Ozone from Ethanol?

[artnjudy]

I have faith that alternative fuels will be developed that are better on the lungs than fossil fuels, but is E85 the answer? I belief it will in the future, but it does not appear that it is there yet.

www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/E85PaperEST0207.pdf (http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/E85PaperEST0207.pdf)
www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/E85Paper0806b_2.pdf (http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/E85Paper0806b_2.pdf)

[PeterMP]

First, let's see what other researchers have to say about this. In the next year or so I'm sure other people will look at this and there will start to be some sort of consensus. It is a a study based on models and satistics it is possible that there are unseen issues:

As any good scientist would do in a study like this the author clearly hedges his bets in several places:

"The relative risk of ozone mortality may increase above unity at about 35 ppbv (e.g., Fig. 2 of 32), the cutoff assumed here for mortality, hospitalization, and asthma."

Italics added by me.

"In sum, due to its similar cancer risk but enhanced ozone health risk in the base emission case, a future fleet of E85 may cause a greater health risk than gasoline."

Italics added by me.

"Because both gasoline and E85 emission controls are likely to improve, it is unclear whether one could provide significantly more emission reduction than the other."

Second, he is using projected emission control laws for his study. There is no reason why those can't be changed. Currently, every car has a catalytic converter to help deal w/ ozone forming molecules w/ studies like this out there it might be possible to improve or alter those so that they are better suited for ethanol using engines. A study like this is likely to get people looking at just such a thing and then this problem can be reduced.

[artnjudy]

First, let's see what other researchers have to say about this. In the next year or so I'm sure other people will look at this and there will start to be some sort of consensus. It is a a study based on models and satistics it is possible that there are unseen issues:

As any good scientist would do in a study like this the author clearly hedges his bets in several places:

"The relative risk of ozone mortality may increase above unity at about 35 ppbv (e.g., Fig. 2 of 32), the cutoff assumed here for mortality, hospitalization, and asthma."

Italics added by me.

"In sum, due to its similar cancer risk but enhanced ozone health risk in the base emission case, a future fleet of E85 may cause a greater health risk than gasoline."

Italics added by me.

"Because both gasoline and E85 emission controls are likely to improve, it is unclear whether one could provide significantly more emission reduction than the other."

Second, he is using projected emission control laws for his study. There is no reason why those can't be changed. Currently, every car has a catalytic converter to help deal w/ ozone forming molecules w/ studies like this out there it might be possible to improve or alter those so that they are better suited for ethanol using engines. A study like this is likely to get people looking at just such a thing and then this problem can be reduced.


I agree and believe it will change. The issue, is based upon the current E-85 make-up, people would be harmed if everyone converted today.:cheers:

[PeterMP]

I agree and believe it will change. The issue, is based upon the current E-85 make-up, people would be harmed if everyone converted today.:cheers:

Based on the current availible sources of ethanol it isn't possible for everybody to convert today so that is not an issue. There isn't enough E-85 for the people that have engines that can use it now, which is why the price of corn is going up because it is being used to produce more ethanol.

Hopefully, somebody that knows about catalytic converters and what is happening in them will be able to look at this study and make changes that are better suited for burning ethanol rather than gasoline, and those changes will negate this study.

[artnjudy]

Based on the current availible sources of ethanol it isn't possible for everybody to convert today so that is not an issue. There isn't enough E-85 for the people that have engines that can use it now, which is why the price of corn is going up because it is being used to produce more ethanol.

Hopefully, somebody that knows about catalytic converters and what is happening in them will be able to look at this study and make changes that are better suited for burning ethanol rather than gasoline, and those changes will negate this study.

I agree with you totally, but the studies do state that it is what they make the alcohol out of that impacts the ozone levels the most. I'm hoping that they can develop a process to lessen ozone from corn alcohol, but maybe they can find other sources that are even better.

[PeterMP]

I agree with you totally, but the studies do state that it is what they make the alcohol out of that impacts the ozone levels the most. I'm hoping that they can develop a process to lessen ozone from corn alcohol, but maybe they can find other sources that are even better.

Sugar plants are already a better method to produce ethanol. The sugar molecules are the most direct way to produce ethanol, it is easier to get suger out of sugar plants, and more ethanol can be produced from a sugar plant.

Corn has very little sugar. It contains starch, which must be isolated, and then converted to sugar, which can then be converted to ethanol, but as compared to sugar plants less sugar is obtained so less ethanol can be produced.

There are economic issues w/ using sugar in this country because the federal goverment taxes ethanol coming into the country and mantains limits on sugar that can be imported. Of course, those could be eliminated.

[artnjudy]

Sugar plants are already a better method to produce ethanol. The sugar molecules are the most direct way to produce ethanol, it is easier to get suger out of sugar plants, and more ethanol can be produced from a sugar plant.

Corn has very little sugar. It contains starch, which must be isolated, and then converted to sugar, which can then be converted to ethanol, but as compared to sugar plants less sugar is obtained so less ethanol can be produced.

There are economic issues w/ using sugar in this country because the federal goverment taxes ethanol coming into the country and mantains limits on sugar that can be imported. Of course, those could be eliminated.


I agree and unless someone else provide a comment, then we pleasantly agree on this issue. Please see my response in How Much CO2 Did Katrina Wash into the Ocean :cheers: