Who Would Win: Muhammad Ali vs. Chuck Liddell

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Two of the biggest starts their respective sports have ever seen. Granted Ali peaked when boxing peaked - Chuck is the face of the Martial Arts world these days. This is a street fight, and they are in their respective primes. But let's say during the course of it nobody is bitten, hit in the jewels, eye gouged, or sprayed with mace. Bare knuckled, who would be the victor?

Ali - 6'3" 230 lbs: What can't you say about this man? His confidence was awesome. His precision with his fists is right there with Roy Jones Jr. as the best in boxing history. Who would even want to attempt to go in head first to try to take him down? Four haymaking jabs in a second, tight overhand rights, wonderful counterpunching. The most devistating combo puncher the world has ever seen. And it's hard to argue he's not the best boxer of all time.

Liddell - 6'2" 205 lbs: Liddell (see signature) is one badass dude. A D1 wrestler in college, Liddell is well versed in submitting a guy by twisting arms, legs and choking them. His bread and butter are his kicks and punches. Opponents can stand there and trade with him, but put a mark in his win column. A jaw of steel, it takes more than a few suprising haymakers to even phase him. He has defended the UFC Light Heavyweight Championship 6 times in a row and is still going.

So would the larger and stronger Ali be able to fend off the smaller Liddell? Or would Liddell overwhelm him with his overall abilities?

* I believe in all fairness I'm not using an elite heavyweight fighter such as Fedor Emelianenko or Mirko Cro Cop. The advantage is clear. This doesn't mean they are better atheletes than Ali; Ali was arguably better at his sport than anybody has ever been in their own. They are just incredibly trained in many martial art styles that are hard to combat with just your fists.

[drums and skins]

a street fight? Lidell could get him to the ground and do his thing.

In a boxing ring, under boxing rules? No contest: ali.

[Chump Bailey]

Ali everytime no contest IMO...

Ali can take a punch from Chuck, who I am a fan of - but I doubt Chuck could handle a clean shot from Ali.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

I can't believe anyone would vote for Ali. That's criminally stupid.

[PokerPacker]

its not really a fair fight because you are taking ali out his environment and putting him where liddell thrives. that is a big home-field advantage.

[Spaceman Spiff]

its not really a fair fight because you are taking ali out his environment and putting him where liddell thrives. that is a big home-field advantage.

Or, as pointed out before, you're taking Liddell out of his element.

Either way, it's apples and oranges.

[909997]

ali was a streetz

ali and mike tyson were street fighters before they were boxers

liddell wont win

[.Guy.]

Is this a serious question? Ali would rape Liddell.

[scottie]

I would like to see Ali's sprawl.

[RonArtest15]

I think Ali/Tyson (in prime) would whoop Liddell even outside of the ring....Tyson for one, was a bad bad man back in the streets of BK. This is before he even had any sort of boxing training. I would hate to see what Tyson would do in an unstructured fighting environment. On that note, is there any record of Tyson or Ali getting their behinds whooped out of the ring? I know one man who tried to step to Tyson outside of the ring, and got his handed to him...I present:

Jamaica, Queens' finest...Mitch "Blood" Green

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/green0607.jpg

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

its not really a fair fight because you are taking ali out his environment and putting him where liddell thrives. that is a big home-field advantage.

Liddell is also giving up 25 pounds to the greatest heavyweight boxer of all time.

[Spaceman Spiff]

I think Ali/Tyson (in prime) would whoop Liddell even outside of the ring....Tyson for one, was a bad bad man back in the streets of BK. This is before he even had any sort of boxing training. I would hate to see what Tyson would do in an unstructured fighting environment. On that note, is there any record of Tyson or Ali getting their behinds whooped out of the ring? I know one man who tried to step to Tyson outside of the ring, and got his handed to him...I present:

Jamaica, Queens' finest...Mitch "Blood" Green

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/green0607.jpg

That dude had a legendary Jheri Curl.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I think Ali/Tyson (in prime) would whoop Liddell even outside of the ring....Tyson for one, was a bad bad man back in the streets of BK. This is before he even had any sort of boxing training. I would hate to see what Tyson would do in an unstructured fighting environment. On that note, is there any record of Tyson or Ali getting their behinds whooped out of the ring? I know one man who tried to step to Tyson outside of the ring, and got his handed to him...I present:

Jamaica, Queens' finest...Mitch "Blood" Green

http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/green0607.jpg

Did that guy ever train in any martial art? Including boxing? He probably did 200 pullups a day, lifted weights, and hit other people that have nothing but experience on the streets. I bet it took Tyson 1 minute to hurt that guy.

[No_Pressure]

I think the real question is who would win in a boxing match: Ali or Marciano?

[Chump Bailey]

I would like to see Chuck beef up and fight Arlovski...

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

It seems people might vote for Ali because they don't know Chuck. I advise you to at least youtube him and watch this man work. A true marvel. What would Ali do if after an exchange he clutched Ali and tripped him to the ground? Then grabbed his arm and hyperextended it with a move known as the armbar? Nothing, because he'd be done. I'd bet Ali would keep punching as hard as he could, which is lethal when fighting an incredibly seasoned UFC fighter.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Video of Chuck.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CblPX2envc

[dreamingwolf]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=CfxFxREojCo&mode=related&search=

Liddell isnt the best grappler out there, so Ali would probably fair better against Liddell that most other MMA guys. Still I would take a ballanced fighter with a MMA background over a pure boxer anyday.

[909997]

bruce lee...........

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

^^
Hm, I actually just watched that clip! Liddell is a wonderful grappler. He just has a better chance since he's the best kickboxer in the UFC - rather than staying on the ground with guys that practice jui jitsu way more. The way he gets up after being taken down is unbelievable. He knows his stuff down there. And fighting an inexperienced ground fighter would mean basic submissions would run through his mind.

[dreamingwolf]

^^
Hm, I actually just watched that clip! Liddell is a wonderful grappler. He just has a better chance since he's the best kickboxer in the UFC - rather than staying on the ground with guys that practice jui jitsu way more. The way he gets up after being taken down is unbelievable. He knows his stuff down there. And fighting an inexperienced ground fighter would mean basic submissions would run through his mind.

I dont think submissions ever run through liddells mind, to me it seems like he would rather let the guy stand up than wiggle arround on the ground to twist an arm or leg. When he does go to the ground with someone, its usually right after he just clocked them silly and hes down there just to sit on them while he re-arranges their face.

Im not saying hes a bad grappler, I just dont think focuses on it past sprawling and standing from gaurd. maybe Im wrong, and just havent seen enough of his fights.

[megared]

It seems people might vote for Ali because they don't know Chuck. I advise you to at least youtube him and watch this man work. A true marvel. What would Ali do if after an exchange he clutched Ali and tripped him to the ground? Then grabbed his arm and hyperextended it with a move known as the armbar? Nothing, because he'd be done. I'd bet Ali would keep punching as hard as he could, which is lethal when fighting an incredibly seasoned UFC fighter.

Nah, not buying it...UFC fighters don't exhibit much of anything resembling a jab...and Ali would've gone straight to his head everytime he tried to come inside. And if you're talking the pre-exile Ali (read his prime), his speed & conditioning would've been far too much, on top of being more powerful. You're also omitting that Ali has his place in HW lore for his chin himself...

[Mooka]

I find it hard to believe Chuck would get close enough to Ali to grab him. There is no ring and no one could corner Ali in a boxing ring anyway.

Ali would dance circles around Chuck, literally.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Nah, not buying it...UFC fighters don't exhibit much of anything resembling a jab...and Ali would've gone straight to his head everytime he tried to come inside. And if you're talking the pre-exile Ali (read his prime), his speed & conditioning would've been far too much, on top of being more powerful. You're also omitting that Ali has his place in HW lore for his chin himself...

It wasn't as much Ali's chin as it was his defense. But yes he could take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. I think Ali's weight is the biggest factor here. He was only 6'3 but the pure power in those 25 pounds Chuck gives may be an issue.

Jabs in the UFC don't hold much if the fighter has nothing else but other punches as weapons. Speed and conditioning? These guys are workout machines. And they workout in more of a sprinting fashion...as opposed to the marathon fashion boxers do. Perfect for quick, thin gloved/no gloved fights.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I find it hard to believe Chuck would get close enough to Ali to grab him. There is no ring and no one could corner Ali in a boxing ring anyway.

Ali would dance circles around Chuck, literally.

Not after Chuck whips 2 leg kicks the opposite direction Ali is dancing. Run in to 2 of those and you will slow down my friend.

[Jaded-Dragon]

Bare bones street fight? Liddell no contest. Submissions aside, Chucks kicks alone would win this fight, whether it be repeated leg kicks or a flush kick to the face. Sorry but Ali's jab won't help him much in that situation. Chuck is not a fabulous takedown kind of guy, so he doesn't have a need to eat a few jabs while trying to get inside. If he staggers Ali with a kick to the head, he will have all the time in the world to rush in and take him down.

[.Guy.]

I can't believe Liddell is winning in the poll :doh:. Some of you guys need to stop smoking those crack rocks. Watch some videos of Ali - the Thrilla in Manilla is the greatest boxing match in history. The great Ali wouldn't even let Liddell get close. One strait up jab to Liddell would cause him to lose his patience and tire himself out. Ali would win handily by using his mind games to mess with Liddell. Ali would just beat up on him and let him think he might have a chance. He would just keep him conscience long enough to keep pounding him. But seriously I can't believe you guys think some MMA fighter even has a chance, let alone win, against the greatest of all time.

[grhqofb5]

Back when Ali was champ, he actually fought a japanese wrestler under the conditions we're talking about here. Basically, the wrestler went around the ring for a few minutes kicking ali in the leg, Ali threw about 3 punches, and the fight was a complete stinker. Ali got a cut on his leg from all the kicks.


Added the video... This was really pathetic.
http://www.vsocial.com/video/?d=39466

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I can't believe Liddell is winning in the poll :doh:. Some of you guys need to stop smoking those crack rocks. Watch some videos of Ali - the Thrilla in Manilla is the greatest boxing match in history. The great Ali wouldn't even let Liddell get close. One strait up jab to Liddell would cause him to lose his patience and tire himself out. Ali would win handily by using his mind games to mess with Liddell. Ali would just beat up on him and let him think he might have a chance. He would just keep him conscience long enough to keep pounding him. But seriously I can't believe you guys think some MMA fighter even has a chance, let alone win, against the greatest of all time.

Do you think he could beat 26-1 Heavyweight Champion Fedor Emelianenko? 220 lbs and his only loss happened from getting cut on his face 17 seconds in to a match.

This isn't a boxing match. I've seen and studied the Thrilla so many times. It's on ESPN every freaking weekend. I've become numb to it. One jab to Liddell? O.K. Chuck has taken haymakers from some of the heaviest hands in the game...and a jab is gonna knock him down? He isn't Glass Joe from Punch Out! Christ. It'd be a great fight, but no jab is going to decide it. Liddell getting tired? That's also a laugher. This isn't a 15 round boxing match, it's a bare knuckle fight. There ain't no decision at the end. With these blows flying around someone will get knocked down.

[megared]

Do you think he could beat 26-1 Heavyweight Champion Fedor Emelianenko? 220 lbs and his only loss happened from getting cut on his face 17 seconds in to a match.

This isn't a boxing match. I've seen and studied the Thrilla so many times. It's on ESPN every freaking weekend. I've become numb to it. One jab to Liddell? O.K. Chuck has taken haymakers from some of the heaviest hands in the game...and a jab is gonna knock him down? He isn't Glass Joe from Punch Out! Christ. It'd be a great fight, but no jab is going to decide it. Liddell getting tired? That's also a laugher. This isn't a 15 round boxing match, it's a bare knuckle fight. There ain't no decision at the end. With these blows flying around someone will get knocked down.

The same conditions you describe would heavily favor Ali, so far as the thinner gloves that don't protect his opponent. He's fast as hell with boxing gloves, could you have imagined without?!

Ali's taken shots from Ernie Shavers, George Foreman, some of the heaviest hitters in HW history. He's had his jaw BROKEN and continued. Chuck would be too busy fending off jabs to come inside with all that foolishness. Ali in his prime was going anywhere he wanted in a ring, how exactly do you think Chuck could corner him? That aside, you can't reasonably tell me that he has the power of a, say Sonny Listen...

[.Guy.]

Do you think he could beat 26-1 Heavyweight Champion Fedor Emelianenko? 220 lbs and his only loss happened from getting cut on his face 17 seconds in to a match.

This isn't a boxing match. I've seen and studied the Thrilla so many times. It's on ESPN every freaking weekend. I've become numb to it. One jab to Liddell? O.K. Chuck has taken haymakers from some of the heaviest hands in the game...and a jab is gonna knock him down? He isn't Glass Joe from Punch Out! Christ. It'd be a great fight, but no jab is going to decide it. Liddell getting tired? That's also a laugher. This isn't a 15 round boxing match, it's a bare knuckle fight. There ain't no decision at the end. With these blows flying around someone will get knocked down.

You do remember, all (street) fights outside the ring do not involve grappling and holds. Its about who can punch faster harder and stronger. Liddell does not have a chance is ANY of those catagories. You are forgetting that Ali was the quickest HW of ALL TIME. This fight would not involve lying on the ground holding each other until one submits. This would be all out punches flying and Liddell has no chance. He wouldn't get near Ali and if you look at the competition Liddell faces it its really nothing compared to what Ali went against - Foreman, Frazier, Liston - all truly great boxers. When Ali was in his prime is when boxing was filled with most talented, strongest boxers ever. Ali was the greastest among greats. I would not hesitate to say of Liddell 26 wins, only 10 were against qaulity opponents. You are crazy to think anyone could take down Ali in his prime. Seriously, look at it. Ali was the best when boxing was in its peak, Liddell is the champ in a still growing sport that has not truly produced any greats. Its not even a question, Ali wins without a doubt - be it in in the ring, in an MMA ring, the backyard or in the alley. Ali would KILL Liddell.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

The same conditions you describe would heavily favor Ali, so far as the thinner gloves that don't protect his opponent. He's fast as hell with boxing gloves, could you have imagined without?!

Ali's taken shots from Ernie Shavers, George Foreman, some of the heaviest hitters in HW history. He's had his jaw BROKEN and continued. Chuck would be too busy fending off jabs to come inside with all that foolishness. Ali in his prime was going anywhere he wanted in a ring, how exactly do you think Chuck could corner him? That aside, you can't reasonably tell me that he has the power of a, say Sonny Listen...

You dismiss these other weapons as "foolishness" when they are in fact devistating. Just as people who have never been hit by a baseball or hit by a football player can't understand the pain involved...people misunderstand being kicked in the thigh and head. The only Clinch Ali knows is the one to buy himself time while someone hits him with NERF gloves so he can catch his breath. Chuck doesn't "corner" people. There is no ring in a street fight. There is no "ropadoping" either. Which was a great innovation by Ali, but would never work in the MMA world. Chuck is a counterpunching attack and avoid type of fighter. No way Ali could chase him down after an exchange. Chuck has a steel jaw. Nobody has ever put him to sleep and it's cuz Chuck knows when he's about to be knocked out and backs up. He's brilliant at this.

That fight with the Judo master posted a few posts ago is very telling. Whenever a fighter shakes off the crowd after being hit, you know it hurts. At the end, Ali was walking very gingerly after trying to do the shuffle earlier. The Judo fighter laid down like a wimp but he still made Ali jump on the ropes like a woman seeing a rat. I will always love Ali, but against Chuck he'd have himself a match...much less a world class heavyweight.

[f_trizzy]

Jamaica, Queens' finest...Mitch "Blood" Green:


http://www.cantstopthebleeding.com/img/green0607.jpg

"Chuck Liddell...hit...me. And like a sissy...a homo...he ran!"

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

You do remember, all (street) fights outside the ring do not involve grappling and holds. Its about who can punch faster harder and stronger. Liddell does not have a chance is ANY of those catagories. You are forgetting that Ali was the quickest HW of ALL TIME. This fight would not involve lying on the ground holding each other until one submits. This would be all out punches flying and Liddell has no chance. He wouldn't get near Ali and if you look at the competition Liddell faces it its really nothing compared to what Ali went against - Foreman, Frazier, Liston - all truly great boxers. When Ali was in his prime is when boxing was filled with most talented, strongest boxers ever. Ali was the greastest among greats. I would not hesitate to say of Liddell 26 wins, only 10 were against qaulity opponents. You are crazy to think anyone could take down Ali in his prime. Seriously, look at it. Ali was the best when boxing was in its peak, Liddell is the champ in a still growing sport that has not truly produced any greats. Its not even a question, Ali wins without a doubt - be it in in the ring, in an MMA ring, the backyard or in the alley. Ali would KILL Liddell.

Well, judging by your analysis, ALL street fights must be a standup punch fest. That's probably because you watch these little boys fighting each other online after school. Most MMA fighters will never waste their time fighting some schmuck who'd they destroy in the streets. That's why you never see it. Liddell is 20-3...he has defended his title against the #1 contender 6 times in a row...plus fighting grand prix tournaments which required more than 1 fight a night.

FEDOR (Heavyweight Champ) is 26-1. There is no way Ali could stand a chance against him. It'd be like an exhibition. Look, Ali may be the greatest athelete of all time...but he wasn't the greatest athelete in ALL-AROUND fighting. Using your fists only is like only using your side arm in a fight against people with assault rifles. You may be the best handgun shooter ever...but you aren't going to beat a Navy Seal using a gun with "more options".

[#98QBKiller]

* I believe in all fairness I'm not using an elite heavyweight fighter such as Fedor Emelianenko or Mirko Cro Cop.



Fedor Emelianenko is my all-time favorite fighter...man that dude is bad. Can anyone stop him? I know he lost one fight because he was bleeding too much above his eye, but I haven't really been keeping up with UFC or Pride lately.

[.Guy.]

Well, judging by your analysis, ALL street fights must be a standup punch fest. That's probably because you watch these little boys fighting each other online after school. Most MMA fighters will never waste their time fighting some schmuck who'd they destroy in the streets. That's why you never see it. Liddell is 20-3...he has defended his title against the #1 contender 6 times in a row...plus fighting grand prix tournaments which required more than 1 fight a night.

FEDOR (Heavyweight Champ) is 26-1. There is no way Ali could stand a chance against him. It'd be like an exhibition. Look, Ali may be the greatest athelete of all time...but he wasn't the greatest athelete in ALL-AROUND fighting. Using your fists only is like only using your side arm in a fight against people with assault rifles. You may be the best handgun shooter ever...but you aren't going to beat a Navy Seal using a gun with "more options".

The fact of the matter is, in Ali's prime, no one was better. Ali was the fastest, strongest and smartest boxer of all time. Liddell, is a good MMA fighter. How can you possibly think he has a chance. The only thing Liddell excels over Ali is in the fact that he has practice in grappling. But this skill would be uselss as Ali wound not let him get close enough to excercise it. Even if he were to get a grip on Ali, it would be useless, as Ali is MUCH stronger than Liddell. Liddell would be begging for mercy within 4 minutes.

[#98QBKiller]

The fact of the matter is, in Ali's prime, no one was better. Ali was the fastest, strongest and smartest boxer of all time. Liddell, is a good MMA fighter. How can you possibly think he has a chance. The only thing Liddell excels over Ali is in the fact that he has practice in grappling. But this skill would be uselss as Ali wound not let him get close enough to excercise it. Even if he were to get a grip on Ali, it would be useless, as Ali is MUCH stronger than Liddell. Liddell would be begging for mercy within 4 minutes.



Except Liddell kicks like a mule and his legs would be longer than Ali's arms which puts Ali at a big-time disadvantage.

[f_trizzy]

Fedor Emelianenko is my all-time favorite fighter...man that dude is bad. Can anyone stop him? I know he lost one fight because he was bleeding too much above his eye, but I haven't really been keeping up with UFC or Pride lately.
He beat Matt Lindland this past weekend during a BodogFight event. Lindland was giving up like 30 lbs to him though. I didn't see the fight but read Lindland almost took him down but Fedor kept holding the ropes. He eventually put Matt away with an armbar.

[.Guy.]

Except Liddell kicks like a mule and his legs would be longer than Ali's arms which puts Ali at a big-time disadvantage.

He wouldn't get close enough to kick. Ali reach > Liddels Kick

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

The fact of the matter is, in Ali's prime, no one was better. Ali was the fastest, strongest and smartest boxer of all time. Liddell, is a good MMA fighter. How can you possibly think he has a chance. The only thing Liddell excels over Ali is in the fact that he has practice in grappling. But this skill would be uselss as Ali wound not let him get close enough to excercise it. Even if he were to get a grip on Ali, it would be useless, as Ali is MUCH stronger than Liddell. Liddell would be begging for mercy within 4 minutes.

Strength isn't much of a factor if you don't know how to utilize momentum and balance. Chuck knows exactly how to put people on the ground when he has them confused. Not much strength involved most of the time...just keeping the opponent off balance. Once again, this isn't a boxing match. One mistake and you're in trouble. Chuck's awareness and judgment is pinnacle. In that video of the Judo master fighting Ali...The ref stops an easy opportunity for the master to pull a kneebar. Ali's leg was limp in between the guy's legs and the ref dove on him so he didn't hurt America's hero. I don't blame him at all. That would have done ligament damage.

This isn't a pitty patty boxing match. Being in the pocket for more than a second is risky in a bare knuckle/MMA fight. Being in the pocket in boxing isn't extremely risky at all with those gloves on. Ali would be in Chuck's territory.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

He wouldn't get close enough to kick. Ali reach > Liddels Kick

WHAT???? 6'3" to 6'2. Chuck has abnormally long arms. I don't know the reach difference, but a few inches never WON anybody a fight. Matt Serra just beat Georges St. Pierre while giving up 5" in reach. It doesn't really matter when it's 1 and done.

[.Guy.]

Strength isn't much of a factor if you don't know how to utilize momentum and balance. Chuck knows exactly how to put people on the ground when he has them confused. Not much strength involved most of the time...just keeping the opponent off balance. Once again, this isn't a boxing match. One mistake and you're in trouble. Chuck's awareness and judgment is pinnacle. In that video of the Judo master fighting Ali...The ref stops an easy opportunity for the master to pull a kneebar. Ali's leg was limp in between the guy's legs and the ref dove on him so he didn't hurt America's hero. I don't blame him at all. That would have done ligament damage.

This isn't a pitty patty boxing match. Being in the pocket for more than a second is risky in a bare knuckle/MMA fight. Being in the pocket in boxing isn't extremely risky at all with those gloves on. Ali would be in Chuck's territory.

Your talking of Ali as he is some journey man boxer has never won anything. Your trying to say Ali doesn't know what balance is. Ali was the master of balace and strength. That judo match wasn't even legit. Ali had boxing gloves and was in a ring, how can you compare to that a street fight. You keep forgetting Ali was the greatest boxer ever... you don't get that acknowldgement without having skills. Ali knew exactly what to do get a win. I can't fathom how you think Liddell would come out on top.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Your talking of Ali as he is some journey man boxer has never won anything. Your trying to say Ali doesn't know what balance is. Ali was the master of balace and strength. That judo match wasn't even legit. Ali had boxing gloves and was in a ring, how can you compare to that a street fight. You keep forgetting Ali was the greatest boxer ever... you don't get that acknowldgement without having skills. Ali knew exactly what to do get a win. I can't fathom how you think Liddell would come out on top.

I respect your opinion and you are right. Ali is the master of balance with fist fighting. And while he didn't land one punch against the Judo guy, it may have been a different story if both of them were allowed to punch. I don't think the Judo guy was allowed to strike. Didn't look like it anyway. Slapped some kicks in there to stop him from shuffling. Looked a little gingerly at the end there. But in reality I made this poll because it'd be an incredibly interesting fight. Who knows what would happen. Ali rules, and I will look up to him for life. But same goes for Liddell.

[.Guy.]

I respect your opinion and you are right. Ali is the master of balance with fist fighting. And while he didn't land one punch against the Judo guy, it may have been a different story if both of them were allowed to punch. I don't think the Judo guy was allowed to strike. Didn't look like it anyway. Slapped some kicks in there to stop him from shuffling. Looked a little gingerly at the end there. But in reality I made this poll because it'd be an incredibly interesting fight. Who knows what would happen. Ali rules, and I will look up to him for life. But same goes for Liddell.

So the conclusion is thats there is no way to determine the winner. They have such different styles that there is no way to tell who would come out on top. Well, anyways, if you have half a brain, its gotta be Ali :silly:. I don't know, I was raised to love Ali and I am a huge huge fan. It's blashphemy for me to consider him losing in anything. I have to meet the man before I die.

----

Oh and btw, my sig is better :laugh:

[Pedro]

An MMA punch and boxing punch are two different things. Boxers punch harder for a reason, that being they plant their feet. Plant your feet against someone who can kick (and there are no rules against knee kicks) and your knee is gonna pop before you get into hand range.

Both guys would have a puncher's chance. Both guys would also have mashed up hands because they cannot stand up to the impact of hitting someones head as hard as these guys do (they may aim for the jaw but hit a forehead with your bare knuckles and see what I mean). Any guy with half decent ground skills who is big enough to not be thrown around by Ali would beat him if they can grab him before taking a shot. Any guy taking a bare knuckle Ali punch to the jaw will go down.

On any given Sunday...

That being said your average Joe in the street would be better in steet fights if he were trained in ground fighting than boxing. MMA shows us you can be rubbish in stand up and still win, but you have to be at least competent on the ground to win consistently.

Knowledge > skill (unless luck takes a hand)

[ChampSkinsFanatic]

Rickson Gracie would beat both of them, Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the best fighting style. Anybody who considers themself a true fighter has to have some form of Gracie Jiu Jitsu in his or her arsenal. All that boxing I learned is nothing against martial arts, even though I love Ali I say the Liddel dude wins because he probably has some form of Gracie's Jiu Jitsu. Boxing wise Ali would kill him. All this MMA is starting to make boxing look stupid.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Rickson Gracie would beat both of them, Gracie Jiu Jitsu is the best fighting style. Anybody who considers themself a true fighter has to have some form of Gracie Jiu Jitsu in his or her arsenal. All that boxing I learned is nothing against martial arts, even though I love Ali I say the Liddel dude wins because he probably has some form of Gracie's Jiu Jitsu. Boxing wise Ali would kill him. All this MMA is starting to make boxing look stupid.

Like I said in the MMA thread, Rickson was the fairy tale of the Gracie family. The Gracies were always full of themselves until they got their asses handed to them. Rickson only faught in other grappling tournaments when he was compiling his oh-so-sacred record. Jiu Jitsu is an artform that requires the fighter to get past the standup first. Kickboxing is the most common form of fighting among elite fighters in MMA. Granted, Jiu Jitsu is an extremely important fascet of fighting, it shouldn't be deemed "the best fighting style." Rickson was also a middleweight. Which is around the 160 mark. I'd love to see him get in the ring with Anderson Silva, the middleweight champ of the world. Silva would make Rickson's ego crawl back to Rio De Jinero.

And another thing. The reason the Gracies had a lot of success during that time period was because Jiu Jitsu was a new artform that only they knew. They are brilliant for coming up with it, but the secret is out. And it's been out for a while now.

As far as Chuck's Jiu Jitsu. It's there, he just uses it to combat a takedown. His sprawl is one of the best ever, and he's popped right up from guys that have decades of Jiu Jitsu training. His amazing knack for being able to do this would mean trouble for anybody that doesn't know the science of grappling.

[Chump Bailey]

To me, it all boils down to the following:

Chuck's forte is standing up and going for the knock-out while trading blows. That is his style and that is what he prefers. The guy is an awesome fighter without question and I have seen several of his fights.

But, Chuck is going to be able to exchange blows with Ali? Ali has taken punches from Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Joe Frazier - he couldn't take a punch from Chuck? Come on...

Hypotheticals aside, kicks, martial arts and the like - this will start and end with each fighter squaring off and trading punches - IMO.

Winner Ali...

[afparent]

I'll let you guys debate who will win, but please, please, do not put Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson in the same class!!! It is an insult to the Greatest of All Time!!!

[Destino]

If it was fought under MMA rules... Ali wouldn't stand a chance. Lesser fighter then Liddell would be able to beat an Ali. The problem isn't Ali being a bad fighter the problem is that all his tricks would be useless. Fighting boxers is done simply by taking them down and then pounding on the ground where they have no experience or training to defend themselves.

if you think Ali would dance around all day you're nuts. MMA fighter train to counter that. The only way to avoid a take down is to train to do so, I seriously doubt Ali trained daily to avoid take downs.

[Destino]

But, Chuck is going to be able to exchange blows with Ali? Ali has taken punches from Sonny Liston, George Foreman and Joe Frazier - he couldn't take a punch from Chuck? Come on...


"taking a punch" is entirely different when the gloves gone and any sign of hurt triggers a whirlwind of kicks and knees.

[megared]

If it was fought under MMA rules... Ali wouldn't stand a chance. Lesser fighter then Liddell would be able to beat an Ali. The problem isn't Ali being a bad fighter the problem is that all his tricks would be useless. Fighting boxers is done simply by taking them down and then pounding on the ground where they have no experience or training to defend themselves.

if you think Ali would dance around all day you're nuts. MMA fighter train to counter that. The only way to avoid a take down is to train to do so, I seriously doubt Ali trained daily to avoid take downs.

I don't see how you could say Ali wouldn't stand a chance...he was bigger, stronger, and quicker than Liddell ever has been.

Great boxers have an advantage in close quarters while fighting. How would Chuck go about getting a good grip on Ali, a guy whose clinched and held his own against people like Foreman physically? Liddell would get pushed at least 3 steps back everytime he tried to come inside to grapple...and that'd be only *if* Ali wanted the contact. MMA fighters don't use the jab or body shots nearly as much as boxers, and you're talking about the greatest...someone that took out smaller opponents just by keeping them in the range of his jab. The best combination puncher HW boxing's ever seen. Boxers' arms & footwork go south after a couple of rounds of body shots...do you think Lidell would really have the energy to go after Ali? Really?

Ali can throw his fists a whole lot more quickly than Lidell could position his body. You're acting like Lidell's hands are even half as good as Ali's...he'd have to immediately go for the takedowns, because he doesn't stand a chance throwing hands. Before Ali's exile, he wasn't even taking head shots, his speed was unparalleled...far before the rope-a-dope, he didn't have to square up and exchange blows, his footwork made him a supreme boxer.

[Pedro]

Ali wouldn't have footwork as an advantage. In a street fight against any number of the thousands of people who can kick properly the first hit to land would be a kick on the knee. Dislocated knee so assuming he can handle the pain he's restricted to hopping. Second hit takes out the other knee and we have a winner.

Remember Ali was a boxer so to throw a punch he has weight on his knees and the same to avoid one. Against someone with a good kick (in a street fight where knee kicks aren't banned like they are in MMA) your front leg has to be raised when kicked or you're out of the fight.

If Ali learnt how to MMA punch (i.e. not have planted feet 'cos in an MMA fight it's too dangerous) you would see his punches lacking the snap, speed and power in comparison to his boxing punches. All about the planted feet.

[jrockster21]

I can't believe anyone would vote for Ali. That's criminally stupid.

:laugh: Have you ever seen Ali fight?

Ali would whoop Lidell into paste.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

:laugh: Have you ever seen Ali fight?

Ali would whoop Lidell into paste.I completely stand by my original comment, there are just a lot more stupid people than I would have assumed. To answer your question, yes, I have seen most of Ali's fights. I would never begin to question that he is the best boxer to ever live. However, this isn't boxing, and anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that Ali wouldn't have a chance. It's not because he doesn't have the strength, quickness, or even natural ability to defeat an MMA'er, but simply because he doesn't have the training. This wouldn't even be a fight, it would consist of a takedown, a lock and a submission.

[jrockster21]

I completely stand by my original comment, there are just a lot more stupid people than I would have assumed. To answer your question, yes, I have seen most of Ali's fights. I would never begin to question that he is the best boxer to ever live. However, this isn't boxing, and anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that Ali wouldn't have a chance. It's not because he doesn't have the strength, quickness, or even natural ability to defeat an MMA'er, but simply because he doesn't have the training. This wouldn't even be a fight, it would consist of a takedown, a lock and a submission.

Why do you assume Ali would not be able to handle himself? He was a professionally trained fighter, and a smart man. It would be a more than fair fight, and Ali would come out on top, IMO.

PS - its not stupid to have an opinion, bro.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Why do you assume Ali would not be able to handle himself? He was a professionally trained BOXER, and a smart man. It would be a more than fair fight, and Ali would come out on top, IMO.I edited you post for accuracy.

[Chachie]

I can't believe anyone would vote for Ali. That's criminally stupid.


I can't believe how anyone would vote for Liddell. Your sig is criminally AWESOME. :)


Edit- If Chuck is allowed to use all MMA strikes/ground styles and not wear boxing gloves while Ali is forced only to box with big, puffy gloves then there is a decided advantage for Chuck as they climb into the ring.

That is, assuming Chuck can dodge the first punch. If not, he's going sleepy time.

[Jumbo]

Something Lloyd: "...a lot more stupid people than I assumed..."

Well-spoken; your intellect shines. :no:

jrock, I agree with your post. Although, I was also taught was that while “everyone has an opinion”, there are informed and ignorant versions. Which of those two categories someone’s opinion fits in depends on their level of knowledge, experience, and judgment to form it, and the ability to then articulate it. I find that lesson holds particularly true every time I read this forum :) . In this thread, it seems that many of the answers came from people who watch TV (and no doubt play videos) or, at best, maybe play at local dojo competitions, but have little connection with actual fighting beyond opinionating. Or maybe someone here has little experience in a few bouts or a couple “street fights” (bar fights are better :D ) and are just too dumb to extrapolate properly, especially about people competing at skilled levels. If not, someone will probably at least pretend they do in rebuttal. :laugh:

This is one of those times where the ignorant-but-loudly-opinionated are calling the ones with the right answer "stupid.” I always find that amusing--in a wry way--when I see it. At the mid-to-higher skill levels, professional boxers will almost (barring flukes) always simply devastate any other kind of equivalent-level MA, rules aside. Unless it's an ambush or the fight takes place in a closet :silly: .

In particular, pitting Ali in against Liddell (with all due and earned respect to Chuck) is so laughable to anyone with a brain that it set the tone for my post. In closing, I’d add: Something (I forget) Lloyd—you are paricualrly prominent in this thread for your commitment to ignorance in this matter (“anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that Ali wouldn't have a chance” ) combined with your fervor in slamming those more aware than you :applause: . I’m tempted to edit your “In the Know” location for accuracy ;) . But your sig makes up for so much, I’m gonna pass. :D

(j/k about the edit thing) :cheers:

[Jumbo]

Chachie gets the "informed" award. :laugh:

[jrockster21]

jrock, I agree with your post.

I'm saving this so I can fondly remember this moment forever. :)

[herrmag]

There's a reason why boxers never make a name for themselves in MMA (they always lose with no ground game). Ali was great, but I don't think he'd have a chance in a bare-knuckled (or MMA-gloved) fight under the UFC/PRIDE rules. Having the ability to use 4 limbs to beat on your opponent shouldn't be overlooked, and there is wrestling involved. If you don't think that a wrestler could take down a boxer with ease then you're kidding yourself. Ali could obviously knock Lidell out with one punch, but it wouldn't surprise me if Lidell could do the same. Just because Chuck likes to stand and trade with his opponent doesn't mean that he has to.

EDIT: Doh, and I guess I failed to even begin talking about groundwork/sub's/etc.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

Something Lloyd: "...a lot more stupid people than I assumed..."

Well-spoken; your intellect shines. :no:

jrock, I agree with your post. Although, I was also taught was that while “everyone has an opinion”, there are informed and ignorant versions. Which of those two categories someone’s opinion fits in depends on their level of knowledge, experience, and judgment to form it, and the ability to then articulate it. I find that lesson holds particularly true every time I read this forum :) . In this thread, it seems that many of the answers came from people who watch TV (and no doubt play videos) or, at best, maybe play at local dojo competitions, but have little connection with actual fighting beyond opinionating. Or maybe someone here has little experience in a few bouts or a couple “street fights” (bar fights are better :D ) and are just too dumb to extrapolate properly, especially about people competing at skilled levels. If not, someone will probably at least pretend they do in rebuttal. :laugh:

This is one of those times where the ignorant-but-loudly-opinionated are calling the ones with the right answer "stupid.” I always find that amusing--in a wry way--when I see it. At the mid-to-higher skill levels, professional boxers will almost (barring flukes) always simply devastate any other kind of equivalent-level MA, rules aside. Unless it's an ambush or the fight takes place in a closet :silly: .

In particular, pitting Ali in against Liddell (with all due and earned respect to Chuck) is so laughable to anyone with a brain that it set the tone for my post. In closing, I’d add: Something (I forget) Lloyd—you are paricualrly prominent in this thread for your commitment to ignorance in this matter (“anyone who knows anything about fighting knows that Ali wouldn't have a chance” ) combined with your fervor in slamming those more aware than you :applause: . I’m tempted to edit your “In the Know” location for accuracy ;) . But your sig makes up for so much, I’m gonna pass. :D

(j/k about the edit thing) :cheers:That's just stupid. :D You really didn't say anything to prove that you're right either, Jumbo. In fact, you didn't really address it at all. And for the record, I do know a lot about this subject. I am not just some schlub who has watched it on TV. I have studied various martial arts. I realize my original comment lacked any substance and was suprised nobody responded earlier, but in my subsequent post I at least outlined why I think what I think and provided some foundation for it. I am really adamant about this subject and let that get the better of me, but if you watch that clip of the useless Japanese wrestler, even HE was able to get in some good shots. While I don't think Lidell would employ the same Fall on Back technique, his strategy would be similar. In the end, grappling techniques completely negate the effectiveness of Ali's power and long arms. Winner: Lidell.

[Fan since a Fetus]

James "the Grim Reaper" Roper could take them all out. I would even go as far as to say that Irish Terry Conklin could lay the smack down on both Ali and Lidell!!

[Jumbo]

There's a reason why boxers never make a name for themselves in MMA. Ali was great, but I don't think he'd have a chance in a bare-knuckled (or MMA-gloved) fight under the UFC/PRIDE rules. Having not only the ability to use 4 limbs to beat on your opponent with, there is wrestling involved, and if you don't think that an ex-collegiate wrestler could take down a boxer with ease then you're kidding yourself. Ali could obviously knock Lidell out with one punch, but it wouldn't surprise me if Lidell could do the same. Just because Chuck likes to stand and trade with his opponent doesn't mean that he has to.


Just for the record, if you don't think I (or anybody able to dress themselves :D ) wouldn't know or consider the points you made prior to stating a contrary opinion, you're not thinking, my good friend. ;)

So no problemo with reasonable disagreement (informed or not), but I stand by my previous comments with other types. On the wrestler thing, not to get into specifics too much, but yes if a wrestler can get to boxer’s legs before he dances back and hits the guy on the back of the head/neck harder than he has even been hit, well maybe, but on the way down the wrestler is going to get peppered with a number of hard short punches and be dealing with a body that has also trained for strength and endurance (wind). Remember I’m speaking at mid-to top level skill here for each participant, and that’s an important point.

One big difference is the value in training where you constantly get hit and hit someone else as a regular deal. Even in MMA the actual contact during training is less than that of boxing. At the higher skill levels, that counts quite a bit. But fwiw, I would pick a pure wrestler as the most effective MA next to a boxer, and where there is little room for maneuverability, the most dangerous (as in my "closet" comment earlier).

BTW hermagg, I'd turn one point around on you: the boxers that "never make a name for themselves" or boxers who couldn't make it in boxing. There are a number of reasons I keep using the phrase mid-to-top level equality as a qualifier. In fact, if any MMA guys could become good enough to compete in boxing, he would. There is much more money in boxing.

[Jumbo]

That's just stupid. :D You really didn't say anything to prove that you're right either, Jumbo. In fact, you didn't really address it at all. And for the record, I do know a lot about this subject. I am not just some schlub who has watched it on TV. I have studied various martial arts. I realize my original comment lacked any substance and was suprised nobody responded earlier, but in my subsequent post I at least outlined why I think what I think and provided some foundation for it. I am really adamant about this subject and let that get the better of me, but if you watch that clip of the useless Japanese wrestler, even HE was able to get in some good shots. While I don't think Lidell would employ the same Fall on Back technique, his strategy would be similar. In the end, grappling techniques completely negate the effectiveness of Ali's power and long arms. Winner: Lidell.

My friend, if you read my post carefully, you'll see that I anticipated every single aspect of this response and already addressed it. You just have to read carefully and think ;) . I just want you to understand that, so you know why I'm not addressing your points here again.

I knew what you'd say, including listing "credentials" for your opinion (something I deliberately and wishfully obviously resisted and still will) and addressed it. That you disagree is fine and absolutely cool, though I still stand on my criticisms of your calling others are stupid when you're the one with the weaker, or at least (to be more kind) eminently debatable position.

I'd wager if you really knew any current experts, or really had real-world experience at a higher level you'd opime at least somewhat differently. Off camera, not one of them would tell you in a ring with Ali (or Hagler, Leonard, Frazier, Mancicn, etc.) would they have much of a chance. Remember, all my comments are not addressed to anything other than mid-to-top skill levels and by mid I mean middle of the pro ranks in major organizations. Again, I don't expect or care to change minds, I juts stand exactly on what I said. :)

[Jaded-Dragon]

Ok, this whole Ali vs Liddell thing aside. Let me ask you this... Why is it that no top MMA'er comes into the ring and straight boxes? Because they would get destroyed, that's why. Sure, you occasionally get your slug fest like Forest vs Bonnar, but for the most part, guys that are just "one thing" (ie Wrestler, boxer, jiu jitsu, etc.) get owned.

Did everybody miss the Hughes vs Royce fight? Royce got owned, why? Because he's just a Jiu Jitsu guy. Have you seen Tank abbot around lately? Why not? Because he is nothing but a brawler.

The fact that some of you are insinuating that Ali's punch reach is > chuck's kick reach is astounding. Do you know a lot of people with longer arms than legs? Do they happen to be an orangutan?

I'm not playing down ali's skill in a boxing ring, with boxing gloves, with boxing rules. I'm actually an Ali fan and I do consider him the best boxer ever. In a straight boxing match? Yes, Ali wins hands down no contest. In a MMA enviroment or street fight, Liddell owns him.

[Jumbo]

Ok--while Jaded Dragon gets a little closer to the truth as I know it, let me say this about the leg-reach thing vs. arm-reach: throw it out in a street fight or in an Ali-Liddell match

Lee himself (and all covert-ops/SS/LE type training) taught that in real life you don't kick above groin unless you just know you're in charge and want to show off (while still risking it all). All that stuff is for show and entertainment. You really only want to go for instep or knee, even the groin being a last resort because every time you take one foot off the ground, and the higher you take it, you give away your balance and ability to remain upright and you give away your ability to shift as quick or use your other limb as effectively simultaneously. You kick waist-level or higher at a comparable boxer and even if you're super fast he will just lean back and then dart in and knock you on your ass. You kick his shin and he’ll outmaneuver your hand-guard and beat your ass.

And the power of a strike from a pro boxer is way harder (it's been measured at the U of W) than the handblows of pro MA experts. If the boxer knows you're going to try to kick, he’s just going to guard for it and wait for you to do it and move in and chop you up. If you go down for a grapple or clench, just does happen in the boxing ring, you'll have a chance, but like I said, the back of your neck, top of your head, and sides of your face and ribs and kidneys being peppered by a quality boxer is a powerful experience, but there is a slight possibility you can get an edge there.

But not in Liddell vs. Ali. :laugh:

Gotta go to work guys, have fun :cheers:

[Dan T.]

I think Ali takes him. Course he's like, what, 65 years old? So that's not a sure thing.

[megared]

That's just stupid. :D You really didn't say anything to prove that you're right either, Jumbo. In fact, you didn't really address it at all. And for the record, I do know a lot about this subject. I am not just some schlub who has watched it on TV. I have studied various martial arts. I realize my original comment lacked any substance and was suprised nobody responded earlier, but in my subsequent post I at least outlined why I think what I think and provided some foundation for it. I am really adamant about this subject and let that get the better of me, but if you watch that clip of the useless Japanese wrestler, even HE was able to get in some good shots. While I don't think Lidell would employ the same Fall on Back technique, his strategy would be similar. In the end, grappling techniques completely negate the effectiveness of Ali's power and long arms. Winner: Lidell.

Thing is, Lidell's grappling techniques have been negated by other opponents' long arms and power. Randy Couture? Rampage Jackson? These are guys with backgrounds in boxing that gave MMA fighters problems. Butterbean, Marcus Davis, Jeremy Williams were mediocre pro boxers that are getting MMA wins...can you imagine the elite boxers stepping over into that realm?

If you put 4 oz gloves on Ali, instead of 20 oz gloves he normally uses, not only is he going to have greater handspeed, but he's going to land a whole lot more punches...in a scenario like that, with a *boxer*...a striker is not going to prevail very often

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

And the power of a strike from a pro boxer is way harder (it's been measured at the U of W) than the handblows of pro MA experts. If the boxer knows you're going to try to kick, he’s just going to guard for it and wait for you to do it and move in and chop you up. If you go down for a grapple or clench, just does happen in the boxing ring, you'll have a chance, but like I said, the back of your neck, top of your head, and sides of your face and ribs and kidneys being peppered by a quality boxer is a powerful experience, but there is a slight possibility you can get an edge there.

But not in Liddell vs. Ali. :laugh:

Gotta go to work guys, have fun :cheers:

First of all, seeing people say Ali is quicker and faster than the best light heavyweight kickboxing expert in the world is a little overboard to me. Ali was fast in his weight class. Compared to fatboys like Liston, Frazier, and Foreman...YES, Ali was faster.

That being said...a boxer's power comes from their legs. Punching power starts from the ground up. Throwing that balance off with a fighting style they've never seen will take all that power away. You can load up your punching power in training like Ivan Drago, but it won't do anything if you are focusing on defending only 2 hands. When a boxing glove clips the opponent's boxing glove can really kill the effectiveness. That's why those guys can last so freakin' long.

Another weapon nobody has mentioned are elbows. You can elbow your opponent standing up or on the ground. Which would prevent any of that boring leaning that goes on in boxing.

[Jaded-Dragon]

Ok--while Jaded Dragon gets a little closer to the truth as I know it, let me say this about the leg-reach thing vs. arm-reach: throw it out in a street fight or in an Ali-Liddell match

Lee himself (and all covert-ops/SS/LE type training) taught that in real life you don't kick above groin unless you just know you're in charge and want to show off (while still risking it all). All that stuff is for show and entertainment. You really only want to go for instep or knee, even the groin being a last resort because every time you take one foot off the ground, and the higher you take it, you give away your balance and ability to remain upright and you give away your ability to shift as quick or use your other limb as effectively simultaneously. You kick waist-level or higher at a comparable boxer and even if you're super fast he will just lean back and then dart in and knock you on your ass. You kick his shin and he’ll outmaneuver your hand-guard and beat your ass.

And the power of a strike from a pro boxer is way harder (it's been measured at the U of W) than the handblows of pro MA experts. If the boxer knows you're going to try to kick, he’s just going to guard for it and wait for you to do it and move in and chop you up. If you go down for a grapple or clench, just does happen in the boxing ring, you'll have a chance, but like I said, the back of your neck, top of your head, and sides of your face and ribs and kidneys being peppered by a quality boxer is a powerful experience, but there is a slight possibility you can get an edge there.

But not in Liddell vs. Ali. :laugh:

Gotta go to work guys, have fun :cheers:

Absolutely true about Lee. Which is why, if I were Chuck, I'd be going for leg kicks to the thigh all day. If Ali dips his head down for a body shot, then you risk bringing your leg up to waist level and hitting him in the face ala Liddell vs Sobral 1. Not that Babalu is anywhere near the level of Ali in terms of punching, but I think that fight shows Chuck's countering ability.

I do, however feel that Chuck would not have that much of a problem getting inside to land some knees to the body or putting Ali in a Thai clinch. Especially if Ali wants to do a rope-a-dope.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Thing is, Lidell's grappling techniques have been negated by other opponents' long arms and power. Randy Couture? Rampage Jackson? These are guys with backgrounds in boxing that gave MMA fighters problems. Butterbean, Marcus Davis, Jeremy Williams were mediocre pro boxers that are getting MMA wins...can you imagine the elite boxers stepping over into that realm?

If you put 4 oz gloves on Ali, instead of 20 oz gloves he normally uses, not only is he going to have greater handspeed, but he's going to land a whole lot more punches...in a scenario like that, with a *boxer*...a striker is not going to prevail very often

Uhh, Randy Couture only boxed while he was in the Army. He has a Greco-Roman wrestling background, and he's the only champion/close to champion you mentioned. Jeremy Williams is 3-0 in MMA. He's faught nobody. Same goes for Butterbean, and he's lost 3 times. Marcus Davis is doing pretty well, but he is a submission specialist. He rarely knocks guys out.



Rampage is also a wrestler who learned Muay Thai Kickboxing when he became interested in MMA. He fights Liddell May 26th. He beat him when Liddell was up and coming. Chuck is a much different fighter these days, and Rampage is saying he's gonna walk right through him. Two of the best fighters out there. By the way, heavyweights used 8 ounce gloves back then. Now they use 10.1 ouncers.

[herrmag]

Just for the record, if you don't think I (or anybody able to dress themselves :D ) wouldn't know or consider the points you made prior to stating a contrary opinion, you're not thinking, my good friend. ;)

So no problemo with reasonable disagreement (informed or not), but I stand by my previous comments with other types. On the wrestler thing, not to get into specifics too much, but yes if a wrestler can get to boxer’s legs before he dances back and hits the guy on the back of the head/neck harder than he has even been hit, well maybe, but on the way down the wrestler is going to get peppered with a number of hard short punches and be dealing with a body that has also trained for strength and endurance (wind). Remember I’m speaking at mid-to top level skill here for each participant, and that’s an important point.

One big difference is the value in training where you constantly get hit and hit someone else as a regular deal. Even in MMA the actual contact during training is less than that of boxing. At the higher skill levels, that counts quite a bit. But fwiw, I would pick a pure wrestler as the most effective MA next to a boxer, and where there is little room for maneuverability, the most dangerous (as in my "closet" comment earlier).

BTW hermagg, I'd turn one point around on you: the boxers that "never make a name for themselves" or boxers who couldn't make it in boxing. There are a number of reasons I keep using the phrase mid-to-top level equality as a qualifier. In fact, if any MMA guys could become good enough to compete in boxing, he would. There is much more money in boxing.

I think you should take a closer look the next time watching mma. It doesn't take but a split second for someone that is a quality wrestler to take someone quickly to the mat. This notion that Ali would have time to "pepper" him is, IMO, erroneous. He would not have that time. Also, something people are forgetting is that Lidell has long arms. Extremely long, and a very unorthodox fighting/punching stance. This would be very foreign to Ali.

And, to whomever it was that stated "why do you think MMA guys don't get into boxing"? You're absolutely right. But again, that's in a boxing match. That is not the point.

[PleaseBlitz]

If it's MMA rules, ATBE, Liddell wins.

If it's boxing rules, ATBE, Ali wins.

If anyone thinks that Chuck would let this matchup turn into a boxing match, thats just nuts. "Boxing" is not standing there trading punches. Ali was a great boxer. Chuck WAS a D-I wrestler, he WILL eat a punch from Ali to take the fight to the ground, at which point, its over. Ali would be completely out of his element, and Liddell would be all http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a153/Shells_/16280.jpg

I also give Chuck an advantage because today's athletes are stronger and faster than athletes of times past due to the training advantages.

[chuckflhp]

Its funny, the Liddell camp gives him all the advantages and gives the GOAT every disadvantage. Chuck is an awesome fighter, no question. He has never faced anyone with even remotely the hand speed of Ali. I read about clinches. There's not going to be any. Liddell would have to stay away. Ali would easily avoid kicks and leg strikes. Top HW's couldn't hit him when they were 1 foot away. The first time Chuck gets within striking distance, it's over. Ali isn't going to hit him once, he's going to hit him several times in a row. Faster and harder than he has ever been hit. For Liddell to get close enough to hit or grapple him, he will be close enough to get hit. He will never get the chance to grapple. Liddell tries kicks , Ali simply backs away. And waits. Until he is close enough, and then he destroys him.

And yes, most boxers need their legs under them to get power. Not Ali. Off balance, backpedaling, weird angles, those were his strengths. He could hit you with knockout power when he wasn't supposed to be able to throw a punch at all.

But this was a street fight. There is few things scarier than a boxer with no gloves and no rules. The open hand jab to the eyes, stiff fingers to the throat. You can't hit what you can't see, and you can't fight if you can't breathe.

If Ali has to follow boxing rules against Liddell and he has UFC or whatever rules? Maybe then he would stand a chance. A chance, and I would still bet Ali.

Hail :helmet:

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Its funny, the Liddell camp gives him all the advantages and gives the GOAT every disadvantage. Chuck is an awesome fighter, no question. He has never faced anyone with even remotely the hand speed of Ali. I read about clinches. There's not going to be any. Liddell would have to stay away. Ali would easily avoid kicks and leg strikes. Top HW's couldn't hit him when they were 1 foot away. The first time Chuck gets within striking distance, it's over. Ali isn't going to hit him once, he's going to hit him several times in a row. Faster and harder than he has ever been hit. For Liddell to get close enough to hit or grapple him, he will be close enough to get hit. He will never get the chance to grapple. Liddell tries kicks , Ali simply backs away. And waits. Until he is close enough, and then he destroys him.

And yes, most boxers need their legs under them to get power. Not Ali. Off balance, backpedaling, weird angles, those were his strengths. He could hit you with knockout power when he wasn't supposed to be able to throw a punch at all.

But this was a street fight. There is few things scarier than a boxer with no gloves and no rules. The open hand jab to the eyes, stiff fingers to the throat. You can't hit what you can't see, and you can't fight if you can't breathe.

If Ali has to follow boxing rules against Liddell and he has UFC or whatever rules? Maybe then he would stand a chance. A chance, and I would still bet Ali.

Hail :helmet:

Ali was at his best when he would eat about 10 punches then throw a flurry from over the top. Again, Ali's handspeed was judged in comparison to his fellow heavyweights. Who were some big boys with speed that just can't compare to lighter weight classes. Very powerful, but not as fast. Chuck has seen faster, and more types of strikes than you can imagine.

The reason top heavyweights couldn't hit him up close were because he'd cover his face for a minute at a time while they'd unload against those 8 oz. gloves. Make them tired, and then unload on them.

Ali could punch off balance and at wonderful angles, but I disagree with him having knockout power being off balance. He'd gain points and destroy a fighter's confidence with that stuff. His overhand rights and lefts were tight and destructive. Most of his knockouts were due to those massive blows.

And since when has Ali ever taught to check a speeding kick? Even back away from one? It's not as "simple" as you put it. Here, make a fist, and bang it as hard as you can in to your outer thigh. Imagine it hurting a little more, and having it happen a couple times. If Foreman for Foreman ever threw any knees when Ali was ropadoping, we'd be talking about Foreman in this poll. But Ali is the greatest boxer of all time. Maybe even the greatest athelete. If he ever trained in MMA, he would probably have been the greatest in that, also.

[Mooka]

"If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."
Muhammad Ali

:D



I also give Chuck an advantage because today's athletes are stronger and faster than athletes of times past due to the training advantages. Off topic, but you could also argue the opposite; especially since we're talking about a street fight here. For example, Jack Dempsey would rub sand paper on his face to toughen up his skin. His training when he was younger consisted of walking into bars and challenging anyone to a fight. Well before Ali's time, but there's a fighter for ya. :redpunch:

[.Guy.]

"If you even dream of beating me you'd better wake up and apologize."
Muhammad Ali

:laugh:

Even better:

"I'm so bad I make medicine sick!"
Muhammad Ali

----

I don't get why people are voting for Liddell thinking that the fight would be in Liddells advantage (MMA rules). This would be a straight up street fight where anything goes. Ali comes out on top everytime just because he is a better fighter.

[Jaded-Dragon]

:laugh:

Even better:

"I'm so bad I make medicine sick!"
Muhammad Ali

----

I don't get why people are voting for Liddell thinking that the fight would be in Liddells advantage (MMA rules). This would be a straight up street fight where anything goes. Ali comes out on top everytime just because he is a better fighter.

Because umm... ya know... MMA is alot closer to a street fight than boxing is? I think you are excluding a few things, such as, the origins of MMA are based off of anything goes competition, what really works in a REAL fight. Asides from eye gouges and groin shots of course. Ever notice how a straight boxer has yet to come over and compete in MMA and be successful? It's because you can't beat a real MMA fighter by doing one thing. Takedowns might be Matt Hughes's bread and butter, but he can submit also, and he's been trying to improve on his stand up so he can be an even more well rounded righter.

Yeah, chuck prefers a slug fest, but how do you think he keeps fights from getting on the ground? Take down defense, guy.

Randy Couture is known for his takedowns and wrestling ability. But he knocked Tim Silvia on his ass in the first 20 seconds of their fight didn't he? And how did he do that? By developing his striking skills.

Point being, Liddell is a more well rounded fighter than Ali was. You guys make it sound like Ali was so fast that people never dogded or avoided him. Maybe not consistently they didn't, but for an MMA guy it's dodge one sloppy cross and take the guy down.

[Jumbo]

Pretty true, chuck.

This reminds me of those conversations about sexual expertise between a guy who has been with a lot of women over a long period of time and done very well, and a bunch of guys who read about it, watch others doing it, talk about it, and "practice" it a lot, but still don't know near as much about the real thing as they think they do. :laugh:

[herrmag]

Pretty true, chuck.

This reminds me of those conversations about sexual expertise between a guy who has been with a lot of women over a long period of time and done very well, and a bunch of guys who read about it, watch others doing it, talk about it, and "practice" it a lot, but still don't know near as much about the real thing as they think they do. :laugh:

So which group do you fit in Jumbo? :silly:

[Jumbo]

So which group do you fit in Jumbo? :silly:

Right now, probably the one where everyone, including the women, kick my ass :laugh:

[GOKU]

The Dragon, Bruce Lee would whip all there asses in 1hundred of a second. That dude is not to be messed with. I wish Bruce Lee was still alive. He passed when he was 32years old. All hail divine Bruce Lee.

[#98QBKiller]

The Dragon, Bruce Lee would whip all there asses in 1hundred of a second. That dude is not to be messed with. I wish Bruce Lee was still alive. He passed when he was 32years old. All hail divine Bruce Lee.



His grandson is right here:


http://www.onlyfights.com/fight1000.html

[cmorina69]

Ali, Mayweather could beat Chuck. Boxing is great, ultamate fighting is stupid its a step above wrestling ( the fake one).

[.Guy.]

I always knew Ali would win in the poll :D.

Thanks MODS

[Sticksboi05]

Well ,we know who'd win in a smack talking competition ( :D ). I actually just wrote an essay on why Ali is someone who I'd really want to be.

[PleaseBlitz]

Pretty true, chuck.

This reminds me of those conversations about sexual expertise between a guy who has been with a lot of women over a long period of time and done very well, and a bunch of guys who read about it, watch others doing it, talk about it, and "practice" it a lot, but still don't know near as much about the real thing as they think they do. :laugh:


Obviously, ive never trained for MMA. But i have boxed, and i wrestled for 15+ years at a very high level.

Ive also been in my share of fights as a doorman in college. Wrestling ability is a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger advantage in a fight than boxing ability.

Anyone that thinks Chuck Liddell couldnt take Ali to the ground is just wrong. Flat wrong. It makes no difference how fast Ali's hands are. None. It takes a completely different skill set to defend a takedown, and Ali doesnt have it. The fight WILL end up on the ground, and WHEN that happens, Liddell WILL dominate the fight.

There is a reason that the most dominant guys in MMA are converted wrestlers, not converted boxers. Matt Hughes, Liddell, Randy Couture, and on and on and on.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I'm wondering why the poll had to be negotiated. :doh:

[Jumbo]

Obviously, ive never trained for MMA. But i have boxed, and i wrestled for 15+ years at a very high level.

Ive also been in my share of fights as a doorman in college. Wrestling ability is a MUCH MUCH MUCH bigger advantage in a fight than boxing ability.

Anyone that thinks Chuck Liddell couldnt take Ali to the ground is just wrong. Flat wrong. It makes no difference how fast Ali's hands are. None. It takes a completely different skill set to defend a takedown, and Ali doesnt have it. The fight WILL end up on the ground, and WHEN that happens, Liddell WILL dominate the fight.

There is a reason that the most dominant guys in MMA are converted wrestlers, not converted boxers. Matt Hughes, Liddell, Randy Couture, and on and on and on.


And I will still avoid the "credentials" game, for my own reasons, with all due respect. But if you speak true and accurate, your opinion is at least an informed one, even if it differs strongly with mine. There is informed disagreement, and one my main points was that a lot of the uninformed type was talking loud in the thread. Note, I gave wrestling the big props (olympic wrestlers are scary) for in-close threat, and mentioned limited space taking the boxers edge away. Nonetheless, you are the one who is "flat wrong", super-period :D , on the Ali-Liddell thing, no matter how you want to imagine it, and on several of your suppositions. While your opinion is more informed than many (taking you at your word which I do PB) it is still inferior to mine, as partially proven by your conclusion. :) :cheers: :laugh:

[PleaseBlitz]

And I will still avoid the "credentials" game, for my own reasons, with all due respect. But if you speak true and accurate, your opinion is at least an informed one, even if it differs strongly with mine. There is informed disagreement, and one my main points was that a lot of the uninformed type was talking loud in the thread. Note, I gave wrestling the big props (olympic wrestlers are scary) for in-close threat, and mentioned limited space taking the boxers edge away. Nonetheless, you are the one who is "flat wrong", super-period :D , on the Ali-Liddell thing, no matter how you want to imagine it, and on several of your suppositions. While your opinion is more informed than many (taking you at your word which I do PB) it is still inferior to mine, as partially proven by your conclusion. :) :cheers: :laugh:

I think we should just fight it out Jumbo. :laugh:

[Jumbo]

I think we should just fight it out Jumbo. :laugh:


If absolutely necessary :laugh: , but I'd suggest we have a beer and team up against the other guys instead :silly: :cheers:

Besides, bro, I prob wouldn't stick with boxing--it's not what I'm best at. :laugh:

[PleaseBlitz]

If absolutely necessary :laugh: , but I'd suggest we have a beer and team up against the other guys instead :silly: :cheers:

Besides, bro, I prob wouldn't stick with boxing--it's not what I'm best at. :laugh:

Sounds good to me. :cheers:

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Sucks somebody had to mess with the poll. I understand that Ali is a hero to many though. Maybe I should have used someone less of an icon than Ali. Like Marciano or Tyson. Nonthless, I last saw it about 5 hours ago at 42-27 Liddell. Yall Ali supporters sting like bees. :)

[herrmag]

Sucks somebody had to mess with the poll. I understand that Ali is a hero to many though. Maybe I should have used someone less of an icon than Ali. Like Marciano or Tyson. Nonthless, I last saw it about 5 hours ago at 42-27 Liddell. Yall Ali supporters sting like bees. :)

Haven't you heard? We're uninformed.....Per jumbo. :mad:

[.Guy.]

Liddell would run away in fear after witnessing the 8th wonder of the world that are my forearms.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Liddell would run away in fear after witnessing the 8th wonder of the world that are my forearms.
You have girly forearms!!! I have gigantic Popeye forearms!!! I will OWN you!!!

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Liddell would run away in fear after witnessing the 8th wonder of the world that are my forearms.

How dare you cut down Ali. HE is the 8th wonder. Chuck is the 9th. ;)

[.Guy.]

How dare you cut down Ali. HE is the 8th wonder. Chuck is the 9th. ;)

Ali is the 7th, the pyramids are bitches compared to Ali.


You have girly forearms!!! I have gigantic Popeye forearms!!! I will OWN you!!!

Ehem, I will enjoy seeing what you call forearms. More like tooth picks! My forearms are thickers than your thighs. :mad:

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Ali is the 7th, the pyramids are bitches compared to Ali.



Ehem, I will enjoy seeing what you call forearms. More like tooth picks! My forearms are thickers than your thighs. :mad:

We are so humble aren't we? What happens when you face a tournament wrestler that dislocates your elbow? It's so easy to proclaim without prooving yourself, isn't it?

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Pretty true, chuck.

This reminds me of those conversations about sexual expertise between a guy who has been with a lot of women over a long period of time and done very well, and a bunch of guys who read about it, watch others doing it, talk about it, and "practice" it a lot, but still don't know near as much about the real thing as they think they do. :laugh:

Uhhhh how does that remind you of THAT? Sounds like you're so aware of your struggles in perfecting your game in bed that you have to vent it by comparing people who favor Chuck Liddell to being bad doin it. You boosting Ali's votes by 80 probably interprets how much you wish you could dominate in the sack. You are exposing your love making abilities, and you're trying to demean people who think MMA fighters could dominate someone who handicaps himself to being good with two hands, standing up, with mittens on. So in comparison, you probably hump as hard as you can, only do doggy style, and wear thick condoms so the girl's dryness doesn't rip it. Hmm, this is just silly. :ladiesman

[megared]

First of all, seeing people say Ali is quicker and faster than the best light heavyweight kickboxing expert in the world is a little overboard to me. Ali was fast in his weight class. Compared to fatboys like Liston, Frazier, and Foreman...YES, Ali was faster.

That being said...a boxer's power comes from their legs. Punching power starts from the ground up. Throwing that balance off with a fighting style they've never seen will take all that power away. You can load up your punching power in training like Ivan Drago, but it won't do anything if you are focusing on defending only 2 hands. When a boxing glove clips the opponent's boxing glove can really kill the effectiveness. That's why those guys can last so freakin' long.

Another weapon nobody has mentioned are elbows. You can elbow your opponent standing up or on the ground. Which would prevent any of that boring leaning that goes on in boxing.

Maybe after the fact, but wow. Fat?

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/GeorgeForeman-22.jpg


Here's a link to a video showing Ali throwing 11 punches in 3 seconds:

http://video.earwaxrecords.com/video/2a9047cc-dbff-4057-8972-9865014cfad0.htm

[redskinsfan85]

We are so humble aren't we? What happens when you face a tournament wrestler that dislocates your elbow? It's so easy to proclaim without prooving yourself, isn't it?

I'm sure he's messing around...
No point in getting all stirred up about what he posted...he knows he's not the best, you know he's not the best, again just having fun.

I'm sure the dude in your pic could knock him out cold in 1 punch. He'd prolly knock us all out.

Oh yeah and on topc...Ali wins easily. He's to fast. Whatever advantage Chuck might have with his kicks Ali would take away. Then it'd be left to punch and Ali has the fasted punches in the world.

Game over. Ali 1 - Chuck 0

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I'm sure he's messing around...
No point in getting all stirred up about what he posted...he knows he's not the best, you know he's not the best, again just having fun.

I'm sure the dude in your pic could knock him out cold in 1 punch. He'd prolly knock us all out.

He was talking about arm wrestling. He boasted about being able to beat anybody here all night last night. Can't stir the pot when he had the spatula.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Maybe after the fact, but wow. Fat?

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/images/GeorgeForeman-22.jpg


Here's a link to a video showing Ali throwing 11 punches in 3 seconds:

http://video.earwaxrecords.com/video/2a9047cc-dbff-4057-8972-9865014cfad0.htm





"Fat" was a figure of speach. Foreman was the biggest of them all. His punches were thunderous but he apparently thought Ali's gloves were his face. It might have been his face if Ali tried ropadoping with mma gloves...much less bare fists.

Otherwise, that 11 punch combo in 3 seconds is incredible. Absolutely amazing. The guy he was fighting looks like he should be in an office somewhere, but nonthless...Ali is the greatest puncher of all time. Speed combined with power, gameplanning and execution. Along with awesome footwork, he had it all. The master of the sweet science. But I'd be willing to bet, 230 lb. Pride Champion Fedor Emelianenko could throw punches that aren't much of a downgrade in effectiveness from Ali's. Maybe not with the same effect in a boxing match, but with the little MMA gloves he'd do enough damage to tackle someone desperately covering up their face. Watching Fedor, you see how little stand up boxing has to do with it. While watching Chuck, you see how much more there is when you're able to strike with 8 different points on your limbs...including when you're on the ground.

[PleaseBlitz]

Here's a link to a video showing Ali throwing 11 punches in 3 seconds:

http://video.earwaxrecords.com/video/2a9047cc-dbff-4057-8972-9865014cfad0.htm





Thats awesome. Poor guy doesnt know what is happening to him. :laugh:

Though in fairness, someone could just post a vid of Liddell doing the same to Tito Ortiz in UFC 66, and that was a championship bout.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Here's a video of Fedor blowing up Naoya Ogawa, who was undefeated, even after facing the K-1 champion of the world. Not anymore. Notice him ignore Fedor's handshake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6x8OH8r1T0&mode=related&search=

[afparent]

Mayweather says he would knock out Liddell!!!

http://sports.yahoo.com/box/news?slug=dw-mayweather041807&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

Ultimate challenge for Mayweather?

By Dan Wetzel, Yahoo! Sports
April 18, 2007

Floyd Mayweather stands almost 5-foot-9, weighs 154 pounds, has a 72-inch reach and can drop most mortals with a single swing of either hand.

He's fast, athletic and dodges punches as well as anyone, maybe ever. In 13 world title fights, he won all 13. His next one is May 5 in Las Vegas, this time as a junior middleweight, against Oscar de la Hoya, as big a fight as boxing has seen in years.

His nickname may be "Pretty Boy," but he is one bad, bad man.

On Cinco de Mayo we'll find out if the heavily-favored Mayweather can beat de la Hoya – but could he beat a snarling, menacing, multi-skilled champion of the Ultimate Fighting Championship?

How about lightweight (155 pound) champ Sean Sherk, who may stand just 5-foot-6, may suffer from a distinct reach disadvantage, but as a mixed martial arts master is schooled in "interdisciplinary forms of fighting that include jiu-jitsu, judo, karate, boxing, kickboxing, wrestling."

Could the best pound-for-pound fighter in the old combat sport (boxing) handle a champion in the new combat sport (UFC)?

"UFC's champions can't handle boxing. That's why they are in UFC." Mayweather said Tuesday from Las Vegas during a break in training. "Put one of our guys in UFC and he'd be the champion. Any good fighter, he'd straight knock them out."

Dana White, a one-time boxer and boxing instructor and current UFC president, laughs at that.

"Boxers couldn't become mixed martial artists. That's why they're boxers," White countered Wednesday from England where UFC has an event Saturday. "They are one trick ponies. Our guys can do everything. They can box, they can kick box, they can wrestle and do jiu-jitsu. They are much better athletes than boxers."

Mayweather may be right, but he'd have to be. Any boxer stepping into the UFC octagon would have to knock his opponent out before the mixed martial artist got a hold of him, because once the fight fell to the mat, where things get nasty, the boxer is all but finished.

But, as Mayweather points out, the often (by boxing standards) clumsy and lead-with-their-face UFC guys would have to walk through a hail of vicious jabs, crosses and hooks to get there.

"Take Chuck Liddell," Mayweather said of the UFC's biggest star and light heavyweight champion (about 205 pounds). "Put him in the ring with a (boxer) who is just 10-0 and Chuck Liddell would get punished."

So you'd punish a UFC champion, too?

"Come on, man. What'd you think? Am I just 10-0?"

Mayweather is 37-0.

Liddell, with six inches and 50 pounds on Mayweather, isn't possible, but someone like Sherk, someone his size? With that insane reach, unreal punching power and by UFC rules aided by small, light 4-ounce gloves would Mayweather carve up Sherk instantly? Or would Sherk fight throughout the barrage and get Mayweather in a clutch no ref will save him from?

"They wouldn't have a chance to grapple (us) because we'd knock them out," Mayweather said in general. "(The fighter) would be knocked out before he even touched us."

Of course, perhaps no punch is strong enough to stop a charging opponent.

No one really knows what would happen at such an elite level.

"I used to talk like Floyd Mayweather when I was involved in boxing," White said. "I talked just like him, until I educated myself about this sport. These guys are amazing athletes, Floyd Mayweather is one of the best boxers ever, (and) Sean Sherk will whoop his ass in under two minutes."

"Any day that Mayweather wants to put his money and his ass where his mouth is, I'm ready," White continued. "If he wants to step up, let's do it."

First off, Mayweather was talking mostly in general about his disdain for UFC – "Boxing is an art, UFC is a fad." But Mayweather has spent almost as much time this spring ripping UFC as de la Hoya, who he seems to consider as little more than a matinee idol useful for only increasing the purse.

"I never knew popularity to win any fight," Mayweather said. "I'll beat him and come home and watch basketball."

The UFC, though, is clearly on his mind. He brought it up on his own Tuesday. Earlier this month he cracked that "anyone can put a tattoo on their head and get in a street fight."

Mayweather may be a talker – loquacious doesn't begin to describe the 30-year-old – but he isn't dumb. So maybe he is setting up another big pay day in the event he dusts de la Hoya and boxing has little to offer. Or maybe he just wants to promote a fight involving others.

Of course, the economics of UFC would have to change to get Mayweather to participate. UFC fighters make a fraction of top boxers. As part of the family business, Mayweather, his dad and his uncle handle all aspects of his career. For the de la Hoya fight he'll earn millions.

"Why would I go into a sport paying hundreds of thousands when I'm in a sport paying $20 million?" Mayweather said.

Mayweather knows full well, though, that the pay per view money is there for the taking on something like this, a battle that would be intriguing at nearly every level. White would just about kill for this to go down, preferably with Mayweather involved as a fighter.

"I'm willing to put together a fight for Sean Sherk and Floyd Mayweather with numbers that would make sense for Floyd," White said. "And I guarantee you he would not accept it. Floyd Mayweather would never fight in the UFC because he would get his head ripped off."

Yes, he would. But only if Sherk didn't get his head ripped off first.



Dan Wetzel is Yahoo! Sports' national columnist. Send Dan a question or comment for potential use in a future column or webcast.

Updated on Thursday

[megared]

"Fat" was a figure of speach. Foreman was the biggest of them all. His punches were thunderous but he apparently thought Ali's gloves were his face. It might have been his face if Ali tried ropadoping with mma gloves...much less bare fists.

Otherwise, that 11 punch combo in 3 seconds is incredible. Absolutely amazing. The guy he was fighting looks like he should be in an office somewhere, but nonthless...Ali is the greatest puncher of all time. Speed combined with power, gameplanning and execution. Along with awesome footwork, he had it all. But I'd be willing to bet, 230 lb. Pride Champion Fedor Emelianenko could stand with the big guy. Maybe not with the same effect in a boxing match, but with the little MMA gloves he'd do enough damage to tackle someone desperately covering up their face. Watching Fedor, you see how little stand up boxing has to do with it. While watching Chuck, you see how much more there is when you're able to strike with 8 different points on your limbs...including when you're on the ground.

At one point Brian London was 22-3 and easily considered one of Britian's finest boxers at that time.

Dope-a-rope was something Ali did after the majority of his *incredible* speed had left him (he was 32 at the time of that fight). He had 3 years of his prime taken, after which he never had the same footwork or handspeed. A 'prime' Ali was almost a completely different boxer, one that showed you weaknesses just to capitalize off the mistakes you make trying to exploit them. He held his lefthand by his side and wasn't taking any contact...he pulled straight away from punches...something virtually no other fighter has been able to get away with doing, and are taught not to do.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Chuck. But under the premise of this thread (maybe I was mistaken in thinking "street" fight)...anytime blows are exchanged, Chuck's not going to be able to contend. Since when did a street fight consist of submissions?

Jimmy Jacobs (who owned the most extensive collection of boxing film) has said that not only is Ali's jab quicker than SRR's, but the fastest he's ever seen on film...

In the May 5th, 1959 issue of Sports Illustrated, Ali's jab was measured with an omegascope. It said his jab could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. The actual time is takes his fist to travel the distance is 4/100 of a second, the same time it takes to blink your eyes.

You're saying that without the 20oz gloves (and with presumably something lighter) Ali's not going to be quicker? You do realize that as far as defense, counterpunches, instincts Ali has no peers?

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

^ ^

Oh GOD would I love to see him try to peppermint pat-punch Sherk until a decision came. Sherk would choke him out in the first 30 seconds. Taking someone down is not about diving in to punching lanes. It's about throwing blows and fakes until there's an opening. It take a tenth of a second for a fighter of Sherks class to shoot straight at their body with a shoulder and tucked jaw. Whether it's high or low, once a clinch has been made, the boxer is done. Otherwise, I don't know if Mayweather would want to even trade with Sherk. He is one mean dude.

[Chachie]

I've already given my opinions on who would have an advantage if this were under MMA rules and Ali had to wear puffy gloves, now let's mix this up a bit:


MMA fighters gas after 2-4 rounds (5 minute rds) while boxers fight up to 12 (3 min) rounds. (Edit- when Ali was in his prime they fought FIFTEEN.) Do not underestimate the amount of "wrestling" that goes on in a boxing match either and those guys are not allowed to even "touch" the canvas. Now make this fight go longer than the MMA championship 5 rounds. Say even 8 rounds.

Put MMA gloves on MUHAMMAD ALI. He's the single-greatest puncher (counting speed, power, accuracy) in heavyweight boxing history. Can you imagine what he could do with one shot in those tiny knuckle pads? How many times he'd hit Chuck before Liddell even reached his take-down destination?

Also consider that Ali did in fact fight a wrestler in the 1970s by the name of Antonio Inoki, an old-school MMA king in Japan who's son is a Pride FC fighter today. In that bout (which admittedly was an "exhibition") Ali avoided take-downs all night on route to a 15 round decision.

Let us also consider that Liddell is NOT known for "great" ground skills. They would obviously be "greater" than what Ali could do on the mat by far but it's not Chuck's specialty. He has awesome take-down defense but he's a striker by trade and by reputation. Can he "outstrike" Muhammad Freaking Ali? Nope. No. Uh-uh. He can come out in the opening round looking for a take-down of Ali but that's not even recommended while an opponent is fresh in MMA versus the inferior punchers in THAT sport, so why would that be wise against "The Greatest of All Time?" Stretch this bout out to the 3rd round and beyond (if Chuck is still conscious) and his strength fades, making his shoots for take-down slower and weaker.

As we all see in UFC and Pride, any man CAN be beat and the outcome in a Liddell-Ali fight would be unpredictable, but Ali is clearly the overwhelming favorite in this imagined match-up if he's allowed to wear the right equipment. There's a big reason why they make boxers wear pillows on their hands.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

At one point Brian London was 22-3 and easily considered one of Britian's finest boxers at that time.

Dope-a-rope was something Ali did after the majority of his *incredible* speed had left him (he was 32 at the time of that fight). He had 3 years of his prime taken, after which he never had the same footwork or handspeed. A 'prime' Ali was almost a completely different boxer, one that showed you weaknesses just to capitalize off the mistakes you make trying to exploit them. He held his lefthand by his side and wasn't taking any contact...he pulled straight away from punches...something virtually no other fighter has been able to get away with doing, and are taught not to do.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Chuck. But under the premise of this thread (maybe I was mistaken in thinking "street" fight)...anytime blows are exchanged, Chuck's not going to be able to contend. Since when did a street fight consist of submissions?

Jimmy Jacobs (who owned the most extensive collection of boxing film) has said that not only is Ali's jab quicker than SRR's, but the fastest he's ever seen on film...

In the May 5th, 1959 issue of Sports Illustrated, Ali's jab was measured with an omegascope. It said his jab could smash a balsa board 16.5 inches away in 19/100 of a second. The actual time is takes his fist to travel the distance is 4/100 of a second, the same time it takes to blink your eyes.

Your saying without the 20oz gloves Ali's not going to be quicker? You do realize that as far as defense, counterpunches, instincts Ali has no peers?

O.K. man, I get it. Muhammad has the fastest hands of any HW ever. I respect him totally with his hands and that's that. He's the first fighter I ever watched along with Sugar Ray Leonard. My father still has those Beta tapes stashed under the T.V. I defined "speed" as quickness rather than the velocity of the punch. That SI info is someting I did not know, but very informing, thank you! :)

Your definition of "blows" is obviously fists, standing up, only, but I'm tired of making that point.

Also, as I said earlier, you don't see submissions in street fights because it's usually some drunk people, kids after school, or Kimbo boxing some dudes on the street. These people trained in jiu jitsu and other grappling arts don't waste their time out there. By the way, I like how this Kimbo guy comes in as the self-proclaimed king of internet street fighting, picks on other guys that lift weights and hit punching bags in their basements...then fights a below-average MMA fighter and has to makes rules. No knees allowed, no submissions, no hitting on the ground. And he still lost.

And please understand that no boxer ever wore 20 oz. gloves. Maybe when they flirted with their wives, but not in any boxing match. Back then, heavyweights wore 8 oz. gloves. And these days, they wear 10.1 oz gloves. Boxing is about scoring and establishing a pocket presence to feel out how to knock your opponent out, MMA is about haymakers only. Not the fastest jabs ever - moreso swinging your arms like a baseball bat as hard as you can 3 times a second. Then tackling your opponent and resuming the same thing on the ground. That's if your opponent knows what he's doing. Otherwise they get choked out or a limb hyperextended.

[Chachie]

First of all, seeing people say Ali is quicker and faster than the best light heavyweight kickboxing expert in the world is a little overboard to me. Ali was fast in his weight class. Compared to fatboys like Liston, Frazier, and Foreman...YES, Ali was faster.

That being said...a boxer's power comes from their legs. Punching power starts from the ground up. Throwing that balance off with a fighting style they've never seen will take all that power away. You can load up your punching power in training like Ivan Drago, but it won't do anything if you are focusing on defending only 2 hands. When a boxing glove clips the opponent's boxing glove can really kill the effectiveness. That's why those guys can last so freakin' long.

Another weapon nobody has mentioned are elbows. You can elbow your opponent standing up or on the ground. Which would prevent any of that boring leaning that goes on in boxing.


I very much respect your MMA knowledge and believe me- MMA has overshadowed boxing in the modern day for me. That's saying a lot too, because I was a boxing fanatic for over 30 years and I boxed in the Navy.

However- Ali's best days were LONG behind him long before you were born. If you can find old footage of Ali in the ring, you'd know that he wasn't JUST a good fighter. He was a phenomonal physical specimen who could give AND take TREMENDOUS punishment. Check out Ali v. Foreman, Ali v. Frazier 1 to see what he could take and Ali v. Liston or Ali v. Foley to see what he could dish out.

He could dance all night long and hurt people while backing up.

We aren't talking about just any boxer here. He was a freak of nature who could hit deceivingly hard even for a heavyweight and could flurry as fast as a middleweight. It's just no contest in my mind.

[Chachie]

Maybe after the fact, but wow. Fat?



Here's a link to a video showing Ali throwing 11 punches in 3 seconds:



Sick. Just sick. :)

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I've already given my opinions on who would have an advantage if this were under MMA rules and Ali had to wear puffy gloves, now let's mix this up a bit:


MMA fighters gas after 2-4 rounds (5 minute rds) while boxers fight up to 12 (3 min) rounds. Do not underestimate the amount of "wrestling" that goes on in a boxing match either and those guys are not allowed to even "touch" the canvas. Now make this fight go longer than the MMA championship 5 rounds. Say even 8 rounds.

Put MMA gloves on MUHAMMAD ALI. He's the single-greatest puncher (counting speed, power, accuracy) in heavyweight boxing history. Can you imagine what he could do with one shot in those tiny knuckle pads? How many times he'd hit Chuck before Liddell even reached his take-down destination?

Also consider that Ali did in fact fight a wrestler in the 1970s by the name of Antonio Inoki, an old-school MMA king in Japan who's son is a Pride FC fighter today. In that bout (which admittedly was an "exhibition") Ali avoided take-downs all night on route to a 15 round decision.

Let us also consider that Liddell is NOT known for "great" ground skills. They would obviously be "greater" than what Ali could do on the mat by far but it's not Chuck's specialty. He has awesome take-down defense but he's a striker by trade and by reputation. Can he "outstrike" Muhammad Freaking Ali? Nope. No. Uh-uh. He can come out in the opening round looking for a take-down of Ali but that's not even recommended while an opponent is fresh in MMA versus the inferior punchers in THAT sport, so why would that be wise against "The Greatest of All Time?" Stretch this bout out to the 3rd round and beyond (if Chuck is still conscious) and his strength fades, making his shoots for take-down slower and weaker.

As we all see in UFC and Pride, any man CAN be beat and the outcome in a Liddell-Ali fight would be unpredictable, but Ali is clearly the overwhelming favorite in this imagined match-up if he's allowed to wear the right equipment. There's a big reason why they make boxers wear pillows on their hands.

You call the blatent leaning in boxing WRESTLING? Have you ever faught on the ground with a wrestler or any kind of skilled ground fighter?

The stamina it takes to go the distance in boxing makes it a pepper/lean/catch breath/throw a flurry and hope fest. Are you saying these guys aren't in as good of shape as Ali? You are simply not informed of their training. Actually, it's pretty much common sense. They aren't going to take it any EASIER because the fight is 3 or 5 rounds. You get in the best shape you possibly can, and that's that. These guys are machines with all the technology and advances in fitness these days. And they work out just as hard as Ali did.

Again, saying Ali is the greatest puncher of all time can only be related to the way he punched. To combo with those gloves and wear your opponent down is much different than developing wild haymakers that are meant to knock you to the floor or make "holy ****" run through your mind. I gurentee the first time a boxer hears a shin whistle past his lips, he will go away from his traditional boxing technique and get tight and stiff. Chuck is also good at takedowns. He doesn't do the traditional tackling takedown such as an Ortiz or Couture would do. As soon as he sees his opponent off balance he pushes them over and down. If Ali slips in any way, he better jet back up in the opposite direction of where a martial artist is standing.

[Mooka]

Are you saying these guys aren't in as good of shape as Ali? Umm yes, MMA guys vs possibly the greatest athlete in history. I would think that was a given.


Again, saying Ali is the greatest puncher of all time can only be related to the way he punched. To combo with those gloves and wear your opponent down is much different than developing wild haymakers that are meant to knock you to the floor or make "holy ****" run through your mind. I've watche Ali dodge punches for an entire round straight. Dodging, not blocking, dodging by moving his head. You think an MMA fighter is going to connect with a haymaker? That's just absurd. The only way Chuck is going to win this fight is if he gets Ali to the ground, that's it.



I gurentee the first time a boxer hears a shin whistle past his lips, he will go away from his traditional boxing technique and get tight and stiff. There's no kicking in the face in a street fight with Muhammad Ali, or Chuck Lidell, or most fighers trained in anything. A kick to the face leaves you completely unguarded and off-balance.


If Ali slips in any way, he better jet back up in the opposite direction of where a martial artist is standing. If Ali slips? Dude, seriously, have you seen Ali's footwork? It's unhuman, he aint slippin.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I very much respect your MMA knowledge and believe me- MMA has overshadowed boxing in the modern day for me. That's saying a lot too, because I was a boxing fanatic for over 30 years and I boxed in the Navy.

However- Ali's best days were LONG behind him long before you were born. If you can find old footage of Ali in the ring, you'd know that he wasn't JUST a good fighter. He was a phenomonal physical specimen who could give AND take TREMENDOUS punishment. Check out Ali v. Foreman, Ali v. Frazier 1 to see what he could take and Ali v. Liston or Ali v. Foley to see what he could dish out.

He could dance all night long and hurt people while backing up.

We aren't talking about just any boxer here. He was a freak of nature who could hit deceivingly hard even for a heavyweight and could flurry as fast as a middleweight. It's just no contest in my mind.

There's no doubt in my mind that if Ali took up MMA, he'd be an incredible athletic specimen. He is everything you said he is. No doubt. He is one of the top atheletes I look to for inspiration. The determination and will to win in his face was enough to make me love boxing as a child. I trained in boxing for 3 years until I learned how to kick. Right now I'm studying jiu jitsu and shootfighting which is a great combination of intensity and complexity. I've seen all the fights besides maybe the Foley fight. My favorite being the Foreman fight when he introduced rope-a-doping. Brilliance. Especially after Foreman obliterated Frazier out of nowhere. For the Ali generation, I recommend watching Roy Jones Jr. The smaller version of Ali, and talk about the quickest hands you'll ever see. Woo!

[PleaseBlitz]

MMA fighters gas after 2-4 rounds (5 minute rds) while boxers fight up to 12 (3 min) rounds. (Edit- when Ali was in his prime they fought FIFTEEN.) Do not underestimate the amount of "wrestling" that goes on in a boxing match either and those guys are not allowed to even "touch" the canvas. Now make this fight go longer than the MMA championship 5 rounds. Say even 8 rounds.
[

Im sorry, but this is wrong. Possibly the BEST conditioned athletes in the world are collegiate and olympic wrestlers. Wrestling matches are 3 3-minute rounds with 30 second breaks in between. 9 minutes may not seem like that long, but trust me, its an eternity. Boxers are in great shape no doubt, but if conditioning isnt a draw, then the advantage lies with the MMA guy.



Put MMA gloves on MUHAMMAD ALI. He's the single-greatest puncher (counting speed, power, accuracy) in heavyweight boxing history. Can you imagine what he could do with one shot in those tiny knuckle pads? How many times he'd hit Chuck before Liddell even reached his take-down destination?

Once.


Also consider that Ali did in fact fight a wrestler in the 1970s by the name of Antonio Inoki, an old-school MMA king in Japan who's son is a Pride FC fighter today. In that bout (which admittedly was an "exhibition") Ali avoided take-downs all night on route to a 15 round decision.

At least be honest man.

Per wiki:


Though many of Inoki's matches were dismissed by the skeptics as worked, there has been little or no proof at all to suggest the validity of the worked theory and Inoki's mixed martial arts opponents have never stated that the matches were "fake". Most of the skepticism arose from the fact that Inoki was a professional wrestler, which automatically led to an assumption that the matches might have been worked. This has yet to dent the image of Inoki in the eyes of the Japanese fans, where he is still viewed as a very legitimate wrestler.[3]

The worked theory also arises from Inoki's match with Muhammad Ali. Inoki initially promised Ali a worked match to get him to fight in Japan, when the deal materialized Ali's camp feared that Inoki would turn the fight into a shoot, which many believe was Inoki's intention. Ali visited a professional wrestling match involving Inoki and witnessed Inoki's grappling ability. This led Ali's camp to restrict the fight to striking rules only, with grappling disallowed.

In the match, Ali landed a total of six punches to Inoki and Inoki kept to his back in a defensive position almost the full duration of the match, hitting Ali with a low kick repeatedly. The bout ended in a draw, 3-3. Ali left without a press conference and suffered damage to his legs as a result of Inoki's repeated leg kicks.

[Mooka]

I have the Ali vs Inoki. It's retarded and shouldn't be in this conversation. It's a complete exhibition. First of all Ali has his boxing gloves on and hardly throws a punch in the entire fight.

It's absolutely retarded. Inoki lays on his back and kicks Ali in the shins like a little girl the entire match.

[megared]

You call the blatent leaning in boxing WRESTLING? Have you ever faught on the ground with a wrestler or any kind of skilled ground fighter?

The stamina it takes to go the distance in boxing makes it a pepper/lean/catch breath/throw a flurry and hope fest. Are you saying these guys aren't in as good of shape as Ali? You are simply not informed of their training. Actually, it's pretty much common sense. They aren't going to take it any EASIER because the fight is 3 or 5 rounds. You get in the best shape you possibly can, and that's that. These guys are machines with all the technology and advances in fitness these days. And they work out just as hard as Ali did.

Again, saying Ali is the greatest puncher of all time can only be related to the way he punched. To combo with those gloves and wear your opponent down is much different than developing wild haymakers that are meant to knock you to the floor or make "holy ****" run through your mind. I gurentee the first time a boxer hears a shin whistle past his lips, he will go away from his traditional boxing technique and get tight and stiff. Chuck is also good at takedowns. He doesn't do the traditional tackling takedown such as an Ortiz or Couture would do. As soon as he sees his opponent off balance he pushes them over and down. If Ali slips in any way, he better jet back up in the opposite direction of where a martial artist is standing.

Ali's conditioning was incredible...he *did* go the distance, win decisions, take round after round of pounding (later in his career). In his prime, it was nothing to see him 'fresh' 12 rounds in, still dancing and orchestrating combos that defied most (if not all) of his opponents' conditioning.

You do realize that by the MMA gloves being smaller, Ali would land substantially more blows than having the oversized boxing gloves which reduced their chances of solid contact? You think a technically sound boxer is going to stand & eat haymakers, from slower opponents?

A cop could've probably taken down Ali in a grapple...whoopty do. Those are neutralization tactics, defensive tactics to be used on a "threat" (mostly law enforcement officials). Does that make him a better fighter, or reasonably imply that he could exchange blows with someone with world class speed?

I'm of the mindset that Jim Thorpe, Bo Jackson, Muhammad Ali are once-a-generation kind of athletes that would've been great in any era. You don't think people picked apart the way they trained and tried to emulate it? Or that if they had access to today's technology they wouldn't have been better?

Ali was a boxing mastermind, that took every advantage he had to show that you had no business questioning his dominance. He wasn't just physically gifted, he had the smarts along with instincts that have yet to be duplicated.

[Jaded-Dragon]

Man, I was actually enjoying this debate and seeing the tide slowly tip in Chucks favor, last time I looked he was up by 12, then, like magic, 70 people decided to vote for Ali during the last 6 hours that I have not been on the board.

Oh well, so much for "sportsmanship" of sorts.

[Jumbo]

Uhhhh how does that remind you of THAT? Sounds like you're so aware of your struggles in perfecting your game in bed that you have to vent it by comparing people who favor Chuck Liddell to being bad doin it. You boosting Ali's votes by 80 probably interprets how much you wish you could dominate in the sack. You are exposing your love making abilities, and you're trying to demean people who think MMA fighters could dominate someone who handicaps himself to being good with two hands, standing up, with mittens on. So in comparison, you probably hump as hard as you can, only do doggy style, and wear thick condoms so the girl's dryness doesn't rip it. Hmm, this is just silly. :ladiesman


Wow, do you have like all the action figures or something? :cool:

Mainly, I've been having fun in the thread and doiing what I think is a pretty good job of stimulating the conversation. :D

Plus, I actually know the topic very well at a core level. :)

You, on the other, seem to be representing Bozoville. :silly:

I have to agree with you that your final words in your post were silly, but most of what you have posted here has been pretty silly. As for taking the sex joke so seriously, you look like a clown turning it into a fifth-grade level personal attack on me. I have a feeling that's the level of your MA knowledge too. So you can learn, I didn't single you out with the comment, just made an open jab at the thread. But you took it to heart. Hit too close to home? As far as me "demeaning" anything related to MMA, once again, that's all in your head so take off the red nose and big floppy shoes. MA was a real part to my life for longer than you've been on the planet. Same with women, btw, "ladiesman" :D :laugh:

And if you get a little hot under the collar, that's ok, I stand by what I say overall, but I'm just having fun here, returning your serve (this time), and I like you anyway. :laugh:

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Umm yes, MMA guys vs possibly the greatest athlete in history. I would think that was a given.

I've watche Ali dodge punches for an entire round straight. Dodging, not blocking, dodging by moving his head. You think an MMA fighter is going to connect with a haymaker? That's just absurd. The only way Chuck is going to win this fight is if he gets Ali to the ground, that's it.


There's no kicking in the face in a street fight with Muhammad Ali, or Chuck Lidell, or most fighers trained in anything. A kick to the face leaves you completely unguarded and off-balance.

If Ali slips? Dude, seriously, have you seen Ali's footwork? It's unhuman, he aint slippin.

Ok man, real in depth stuff there. Seriously, who taught you how to kick, John Hall? Nick Novak? Who wrote the rules to street fighting? Why would they use kicks in the UFC and Pride when their opponents are animals? And if Ali ever did his side-step leaning dodge he'd get his leg battered in to a pulp. Tell Cro Cop kicks don't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3h5LIuKESY&mode=related&search=

[Mooka]

Ok man, real in depth stuff there. Seriously, who taught you how to kick, John Hall? Nick Novak? Who wrote the rules to street fighting? Why would they use kicks in the UFC and Pride when their opponents are animals? And if Ali ever did his side-step leaning dodge he'd get his leg battered in to a pulp. Tell Cro Cop kicks don't matter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3h5LIuKESY&mode=related&search= I'm talking about a street fight man, not in an MMA match. Cmon dude, MMA is still fighting with rules, in a ring, where you train for it. Are you trying to say that in a street fight Chuck Lidell would try to kick his opponent in the face? That's just retarded. He would bullrush the guy and batter him to a pulp.

[Chachie]

You call the blatent leaning in boxing WRESTLING? Have you ever faught on the ground with a wrestler or any kind of skilled ground fighter?

Yes I am and yes I have.




The stamina it takes to go the distance in boxing makes it a pepper/lean/catch breath/throw a flurry and hope fest. Are you saying these guys aren't in as good of shape as Ali? You are simply not informed of their training. Actually, it's pretty much common sense. They aren't going to take it any EASIER because the fight is 3 or 5 rounds. You get in the best shape you possibly can, and that's that. These guys are machines with all the technology and advances in fitness these days. And they work out just as hard as Ali did.


You previously remarked about a boxer's legs and where their power comes from but now you call it a pepper/lean fest. I call BS on this one.

FIFTEEN rounds in Ali's day. Think about it.

I'm not saying they don't train as hard, I'm saying Ali was the best trainee ever. Once again, we're not talking about any boxer. you're young though. I can see why you equate Ali with most boxers.





Again, saying Ali is the greatest puncher of all time can only be related to the way he punched.

Please explain, I'm not sure what you mean by this. No matter "how" he punched- and he could punch in 50 different ways- it hurt or induced sleep.




To combo with those gloves and wear your opponent down is much different than developing wild haymakers that are meant to knock you to the floor or make "holy ****" run through your mind. I gurentee the first time a boxer hears a shin whistle past his lips, he will go away from his traditional boxing technique and get tight and stiff.


Now imagine ONE jab (just a jab) from Muhammad Ali with those MMA gloves on. Also, Ali has taken punches/elbows/pushing around from George Foreman, Ernie Shavers, Joe Frazier, and Ken Norton. He's THE MASTER at dodging or diminishing oncoming attacks with head movement. Chuck has little head movement in his game. Ali is trained to see lightning fast punches coming and could see a kick being wound up from a mile away. He also faced leg kicks ALL NIGHT from Antonio Inoki for 15 rounds and never broke.




Chuck is also good at takedowns. He doesn't do the traditional tackling takedown such as an Ortiz or Couture would do. As soon as he sees his opponent off balance he pushes them over and down. If Ali slips in any way, he better jet back up in the opposite direction of where a martial artist is standing.


I won't argue that if Chuck gets him on the ground it's a new game.
Keep in mind, though, that Ali outweighs Liddell by about 20-30 pounds and has HUGE legs. It'll be tough to get him off those legs that are trained to stick and move and get leaned on for (again) FIFTEEN rounds. I'm also reminding you that I have seen Ali avoid wresting take-downs from a true wrestler and do it well. You've never seen Chuck take a punch from a true boxer.

This chat could go on forever and it's a great thread. I'm simply telling you that I have the advantage here of having seen most of both careers and I don't think Liddell or any non-heavyweight MMA fighter could touch Ali.

[Chachie]

Oh and if this is going to turn to street-fighting, Ali would MURDER Chuck Liddell. You should have seen the guillotine choke he put on Joe Frazier on (I believe) the Mike Douglas show when they had a scuffle during promo of their 2nd bout. :)

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Wow, do you have like all the action figures or something? :cool:

Mainly, I've been having fun in the thread and doiing what I think is a pretty good job of stimulating the conversation. :D

Plus, I actually know the topic very well at a core level. :)

You, on the other, seem to be representing Bozoville. :silly:

I have to agree with you that your final words in your post were silly, but most of what you have posted here has been pretty silly. As for taking the sex joke so seriously, you look like a clown turning it into a fifth-grade level personal attack on me. I have a feeling that's the level of your MA knowledge too. So you can learn, I didn't single you out with the comment, just made an open jab at the thread. But you took it to heart. Hit too close to home? As far as me "demeaning" anything related to MMA, once again, that's all in your head so take off the red nose and big floppy shoes. MA was a real part to my life for longer than you've been on the planet. Same with women, btw, "ladiesman" :D :laugh:

And if you get a little hot under the collar, that's ok, I stand by what I say overall, but I'm just having fun here, returning your serve (this time), and I like you anyway. :laugh:

Hey brother, you took the first cheapshot, added 80 votes, said we reminded you of people that read porn magazines cuz they couldn't get any? So I guess I penalized you a point. Be glad I didn't penalize you a viagra. ;) ;)

[Jumbo]

Hey brother, you took the first cheapshot, added 80 votes, said we reminded you of people that read porn magazines cuz they couldn't get any? So I guess I penalized you a point. Be glad I didn't penalize you a viagra. ;) ;)


I didn't do anything to the poll. I didn't say anything about porn mags (I said "read about it") or say anything about "couldn't get any"--agian, it seems you may have some issues on this matter. ;) ;) .

Take time to comprehend what you read and you might better undertand the jab. And I didn't take any cheap shots, though I gave you a shot back after you came at me personally. No problemo :) . And who is "we?" Do you have a club? Are you the leader? I do take back the "liking you" part :laugh: and have corrected it to note your last two posts to me personally have cast you more as both ignorant and a jackass. :)

For the rest of us: just for fun---


Butterbean was this unskilled huge fat slob who was powerful. When times were tight and good fights more rare, he would get put in the ring. He hit like tank but was slow and unskilled. After even the smaller boxing orgs dropped off giving him fights (he could still draw curiosity types in slow times) he went into MMA where initially had real success and some bad losses (this guy sucked in the boxing ring--big claim to fame was knocking Holmes down once). Here's a 411 on old Butterbean:


"Butterbean's MMA record is currently 10 wins (4 knockouts and 6 submissions), 3 losses and 1 draw. He is training with American Top Team to improve his ground game.[5] Sherdog has Esch ranked as the #5 Super-Heavyweight in the world across all MMA organizations after his victory over James Thompson.[6]"

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Ok I'll try to quote like you, but since you're a boxer I might not be able to last much longer, lol. :)


Yes I am and yes I have.

Funny, that's, well, just funny.


You previously remarked about a boxer's legs and where their power comes from but now you call it a pepper/lean fest. I call BS on this one.

I actually had two other steps after those. You can't tell me boxers don't pepper with pointless punches rather than, well to use an ironic pun, gain points. The periodical flurries are where boxers gain their opportunities, which usually wears them out for another rest and pepper moment.


FIFTEEN rounds in Ali's day. Think about it.

Right. That is a true test of endurance. Even leaning on your opponent isn't enough rest later in those insane 15 round fights. But I don't think I've ever watched more than 2 or 3 standup wars in MMA that have gone the distance.

This thing about boxers legs being stronger...flexability and muscular agility takes a back seat to their legs being something of a bouncing tree stump. A few nice bops in a support system that never gets touched would change them instantly. Punching AROUND the groin is perfectly legal. And Chuck doused some gear-lowering haymakers to Tito Ortiz's thighs in his last title defense.


I'm not saying they don't train as hard, I'm saying Ali was the best trainee ever. Once again, we're not talking about any boxer. you're young though. I can see why you equate Ali with most boxers.

I'm not my man. I think Ali is the best boxer ever. I don't know where I came off comparing him to most boxers, but when you're in the same sport there will be some generalizations. Sorry, Babe Ruth hit a lot of homeruns but he still swung a wooden baseball bat. Does that mean he'd be the best cricket player, too? No, just as Chuck wouldn't be much of a boxer. He stalks for the knockout all the time, there is no pepper punching in MMA unless you're firm against your opponent on the cage or on the ground.




Please explain, I'm not sure what you mean by this. No matter "how" he punched- and he could punch in 50 different ways- it hurt or induced sleep.

Well you wouldn't see Ali reach back and throw a roundhouse from Yukon Territory and end up in Florida. He didn't need to do that to capture his opponent in a threatening combination. But MMA fighters have the luxury of doing this because the opponent is worried about 12 other things happening at the same time. The game is about ending the fight at the first sign of an opening. I don't believe Ali is acustomed to seeing a ghosted jab and follow up high kick. Or going for the knockout the first missed parry he sees.



Now imagine ONE jab (just a jab) from Muhammad Ali with those MMA gloves on. Also, Ali has taken punches/elbows/pushing around from George Foreman, Ernie Shavers, Joe Frazier, and Ken Norton. He's THE MASTER at dodging or diminishing oncoming attacks with head movement. Chuck has little head movement in his game. Ali is trained to see lightning fast punches coming and could see a kick being wound up from a mile away. He also faced leg kicks ALL NIGHT from Antonio Inoki for 15 rounds and never broke.

Elbows? Pushing? Not even. Do you have a video of this Inoki fight? Never heard of him. It's simply impossible to say he can see a kick from a mile away when the point is for your opponent to not see the kick because he's mixed up defending a methodical combination. Ali's head was fast, but you can do anything from stomp on a guy's toes to elbow the crown of their skull in the UFC.


I won't argue that if Chuck gets him on the ground it's a new game.
Keep in mind, though, that Ali outweighs Liddell by about 20-30 pounds and has HUGE legs. It'll be tough to get him off those legs that are trained to stick and move and get leaned on for (again) FIFTEEN rounds. I'm also reminding you that I have seen Ali avoid wresting take-downs from a true wrestler and do it well. You've never seen Chuck take a punch from a true boxer.

That's true about Chuck not seeing punches from a true boxer. But I doubt a boxer would be able to land his best stuff with Liddell flailing his body around in ways a boxer has never seen. The uniqueness of Ali may give him an advantage here, but it's still something he has never seen before.

The weight advantage is the question I posed at the end of my first post. This is the biggest factor in my opinion. Could Chuck topple over Ali? We'll never know, that's the beauty of this thread. lol.


This chat could go on forever and it's a great thread. I'm simply telling you that I have the advantage here of having seen most of both careers and I don't think Liddell or any non-heavyweight MMA fighter could touch Ali.

Fair enough. I believe the ora surrounding Ali might have you a little influenced due to growing up with his name and face all over the world. But I guess the same can be said about Chuck these days. For a kid who loved 4 sports, I only loved one that wasn't main stream at ALL. And thanks to Liddell, it is blossoming.

[herrmag]

"Butterbean's MMA record is currently 10 wins (4 knockouts and 6 submissions), 3 losses and 1 draw. He is training with American Top Team to improve his ground game.[5] Sherdog has Esch ranked as the #5 Super-Heavyweight in the world across all MMA organizations after his victory over James Thompson.[6]"

Well, as a person that's "in the know", I've seen at least 4-5 of Butterbean's fights. Let's not pretend that he is fighting anyone of caliber. In fact, some (maybe most) of his fights have been against ex-boxers. I've never seen anyone even try to take him down, although I bet in all of his losses that's what happened.

As far as being ranked the #5 super-heavyweight; sherdog is a popularity contest, and their rankings have always been bogus (although they do have some interesting stuff there). Also, how many superheavyweights are there in the world? It is undoubtedly the weakest division of any sport. The UFC doesn't even have a super-heavyweight division, so that should speak volumes about the quality of fighters in that class.

[Jumbo]

I knew when I threw it out there, I could see plenty of good rebuttal opportunity. But it looked like fun. :D Just to stay with ole beanhead a bit:


"Esch (his real name) regrouped, going 6-0-1 in appearances in King of the Cage, Fightfest, and Rumble on the Rock including a TKO stoppage of Cabbage Correira. Butterbean was scheduled to fight K-1 legend Mark Hunt at Pride FC's first North American show on October 21, 2006. Due to an injury Hunt sustained in training, Esch was matched up against Irish-American professional wrestler and mixed martial artist Sean O'Haire, whom he defeated via knockout at 30 seconds in the first round. Butterbean's only other loss came to then Cage Rage Championships World Heavyweight Champion, Rob Broughton. On February 10, Butterbean rebounded by knocking out James Thompson 43 seconds into the first round at Cage Rage 20. Butterbean then defeated Zuluzinho via submission at PRIDE 34 on April 8, 2007"

Dude used submission!! Did he fall on him, hermagg??? :laugh:

Nah, I know he lost a lot of weight. I think he's still over 250 or so. Do you know?

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I didn't do anything to the poll. I didn't say anything about porn mags (I said "read about it") or say anything about "couldn't get any"--agian, it seems you may have some issues on this matter. ;) ;) .

Take time to comprehend what you read and you might better undertand the jab. And I didn't take any cheap shots, though I gave you a shot back after you came at me personally. No problemo :) . And who is "we?" Do you have a club? Are you the leader? I do take back the "liking you" part :laugh: and have corrected it to note your last two posts to me personally have cast you more as both ignorant and a jackass. :)

For the rest of us: just for fun---


Butterbean was this unskilled huge fat slob who was powerful. When times were tight and good fights more rare, he would get put in the ring. He hit like tank but was slow and unskilled. After even the smaller boxing orgs dropped off giving him fights (he could still draw curiosity types in slow times) he went into MMA where initially had real success and some bad losses (this guy sucked in the boxing ring--big claim to fame was knocking Holmes down once). Here's a 411 on old Butterbean:


"Butterbean's MMA record is currently 10 wins (4 knockouts and 6 submissions), 3 losses and 1 draw. He is training with American Top Team to improve his ground game.[5] Sherdog has Esch ranked as the #5 Super-Heavyweight in the world across all MMA organizations after his victory over James Thompson.[6]"

Woahhhhh, I swear I won't take your VIAGRA! hahaha! Darn man, thought I was making amends with that last post to you. Maybe I misread you, but a fellow answered my question about the poll boost and your name came up.


Pretty true, chuck.

This reminds me of those conversations about sexual expertise between a guy who has been with a lot of women over a long period of time and done very well, and a bunch of guys who read about it, watch others doing it, talk about it, and "practice" it a lot, but still don't know near as much about the real thing as they think they do. :laugh:

This looked like a shot at the voters for Chuck, and it was the only post about the thread you made until I asked who messed with the poll. Then PleaseBlitz said you thought we were "uninformed." I figured YOU boosted it. And along with the post I just quoted it seemed like a little desperation in you. :laugh: Sorry man. Cheers to ya?

[Baculus]

I love both fighters, but boxers never fare well against MMA fighters. Chuck is a modern fighter: He can kick, clench, and ground N pound. He just has too many tools for a boxer, even one as great and legendary as Ali. Once you see a boxer fight a mixed martial artist, you quickly realize that may elements of their style is out of place for their fight. Their lead leg becomes a target for kicks, their hands are too high, they don't know how to defend well against a muy thai clench (which often results in devasting knees against the boxer), and they have no take down defense with little sprawl or any knowledge of the guard when they are on the ground.

We have seen, time and time again in mixed martial arts, great fighters in a particular style taken out of their water by an opponent skilled in a style that they aren't familiar with or cannot defend against. It is embarrassing to see a great fighter in a particular style humbled in such a fashion, and I fear the same would happen to Ali.

What will Ali do if Chuck simply leg kicks him until he cannot walk? I've seen MMA fights end when a fighter's thigh is so bruised, he simply cannot walk at all. (And we saw, in that previously posted video, what just a wrestler did to Ali's leg. Imagine what the Ice Man would do to that same leg...) Chuck is too good at moving to simply be caught by Ali's punches, let alone a mere jab. What will Ali do if Liddell clenches him and knees him in the face, or Chuck leg trips him, gets a full mount, and ground and pounds him until Ali is knocked out? Keep in mind that a muy thai clench is much different then a boxing clench: Often, the fighters hands are tie up in an underarm clench while the fighters engage in knee strikes. Nevermind behind the clenches which can result in hard knee strikes to the face and head. And not to mention Chuck's use of elbows or forearms in the clench, angles of attack that Ali, or any boxer for that manner, has simply not trained to defend against.

And that is the thing: Mixed martial artists, using different fighting styles, use angles of attack that boxers just do not train against, and it is a HUGE disadvantage. And this is coming from a person that roots for the boxer when he fights in such a disadvantage.

There are just too many tools that a well-rounded fighter like Chuck can use against boxing, a one-dimensional style. Especially in a situation, such as a street fight, where multi-discipline training is much more effective, considering that most such fights end up on the ground. And while Chuck does not usually try to go to the ground, he does have some ground skills. (Though he will prefer to sprawl and brawl if at all possible...)

But hey, you never know; it is an interesting debate! With all of the talk, you can never count out Ali!

[Baculus]

BTW, whoever said that MMA fighters do not jab hasn't watched a lot of MMA fights. Of course they jab - most fighters these days are trained in boxing. It just depends on the fighter and how important stand up fighting is to their style. For example, CropCop's standup is much different then Liddell's: Mirko is much more precise while Ice Man uses more power, looping hooks. (Which is why I think CropCop would outbox Chuck if the two ever meet in the ring. It is similiar to what happened to Wanderlei Silva, who throws punches similiar to Liddell's...)

[Jumbo]

Doublestroke, even if you had zinged an antagonistical post back, and even if it went over the line, I gave back all I needed to, and I'd already decided I was only going to post: "You can have the last word on this doublestroke, and I don't carry any grudge when I leave."

For the record--I was deliberately being over-the-top a bit, without personally attacking anybody, just for fun and to keep the topic rolling. I know how young guys (and some of us older ones) get into talking about cars, girls, or fighting. ;)

Now I meant what I said regarding my opinions, but the fact is, as I indicated, I respect and even love all these athlete’s efforts and skills and all of the arts themselves. Like I also said, I am hardly a stranger to having given a great slice of my time and energy in life to these things. So no matter what anybody thinks about what, to me all these skilled fighters are very formidable people who work very, very hard and deserve real respect. Now their fans….as with any sport...it's a case by case deal. ;) :laugh: :cheers:

And there is no MMA who's ever lived who would have beat Ali, or even have a solid chance unless the fight was in a closet. :cool:

[Jaded-Dragon]

Nah, Jumbo is the only Ali supporter to bring up any kind of fact, stat, or fight strategy. everybody else has just said "Are you kidding? Ali would destroy him because he has a jab". While I believe there have been 3 or so Chuck supporters debating about different strategies and tactics that would be to Chuck's advantage.

[Baculus]

Jumo, please read my posts I recently posted. I personally feel that Ali would lose, and partially because boxers just do not fare well against mixed style fighters. (And I am not sure how many MMA fights you have watched...)

[JMS]

Ali was the greatest fighter ever. In what is arguable the greatest time of boxing ever. There is no comparison, how could there be.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Doublestroke, even if you had zinged an antagonistical post back, and even if it went over the line, I gave back all I needed to, and I'd already decided I was only going to post: "You can have the last word on this doublestroke, and I don't carry any grudge when I leave."

For the record--I was deliberately being over-the-top a bit, without personally attacking anybody, just for fun and to keep the topic rolling. I know how young guys (and some of us older ones) get into talking about cars, girls, or fighting. ;)

Now I meant what I said regarding my opinions, but the fact is, as I indicated, I respect and even love all these athlete’s efforts and skills and all of the arts themselves. Like I also said, I am hardly a stranger to having given a great slice of my time and energy in life to these things. So no matter what anybody thinks about what, to me all these skilled fighters are very formidable people who work very, very hard and deserve real respect. Now their fans….as with any sport...it's a case by case deal. ;) :laugh: :cheers:

And there is no MMA who's ever lived who would have beat Ali, or even have a solid chance unless the fight was in a closet. :cool:

I got ya, sir. Sorry for any misunderstanding. Pardon my hazyness everybody. Not a lot of sleep, long day yesterday, even trained with my friend with my boxing only, go freaking figure. I figured I'd proove the "but boxings longer" folks wrong and show them we martial artists have endurance too. But they're starting to win their point.

:snore: :yikes: :rubeyes: :munchout:

[Baculus]

Ali was the greatest fighter ever. In what is arguable the greatest time of boxing ever. There is no comparison, how could there be.

We are not just talking about boxing. Comparing Chuck's boxing to Ali, of course, wouldn't compare. We are discussing a fight in which more then just stand-up rules are allowed, which puts Ali at a disadvantage. Of course there is a comparision, since Ali could be defeated using styles in which he may be unfamiliar.

Think of Hoyce Gracie vs Ali: Could you discuss that? Of course you could, because Hoyce is using a style that can neutralize Ali's greatest assets: His hands. Hoyce, straight up, would beat Ali, unless Ali could knock out Gracie before Gracie shoot Ali, took him to the ground, and used BJJ to reduce Ali's striking ability.

And that is the point of this discussion: Ice Man has abilities that may very well neutralize Ali's fantastic hands and punching abilities.

I would dare say that many folks here have not watched many mixed martial artist fights.

[herrmag]

I
Dude used submission!! Did he fall on him, hermagg??? :laugh:

Nah, I know he lost a lot of weight. I think he's still over 250 or so. Do you know?

That's a possibility seeing as he still weighs 350 lbs. according to subfighter.com. :laugh:

Again, he hasn't beaten any quality MMA guys, mostly "tough guys" that like to go in the ring and brawl. A boxer should always win those types of fights. And yes, he has sub'd a couple of people, but that doesn't mean anything unless he sub'd someone that knew what they were doing. He did fight a Japanese guy that he greatly outweighed by about 170 lbs. (Minowa) and was sub'd in under 5 minutes.

Had he fought Mark Hunt and won, I would change my whole perspective on the matter. However, despite the weight advantage, Hunt would've killed him.

As for any MMA fighter beating Ali; I THINK Lidell could do it, but I KNOW Fedor Emelianenko could. :evil: :redpunch:

[megared]

Nah, Jumbo is the only Ali supporter to bring up any kind of fact, stat, or fight strategy. everybody else has just said "Are you kidding? Ali would destroy him because he has a jab". While I believe there have been 3 or so Chuck supporters debating about different strategies and tactics that would be to Chuck's advantage.

Nah, all it's been is a bunch of people thinking that Ali (out of his prime) would be teleported out of Zaire into MMA fight with Liddell, with the thought that he'd have no time to prepare himself for all the things you've mentioned. You're comparing other boxers' (who I might mention would've stayed in boxing if they were any good) success/lack of thereof in MMA...to what Muhammad Ali would've done or was capable of doing...

Otherwise, why would you believe that someone that has actually been defeated by people with boxing training would compare to the best HW to ever lace 'em up? I'd easily go on record to say that people trained to take the quickest motion your body can make in an offensive manner (the jab) would be absolutely fine against heymakers or kicks, which take infinitely longer to execute. Clinches wouldn't be an issue because Ali didn't take body shots, he'd use the clinch to push you back into his safe zone. Liddell's a striker that doesn't have the speed, power, accuracy, quickness, reach that match Ali...in any aspect.

[HEavyJumbo85]

I'd like to see Chuck attempt to get Ali off of his feet. Ali would grab him and repeadedly punch Chuck in the back of the head, push him away and throw a serious right hook, Chuck would go down and Muhammad would choke him out.

That's how it would go...

[Baculus]

Clinches wouldn't be an issue because Ali didn't take body shots, he'd use the clinch to push you back into his safe zone. Liddell's a striker that doesn't have the speed, power, accuracy, quickness, reach that match Ali...in any aspect.

Of course clinches would play a HUGE role in the fight. Are you familiar with muy thai clinches? They are different then boxing clinches and "tie-ups" and are intended to allow different types of striking then boxing. Just clinching by itself can win a match: A hard knee to an opponents face can do wonders. Or a good forearm, elbow, and such strikes normally not allowed in the boxing ring.

Have you watched Liddell strike? He hits hard, and hard and as heck. I wouldn't say he is the hardest puncher ever, but he can KO any fighter. And you have to understand that such a fight wouldn't just involve punching. What if Ice Man decided he wasn't going to just exchange punches, but started to deliver leg kicks to Ali's head, body, and legs?

And that is the point: Too many Ali supporters are thinking in one-dimensional terms, assuming that Chuck would merely stand toe-to-toe and just box Ali. Considering that Chuck does use other types of striking, that just an attempt to frame the fight in a manner that would be to Ali's advantage, which is rather unrealistic.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

For whoever thinks kicks don't have a place in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trh9e0vA26U

[Baculus]

I'd like to see Chuck attempt to get Ali off of his feet. Ali would grab him and repeadedly punch Chuck in the back of the head, push him away and throw a serious right hook, Chuck would go down and Muhammad would choke him out.

That's how it would go...

I just have to say that this sounds absurd. Are we talking about a clumsy MMA match here from 1995? LOL. And Ali choking Chuck out? Wow - that is really something.

Ali has no sprawl, no take down defense - he would go down fast. And not because he is a slouch, but he just doesn't know how to defend against a shoot or take down. I just really question Ali's grappling skills, would very well may be key.

A fighter on the mat is in danger of knees, elbows, and various punches: It would be BAD for Ali. Ali's only, only chance of winning is to be able to slip in punches and KO Ice Man. That is it - he doesn't have anything else, because he isn't TRAINED in anything else. And I seriously doubt he could prepare enough to actually still be effective in his defenses.

[Baculus]

For whoever thinks kicks don't have a place in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trh9e0vA26U

Heh - it was funny that I was just talking about CropCop's jab. Then his patented LHK to the head. Ow.

Mirko is the man.

[HEavyJumbo85]

For whoever thinks kicks don't have a place in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trh9e0vA26U

Kicking doesn't have a place in fighting. Fighters that kick can't punch. They only place kicking has a place is professional wrestling. If you're kicking in a fight, you might as well be using a steel chair or any other weapon because it's cheap. That's why kickboxing is such a stupid sport.

[PleaseBlitz]

I'd like to see Chuck attempt to get Ali off of his feet. Ali would grab him and repeadedly punch Chuck in the back of the head, push him away and throw a serious right hook, Chuck would go down and Muhammad would choke him out.

That's how it would go...

:laugh: Once Ali grabbed Liddell, the fight would end within 45 seconds and Ali wouldnt been the winner.

Baculus is right, the one-dimensional fighter is at a huge disadvantage.

When facing boxers twice his size, Royce Gracie would take a running start from across the ring and dive at their legs. Every single time, he would eventually take them down and submit them. The boxers never even got a chance to throw a punch at range.

[HOF44]

Yea but Jack Bauer would kick both there asses!!!!

[Baculus]

Kicking doesn't have a place in fighting. Fighters that kick can't punch. They only place kicking has a place is professional wrestling. If you're kicking in a fight, you might as well be using a steel chair or any other weapon because it's cheap. That's why kickboxing is such a stupid sport.

Are you kidding me? CropCop is a former K-1 kickboxer: Notice the BOXER in kick boxer. He is excellent with his hands as well as his feet. I would suggest you watch any kickboxing, K-1, or muy thai, let alone an MMA match, and tell me these guys can't box.

Of course kicking has a place in fighting - why would you say otherwise? Especially if you are talking about a street fight where you can use anything (other then eye gouges, or we are then talking about a death match). Next you are going to tell me that grappling has no place in fighting?

Kicking is one of the most exciting elements of MMA, let alone martial arts. If you want pure stand-up, then watch boxing. But after watching mixed style fighting, it is hard to watch just boxing: It just isn't as exciting as a fight that is multi-dimensional.

[PleaseBlitz]

Clearly..... elbows, knees, and kicking, as well as submissions and chokes have no place in fighting. Might as well be the circus.

[Baculus]

Clearly..... elbows, knees, and kicking, as well as submissions and chokes have no place in fighting. Might as well be the circus.

True. Only the Queensbury rules of fighting is real fighting, right? ;-)

[megared]

Of course clinches would play a HUGE role in the fight. Are you familiar with muy thai clinches? They are different then boxing clinches and "tie-ups" and are intended to allow different types of striking then boxing. Just clinching by itself can win a match: A hard knee to an opponents face can do wonders. Or a good forearm, elbow, and such strikes normally not allowed in the boxing ring.

Have you watched Liddell strike? He hits hard, and hard and as heck. I wouldn't say he is the hardest puncher ever, but he can KO any fighter. And you have to understand that such a fight wouldn't just involve punching. What if Ice Man decided he wasn't going to just exchange punches, but started to deliver leg kicks to Ali's head, body, and legs?

And that is the point: Too many Ali supporters are thinking in one-dimensional terms, assuming that Chuck would merely stand toe-to-toe and just box Ali. Considering that Chuck does use other types of striking, that just an attempt to frame the fight in a manner that would be to Ali's advantage, which is rather unrealistic.

What decisive advantage in clinching would Lidell hold over Ali? Ali had perhaps the best distance, perception, & movement you can name of any disciplined fighter...and on top of that was heavier in his prime, stronger & smarter. Let's not forget about the people he held his own in clinches with...simply put if he didn't want Chuck in on him that close, there's almost no way he would've gotten there without taking MANY jabs.

C'mon, KO *any* fighter? So you'd put Lidell's power anywhere in the neighborhood of George Foreman? Joe Frazier's hook? Sonny Liston? Earnie Shavers?

[HEavyJumbo85]

I just have to say that this sounds absurd. Are we talking about a clumsy MMA match here from 1995? LOL. And Ali choking Chuck out? Wow - that is really something.

Ali has no sprawl, no take down defense - he would go down fast. And not because he is a slouch, but he just doesn't know how to defend against a shoot or take down. I just really question Ali's grappling skills, would very well may be key.

A fighter on the mat is in danger of knees, elbows, and various punches: It would be BAD for Ali. Ali's only, only chance of winning is to be able to slip in punches and KO Ice Man. That is it - he doesn't have anything else, because he isn't TRAINED in anything else. And I seriously doubt he could prepare enough to actually still be effective in his defenses.

How about the Ole defense. Muhammad could move quicker than anyone possibly in the history of the world. The way he bounced in the ring and ducked away from punches. If we're talking agility, there is no one I have ever seen that had more of it than Ali.

Also if you read my previous post, what would defense have to do with anything. What is Chuck going to do try and kick him? Charge him?

Chuck comes at him, Ali will move or punch chuck in the face. Then Muhammad would hold Chuck and proceed with Rabbit punches to the back of the head. Then he would punch him in the face. Im sure Ali could execute the hand around the throat choke manuever.

[Jumbo]

Well, Baculus, I am maybe worn down a tad on this one, and I"ve avoided getting too anecdotal or "giving credentials" on purpose, but I will say that while I've watched a fair numner of MMA bouts, I am not just going by viewing but also by doing. Believe me, the MMA grappling and strikes that have become so mainstream in fans' knoweldge existed thirty years ago among the people engaged in these actitivites. Just as Karate, Tae Kwan Do, Kung-Fu, and Jui-jitsu existed well before the U.S. craze of Asian chop-socky flicks in the early seventies and American TV shows/movies picking up on "karate chops" in the late 60's.

Anyway, this may be my last post, and honest, I seek to change zero minds, what anyone's opinion is I think is fine (except about the Ali thing)---having the interest is what counts most. ;)

One thing to say, again, is every strategic point someone has made about the fighting tactics a MMA can do, that a boxer doesn't employ, are more than familiar to me, and I assume to many others. So, when someone argues "MMA guys grapple and kick and are fast too...etc etc ", is it assumed that the guys taking Ali's case somehow aren't aware of these things???

Here's the deal (and Lee was one of the best at demonstrating this--as was a good friend of mine Steve Kamanowa)--if you are in a ring and have pro boxing skills and are smart (you don't get to mid-to top pro level <my constant ref point in the thread> unless you are) it is relatively easy to stay back from low kicks and move in on high kicks. It does take focused patience to wait for the kicks and let them miss. The boxers chewed up in MMA examples are likely hacks, just as Hermagg points out that Butterbean's vicoties (save one or two maybe) were against lesser MMA dudes.

No blow travels less distance than a hand blow to face or torso--less reaction time, less physiological/cognitive time etc. They are the quickest blows you can land, and against the most vulnerable attack points (save breaking a knee, ankle, or a groin-stirke). And yes, I know about the debilitating effect of thigh-strikes, stay with me.

A high skill-level boxer will hit harder, faster, with greater accuracy, and with more deliberate targeting of the face/torso, because of training focus and time spent than his equivalent skill-level MMA guy who trains spreading his techniques around a myriad of choices. His audience, his sport, and his success demand the differecne for both competitors.

The boxer, as has been pointed out, works tremendously on legs and wind, and movement in all directions with evasion, and then moving in for quick and potent, energy-sapping strikes, or big pay-off blows, and that’s what he’ll need as well in the MMA fight. I'm not saying MMA's don't train there, but to my direct knowledge they train notably less in those ares on the average. I'm mainly saying that those well-developed components of the pro boxer will serve him well in our imaginary bout.

The points made about boxers having regular experience dealing with tying up, clenches, going 15 rounds, and hitting a guy who goes for your legs are all relevant, but I doubt the smart boxer will even allow the MMA guy get there, as opposed to dancing back or to the side and then striking. But if he does "get there", the boxer is not going to just “go down” defenselessly. And just like MMA guys, these boxers are usually come from some pretty tough street backgrounds.

I’m one who sees good reason for agreeing that boxing is rightfully called a fighting science by sports physiologists and sporting experts, as well as an art.

When you receive training on personal combat for when your life is at stake (as I also pointed out), kicking techniques are the last thing advised. Choking and leverage moves are certainly taught--and no boxing per se. Mainly because boxing takes years to learn to do well. The main piece of info in bringing that up is indicate how ineffectual kicking can be against a smart opponent or when everything is at stake. It is certainly flashy, and in a sport that demands it, you're going to see some great kicks. But even in MMA it's submission and hand strikes far more than kicking that play the big role. Even counting the draining thigh kicks--which sometimes is just the commentators doing their job ;) Most of those guys seem to kick as little as they can get away with in a match--becuase it's generally more risky and less effective and they know it.

Lee thought boxing was the highest skill form---read him--he felt boxing was the state of the art for man to man unarmed combat. He is not alone, but to get to that level takes way more time, rarer talent, and rarer physiology.

When not promoting their field off, the Randy Coulter's and Royce Gracie's have often acknowledged top rank boxing as the ultimate level of unarmed man to man combat. That is still the ring by which all other are judged. That heavyweight championship belt is not revered above all others out of ignorance or simply tradition. People who know these things for real know that it is till the pinnacle of all fighting arts, and Ali was arguably the best ever. By the way--for ten years, up until I was about 26 or so, I argued MA over boxing, too.

OK, fight on you maniacs, I have to go read some porno. :laugh:

[PleaseBlitz]

What decisive advantage in clinching would Lidell hold over Ali? Ali had perhaps the best distance, perception, & movement you can name of any disciplined fighter...and on top of that was heavier in his prime, stronger & smarter. Let's not forget about the people he held his own in clinches with...simply put if he didn't want Chuck in on him that close, there's almost no way he would've gotten there without taking MANY jabs.



C'mon man, read the thread. What decisive advantage in clinching would Liddell hold over Ali? How about the fact that he is trained in takedowns and throws from that position to take Ali to the ground, at which point the fight is over.

[.Guy.]

Proof (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KoMzRLGukxA) that Ali would rape Liddell.

[Chachie]

Great thread. As is the usual around here, it is rare that someone leaves a thread with their mind changed. Both sides of this argument will invent new wrinkles to keep it going.
I'm gonna bow out now because my opinion won't change either. If the fight ended while standing, Chuck would be sleeping. If the fight ended on the ground, Ali would be snoozing in a rear-naked choke.

Does this appease all comers? :)


:applause: Kick-azz thread. Keep e'm coming.

[HEavyJumbo85]

OK, fight on you maniacs, I have to go read some porno. :laugh:

Jumbo, Thank you for taking the time to shut down those who for some reason believe that Lidell has a chance against Ali.

[PleaseBlitz]

Jumbo's post

Youre right, except for assumming that a boxer would be able to stop a takedown attempt by a wrestler. They wouldnt, and thats why Liddell would win.

A jab simply does not have enough force behind it to stop at 200 lb object moving at you at a high rate of speed. Its simple physics. Try this experiment. Go to a boxing gym. Find a heavy bag (these are typically <100lbs) and have a buddy pull it away from you and then swing it at you as hard as he can. See if you can stop its momentum with one jab.

The fight goes to the ground within 30 seconds.

Also, saying that top MMA fighters arent in as good or better shape than boxers is incorrect as well.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Youre right, except for assumming that a boxer would be able to stop a takedown attempt by a wrestler. They wouldnt, and thats why Liddell would win.

A jab simply does not have enough force behind it to stop at 200 lb object moving at you at a high rate of speed. Its simple physics. Try this experiment. Go to a boxing gym. Find a heavy bag (these are typically <100lbs) and have a buddy pull it away from you and then swing it at you as hard as he can. See if you can stop its momentum with one jab.

The fight goes to the ground within 30 seconds.

Also, saying that top MMA fighters arent in as good or better shape than boxers is incorrect as well.

ALI WOULD MOVE OUT OF THE WAY

[PleaseBlitz]

ALI WOULD MOVE OUT OF THE WAY


You've never wrestled, have you? Its really not that simple.

[Baculus]

How about the Ole defense. Muhammad could move quicker than anyone possibly in the history of the world. The way he bounced in the ring and ducked away from punches. If we're talking agility, there is no one I have ever seen that had more of it than Ali.

Also if you read my previous post, what would defense have to do with anything. What is Chuck going to do try and kick him? Charge him?

Chuck comes at him, Ali will move or punch chuck in the face. Then Muhammad would hold Chuck and proceed with Rabbit punches to the back of the head. Then he would punch him in the face. Im sure Ali could execute the hand around the throat choke manuever.

What about the ole defense? That may be good against a lumbering street fighter who is going against you head first, like some charging bull. An "ole" is not the best defense against a shoot-attempt, because you really put your feet and hips out of position if your "ole" isn't very successful. Plus, for anyone that has wrestled, an "charge" isn't even necessary for a take-down.

You are assuming that, to take down Ali, it would requre a "shoot." Which isn't true. One of the best positions to take down an opponent is, in fact, from the clinch, and if Ali has a typical "stand-up" boxing stance, he will be very easy to take down. Leg trips are much easier against an opponent in such a stance (let alone using other take-downs and throws...)

The only reply you have is to suggest that Chuck, or any MMA for that matter, is some some untrained street fighter that will clumsy charge Ali head first, allowing an "ole" move or allow Ali to get him into a head-lock. An "ole" move will work if you are fighting on the playground against an opponent that puts everything into a charge, shoot, whatever. Now, side-stepping shoots do work, but most trained fighters know how to side-shoot so that "oles" are more difficult to use as a counter.

[Baculus]

Proof (http://youtube.com/watch?v=KoMzRLGukxA) that Ali would rape Liddell.

What?

Proof that Quinton Rampage Jackson has beaten Ice Man, and that Liddell needed to work on his ground defense. If you noticed, Jackson beat Liddell on the group, from the top. It wasn't from a position, such as a stand-up position, which is where most of us would assume that Ali would be at his best.

That video shows Liddell losing to another MMA fighter - it does not prove anything.

BTW, these two are having a rematch very, very soon: Awesome!

[Jumbo]

Of course clinches would play a HUGE role in the fight. Are you familiar with muy thai clinches? And that is the point: Too many Ali supporters are thinking in one-dimensional terms, assuming that Chuck would merely stand toe-to-toe and just box Ali.

I do love the muy thai knee. Have a good one too. Didn't help me against that Golden Gloves dude though. :laugh:

Bac, on your last sentece, how about considering this: How many people with television and eletricity who are participating in this thread would be unaware of the kinds of moves typical in MMA? I mean who wouldn't be aware that there are clenches, strikes, kicking, grapplling and choking moves, etc.?

For that matter I would think most would know things like Royce and Hoyce Gracie's schools were built not just on jiu-jitsu for grappling style but a Brazillian derivative they helped evolve.

Maybe it's not just those (or some) on the boxing side operating from a very one-sided "knowledge-base" in their awareness when voicing their opinion. :)

[Baculus]

You've never wrestled, have you? Its really not that simple.

Yes, that is the impression I am getting. I used to wrestle in high school, and the "ole" isn't really much of a defense.

[PleaseBlitz]

Bac, on your last sentece, how about considering this: How many people with television and eletricity who are participating in this thread would be unaware of the kinds of moves typical in MMA? I mean who wouldn't be aware that there are clenches, strikes, kicking, grapplling and choking moves, etc.?



Appartantly a lot. UFC is only on SpikeTV and PPV. I bet many of the people arguing for Ali have not seen many MMA fights. :2cents:

[jrockster21]

Here's a link to a video showing Ali throwing 11 punches in 3 seconds:

http://video.earwaxrecords.com/video/2a9047cc-dbff-4057-8972-9865014cfad0.htm

Game, set, match. No way Liddell can handle that...I don't care how quick he is.

[Chachie]

I would suggest you watch any kickboxing, K-1, or muy thai, let alone an MMA match, and tell me these guys can't box.



These guys can't box. If they could, they'd be boxers.

[Chachie]

Appartantly a lot. UFC is only on SpikeTV and PPV. I bet many of the people arguing for Ali have not seen many MMA fights. :2cents:

The average age of those arguing for Chuck is about 21. They weren't even alive when Ali was fighting. Appartantly.

[jrockster21]

Youre right, except for assumming that a boxer would be able to stop a takedown attempt by a wrestler. They wouldnt, and thats why Liddell would win.

A jab simply does not have enough force behind it to stop at 200 lb object moving at you at a high rate of speed. Its simple physics. Try this experiment. Go to a boxing gym. Find a heavy bag (these are typically <100lbs) and have a buddy pull it away from you and then swing it at you as hard as he can. See if you can stop its momentum with one jab.

The fight goes to the ground within 30 seconds.

Also, saying that top MMA fighters arent in as good or better shape than boxers is incorrect as well.


Yeah, but even the quickest wrestler takes about 2 seconds to shoot in. Ali would have pummelled him with 8 punches by that point. :)

[Baculus]

I do love the muy thai knee. Have a good one too. Didn't help me against that Golden Gloves dude though. :laugh:

Oh yeah, I never said it was the end all in all fights. Heh. But it does pertain to the question on hand.


Bac, on your last sentece, how about considering this: How many people with television and elcetricity participating in this thread would be unaware of the kinds of moves typical in MMA? I mean who wouldn't be aware that there are clenches, strikes, kicking, grapplling and choking moves, etc.?

A lot of people do not watch muy thai, let alone any sort of kick boxing. Let me refer you to the gentleman who said that kicks have no place in a fight.

I would venture that a large number of folks just aren't versed, as casual observers, with some of the techniques you mentioned.


For that matter I would think most would know things like Royce and Hoyce Gracie's schools were built not just on jiu-jitsu for grappling style but a Brazillian derivative they helped evolve.

Maybe it's not just those (or some) on the boxing side operating from a very one-sided "knowledge-base" in their awareness when voicing their opinion. :)

BJJ vs Jiu-jitsu can spark debates, but we aren't attempting to go into a deep converstation on ANY of the styles mentioned here. Of course, BJJ goes beyond grappling, since locks, chokes, etc., are part of the style. Grappling in general had to be mentioned since such a skill is part of many "street fights," which is the premise of the thread.

I am not sure what you are attempting to say, but "clenches, strikes, kicking, grapplling and choking moves" have to be mentioned because that is part of Liddell's style, or the style of any mixed martial artist.

[PleaseBlitz]

Game, set, match. No way Liddell can handle that...I don't care how quick he is.


Someone just needs to post a vid of UFC 66 when Liddell did the same thing to Tito Ortiz.......except that Liddell did it to a former champion, not some faggot-eating Brit.

[jrockster21]

These guys can't box. If they could, they'd be boxers.

Exactly. Hmmm...assuming my boxing skill is equal in either, should I participate in Muay Thai kickboxing for zero dollars, or regular boxing for 20 million dollars. Hmmm...tough choice. :laugh:

[jrockster21]

Someone just needs to post a vid of UFC 66 when Liddell did the same thing to Tito Ortiz.......except that Liddell did it to a former champion, not some faggot-eating Brit.

Would a different opponent make Ali's fists slower?

[Baculus]

The average age of those arguing for Chuck is about 21. They weren't even alive when Ali was fighting. Appartantly.

You are only a couple of years older then men, so this is really moot. Really, for a lot of us, Ali was out of his prime by the time we were conscious enough to really observe boxing.

And we can always watch footage of Ali. NO ONE is disputing Ali as a boxer: He is a legend. That isn't the point, as I have mentioned. What we are discussing if Ali, even with his skill, would be at a disadvantage and able to defend attacks for which he has not trained.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I do love the muy thai knee. Have a good one too. Didn't help me against that Golden Gloves dude though. :laugh:

Bac, on your last sentece, how about considering this: How many people with television and eletricity who are participating in this thread would be unaware of the kinds of moves typical in MMA? I mean who wouldn't be aware that there are clenches, strikes, kicking, grapplling and choking moves, etc.?

For that matter I would think most would know things like Royce and Hoyce Gracie's schools were built not just on jiu-jitsu for grappling style but a Brazillian derivative they helped evolve.

Maybe it's not just those (or some) on the boxing side operating from a very one-sided "knowledge-base" in their awareness when voicing their opinion. :)

Personally, I don't feel the need to post a resume on my experiences. But citing moves that hold no merit to uninformed posters, presumptiously flies over their heads. My goal is to cite the limitations in boxers that give them a clear disadvantage against a trained all-around fighter. Otherwise, we're talking about the greatest boxer ever. Some will take it as an insult to a heroic figure, some just can't see "that MMA stuff" working. Some, like yourself, are giving informed arguments. Sort of effective arguments. ;) I think both sides of the case are valid. And I hope the article posted a few pages ago about Mayweather saying he'd wipe the floor clean with the UFC Lightweight Champion comes to a prooving ground. Get peppermint patty dodgin weavin Mayweather in there with Sherk. Would Mayweather risk his 37-0 record against that freakin pitbull? I can dream, can't I???

[Chachie]

A jab simply does not have enough force behind it to stop at 200 lb object moving at you at a high rate of speed.

The human head does not weigh 200 lbs. When the head goes down, the other 190 lbs follows.
BTW- many 200+ pound men have charged at Muhammad Ali.

[Baculus]

Game, set, match. No way Liddell can handle that...I don't care how quick he is.

A nice series of blows, but, really, come on: The guy is against the ropes, he fights nothing like Chuck, and, really, come on...

[Spaceman Spiff]

Skins247 would whup them both. At the same time.

He's a ****ing badass.

Just ask him.

[PleaseBlitz]

Yeah, but even the quickest wrestler takes about 2 seconds to shoot in. Ali would have pummelled him with 8 punches by that point. :)

Nope, takes about 1 second, and would be an exceptionally fast moving target. Not the brits head which just stays in one spot while Ali pounds away.


Would a different opponent make Ali's fists slower?

No, the rebuttal was that Liddell can do the same thing.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Yes, that is the impression I am getting. I used to wrestle in high school, and the "ole" isn't really much of a defense.

It is much of a defense if you're bigger and 39 times faster than the guy you're fighting. And when you suggested earlier that Lidell wouldn't have to perform a shoot to get to Ali, you're crazy. Ali had the hands and the feet to get out of the way if Chuck were to charge him. Also with Ali's quickness and strength there is little to no chance that Chuck could even get to Ali's body unless he let him.

[megared]

C'mon man, read the thread. What decisive advantage in clinching would Liddell hold over Ali? How about the fact that he is trained in takedowns and throws from that position to take Ali to the ground, at which point the fight is over.

So for your scenario to play out in Lidell's favor:

1. Lidell gets inside without taking alot of punishment (Ali was the best at dividing the ring into zones)
2. Ali would have to give up inside position (wasn't happening)
3. Lidell holds Ali in a clinch :rolleyes:

Nowhere in Chucks' charges would the best counterpunching boxer in history come up with, oh a counterpunch?

[redskinsfan85]

The guys thinking Liddel would win haven't seen Alis foot speed or must have surely forgotten what the man was capable off. He's run circles around his opponents all night. When he was 'on' they'd pretty much have no chance to land a blow...he'd just start running. It really is crazy stuff. And you also seem to have forgotten about the 'shuffle'...

Here just a reminder of what Ali possessed. Go to 1:34 of the 1st video and just watch the 2nd from the beginning. Liddel wouldn't even have a chance to land a clean blow to the legs and even if he did Alis fast instincts/reaction would have cleanly avoided it. He was just different and you have to respect his talent. The dudes a legend

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oD99VbFzqAg&mode=related&search=

http://youtube.com/watch?v=RElWS2xMDj4

edit:
2 people voted for Liddel while I was typing :mad:

[PleaseBlitz]

The human head does not weigh 200 lbs. When the head goes down, the other 190 lbs follows.
BTW- many 200+ pound men have charged at Muhammad Ali.

So you think 1 jab from Ali would knock out Liddell? Do you think Ali can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes too? I heard he once ate 20 chinese.

I really think you have no grasp whatsoever of wrestling. A 200 pound boxer "charging" at Ali to box him from in close is COMPLETELY different than a 200 pound wrestler that wants to take Ali to the mat.

Do you think the 2 are similar in any way? Please explain.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

It is much of a defense if you're bigger and 39 times faster than the guy you're fighting. And when you suggested earlier that Lidell wouldn't have to perform a shoot to get to Ali, you're crazy. Ali had the hands and the feet to get out of the way if Chuck were to charge him. Also with Ali's quickness and strength there is little to no chance that Chuck could even get to Ali's body unless he let him.

Somebody posted a video of Muhammad punching a guy 11 times in 3 seconds quite a few pages ago. While impressive, guys like Vitor Belfor, Phil Beroni, Liddell, Emilianenko, Anderson Silva...they can all probably punch that fast. I saw a fight where Belfort must have broke the teens in the amount of punches he threw in a matter of a few seconds. But Belfort, a punching specialist, has fallen off the top rankings in MMA. Fighting Chuck was basically the last we've seen of him to date.

[jrockster21]

Nope, takes about 1 second, and would be an exceptionally fast moving target. Not the brits head which just stays in one spot while Ali pounds away.

Okay, 1.5 seconds. :silly: At 11 punches per 3 seconds, that's still 5.5 punches. Remember, Ali was one of the most precise punchers to ever live. With 4 oz gloves or whatever they use, Ali might shatter Liddells jaw with a clean shot.


No, the rebuttal was that Liddell can do the same thing.

Ah...I thought you were down-playing Ali because he was facing a non-champion. I highly doubt Liddell threw 11 punches in 3 seconds, but I won't doubt you until its posted. :)

[Jumbo]

Youre right, except for assumming that a boxer would be able to stop a takedown attempt by a wrestler. They wouldnt, and thats why Liddell would win.

A jab simply does not have enough force behind it to stop at 200 lb object moving at you at a high rate of speed. Its simple physics. Try this experiment. Go to a boxing gym. Find a heavy bag (these are typically <100lbs) and have a buddy pull it away from you and then swing it at you as hard as he can. See if you can stop its momentum with one jab.

The fight goes to the ground within 30 seconds.

Also, saying that top MMA fighters arent in as good or better shape than boxers is incorrect as well.


You don't at all convince me that Ali couldn't stay off the ground. Guarnateeing it is like me gauranteeing Ali will knock him out before he can pull it off. In fact, mine is wayyyyyy more likelier :D ;) .

PB, I have done versions of that experiment a number of times :) . I have been in boxing gyms about one time for seven posts you made :silly: . I still stand by what I said, though I am carefully thining on what I read, even if it's nothing new to me.

And, here we go again, I didn't say anything about standing in front a swinging 100 lb bag and seeing if I could halt it's forward motion with a jab. Nor did I say MMA fighters weren't in "as good a shape." We're deteriotating into numbness, my brother.

To re-word what I haver repeatedlt said about rushes and kicks, my money would be on Ali avoiding the rush sufficiently via evasive movement and landing very effective blows. Frankly, I'd expect Liddell (whom I have seen fight 7-8 times and think is great) to be flat on the canvas quickly.

And I described the degree to which some specific areas were trained for in terms of time and focus versus other areas for the two types of fighters. And that's what I posted. :)

And now I really am done, and turn it over to you guys who train better than I do in thread-cages. :laugh: :cheers:

(Actually it's a sunny Friday and I am taking off :D )

[PleaseBlitz]

So for your scenario to play out in Lidell's favor:

1. Lidell gets inside without taking alot of punishment (Ali was the best at dividing the ring into zones)
2. Ali would have to give up inside position (wasn't happening)
3. Lidell holds Ali in a clinch :rolleyes:

Nowhere in Chucks' charges would the best counterpunching boxer in history come up with, oh a counterpunch?

Im sorry, but you are misunderstanding me. You are looking at this thing in terms of boxing. I can tell because you are using terms like "get inside" "clinch" "charge" and "counterpunch." THIS WOULDNT BE A BOXING MATCH.

In terms of wrestling, a boxing stance is standing pretty much straight up. Thats a pretty easy target for a wrestler to take down. While i know that Ali was extremely skilled at dodging punches and moving his head out of the way of punches, how adept is he at defending his lower half? <---i guarantee this question is never addressed. :silly:

Further, Liddell wouldnt want or try to hold Ali in a clinch. As soon as he got in close, Ali would be on the mat. Instantly. And once that happens, Ali is done.

[jrockster21]

So you think 1 jab from Ali would knock out Liddell? Do you think Ali can fly and shoot lasers out of his eyes too? I heard he once ate 20 chinese.

I really think you have no grasp whatsoever of wrestling. A 200 pound boxer "charging" at Ali to box him from in close is COMPLETELY different than a 200 pound wrestler that wants to take Ali to the mat.

Do you think the 2 are similar in any way? Please explain.

Personally, I wrestled in high school (briefly - it wasn't for me) so I have a pretty decent understanding of basic shoot-techniques, and could probably defend against one reasonably well. An athlete like Ali would easily be able to at least make it extremely tough for Liddell to shoot in on him. I mean, the guy was incredibly quick on his feet, and could punch with superb precision from anywhere.

[jrockster21]

how adept is he at defending his lower half? <---i guarantee this question is never addressed. :silly:

Did somebody say something? :paranoid:



:laugh:

That question has been addressed multiple times. Ali's footwork was second to none - I'm fairly certain he would be able to dance out of the way and land several counterpunches in the process. :)

[Chachie]

Somebody posted a video of Muhammad punching a guy 11 times in 3 seconds quite a few pages ago. While impressive, guys like Vitor Belfor, Phil Beroni, Liddell, Emilianenko, Anderson Silva...they can all probably punch that fast.


:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No they can't. They couldn't punch that fast with NO gloves on at all. No way. Never. Not in a trillion years. Take that back because you KNOW it's simply not true. Post a video that proves this.

And Ali was wearing some BIG gloves in that video.

[DonMagicJuan]

is this thread even worth talking about? Muhammad Ali in under 5 rounds easily...

in the words of Bret the Hitman Hart,

Ali was the best there is, best there was, and the best there ever will be....

and if u know how to box, u can whoop anybody's ass in a street fight...only if your fighting Bruce Lee, then u had no chance, but other then him, any boxer can whoop any martial artist's ass...

how u ask? experience...me fighting a martial artist and also my boy whos a gold glover whooping the **** out of a guy who was like 5th or 6th degree black belt with a jab to his nose and broke it!

[capt1an chaos]

As a student of Jujitsu, and being and Ali fan all of my life I still have to say Liddell all day long, as a matter of fact I would say it would end rather quickly also.

[PleaseBlitz]

Personally, I wrestled in high school (briefly - it wasn't for me) so I have a pretty decent understanding of basic shoot-techniques, and could probably defend against one reasonably well. An athlete like Ali would easily be able to at least make it extremely tough for Liddell to shoot in on him. I mean, the guy was incredibly quick on his feet, and could punch with superb precision from anywhere.


Jrock, sorry, but there is a pretty big difference from wrestling a few times on JV and being a collegiate wrestler. When i was wrestling, i was typically at 112 lbs or smaller, so i often got to face underclassmen with "a pretty decent understanding of basic shoot-techniques." They usually got techfalled.

Yes, Ali was lightning quick, but if you havent been specifically TRAINED to avoid the many different kinds of takedown techniques, you are going to get taken down. Especially if your intent is to throw punches and you have one foot forward and all your weight on it.

[PleaseBlitz]

Did somebody say something? :paranoid:



:laugh:

That question has been addressed multiple times. Ali's footwork was second to none - I'm fairly certain he would be able to dance out of the way and land several counterpunches in the process. :)

Footwork is not = to defending your legs.

[Baculus]

Well, Baculus, I am maybe worn down a tad on this one, and I"ve avoided getting too anecdotal or "giving credentials" on purpose, but I will say that while I've watched a fair numner of MMA bouts, I am not just going by viewing but also by doing. Believe me, the MMA grappling and strikes that have become so mainstream in fans' knoweldge existed thirty years ago among the people engaged in these actitivites. Just as Karate, Tae Kwan Do, Kung-Fu, and Jui-jitsu existed well before the U.S. craze of Asian chop-socky flicks in the early seventies and American TV shows/movies picking up on "karate chops" in the late 60's.

Of course, that is understood. But we are not talking about a "Bruce Lee vs Chuck Liddell" conversation here. :-) We are talking about a great fighter - a boxer - against a skilled striker of different disciplines.


Anyway, this may be my last post, and honest, I seek to change zero minds, what anyone's opinion is I think is fine (except about the Ali thing)---having the interest is what counts most. ;)

Agreed.


One thing to say, again, is every strategic point someone has made about the fighting tactics a MMA can do, that a boxer doesn't employ, are more than familiar to me, and I assume to many others. So, when someone argues "MMA guys grapple and kick and are fast too...etc etc ", is it assumed that the guys taking Ali's case somehow aren't aware of these things???

They have not seemed to have been familiar, so far. Their suggested defenses to what Ali would do just aren't...well, realistic.


Here's the deal (and Lee was one of the best at demonstrating this--as was a good friend of mine Steve Kamanowa)--if you are in a ring and have pro boxing skills and are smart (you don't get to mid-to top pro level <my constant ref point in the thread> unless you are) it is relatively easy to stay back from low kicks and move in on high kicks. It does take focused patience to wait for the kicks and let them miss. The boxers chewed up in MMA examples are likely hacks, just as Hermagg points out that Butterbean's vicoties (save one or two maybe) were against lesser MMA dudes.

I have yet to see an actual straight-up boxer fare well in the ring in such situations. Perhaps they are always hacks, but it never seems to end well for the boxer. Don Frye is a boxer that did fare well, but he was also a greo-roman wrestler. Perhaps your friend may have mentioned that, but I haven't seen much demonstration of this fact.


No blow travels less distance than a hand blow to face or torso--less reaction time, less physiological/cognitive time etc. They are the quickest blows you can land, and against the most vulnerable attack points (save breaking a knee, ankle, or a groin-stirke). And yes, I know about the debilitating effect of thigh-strikes, stay with me.

Ok - assuming that you are in a situation to deliver those blows. A lot of devasting blows are six-inches are less, which is why the "ground and pound" is effectivce with hammer fists. But the issue here is that, in situations such as kick boxing, uses of kicks does nullify some of the close-in fighting that would be expected of a boxer. The range and engage distance is not the same between a kickboxer and a boxer.


A high skill-level boxer will hit harder, faster, with greater accuracy, and with more deliberate targeting of the face/torso, because of training focus and time spent than his equivalent skill-level MMA guy who trains spreading his techniques around a myriad of choices. His audience, his sport, and his success demand the differecne for both competitors.

In a boxing match...not in a match that allows rules other then boxing. We are not talking about just a boxing match, and that is the issue with your argument. Which is why boxers do not fare well in MMA. Boxers who have been trained with some elements of MMA do fare decently, though. But asking a boxer, of any caliber, to simply stroll into an MMA match is asking for a disadvantage. We know this from practice and from demonstrative fights.


The boxer, as has been pointed out, works tremendously on legs and wind, and movement in all directions with evasion, and then moving in for quick and potent, energy-sapping strikes, or big pay-off blows, and that’s what he’ll need as well in the MMA fight. I'm not saying MMA's don't train there, but to my direct knowledge they train notably less in those ares on the average. I'm mainly saying that those well-developed components of the pro boxer will serve him well in our imaginary bout.

Some of his training is not as effective he he has no idea how to block a leg kick. If his opponent continues to move out of his range, kicking that lead leg, as soon as the boxer drops his hands to defend that leg, which is typically what happens, he has dropped his guard. MMA fighters train a lot in stand-up boxing, but they have to adjust their stance and style to defend against the various methods of attacks we have discussed.

Straight-up, boxing, unto a style by itself, does NOT work in MMA. It is a PART of MMA, though, hence MIXED in mxied martial arts: multi-discipline fighting. But a pure boxer has never fared for very long on the sport: He always encounters a fighter that will neutralize his style, unless he learns some additonal techniques.

And that is what seems to be overlooked: Boxing is very well a part of MMA, along with other styles.


The points made about boxers having regular experience dealing with tying up, clenches, going 15 rounds, and hitting a guy who goes for your legs are all relevant, but I doubt the smart boxer will even allow the MMA guy get there, as opposed to dancing back or to the side and then striking. But if he does "get there", the boxer is not going to just “go down” defenselessly. And just like MMA guys, these boxers are usually come from some pretty tough street backgrounds.

I have to disagree: In practice, we can show video after video of a boxer who has little idea how to defense against a takedown, of whatever type, by a skilled opponent. Unless that boxer has wrestling experience, he just does not know how to defend him well when an opponent is using some means to take him down. Heck, it is often for TRAINED opponents to defend against a takedown; I don't see how a boxer is going to fare any better.

Once again, we have fight after fight that demonstrates that boxers are simply out of their element. That is not a knock against boxers at all - those same boxers would whip many MMA fighters if they fought pure boxing rules.

I’m one who sees good reason for agreeing that boxing is rightfully called a fighting science by sports physiologists and sporting experts, as well as an art.


When you receive training on personal combat for when your life is at stake (as I also pointed out), kicking techniques are the last thing advised. Choking and leverage moves are certainly taught--and no boxing per se. Mainly because boxing takes years to learn to do well. The main piece of info in bringing that up is indicate how ineffectual kicking can be against a smart opponent or when everything is at stake. It is certainly flashy, and in a sport that demands it, you're going to see some great kicks. But even in MMA it's submission and hand strikes far more than kicking that play the big role. Even counting the draining thigh kicks--which sometimes is just the commentators doing their job ;) Most of those guys seem to kick as little as they can get away with in a match--becuase it's generally more risky and less effective and they know it.

Sure, I would agree, submissions is a large element of self defense; I never argued against that. Of course, the disadvantage of being on the ground, too, is that such a position leaves you vulnerable to future attacks. But we aren't just talking about self -defense, but a fight between opponents and the skills at their disposable, right?

But MMA fights have been good venues to demonstrate what may, or may not work, with situations which aren't hampered by, say, boxing rules.


Lee thought boxing was the highest skill form---read him--he felt boxing was the state of the art for man to man unarmed combat. He is not alone, but to get to that level takes way more time, rarer talent, and rarer physiology.

That is not the argument here, or what is the higher form. None of this argument is a knock against Ali, let alone any boxer.


When not promoting their field off, the Randy Coulter's and Royce Gracie's have often acknowledged top rank boxing as the ultimate level of unarmed man to man combat. That is still the ring by which all other are judged. That heavyweight championship belt is not revered above all others out of ignorance or simply tradition. People who know these things for real know that it is till the pinnacle of all fighting arts, and Ali was arguably the best ever. By the way--for ten years, up until I was about 26 or so, I argued MA over boxing, too.

OK, fight on you maniacs, I have to go read some porno. :laugh:

The truth is that, in the conditions of a MMA fight, pure boxers are at a disadvantage. We can all wax poetically about boxing - a sport I have been watching for years, and years before my interest of MMA - but in the laboratory of a ring, in actual fighting practice, boxing is often not enough against an opponent. Boxing is a great sport, and once again, an element of mixed martial arts, but, from what I am seeing is simply a prejudice against the sport of MMA, as if boxing is the only fighting that has merit, which is, simply put, absurd.

To me, MMA is a much more entertaining sport, showcasing incredible, often Olympic or worldclass athletes.

[megared]

Im sorry, but you are misunderstanding me. You are looking at this thing in terms of boxing. I can tell because you are using terms like "get inside" "clinch" "charge" and "counterpunch." THIS WOULDNT BE A BOXING MATCH.

In terms of wrestling, a boxing stance is standing pretty much straight up. Thats a pretty easy target for a wrestler to take down. While i know that Ali was extremely skilled at dodging punches and moving his head out of the way of punches, how adept is he at defending his lower half? <---i guarantee this question is never addressed. :silly:

Further, Liddell wouldnt want or try to hold Ali in a clinch. As soon as he got in close, Ali would be on the mat. Instantly. And once that happens, Ali is done.

It would be a fight in which all of the things that made Ali great would still be on display. You don't think he'd employ his style of using his superior range, speed, instincts, strength, punching power, accuracy and defense to his advantage? People tried to come inside on Ali all day, that was really the only chance of beating him there was.

The only disadvantage I would give Ali versus Lidell (again assuming they have smaller gloves) is the fact that he wouldn't be able to as effectively shield blows by holding his guard. But then again, a prime Ali didn't even hold his hands up, he'd simply have you swinging at air. And, he's taken bodyshots from the hardest hitters to put any kind of gloves on...

So I'd say his decisive physical advantages over Lidell far outweigh any spin on the stipulations you can fathom to somehow put Ali at a disadvantage.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

No they can't. They couldn't punch that fast with NO gloves on at all. No way. Never. Not in a trillion years. Take that back because you KNOW it's simply not true. Post a video that proves this.

And Ali was wearing some BIG gloves in that video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvkwUaHV2U

Ok, looked and came across this. Vitor is the last highlight shown. Count how long it took him to get to 11 punches in that 14 hit combo.

[jrockster21]

Jrock, sorry, but there is a pretty big difference from wrestling a few times on JV and being a collegiate wrestler. When i was wrestling, i was typically at 112 lbs or smaller, so i often got to face underclassmen with "a pretty decent understanding of basic shoot-techniques." They usually got techfalled.

And I'm sure you would take me down pretty easily as well. :silly: And I was on varsity, thank you very much.

There was no heavyweight on varsity so I made it by default.

:D


Yes, Ali was lightning quick, but if you havent been specifically TRAINED to avoid the many different kinds of takedown techniques, you are going to get taken down. Especially if your intent is to throw punches and you have one foot forward and all your weight on it.

Here's the thing - its already been mentioned several times in this thread - Ali could punch from anywhere, not just front foot forward. While they obviously wouldn't be as powerful as a solid, direct hit, but they would still be pretty lethal.

[Baculus]

Did somebody say something? :paranoid:



:laugh:

That question has been addressed multiple times. Ali's footwork was second to none - I'm fairly certain he would be able to dance out of the way and land several counterpunches in the process. :)

Footwork is more relevant, when defending against a take-down, to where you are placing your feet and the weight on those feet, as opposed to the footwork for a punch. They aren't necessarily one and the same.

[PleaseBlitz]

It would be a fight in which all of the things that made Ali great would still be on display. You don't think he'd employ his style of using his superior range, speed, instincts, strength, punching power, accuracy and defense to his advantage? People tried to come inside on Ali all day, that was really the only chance of beating him there was.

The only disadvantage I would give Ali versus Lidell (again assuming they have smaller gloves) is the fact that he wouldn't be able to as effectively shield blows by holding his guard. But then again, a prime Ali didn't even hold his hands up, he'd simply have you swinging at air. And, he's taken bodyshots from the hardest hitters to put any kind of gloves on...

So I'd say his decisive physical advantages over Lidell far outweigh any spin on the stipulations you can fathom to somehow put Ali at a disadvantage.

I just dont think you understand MMA. An MMA fighter wouldnt try to "come inside" on Ali and stand there and punch him. They would throw him to the ground and pummell or submit him.

Does anyone think that once this fight hits the mat, Ali would stand a chance?

[PleaseBlitz]

And I'm sure you would take me down pretty easily as well. :silly: And I was on varsity, thank you very much.

There was no heavyweight on varsity so I made it by default.

:D

:)




Here's the thing - its already been mentioned several times in this thread - Ali could punch from anywhere, not just front foot forward. While they obviously wouldn't be as powerful as a solid, direct hit, but they would still be pretty lethal.

The point is, could Ali defend someone trying to take out his legs? I doubt it.

[Baculus]

I just dont think you understand MMA. An MMA fighter wouldnt try to "come inside" on Ali and stand there and punch him. They would throw him to the ground and pummell or submit him.

Does anyone think that once this fight hits the mat, Ali would stand a chance?

Apparently Ali was a master on the mat was well as on his feet. For if his "Ole" and "punch the charging Chuck Liddell" defense doesn't work, then the "grab the neck of the charging Liddell and punch him" defense is sure to work.

Don't you get it? Boxers are already MMA fighters and don't need to work on any other element of fighting? Just kidding guys.

[jrockster21]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvkwUaHV2U

Ok, looked and came across this. Vitor is the last highlight shown. Count how long it took him to get to 11 punches in that 14 hit combo.

The Liddell/Ortiz fight is at about the 2:34 mark in that video, and his flurry of punches (while fast) was no where near as fast as Ali's. The other guy was pretty fast, I will admit. But keep in mind that the gloves he had on are much lighter than the one's Ali had on in his video. ;)

[Baculus]

Here is the thing: I can give Ali all of the respect in the world, but NONE of the Ali-supporters have given Chuck Liddell, a belt holder in a style of diverse fighting, any respect. In fact, it is simply a tendency I see on the thread, which is dismissive of mixed fighting styles as a whole, as if, well, they don't exist or aren't practiced extremely well.

For anyone who enjoys MMA, we CAN'T dismiss boxing because it is a key part of the fighting style. Heck, Liddell himself would probably get a huge chuckle at this thread: At 37, I am sure he is well-versed with Ali and would probably even say he'd lose. But I think, for some folks, mixed martial arts deserves a lot of respect, for it is, indeed, the most exciting fighting sport there is, more then boxing, K-1, or any, for that matter. How can it not be when it implements styles and fighters from every continent?

[jrockster21]

Does anyone think that once this fight hits the mat, Ali would stand a chance?

Honestly, my guess would be that once it was on the mat Ali would probably be done. But who knows? He was a strong man, and a natural fighter. The saddest part about this thread is that no matter how hard we argue, we'll never see it happen. :(

Maybe if Mayweather fights the UFC guy we can get some sort of gage, but there will never be another Ali.


The point is, could Ali defend someone trying to take out his legs? I doubt it.

I dunno. I still contend that his footwork was quick enough to dodge a wrestling attack.


Apparently Ali was a master on the mat was well as on his feet. For if his "Ole" and "punch the charging Chuck Liddell" defense doesn't work, then the "grab the neck of the charging Liddell and punch him" defense is sure to work.

Don't you get it? Boxers are already MMA fighters and don't need to work on any other element of fighting? Just kidding guys.

Don't you get it? If MMA fighters could compete with boxers, they would. Who wouldn't want to take a 20 million dollar payday over a much lesser payday for a similar amount of punishment? :whoknows:

[megared]

I just dont think you understand MMA. An MMA fighter wouldnt try to "come inside" on Ali and stand there and punch him. They would throw him to the ground and pummell or submit him.

Does anyone think that once this fight hits the mat, Ali would stand a chance?

Circular argument...so the MMA fighter will have no issue getting inside to throw him to the ground? This is based upon the fact that Lidell would be facing lightning fast jabs, devastating combinations that would stop anyone in their tracks. That's the issue, how do you get inside on Ali? Knowing the answer in principle to that question is one thing, executing it on the G.O.A.T. boxer is another thing. Just how many times did an opponent dictate their game to Ali without him allowing it? What makes Lidell different?

This is all under the assumption that the MMA fighter would want to get inside for a submission. Since there's noone in MMA that matches Ali's strengths (individually or collectively)...or would stand a snowball's chance in hell of exchanging blows with him, what's so unreasonable about it?

[PleaseBlitz]

Don't you get it? If MMA fighters could compete with boxers, they would. Who wouldn't want to take a 20 million dollar payday over a much lesser payday for a similar amount of punishment? :whoknows:


How many $20 million purses are there per year? I am pretty sure that MMA purses will surpass crooked-ass boxing purses very shortly.

Per wiki:

The UFC broke the pay-per-view industry's all-time records for a single year of business, generating over $222,766,000 in revenue during 2006, surpassing the WWE and boxing. The UFC grossed more revenue in 2006 on PPV than any promotion in history.

[Mooka]

For whoever thinks kicks don't have a place in fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trh9e0vA26U Yea that was me. Perhaps you notice the ring, and the spectators, and probably the half nekkid ring girls... :silly:

I'll ask my quesion again. Do you really think Chuck Lidell would try to kick someone in the face in a streetfight?

[Baculus]

I dunno. I still contend that his footwork was quick enough to dodge a wrestling attack.

Boxing footwork is different then MMA footwork. They just aren't the same...



Don't you get it? If MMA fighters could compete with boxers, they would. Who wouldn't want to take a 20 million dollar payday over a much lesser payday for a similar amount of punishment? :whoknows:

Actually, you don't see that many payouts of that caliber anymore, especially with the super heavyweights. Again, apples and oranges: MMA is just now catching up to boxing, and has, in fact, surpassed boxing and professional wrestling with its audience.

Boxers can't compete in MMA unless they train in MMA. MMA fighters often train in boxing, so an MMA fighter would have a much better chance then a reverse situation.

I just have a feeling you have not watched much MMA and just don't respect the sport. Which is too bad. Try this weekends UFC event and maybe you will get a glimpse of a fantastic event, including a fine (in fact, in boxing and MMA), one the best hands around in Mirk CroCop.

BTW, another thing that has not been mentioned in boxing: Boxing with those large gloves is a lot different then with small MMA gloves. We haven't even discussed the different in technique between the two. You can't Peek-a-boo" with your gloves in MMA, like you can in boxing. MMA fighters have to learn boxing technique that will be more accurate against a smaller throw and punch with the smaller MMA gloves. This, by itself, may affect some boxers as well if they make the transition to MMA.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

The Liddell/Ortiz fight is at about the 2:34 mark in that video, and his flurry of punches (while fast) was no where near as fast as Ali's. The other guy was pretty fast, I will admit. But keep in mind that the gloves he had on are much lighter than the one's Ali had on in his video. ;)

That's because Chuck loads up more than Ali does. It's his natural punch motion. And another thing.

The reason pitchers in baseball aren't outstanding hitters is because of the variety of skills they need to perfect. Chuck works on a mirad of techniques compared to Ali's working out, footwork, and punching ability. It's like a pitcher in baseball. Pitchers can't split their focus on hitting and pitching and expect to be the best in both. That's why most pitchers aren't very good at hitting, because they need to practice pitching more.

Pitchers can hurt their arms pitching too much, while MMA fighters aren't as prone while working on their games. So they are able to train every day, polishing all fascets of the game. Chuck could probably unload 11 punches in 3 seconds on a still target...hell, being a drummer and a kickboxer, I could easily do that to a punching bag or a fighter sitting there like a duck. I darn sure didn't see Ali doing it against the #1 contender. Which Tito was when Chuck unloaded that combo on his nose.

[Baculus]

Yea that was me. Perhaps you notice the ring, and the spectators, and probably the half nekkid ring girls... :silly:

I'll ask my quesion again. Do you really think Chuck Lidell would try to kick someone in the face in a streetfight?

Considering that such a kick may very well end in the fight in a second. Yes. After all, he does have multiple belts in karate: He isn't just some brute, untrained fighter.

[PleaseBlitz]

Circular argument...so the MMA fighter will have no issue getting inside to throw him to the ground? This is based upon the fact that Lidell would be facing lightning fast jabs, devastating combinations that would stop anyone in their tracks. That's the issue, how do you get inside on Ali?

You go low and take out his legs.


Knowing the answer in principle to that question is one thing, executing it on the G.O.A.T. boxer is another thing. Just how many times did an opponent dictate their game to Ali without him allowing it? What makes Lidell different?

That Liddell has a completely different fighting style than anything Ali has ever faced. Is this that hard of a concept to grasp?


This is all under the assumption that the MMA fighter would want to get inside for a submission. Since there's noone in MMA that matches Ali's strengths (individually or collectively)...or would stand a snowball's chance in hell of exchanging blows with him, what's so unreasonable about it?

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

Repeat for sinking in.

[Chachie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsvkwUaHV2U

Ok, looked and came across this. Vitor is the last highlight shown. Count how long it took him to get to 11 punches in that 14 hit combo.

I counted 4+ seconds, not all the punches landed and he was not wearing boxing gloves. Not to mention that Ali's footage was shot on old film, slowing his image down.

Look, I freely admit we're all speculating here but I will NOT accept that MMA fighters weighing more than 175 pounds can punch as fast as Muhammad Ali did. Your video didn't prove it.

[jrockster21]

Boxing footwork is different then MMA footwork. They just aren't the same...

Well, that's where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.


Actually, you don't see that many payouts of that caliber anymore, especially with the super heavyweights. Again, apples and oranges: MMA is just now catching up to boxing, and has, in fact, surpassed boxing and professional wrestling with its audience.

Boxers can't compete in MMA unless they train in MMA. MMA fighters often train in boxing, so an MMA fighter would have a much better chance then a reverse situation.

Again, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.


I just have a feeling you have not watched much MMA and just don't respect the sport. Which is too bad. Try this weekends UFC event and maybe you will get a glimpse of a fantastic event, including a fine (in fact, in boxing and MMA), one the best hands around in Mirk CroCop.

I've watched a decent amount of UFC, and respect the sport for sure. But I also have seen a good amount of Ali, and respect his ability a little more. :2cents:


BTW, another thing that has not been mentioned in boxing: Boxing with those large gloves is a lot different then with small MMA gloves. We haven't even discussed the different in technique between the two. You can't Peek-a-boo" with your gloves in MMA, like you can in boxing. MMA fighters have to learn boxing technique that will be more accurate against a smaller throw and punch with the smaller MMA gloves. This, by itself, may affect some boxers as well if they make the transition to MMA.

Here's the thing - we're not talking about "some boxers," we're talking about the G.O.A.T.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Yea that was me. Perhaps you notice the ring, and the spectators, and probably the half nekkid ring girls... :silly:

I'll ask my quesion again. Do you really think Chuck Lidell would try to kick someone in the face in a streetfight?

Why not? Give me a reason why all of a sudden MMA fighters lose their balance in a street fight when everything you see in the UFC illustrates all the blows that can be used in a street fight. Minus dirty moves like eye gouging and groin shots. All of a sudden, outside, there is something in the air that makes kicks dangerous for the kicker and easy to stop. Like I said before, these streetfights you see on the internet are nothing more than drunk dudes that watched Mike Tyson in the 80's or school kids settling a score for a bully vs. bullied kid thing. You think they know when to throw a kick? It's way more of a science than you can possibly think right now.

[PleaseBlitz]

I counted 4+ seconds, not all the punches landed and he was not wearing boxing gloves. Not to mention that Ali's footage was shot on old film, slowing his image down.

Look, I freely admit we're all speculating here but I will NOT accept that MMA fighters weighing more than 175 pounds can punch as fast as Muhammad Ali did. Your video didn't prove it.

NO ONE can punch as fast as Ali. Maybe Roy Jones Jr, but certainly not anyone in MMA.

Wouldnt matter though.

[jrockster21]

NO ONE can punch as fast as Ali. Maybe Roy Jones Jr, but certainly not anyone in MMA.

Wouldnt matter though.

And there's the endgame. We're never going to agree on this...

But here's what we CAN agree on (I hope):

Either Liddell would successfully shoot in on Ali and take him to the mat and most likely get him to tap out of a submission hold

-OR-

Ali would not let Liddell shoot in on him, and eventually knock him out with precise, powerful punches to the dome.*




*This would not be instantaneous, as Liddell has one hell of a jaw.

[Baculus]

Circular argument...so the MMA fighter will have no issue getting inside to throw him to the ground? This is based upon the fact that Lidell would be facing lightning fast jabs, devastating combinations that would stop anyone in their tracks. That's the issue, how do you get inside on Ali? Knowing the answer in principle to that question is one thing, executing it on the G.O.A.T. boxer is another thing. Just how many times did an opponent dictate their game to Ali without him allowing it? What makes Lidell different?

How is that no more a circular argument then the defense you give for Ali?

We KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that fighters can get inside with a boxer. We have seen this demonstrated in fight after fight. The question is, then, if Liddell, IF THAT WAS HIS STRATEGY, would or could do that. Ali did not knock out every boxer that came within his range.

Folks are acting as if anyone that came within Ali's range was instantly knocked out. Isn't that what has been repeated and repeated again? "Ali would just throw 11 punches and knock out Liddell!"

And you are talking about circular arugments? Did every fight of Ali's instantly stop when the opponent came within Ali's striking, and Ali instantly won with a flurry of punches? Is that the defense being put forth?


This is all under the assumption that the MMA fighter would want to get inside for a submission. Since there's noone in MMA that matches Ali's strengths (individually or collectively)...or would stand a snowball's chance in hell of exchanging blows with him, what's so unreasonable about it?

Who is to say that this fight would just be a flury of blows? You are acting as if this is a boxing match. It is a match that would allow different types of fighting techniques.

Did everyone miss that Japanese boxer fighting against Ali? Would happen to that flurry of punches that would take out the Japanese wrestler?

Sorry, I have watched Ali fights, and he clinches. He does not knock everyone out in the first 10 seconds of the fight with his superman flurries of blows. He is human: An excellent fighter, but human. And, as argued, a clinch, to defend against attacks for which he may not be familiar with, may very well put Ali on uneven territory. Let alone a leg trip from the clinch, putting Ali on his back.

I would put Fedor against Ali in a second, as well as CroCop.

[Baculus]

And there's the endgame. We're never going to agree on this...

But here's what we CAN agree on (I hope):

Either Liddell would successfully shoot in on Ali and take him to the mat and most likely get him to tap out of a submission hold

-OR-

Ali would not let Liddell shoot in on him, and eventually knock him out with precise, powerful punches to the dome.*

*This would not be instantaneous, as Liddell has one hell of a jaw.

Or Liddell would LHK Ali to the head, or clinch with him, knocking Ali in the face with some high knee kicks.

Are we talking about wrestling/boxing, or mixed martial arts? :-) There is more then just shooting-wrestling, or boxing involved here!

[herrmag]

And there's the endgame. We're never going to agree on this...

But here's what we CAN agree on (I hope):

Either Liddell would successfully shoot in on Ali and take him to the mat and most likely get him to tap out of a submission hold

-OR-

Ali would not let Liddell shoot in on him, and eventually knock him out with precise, powerful punches to the dome.*




*This would not be instantaneous, as Liddell has one hell of a jaw.

-OR-

I get pissed off, jump in the ring and consume the both of them with lightning bolts from my arse..... Just because one outcome is more likely than another doesn't make it more important. :mad:

[Chachie]

C'mon, KO *any* fighter? So you'd put Lidell's power anywhere in the neighborhood of George Foreman? Joe Frazier's hook? Sonny Liston? Earnie Shavers?


Man... Ernie Shavers had a HARD punch. That guy was an animal. :)

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I counted 4+ seconds, not all the punches landed and he was not wearing boxing gloves. Not to mention that Ali's footage was shot on old film, slowing his image down.

Look, I freely admit we're all speculating here but I will NOT accept that MMA fighters weighing more than 175 pounds can punch as fast as Muhammad Ali did. Your video didn't prove it.

Two things, Ali had some dude that was punching straight up in the sky against the ropes. Belfort chased the guy all the way across the octagon as that combo was unleashed.

Plus, looking at Ali's gravity, that tape does not look to be slowed down. In the 60's the speed problem with black and white flim was fixed. And usually the problem was that the film was sped up. Did Ali ever get a 3 second combo against the #1 contender? Or should we doubt Chuck can get 11 punches in 3 seconds? Also, Ali was smackin him with some diversion blows to the gut until he smoked one through the guys face. He was bappin that dude with a catipult type of arm wrestling motion to overwhelm him before the big overhands. Kind of like a drummer doing a single stroke roll on the snare drum. Once Ali opens him up, he does the Chuck Liddell overhand right a couple times, which looks a little slower than all those baps he does before it. Chuck throws punches loaded with more energy constantly...I dare say only. But hell, I don't want to take anything away from Ali...he's a faster puncher than Liddell...let's settle this speed contest.

[Baculus]

Well, that's where we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Again, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

Wrestling has a wider stance then boxing - a wrestling stance isn't always the best for throwing a punch. You can launch a punch out of a wrestling stance, but look at Ali's feet vs. a wrestler's feet. Or any boxer; they aren't one and the same.


I've watched a decent amount of UFC, and respect the sport for sure. But I also have seen a good amount of Ali, and respect his ability a little more. :2cents:

Sorry, but I just hadn't seen much respect, that is all. Just an observation...


Here's the thing - we're not talking about "some boxers," we're talking about the G.O.A.T.

Sure, but was he undefeated? No. Rocky Marciano is the king, in that regards.

[Baculus]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1385000/images/_1389076_ali300.jpg

Ali is having some trouble against this wrestler's flying kicks...

His Ole isn't quite working, is it? Yes, I am being a bit facetious. :-)

[megared]

You go low and take out his legs.



That Liddell has a completely different fighting style than anything Ali has ever faced. Is this that hard of a concept to grasp?



FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

FORGET ABOUT "GETTING INSIDE!" Damnit man, the goal of Liddell WOULD NOT BE TO GET INSIDE. IT WOULD BE TO TAKE ALI DOWN!

Repeat for sinking in.

Explain to me how exactly Lidell would get to Ali's legs without coming into the range of his punches?

Lidell has lost to people with much (emphasis on much) lesser boxing skills. It isn't like Ali could use straight punches (with greater range) to neutralize any attack much like Couture did in 2003...:rolleyes:

[jrockster21]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1385000/images/_1389076_ali300.jpg

Ali is having some trouble against this wrestler's flying kicks...

His Ole isn't quite working, is it? Yes, I am being a bit facetious. :-)


Is that real? :laugh:

[Baculus]

Explain to me how exactly Lidell would get to Ali's legs without coming into the range of his punches?

Lidell has lost to people with much (emphasis on much) lesser boxing skills. It isn't like Ali could use straight punches (with greater range) to neutralize any attack much like Couture did in 2003...:rolleyes:

Please see above image. Thank you.

Fighters throw leg kicks all the time without getting into punching range. Check out tonight's K-1 fights, or tomorrow night's UFC fight, for more examples.

[Baculus]

Is that real? :laugh:

Yes, it is a fight that Ali had against a Japanese wrestler. The wrestler keep using a flying leg kick against Ali, who had no defense against it. Ali threw a few punches, and that is it. By the end of the fight, Ali had trouble walking and his leg was visibly red and injured.

His "flurry of punches" defense was never seen.

That is why some of this speculation is moot: Ali had trouble against this wrestler. So he isn't as invincible as some would suggest on this thread; if he had trouble against this wrestler, I would dare say that Liddell may give Ali a good fight as well.

[Mooka]

Why not? Give me a reason why all of a sudden MMA fighters lose their balance in a street fight when everything you see in the UFC illustrates all the blows that can be used in a street fight. Minus dirty moves like eye gouging and groin shots. All of a sudden, outside, there is something in the air that makes kicks dangerous for the kicker and easy to stop. Like I said before, these streetfights you see on the internet are nothing more than drunk dudes that watched Mike Tyson in the 80's or school kids settling a score for a bully vs. bullied kid thing. You think they know when to throw a kick? It's way more of a science than you can possibly think right now. That something in the air is called space. There's no ring outside in the open. By the way... street fights on the internet? :whoknows: The hell are you going on about? I guarentee you haven't seen more UFC fights then I have, and I guarentee you have havn't been watching it longer then I have because I've watched every single one from the start. (Through completely legal means of course :paranoid: this damn digital cable ruins all the fun now...)

I can't argue with you if you think Chuck would start trying to kick guys in the face in a real fight. I just don't see it.


Considering that such a kick may very well end in the fight in a second. Yes. After all, he does have multiple belts in karate: He isn't just some brute, untrained fighter. I still don't see it.


*
Yes, it is a fight that Ali had against a Japanese wrestler. The wrestler keep using a flying leg kick against Ali, who had no defense against it. Ali threw a few punches, and that is it. By the end of the fight, Ali had trouble walking and his leg was visibly red and injured.

His "flurry of punches" defense was never seen. We can't use that in this discussion Bac. I have that fight, it's a 100% exhibition. Ali is wrestling with boxing gloves on and he hardly ever throws a punch ever. Inoki's flying leg kicks consist of him doing slside tackles to Ali's leg and then lying on the ground for entire rounds kicking Ali in the legs when he gets close. Ali then circles him for the round trying to grasb his legs with boxing gloves on.

Even the Japanese crowd was booing.

[Chachie]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1385000/images/_1389076_ali300.jpg

Ali is having some trouble against this wrestler's flying kicks...

His Ole isn't quite working, is it? Yes, I am being a bit facetious. :-)

:) Nice!

I saw this bout. This pic is from the Inoki bout. Antonio Inoki is one of the first MMA fighters ever from a day when it wasn't even called MMA. Inoki's son is a Pride FC fighter today. Ali won the fight. He never went down. At least we can say Ali's been there and have some back up for what we say.

Great find, Bac.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Yes, it is a fight that Ali had against a Japanese wrestler. The wrestler keep using a flying leg kick against Ali, who had no defense against it. Ali threw a few punches, and that is it. By the end of the fight, Ali had trouble walking and his leg was visibly red and injured.

His "flurry of punches" defense was never seen.

That is why some of this speculation is moot: Ali had trouble against this wrestler. So he isn't as invincible as some would suggest on this thread; if he had trouble against this wrestler, I would dare say that Liddell may give Ali a good fight as well.

The Judo guy wasn't allowed to punch with his hands I believe. He also had a perfect opportunity to put a leg bar on Ali but the ref dove on the Judo master. At one point, Ali jumped on the ropes to avoid being hit.

[jrockster21]

:) Nice!

I saw this bout. This pic is from the Inoki bout. Antonio Inoki is one of the first MMA fighters ever from a day when it wasn't even called MMA. Inoki's son is a Pride FC fighter today. Ali won the fight. He never went down. At least we can say Ali's been there and have some back up for what we say.

Great find, Bac.

:laugh: D'OH! Self-pwnage!! :laugh:

[Chachie]

Two things, Ali had some dude that was punching straight up in the sky against the ropes. Belfort chased the guy all the way across the octagon as that combo was unleashed.

Plus, looking at Ali's gravity, that tape does not look to be slowed down. In the 60's the speed problem with black and white flim was fixed. And usually the problem was that the film was sped up. Did Ali ever get a 3 second combo against the #1 contender? Or should we doubt Chuck can get 11 punches in 3 seconds? Also, Ali was smackin him with some diversion blows to the gut until he smoked one through the guys face. He was bappin that dude with a catipult type of arm wrestling motion to overwhelm him before the big overhands. Kind of like a drummer doing a single stroke roll on the snare drum. Once Ali opens him up, he does the Chuck Liddell overhand right a couple times, which looks a little slower than all those baps he does before it. Chuck throws punches loaded with more energy constantly...I dare say only. But hell, I don't want to take anything away from Ali...he's a faster puncher than Liddell...let's settle this speed contest.

I'm getting tired of the two of us banging our heads together. You're not going to change your mind and neither am I. I have tried on two occasions to end this on an even note for us.

I say Ali would win. You say Chuck would win. The truth is, exact specs should have been set at the beginning of the thread..

Cage or ring?
Boxing gloves or MMA?
How many rounds?
Rules?

The varying degrees of all these specs would determine who would have the best advantage. If Chuck had to fight a boxing match he'd get beat. If Ali had to wrestle he'd get beat. So if you want, go ahead and set all this up so we can start this thread again.

Then I'll make a firm decision about Muhammad whooping Chuck's anus. ;)

[herrmag]

The Flying Leg Kick:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/contrib_pix/p/a/hds/pat_morita.jpg



"If done correctly, no defense".

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

That something in the air is called space. There's no ring outside in the open. By the way... street fights on the internet? :whoknows: The hell are you going on about? I guarentee you haven't seen more UFC fights then I have, and I guarentee you have havn't been watching it longer then I have because I've watched every single one from the start. (Through completely legal means of course :paranoid: this damn digital cable ruins all the fun now...)

I can't argue with you if you think Chuck would start trying to kick guys in the face in a real fight. I just don't see it.

I still don't see it.


* We can't use that in this discussion Bac. I have that fight, it's a 100% exhibition. Ali is wrestling with boxing gloves on and he hardly ever throws a punch ever. Inoki's flying leg kicks consist of him doing slside tackles to Ali's leg and then lying on the ground for entire rounds kicking Ali in the legs when he gets close. Ali then circles him for the round trying to grasb his legs with boxing gloves on.

Even the Japanese crowd was booing.

You back up your point by proclaiming how you've seen every Martial Art fight on television, and then say that you JUST DON'T SEE KICKS working on the street. Well, I guess you're more informed than all of us. :)

And as stupid as it was for the Judo guy to lie on the ground most of the fight, why didn't Ali get on top (in the presumably dominant position) and pound him? Cuz he didn't know what he was in for, that's why.

[megared]

How is that no more a circular argument then the defense you give for Ali?

We KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that fighters can get inside with a boxer. We have seen this demonstrated in fight after fight. The question is, then, if Liddell, IF THAT WAS HIS STRATEGY, would or could do that. Ali did not knock out every boxer that came within his range.

Folks are acting as if anyone that came within Ali's range was instantly knocked out. Isn't that what has been repeated and repeated again? "Ali would just throw 11 punches and knock out Liddell!"

And you are talking about circular arugments? Did every fight of Ali's instantly stop when the opponent came within Ali's striking, and Ali instantly won with a flurry of punches? Is that the defense being put forth?



Who is to say that this fight would just be a flury of blows? You are acting as if this is a boxing match. It is a match that would allow different types of fighting techniques.

Did everyone miss that Japanese boxer fighting against Ali? Would happen to that flurry of punches that would take out the Japanese wrestler?

Sorry, I have watched Ali fights, and he clinches. He does not knock everyone out in the first 10 seconds of the fight with his superman flurries of blows. He is human: An excellent fighter, but human. And, as argued, a clinch, to defend against attacks for which he may not be familiar with, may very well put Ali on uneven territory. Let alone a leg trip from the clinch, putting Ali on his back.

I would put Fedor against Ali in a second, as well as CroCop.

You're still talking about the Ali post-exile...the guy that had only a fraction of the same handspeed and footwork. Noone's saying that Ali's going to knock Lidell out from jabs, rather Lidell would put himself in a bad situation at the time before he's close enough to grab his legs, but close enough to get tagged by Ali. It would be a great leap of faith to say that he'd get that close to someone bigger, stronger and quicker than him.

The jab would've set Ali up for something greater, and between Lidell guessing where he was going and what he actually ended up doing, Chuck would take some punishment. Ali would only clinch to gain distance, not to hold guys inside...he took very few body shots, because he could (easily) stop you in your tracks with jabs to the face.

There's one scenario under which Lidell wins...he gets a quick submission. Any other scenario favors Ali

[Baculus]

That something in the air is called space. There's no ring outside in the open. By the way... street fights on the internet? :whoknows: The hell are you going on about? I guarentee you haven't seen more UFC fights then I have, and I guarentee you have havn't been watching it longer then I have because I've watched every single one from the start. (Through completely legal means of course :paranoid: this damn digital cable ruins all the fun now...)

What? I have been watching the UFC since the first event, young man! And including PRIDE and SHODOG events, I have about every event as well in one media form or another.

Can you REALLY guarantee you have seen more events then me? Can you? At the ripe old age of 23, can you really say that you have watched more MMA AND boxing then me? You were, what, 11 when the UFC started? Heck, I was older then you are right now the first time I saw it in 1995! And let alone the boxing matches I saw before that time period...Heck, I actually remember an Ali fight when I was a kid, but I really came into boxing and fighting sports during the 80's: How old were you then?

And how many other MMA events or organizations have you seen as well?

Sorry, Mooka, I love ya like a brother, but now is not the time for a peeing match. :-) That is not the point ATM...


I can't argue with you if you think Chuck would start trying to kick guys in the face in a real fight. I just don't see it.

I still don't see it.

Why not? We have no evidence to support that he wouldn't. He throws them in the ring, so why would he suddenly forget how to kick? His main weapon isn't his kick, but he does use knee, body, and high kicks; I don't see a convincing argument that he absolutely would not use them.

After all, for the average person, he probably wouldn't need them. In another opponent: Who knows...

[Baculus]

You're still talking about the Ali post-exile...the guy that had only a fraction of the same handspeed and footwork. Noone's saying that Ali's going to knock Lidell out from jabs, rather Lidell would put himself in a bad situation at the time before he's close enough to grab his legs, but close enough to get tagged by Ali. It would be a great leap of faith to say that he'd get that close to someone bigger, stronger and quicker than him.

The jab would've set Ali up for something greater, and between Lidell guessing where he was going and what he actually ended up doing, Chuck would take some punishment. Ali would only clinch to gain distance, not to hold guys inside...he took very few body shots, because he could (easily) stop you in your tracks with jabs to the face.

There's one scenario under which Lidell wins...he gets a quick submission. Any other scenario favors Ali

I disagree, again. As I stated previous, all clinches aren't the same. A muy thai clinch, with the objective of tying up your opponents hands while allowing you to deliver knee strikes, isn't the same as a boxing clinch. And this is assuming that Ali can defend against forearms, elbows, outside leg attacks, or any sort of take down.

Where do we see evidence that Ali had any great takedown defense? The assumption is that Ali would have been able to defend against these attempts, when, in fighting practice, while punching does indeed work as a defense, it often simply isn't enough.

And that is the question, if Ali's punching and strength would be enough, for we know that strength isn't always enough to keep you upright and on your legs as opposed to landing on your back. Which, I don't think would be a good position for Ali, at any age.

[Mooka]

You back up your point by proclaiming your skills in seeing fights, and then say that you JUST DON'T SEE IT. Well, you don't see it because anybody trained well enough to be confident to use their kicks like that won't waste their time in a street fight when they have to be prepared for a fighter of equal talent. I never said anything about skills. You just keep going on with the drunk streetfight internets thing. Anybody well trained enough won't waste their time in a streetfight? Aren't we discussing a hypothetical streetfight here?

And as stupid as it was for the Judo guy to lie on the ground most of the fight, why didn't Ali get on top (in the presumably dominant position) and pound him? Cuz he didn't know what he was in for, that's why. :laugh: Dude, because it was an EXHIBITION. It wasn't a fight. It was Ali clowning around.

[Mooka]

What? I have been watching the UFC since the first event, young man! And including PRIDE and SHODOG events, I have about every event as well in one media form or another.

Can you REALLY guarantee you have seen more events then me? Can you? At the ripe old age of 23, can you really say that you have watched more MMA AND boxing then me? You were, what, 11 when the UFC started? Heck, I was older then you are right now the first time I saw it in 1995! And let alone the boxing matches I saw before that time period...Heck, I actually remember an Ali fight when I was a kid, but I really came into boxing and fighting sports during the 80's: How old were you then? Doublestroker is the same age as me. :silly:

[Baculus]

:) Nice!

I saw this bout. This pic is from the Inoki bout. Antonio Inoki is one of the first MMA fighters ever from a day when it wasn't even called MMA. Inoki's son is a Pride FC fighter today. Ali won the fight. He never went down. At least we can say Ali's been there and have some back up for what we say.

Great find, Bac.

Well, Ali only won because he wasn't knocked out. He didn't do anything after that; the bit with Ali standing on the corner ropes was pretty funny in the footage.

But it is a rather remarkable image, eh? That is cool, though: I didn't know his son was a PRIDE fighter. Thanks for the trivia! :cheers:

[Baculus]

Doublestroker is the same age as me. :silly:

Doublestroker didn't guarantee he has seen more matches then me. :-) Which may, or may not, be true, and that isn't the point of the discussion.

It is the main event: Ali vs Liddell!

[Mooka]

Doublestroker didn't guarantee he has seen more matches then me. :-) Nor did I. (which was my point in pointing out double's age in case you missed that one... ;) )

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I never said anything about skills. You just keep going on with the drunk streetfight internets thing. Anybody well trained enough won't waste their time in a streetfight? Aren't we discussing a hypothetical streetfight here?
:laugh: Dude, because it was an EXHIBITION. It wasn't a fight. It was Ali clowning around.

Right. I've just never seen a streetfight with someone who really had the skillset of a really well rounded fighter. And I'm basing my judgment on what I've seen on the internet. How do you develop your theory on the way streetfights are faught? Gang fight diaries of L.A.? I mean, I watch them on the internet to see what they're about...and I've interpreted my view already. It's not a big deal. The one thing most hypothetical here is that there just WOULDN'T be any kicking if a trained fighter was to have a fight outside.

If Ali was clowning around, they should have let the other guy know that they didn't want the American Icon injured. His leg was battered at the end of that fight. He Ali shuffled at the beginning and Ali grandpa-walked to the corner at the end of the second round. Also, if it wasn't for the ref, the perception of Ali would have been forever changed from the agony he would have displayed on his face if the Judo master pulled that kneebar sitting in his hands. Sad to see. From both ends. Very negative exhibition you might say.

[Mooka]

Right. I've just never seen a streetfight with someone who really had the skillset of a really well rounded fighter. And I'm basing my judgment on what I've seen on the internet. How do you develop your theory on the way streetfights are faught? Gang fight diaries of L.A.? I mean, I watch them on the internet to see what they're about...and I've interpreted my view already. It's not a big deal. The one thing most hypothetical here is that there just WOULDN'T be any kicking if a trained fighter was to have a fight outside. I think you're getting way to into this buddy. I was confused with all your drunk mike tyson internet thing. I just don't see Chuck Lidell kicking anyone in the face in a streetfight. You've watched him fight plenty of times, you really think he'd try kicking someone in the face? Like I said, I just don't see that one.


If Ali was clowning around, they should have let the other guy know that they didn't want the American Icon injured. His leg was battered at the end of that fight. He Ali shuffled at the beginning and Ali grandpa-walked to the corner at the end of the second round. Also, if it wasn't for the ref, the perception of Ali would have been forever changed from the agony he would have displayed on his face if the Judo master pulled that kneebar sitting in his hands. Sad to see. From both ends. Very negative exhibition you might say. Dude have you watched the thing? Ali is fine at the end of the fight, in-between he's getting his leg massaged. He's dancing around the ring for the whole thing. He's not battered like actually hurt, I'm sure it was just sore.

It's not a fight! Picture Inoki on the ground and Ali trying to grab his leg with boxing gloves on!

[megared]

I disagree, again. As I stated previous, all clinches aren't the same. A muy thai clinch, with the objective of tying up your opponents hands while allowing you to deliver knee strikes, isn't the same as a boxing clinch. And this is assuming that Ali can defend against forearms, elbows, outside leg attacks, or any sort of take down.

Where do we see evidence that Ali had any great takedown defense? The assumption is that Ali would have been able to defend against these attempts, when, in fighting practice, while punching does indeed work as a defense, it often simply isn't enough.

And that is the question, if Ali's punching and strength would be enough, for we know that strength isn't always enough to keep you upright and on your legs as opposed to landing on your back. Which, I don't think would be a good position for Ali, at any age.

I concede that Ali didn't have the skillset to compete with a MMA on the ground or avoid submissions. I'll also give that Ali out of his prime wouldn't have fared well at all if he indeed went into the fight hoping to weather the storm like he did later in his career.

But a pre-exile Ali that was conditioned to go the full fight, trained to use the whole ring, still had his incredible handspeed and footwork? The primacy to embarrass you & psychologically destroy you? I'd take Ali over anyone...