Is Larry Allen HOF material?

[DWinzit]

I was in a debate at work Friday with a number of Giant, Jet, Bills, Dolphin, Steeler and Cowboy fans over the question "is Larry Allen Hall of Fame material?"

It was interesting to hear the arguments. I believe he is a 10 time Pro Bowler, has a SB ring and was named to the 1990's All Decade Team.

He will always be a puke in my eyes so this hurts me, but I think he's in. :doh:

What do you think?

[cnhnyy]

Yes, he is.

[dogunwo]

I was in a debate at work Friday with a number of Giant, Jet, Bills, Dolphin, Steeler and Cowboy fans over the question "is Larry Allen Hall of Fame material?"

It was interesting to hear the arguments. I believe he is a 10 time Pro Bowler, has a SB ring and was named to the 1990's All Decade Team.

He will always be a puke in my eyes so this hurts me, but I think he's in. :doh:

What do you think?
Yes, he is in. If first ballot means anything, then he should be in on the first ballot.

[FtheCowboys84]

no cowboy should make the HOF until monk gets in.

[dwdj75]

Yes, he's in. Hands down, no contest.

[dogunwo]

no cowboy should make the HOF until monk gets in.
You keep thinking that. You can't possibly think that is realistic though. Emmit will probably will get in before Monk.

[DWinzit]

The debate began with Nate Newton and the fact that his opportunity probably went up in smoke;) .


When it moved to Allen I was surprised at the negative views and the thoughts that he would eventually get in. No one seemed to think he would be a first ballot guy.:whoknows:

[DWinzit]

Emmit will probably will get in before Monk.Bite your tongue!:mad:

[RW]

You keep thinking that. You can't possibly think that is realistic though. Emmit will probably will get in before Monk.


I don't think it's realistic to believe that a player of Monk's caliber is still waiting for these dopes to vote him in. Reality goes out the window when your talking about the Pro Football Hall of Fame. :mad:
By the way..... :dallasuck

[Park City Skins]

In a word, yes. He's going in. Man was one of the most dominating linemen to play the game.

[Jeremiah_Johnson]

No brainer. In

[M&W]

I was in a debate at work Friday with a number of Giant, Jet, Bills, Dolphin, Steeler and Cowboy fans over the question "is Larry Allen Hall of Fame material?"

It was interesting to hear the arguments. I believe he is a 10 time Pro Bowler, has a SB ring and was named to the 1990's All Decade Team.

He will always be a puke in my eyes so this hurts me, but I think he's in. :doh:

What do you think?

He's the greatest offensive guard to ever play the game, he's a first ballot HOFer easy

[HeHateMe]

First ballot. No question.

Widely considered the best guard to ever play the game.

His ability to also play tackle effectively made him that much more valuable.

[IrishOrange15]

He's also made the Pro Bowl at tackle as well.

If he's not in, I'm not sure what one has to do to get in the HOF.






YAKUZA

[bubba9497]

First ballot. No question.

Widely considered the best guard to ever play the game.

His ability to also play tackle effectively made him that much more valuable.


First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

[bubba9497]

He's also made the Pro Bowl at tackle as well.

If he's not in, I'm not sure what one has to do to get in the HOF.






YAKUZA


Well, the same is being said about, Monk, Grimm, and Jacoby

[BigDFan5]

:laugh:
First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby


:laugh:


LA is definately a 1st ballot guy

[M&W]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

Grimm and Jacoby were very good

Larry Allen was the greatest to ever play his position. If he doesnt deserve to get in on the first ballot, no one does.

[M&W]

Well, the same is being said about, Monk, Grimm, and Jacoby

Art Monk is a classic example of production due to attrition. He had only 6 seasons in his 16 year career in which he compiled over 58 catches, had 7 seasons of less than 50 catches, and 3 seasons under 40 catches, and averaged just over 52 catches a year for his career. He never caught more than 8 TDs in a season and averaged just a little over 4 TDs a year for his career.

To put this in perspective, Michael Irvin, who everyone here claims should not be in ahead of Monk, averaged over 68 catches a year for his career and almost 6 TDs a year.

Neither Grimm or Jacoby was dominant on the level that LA was, so that holds little merit

[HoyaSkins28]

yeah he'll get in, but not right away

[Cassow]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

What's your argument for him not being on the first ballot?


LA has been to 11 Pro Bowls....thats 3 more than Grimm and Jacoby combined. He was one of 3 players in NFL history to start 3 different O Line positions in the pro bowl. He is the strongest player to ever play the game.....and is widely considered the best guard in NFL history.

But then again....I'm sure Russ and Joe had better "character".:rolleyes:

[DWinzit]

Art Monk is a classic example of production due to attrition. He had only 6 seasons in his 16 year career in which he compiled over 58 catches, had 7 seasons of less than 50 catches, and 3 seasons under 40 catches, and averaged just over 52 catches a year for his career. He never caught more than 8 TDs in a season and averaged just a little over 4 TDs a year for his career.

To put this in perspective, Michael Irvin, who everyone here claims should not be in ahead of Monk, averaged over 68 catches a year for his career and almost 6 TDs a year.While Irvin was the only decent WR on his team, Monk shared the ball with two other good WR's through much of his career. Along with sharing the ball, low reception totals can also be attributed to the league only played 9 games in one season, injuries and it is hard to mention his final year in with the Jets when he only played in 3 games.

While Irvin had one HOF QB throw to him throughout his career, Monk had Theisman, Kruczek, Shroeder, Wililiams, Rypien, Shuler, Humphies, Frerotte, Friesz, Gannon, Conklin okay I'll stop. do you think Irvin would have had a productive season with Heath Shuler:doh: throwing to him?

[M&W]

While Irvin was the only decent WR on his team

I stopped reading here

Novacheck, Harper, Martin, and even Emmitt, who was one of the best pass catching backs on his era.

[No_Pressure]

Yes he is, not on his 10 pro bowls but on the fact that he really was that good.

Russ Grimm should be in also. Best guard of his era.

[sknsrbck26]

Grimm> L.A.

[M&W]

Grimm> L.A.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

There isnt a single knowledgable NFL fan/player/analyist who would agree with you

[Barney B]

Larry Allen was the greatest to ever play his position. If he doesnt deserve to get in on the first ballot, no one does.

He's certainly a Hall of Famer, first ballot.

But it's pretty subjective. Randall McDaniel (12 Pro Bowls) and John Hannah (10 All-Pro teams) may have been as good, or better.

[RDSKNfaithfull]

Anybody who doesn't think Larry Allen is a first ballot HOFer should stop watching football because you just don't get it.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Yes, he deserves to get in.

But no matter how many times Dallas fans call him "the best ever", it's still not true. The Best G ever was John Hannah, and then you can debate Allen with at least a half dozen others for 2nd best.

[Goaldeje]

Art Monk is a classic example of production due to attrition. He had only 6 seasons in his 16 year career in which he compiled over 58 catches, had 7 seasons of less than 50 catches, and 3 seasons under 40 catches, and averaged just over 52 catches a year for his career. He never caught more than 8 TDs in a season and averaged just a little over 4 TDs a year for his career.

To put this in perspective, Michael Irvin, who everyone here claims should not be in ahead of Monk, averaged over 68 catches a year for his career and almost 6 TDs a year.

Neither Grimm or Jacoby was dominant on the level that LA was, so that holds little merit

You're a dope.

It's more about the eras they played in. The NFL of the 90's when Irvin was dominant was a passing league. In the 80's, when Monk "compiled", the league was transitioning to a passing league, but wasn't there yet.

Why is it impossible for Cowboys fans to admit that Monk deserves to be in the Hall? I am perfectly willing to say that Irvin should be in, and should have been in years ago. He was a dominant WR, as was Art Monk. How hard is that, really?

As for Larry Allen? Yes, first ballot HOF, no questions asked.

But then again, Grimm and Jacoby should be in as well.

[Fred Jones]

I stopped reading here

Novacheck, Harper, Martin, and even Emmitt, who was one of the best pass catching backs on his era.


Irvin had a HOF QB throwing to him getting him all those stats.

Second, yes, LA deserves to be in the HOF, no question. Greatest ever is always difficult to say. A lot of good linemen have come and gone. Some played better for longer.

Emmit Smith is the all team yardage leader, but he is not the greatest RB of all time.

[cakmoney61]

First-ballot HOFer. In his prime, he was the football version of Shaq!

[dallasfan]

Why is it impossible for Cowboys fans to admit that Monk deserves to be in the Hall? I am perfectly willing to say that Irvin should be in, and should have been in years ago. He was a dominant WR, as was Art Monk. How hard is that, really?

For the same reason skins fans will tell you DGreen was better than DSanders, despite what most non Falcon/Boys/49ers fans would say. But for what it's worth Art Monk should be in the hall of fame.

[DWinzit]

I stopped reading here

Novacheck, Harper, Martin, and even Emmitt, who was one of the best pass catching backs on his era.:laugh: Then you made a big mistake! First, please notice I stated WR, which neither Novecek nor Emmitt were. Although Monk didn't enjoy having a HOF RB throughout his career like Irvin, the Skins normally had good receivers out of the backfield like Byner, Joe Washington and Kelvin Bryant.

Now back to where you challenged me at WR. Here are the numbers of your two while in Dallas with Irvin and the Skins best two while in Washington with Monk:
Kelvin Martin 232 2980 9
Alvin Harper 124 2486 18
vs.
Gary Clark 549 8742 56
Ricky Sanders 414 5854 36
:cool:

[Fred Jones]

For the same reason skins fans will tell you DGreen was better than DSanders, despite what most non Falcon/Boys/49ers fans would say. But for what it's worth Art Monk should be in the hall of fame.

Green should get in on character alone. DSanders was one of the greatest pure cover corners to ever play. He was also a great return guy. However, Sanders career ended, eight plus years before DGreen. He no longer was a HOF corner when he left the pukes, and he should have stayed retired before going to Balt. And for the record, Green was faster. However, this is a LA thread and not going to debate further on a man that defined the word class.

[bedlamVR]

Larry Allen is so good the Cowboys thought Kyle Kosier was a better fit last year.

I have absolutly no doubt that he will be in the HOF because he played with a star on his helmet for most of his career. But was he ever deserving of so much praise or was he simply on a good team at thier peek .

I think the OL is very difficult to acredit appropiate praise because it a unit effort not individual talent. While a good offensive line can make a bad quateback/running back better and exceptional QB/RB can also make the offesnsive line better .

How much of the offensive lines production down to Allens personal contribution?

How big a gap did Smith need to weave his magic also how much an influence was Darryl "Moose" Johnson in opening them holes?

Also Aikmen generally kept his Jersy clean but that was more his ability to get rid of the ball in an instant and always find his target with his lazer arm or was it becasue of outstanding offensive line in front of him ?

. Where was Allen to help out Troy Hambrick or Chad Hutchinson?

He was a good OL and quite possibly the strongest ever to play the game not not the best offensive lineman. There were always questions about his work ethic and he had troubles with his weight often tuning up to camp late and overwight . He was on the 1995 SB team but was never a game changer and that was the end of the great Cboys teams of the 90s who had also won 2 of the previous 3 SB which gives you an idea of the overall talent. The drivers of that team were Irvin, Aikmen and Smith..... Allen was along for the ride.

Pro Bowls meen nothing now adays especially on the offensive line where Gourde got voted to this years probowl because he got name recognition nationwise because of the Haynesworth incedent

[tr4]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

LA will get in on the first ballot. This is a no brainer, one of the best guards to ever play the game.

[HeHateMe]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

Like I said, first ballot.

And why bother addressing the second portion of that?

Todd Wade has had a better career than Larry Allen has.

[HeHateMe]

Well, the same is being said about, Monk, Grimm, and Jacoby

And Irv...wait, he's in. ;) :D

[HeHateMe]

What's your argument for him not being on the first ballot?


LA has been to 11 Pro Bowls....thats 3 more than Grimm and Jacoby combined. He was one of 3 players in NFL history to start 3 different O Line positions in the pro bowl. He is the strongest player to ever play the game.....and is widely considered the best guard in NFL history.

But then again....I'm sure Russ and Joe had better "character".:rolleyes:

Don't bother.

Every Redskin guard to ever suit up had a better career than Allen.

[bedlamVR]

Don't bother.

Every Redskin guard to ever suit up had a better career than Allen.

You had the Hata-flakes? this morning no one has said that but Allen was good but not first round HOF not while there is not one single representitive of the Hogs in the HOF... thats what people are saying and is that unfair?

I am sure there are some cowboys fans petitioning for Tony Romo HOF enshirenment already.

[Cassow]

Larry Allen is so good the Cowboys thought Kyle Kosier was a better fit last year.

I have absolutly no doubt that he will be in the HOF because he played with a star on his helmet for most of his career. But was he ever deserving of so much praise or was he simply on a good team at thier peek .

I think the OL is very difficult to acredit appropiate praise because it a unit effort not individual talent. While a good offensive line can make a bad quateback/running back better and exceptional QB/RB can also make the offesnsive line better .

How much of the offensive lines production down to Allens personal contribution?

How big a gap did Smith need to weave his magic also how much an influence was Darryl "Moose" Johnson in opening them holes?

Also Aikmen generally kept his Jersy clean but that was more his ability to get rid of the ball in an instant and always find his target with his lazer arm or was it becasue of outstanding offensive line in front of him ?

. Where was Allen to help out Troy Hambrick or Chad Hutchinson?

He was a good OL and quite possibly the strongest ever to play the game not not the best offensive lineman. There were always questions about his work ethic and he had troubles with his weight often tuning up to camp late and overwight . He was on the 1995 SB team but was never a game changer and that was the end of the great Cboys teams of the 90s who had also won 2 of the previous 3 SB which gives you an idea of the overall talent. The drivers of that team were Irvin, Aikmen and Smith..... Allen was along for the ride.

Pro Bowls meen nothing now adays especially on the offensive line where Gourde got voted to this years probowl because he got name recognition nationwise because of the Haynesworth incedent



:doh: :doh: :doh:

I won't even bother.


There isn't a single knowledgeable football fan out there that would agree with what you just wrote.

"Allen was along for the ride" :laugh: :laugh::doh:

I think you should stick to watching soccer and cricket.

[MisterPinstripe]

You had the Hata-flakes? this morning no one has said that but Allen was good but not first round HOF not while there is not one single representitive of the Hogs in the HOF... thats what people are saying and is that unfair?

I am sure there are some cowboys fans petitioning for Tony Romo HOF enshirenment already.

I wouldnt hold your breath for the hogs. One of the best o-lines in league history, won superbowls, and yet you have guys from teams like the Bills who have tons of guys in the HOF. How many guys from those superbowls are in? HOF is a joke. LA though should get in.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Allen was awesome. He's in.

(I've always felt that Grimm's failure to get elected was worse than Monk's. I've never really thought Jacoby should make it).

[bedlamVR]

:doh: :doh: :doh:

I won't even bother.



"Allen was along for the ride" :laugh: :laugh::doh:

I think you should stick to watching soccer and cricket.


I should go back to watching soccer and cricket maybe you should go back to watching power lifting as that is mostly what the man love of Larry Allen is based on. Larry Allen in the games I saw him in was very...average. Now I don't get to see all the games but i never understood the hype.

I forget how many years I would venture onto a cowboys message board to see the fans wetting themselves over how much LA could bench press when he eventually turned up to camp .

I stand by everything with what I posted and I am sure somone will debate the points and shoot down my argument but not some cowpuke fan who probably couldn't point to england let alone manchester on the map with a jibe about where i live.

You honestly think Larry Allen is first round ballet material he hasn't retired yet but just look who has. Will Shileds. And no one is anointing him HOF status. He just retired from the Cheifs he was an intigral part of what made that offence run along with Willie Roaf . He was more than the one trick pony Allen was showing both strength and agility opening up the lanes for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson to become the most prolific running backs in the league and allow the retred Trent Green to become a top flight QB.

He aslo has to 12 pro bowl appearances and performed at an extremly high level throughout his career ... Two things Allen hasn't

Although I will give you the benifit of the doubt and assume you ment to write

"There isn't a single self-oppinonated-myopic-cowboys-are-the-only-football team-i-watch-in-the-world-because-they-are-'gods team'-you-heathen scum-now-wheres-my-twelve-year-old-son-timmy-i-wish-to-molest-him football fan out there that would agree with what you just wrote."

and you are probably right.

[Rocky21]

Larry Allen was good at the beginning of his career but he has been cruising on reputation alone for many, many years.

[Veretax]

Does he have super bowl rings (check)
Does he have multiple pro-bowl appearances (check)
Is he a Cowboy (Check)
Has he been caught using drugs, or gotten in trouble with the NFL (check)


yup I'd say that is a yes :doh:

[dwdj75]

Does he have super bowl rings (check)
Does he have multiple pro-bowl appearances (check)
Is he a Cowboy (Check)
Has he been caught using drugs, or gotten in trouble with the NFL (check)

yup I'd say that is a yes :doh:

:doh:

[M&W]

Larry Allen was good at the beginning of his career but he has been cruising on reputation alone for many, many years.

"Many" = 3

:rolleyes:

[bedlamVR]

"Many" = 3

:rolleyes:

The guy was on cruis control trhoughout the Parcells eara and beyond and last year he was with the 9ers...

If he was just cruising for 3 years though that would be a quater of his NFL career he is sounding less and less like a HOF player to me

[Charlies Chinchillas]

If any teams fans besides Cowboy ones think Larry Allen should be in the Hall of Fame it should be us Skins fans. I cant keep track of all the times Larry Allen created holes for Emmitt Smith against us. He caused Skins fans nightmares for years. He gets my vote easily and should get all of ours. Just like Cowboy fans should respect the Skins players from the 80s we should respect the Boys players from the 90s.:cheers:

[M&W]

The guy was on cruis control trhoughout the Parcells eara and beyond and last year he was with the 9ers...

If he was just cruising for 3 years though that would be a quater of his NFL career he is sounding less and less like a HOF player to me

I say "cruising" because he was only semi-dominant and wasnt the #1 vote getter among O-Linemen for the Pro-Bowl.

Not many guys can "cruise" and still be easily the strongest man in the NFL and make the Pro-Bowl every year :laugh:

[Siven]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

:notworthy :applause: :notworthy

[Siven]

You honestly think Larry Allen is first round ballet material he hasn't retired yet but just look who has. Will Shileds. And no one is anointing him HOF status. He just retired from the Cheifs he was an intigral part of what made that offence run along with Willie Roaf . He was more than the one trick pony Allen was showing both strength and agility opening up the lanes for Priest Holmes and Larry Johnson to become the most prolific running backs in the league and allow the retred Trent Green to become a top flight QB.

He aslo has to 12 pro bowl appearances and performed at an extremly high level throughout his career ... Two things Allen hasn't

.

actually, I've seen a lot about will shields and willie roaf being future hall of famers.

[bedlamVR]

actually, I've seen a lot about will shields and willie roaf being future hall of famers.

But not in this discussion and it should be if you are going to talk about players supposedly worthy of the HOF.

"I say "cruising" because he was only semi-dominant and wasn’t the #1 vote getter among O-Linemen for the Pro-Bowl.

Not many guys can "cruise" and still be easily the strongest man in the NFL and make the Pro-Bowl every year "

So semi dominant offensive linesmen can get in the HOF now ....Semi Dominant is that like a bit pregnant? Its funny i thought it was hall of fame for the best players of thier eara not hall of pretty-good-players-who-were-great-once.

You will know of course that Andre Gourde was chosen to go to the pro bowl but he played on a unit that was 12th in the league in rushing and 20th in the league for sacks allowed . The reason he made the pro bowl is because he plays in Dallas and he was involved with the Albert Hayneswerth stomping incident . Yet the dallas fans will use the probowl as a reason to celebrate how great their players are where as Chris Samuels played on a unit that was 3rd in yards rushing and 4th in sacks allowed and he went to the probowl and yet no one thinks he was deserving. Indeed the most consistent redskins linesman for years has been Randy Thomas and he has never made the probowl for the skins. Pro Bowl is, especially on the offensive line not a measure of production but of name recognition.

As for Larry Allen being the strongest man in the NFL does that make him HOF worthy? Chris Henry of the WWF was the strongest man in the world does that make him a great athlete? Darrell Green was the fastest man in the NFL for years yet I seriously doubt he will make the HOF.

If any teams fans besides Cowboy ones think Larry Allen should be in the Hall of Fame it should be us Skins fans. I cant keep track of all the times Larry Allen created holes for Emmitt Smith against us. He caused Skins fans nightmares for years. He gets my vote easily and should get all of ours. Just like Cowboy fans should respect the Skins players from the 80s we should respect the Boys players from the 90s.

Cowboys fans don't respect Redskins players of the 80s so why should we respect players for the cowboys in the 90s if they are over rated? Allen was at some point in he career a very good lineman but not HOF worthy. Emmitt Smith however he should be first round ballet he was a phenomenal runner who changed games by himself and played injured and with heart .

Emmit Smith caused the Redskins fans nightmares . The Redskins planned to keep Emmitt Smith under control in games (a plan that seldom worked) teams didn’t plan around Larry Allen. That is like saying Rich Seubert caused the skins fits over the last two years not Tiki Barber. I have said the OL plays a part in the running backs production but on occasion the running back has some part to play.

[Rocky21]

I say "cruising" because he was only semi-dominant and wasnt the #1 vote getter among O-Linemen for the Pro-Bowl.

Not many guys can "cruise" and still be easily the strongest man in the NFL and make the Pro-Bowl every year :laugh:
Yeah he was so dominant that he helped the offensive line of the Cowboys to become one of the teams biggest weaknesses in '04 and '05.

He was so dominant he was replaced by Kyle Kosier.

He was so dominant he failed Parcells' conditioning test at the start of training camp, causing him to miss about a week of practice.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

First Ballot? no

deserve in, right behind Grimm & Jacoby

ok Bubba, I see you rank Monk over Irvin and Grimm over L.A. I want to get a perspective on some other head to heads between Skins and Boys. Judging them on football performance alone!

Riggins or Emmitt
Theisman or Aikman
Manley or Haley
Green or Sanders
Jacoby or Williams
Didier or Novachek
Butz or Lett

[Rufus T Firefly]

Riggins or Emmitt

Emmitt, but both are first ballot guys.


Theisman or Aikman

Aikman


Manley or Haley

Haley, but neither should be in.


Green or Sanders

Sanders, narrowly.


Jacoby or Williams

Jacoby


Didier or Novachek

Novacek, but neither should get in.


Butz or Lett

Butz

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Emmitt, but both are first ballot guys.

yep.




Aikman

yep.





Haley, but neither should be in.

yep.




Sanders, narrowly.

Tie. I cant go against D.Green as good as Dion was, Green was just as good.




Jacoby

Williams was better in spurts, but Jocoby had the better career




Novacek, but neither should get in.

yep.




Butz

Lett.

[Rufus T Firefly]

So, your big argument against homerism is to present a bunch of examples in which you can't once say the Redskin was better? That's great.

Butz' career was 5 years longer, he had more sacks, and he was the #1 factor in the Redskins having the best run D thru the early/mid 80's. Apart form being on SportsCenter a lot for making two of the biggest bonehead plays in NFL history, what argument is there for Lett having a better career?

[TonyRomoProBowl]

So, your big argument against homerism is to present a bunch of examples in which you can't once say the Redskin was better? That's great.

Butz' career was 5 years longer, he had more sacks, and he was the #1 factor in the Redskins having the best run D thru the early/mid 80's. Apart form being on SportsCenter a lot for making two of the biggest bonehead plays in NFL history, what argument is there for Lett having a better career?

I appreciatte your reply and your input, but when Bubba answers yopu may see why i asked him.

[Die Hard]

In my mind.... Allen is a 1st ballot HoF. Of course, I believe that there are some players that should be in the Hall that aren't as well... so what do I know.

But with that being said.... I could care less about the HoF. I think it's a sham due to the selection process. And that's too bad.

[bubba9497]

ok Bubba, I see you rank Monk over Irvin and Grimm over L.A. I want to get a perspective on some other head to heads between Skins and Boys. Judging them on football performance alone!

Riggins or Emmitt
Theisman or Aikman
Manley or Haley
Green or Sanders
Jacoby or Williams
Didier or Novachek
Butz or Lett


Riggins

Aikmen

Manley if he had been straight and clean, but drugs ended his career too early

Charles Mann would be a better option, and over Haley... but neither is HOF worthy

Green, hands down

Didier? he had a couple of very good years, but the most catches he ever had in a season was 36, better option... Jerry Smith... who would be a tie with Novacheck... but neither is HOF worthy

Butz was the dormant DT in the 70's and 80's that never got the credit or press Randy White did, though Butz was comparable if not better against the run

Lett isn't even worthy of a sniff at the pro-bowl

[pjfootballer]

I say Allen will get in the HOF. Not 1st ballot. Rarely has an offensive linemen been 1st ballot. Plus, you'll have to see who else is available that year also. Skill positions will win out every time.

[CaptChaos86]

Skill positions will win out every time.

And if they have worn that stupid star on their helmet that helps alot too.

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Riggins

Aikmen

Manley if he had been straight and clean, but drugs ended his career too early

Charles Mann would be a better option, and over Haley... but neither is HOF worthy

Green, hands down

Didier? he had a couple of very good years, but the most catches he ever had in a season was 36, better option... Jerry Smith... who would be a tie with Novacheck... but neither is HOF worthy

Butz was the dormant DT in the 70's and 80's that never got the credit or press Randy White did, though Butz was comparable if not better against the run

Lett isn't even worthy of a sniff at the pro-bowl

Aikman? Wow, i cant believe you pick Aikman over Theisman as a better football player.

Butz played 15 years and 1 pro bowl, Lett was in the pro bowl 2 and played 9 years.

And please do not put Butz anywhere near Randy White. Thats not even funny.

I am with you on Green over Sanders, but "hands down" :laugh:

I will consider the Riggins part a joke, even you cant really believe that. :laugh:

[M&W]

Riggins

Aikmen

Manley if he had been straight and clean, but drugs ended his career too early

Charles Mann would be a better option, and over Haley... but neither is HOF worthy

Green, hands down

Didier? he had a couple of very good years, but the most catches he ever had in a season was 36, better option... Jerry Smith... who would be a tie with Novacheck... but neither is HOF worthy

Butz was the dormant DT in the 70's and 80's that never got the credit or press Randy White did, though Butz was comparable if not better against the run

Lett isn't even worthy of a sniff at the pro-bowl

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's it, I'm conviced Bubba must be a very well-executed hoax by the mods on this forum.

No one in their right mind would take John effing Riggins over Emmitt Smith or Jerry Smith over Novacheck or Dexter Manley over Charles Haley.

And I KNOW you didnt compare Butz to White.... :doh: :laugh:

[HeHateMe]

Riggins over Emmitt immediately makes you lose all credibility Bubba.

If indeed you are serious, which I really can't beleive you are.

[IrishOrange15]

So semi dominant offensive linesmen can get in the HOF now ....Semi Dominant is that like a bit pregnant? Its funny i thought it was hall of fame for the best players of thier eara not hall of pretty-good-players-who-were-great-once.

Allen was dominant most of his career. It wasn't until 2002 that he became "semi-dominant." So a guy who can be dominant for about 7 years in the NFL at his position and be "semi-dominant" after that for 3 years or so, is a HOF'er.

He also wasn't a one trick pony early in his career. In fact, far from it. He could pull well and work out in space. In fact, he played both right tackle and left tackle and both guard spots and made the Pro Bowl at every position except for center.

He didn't start "cruising" until he injured his ankle in late 2001 with re-occuring bone spurs (I have them in my shoulder, and they well...suck really bad). He actually had a dominant 2004 campaign, but by 2005 teams started to figure out that he couldn't handle quicker DT's and slanting very well anymore and at that point, at age 35, he just lost the ability that he once had to fit into Parcells' blocking scheme.




YAKUZA

[jrockster21]

I preface this post by saying Allen is a clear-cut first ballot hall of famer. For shame, bubba...you of all people, a self-proclaimed "OLine expert," should know this.

Now, to trash another ridiculous post by M&W.


Art Monk is a classic example of production due to attrition.

And you are a classic example of a troll who posts straight up LIES to back up your arguments.


and averaged just over 52 catches a year for his career. He never caught more than 8 TDs in a season and averaged just a little over 4 TDs a year for his career.

Hmmm...where to start. Monk had 940 career receptions (first place all-time, before Rice broke his record late the same season AM was injured), and played for 16 seasons (INCLUDING the 3-game season in 1995).

What is 940 divided by 16? 58.75. Statistical inaccuracy number 1. Just for ****s and giggles, if you take out Monk's 3-game season in 95, he averaged 62.4 receptions a season...more on that later.

As far as TDs?? INCLUDING the 3-game season in 95 Art averaged 4.25 TDs a season on a run-first team. Irvin averaged 5.42 (LMAO at you calling this "almost 5 per season") TDs a season for 4 less. Wow, what a huge difference. Take out Monk's 3-game season and he averaged over 4.5 TDs a season.


To put this in perspective, Michael Irvin, who everyone here claims should not be in ahead of Monk, averaged over 68 catches a year for his career and almost 6 TDs a year.

Statistical inaccuracy number 2: Irvin had 750 career receptions over a 12-year career. What is 750 divided by 12? 62.5 - Exactly 0.1 more receptions per season than Monk, not including his 3-game season in 95.

But wait, you say, what about Irvin's 4-game season in 98? Okay, let's remove that as well. That gives Irvin 67.3 receptions per season. Still not leaps and bounds above Monk, as you seem to be implying.

And seeing as how you used "greater than 8-TD seasons" as the benchmark, how about what Irvin did? Irving got more than 8 TDs exactly twice. Wow...stone cold.

So, seeing as this is the SECOND time I've owned you on providing absolutely FALSE statistics, maybe you'll be a little more careful. Not like you had any credibility left after the first time.

[ArmchairRedskin]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's it, I'm conviced Bubba must be a very well-executed hoax by the mods on this forum.

No one in their right mind would take John effing Riggins over Emmitt Smith or Jerry Smith over Novacheck or Dexter Manley over Charles Haley.

And I KNOW you didnt compare Butz to White.... :doh: :laugh:




Dexter Manley played in 143 games and racked up 97.5 sacks. Haley played in 169 games and sacked the QB 100.5 times. You do the math.


Riggins was great because he was a work horse and came thru in the clutch. You needed a first down on a critical 4th? Riggins was your man. Not to take anything away from Emmitt, because he was great as well. I'm just saying you can't dismiss Riggins so easily.



Lemme also add a little Riggins trivia in for you here.

Did you know he was 34 when he broke the single season rushing record and hit the endzone 24 times? Even the following year at 35 he rushed more than 300 times and hit 1200 yards finding the endzone 14 times. Not too shabby, eh?

[M&W]

Riggins was great because he was a work horse and came thru in the clutch. You needed a first down on a critical 4th? Riggins was your man. Not to take anything away from Emmitt, because he was great as well. I'm just saying you can't dismiss Riggins so easily.

Sure I can. Riggins ran for 11,352 yards and 104 TDs in 15 seasons. Emmitt Smith ran for 18,355 yards and 164 TDs, also in 15 seasons.

It's not even close, and I mean that in a Dan Marino vs Craig Morton kind of way

[ArmchairRedskin]

Sure I can. Riggins ran for 11,352 yards and 104 TDs in 15 seasons. Emmitt Smith ran for 18,355 yards and 164 TDs, also in 15 seasons.

It's not even close, and I mean that in a Dan Marino vs Craig Morton kind of way



14 seasons, one of which was strike shortened. He sat out one season. I see you didn't touch the Manley/Haley comparison. Good choice. :thumbsup:



Also, Riggins played in 175 games compared to Emmitt's 226. That's 51 more games. :)

[TonyRomoProBowl]

Riggins over Emmitt immediately makes you lose all credibility Bubba.

If indeed you are serious, which I really can't beleive you are.


You see...that was my whole point of this. But i am with you HHM, he is pulling our chain for reaction, no doubt...I mean he has to be or else like yous said, all credibility would be squashed!!

Riggins over Emmitt was funny

Putting Dave Butz on par with White, is just not funny.

And I am there with D. Green, I just have so much respect for him, but hands down better then Dion Sanders....

I really am shocked he typed Aikman over Theisman....:laugh: Must have been hard for him.

[Siven]

14 seasons, one of which was strike shortened. He sat out one season. I see you didn't touch the Manley/Haley comparison. Good choice. :thumbsup:



Also, Riggins played in 175 games compared to Emmitt's 226. That's 51 more games. :)


wtfpwnd

[M&W]

14 seasons, one of which was strike shortened. He sat out one season. I see you didn't touch the Manley/Haley comparison. Good choice. :thumbsup:



Also, Riggins played in 175 games compared to Emmitt's 226. That's 51 more games. :)

Haley came back for 16 games in 1999 after 3 years of retirement and was 36 years old, you can't honestly count those games. He also played the last 21 games of his career with a herniated disk. Anyone who saw him play knows there is no comparison.

And let's assume that Riggins maintained his 64 YPG and .59 TD average for those 51 games, he would still only have roughly 14,660 yards and roughly 134 TDs

Emmitt Still wins by about 4 years worth of stats. Not close

[ArmchairRedskin]

Haley came back for 16 games in 1999 after 3 years of retirement and was 36 years old, you can't honestly count those games. He also played the last 21 games of his career with a herniated disk. Anyone who saw him play knows there is no comparison.

And let's assume that Riggins maintained his 64 YPG and .59 TD average for those 51 games, he would still only have roughly 14,660 yards and roughly 134 TDs

Emmitt Still wins by about 4 years worth of stats. Not close




Now you're making up excuses for Haley? Well Manley was an illiterate coke head. :laugh: You saying your boy aint better than somebody who couldn't even read? :laugh:


As to Riggins, he started his career with the NY Jets. They were god awful.


1975 NFL New York Jets 3-11-0
1974 NFL New York Jets 7-7-0
1973 NFL New York Jets 4-10-0
1972 NFL New York Jets 7-7-0
1971 NFL New York Jets 6-8-0


He joined the Skins in 1976.


Now, Emmitt, meanwhile, had a monster Oline in front of him and a pretty good supporting cast on offense most of his career.


You look at the stats without context, like you thought both played 15 equal seasons, and you might have a case. You put some context around the stats, like the fact that Riggins started out playing only 14 game seasons and the fact that he was on a really crappy team for his first 5 years, and the comparisons are less in Emmitt's favor.

You add in the little fact that I posted above about him setting the single season rushing record at age 34, (Emmitt rushed for 2 TD's and 500+ yards at 34 and only ever scored 25 TD's in a season) and you gotta agree that Riggins deserves more a lot more respect than your Marino/Craig Morton allusion earlier.

[jrockster21]

M&W - nothing on your completely FALSE Monk and Irvin statistics?? :doh:

[M&W]

Now you're making up excuses for Haley? Well Manley was an illiterate coke head. :laugh: You saying your boy aint better than somebody who couldn't even read? :laugh:


As to Riggins, he started his career with the NY Jets. They were god awful.


1975 NFL New York Jets 3-11-0
1974 NFL New York Jets 7-7-0
1973 NFL New York Jets 4-10-0
1972 NFL New York Jets 7-7-0
1971 NFL New York Jets 6-8-0


He joined the Skins in 1976.


Now, Emmitt, meanwhile, had a monster Oline in front of him and a pretty good supporting cast on offense most of his career.


You look at the stats without context, like you thought both played 15 equal seasons, and you might have a case. You put some context around the stats, like the fact that Riggins started out playing only 14 game seasons and the fact that he was on a really crappy team for his first 5 years, and the comparisons are less in Emmitt's favor.

You add in the little fact that I posted above about him setting the single season rushing record at age 34, (Emmitt rushed for 2 TD's and 500+ yards at 34 and only ever scored 25 TD's in a season) and you gotta agree that Riggins deserves more a lot more respect than your Marino/Craig Morton allusion earlier.

Emmitt played on teams with losing records 6 times in his last 8 seasons

[ArmchairRedskin]

Emmitt played on teams with losing records 6 times in his last 8 seasons


Quit making up excuses and tell me Riggins deserves some respect. He sure didn't deserve the Marino/Morton allusion. I think he woulda done pretty well had he started out his career behind a dominant OLine. Hell, he did pretty well as is.

[M&W]

Quit making up excuses and tell me Riggins deserves some respect. He sure didn't deserve the Marino/Morton allusion. I think he woulda done pretty well had he started out his career behind a dominant OLine. Hell, he did pretty well as is.

He's a HOFer, and deserves respect, but is not in the same stratosphere as Emmitt. The gap is so wide I can't believe I'm actually debating it

[jrockster21]

14 seasons, one of which was strike shortened. He sat out one season. I see you didn't touch the Manley/Haley comparison. Good choice. :thumbsup:

Damn, even more made up statistics.

[ArmchairRedskin]

He's a HOFer, and deserves respect, but is not in the same stratosphere as Emmitt. The gap is so wide I can't believe I'm actually debating it



It isn't as wide as you wanna believe. Maybe you don't remember seeing him run. He was the Jerome Bettis of his day. Mowing people down. You had to gang tackle him to bring him down. Emmitt was shifty, but he also had a lot of help up front. Riggins didn't have that luxury early on while his legs were still young. I mean it wasn't till his 6th year in the league till he was on a team with a winning record and I don't think those Skins had a dominant Oline like the ones the Cowboys had.

Either way, you can claim Emmitt was better and you have a pretty good case. I just take exception to the lack of respect he's been shown by some of you guys.



Edit: I see you're only 21 :laugh:


You're a stat warrior. You never seen the man run except maybe a highlight here or there.


I'd submit to you that Emmitt wasn't in Earl Campbell's stratosphere. As a runner, Emmitt was nowhere near as talented.

[jrockster21]

Edit: I see you're only 21 :laugh:

You're a stat warrior. You never seen the man run except maybe a highlight here or there.


He's a FALSE stat warrior. WTF? Do all of you bammas have me on ignore? :laugh:

[M&W]

I'd submit to you that Emmitt wasn't in Earl Campbell's stratosphere.

Go for it. You'd be sorely mistaken, but do whatever you wish.

You'd be better off picking Barry Sanders, Walter Payton or Jim Brown to make this argument, though

[ArmchairRedskin]

Go for it. You'd be sorely mistaken, but do whatever you wish.

You'd be better off picking Barry Sanders, Walter Payton or Jim Brown to make this argument, though



Ask anybody who watched Campbell run in his prime. He was flat out amazing. He was more talented than Emmitt. You can't judge every player by mere stats. Sometimes you gotta watch the games and see the players play.

[pjfootballer]

=M&WNo one in their right mind would take John effing Riggins over Emmitt Smith or Jerry Smith over Novacheck or Dexter Manley over Charles Haley.

And I KNOW you didnt compare Butz to White.... :doh: :laugh
NEVER say John Riggins and effin in the same sentence. :mad:

[pjfootballer]

Go for it. You'd be sorely mistaken, but do whatever you wish.

You'd be better off picking Barry Sanders, Walter Payton or Jim Brown to make this argument, though

It's not just about yards young Grasshopper. Seriously. Look at the Redskins America's game series for 1982. Riggins was unstopable. He still owns the record for most yards in 1 playoffs. Granted he had 4 games, but his heart and drive carried this team alot.

[pjfootballer]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

That's it, I'm conviced Bubba must be a very well-executed hoax by the mods on this forum.

No one in their right mind would take John effing Riggins over Emmitt Smith or Jerry Smith over Novacheck or Dexter Manley over Charles Haley.

And I KNOW you didnt compare Butz to White.... :doh: :laugh:

Jay Novacek
11 seasons 422 receptions 4,620 yards 11.3 ypcand 29 TD's. Best year 68 catches.

Jerry Smith
13 seasons 421 receptions 5,496 yards 13.1 ypc and 60 TD's. Best year 67 catches.

Pretty comparable actually. Novacek caught alot of passes in the field and Smith had a nose for the endzone

[pjfootballer]

Campbell ran over, around and through people. I think he could've been better than Jim Brown had he been able to play long enough. I always remember that game against the Rams at the Astrodome when he ran through their secondary. Or the Monday nighter against the Dolphins where he had 199 yards and 3 TD's.

[M&W]

Ask anybody who watched Campbell run in his prime. He was flat out amazing. He was more talented than Emmitt. You can't judge every player by mere stats. Sometimes you gotta watch the games and see the players play.

Randall Williams was more talented than Jerry Rice, what's your point?

[ArmchairRedskin]

Randall Williams was more talented than Jerry Rice, what's your point?



Who? Never heard of him. Got some highlights? Did he ever accomplish anything in this league? He ever have a bunch of coaches say that he was the one player in the league, regardless of postion, that they'd want on their team?


If you sit here and claim that as a RB, Emmitt Smith was better than Earl Campbell, you just haven't watched enough football to tell the difference.

I doubt you've seen much of Campbell, but really it doesn't matter to me. You just keep referring to your stats to make your argument while the rest of us who have seen these players play know that you're only fooling yourself.

[THEHEREAFTER]

no cowboy should make the HOF until monk gets in.


What sense does this make?

[Gilgamesh]

Who? Never heard of him. Got some highlights? Did he ever accomplish anything in this league? He ever have a bunch of coaches say that he was the one player in the league, regardless of postion, that they'd want on their team?


If you sit here and claim that as a RB, Emmitt Smith was better than Earl Campbell, you just haven't watched enough football to tell the difference.

I doubt you've seen much of Campbell, but really it doesn't matter to me. You just keep referring to your stats to make your argument while the rest of us who have seen these players play know that you're only fooling yourself.

To put it in perspective, he was 10 years old or so when Dallas won it's last Superbowl, and 4 years old when Emmit Smith was drafted. That's not a lot of firsthand football exposure, and NFL films can only make up for so much...

[ArmchairRedskin]

To put it in perspective, he was 10 years old or so when Dallas won it's last Superbowl, and 4 years old when Emmit Smith was drafted. That's not a lot of firsthand football exposure, and NFL films can only make up for so much...



Yeah, I understand that. But if he doesn't have any first hand knowledge of the players then how is gonna go around claiming to know that player A is better or more talented than player B? If you don't know then you shouldn't really put out an opinion on the matter.

Me, for instance, I've never seen Gayle Sayers or Jim Brown run except for in a handful of highlights. I couldn't tell you which of those two guys were better. I could look at stats and maybe the records of their respective teams and give some sort of generic opinion based on that, but I couldn't really tell you who was the better RB because I've never seen them over the course of a season or even over the course of a few games.


This all falls back to the comment of how Riggins isn't even in the same stratosphere as Emmitt. He really has no clue because I doubt he's ever seen Riggins run. All he has is a table with stats and maybe a few select highlights. No real perspective. I furthered that point with the Campbell/Emmitt comparison. He's never seen Campbell play, yet he gives an opinion. A mighty wrong opinion. He does mention Jim Brown and Payton, which tells me he can regurgitate other people's opinions.


Just don't run into a thread and make some half baked post about how it's ridiculous to compare to players when you really have no perspective on the matter.

[M&W]

Who? Never heard of him

Exactly

[ArmchairRedskin]

Exactly



So go on and tell me about how he's more talented than Rice. I'd love to know.

[M&W]

So go on and tell me about how he's more talented than Rice. I'd love to know.

4.28 in the 40 yard dash

9.2 in the 100 yard dash

47" vertical leap

Football, basketball, baseball, and track star, and could have easily gone pro in any of them

At one time or another in college, he played 9 different positions on the football field and was a two way starter for New Hampshire from day one as a freshman

Possibility the most all-around physically talented human being in the United States

[HeHateMe]

I really am shocked he typed Aikman over Theisman....:laugh: Must have been hard for him.

He obviously mistyped.

[Barney B]

And please do not put Butz anywhere near Randy White. Thats not even funny.


"You don't try to move a Dave Butz. What you try to do is influence him." - Tom Landry

Both Butz and White are on the all-80's team. Butz was better against the run (just ask Russ Grimm, who had plenty of success against Randy White), while White was the better pass rusher (except in '83, when Butz had 11 sacks).

Was White better overall? Probably. He definitely had a higher motor. But Butz was as dominant against the run as any tackle you'll ever see, and when properly motivated, was a monster pass rusher.

[MrFrank]

What sense does this make?

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense to me either. Monk making or not making the HOF has absolutely nothing to do with the Cowboys. It gets old hearing Redskins fans talk like this. I doubt Monk sits around blaming the Cowboys.

[ArmchairRedskin]

4.28 in the 40 yard dash

9.2 in the 100 yard dash

47" vertical leap

Football, basketball, baseball, and track star, and could have easily gone pro in any of them

At one time or another in college, he played 9 different positions on the football field and was a two way starter for New Hampshire from day one as a freshman

Possibility the most all-around physically talented human being in the United States



None of that makes him a better reciever than Jerry. He do anything at all in the NFL? I didn't think so. :laugh:


I compared two RB's both of which found success in the NFL. You compared a good athlete to one of the best receivers ever in the NFL.


You gotta up your game, chuckles.

[Gilgamesh]

Yeah, I understand that. But if he doesn't have any first hand knowledge of the players then how is gonna go around claiming to know that player A is better or more talented than player B? If you don't know then you shouldn't really put out an opinion on the matter.


Yes, I agree. I was trying to support that point.

[pjfootballer]

None of that makes him a better reciever than Jerry. He do anything at all in the NFL? I didn't think so. :laugh:


I compared two RB's both of which found success in the NFL. You compared a good athlete to one of the best receivers ever in the NFL.


You gotta up your game, chuckles.

He has nothing man. First he argued that Emmitt is a better player because he had more yards. Then he comes up with some jackass that we've never heard of and tries to compare him to Jerry Rice.

He uses stats to make a point, then says to you, stats don't matter. Which side is he on? What point is he trying to make?

To compare Riggins and Smith is doing an injustice to both players as it is to compare Walter Payton and Jim Brown. Different running styles, different offensive philosphies, different body makeup, etc. etc.

Smith is the best RB in history because he did break all the rushing records. But I agree with you that to diminish 11,000 yards and over 100 rushing TD's is foolish on his part. Cowboy fans complaing that we look at our players through B & G glasses, but his homerism is so far off the charts that it actually impedes him from understanding reality.

[M&W]

None of that makes him a better reciever than Jerry. He do anything at all in the NFL? I didn't think so. :laugh:

And thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day

:cool:

[M&W]

He has nothing man. First he argued that Emmitt is a better player because he had more yards. Then he comes up with some jackass that we've never heard of and tries to compare him to Jerry Rice.

He uses stats to make a point, then says to you, stats don't matter. Which side is he on? What point is he trying to make?

To compare Riggins and Smith is doing an injustice to both players as it is to compare Walter Payton and Jim Brown. Different running styles, different offensive philosphies, different body makeup, etc. etc.

Smith is the best RB in history because he did break all the rushing records. But I agree with you that to diminish 11,000 yards and over 100 rushing TD's is foolish on his part. Cowboy fans complaing that we look at our players through B & G glasses, but his homerism is so far off the charts that it actually impedes him from understanding reality.

I'll go slowly here:

He claimed that Earl Campbell was a better back because he was a more talented runner

I submitted the idea that if talent is what made one player superior to another, then Randall Williams would have been far better than Jerry Rice

However, that is not the case. Being more talented didnt make Williams a better receiver than Rice, and it didnt make Campbell a better back than Emmitt

[pjfootballer]

I'll go slowly here:

He claimed that Earl Campbell was a better back because he was a more talented runner

I submitted the idea that if talent is what made one player superior to another, then Randall Williams would have been far better than Jerry Rice

However, that is not the case. Being more talented didnt make Williams a better receiver than Rice, and it didnt make Campbell a better back than Emmitt

Let me go slower for you:

Here are the operative words highlighted in yellow. Randall DIDN't become better than Jerry Rice. Earl Campbell actually accomplished something in the NFL. You need to throw away the 18,000 yards argument and bring more to the table than he is the all time leading rusher, therefore he is the best.

No one in here is saying Emmitt wasn't a great back, we just don't agree that he's the greatest and to make you realize that you are diminishing the talents and accomplishments of other RB's, just because your favorite happens to own the rushing record.

[ArmchairRedskin]

And thank you for proving my point. Have a nice day

:cool:




:laugh:


Whoosh!!!

[ArmchairRedskin]

I'll go slowly here:

He claimed that Earl Campbell was a better back because he was a more talented runner

I submitted the idea that if talent is what made one player superior to another, then Randall Williams would have been far better than Jerry Rice

However, that is not the case. Being more talented didnt make Williams a better receiver than Rice, and it didnt make Campbell a better back than Emmitt



I claimed Earl is better because I've watched him run in the NFL and I happen to know that he's a better, and more talented RUNNING BACK than Emmitt Smith.

You brought up some schmuck from kalamazoo that has a bunch of good measurables and compared him to the best RECEIVER in the game. Your example wasn't even a receiver in the NFL, was he? Wasn't he a TE? Didn't play the same postition, yet you wanna claim he was a more talented RECEIVER than Jerry Rice?


No wonder you're a Cowboys fan. You don't have enough sense to know any better.

[DWinzit]

You brought up some schmuck from kalamazoo that has a bunch of good measurables and compared him to the best RECEIVER in the game.:laugh:
This must be the best receiver:
http://www.andrethegiant.com/images/pictures/a25.jpg
7'4" and 500 pounds, Andre the Giant! Wow what measurables ;)

[jrockster21]

I'll go slowly here:

He claimed that Earl Campbell was a better back because he was a more talented runner

I submitted the idea that if talent is what made one player superior to another, then Randall Williams would have been far better than Jerry Rice

However, that is not the case. Being more talented didnt make Williams a better receiver than Rice, and it didnt make Campbell a better back than Emmitt


You are confusing talent with physical attributes. The two are completely different.

[JoeSkins]

You are confusing talent with physical attributes. The two are completely different.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

[pjfootballer]

I'll probably get alot of flak from the Dallass fans about what I'm gonna say. But I can't hold it in any longer. IMO (yes, right or wrong) I feel that most of the Dallass offensive linemen from the early 90's to the early 2000's were not as skilled as the media made them out to be. I remember watching games of Newton, Gogan, Stepnoski, etc. just flat out "Sitting on" the defensive linemen. They would engage, cut them down and then sit on them. I contend that is a form of holding. Of course it would never be called, but I just wanted to get that out. I'm not downplaying their talents, just pointing out something I observed over the years of watching them.

[M&W]

I'll probably get alot of flak from the Dallass fans about what I'm gonna say. But I can't hold it in any longer. IMO (yes, right or wrong) I feel that most of the Dallass offensive linemen from the early 90's to the early 2000's were not as skilled as the media made them out to be. I remember watching games of Newton, Gogan, Stepnoski, etc. just flat out "Sitting on" the defensive linemen. They would engage, cut them down and then sit on them. I contend that is a form of holding. Of course it would never be called, but I just wanted to get that out. I'm not downplaying their talents, just pointing out something I observed over the years of watching them.

In that case, the "Hogs" were also not as good as advertised :doh:

[ArmchairRedskin]

In that case, the "Hogs" were also not as good as advertised :doh:


You never saw the Hogs. Stop yappin.

[BigDFan5]

I'll probably get alot of flak from the Dallass fans about what I'm gonna say. But I can't hold it in any longer. IMO (yes, right or wrong) I feel that most of the Dallass offensive linemen from the early 90's to the early 2000's were not as skilled as the media made them out to be. I remember watching games of Newton, Gogan, Stepnoski, etc. just flat out "Sitting on" the defensive linemen. They would engage, cut them down and then sit on them. I contend that is a form of holding. Of course it would never be called, but I just wanted to get that out. I'm not downplaying their talents, just pointing out something I observed over the years of watching them.


pancake blocks are good thats what you are supposed to do

[pjfootballer]

pancake blocks are good thats what you are supposed to do

Pancake block is when you knock a player on his ass, not sit on him.

[pjfootballer]

In that case, the "Hogs" were also not as good as advertised :doh:

Watch the 1982 America's game and then ask Randy White if the Hogs were any good.

[BigDFan5]

Pancake block is when you knock a player on his ass, not sit on him.

A pancake block is knocking the other player to the ground which is what you described , as for sitting on them its fun to make stuff up

[Peregrine]

Much like Monk, Larry Allen is HOF material.

[redsand521]

Much like Monk, Larry Allen is HOF material.

Yes, I agree.

[dallasfan]

Larry Allen is so good the Cowboys thought Kyle Kosier was a better fit last year.

And Art Monk was so good the redskins replaced him with Desmond Howard (see how stupid that sounds) I don't think anyone has claimed that Larry Allen is still playing at a HOF level, but from about 95-01 he was probably the best lineman in football.


I have absolutly no doubt that he will be in the HOF because he played with a star on his helmet for most of his career. But was he ever deserving of so much praise or was he simply on a good team at thier peek .

wow, your post reaks of haterism.


I think the OL is very difficult to acredit appropiate praise because it a unit effort not individual talent. While a good offensive line can make a bad quateback/running back better and exceptional QB/RB can also make the offesnsive line better .


Where was Allen to help out Troy Hambrick or Chad Hutchinson?.

Again, why ask about Allen after his prime.


He was a good OL and quite possibly the strongest ever to play the game not not the best offensive lineman. There were always questions about his work ethic and he had troubles with his weight often tuning up to camp late and overwight . He was on the 1995 SB team but was never a game changer and that was the end of the great Cboys teams of the 90s who had also won 2 of the previous 3 SB which gives you an idea of the overall talent. The drivers of that team were Irvin, Aikmen and Smith..... Allen was along for the ride.

I'll agree that he isn't the best lineman ever, but he's the best lineman of his era. And how many guards alone were game changers in NFL History?



Pro Bowls meen nothing now adays especially on the offensive line where Gourde got voted to this years probowl because he got name recognition nationwise because of the Haynesworth incedent

The pro-bowl always means nothing unless your a redskin right? What about All-pro teams where the media votes? Wait the probably means nothing too. How bout the number of players who openly attest to how great Allen was, no wait, it's only b/c he's a cowboy. I guess you're the supreme football knowledge.

[dallasfan]

And ya know what, I'll be the on to say, Will Shields played at a higher level longer, but wasn't the dominant player Allen was, and Roaf was even farther from Allen than shields. Both guards should be 1rst ballot guys, but Roaf isn't close to being one.

[Reic]

Larry Allen is in.

[mikeyf316]

First year, final six. Second year, in.

[D'Pablo]

Larry Allen deserves to be a first ballot hall-of-famer. That said, Russ Grimm and Joe Jacoby were better, and neither has been inducted into the HOF.

[Siven]

Larry Allen deserves to be a first ballot hall-of-famer. That said, Russ Grimm and Joe Jacoby were better, and neither has been inducted into the HOF.

retarded, isn't it. Larry Allen deserves to be in, 10 pro bowls, a ring, all decade, guy has all the credentials, you can't deny him.

Grimm and Jacoby deserve to be in.

As much as there is a clamoring by the media to get the Dallas players in, there is a lack of effort to get the 80's Skins players in.

[pjfootballer]

The pro-bowl always means nothing unless your a redskin right? What about All-pro teams where the media votes? Wait the probably means nothing too. How bout the number of players who openly attest to how great Allen was, no wait, it's only b/c he's a cowboy. I guess you're the supreme football knowledge.

The Pro Bowl is ALOT different today than back in the 80's. Players in the 80's got in for their play and not their name like most of the players of the 90's and 2000's.

Larry Allen was a great player, will get into the HOF and was probably the best guard in the 90's, but he's not 1st ballot IMO. See, even a Redskin fan can be unbiased. You have to remember, you are on a Redskins's web site and to expect anything less than homerism, is a grave mistake on your part.

And for the record, homerism aside, I think Grimm was a more dominant guard in his day than Allen was in his. I've seen both play. Grimm had better technique, Allen was more about strength and he also like to sit on people too, which in my estimation is a form of holding, but the league doesn't see it that way.