The Double Standard Exemplified

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

45 possible years. Have ANY of these female teachers who were much older than 21, with a far greater gap in age between offender and 'victim,' faced a similar sentence?

And I thought everyone maintained that girls mature faster than boys mentally? If so, why are they not going HARDER after the women offenders?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070419coach,1,4265666,print.story?coll=chi-news-hed&ctrack=2&cset=true

Ex-coach guilty in girl's sex assault
Joliet man facing 45-year prison term
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By Hal Dardick
Tribune staff reporter

April 19, 2007, 8:30 PM CDT

When the jury left the courtroom after finding Marcus Grocesley guilty on all counts in his sexual assault and abuse trial, the former Joliet Township High School District 204 volunteer track coach put his forehead on the defense table.

He held it there while the mother of the teenage victim cried and hugged the victim-witness advocate from Will County State's Atty. James Glasgow's office. The victim, 16, embraced members of her family before leaving the courtroom where she faced Grocesley twice while testifying during his four-day trial.

"I'm happy, I'm ecstatic," the girl's father said after the jury's deliberations of less than three hours. "I'm glad he was convicted. I want the max, whatever that is."

The maximum sentence is 45 years in prison and the minimum is 12, said Assistant State's Atty. Mike Fitzgerald.

The jury found Grocesley, 22, of the 700 block of Water Street in Joliet, guilty of three counts of criminal sexual assault. Each carries a sentence of 4 to 15 years, and state law requires they be served consecutively.

He also was convicted of three counts of aggravated criminal sexual abuse, each carrying a sentence ranging from probation to 7 years in prison. Those sentences would be served concurrently with the assault conviction terms.

"Marcus Grocesley preyed on a vulnerable young girl," Glasgow said. "He knew she was just a child, but he had sex with her anyway. Make no mistake, Grocesley is a dangerous predator, and she was his victim."

Will County Circuit Judge Amy Bertani-Tomczak set sentencing for June 21.

Grocesley has yet to be tried on charges he had sex with seven other girls, allegedly abusing his position of authority as an assistant track coach. To convict him of criminal sexual assault, Fitzgerald and Assistant State's Atty. Mary Fillipitch had to prove he held "a position of trust, authority or supervision in relation to the victim."

Defense attorney Bernard Shelton argued there was no evidence the girl knew Grocesley was a coach until after most, if not all, of their seven sexual encounters. They occurred from December 2005 to February 2006.

"He wasn't in a position of trust with respect to her," Shelton said in closing arguments. "She decided to have sex with him because she liked him, not because he hung out at the school."

Fillipitch argued it did not matter whether the girl knew he was a coach.

"You don't have sex with students," she said, pointing out Grocesley knew the girl was a cheerleader. "There is not a don't-ask, don't-tell policy."

Fitzgerald added that the last one or two sexual encounters happened after track season started, so the victim, who was on the girls' track team, could have seen him coaching the boys.

"Don't put the responsibility on the child," he told the jury. "The law is designed to protect the child. . . . The adult knows better. The coach knows better."

The sexual encounters occurred when the girl was 15, living with her parents and sleeping in a pink bedroom with a "princess theme" and lots of teddy bears. More than one encounter took place late at night in her bedroom when her parents were sleeping down the hall with their door closed, according to reports.

A friend of the victim testified that during a sleepover at the girl's house in early 2006, Grocesley had sex with both of them in another bedroom. In a videotaped statement Grocesley gave to police, he admitted having sex with the girl but said he thought she was "around 18." Shelton noted that high school students often are 17, the legal age of consent in Illinois, or even 18.

"I told him I was 15," the girl testified. Prosecutors said Grocesley knew she could not drive.

The girl's friend, a year older than the victim, testified Grocesley knew the younger girl was a sophomore.

The girl's mom said her daughter quit track after learning Grocesley was an assistant coach. She now is in counseling.

"She used to be an honors student," the mother said. "She's failing in school now."

Her father added, "We're hoping that now that this part is over, it will help her."

[jpillian]

45 possible years. Have ANY of these female teachers who were much older than 21, with a far greater gap in age between offender and 'victim,' faced a similar sentence?

And I thought everyone maintained that girls mature faster than boys mentally? If so, why are they not going HARDER after the women offenders?


It's a good point, Ghost. On the one hand, it sounds like this relationship was consensual (though I realize that a < 18 year old can not consent to a relationship with an adult, I do think this should be taken into account). On the other hand, as a high school coach, you've gotta realize there's no way in heck you can have a relationship with a student, or even a possible student. In addition, the guy sounded like he was seriously trolling for high schoolers (8 different girls?)

All in all, this might be an example of the disparity between sentencing male and female "statutory rapists" -- if it weren't for the fact that it sounds like it wasn't just a one-off instance, but a pattern of behavior.

[Burgold]

The other thing that jumped at me was that this wasn't a single girl, but it was multiple girls simultaneously. There was no relationship here. He was preying on and taking advantage of all these kids.

[TMK9973]

Yea - I don't think he should get off, BUT your right. Some of the cases with women are multipile. There is a huge gap.

[Zguy28]

The other thing that jumped at me was that this wasn't a single girl, but it was multiple girls simultaneously. There was no relationship here. He was preying on and taking advantage of all these kids.And that still makes it different how?

Sex with a minor is still sex with a minor. Its black and white as far as teachers are concerned in my eyes.

[Burgold]

I don't know if it's different, in fact you're probably right that it's not, but there's a part of me that can rationalize one person falling for someone and screwing up. However, if he does it repeatedly and simultaneously with multiple partners, I think that is sicker.

[Zguy28]

I don't know if it's different, in fact you're probably right that it's not, but there's a part of me that can rationalize one person falling for someone and screwing up. However, if he does it repeatedly and simultaneously with multiple partners, I think that is sicker.Isn't that what some of these female teachers did too? And they get what 5 years? Or mental evaluation?

I think that was Ghost's point.

[Burgold]

If so, Ghost's right. It's the same issue and it's a double standard. The case that sticks in my head is that one where the woman got out of prison after a number of years and then wound up marrying the twelve year old she had once erred with. I think the other that flashes in my mind was also focused on one boy as well. Maybe I've selective memory on this subject. It's certainly a subject I don't like to think about all that much.

[Mufumonk]

The other thing that jumped at me was that this wasn't a single girl, but it was multiple girls simultaneously. There was no relationship here. He was preying on and taking advantage of all these kids.

I wouldn't exactly call what he did preying on kids. He's not too far removed from H.S. either. 22 now, and they don't mention how old he was at the time of the relationship.

[Riggo-toni]

One reason for the disparity:

16 year old guy who bangs hot 25 year old teacher becomes the school hero and envy of all the other dudes his age.

16 year old girl who gets seduced by 22 year old teacher lives with shame and is an outcast among her peers.

Call it a double-standard - it is; but nevertheless I believe the damage done in statuatory rape is far worse when the perp is a man and the victim is a girl then when the perp is a babe and the victim is a dude.

[Leonard Washington]

women offenders cry in court and show more remorse ?

[Destino]

I might get slammed for this but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have a very hard time seeing a 16 year old as a "victim". I remember being 16... adults couldn't get me to do anything. Hell no one could get me to do anything I didn't want to.

I didn't know what was best for me... but I did know what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do. There was no magical Jedi mind trick going on every time I engaged an adult in a conversation allowing them to bend me to their will. If anything it was me that had more control over them. If I ever got around to saying "yes sir" they were so happy I could get away with anything.



Having said all that... this idiot in this case knew what he was doing was against the law. He did it anyway, several times in fact, and because of that he has to face his punishment. Everyone in America knows sex laws are serious, and let's face it bangin "girls" (not women) when you are in your 20's is low, pathetic, and wrong even if I don't buy into this "victim" stuff. He broke a serious law several times and no doubt would have kept on doing so if not caught.

[81artmonk]

Women tend to get the better end of the deals in these cases. It is a double standard. With that being said, I'm not sure of her name, but that recent teacher(female) who was caught, shes blonde and really hot, why weren't there teachers lke that when I was in school wanting to do me!!

[Zguy28]

I wouldn't exactly call what he did preying on kids. He's not too far removed from H.S. either. 22 now, and they don't mention how old he was at the time of the relationship.Isn't there like a 5 year buffer zone or something? He missed it by one year.

[Air Force Cane]

it is a double standard that is for sure

[dchogs]

while the situation isn't exactly the same as many of the female teachers' cases, it definitely reeks of a double standard. the guy should get the book thrown at him, but so should the female teachers.

[DCsportsfan53]

I might get slammed for this but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have a very hard time seeing a 16 year old as a "victim". I remember being 16... adults couldn't get me to do anything. Hell no one could get me to do anything I didn't want to.

I didn't know what was best for me... but I did know what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do. There was no magical Jedi mind trick going on every time I engaged an adult in a conversation allowing them to bend me to their will. If anything it was me that had more control over them. If I ever got around to saying "yes sir" they were so happy I could get away with anything.



Having said all that... this idiot in this case knew what he was doing was against the law. He did it anyway, several times in fact, and because of that he has to face his punishment. Everyone in America knows sex laws are serious, and let's face it bangin "girls" (not women) when you are in your 20's is low, pathetic, and wrong even if I don't buy into this "victim" stuff. He broke a serious law several times and no doubt would have kept on doing so if not caught.


Very well said. I agree. Unless there's a pattern of previous abuse that predisposes a child to falling victim to older predators, I'm inclined to believe the 16 year olds in these situations were very much willing and knew what they were doing.

[Henry]

that recent teacher(female) who was caught, shes blonde and really hot, why weren't there teachers lke that when I was in school wanting to do me!!

And there's your double standard. :doh:

[Henry]

I might get slammed for this but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have a very hard time seeing a 16 year old as a "victim". I remember being 16... adults couldn't get me to do anything. Hell no one could get me to do anything I didn't want to.

I didn't know what was best for me... but I did know what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do. There was no magical Jedi mind trick going on every time I engaged an adult in a conversation allowing them to bend me to their will. If anything it was me that had more control over them. If I ever got around to saying "yes sir" they were so happy I could get away with anything.

I knew what i was doing when I was 10. So therefore I should now be allowed to have sex with ten-year olds?

[Destino]

I knew what i was doing when I was 10. So therefore I should now be allowed to have sex with ten-year olds?
Yes I'm sure you knew you wanted to hit trees and random objects with a stick while making wooosh wooosh sounds. But that's not the level of thinking I'm talking about.

16 year olds aren't helpless children just because our modern society has place the arbitrary line at 18. I do however acknowledge the need for a line. Having seen too many of these helpless children that look 22 and hang out at college parties sporting fake ID's I've developed a different outlook.

[headexplode]

When you get out of high school you are no longer allowed to bang high school girls. That's my philosophy. You can think about it if you want. But you can't do it.

[Burgold]

I might get slammed for this but I've said it before and I'll say it again. I have a very hard time seeing a 16 year old as a "victim".
....

I didn't know what was best for me... but I did know what I wanted to do and what I didn't want to do.

Note to self. Never introduce teenage daughter to Destino. ;)

Seriously though, your second part is the reason that they are a victim. They don't know what's best for them and someone with more experience can take advantage of them and manipulate them.

[Henry]

Yes I'm sure you knew you wanted to hit trees and random objects with a stick while making wooosh wooosh sounds. But that's not the level of thinking I'm talking about.

And I'm sure that when you were 16 you wanted to hump random objects until you passed out with delight. But that's not the level of thinking we should be talking about either.

Kinda my point.


16 year olds aren't helpless children just because our modern society has place the arbitrary line at 18. I do however acknowledge the need for a line. Having seen too many of these helpless children that look 22 and hang out at college parties sporting fake ID's I've developed a different outlook.

Helpless? Not physically. But emotionally unprepared for a sexual relationship with an authority figure? I'd say so. So would most of the rest of our society.

Which is why we rightfully place the burden of responsibility on the authority figure in this scenerio.

[Destino]

And I'm sure that when you were 16 you wanted to hump random objects until you passed out with delight. But that's not the level of thinking we should be talking about either.

Kinda my point.
No. I was pretty discriminating even at that age. My parents raised me to be that way. I was also more then able to think ahead and take measures to avoid consequences. I even made sure I had "what I'd say" thought out before getting into any trouble.

I was less able to determine what was best for me, but then again I didn't really get a good grasp of this concept until I was 24 and working in the real world.




Helpless? Not physically. But emotionally unprepared for a sexual relationship with an authority figure? I'd say so. So would most of the rest of our society.

Which is why we rightfully place the burden of responsibility on the authority figure in this scenerio.
I never argued that he didn't do anything wrong. He did, and he did it knowingly and was clearly looking to do it again and again. He should definately pay for that.

But again, I don't view 16 year olds as helpless victims in all of this. It's not something people are comfortable saying but I bet a lot more people agree with me then are willing to admit it. I'm also not advocating that it be ok to sleep with 16 year olds. Only that the law should take their role into consideration more then it currently does. It's a fact that often time they are the ones plotting on how to get into sexual relationships Again I reference the fact that they show up in places with cover stories... they certainly aren't there in hopes of getting a free cookie and a glass of milk.

[twa]

Good post Henry.

As to the sentence?
Isn't that a result of mandatory sentencing and multiple counts?

Kinda hard to say that is a double standard, the number of counts he is charged with could possibly be...but I don't see it in this case.


As the father of a 17yr old girl, he should fry :D

[Destino]

Note to self. Never introduce teenage daughter to Destino. ;)
I wouldn't touch a teen... hell I don't even like 18 and 19 year olds, which seem to be all the rage in the adult industry. Clearly there are more pervs out there looking for the "young" look then people care to think about. I am not one of them :)




Seriously though, your second part is the reason that they are a victim. They don't know what's best for them and someone with more experience can take advantage of them and manipulate them.
Right because that knowledge is suddenly delivered to you at 18. It travels down from the heavens on a ray of sunshine.

I found that I matured in stages linked to what I was doing more then how many years I had been alive. You take a big leap when you leave for college, another when you get out, and the biggest when you go out on your own and make a life for yourself. I imagine there are more stages but that's the extent I've experienced.

[panel]

sometimes double standards are OK, I can't explain it, but I am fine with female teacher getting off on charges of sex with students, but not ok with the men getting away.

Just makes sense to me.

[Destino]

sometimes double standards are OK, I can't explain it, but I am fine with female teacher getting off on charges of sex with students, but not ok with the men getting away.

Just makes sense to me.
Pure sexism... and I completely agree. Terrible but it is what it is.

[LegionOfDoom]

He had sex under the roof of the house with the parents in the other room. He knew what he was doing.

He got caught. But the girl made a decision to be with him. He deserves to do the time but not a maxed out term for sentencing.

[Zguy28]

What about that woman Bonnie Sue Davis who alleged had sex with two boys, 14 & 15 years old in Virginia?


EDIT: Just found this after much searching.
Teacher pleads to misdemeanors
http://fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2006/092006/09232006/223700



A former Spotsylvania County high school teacher pleaded guilty yesterday to two misdemeanors involving sexual relations with teenage students.

Bonnie Sue Davis, 36, who used to teach at Courtland High School but has since resigned, entered an Alford plea yesterday in Spotsylvania Circuit Court to two misdemeanor counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

The Alford plea means Davis acknowledges that the prosecution has enough evidence for a conviction, but that she doesn't admit guilt.

A Courtland student who was 15 at the time told detectives that he had sex with Davis on several occasions during the 2005-2006 school year. A 14-year-old Courtland student told investigators that he kissed Davis, who taught math to both of the teens.

Davis denied having any sexual relationship with either boy. In a written statement, defense attorney Peter Greenspun said she took the plea agreement because it was in her best interests.

Davis, who was taken to jail after her arrest earlier this year, will not serve any additional time under the terms of the plea. She got a 12-month suspended jail sentence.

Davis will no longer be allowed to teach in any public school in Virginia, under the terms of the plea agreement. She could teach somewhere outside the state or at a private school in Virginia, but she said after court that she doesn't intend to return to the classroom.

According to prosecution evidence, the 14-year-old's mother found her son and Davis together in a dark bedroom the evening of this past Feb. 10. Her son was on a bed, and Davis was on a couch. Davis reportedly told the boy's mother that she was "just checking on" the 14-year-old. The mother and son then left. The boy later told detectives that Davis had been wearing nothing but a sweatshirt and socks in the room.

The 15-year-old told detectives that he and Davis had started flirting with each other at school. That led to a sexual relationship, according to prosecution evidence. The 15-year-old told police that he had sex with Davis the night that the 14-year-old's mother found her son in the bedroom with the teacher. He was able to accurately describe tattoos that Davis had on her body.

Greenspun submitted paperwork to the court giving Davis' side of the story. The teacher "adamantly denies engaging in any sexual conduct or behavior" with the students.

According to the paperwork, Davis' tattoos were well known to the Courtland High School community because students had once had a scavenger hunt in which one of the questions asked them to identify the teacher with "eight piercings and four tattoos." That teacher was Davis.

[China]

If you want to see what female teachers get for these types of crimes, here is a list of them (w/ pics) with details of their crimes/status.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53859

Of note, even the judges acknowlegde the double standard:


Cameo Patch, 29: Substitute teacher at Tooele High School in Tooele, Utah, arrested for allegedly performing oral sex on a 17-year-old male student. The sexual activity was allegedly consensual, and reportedly took place off school grounds after the pair had exchanged phone numbers in a restaurant. In November 2006, Patch was sentenced to no jail time, despite comments from the judge that a man would have likely gone to prison.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

I had completely forgotten about this thread after I posted it. Guess my mind and heart's been on other things recently :(

Anyways, I still stand by what I said. I'm not saying this guy doesn't deserve SOME punishment but the idea that he even faces 40 years while America laughs or even PITIES these women is ridiculous. Roman women would pay to have sex with the top gladiators, women are capable of lasciviousness no less than a man. You're telling me the MULTITUDES of women getting caught and getting off (WITHOUT punishment, you gutter-minded sons o' bs!) are all so different from this guy? They see young men/boys they can easily please, no strings (generally) and use their position of closeness and the allure of authority to obtain sex. It's what this guy did.

As for the idea that there SHOULD be a double standard when it comes to this? Nah. Because that then extends to murder sentences and all manner of other crimes. Women simply aren't punished as men are and that is NOT just the way it should be. Unless women are willing to have the vote stripped from them or take a step down the social status/power/privilege ladder, which I doubt (and do not propose, of course.)

If I were a man facing these charges, I would appeal based on 14th amendment grounds. Either we are equal before the law or we are not. If a judge actually SAYS that a man would have gone to jail for the same offense, then the courts/legislatures/etc are violating the Constituion, let alone ethics and morality.

[Art]

I've said before in these cases and I'll say again, if one of my daughter's gets taken advantage of by an older man, I'll be doing the jail time. If my son -- one I don't yet have -- bangs the hottie teacher, I'll be holding a kegger. There isn't a "double" standard. There's a difference between men and women.

Honest.

I'd also let my son have a beer with me when he's a teenager. I'd probably let my daughter have a glass of wine with me. I was at Toys R Us today buying my daughter her first bike. She wanted the "pink one". She got that one. My boy could want that one too, and would be denied, as another couple with a boy who wanted the same bike denied him. When you guys figure out there's also a difference in how sexual relationships are taught and handled between sexes, you might realize there'll be a difference in how sex with minors is handled.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

There is a difference between men and women but equality before the law should not be one of them. Just as there may be a difference in physical strength or what-have-you but they shouldn't have different standards for a passing score for the military, police or fire department.

Also, what struck me about some of these cases is that this guy is 22 and looks like the girls were 16 and up. A generation, maybe two ago, this would not have been out of the ordinary.

IN FACT, it's not out of the ordinary pretty much most of the world, and no I'm not defending marrying off a 12 year old girl to a 30 year old man but 22 and 16-17? Please. That's one year outside of that buffer they establish in some states. be lucky it's not Canada because the age limit is 14.

If a 14-17 year old can be held responsible for murder, something that is outside the norm of the average human being (let alone young person's) normal thinking and state of mind, then how can they not be held responsible for their decision to engage in something that IS quite normal for someone their age and often, when it occurs, shows a great deal of manipulation and deception by the 'victim.'

I believe that a fake ID being given would be a valid defense for a man on trial for statutory or improper contact with a minor. So, that's it? It's a crime if he knows and not a crime if he doesn't? It's either wrong or it isnt. In the case of the deception, we are holding the girl responsible for her actions (though not criminally, of course) by not charging the man. But if there is no ID deception but the girl lies about her age or the man is a year outside of the buffer, all of a sudden it's a great moral transgression?

is a 21-22 year old man MORE guilty than a 37 year old female teacher who has a family, children and should know (at least by THAT age) a lot better? That seems absurd on its face.

EDIT: You never explained how this double standard when it comes to a sexual matter seems REMARKABLY similar to the double standards when it comes to sentencing for criminal infractions, women getting pregnant JUST in TIME for combat (and not facing charges,) divorce court and child custody cases. Seems to me if it exists in favor of women in all these other areas, then the "sex is different with men and women" defense would not seem credible as an explanation.

[Art]

Women and children first, Ghost.

That is our society. Period. Deal with it. The ship is sinking and it's women and children we are trained as a society and as men to SAVE. To PROTECT. You know this. So, don't be surprised when an adult male screws a minor child in this country that HE is seen as a predator to prey but an adult woman who screws a minor child in this country is seen differently.

Mostly men ARE the predator and women ARE the prey sexually. We have the outtie. They have to willingly surrender. As a white man, I understand the absurd nature of a society that ever turns against us, treating us differently in negative ways, but, as a MAN I value the premise I have some responsibility to protect women and children in this society and when another man violates that, we seek to punish him more harshly because he deserves it more.

Now, I don't disagree with as to sexual laws in this country. Our enlightened Canadian brothers give the age of consent at 14. I also question the law holding a man responsible if he can somewhat reasonably be said to not be certain as to the age of the person he's with. Years ago I was actually in a situation where I can be said not to have known the age of someone until a few nights into the relationship. When I found out, I stopped.

In my case, it would have been unlikely the courts would have seen me as a threat to minors because the manner of our meeting was through someone of age, in a place you had to be of age, in a situation that was not one I would reasonably have thought to question. Here, the story is a tad different. You have a guy who's at a high school. He knows the score. And he's sneaking into her basement. Again, he knows the score.

America, as a society, still holds pretty conservatively around sexual things. I was listening to a Christian Bale interview about American Psycho and he said a sex scene in the movie gave it an NC-17 rating so it was cut for R and he offered it struck him as odd America was the only country to see a different movie and how it wasn't the violence that anyone objected to, but the sex. Typically American he said.

And it is.

We are far more uptight about sex than just about any other country.

But, as our social norms around appropriate sexual behavior break down, that'll change. In a generation, the country will further redefine its norms in a way that may not be all that good an idea. But, that's never stopped us before from "evolving".