bit skeptical. Let's hope we continue the current course and choose wisely.

Most trades, by their nature, are headline grabbing.

But, other than the Duckett trade (which was certainly not made to grab headlines), can you argue that the trades weren't made to address a need that we had on this team?

While certainly you can argue about the price of such deals, but for the most part they have met clear needs on this team.

Jason

[TK]

all at a cost my friend.
Cost? Al are you saying you pay Pee Wee Herman there to butter your popcorn?

[KingGibbs]

Most trades, by their nature, are headline grabbing.

But, other than the Duckett trade (which was certainly not made to grab headlines), can you argue that the trades weren't made to address a need that we had on this team?

While certainly you can argue about the price of such deals, but for the most part they have met clear needs on this team.

Jason

I'll agree that they are to address areas of need, but at the cost of multiple picks? If we had a true GM and better scouting department we could've possibly found players to fill those needs w/out the cost of those draft picks and those players could certainly put out the same production as those aforementioned players and possibly even be more productive.

[KingGibbs]

Cost? Al are you saying you pay Pee Wee Herman there to butter your popcorn?

That's original.

[Beer is Food]

Mr. Madd is right on. The chain of events reflects an increase in Snyder's role in the operational decision making process. Atleast, He has more of a role than the franchise lets on. Now, I really question whether Gibbs really demoted himself as offensive coordinator. Now, as a die hard fan, I can legitimitly question whether the Coach is really the coach? I've given Snyder the benefit of the doubt in the past, and supported him because he's willing to open that check book to give the coach what he wants... Now... I don't know... Does Snyder still Trust in Gibbs?


you know this because?


I mean the only constant in all the reports about Snyder wanting to trade.. is that he WENT to Gibbs for the okay.. ie Gibbs has the final say in Football operation matters.

Just because some don't want to believe it, doesn't change the facts


Bubba- I mean no disrespect to Jumbo, but I think you need to read between the lines. If your boss comes up to you and says, I've worked on this contract to buy widgets, all the numbers are worked out, and I've released a press statement saying that we we are looking to buy these widgets. But, as you know- you make the decision. Is that really a decision? If Gibbs, says no, he is publicly calling his employer an idiot. I hope Gibbs sticks to his guns and Snyder is big enough to take the shot. You tell me- who is really pressuring this decision?


screw facts and logic


the easter bunny is REAL!

How can you not see that there is at minimum grey area in the Redskins decision making process. As the chain of events unfolded-- If your boss comes up to you and says, I've worked on this contract to buy widgets, all the numbers are worked out, and I've released a press statement saying that we we are looking to buy these widgets. But, as you know- you make the decision. Is that really a decision? If Gibbs, says no, he is publicly calling his employer an idiot. I hope Gibbs sticks to his guns and Snyder is big enough to take the shot.

You tell me- who is really pressuring this decision? Gibbs does have the final yes or no, but I don't think the Easter Bunny would say it's all that cut and dry...

Do you still think there is no facts or logic with this perspective?

[TheLongshot]

How can you not see that there is at minimum grey area in the Redskins decision making process. As the chain of events unfolded-- If your boss comes up to you and says, I've worked on this contract to buy widgets, all the numbers are worked out, and I've released a press statement saying that we we are looking to buy these widgets. But, as you know- you make the decision. Is that really a decision? If Gibbs, says no, he is publicly calling his employer an idiot. I hope Gibbs sticks to his guns and Snyder is big enough to take the shot.

If Snyder had talked to the Bears and worked out a trade, and/or worked out contract numbers with Briggs, then maybe your scenario would have some validity. None of those things happened, tho.

Certainly, talking to the press doesn't seem smart, but it is nothing that the Skins can't recover from. Certainly, we aren't committed to trading for Briggs in any way.

Jason

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Maybe the problem everyone is having with this is that it is impossible to imagine a scenario where an agent approaches, say, Bisciotti about a deal and receives more than a "Go talk to Ozzie." The fact that an agent would approach Snyder first...and actually apparently get some traction...is the telling thing in all of this, in my view.

I have little (some but little) doubt that Gibbs has the ultimate say in who goes on the roster. But it seems like Danny is a gatekeeper to some degree.

[Beer is Food]

If Snyder had talked to the Bears and worked out a trade, and/or worked out contract numbers with Briggs, then maybe your scenario would have some validity. None of those things happened, tho.


http://blog.redskinsgames.com/

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/6613558?print=true

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2814052

Read the above three articles. At the very least, Snyder worked out the trade value (Swapping 1st rounders) and released the news to the press prior to even having a conversation with Gibbs. It also sounds to me like Snyder and the agent worked out a rough framework for the Briggs contract. I don't think the sequence of events is really in question... even if you don't buy Snyder working out the rough financial parameters of the Briggs contract, there is no question he worked out the trade and released it the press prior to consulting Gibbs.

(This is an Edit) I mis-read your post on the first go. When Snyder released the offer to the press, he implicitly made the offer to the Bears. The fact that Snyder released the information and was the source- made the offer credible even though the offer was made to the Bears through the press.

[Beer is Food]

Maybe the problem everyone is having with this is that it is impossible to imagine a scenario where an agent approaches, say, Bisciotti about a deal and receives more than a "Go talk to Ozzie." The fact that an agent would approach Snyder first...and actually apparently get some traction...is the telling thing in all of this, in my view.



I have little (some but little) doubt that Gibbs has the ultimate say in who goes on the roster. But it seems like Danny is a gatekeeper to some degree.

Good Point... But, does Gibbs really have the final say? If we publicly read about these kind of influences on Gibbs decision making- who knows what really happens behind closed doors?

[drowland]

Maybe the problem everyone is having with this is that it is impossible to imagine a scenario where an agent approaches, say, Bisciotti about a deal and receives more than a "Go talk to Ozzie." The fact that an agent would approach Snyder first...and actually apparently get some traction...is the telling thing in all of this, in my view.

I have little (some but little) doubt that Gibbs has the ultimate say in who goes on the roster. But it seems like Danny is a gatekeeper to some degree.


This is the same way I feel. I have no doubt Gibbs has final say on all personnel/football decisions. However, that doesn't mean he's not influenced by those working around him. Anyone in his role has advisors. And that's my problem with how things are setup. I don't think Gibbs has the right people advising him on decisions. I'm sure he gets a lot of input from Williams and Saunders, but you can't rely souly on coaches to make player moves. He needs a competent personnel guy to work with him. Someone who's more experienced in building a team from the ground up and who's not afraid to tell Gibbs "that's a bad idea." I've seen enough of Vinny over the years to know he's NOT that guy.

[TheLongshot]

This is the same way I feel. I have no doubt Gibbs has final say on all personnel/football decisions. However, that doesn't mean he's not influenced by those working around him. Anyone in his role has advisors. And that's my problem with how things are setup. I don't think Gibbs has the right people advising him on decisions. I'm sure he gets a lot of input from Williams and Saunders, but you can't rely souly on coaches to make player moves. He needs a competent personnel guy to work with him. Someone who's more experienced in building a team from the ground up and who's not afraid to tell Gibbs "that's a bad idea." I've seen enough of Vinny over the years to know he's NOT the guy.

There are certainly plenty of people in the organization who can say no to Gibbs. Reading Jason's article, there is plenty of coaches telling Gibbs no on many players. And, it looks like Gibbs listens to those opinions. At the end of the day, tho, it is Gibbs who makes the final decision. It was what he was hired to do.

Vinny's job is to collect scouting reports and give grades to players, which is where his opinion is expressed. Vinny also works for Gibbs. So, while Vinny can express an opinion, it doesn't mean that he has the power to override him. That would be true no matter who had Vinny's title.

What I read in your opinion is that you don't trust Gibbs to make the right decisions in personnel moves, that you'd rather have someone else be the architect of this team. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally, I find it funny because a lot of people have been crying for a football person to be running the team on the field since Snyder took over. Thing is, we have one now, but that doesn't stop the crying.

Jason

[monkforhall]

[QUOTE=Beer is Food]Good Point... But, does Gibbs really have the final say? If we publicly read about these kind of influences on Gibbs decision making- who knows what really happens behind closed doors?[/QUOTE

This FO is very strange, in everything they do. Things they say are not always true. Just because the FO says Joe makes the final decision, does not make it true. I'm sure Danny can be pretty persuasive if he wants a guy. If Snyder is taking deals to Gibbs to sign off on, he is definitely involved, much more then we would like. Whoever traded for Duckett should get his trade a player priviliges taken away for 1 week.

[drowland]

There are certainly plenty of people in the organization who can say no to Gibbs. Reading Jason's article, there is plenty of coaches telling Gibbs no on many players. And, it looks like Gibbs listens to those opinions. At the end of the day, tho, it is Gibbs who makes the final decision. It was what he was hired to do.

Vinny's job is to collect scouting reports and give grades to players, which is where his opinion is expressed. Vinny also works for Gibbs. So, while Vinny can express an opinion, it doesn't mean that he has the power to override him. That would be true no matter who had Vinny's title.

What I read in your opinion is that you don't trust Gibbs to make the right decisions in personnel moves, that you'd rather have someone else be the architect of this team. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Personally, I find it funny because a lot of people have been crying for a football person to be running the team on the field since Snyder took over. Thing is, we have one now, but that doesn't stop the crying.

Jason

No, I don't think Gibbs is right person to be the architect of this team. But that's what we're stuck with. Bobby Beatherd was the one who assembled the core of a team that won 3 SBs. Gibbs had his input, but he was the coach. That's what he's in the HOF for, coaching.

I've gone over this before with you. The problem with Gibbs running the whole show is the coach in him is too focused on the short-term view. Someone in a GM role has to have short-term and long-term view. I think it's too much for Gibbs to handle at this point in his career. It's hard for anyone to do.

[KingGibbs]

No, I don't think Gibbs is right person to be the architect of this team. Bobby Beathred was the one who assembled the core of a team that won 3 SBs. Gibbs had his input, but he was the coach. That's what he's in the HOF for, coaching.

I've gone over this before with you. The problem with Gibbs running the whole show is the coach in him is too focused on the short-term view. Someone in a GM role has to have short-term and long-term view. I think it's too much for Gibbs to handle at this point in his career. It's hard for anyone to do.

I agree 100%. Another thing that concerns me is his involvement in Nascar. How much is he involved I don't know, but knowing Joe's competitive nature he does have some input. So IMO it's quite a juggling act between his duties with the 'skins and Nascar.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Personally, I find it funny because a lot of people have been crying for a football person to be running the team on the field since Snyder took over. Thing is, we have one now, but that doesn't stop the crying.


Snyder is still half-way there in my view. I want a football person in charge. But I don't want that person to be the coach. I've never liked that set-up in any team in any sport that does not involve Red Auerbach.

And if the coach is going to be the guy...he needs a better braintrust than Cerrato.

[TheLongshot]

I've gone over this before with you. The problem with Gibbs running the whole show is the coach in him is too focused on the short-term view. Someone in a GM role has to have short-term and long-term view. I think it's too much for Gibbs to handle at this point in his career. It's hard for anyone to do.

How many of his moves have been short-term moves?

Most of the trades he has made have been for young guys who are intended to be here for the long haul. Portis, Moss, Cooley, Campbell, Lloyd, were all traded for because the FO thought that they would be good players for the long term. The same goes with signing Washington, Griffin, ARE and Carter.

Are there short-term moves? Sure. I don't think there are any more for us than there are on most teams. Not every move is done of the long-term, particularly since you can't always address the long-term.

Personally, I think he has done a pretty good job overall in selecting players. There aren't many mistakes. What has been more of a problem is keeping players here, but some of that isn't under the control of Gibbs.

The reason why Gibbs was hired in the first place was to get this franchise back on its feet. His coaching is only part of the equasion, the greater job is to direct this franchise back in the right direction. So far, despite the setback last year, I like what he's done for the most part.

Jason

[TheLongshot]

And if the coach is going to be the guy...he needs a better braintrust than Cerrato.

I guess you don't like Saunders and Williams either. They are also a part of the braintrust, and they have a lot of success to back that up.

Jason

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

I guess you don't like Saunders and Williams either. They are also a part of the braintrust, and they have a lot of success to back that up.

Jason

Not in personnel, they don't.

[drowland]

How many of his moves have been short-term moves?

Most of the trades he has made have been for young guys who are intended to be here for the long haul. Portis, Moss, Cooley, Campbell, Lloyd, were all traded for because the FO thought that they would be good players for the long term. The same goes with signing Washington, Griffin, ARE and Carter.

Are there short-term moves? Sure. I don't think there are any more for us than there are on most teams. Not every move is done of the long-term, particularly since you can't always address the long-term.

Personally, I think he has done a pretty good job overall in selecting players. There aren't many mistakes. What has been more of a problem is keeping players here, but some of that isn't under the control of Gibbs.

The reason why Gibbs was hired in the first place was to get this franchise back on its feet. His coaching is only part of the equasion, the greater job is to direct this franchise back in the right direction. So far, despite the setback last year, I like what he's done for the most part.

Jason

The problem, Jason, is a lot of the guys you mention won't be around much longer. If the Skins want to spend on FA, fine, but they have to realize FAs are mostly stop-gaps. Which means you need to start drafting and grooming the next guy soon. That's what good teams do. That's what the Skins have mainly failed to do, other then with the QB position. That's the short-sided view I'm talking about. That's why I hate how the Skins throw away so many draft picks in these trades. You have to have young talent coming in all the time. Not expensive 26 yr old talent, but 21/22 yr old inexpensive talent that's hungry and ready to push the veterans. The Skins fell apart the last time Gibbs left because he left an old team, that had very little young talent.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

How many of his moves have been short-term moves?

Most of the trades he has made have been for young guys who are intended to be here for the long haul. Portis, Moss, Cooley, Campbell, Lloyd, were all traded for because the FO thought that they would be good players for the long term. The same goes with signing Washington, Griffin, ARE and Carter.

Are there short-term moves? Sure. I don't think there are any more for us than there are on most teams. Not every move is done of the long-term, particularly since you can't always address the long-term.

Personally, I think he has done a pretty good job overall in selecting players. There aren't many mistakes. What has been more of a problem is keeping players here, but some of that isn't under the control of Gibbs.

The reason why Gibbs was hired in the first place was to get this franchise back on its feet. His coaching is only part of the equasion, the greater job is to direct this franchise back in the right direction. So far, despite the setback last year, I like what he's done for the most part.

Jason

I wish people would stop citing the same eight or ten players as proof that the team knows what it is doing.

I've made this argument a dozen times and no one disputes it. On paper, from 1 to 22 on the depth chart, the Skins are probably top five in the league in terms of talent. Portis, Moss, Cooley, Washington, Taylor...yes...all very good players. Maybe great players.

However, from 22 to 53, we have arguably the worst talent in the NFL. This is why when we lose Pierson Prioleau, the defense simply collapses, but the Bears can lose Tommie Harris and say, "Eh...we'll be okay."

Depth is the key to pretty much everything in the modern NFL. We have none.

[skins4eva]

I guess you don't like Saunders and Williams either. They are also a part of the braintrust, and they have a lot of success to back that up.

Jason

You mean like recommending we sign Lloyd and Arch? You need to stop citing Lloyd as anything positive--the guy had one of the worst if not the worst season as a number 2 receiver in the history of football. That's how bad he was.

[GSF]

Williams blew it with Arch, but he did pretty well with Springs, Taylor, Washington, Carter, ect.

[TheLongshot]

The problem, Jason, is a lot of the guys you mention won't be around much longer.

Which guys? Of the ones I mentioned, Griffin and Washington are probably the closest to aging out, and Washington was still playing strong. As for Griffin, he's got young guys developing behind him who can rotate in and spell him. So, I'm not sure who you are talking about. You may say Lloyd, but the jury is still out on him.


However, from 22 to 53, we have arguably the worst talent in the NFL. This is why when we lose Pierson Prioleau, the defense simply collapses, but the Bears can lose Tommie Harris and say, "Eh...we'll be okay."

A very bad example. The Bears really missed Harris down the stretch and were quite ordinary without him. They were fortunate that Grossman had some good games down the stretch.

As for our depth, I think you underrate it. We have excelent depth at QB and RB, very good depth at OL and WR, and decent depth at most of the defensive positions. Could we improve? Sure, but I don't know a team who doesn't have room to improve.

Now, you may have overrated our starters a bit, since we have some guys who are injury prone.

But, let's not buy into the myth that every other team replaces a FA with homegrown talent all the time. New England, who are supposibly the posterboys for this, replaced both of their starting WRs in 2006. Did they have replacements ready for them? No, they signed Gaffney off the street and traded for Gabriel. Now what do they do? Sign Stallworth, Washington and trade for Welker.


You mean like recommending we sign Lloyd and Arch? You need to stop citing Lloyd as anything positive--the guy had one of the worst if not the worst season as a number 2 receiver in the history of football. That's how bad he was.

Gee, let's not ignore the fact that ARE had a similar season and had a measily 10 yards a catch for such an explosive guy, or that Santana Moss probably had his worst season since becoming a regular starter in the league.

Let us not ignore the fact that even when Campbell was in there, our passing game was pretty mediocre. Hopefully, with an offseason getting a crash course in the offense, working on his technique and working with his WRs, he will have a better season throwing the ball.

Jason

[Hooper]

Lloyd was a big problem off the field as well. As reported by JLC, and as CP said on the radio, the team and the coaches soured on the guy bigtime. He better shape up or he'll be gone sooner than later.

[skins4eva]

I'll agree that they are to address areas of need, but at the cost of multiple picks? If we had a true GM and better scouting department we could've possibly found players to fill those needs w/out the cost of those draft picks and those players could certainly put out the same production as those aforementioned players and possibly even be more productive.


That's the truth right there. I'm always amazed at our inability to develop young talent--and when we do, it actually works out well--Pierce, Dockery...wouldn't it be great to develop more talent like that?

[skins4eva]

Snyder is still half-way there in my view. I want a football person in charge. But I don't want that person to be the coach. I've never liked that set-up in any team in any sport that does not involve Red Auerbach.

And if the coach is going to be the guy...he needs a better braintrust than Cerrato.


Agreed. Cerrato?!?!?! This is the guy who pushed and pushed for Jim Drukenmiller (or whatever the hell is last name was) don't people remember that?

[Justsomeguy]

While he might be a good addition we do not need him.

[Justsomeguy]

We need DE, DT, WR, and a backup QB.

[Alvin_Walton40]

Well after reading 12 pages of this - i have come to the conclusion, that if Gibbs has final say on all things football related since he came here......he is doing a very poor job.

[drowland]

Which guys? Of the ones I mentioned, Griffin and Washington are probably the closest to aging out, and Washington was still playing strong. As for Griffin, he's got young guys developing behind him who can rotate in and spell him. So, I'm not sure who you are talking about. You may say Lloyd, but the jury is still out on him.

The contracts ARE, Carter and Lloyd signed are basically 3 yr deals. So unless those 3 vastly improve what they do, they'll be out in 2 yrs. It's not worth paying out the back $20 mil on those guys for being average at best. And Lloyd hasn't even sniffed average yet.

Yeah they've got some young DTs to work with, but they should of been coming in sooner. The Skins know Griffin's history. His level of play declines over the length of time he's with a team. And he's always banged up. He hasn't played a full 16 season yet with the Skins.


A very bad example. The Bears really missed Harris down the stretch and were quite ordinary without him. They were fortunate that Grossman had some good games down the stretch.

Yeah, they missed him. He's a great player. They also lost Mike Brown who's the leader of their secondary. Did their defensive play fall off without these guys? Yes it did. Did it completely bottom out like the Skins did? No.

[skinsn24]

Do you really follow this team? The reason I ask is that anyone who does, knows that we tend to make a 'big splash' every other year. Meaning bi-annually. Not annually. Comical at best. The rest of your post established that we made 5 "big splashes" the previous year in the offseason.

You didnt include L. Flether as a "Big Splash" this year. Interesting considering you said Lloyd, ARE, and Arch were all big splashes, yet they received what 10mil gauranteed? Maybe you forgot this:

Fletcher, 31, will sign a five-year, $25 million contract that includes $10.5 million in bonuses. He will earn nearly $13 million in the first two seasons of the deal and about $15 million over the first three years. ---This is a big splash

But lets say you don't consider 13mill in 2 years a big splash. Lets go back through the years to see if you every other year theory (which has already been disproved) is true.

This year is 2007 offseason (L. Fletcher)
Last Year was 2006 (Too many to name)

So the next year would be the 2005 offseason:
Trading Coles for Moss-huge splash
D. Patten
Draft Day trades---this offseason is as close to minimal as the skins get, yet they make huge news with major trades.

2004
S. Springs (Big Splash)
Trading Bailey for Portis (Big Splash)
M. Washington
M. Brunell
C. Griffen
The list of additions go on in this year (18 players)
oh yea bringing back Joe Gibbs

2003
L. Coles
R. Thomas
J. Hall
C. Morton
T. Candidate
Cutting Steven Davis

2002
J. Armstead
J. Trotter
R. Wynn
D. Gardner
This List goes on and on as well.

Simply put, whether or not you want to classify fletcher as a big splash your statement of
Do you really follow this team? The reason I ask is that anyone who does, knows that we tend to make a 'big splash' every other year. Meaning bi-annually. Not annually. is completly false. I wonder if you follow this team, because anyone that does, knows it has become a trend always make a big offseason splash.

[Passizle]

:silly: Beat ya to it!! See post #75 on page 3!!!

DMAN YOU!!!

I'll get you Gadget! Next time....


MEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!

[pjfootballer]

I think there are 2 problems with the team right now. Vinny Cerato is not a GM and is not even a very good player personnel director. Gibbs is the defacto GM when it comes to acquiring players.

Those two problems are what gets teams in trouble. The only coach to successfully be the Head Coach and GM was Jimmy Johnson. He was so good at evaluating talent, that he really didn't have to be that great of a coach. He had excellent coordinators working for him. What has Dallass done since he left? Nothing.

Many have tried it, with Mike Holmgren being the latest to fail. There's just too much pressure on one person to handle both jobs. Notice that when Holmgren was the GM, the Hawks were bad, but as soon as he went back to coaching and relinquished his GM position, the team has made the playoffs, been to the SB and are perenial contenders.

I want us to get back to that. I truly beleive that Gibbs could turn us around if he only did the 1 thing that he does best. Coach. Unfortunately Cerrato has no credibility as a GM right now. It would be best to go outside the organization when Gibbs retires again.

[skinsn24]

You realise those contracts will be restructured within three years, right? Or if the player doesn't work out, like Arch, they'll be gone. And you also realise that his contract was redone before we jettisoned him, correct? Maybe if you'd quit buttering your own popcorn, you'd regain your eyesight & that'd make it easier for you to follow things.

Side note here, isnt the point of signing these guys to make the team better? Not to simply write off some bad debt a couple of years later? I really dont think anyone would have a problem with the big contracts or big splashes if they actually worked, for example Portis and Moss.

[TheLongshot]

Lloyd was a big problem off the field as well. As reported by JLC, and as CP said on the radio, the team and the coaches soured on the guy bigtime. He better shape up or he'll be gone sooner than later.

I wouldn't say he was a big problem. Yes, there were some incidents, at least as far as what JLC reported, and he did rub some people the wrong way. I wouldn't say that that is fatal, tho.

Yes, he was demoted to #3 WR at the end of the season, but if he was truely in the doghouse, he wouldn't have seen the field. My pet theory is that either Gibbs wanted to try something different, or ARE was looking better in practice with Campbell. It could also be that after his helmet throwing thing against Atlanta, that Gibbs wanted him to sit down and cool it for a while.


Agreed. Cerrato?!?!?! This is the guy who pushed and pushed for Jim Drukenmiller (or whatever the hell is last name was) don't people remember that?

No one has ever taken "credit" for Druckenmiller. Everyone points fingers at each other over that one. Everything I've heard about Vinny on that one is pure rumor. Fact is, his boss, Dwight Clark, signed off on that one.

Jason

[pjfootballer]

DMAN YOU!!!

I'll get you Gadget! Next time....


MEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!


Go, Go Gadget!!!!!! :silly:

[Tastes Like Chicken]

I wish people would stop citing the same eight or ten players as proof that the team knows what it is doing.

I've made this argument a dozen times and no one disputes it. On paper, from 1 to 22 on the depth chart, the Skins are probably top five in the league in terms of talent. Portis, Moss, Cooley, Washington, Taylor...yes...all very good players. Maybe great players.

However, from 22 to 53, we have arguably the worst talent in the NFL. This is why when we lose Pierson Prioleau, the defense simply collapses, but the Bears can lose Tommie Harris and say, "Eh...we'll be okay."

Depth is the key to pretty much everything in the modern NFL. We have none.
:applause: :applause: :applause: You are exactly right.

Our starters, on paper, make up a very good team. Our depth behind most of them, is paper thin. That's what happens when you don't draft mid-round players to groom, and instead sign expensive free agents/trades and sign up guys from Walmart to back them up. (These UFA's, 5th-6th rounders and discarded players actually stick to our roster, and many here will point to that fact as proof of 'having a high success rate with personnel'). That's why they cling to Golston and Montgomery as The Answer to our defensive line woes. A 5th and a 6th round pick, respectively who are, by the way, the only defensive line players drafted in the Gibbs II era, to date. Not that I'm blaming Gibbs entirely for this. Prior to Gibbs, we drafted:

2002 Round 7- Gregory Scott DE
2001 Round 6- Mario Monds DT
2000 Round 7- Delbert Cowsette DT

That's it. Unless you go all the way back to 1997, Round 1 Kenard Lang DE. In 10 years of draft picks,we took one 1st round D line pick, one 5th, two 6th and two 7th rounders.

Any wonder why our D-line sucks?

http://www.thewarpath.net/drafthistory.htm

[skinsn24]

But, when it comes to the decisions this team makes, he is not involved. He, like every other consequential member of the organization, may offer input to the head coach, team President, but, the decisions are concluded by Gibbs, as you know, so, Snyder's not involved in the decisions that direct us in any way different from everyone else, INCLUDING ALL OF US.

1. To say synders influence in decisions is as much as any of us here is a joke. The fact that he talks to Gibbs, Players, and Agents personally, instantly make him more invovled than any one here.

2. I dont care who is "in charge." You can keep saying all you want that Gibbs makes the final decisions. That is fine. I will buy that. The problem is, that Synder has some influence over the decisions. Even if it is 1%, which is a huge understatement, Synder is in the meetings, giving his opinion, giving input to Gibbs. Gibbs can make the final decision, but Synder has NO BUSINESS proposing possible trades to Gibbs, he has no business telling Gibbs what he thinks of players. I mean if you boss told you something, you would consider it, whether you are conscience of this or not doesnt matter, it will affect you decision making.

3. Synder setting the budget and as he said on your little chat
pay whatever is required for players to end up on the best side of getting a deal done is a joke. This is the flaw in our organization, Synder is willing to pay TOO much. Sometimes Gibbs and crew may have rated Player Alpha the highest on the board, so now it is in Synders hands. Paying player Alpha 10 mil to sign, which then will not allow the Redskins to have money to sign quality depth is a mistake.

Gibbs cannot handle this concept for 3 reasons. 1. This where we all agree Synder takes over. 2. Gibbs has no concept of the salary cap and its long term implications. 3. Gibbs still thinks like a coach, thinking in the short run, a GM sees the big picture and plans for an indefiniate future.

The answer to this problem is to have a real GM who is the one who decides how much to pay a player, the type of contract he gets, and which players we need. Gibbs should stick to coaching and Synder should stick to marketing. This whole "Synder sets the budget" is bogus. The salary cap sets the budget, Synder has no max. All Synder needs to do is hire a real GM and say "You have my bank account, you can spend whatever you want, however you want, on whatever you want. You can determine the types of contracts we sign the players when we bring them in. BUT IF we suck 5 years from now, you will take the blame." The he should go and relax for the next 5 years.

[TheLongshot]

I think there are 2 problems with the team right now. Vinny Cerato is not a GM and is not even a very good player personnel director. Gibbs is the defacto GM when it comes to acquiring players.

Ok, the problem here is calling Gibbs a GM. He's Team President. There are many teams that have the GM role split into two parts: One guy to do all the scouting and another guy who makes the decisions. That's what we have.


Those two problems are what gets teams in trouble. The only coach to successfully be the Head Coach and GM was Jimmy Johnson. He was so good at evaluating talent, that he really didn't have to be that great of a coach. He had excellent coordinators working for him. What has Dallass done since he left? Nothing.

Many have tried it, with Mike Holmgren being the latest to fail. There's just too much pressure on one person to handle both jobs. Notice that when Holmgren was the GM, the Hawks were bad, but as soon as he went back to coaching and relinquished his GM position, the team has made the playoffs, been to the SB and are perenial contenders.

It is true that being both GM and Head Coach is probably too much for one man. Good thing we don't have that situation here. ;)

Fact is, Gibbs isn't a GM. He doesn't run the scouting department. He's not the one who analyses scouting reports and put ratings on them. He just has the full rights to decide what players are on his team.

There is a name you forgot to mention, who actually does have similar powers to Gibbs: Mike Shanahan.


I want us to get back to that. I truly beleive that Gibbs could turn us around if he only did the 1 thing that he does best. Coach. Unfortunately Cerrato has no credibility as a GM right now. It would be best to go outside the organization when Gibbs retires again.

Actually, he probably would be better served in the end taking on the Team President role, like Marv Levy has in Buffalo. Gibbs doing coaching full time is short term thinking. How many believe that Gibbs will coach beyond his contract? I don't. Then what? Start all over again?

I hope after Gibbs ends his coaching stint that he bumps himself upstairs and continues to guide this franchise. That is long term thinking, my friend.

Jason

[pjfootballer]

[TheLongshot]Ok, the problem here is calling Gibbs a GM. He's Team President. There are many teams that have the GM role split into two parts: One guy to do all the scouting and another guy who makes the decisions. That's what we have.

A name is only a name. President, GM, whatever. As everyone here is saying, Gibbs has final say on players. Even being the President is too much in my opinion.




It is true that being both GM and Head Coach is probably too much for one man. Good thing we don't have that situation here. ;)

Fact is, Gibbs isn't a GM. He doesn't run the scouting department. He's not the one who analyses scouting reports and put ratings on them. He just has the full rights to decide what players are on his team.

There is a name you forgot to mention, who actually does have similar powers to Gibbs: Mike Shanahan.

That thought did cross my mind, but how close has Denver really gotten to the SB since Elway retired? once, in 2005.




Actually, he probably would be better served in the end taking on the Team President role, like Marv Levy has in Buffalo. Gibbs doing coaching full time is short term thinking. How many believe that Gibbs will coach beyond his contract? I don't. Then what? Start all over again?

I hope after Gibbs ends his coaching stint that he bumps himself upstairs and continues to guide this franchise. That is long term thinking, my friend.

I thought about the Marv Levy thing also. I wasn't sure how to incorperate it in, but yeah I think once Gibbs gets to do one job and one job only, he'll be better off for it. And don't forget, despite the fact that people think that his son is running his NASCAR teams, Joe still has that in the back of his mind even if he isn't actually in Charlotte running the day to day operations. His 3rd job.

[Hooper]

That thought did cross my mind, but how close has Denver really gotten to the SB since Elway retired? once, in 2005.

I think most fans on this board would be happy with us just being in the hunt on a consistent basis.

[pjfootballer]

I think most fans on this board would be happy with us just being in the hunt on a consistent basis.

You're right. I would too, but if the ultimate goal is to win a SB, Shanahan has put some good teams together (With alot of help from Cleveland), but he still hasn't done squat since Elway.

Dual roles in the NFL DO NOT work nowadays. The game has become a 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, 365 day a year business. They get too burned out trying to fill a dual role. Holmgren was about ready to retire, then stepped down/forced out of his GM job. He's been rejuvinated the last couple of years.

[skinsn24]

You're right. I would too, but if the ultimate goal is to win a SB, Shanahan has put some good teams together (With alot of help from Cleveland), but he still hasn't done squat since Elway. This is very true, however, I would like to be in the hunt every year, i mean maybe back to back division titles, back to back wild cards even. Something that looks like winning. The superbowl is the ultimate prize and everyone else are just losers, i agree with, but some are bigger losers than others.

Mike S. has done great things in denver, they missed the playoffs for the first time in a long time last year, and i blame Mike as a coach for blowing the team up midseason. However he has the same thinking of alot of people, if it isnt a superbowl, it doesnt matter. They did get to play the steelers 2 years ago though, wish the skins could say that.

[MRMADD]

No one has ever taken "credit" for Druckenmiller. Everyone points fingers at each other over that one. Everything I've heard about Vinny on that one is pure rumor. Fact is, his boss, Dwight Clark, signed off on that one.

Jason

Well isn't that convenient? Vinny Cerrato gets full credit from you guys from his (infrequent) successes, but whenever there's a (frequent) failure you assign it to someone else.

Cerrato has been here since Snyder got here, except for one year when Marty fired him. During that time, we've had annual front office blunders of historic proportions. But you always point the finger at someone else. Never at Vinny. And certainly not at Danny.

In 2003, drafting Taylor Jacobs with a high second-rounder was Spurrier's fault. But finding Dockery in the 3rd was Cerrato's triumph. In 2004, taking Sean Taylor was a sign of front office brilliance, but taking Carlos Rogers in 2005 was Gibbs reaching.

Isn't that what you guys always tell us?

[McD5]

A good QB isn't necessary to go to the Superbowl in the NFC. Few NFC teams ever have good QBs. CJ is the answer. I would tell Portis to pack up his wigs and makeup.....and hit the bricks.

[skinsn24]

In 2003, drafting Taylor Jacobs with a high second-rounder was Spurrier's fault. But finding Dockery in the 3rd was Cerrato's triumph. In 2004, taking Sean Taylor was a sign of front office brilliance, but taking Carlos Rogers in 2005 was Gibbs reaching.

Isn't that what you guys always tell us? Great Point.

This sounds too familiar. Washington was a great addition by the front office, Archuleta was a miscalculation by GW. The list goes on and on. Here is a question i have for some Danny Supporters who say he gets ZERO blame. If we win a superbowl, does he get to keep that shiny thing? Will he get some credit for whatever took us there? I Hope not, because if he cant take 1 ounce of blame for failures, what gives him the right to take 1 ounce of credit??

[TheLongshot]

2. I dont care who is "in charge." You can keep saying all you want that Gibbs makes the final decisions. That is fine. I will buy that. The problem is, that Synder has some influence over the decisions. Even if it is 1%, which is a huge understatement, Synder is in the meetings, giving his opinion, giving input to Gibbs. Gibbs can make the final decision, but Synder has NO BUSINESS proposing possible trades to Gibbs, he has no business telling Gibbs what he thinks of players. I mean if you boss told you something, you would consider it, whether you are conscience of this or not doesnt matter, it will affect you decision making.

So, if you were a business owner, you shouldn't have any rights to say anything about how your organization should be run? That's rather perverse.

BTW, JKC wasn't above getting involved with the team business when he wanted to.


3. Synder setting the budget and as he said on your little chatis a joke. This is the flaw in our organization, Synder is willing to pay TOO much. Sometimes Gibbs and crew may have rated Player Alpha the highest on the board, so now it is in Synders hands. Paying player Alpha 10 mil to sign, which then will not allow the Redskins to have money to sign quality depth is a mistake.

Gibbs cannot handle this concept for 3 reasons. 1. This where we all agree Synder takes over. 2. Gibbs has no concept of the salary cap and its long term implications. 3. Gibbs still thinks like a coach, thinking in the short run, a GM sees the big picture and plans for an indefiniate future.

This is why they have a guy like Eric Schaffer on staff, who is an expert on the salary cap and probably approves every contract that the Redskins put out. Also, Schaffer is the chief negotiator, and probably negotiates the bulk of the contracts out there.


The answer to this problem is to have a real GM who is the one who decides how much to pay a player, the type of contract he gets, and which players we need. Gibbs should stick to coaching and Synder should stick to marketing. This whole "Synder sets the budget" is bogus. The salary cap sets the budget, Synder has no max. All Synder needs to do is hire a real GM and say "You have my bank account, you can spend whatever you want, however you want, on whatever you want. You can determine the types of contracts we sign the players when we bring them in. BUT IF we suck 5 years from now, you will take the blame." The he should go and relax for the next 5 years.

Sorry, but no one here will believe that. Snyder can live the rest of his life in Tahiti and fans will still believe that he's continually on the phone with players and agents making the choices.

Jason

[skins4eva]

Great Point.

This sounds too familiar. Washington was a great addition by the front office, Archuleta was a miscalculation by GW. The list goes on and on. Here is a question i have for some Danny Supporters who say he gets ZERO blame. If we win a superbowl, does he get to keep that shiny thing? Will he get some credit for whatever took us there? I Hope not, because if he cant take 1 ounce of blame for failures, what gives him the right to take 1 ounce of credit??

Don't worry...it ain't happening anytime soon.

[skins4eva]

So, if you were a business owner, you shouldn't have any rights to say anything about how your organization should be run? That's rather perverse.

BTW, JKC wasn't above getting involved with the team business when he wanted to.



This is why they have a guy like Eric Schaffer on staff, who is an expert on the salary cap and probably approves every contract that the Redskins put out. Also, Schaffer is the chief negotiator, and probably negotiates the bulk of the contracts out there.



Sorry, but no one here will believe that. Snyder can live the rest of his life in Tahiti and fans will still believe that he's continually on the phone with players and agents making the choices.

Jason

Sorry, Jason. But you're absolutely wrong. Even in Vinny's chat he stated that Snyder gets on the phone with the agents and does the deals...he basically does the deal and then has Eric Schaffer structure it to fit it within the cap. So, he's involved...heavily involved...negotiating contracts is heavy, serious involvement. I guarantee you, JKC (may he rest in peace) wasn't on the phone with Art Monk's agent negotiating his contract.

[MRMADD]

Don't worry...it ain't happening anytime soon.

Sad but true. In any case, if the homers think Snyder and Cerrato are doing a brilliant job now, you won't believe the ball-polishing they'll do if the Skins ever win anything.

[pjfootballer]

This is very true, however, I would like to be in the hunt every year, i mean maybe back to back division titles, back to back wild cards even. Something that looks like winning. The superbowl is the ultimate prize and everyone else are just losers, i agree with, but some are bigger losers than others.

Mike S. has done great things in denver, they missed the playoffs for the first time in a long time last year, and i blame Mike as a coach for blowing the team up midseason. However he has the same thinking of alot of people, if it isnt a superbowl, it doesnt matter. They did get to play the steelers 2 years ago though, wish the skins could say that.

I'm with you man. I just want to get back to being a franchise that is respected. I know we keep bringing up the 80's, different eras aside, we were respected as a well run, smart organization. And anyone who played us knew they would have to bring their "A" game no matter who we suited up.

[skinsn24]

So, if you were a business owner, you shouldn't have any rights to say anything about how your organization should be run? That's rather perverse. Ah yes, the real world example. That is fine, but then lets continue with the real world example. You are a company who in 14 years has had 2 years of profits, shouldnt the CEO take some of the blame??? Ok i know he has not been here for all 14, but same point, 1 decent product in what 8 years and no blame for the CEO?

Remember though this is football, he can run the business side, make sure he makes money, but no he should not get invovled in any football things or at least sit out 5 years and see what happens.
This is why they have a guy like Eric Schaffer on staff, who is an expert on the salary cap and probably approves every contract that the Redskins put out. Also, Schaffer is the chief negotiator, and probably negotiates the bulk of the contracts out there. Eric makes sure everything is Ok with the cap, meaning we are under the cap. He is paid by Synder to ensure that Synder doesnt do anything illegal or make it so his team cant play on sunday due to being over the cap. Ask Drew Rosenhous who he is friends with Adam or Dan?
Sorry, but no one here will believe that. Snyder can live the rest of his life in Tahiti and fans will still believe that he's continually on the phone with players and agents making the choices. If Danny said he was moving to Tahiti and leaving Bobby Beatherd in charge of all football operations, and then the skins go 10-6, 11-5, 14-2 and win a superbowl, i would believe him, would you?

[Skinsfor4]

Gibbs knows we cant give them any more than weve offered.I hope he says take our offer or no deal!We cant lose anyone,especially any D that we have now!

[skinsn24]

Sad but true. In any case, if the homers think Snyder and Cerrato are doing a brilliant job now, you won't believe the ball-polishing they'll do if the Skins ever win anything. I know and its horrible. If the skins win the superbowl, I will have no problem saying Danny gets some credit, Gibbs gets some credit, Vinny can even have a nibble. The reason i have no problem giving all 3 credit if we win, is because i blame all 3 when we lose.

It appears the homers are not willing to place blame but i am sure they are willing to give credit.

[skinsn24]

Sorry, Jason. But you're absolutely wrong. Even in Vinny's chat he stated that Snyder gets on the phone with the agents and does the deals...he basically does the deal and then has Eric Schaffer structure it to fit it within the cap. So, he's involved...heavily involved...negotiating contracts is heavy, serious involvement. I guarantee you, JKC (may he rest in peace) wasn't on the phone with Art Monk's agent negotiating his contract.:cheers: Eric simply makes sure we are within the legal limits of the cap so the Redskins are eligible to play football on sunday

[TheLongshot]

Well isn't that convenient? Vinny Cerrato gets full credit from you guys from his (infrequent) successes, but whenever there's a (frequent) failure you assign it to someone else.

He certainly gets enough blame from the fans, but personally, I don't think he deserves much of either, because he's not been the guy who makes the decisions most of the time. Probably the only time he's really been into making decisions is when Spurrier was here. Course, who was in charge at that point was much muddier then. I had a feeling Spurrier had a lot of say at first, and Ceratto had more say the next year.

Personally, I don't think the structure works well with a coach who lacks experience in the NFL. For those guys, they need a strong front office to help them out.

You have to remember, fans hated Casserly with a passion as well, but was it all deserved? In hindsight, probably not.

Jason

[skins4eva]

He certainly gets enough blame from the fans, but personally, I don't think he deserves much of either, because he's not been the guy who makes the decisions most of the time. Probably the only time he's really been into making decisions is when Spurrier was here. Course, who was in charge at that point was much muddier then. I had a feeling Spurrier had a lot of say at first, and Ceratto had more say the next year.

Personally, I don't think the structure works well with a coach who lacks experience in the NFL. For those guys, they need a strong front office to help them out.

You have to remember, fans hated Casserly with a passion as well, but was it all deserved? In hindsight, probably not.

Jason


First of all, no one ever hated Casserly as much as Cerrato. Secondly, if you look at our drafts when Golf Coach was here, when Vinny was running the show, they were horrendous.

[skinsn24]

Probably the only time he's really been into making decisions is when Spurrier was here. Course, who was in charge at that point was much muddier then.

How can the picture be muddier than it is now? Back then you had Spurrior flying to redskins park in the middle of the draft while vinney tried to figure out how good taylor jacobs was.

Now we have 3 guys who all want to have input and great debate over how much each person has. Gibbs is cleary the frontman, but behind the scenes who knows.

All i know is both situations had 3 constants. 1. Dan 2. Vinney 3. Losing football

[TheLongshot]

Sorry, Jason. But you're absolutely wrong. Even in Vinny's chat he stated that Snyder gets on the phone with the agents and does the deals...he basically does the deal and then has Eric Schaffer structure it to fit it within the cap. So, he's involved...heavily involved...negotiating contracts is heavy, serious involvement. I guarantee you, JKC (may he rest in peace) wasn't on the phone with Art Monk's agent negotiating his contract.

I never said that he wasn't involved with negotiations. We all know he is, but most of the contracts the Redskins sign are the low value kind of contracts. I doubt that they get Danny out of bed to negotiate those contracts. That's what I ment by the bulk of the contracts. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

At the same time, everyone on the team knows that they have a budget and what they can spend where. As Vinny said in his chat, it is all planned out three years ahead.

BTW, a quote from that interview:


The coach has the final say. We'll go through the whole process. We'll put everybody in an order. Then it will come down to the coach saying this is what I need or this is what I don't need.

Dan takes no say so in the player moves. He gives it all to Coach Gibbs. We all work together to come up with an answer and then the coach makes the final call. Like he says, somebody has to make the final call. He does.

So, is Vinny lying?

Jason

[skinsn24]

Jason,

I think we all realize that Gibbs "makes the final call." This does not mean that blame cannot be spread to other people as well. President Bush makes the final call on the iraq debacle but Rumsfeld and Cheney have taken/need to take blame as well. Before Rumsfeld left those 3 very closely resembled the 3 that run the Redskins org. It doesnt matter who is "in charge", all that matters is that collectivley they are failing

[skins4eva]

I never said that he wasn't involved with negotiations. We all know he is, but most of the contracts the Redskins sign are the low value kind of contracts. I doubt that they get Danny out of bed to negotiate those contracts. That's what I ment by the bulk of the contracts. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

At the same time, everyone on the team knows that they have a budget and what they can spend where. As Vinny said in his chat, it is all planned out three years ahead.

BTW, a quote from that interview:



So, is Vinny lying?

Jason

No way Jason, Vinny would never lie to us (dripping sarcasm)...are you really this naive?

[MRMADD]

He certainly gets enough blame from the fans, but personally, I don't think he deserves much of either, because he's not been the guy who makes the decisions most of the time. Probably the only time he's really been into making decisions is when Spurrier was here. Course, who was in charge at that point was much muddier then. I had a feeling Spurrier had a lot of say at first, and Ceratto had more say the next year.

This just sums it all up: you're basing your opinion solely on your "feelings". Not on the obvious evidence, but on your "feelings".

Man, I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the people here are men. We don't give two Snyders about your feelings.

[Jumbo]

Man, I hate to break it to you, but 99% of the people here are men. We don't give two Snyders about your feelings.


Men, I guess, but men who could teach the whiniest woman a great deal about incessant obnoxious bitching at every possible opportunity. :applause:

Nine of you knee-jerk hard-wired-on-repeat bitchfest gladiators and one homer/pollyanna/****-eyed optimist in every thread is the internets' dream realized. :cheers:

Good thing this gig pays so well. :)

[ECU-ALUM]

I used to think Coach Gibbs was in charge but with this Briggs situation it is plain to see that it's not really him...that Snyder is still playing Fantasy Football he just became much sneakier at making behind the scenes moves.

[ECU-ALUM]

First of all, no one ever hated Casserly as much as Cerrato. Secondly, if you look at our drafts when Golf Coach was here, when Vinny was running the show, they were horrendous.


That's true most Skins fans agree that Vinny has got to go.

[skinsn24]

Men, I guess, but men who could teach the whiniest woman a great deal about incessant obnoxious bitching at every possible opportunity. :applause:

Nine of you knee-jerk hard-wired-on-repeat bitchfest gladiators and one homer/pollyanna/****-eyed optimist in every thread is the internets' dream realized. :cheers:

Good thing this gig pays so well. :)

1 division title in 14 years= 13 years of bitching

Give us more wins, we'll stop bitching i promise

[TheLongshot]

This just sums it all up: you're basing your opinion solely on your "feelings". Not on the obvious evidence, but on your "feelings".

Where do you get your opinions? Out of a cracker jack box? :silly:

More than anything else, when you have 4 head coaches in 5 years, you aren't likely to find success. When you get right down to it, that more than anything is where our failures lie. That is the obvious evidence.

Meanwhile, it gets posted multiple times how this front office works, and you continue to deny it. That is also obvious evidence.

Jason

[skins4eva]

Where do you get your opinions? Out of a cracker jack box? :silly:

More than anything else, when you have 4 head coaches in 5 years, you aren't likely to find success. When you get right down to it, that more than anything is where our failures lie. That is the obvious evidence.

Meanwhile, it gets posted multiple times how this front office works, and you continue to deny it. That is also obvious evidence.

Jason


Nothing about the way this organization runs is "obvious"

Jason--now I know what your name stands for--"The Longshot" represents the Redskins chances of getting to a super bowl with Snyder and Cerrato at the helm :)

[skinsn24]

Nothing about the way this organization runs is "obvious"

Jason--now I know what your name stands for--"The Longshot" represents the Redskins chances of getting to a super bowl with Snyder and Cerrato at the helm :)hahhhaha :cheers:

[MRMADD]

Meanwhile, it gets posted multiple times how this front office works, and you continue to deny it. That is also obvious evidence.

Jason

See, that's where you're confused. Again. You think that posting the same incorrect information multiple times constitutes "obvious evidence."

Let me ask you this: do you still believe that Dan Snyder is just setting the budget and negotiating contracts? No more?

[deejaydana]

I just refuse to believe that Joe Gibbs would want Briggs. Through and through Gibbs is a football fundamentals guys. Surely he recognizes the dire need we have on the D-line. I just think the whole Briggs deal has to be Snyder pursuing another big fish in the off-season. I'd be interested in what others think about what is really going on and who is driving this proposed trade? Is it just us trying to convey to all the teams out there that we just want to move down or away from the #6 slot? thoughts ?

[TheLongshot]

See, that's where you're confused. Again. You think that posting the same incorrect information multiple times constitutes "obvious evidence."

I'm still wating for that so-called evidence.


Let me ask you this: do you still believe that Dan Snyder is just setting the budget and negotiating contracts? No more?

Sure do.

Jason

[Tastes Like Chicken]

No matter how you spin it, Danny's signature is on Coach Gibbs' paycheck. Sure, Gibbs has the final say. But who decides what the choices are?

It's like me and my 3-year old. I tell him to choose between milk and juice. He's tickled pink b/c he gets to choose. Forget about whether he actually thinks he needs lemonade, or would really prefer a Jack and Coke. Milk and juice are the options, and he gets the final say.

[skinsman4u]

Great thread Bubba, and thanks a bunch! But yeah, a little off topic here, also I would like to know what the hell is going on up in the booth. I mean why can't we see the crease in an opponents defense. Coach Saunders needs an extra pair of eyes up in the booth to assess how our play action is affecting the opponents play at safety and what opportunities does our play action give us. We have some strait up smokers at the skill positions on offense, so why can't we get it right?

Side Bar: Been trying to post some pictures for OM, but can't figure it out?

[deejaydana]

No matter how you spin it, Danny's signature is on Coach Gibbs' paycheck. Sure, Gibbs has the final say. But who decides what the choices are?

It's like me and my 3-year old. I tell him to choose between milk and juice. He's tickled pink b/c he gets to choose. Forget about whether he actually thinks he needs lemonade, or would really prefer a Jack and Coke. Milk and juice are the options, and he gets the final say.


ah I love it. an intelligent post. keep it coming! :cheers:

[Beer is Food]

No, I don't think Gibbs is right person to be the architect of this team. But that's what we're stuck with. Bobby Beatherd was the one who assembled the core of a team that won 3 SBs. Gibbs had his input, but he was the coach. That's what he's in the HOF for, coaching.

I've gone over this before with you. The problem with Gibbs running the whole show is the coach in him is too focused on the short-term view. Someone in a GM role has to have short-term and long-term view. I think it's too much for Gibbs to handle at this point in his career. It's hard for anyone to do.

I couldn’t disagree with you more.

Gibbs has proven he is the ultimate SB architect. Gibbs led 3 different teams to the SB. In Beatherd’s last year, Gibbs requested DT’s and RB as the last pieces of the puzzle. Beatherd, known for trading away picks, made trades with Detroit, Cleveland, and Atlanta. As result, Tim Johnson and Fred Stokes shored up the middle of the D, and Byner and Riggs- provided Gibbs with the best 1-2 punch in the league. In short yardage and inside the 10, Riggs was unstoppable- leading the league in TDs. The 91 Redskins were perhaps the strongest NFL team ever to take the field. I don’t think the Redskins could have chosen a better franchise savior. Gibbs job as architect in not to choose the talent, but to give the talent evaluators a blue print, so they know what pieces are needed to build the structure.

Furthermore, Gibb’s has proven he is the right guy to turn the tide. When Gibbs took over from spurrior, the Redskins were the worst Redskin team I’ve witnessed. And, the franchises dismal record was being compared to the cardinals and the Bengals! Gibbs transformed the pitch and catch team to a smash mouth playoff contender in two short years. Gibbs led the team out of the doldrums. The team and the FRANCHISE leaped forward. What happened last year?

Could you blame the lost season on injuries and a natural lack of production from a banged up defense and aging players in key positions? Is the front office misevaluating talent and providing the architect with bad information? Maybe a mix of the two? The answer is yes and no. Yes- there was injuries. Yes- there was a natural decline. And, Yes- there was mistakes made by the front office. If these were the only problems, I wouldn’t even be fazed by a poor season. I would be excited that the Skins only took a few steps back, after the Franchise made a giant leap the season prior. But the bigger answer is NO! The franchise made great progress and then the franchise took a giant leap back. And, the fundamental problem with this team has nothing to do with talent evaluation or Gibbs.

First of all, unlike most, I don’t blame the front office. If you compare Cerrato’s talent evaluation to other GM’s , he has more hits than misses. I don’t buy the lack of depth argument mainly because you need to get starters before depth, and if you remember where the skins came from before Gibbs, we had neither. The trading picks like they were candy on Halloween argument, seems to me to be over stated. During Beathards tenure, I was happy when the Skins had a second rounder. The Redskins historically have always traded away picks for known commodities. I simply don’t buy the “we need a GM argument.” I trust Gibbs controlling what players he wants, as long as he’s not bogged down by making the individual evaluations. And lastly, Snyder should give the Cap guy a friggen meddle.

The Briggs trade itself doesn’t even trouble me. If Gibbs said, get me a linebacker, and then I would think I don’t understand, but I do know that Gibbs knows more than me, so- I’m ok with it.

However, looking at the reflections of the Briggs trade crystallizes the fundamental problem with this franchise. Snyder is drawing up the blue print, and then bringing it to the architect as an after thought. Frankly, I don’t even think less of Snyder for this lack of foresight. Who wouldn’t want to be an integral part of the operations- especially when you invest so much time and money to reach a goal. Snyder is the ultimate billion dollar fan. And, truth be told I respect him because he is willing to sacrifice more than any of us to see a winner back in Washington. The problem with Snyder is the same problem we all share. It’s easy to point out weakness in another. It’s harder to reflect on weakness in your self. And hypothetically, it would be even more difficult to recognize weakness when you are receiving sycophantic advice. Irregardless, Snyder needs to recognize that Gibbs must not be consulted; he needs to be allowed to lead.

Joe Gibbs is not only the ultimate architect for the Redskins franchise, but he is the ultimate coach. As an architect he knows what pieces he needs to build a winning team. And, as a coach he knows what game time adjustments to make and what plays to call. The players know he is charge and the buck stops with him. Last year, Gibbs didn’t call the plays, and now whether or not he is the one sketching the blue print is in question.

The franchises problem is that the team has shifted it’s overall structure away from it’s strength. The strength of this team relies on trusting their most important asset. Joe Gibbs is the Redskins greatest asset. Until Snyder returns this trust, the franchise will fail.

The Redskins need their leader to be allowed to lead.

[skinsn24]

More than anything else, when you have 4 head coaches in 5 years, you aren't likely to find success. When you get right down to it, that more than anything is where our failures lie. That is the obvious evidence. Who's fault is that again? ......oh i know, it must have been Gibbs' fault...........








Or maybe Dannys should take blame for that one?

[MCnDaHouse]

The title of this thread should be "Who's in charge" not "Whose in charge"... lol

I do agree we need a good GM.

MC

[skinsn24]

Gibbs has proven he is the ultimate SB architect. Gibbs led 3 different teams to the SB. In Beatherd’s last year, Gibbs requested DT’s and RB as the last pieces of the puzzle. What you fail to realize here, is it was then Beatherd who went out and got the players, this allowed Gibbs to focus on what he did well, coaching. If we had a GM like Beatherd, Gibbs could then make these requests and have the right players brought in for the the right value. Unfortunalty, neither Synder, Vinny, nor Gibbs, understands the right value concept. Lets not forget Gibbs tried to get John Riggens back to trade him.....
Beatherd, known for trading away picks, made trades with Detroit, Cleveland, and Atlanta. As result, Tim Johnson and Fred Stokes shored up the middle of the D, and Byner and Riggs- provided Gibbs with the best 1-2 punch in the league. A Valid point here, but you again neglect that fact that 1. It was not Gibbs who decided what to trade and for who, he simply points out positions of need. 2. And more importantly, the NFL was different 20-30 years ago. Free Agency wasnt round, players played for the love of the game, and got paid less than their coach. Some things only work in certain time, the draft is now proven to work in todays NFL.
Gibbs job as architect in not to choose the talent, but to give the talent evaluators a blue print, so they know what pieces are needed to build the structure BINGO!! This statement is correct, this is what Gibbs should be doing. It is strange that this statement goes agaisnt everything else you wrote. I agree Gibbs should make requests and then a real GM and real scouting depatment should go out and get those players. However, this is not what is happening right now. Gibbs, along with D and V, not only decide what is needed, they evualuate, and then get the players. The problem is 1. None of the 3 are good at building a team (Gibbs is a good coach, not more) 2. They all think in the short run. 3. None of them has a track record at finding talant.
Furthermore, Gibb’s has proven he is the right guy to turn the tide. When Gibbs took over from spurrior, the Redskins were the worst Redskin team I’ve witnessed. ......And, the fundamental problem with this team has nothing to do with talent evaluation or Gibbs. While I agree we are in better shape 3 years after Steve, I still have to point out when he left we were 5-11, in 2006, we were 5-11. If the fundmental problem is not talent evaluation or Gibbs, what is the fundamental problem??
If you compare Cerrato’s talent evaluation to other GM’s , he has more hits than misses. This is horribly incorrect. I would recommend you have facts before you make a statement like that. Here, skins4eva made a great thread showing Vinny's draft record compared to real GMs.

Vinny Picks: http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194590&page=1&pp=15

Other Teams picks: http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=194590&page=4&pp=15

I would also like to point out that Vinny rated Carlos Rogers as the number 1 defensive player in the draft that year. D. Ware and S.Merriman were in that same class. Not saying we didnt need a corner, just pointing out he can't judge talant. Lastly, he has not drafted a DE or DT higher than the 6th round since 2000. (Mind boggiling considering DL is where a good D starts..see the 2000 Ravens)
I don’t buy the lack of depth argument mainly because you need to get starters before depth, and if you remember where the skins came from before Gibbs, we had neither. :doh: :doh: How many times have the redskins looked "good on paper" The problem is in the NFL you need more than 22 good players, check the Bears they lost Tommy Harris and Mike Brown (2 probowlers) but they barely missed a step on the defensive side of the ball. The Redskins lose PP and all of a sudden their secondary is the worst i have ever seen.
The trading picks like they were candy on Halloween argument, seems to me to be over stated. During Beathards tenure, I was happy when the Skins had a second rounder. The Redskins historically have always traded away picks for known commodities. :doh: See what I wrote above, this is a different NFL than it was 20 or 30 years ago. The draft is needed, check the Pats or the Colts or the Bears. PS. Brandon LLoyd and TJ Ducket, "2 proven commodities" did not work out well. How many "proven" free agents didnt work out (AA, Trotter,...)
I simply don’t buy the “we need a GM argument.” I trust Gibbs controlling what players he wants, as long as he’s not bogged down by making the individual evaluations. Umm, he is the team President, he is bogged down with all this stuff, it is the 3 headed beast that makes all the decisions. He is not just simply coaching and asking for players, where have you been?

It is very interesting that you are ok with Gibbs controlling the players he wants but dont want him "bogged down by making the individual evaluations" yet you dont want him to get a GM, so are you ok with Synder going out and gettnig Gibbs his players???

[cphil006]

Who's in charge?

This reminds me..

One of my favorite TV shows was "Who's the Boss?"

[Beer is Food]

It's Saturday. I have already proven my geekness with one extremley long post. I don't want to waste the rest of the day. So, I'll just say this...

First, I'm evaluating Cerrato only on how he has performed since Gibbs arrival. It's not fair to go back any further because he was drafting for different systems and different coaches. He was good enough to overhaul our team and get Gibbs enough players to get back to the playoffs. BACK TO THE PLAYOFFS IN TWO YEARS!

Second, you see Gibbs role now as the GM. Evaluating all the players, ect., etc. I don't. Ideally, if Gibbs really did have total control, I see his role as supervisory. We need x,y,z. Cerratto and staff finds the players, evaluates them and presents the scenerios for x,y,z. Gibbs doesn't get bogged down but is more involved than Beatherd's scenerio mainly because Gibbs makes the final decision of who we are targeting and who we actually pick- not Beatherd. The fact that free agency did not exist in Gibbs tenure, has no bearing. It only gives Gibbs more options to get what he wants faster.

Third, I don't see a doomsday scenerio because of a losing season. There are a lot of reasons a team can have a crappy season. I see a deeper problem. I see a HOF coach who's not coaching. I see a football mastermind not being utilized. And, I see me wasting my day writing this crap... URGHHHH? That's it I'm done... Time to call my D&D buddies...

[skinsn24]

It's Saturday. I have already proven my geekness with one extremley long post. I don't want to waste the rest of the day. So, I'll just say this...

First, I'm evaluating Cerrato only on how he has performed since Gibbs arrival. It's not fair to go back any further because he was drafting for different systems and different coaches. He was good enough to overhaul our team and get Gibbs enough players to get back to the playoffs. BACK TO THE PLAYOFFS IN TWO YEARS!

Second, you see Gibbs role now as the GM. Evaluating all the players, ect., etc. I don't. Ideally, if Gibbs really did have total control, I see his role as supervisory. We need x,y,z. Cerratto and staff finds the players, evaluates them and presents the scenerios for x,y,z. Gibbs doesn't get bogged down but is more involved than Beatherd's scenerio mainly because Gibbs makes the final decision of who we are targeting and who we actually pick- not Beatherd. The fact that free agency did not exist in Gibbs tenure, has no bearing. It only gives Gibbs more options to get what he wants faster.

Third, I don't see a doomsday scenerio because of a losing season. There are a lot of reasons a team can have a crappy season. I see a deeper problem. I see a HOF coach who's not coaching. I see a football mastermind not being utilized. And, I see me wasting my day writing this crap... URGHHHH? That's it I'm done... Time to call my D&D buddies...

I am just going to tell you this much, you cannot evaluate Cerrato strictly on the last 3 years as Gibbs has been the one making the picks. You can deny that Gibbs is the team president, but he is, and he is bogged down by all of this. Gibbs should not be on the phone calling the bears, niether should snyder or cerato. I Real GM should be.

PS. Free agency has a huge impact on Gibbs. As you said it gives him more options, but this bogs him down even further, and is something he has no experience dealing with. GIBBS IS NOT SUITED TO BE A GM. end of story.

[FtheCowboys84]

Last I checked Gibbs was a HOFer and Vinny and Snyder aren't. I trust Gibbs over them and anyone on this board.

[skinsn24]

Last I checked Gibbs was a HOFer and Vinny and Snyder aren't. I trust Gibbs over them and anyone on this board. Gibbs is a hall of fame coach, he has no history of team building or acquiring players.

Vinny and Dan are even worse!! The problem is there is nobody on the staff that has had sucess as a team builder or GM. Vinny has always been horrible and Gibbs and Synder have no experience.

Trusting Gibbs with GM responcibilities because he is a Hall of Fame coach is like trusting Lawerence Taylor to be a coach because he was a hall of fame player. The skill sets and experience of a coach and GM are not the same

[dinzelwashington]

dan snyder dont know what it takes to win. he thinks the best player in the FA is going to take us to the promise land., it isnt. its time amongst the same team. how is releasing and picking up new players year in and year out going to win us the ring. i just dont see any chemistry in that.