The Turner Zone (Merged)

[Om]

Originally wrote this for the blog but opted against including it. Damn thing was long enough already. Figure this is a subject Skins fans who lived through the Norvous Years might get a kick out of tracking this year, though, given that our franchise and this decent but star-struck man will be tied together in the pages of NFL history forever.

At any rate, I'm planning to track our former boy all year, so please feel free to participate. If this turns into anything I'll probably move the series to Around the NFL in future weeks. And if it simply dies quietly on the vine right here, so be it. It would seem appropriate somehow.

*

The Turner Zone - Week 1

I know it’s preseason and all, but I couldn’t keep from tuning in as Norv Turner--the NFL’s answer to salt spilled on a black cat--took to the sidelines for this debut as head coach of the San Diego Chargers. Coming off a 14-2 season, playing at home before an adoring, expectant sellout crowd under a sparkling southern California sky, Norv wasted little time introducing his unique aura to Charger football.

On the game’s opening drive, San Diego grabbed a nice interception off Seattle QB Matt Hasselbeck, returning it deep into Seahawk territory and igniting the crowd…..only to have it nullified by an iffy holding call. The Seahawks then proceeded methodically down the field and scored.

On their first drive, the Chargers moved smartly from their own 24 to an apparent first down at the Seattle 31…..but got flagged for holding on the play that got them there, pushing them back to the 41. On the next play they were called for a false start. Then, they gave up a sack that put them in 3rd and 17. They got 16 of them back (on a sweet catch-and-run by my new favorite non-Redskin, 5’ 6” running back D. Sproles, in the SD mini-back tradition of Lionel “Little Train” James)…..but, predictably, got stuffed on 4th and 1.

Fast forward to the end of the game.

Leading by two with seven minutes to go, the Charger defense stopped Seattle at the Charger 23, and got huge a break when J. Brown’s 41-yard FT attempt went wide left. Except that San Diego was flagged for 12 men on the field…..and Brown calmly drove the mulligan down the center. Seattle takes the lead.

Getting the ball back with less than 2 minutes to go and now down by 8, San Diego puts together a decent two-minute drill, and moves smartly from their own 28 to the Seahawks 26. With 13 seconds left and time for at a couple shot into the end zone, on 3rd and two the QB lobs a duck down the deep middle, which is easily picked off at the Seattle 6. Game over.

San Diego runs 15 more offensive plays than Seattle, tops them in total yards and rushing yards, breaks even on passing yards, dominates time of possession, but gets penalized eight times to Seattle’s two, gets sacked five times to Seattle’s one…..and, in the end, loses.

Welcome to the Turner Zone, children of the sun.

[Raub]

I warned Raiders Nation a few years ago, and feel sorry for Chargers fans now. Prepare to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.....over and over and over.

[Pete]

It wasn't more then two minutes ago, I posted a message to a Raiders fan about ol Norvitis.

:puke:

[zoony]

:laugh:... so true, so true


I heard someone (announcer on NFL network? can't remember) say that Turner has been given keys to a Ferrari. It just struck me as the perfect analogy to describe the situation... I see it ending very similarly to how Ferris Bueller's Day Off did.

And on another note... I think time will prove that San Diego, despite popular opinion 2-3 years ago, has the worst GM in professional football.

Cutting Drew Brees, firing Schotty, and hiring Turner... all within a short time. I'm beginning to think he's a Raiders fan or something.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Wow, that brought back a horrible nightmare known as 1994-2000

[MEANDWARF]

Almost feel sorry for Chargers fans now that they have to put with this. Will L.T. numbers go down now that Nurv in charge? Remains to be seen.

[arkowi]

God, that is all so sinisterly familiar.

[CM916]

I'm a little worried that with a 14-2 team behind him, Norv just might win ten games and make the playoffs. I recently did a little analysis of recent Redskin coaches and one thing I noticed about Norv is that with enough talent on the roster, he can almost get it done. If Rivers gets hurt, cut, and replaced by Jeff George shortly before winning the super bowl elsewhere, then we will know the truth about their GM.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=206709&page=3
Edit: Heh, I just noticed that I got a new avatar... :cheers: Ride them Dirtbags.

[Isifhan]

I see it ending very similarly to how Ferris Bueller's Day Off did.



Perhaps he can drive the team backwards to take the losses off.

[Touchdown Redskins]

It wasn't more then two minutes ago, I posted a message to a Raiders fan about ol Norvitis.

:puke:

Oh no, your Norv is inflamed!

Sorry, couldn't help it.:D

Seriously, though, the statistics are classic Norv. You would think that teams would get it by now, and that it's probably better to take a chance on a young assistant than get stuck with Norv-induced mediocrity for the next couple of years.

[Thirtyfive2seven]

I wonder when the Chargers will start having kicker problems.

[OriginalWhizzinator]

Prepare to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.....over and over and over.

The Bolts have already done that countless times in the past few years thanks to another ex-skin coach and his comically unfortunate strategy of "martyball".

Iv'e caught most of the games being out here in SD, and really dont know if Norv will be able to live up (or down, as it were) to the choking clinic that marty put on out here. It was really something to behold, and spawned a new phrase: Martyocracy.

Anyway, it should be entertaining, and im interested in following this series OM. I'll try to get a few of my charger buddies on here to get their take.

[CM916]

I wish Dallas had taken him back, we were so close. It's more fun to see them go 9-7 and miss the boat than 5-11 under coach jerrah.

[bschurm]

I wrote about this in a thread when the decision was made that Turner would be the head coach. He has no discipline and it will tell in their play.


Now I don't want to sound like a number of our members with their cries of doom after just one pre-season game and say that San Diego's sky is falling, but it just seems like the same old thing we in the Nation's Capitol remember so vividly.

I thought they had a great GM in San Diego.

[mi6]

Wow, that brought back a horrible nightmare known as 1994-2000

Norv Turner was a good offensive coordinator ... But, I don't think he is head coach material. :logo:

[Chief skin]

Norv does not have what it takes to be a head coach. The GM in san diego has been out in the sun to long, I will enjoy watching the Chargers stumble and bumble through a Norv season

[Loxley]

Norv-watch, gotta love that idea. It will provide some light-hearted and comical distraction to the NFC battlegrounds come September. Perhaps this "experiment" will finally prove to be the nail in his "head coach" coffin.

[Major Harris]

what would be the most classic norv game w/ the 'skins?

i vote for the 2000 game in arizona.

more than twice as many first downs.

over 400 yds of offense, allowed only 178.

no punts. that's right, the 'skins didn't punt once.

77 plays to 44 plays for the cards.

37:26 to 22:34 edge in T.O.P.

and we lost.

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2000-10-was-arz

i flew across the country to see that game. 4th row, 35 yard line behind the 'skins bench, 35 dollars. :doh:

[zoony]

what would be the most classic norv game w/ the 'skins?

i vote for the 2000 game in arizona.

more than twice as many first downs.

over 400 yds of offense, allowed only 178.

no punts. that's right, the 'skins didn't punt once.

77 plays to 44 plays for the cards.

37:26 to 22:34 edge in T.O.P.

and we lost.

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2000-10-was-arz

i flew across the country to see that game. 4th row, 35 yard line behind the 'skins bench, 35 dollars. :doh:



I remember watching that game from an apartment I was renting at the time. I also remember going to Home Depot to buy a wall-repair kit so I could get my security deposit back later that week.

[DieselPwr44]

"What we do works....."

[Chief skin]

"What we do works....."


Oh Yeah I wonder how many times he will tell the san diego media "what we do works" what he fails to do (and he is use to failure) is finish the statement. What we do works for our opponent

[SkinsFTW]

what would be the most classic norv game w/ the 'skins?

i vote for the 2000 game in arizona.


That whole season was pathetic. We won 5 in a row against playoff teams, 2 of which were the eventual SB teams, also beat Jax, Philly, and TB, then lost 6 of 8 to go 8-8 for the year.

Every bad team beat us and we beat every good team on our schedule except Tennessee, and that SHOULD have been a win.

I started wondering back in 1996-1997 why Norv was still there. It just made no sense.

[SkinsFTW]

"What we do works....."

Until we play a bad team like the Raiders. I bet the Raiders sweep the Chargers this year. They will at least win 1 of them, guaranteed. The Raiders will be like Dallas and Arizona was for Norv here, lol.

[Om]

The Bolts have already done that countless times in the past few years thanks to another ex-skin coach and his comically unfortunate strategy of "martyball".

Iv'e caught most of the games being out here in SD, and really dont know if Norv will be able to live up (or down, as it were) to the choking clinic that marty put on out here. It was really something to behold, and spawned a new phrase: Martyocracy.

Anyway, it should be entertaining, and im interested in following this series OM. I'll try to get a few of my charger buddies on here to get their take.
There you go. :)

Funny thing is, for me it's not about making fun of Norv any more. I actually do kind of like the guy. And it's not about wishing ill on the Chargers--they've been one of just a couple "other" NFL teams I've liked and pulled for all my life. For me it's about the almost surreal circumstances under which Turner's teams find ways to lose games.

Not ALL games, of course--part of the equation is that his teams are usually good enough to get TO the big game ... but then find the most heartrending, gutwrenching, mindbending ways to blow them anyone has ever seen, with an almost eerie predictability.

Maybe he had an Old World ancestor who failed to carry a wise woman up a mountain like he'd promised and is living a family curse--I don't know. What I do know is that there is something ... different ... about Norv Turner as an NFL head coach, and it fascinates me on some level. Figuring I may not be alone in that feeling among Redskins fans, I think it could be interesting to track this season in real time.

The script is written. Norv Turner has been handed a made-to-order Super Bowl contender. No questions about talent this time. No questions about a "real GM." No questions about a "meddling owner." Just Norv and his Destiny, all laid out like a huge dinner banquet.

Its like the universe is intent on spreading jalapeno relish on milquetoast, setting up a booth in the middle of Mall America and conducting a huge blindfold taste-test experiment with cameras rolling. I'm cool with that. I've survived (mostly) the Turner Zone already. I'm pre-disastered. And I don't do blindfolds except in the bedr----well, never mind.

Anyway, point is we've got front row seats. Pass the popcorn.

[Oldfan]

Norv Turner was a good offensive coordinator ... But, I don't think he is head coach material. :logo:

A.J. Smith, the GM at San Diego, knows what he's doing. It's easier to coach the defense thus very good defensive coaches are easier to find than very good offensive coaches. Smith has used the head coaching job as a prize to draw the best O coordinator fit available for his team away from a competitor. That's smart in my opinion.

Norv's offense is similar to Cam Cameron's, so there is continuity in scheme.

A.J. Smith isn't Charlie Casserly. He has more talent and more power than Charlie. And, you can bet your ass that he will make the final decision on all roster moves, which will nullify Norv's principal weakness as a head coach.

[chipwhich]

A.J. Smith, the GM at San Diego, knows what he's doing. It's easier to coach the defense thus very good defensive coaches are easier to find than very good offensive coaches. Smith has used the head coaching job as a prize to draw the best O coordinator fit available for his team away from a competitor. That's smart in my opinion.

Norv's offense is similar to Cam Cameron's, so there is continuity in scheme.

A.J. Smith isn't Charlie Casserly. He has more talent and more power than Charlie. And, you can bet your ass that he will make the final decision on all roster moves, which will nullify Norv's principal weakness as a head coach.

Scratching my head....

HUH?

I would never use "Norv Turner" "Head Coach" and "Smart Move" in the same post.

[Park City Skins]

This could bring up painful memories. Chargers fans have my condolences.

[Oldfan]

Scratching my head....

HUH?

I would never use "Norv Turner" "Head Coach" and "Smart Move" in the same post.

I explained my thinking. Where did I go wrong?

[Riggo-toni]

What really ticks me off is after they fired Schotferbrains, I was planning on rooting for the Chargers to go to the SB...until they hired Norvo the Clown. Now it's a catch-22 - I want them to be rewarded for getting rid of the Schothead, but I want any team with Norvo the Clown to collapse into oblivion. What's a hater to do?

[chipwhich]

I explained my thinking. Where did I go wrong?

Your post was great with the exception of Head Coach. Had they brought him in as an O Coordinator...fine. Norv doesn't have the toughness it takes when things go wrong to be a head coach. As soon as anything begins to go bad he will be a lame duck out there. Bad move hiring him in my opinion.

[Om]

I explained my thinking. Where did I go wrong?
Pretty sure it's that your post read as if Smith had hired Turner to be his offensive coordinator. I don't think anyone questions Norv's credentials as an OC, but that's not the issue this time around. It's Head Coach Norv Turner we're talking about now. I think it's fair to say most folks draw a pretty bright line of distinction between the two roles.

*

Edit: missed previous post while writing this one.

[Oldfan]

Your post was great with the exception of Head Coach. Had they brought him in as an O Coordinator...fine. Norv doesn't have the toughness it takes when things go wrong to be a head coach. As soon as anything begins to go bad he will be a lame duck out there. Bad move hiring him in my opinion.

Smith couldn't bring Norv in as an O coordinator. He was already under contract with the niners in that capacity.

Think Dan Turk. Was that bad snap that dumped us from the playoffs an anomaly or predictable? Turk had never showed the consistency at his job that a demanding head coach would have accepted. Expand that problem over a 53 man roster, and you see that the lack of talent on our roster in those years wasn't solely Casserly's fault.

On the other hand, Norv's offensive production with Brad Johnson and a very weak O line that year was a minor miracle.

[SkinsHokieFan]

what would be the most classic norv game w/ the 'skins?

i vote for the 2000 game in arizona.

more than twice as many first downs.

over 400 yds of offense, allowed only 178.

no punts. that's right, the 'skins didn't punt once.

77 plays to 44 plays for the cards.

37:26 to 22:34 edge in T.O.P.

and we lost.

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2000-10-was-arz

i flew across the country to see that game. 4th row, 35 yard line behind the 'skins bench, 35 dollars. :doh:

My buddy and I were watching that game in our dorm room

When SD fumbled and Aneas Williams returned it 100 yards for a TD we just looked at each other and were like "are you serious?"

Of course in the back of our head we knew that, and the missed extra point would haunt us that day :doh:

[Oldfan]

Pretty sure it's that your post read as if Smith had hired Turner to be his offensive coordinator. I don't think anyone questions Norv's credentials as an OC, but that's not the issue this time around. It's Head Coach Norv Turner we're talking about now. I think it's fair to say most folks draw a pretty bright line of distinction between the two roles.

*

Edit: missed previous post while writing this one.

See my response to Chipwhich. Smith didn't have the option of bringing in Norv as his OC.

[DB44]

I warned Raiders Nation a few years ago, and feel sorry for Chargers fans now. Prepare to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.....over and over and over. :doh: Ain't that the truth!
It's not that I hate Norv Turner, because he was such a nice guy...it was that with all of his wonderful offensive designs he (meaning his teams) would find new and inventive ways to lose.

Some of the losses were so inventive, you'd have thought you were in a different dimension.

It really is amazing that this stigma has stayed with him where ever he goes.

Yep, sorry Chargers fans!

Edit: Thanks OM, some wounds never heal. :D

[chipwhich]

Smith couldn't bring Norv in as an O coordinator. He was already under contract with the niners in that capacity.

Think Dan Turk. Was that bad snap that dumped us from the playoffs an anomaly or predictable? Turk had never showed the consistency at his job that a demanding head coach would have accepted. Expand that problem over a 53 man roster, and you see that the lack of talent on our roster in those years wasn't solely Casserly's fault.

On the other hand, Norv's offensive production with Brad Johnson and a very weak O line that year was a minor miracle.

Norv is haunted by stories like you describe above.

Norv will break SD Fans hearts.

On top of that Marty is known for getting the most out of his teams until the playoffs. Norv isn't that way. He gets mediocrity.

[sens11]

The Turner Zone...


Stay away..Stay very far away!

Turner summed up his whole time as a Redskins coach during this game...

The offensive guru in a 7-7 tie with Gus' head going into the wall!

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sports/redskins/longterm/1997/gamerep/week13/skins24.htm

[Oldfan]

Norv is haunted by stories like you describe above.

Norv will break SD Fans hearts.

On top of that Marty is known for getting the most out of his teams until the playoffs. Norv isn't that way. He gets mediocrity.

In Dan Snyder's shoes, I would have dumped Casserly and looked for someone with more ability to replace him. I would have kept Norv but limited his responsibilities in order to cancel out his weaknesses. This is what I suspect A.J. Smith is doing.

Norv Turner was the best man available to run that offense right now and naming him the head coach was the only way that Smith could bring him to San Diego.


I like the move.

[H@iL2Gibb$]

I heard someone (announcer on NFL network? can't remember) say that Turner has been given keys to a Ferrari

too bad he can't drive stick

[Om]

OF,

Truth is, despite your apparently totally missing the point and spirit of the thread, I'm glad you stepped to Norv's defense. This is America, where everyone's entitled to a zealous defense. Pull up a chair and consider yourself appointed. :)

[Oldfan]

OF,

Truth is, despite your apparently totally missing the point and spirit of the thread, I'm glad you stepped to Norv's defense. This is America, where everyone's entitled to a zealous defense. Pull up a chair and consider yourself appointed. :)

Oh, I don't think I missed the point or the spirit of your thread. I think it's a great idea and look forward to more from you.

I didn't think you intended it as just another "bash Norv" thread. Did you? If not, then most of the posters so far have missed your point and the spirit of the thread -- so why do you single me out?

[SkinsFTW]

I like the move.

Dude, Norv Turner is garbage.

They probably could have done as well by hiring Dan Henning, lol.

Rich Kotite is still available also. :laugh: :laugh:

[Om]

Oh, I don't think I missed the point or the spirit of your thread. I think it's a great idea and look forward to more from you.

I didn't think you intended it as a "bash Norv" thread. Did you? If not, then most of the posters so far have missed your point and the spirit of the thread -- so why do you single me out?
I stated off the top it wasn't a bash Norv thread. You must have missed it.

Two reasons for "singling you out":

1) When I did so, you still seemed to be missing the point that this wasn't about Norv Turner the brilliant Offensive Coordinator, but Norv Turner the bizarrely star-crossed Head Coach.

2) You're one of a tiny minority--people who think Turner is good Head Coach and A.J. Smith made a smart move hiring him as one. And you appear prepared to assume that role, which, as stated, I think is great.

We good?

[Leonard Washington]

thanks now watch the chargers win the super bowl. nice move om :doh:

[Langford78]

Dude, Norv Turner is garbage.

They probably could have done as well by hiring Dan Henning, lol.

Rich Kotite is still available also. :laugh: :laugh:

I was PRAYING the Cowturds would hire him as their head coach.:dallasuck

[cuchip703]

Talk about deja vu. I opened this thread and was reading a great analysis of a Redskins game I remember watching in 1998...then realized I just watched it again the other night only Washington wasn't wearing Burgundy and Gold... ahhh the Turner Zone

[Oldfan]

I stated off the top it wasn't a bash Norv thread. You must have missed it.

Two reasons for "singling you out":

1) When I did so, you still seemed to be missing the point that this wasn't about Norv Turner the brilliant Offensive Coordinator, but Norv Turner the bizarrely star-crossed Head Coach.

2) You're one of a tiny minority--people who think Turner is good Head Coach and A.J. Smith made a smart move hiring him as one. And you appear prepared to assume that role, which, as stated, I think is great.

We good?

As to 1) This reason for singling me out is bogus since my first post was not a response to your OP, but this one which was quoted:



Originally Posted by mi6
Norv Turner was a good offensive coordinator ... But, I don't think he is head coach material. :logo:


As to 2) You're playing with words when you conclude that "You're one of a tiny minority--people who think Turner is good Head Coach." My position is that the hiring makes sense if San Diego's GM intends to limit the responsibility normally given to a head coach.

I am pleased that you appreciate a fresh perspective on the topic. So, I have no problem at all.

[Om]

I was PRAYING the Cowturds would hire him as their head coach.:dallasuck
Not a religious man myself ... but we were definitely on the same page. :)

Take Norv Turner. Please. (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189430)

[China]

With apologies to Neil Peart (imagine this to the tune of The Twilight Zone by Rush)

The Turner Zone

A pock-mark faced man steps up to greet you
He smiles and says he's pleased to meet you
Beneath his headphones the strangeness lies
Take them off, he's got three eyes
Truth is false and logic lost
Now the fourth dimension is crossed...

You have entered the Turner Zone
Beyond this world strange things are known
Lose the lead, drop the pass
Watch as your team runs out of gas...
Come explore your teams frustration
Enter this world of sheer devastation...

You wake up in your reclining chair
Watch the ball float through the air
Look up to see the punt get muffed
On fourth and goal the runner is stuffed
No escape, no place to hide
Here where time and space collide

[Om]

Nothing like a little Chinese wisdom. :)

[jrockster21]

Almost feel sorry for Chargers fans now that they have to put with this. Will L.T. numbers go down now that Nurv in charge? Remains to be seen.

Well, to be fair to Norval, L.T.'s numbers really have nowhere to go BUT down after his season last year. However the one thing you can say Norv is good at is getting production from his RBs. Look at LaMont Jordan in 2005, Ricky Williams in Miami, Stephen Davis here...he has a knack for it.

[Oldfan]

Well, to be fair to Norval, L.T.'s numbers really have nowhere to go BUT down after his season last year. However the one thing you can say Norv is good at is getting production from his RBs. Look at LaMont Jordan in 2005, Ricky Williams in Miami, Stephen Davis here...he has a knack for it.

...Frank Gore, 49ers

[jrockster21]

...Frank Gore, 49ers

Damnit, I knew I was forgetting somebody. :laugh:

[phatSkins27]

I warned Raiders Nation a few years ago, and feel sorry for Chargers fans now. Prepare to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.....over and over and over.

I posted this exact thing in ATN not 40 minutes before you

[ntotoro]

The Bolts have already done that countless times in the past few years thanks to another ex-skin coach and his comically unfortunate strategy of "martyball".

Ironically enough they got rid of Marty and thought Norval would be what got the final push they needed... :laugh:

Chargers fans... get used to sucking defeat from the jaws of victory.

[BigMike619]

Living out here in SD i cant help but laugh at these charger fans. but charger fans are really weird, they are really quick to jump on and off the bandwagon and are just happy with making the playoffs. all this talent and they dont care that they get beat on their home turf 2 years in a row in the playoffs. they think that kaeding is a great kicker even though he lost BOTH games for them.

great city...weird ass fans..

[Anne The Fan]

Norv Turner was a good offensive coordinator ...
The following is the offensive rank of each team that Norv has coached, either as an offensive coordinator or a head coach. Note that I have only listed team rankings for points scored and yards gained; if there’s another category that should have been included in the mix, I apologize for having omitted it.

1991: Dallas Cowboys (OC): Pts 7; Yds 8
1992: Dallas Cowboys (OC): Pts 2; Yds 4
1993: Dallas Cowboys (OC): Pts 2; Yds 4
1994: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 13; Yds 19
1995: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 18; Yds 16
1996: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 8; Yds 16
1997: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 15; Yds 19
1998: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 17; Yds 12
1999: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 2; Yds 2
2000: Washington Redskins (HC): Pts 24; Yds 11
2001: San Diego Chargers (OC): Pts 14; Yds 15
2002: Miami Dolphins (OC): Pts 12; Yds 15
2003: Miami Dolphins (OC): Pts 17; Yds 24
2004: Oakland Raiders (HC): Pts 18; Yds 20
2005: Oakland Raiders (HC): Pts 23; Yds 21
2006: San Francisco 49ers (OC): Pts 24; Yds 26

www.pro-football-reference.com

In 16 years of coaching, Norv’s offenses have cracked the top 10 in both categories exactly 4 times (1991, 1992, 1993 and 1999); 3 of those 4 years he had the Triplets at his disposal. He also cracked the top 10 in only one category in 1996. That means that Norv has cracked the top third of the rankings slightly less than one third of his coaching tenure (i.e., 5 out of 16 years). The rest of the time his offenses have been middling or worse. In fact, his production seems to have declined noticeably in the last four years, although personnel may have played a role in that. (God knows, Norv will tell you that it wasn’t because of anything that he did. In his world, nothing is ever his fault.)

So is he really that good of an offensive coordinator? I don’t know. I’m not a statistician so I’m not sure what all of the numbers mean. One thing I do know, however: He’s great at icing his kickers. :doh:

[Oldfan]

Anne-- So is he really that good of an offensive coordinator? I don’t know. I’m not a statistician so I’m not sure what all of the numbers mean.

He's good, Anne. Troy Aikman was sincere when gave Norv a lot of credit for his HOF selection.

The measure is -- how well did he do with the available talent? The raw stats won't tell you that. The 49ers offense improved and Oakland's offense suffered when he moved on. The 49ers are staying with Norv's scheme this year. Dallas's offense suffered when he left them. The Redskins haven't had offenses ranked as high as 1999 in subsequent years and we didn't have a powerhouse of offensive talent that year.

[DB44]

The one stat that matters....his 49-59-1 record with us.

wow, to think we watched 59 losses... :(

...but he was such a nice guy.

[Vladimir L]

I loved how Turner ran out offenses but he couldnt manage a team.

[Leonard Washington]

i bet he could figure out how to use moss, portis, and cooley effectively.

[REDALERT]

I guess we all read that article about Norv on the Washington Post :laugh: .

And to think I was going to start a thread regarding if we made a mistake by letting Norv go. Thanks for reminding me exactly why Norv was let go here in D.C, because this article was like dejavue :doh: . I can remember vividly the examples that were given from that one pre-season game.

Welcome to "The Turner Zone" foreal.

But please stop, it's like a bad nightmare or something :laugh:


Thanks

[Califan007]

The Redskins haven't had offenses ranked as high as 1999 in subsequent years and we didn't have a powerhouse of offensive talent that year.
But does that negate the six previous years of middle-quality offenses he produced for the Skins?...Not to mention that one of those "lower ranked offenses in subsequent years" was while Norv himself was still coach.

Compare that with Gibbs' first time around:

1981: Pts 10; Yds 9
1982: Pts 12; Yds 6
1983: Pts 1; Yds 3
1984: Pts 3; Yds 12
1985: Pts 20; Yds 11
1986: Pts 9; Yds 6
1987: Pts 5; Yds 3
1988: Pts 10; Yds 6
1989: Pts 5; Yds 3
1990: Pts 4; Yds 4
1991: Pts 1; Yds 4
1992: Pts 14; Yds 14

Going on what Anne showed, that would mean 8 times in 12 years (66%) which the offense was ranked in the top 10 in both points and yards, as compared to Turner's record of 4 times in 16 years (25%). I would think Norv would need to have a record like Gibbs before gaining the reputation he has. I think I agree more with Anne's assessment, actually....Turner is great at developing individual players on offense more than he is at developing great offenses.

[ThomasTomasz]

And on another note... I think time will prove that San Diego, despite popular opinion 2-3 years ago, has the worst GM in professional football.

Cutting Drew Brees, firing Schotty, and hiring Turner... all within a short time. I'm beginning to think he's a Raiders fan or something.

Some, including myself, might question AJ Smith at times. But, there is no doubt that this guy knows personnel and knows how to get things done. He's turned the Chargers around, despite having well-documented feudw with Marty Schottenheimer and linebacker Donnie Edwards, whom he never gave a contract extension to.

Some question his methods and decisions. He let Drew Brees go, but really, why still keep him? Philip Rivers was ready to go. It wasn't worth the guarenteed money. Smith actually offered Brees an incentive-laden contract, but it was rebuffed.

Look at what he's done for the team, though. He worked the Eli Manning situation to his advantage, trading Manning for Rivers and for draft picks which turned into Nate Kaeding and Shawn Merriman. He found Antonio Gates on the trash heap. The projects he has drafted have come about nicely, and he's slowly worked on the offensive line.

I didn't agree with his firing of Schottenheimer, either, but I understand it. He went 14-2 and still didn't go far in the playoffs. It seems to be a recurring theme for Marty, a criticism upon his entire career as a coach and his legacy may very well look like this- "the best coach to never make it to the Super Bowl" and one who had a 5-13 record in the playoffs. It was definitely close for a change in San Diego, but I would have given another season. With an already contentious relationship with Schottenheimer, Smith cut him loose.

[Oldfan]

But does that negate the six previous years of middle-quality offenses he produced for the Skins?...Not to mention that one of those "lower ranked offenses in subsequent years" was while Norv himself was still coach.

Compare that with Gibbs' first time around:

1981: Pts 10; Yds 9
1982: Pts 12; Yds 6
1983: Pts 1; Yds 3
1984: Pts 3; Yds 12
1985: Pts 20; Yds 11
1986: Pts 9; Yds 6
1987: Pts 5; Yds 3
1988: Pts 10; Yds 6
1989: Pts 5; Yds 3
1990: Pts 4; Yds 4
1991: Pts 1; Yds 4
1992: Pts 14; Yds 14

Going on what Anne showed, that would mean 8 times in 12 years (66%) which the offense was ranked in the top 10 in both points and yards, as compared to Turner's record of 4 times in 16 years (25%). I would think Norv would need to have a record like Gibbs before gaining the reputation he has. I think I agree more with Anne's assessment, actually....Turner is great at developing individual players on offense more than he is at developing great offenses.

I don't follow your reasoning. How does comparing the rankings of Joe Gibbs in his glory years to Norv Turner's tenure with the Redskins prove squat? Lacking the same talent level, not even Joe Gibbs Now can come close to Joe Gibbs Then.

[Isifhan]

I explained my thinking. Where did I go wrong?

Jumping in late on this comment but....

I'll say upfront Norv is an offensive genius. Compare him to whoever you want and that fact holds up. What he's not is a good head coach.

It's been documented that Norv is very, very lax and non-confrontational in team meetings etc. Letting veteran players do what they want often to the detriment of the team. This generates carelessness that is evidenced by penaltys and mental errors that are the downfall, and hallmark, of a Norv coached team and eventually to a lack of respect for the coach.

There's so many other things that happen that require the attention of a head coach, not just the offense hell not even the offense, defense and special teams. It's about relating to players while enforcing the rules and doing what's best for the team. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, a lot of the times they don't. I think Norv is so unconfrontational and unwilling to be the "bad guy" that he just lets a lot of stuff go that otherwise would have been fixed either by a benching or hard coaching or what have you. And the result is carless poor play that lets other teams hang around and hang around until they eventually win.

[terpfan]

Cutting Drew Brees, firing Schotty, and hiring Turner... all within a short time. I'm beginning to think he's a Raiders fan or something.
You can point to these things... but he's done incredibly in the draft. Phillip Rivers has turned out to be a fine replacement for Brees, and that team is just littered with great young talent plucked out of the draft. Pretty much their entire O-Line and their front seven of their D are made up of draft picks from the last few years.

[Oldfan]

Originally Posted by zoony
And on another note... I think time will prove that San Diego, despite popular opinion 2-3 years ago, has the worst GM in professional football.


From the Chrgers website:

Smith has stockpiled a roster full of Pro Bowlers, including a team-record 11 in 2006. Eight of those Pro Bowlers are Chargers because of Smith's handiwork, including draftees Shawne Merriman, Nick Hardwick, Marcus McNeill and Nate Kaeding; undrafted free agents Antonio Gates and Kassim Osgood; veteran free agent Lorenzo Neal, and Philip Rivers, who was acquired in a blockbuster 2004 draft-day trade. In the trade, Smith selected quarterback Eli Manning with the first overall pick and traded him to the New York Giants for Rivers, draft picks used to select Merriman and Kaeding, and an additional fifth-round pick that Smith later traded to Tampa Bay to acquire tackle Roman Oben. Merriman (2006-07), Gates (2005-07) and Neal (2006-07) have all been to multiple Pro Bowls with the Chargers.

[rdsknfan]

God, that is all so sinisterly familiar.



Yes it is. I just thank goodness he is long gone from us. I always loved how in his 7 or so years here he was always "rebuilding". Seven years? :doh:


:helmet: :logo: :point2sky

[Oldfan]

Jumping in late on this comment but....

I'll say upfront Norv is an offensive genius. Compare him to whoever you want and that fact holds up. What he's not is a good head coach.

It's been documented that Norv is very, very lax and non-confrontational in team meetings etc. Letting veteran players do what they want often to the detriment of the team. This generates carelessness that is evidenced by penaltys and mental errors that are the downfall, and hallmark, of a Norv coached team and eventually to a lack of respect for the coach.

There's so many other things that happen that require the attention of a head coach, not just the offense hell not even the offense, defense and special teams. It's about relating to players while enforcing the rules and doing what's best for the team. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, a lot of the times they don't. I think Norv is so unconfrontational and unwilling to be the "bad guy" that he just lets a lot of stuff go that otherwise would have been fixed either by a benching or hard coaching or what have you. And the result is carless poor play that lets other teams hang around and hang around until they eventually win.

I have no idea what went on in the locker rooms, but I haven't heard or read of players disrespecting Norv Turner. That's new to me. I guess the other teams that hired him hadn't heard it either.

[Califan007]

I don't follow your reasoning. How does comparing the rankings of Joe Gibbs in his glory years to Norv Turner's tenure with the Redskins prove squat? Lacking the same talent level, not even Joe Gibbs Now can come close to Joe Gibbs Then.
I was illustrating what an offensive record worthy of the praise Norv gets SHOULD look like...by comparing his actual record to Gibbs. Not hard to follow at all. Norv isn't nearly the offensive genius everyone claims he is. Anne showed that, and I followed up on it. Again, simple.

[Califan007]

Jumping in late on this comment but....

I'll say upfront Norv is an offensive genius.
Based on what criteria?

What Norv is, is a genius at developing individual offensive players. You will find a number of individual players who developed nicely under his coaching. His total offensive record, however, is slightly above average.

[USS Redskins]

1999 he had a great team. Pity.

[Oldfan]

I was illustrating what an offensive record worthy of the praise Norv gets SHOULD look like...by comparing his actual record to Gibbs. Not hard to follow at all. Norv isn't nearly the offensive genius everyone claims he is. Anne showed that, and I followed up on it. Again, simple.

In other words, you set your standard for "worthy of praise" at the Gibbs One level and you figured that I should accept that as an counter-argument even though it doesn't take into account the talent level of the players.

I wouldn't call that "simple." "Simplistic" is the word I'd choose.

[Califan007]

In other words, you set your standard for "worthy of praise" at the Gibbs One level and you figured that I should accept that as an counter-argument even though it doesn't take into account the talent level of the players.

I wouldn't call that "simple." "Simplistic" is the word I'd choose.
Ok, how about this (since analysis doesn't seem to be your strong point):

This offensive "genius" has raked up exactly ONE top-10 offense in the 13 years since leaving the Cowboys and the services of the Triplets. One. That was obvious in both Anne's post and in mine...if you looked.

Shouldn't a man given the label of "offensive genius" be more productive than that? We've heard Gregg Williams called a defensive "genius", and sure enough, he's been able to field top 10 defenses everywhere he's been, regardless of the talent level.

Norv is slightly above average.

[Morneblade]

Ok, how about this (since analysis doesn't seem to be your strong point):

This offensive "genius" has raked up exactly ONE top-10 offense in the 13 years since leaving the Cowboys and the services of the Triplets. One. That was obvious in both Anne's post and in mine...if you looked.

Shouldn't a man given the label of "offensive genius" be more productive than that? We've heard Gregg Williams called a defensive "genius", and sure enough, he's been able to field top 10 defenses everywhere he's been, regardless of the talent level.

Norv is slightly above average.

I feel for ya Cal, you're gonna spend too much time on this and it's gonna get you nowhere.

[Oldfan]

Ok, how about this (since analysis doesn't seem to be your strong point):

This offensive "genius" has raked up exactly ONE top-10 offense in the 13 years since leaving the Cowboys and the services of the Triplets. One. That was obvious in both Anne's post and in mine...if you looked.

Shouldn't a man given the label of "offensive genius" be more productive than that? We've heard Gregg Williams called a defensive "genius", and sure enough, he's been able to field top 10 defenses everywhere he's been, regardless of the talent level.

Norv is slightly above average.

"Genius" wasn't a word that I used. I think Norv has been among the top offensive minds in the game since he's been in the league. It's obvious that pro teams think so too. That's why he hasn't had a problem staying employed.

In order to measure something with stats, it must first be isolated. That's a math concept that's taught in the eigth grade. Your stats are of little value since those rankings measure talent level and coaching ability in combination.

[Califan007]

I feel for ya Cal, you're gonna spend too much time on this and it's gonna get you nowhere.
:laugh: Nah, I'll stop...I've been in a pissed-off mood all week and I get more analytical and debate every freakin' thing under the sun when I am lol...

[Isifhan]

I have no idea what went on in the locker rooms, but I haven't heard or read of players disrespecting Norv Turner. That's new to me. I guess the other teams that hired him hadn't heard it either.

It came out several times when he was with the Raiders. I would have to do some digging but it's there.





Posted: June 18, 2006

SN correspondents


Raiders coach Art Shell is cognizant of the disrespect some players showed his predecessors, Norv Turner and Bill Callahan. Shell has made it clear such behavior won't be tolerated on his watch. To prove it, he called out a few players and told them they won't be around if they undermine his authority or threaten team unity. . . .

[Oldfan]

I feel for ya Cal, you're gonna spend too much time on this and it's gonna get you nowhere.

I hope Cal isn't another one of those simpletons who believes that "dee-fense wins championships."

[Califan007]

"Genius" wasn't a word that I used. I think Norv has been among the top offensive minds in the game since he's been in the league. It's obvious that pro teams think so too. That's why he hasn't had a problem staying employed.
Didn't say you said that, but the term "genius" HAS been used in connection with Norv for awhile now, even on this very thread...and in reality I don't think he's even a "great" o-coordinator. I think Saunders is a great offensive mind bordering on genius (if he pulls it off this year he will be lol)...I think Norv is an above-average (slightly) o-coordinator who has lived off his rep from his Dallas days, and from being such a "nice guy" (in comparison, Snyder would NEVER get 13 years of slack).

As for staying employed, he's on his third coaching stint, even though his coaching record is ludicrously mediocre...so it's pretty obvious that in the NFL, both players and coaches will continue to be brought back due more to name recognition and familiarity than due to actual production.




In order to measure something with stats, it must first be isolated. That's a math concept that's taught in the eigth grade. Your stats are of little value since those rankings measure talent level and coaching ability in combination.
Exactly:

Three years with three HOF players = 3 years with top 10 offenses.
13 years with players who are not HOF = 1 year with top 10 offense and 12 years with mediocre-to-above average offenses.

[Oldfan]

It came out several times when he was with the Raiders. I would have to do some digging but it's there.

Sorry I put you to that extra effort. I was thinking Redskins not Raiders locker room when I read your earlier comment. I didn't read of a problem when he was here or in Dallas.

It's entirely believable that Norv wasn't up to the task of dealing with the Raiders' bad boys.

[BigMike619]

Jumping in late on this comment but....

I'll say upfront Norv is an offensive genius. Compare him to whoever you want and that fact holds up. What he's not is a good head coach.

It's been documented that Norv is very, very lax and non-confrontational in team meetings etc. Letting veteran players do what they want often to the detriment of the team. This generates carelessness that is evidenced by penaltys and mental errors that are the downfall, and hallmark, of a Norv coached team and eventually to a lack of respect for the coach.

There's so many other things that happen that require the attention of a head coach, not just the offense hell not even the offense, defense and special teams. It's about relating to players while enforcing the rules and doing what's best for the team. Sometimes the two go hand in hand, a lot of the times they don't. I think Norv is so unconfrontational and unwilling to be the "bad guy" that he just lets a lot of stuff go that otherwise would have been fixed either by a benching or hard coaching or what have you. And the result is carless poor play that lets other teams hang around and hang around until they eventually win.

plus the fact that brees has hurt his shoulder seriously and was out anyways

[BigMike619]

I hope Cal isn't another one of those simpletons who believes that "dee-fense wins championships."

aah way to bring up old **** old man. you should get extra pudding tonight with dinner. you can even eat it in front of the TV and watch murder she wrote.:applause:

[Oldfan]

Califan007 -- Didn't say you said that, but the term "genius" HAS been used in connection with Norv for awhile now, even on this very thread...and in reality I don't think he's even a "great" o-coordinator. I think Saunders is a great offensive mind bordering on genius (if he pulls it off this year he will be lol)...I think Norv is an above-average (slightly) o-coordinator who has lived off his rep from his Dallas days, and from being such a "nice guy" (in comparison, Snyder would NEVER get 13 years of slack).

I'm willing to agree to disagree on Norv.

While it makes a lot of sense, I have some concerns about Al Saunders and his approach in today's game. It seems designed for a pocket passer with extraordinary talent, it takes a year to learn, and VOLUME is one of the strategic principles. With those requirements, I wonder if the planets will ever align to give us the kind of production Al's offense delivered in Kansas city.


As for staying employed, he's on his third coaching stint, even though his coaching record is ludicrously mediocre...so it's pretty obvious that in the NFL, both players and coaches will continue to be brought back due more to name recognition and familiarity than due to actual production.

I think that A.J. Smith, and other successful GMs around the league , are more capable of judging the performances of coaches, given the talent they had to work with, than the average fan who pulls stats from a website and doesn't know how to interpret them.

[SkinsFTW]

I think that A.J. Smith, and other successful GMs around the league , are more capable of judging the performances of coaches, given the talent they had to work with, than the average fan who pulls stats from a website and doesn't know how to interpret them.

Actually I'm curious as to what makes AJ Smith a successful GM in your eyes.

He took over the team after John Butler died in 2003. They already had LT, Brees, Gates, etc.

His big achievement has been trading Manning for what turned out to be Rivers and Merriman but the next year he let Brees become a FA and got nothing in return, and almost let the same happen with Gates the year before. One great move in the draft (who wouldn't take NY's offer) doesn't make the guy a genius. I think not keeping his coaching staff from last year together and then signing Norv more than makes up for it in fact.

Also, you doubt Saunders as our OC, who has coached on teams with top 10 offenses 6 of the past 8 seasons with the #1 offense 4 times, but you claim that Norv can get the job done as a Head Coach despite not having a top 10 offense this decade, only one since 1993, and him never being able to win as HC anywhere?

Still buying the "What we do works" line? :doh: :doh:

The problem with that is "what he does works" when you have the best OL, QB, RB and defense in the league. It doesn't work so well when you have to actually gameplan to win football games.

A worse Dallas Cowboys team still won 12+ games a year and another SB with Barry Switzer "coaching" them and their offense was no worse without Norv.

[Helmet959]

here's a word for the original poster

PRESEASON!

so the skins score 2 td's in the final minute of the first preseason and it means Gibbs has finally resurrected the franchise

but give norv a loss late in their first preseason game and it means he's already distilled a losing attitude in a winning franchise

give me an effing break

[CM916]

here's a word for the original poster

PRESEASON!

so the skins score 2 td's in the final minute of the first preseason and it means Gibbs has finally resurrected the franchise

but give norv a loss late in their first preseason game and it means he's already distilled a losing attitude in a winning franchise

give me an effing break

Did anyone say our win last week meant anything big? I thought it was more along the lines of "nice to get a win but we have a lot of work to do."

Norv's loss last week was equally meaningless but then again it displayed all the qualities of a vintage Norv coached team. The preseason may not mean much but it can highlight problems in a team and reveal some tidbits of the future. Maybe it was a fluke but in a few weeks times I think we will see that Norv is up to his old tricks.

[Om]

here's a word for the original poster

PRESEASON!

so the skins score 2 td's in the final minute of the first preseason and it means Gibbs has finally resurrected the franchise

but give norv a loss late in their first preseason game and it means he's already distilled a losing attitude in a winning franchise

give me an effing break
Sure, why not. Take a break out of petty cash.

Then maybe read the post again and see if you can maybe figure out why you just walked into an orange debate ranting about apples. Geez guy.

[Vladimir L]

I wouldnt mind seeing Norv in DC again being out OC.

[Vladimir L]

Actually I'm curious as to what makes AJ Smith a successful GM in your eyes.

He took over the team after John Butler died in 2003. They already had LT, Brees, Gates, etc.

His big achievement has been trading Manning for what turned out to be Rivers and Merriman but the next year he let Brees become a FA and got nothing in return, and almost let the same happen with Gates the year before. One great move in the draft (who wouldn't take NY's offer) doesn't make the guy a genius. I think not keeping his coaching staff from last year together and then signing Norv more than makes up for it in fact.

Also, you doubt Saunders as our OC, who has coached on teams with top 10 offenses 6 of the past 8 seasons with the #1 offense 4 times, but you claim that Norv can get the job done as a Head Coach despite not having a top 10 offense this decade, only one since 1993, and him never being able to win as HC anywhere?

Still buying the "What we do works" line? :doh: :doh:

The problem with that is "what he does works" when you have the best OL, QB, RB and defense in the league. It doesn't work so well when you have to actually gameplan to win football games.

A worse Dallas Cowboys team still won 12+ games a year and another SB with Barry Switzer "coaching" them and their offense was no worse without Norv.

Norv has had some talentless teams since 1993.

Redskins, Miami, San Fran, Oakland.

I mean non of those teams had a great QB, RB and only one talented WR Moss for one year but with no QB.

Hell the 1999 Redskins werent an offensive power house but did well enough to win. When Stephen Davis came around Norv started getting it together.

Miami did well too with almost no talent too.

Norv can take crappy talent and make them avg and good talent and make them great.

[Oldfan]

Actually I'm curious as to what makes AJ Smith a successful GM in your eyes.

His bio will answer your question. (http://www.chargers.com/team/front_office/aj-smith.htm?&modulePageId=7)


Also, you doubt Saunders as our OC, who has coached on teams with top 10 offenses 6 of the past 8 seasons with the #1 offense 4 times, but you claim that Norv can get the job done as a Head Coach despite not having a top 10 offense this decade, only one since 1993, and him never being able to win as HC anywhere?

As I explained to two previous posters, I am not impressed by team rankings as measurements of an OC's ability since they measure the combination of talent and coaching ability together producing a meaningless stat.

Test question: Who is the best math teacher?

Mrs. High's classes scored an 87 on the standardized tests.
Miss Lowe's classes scored an 81 on the same tests.

The correct answer is that you don't know which of the two is the better teacher because you don't have a measurement of the math aptitude of their respective classes. The better teacher is the one who gets the the most out of the hand dealt.

[zoony]

So Oldfan wants Norval back as our Head Coach and Ramsey back as our QB.


:laugh:


Anyone else think MSF and Oldfan are the same person... totally ****ing with us?

[SkinsFTW]

Test question: Who is the best math teacher?

Mrs. High's classes scored an 87 on the standardized tests.
Miss Lowe's classes scored an 81 on the same tests.

The correct answer is that you don't know which of the two is the better teacher because you don't have a measurement of the math aptitude of their respective classes. The better teacher is the one who gets the the most out of the hand dealt.

Your answer is wrong as far as the NFL is concerned.

There is no handicap, there is no mulligan, you win or you don't. Norv hasn't. His players "aptitude" might be important to you, but I doubt the Redskins, Chargers, and Raiders fans give 2 ****s.

Just win the game, don't tell me that "what we do works" (for Aikman, Smith, Irvin, Novacek, Newton, Stepnoski, Johnston, etc. but not for your own players whom you had a hand in selecting for almost a full decade)

Nice try on the quiz. Problem is, you don't seen to get what the NFL is all about. There is no division 1 for the big kids, and division 2 and 3 for the little guys and special olympians. :laugh:

[SkinsFTW]

His bio will answer your question. (http://www.chargers.com/team/front_office/aj-smith.htm?&modulePageId=7)



His bio is mostly taking credit for the team Butler and Schottenheimer had already put together there.

Like I said, he had a good draft but there hasn't been much success with them yet. We will see.

[Gart Monk]

Norv Turner

1st and 10 ... Reverse
2nd and 14... Play Action
3rd and 14... Draw
4th and 10 ... Punt

Remember his offense?

[Califan007]

here's a word for the original poster

PRESEASON!

so the skins score 2 td's in the final minute of the first preseason and it means Gibbs has finally resurrected the franchise

but give norv a loss late in their first preseason game and it means he's already distilled a losing attitude in a winning franchise

give me an effing break
You actually wrote this post thinking it had even the slightest relevance to this thread, didn't you...that's kind of sad.

[Morneblade]

I hope Cal isn't another one of those simpletons who believes that "dee-fense wins championships."

Im not sure which one it is. Either you're on something you shouldnt be, or you're not taking something you should be. Either way the place you live is not reality. Not that you would even understand.

[Om]

Not again, guys. Let it go.

[SkinsFTW]

Not again, guys. Let it go.

Sure, we will take it easy on him next time :laugh:

[Drex]

Another questionable decision made by Smith that many tend to forget is the decision not to trade backup RB Michael Turner for possibly a 1st or 2nd round pick. He signed the one year tender but will be an unrestricted free agent next season, meaning the Chargers will get nothing in return (besides perhaps a lower round comp pick) for a guy that rb-starved teams such as the Packers and Titans were practically drooling over.

Sure, Tomlinson could go down to an injury and Turner is there to replace him but to be honest, that offense is screwed regardless of who replaces him. Turner's value to that franchise is only for one more season anyway.

[Oldfan]

Nice try on the quiz. Problem is, you don't seen to get what the NFL is all about. There is no division 1 for the big kids, and division 2 and 3 for the little guys and special olympians.

What I gave you is simple logic, common sense, which is far more common among NFL GMs than it is among NFL fans. That's why Norv Turner has more respect in the league than he does among Redskin fans.

[Helmet959]

I apologize for the anger of my last post in this thread.

I just meant that it's silly to read too much into 2nd half collapses in the preseason when it's scrubs vs. scrubs like, for example how we lost the game to the Steelers.

My take on the S.D. vs. Seattle game is that it does not prove Norv has instilled a losing attitude in the Chargers. Simple as that.

[WilberMarshall]

Originally wrote this for the blog but opted against including it. Damn thing was long enough already. Figure this is a subject Skins fans who lived through the Norvous Years might get a kick out of tracking this year, though, given that our franchise and this decent but star-struck man will be tied together in the pages of NFL history forever.

At any rate, I'm planning to track our former boy all year, so please feel free to participate. If this turns into anything I'll probably move the series to Around the NFL in future weeks. And if it simply dies quietly on the vine right here, so be it. It would seem appropriate somehow.

*

The Turner Zone - Week 1

I know it’s preseason and all, but I couldn’t keep from tuning in as Norv Turner--the NFL’s answer to salt spilled on a black cat--took to the sidelines for this debut as head coach of the San Diego Chargers. Coming off a 14-2 season, playing at home before an adoring, expectant sellout crowd under a sparkling southern California sky, Norv wasted little time introducing his unique aura to Charger football.

On the game’s opening drive, San Diego grabbed a nice interception off Seattle QB Matt Hasselbeck, returning it deep into Seahawk territory and igniting the crowd…..only to have it nullified by an iffy holding call. The Seahawks then proceeded methodically down the field and scored.

On their first drive, the Chargers moved smartly from their own 24 to an apparent first down at the Seattle 31…..but got flagged for holding on the play that got them there, pushing them back to the 41. On the next play they were called for a false start. Then, they gave up a sack that put them in 3rd and 17. They got 16 of them back (on a sweet catch-and-run by my new favorite non-Redskin, 5’ 6” running back D. Sproles, in the SD mini-back tradition of Lionel “Little Train” James)…..but, predictably, got stuffed on 4th and 1.

Fast forward to the end of the game.

Leading by two with seven minutes to go, the Charger defense stopped Seattle at the Charger 23, and got huge a break when J. Brown’s 41-yard FT attempt went wide left. Except that San Diego was flagged for 12 men on the field…..and Brown calmly drove the mulligan down the center. Seattle takes the lead.

Getting the ball back with less than 2 minutes to go and now down by 8, San Diego puts together a decent two-minute drill, and moves smartly from their own 28 to the Seahawks 26. With 13 seconds left and time for at a couple shot into the end zone, on 3rd and two the QB lobs a duck down the deep middle, which is easily picked off at the Seattle 6. Game over.

San Diego runs 15 more offensive plays than Seattle, tops them in total yards and rushing yards, breaks even on passing yards, dominates time of possession, but gets penalized eight times to Seattle’s two, gets sacked five times to Seattle’s one…..and, in the end, loses.

Welcome to the Turner Zone, children of the sun.

Om,

Pure wickedness!!! http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/e025.gif

[throwback37]

w-w-well, what's important is the chargers are a team full of guys who are uh, uh, competin' at a high, high level in this league and uh, uh....

[Warhead36]

OMG that is like the perfect embodiment of a typical Norv game.

Thats whats so bad about Norv. He's not terrible. But he's painfully mediocre.

[Mark The Homer]

I dunno. Just reading that makes me want to brush my teeth. And spit.

[Om]

I apologize for the anger of my last post in this thread.

I just meant that it's silly to read too much into 2nd half collapses in the preseason when it's scrubs vs. scrubs like, for example how we lost the game to the Steelers.

My take on the S.D. vs. Seattle game is that it does not prove Norv has instilled a losing attitude in the Chargers. Simple as that.
Not sure you're catching the vibe of the thread, brother. I'm not making predictions or drawing conclusions based on one game. I'm simply planning to track in real time a phenomenon Redskins fans lived through--The Norvous Years--and know only too well. And the way that first appearance of the Norvous Chargrs went turned out be about as perfect an example of a "Norv game" imaginable. It simply had all the elements.

Hey, if Norv's team goes on to win the Super Bowl, power to him. He'll have beaten the gods that seem to love to see him squirm.

If on the other hand his team goes on to break Chargers fans hearts ... in some agonizing, soul-rending way that will live a lifetime ... just don't say you you didn't see it coming.

[OriginalWhizzinator]

Skimming through this thread reminded me of a funny anecdote from an old bill simmons (the sports guy) article. Sorry, its a little long... http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040126

In honor of Norv Turner getting hired by the Raiders today, I'm running an excerpt from a Vegas column that appeared on my old website (posted on May 7, 2001). In the column, I'm describing a Sunday breakfast at Mandalay Bay with three of my buddies -- including our friend Hopper, who played blackjack until the wee hours with Turner, who had been recently fired in Washington. It's one of my favorite stories ... and it's absolutely, 100-percent true.

Late Sunday morning ...

We're eating breakfast (Bish, Hopper, Mike and myself) as Hopper recounts his blackjack experience with Norv Turner -- or as he likes to call it, "My Brush With Non-Greatness":

"Norv was up about two grand," Hopper explains. "Suddenly he scaled down his bets from $100 to $25 and started playing conservatively, like he had taken a pill that turned him into a giant wuss. I couldn't believe it. He stayed on '16' against a (dealer's) face card three times in a 10-minute span. All three times, he screwed me, and I ended up with his crappy card. All three times, the dealer ended up crushing us. And Norv's just sitting there with this dumb smile on his face, counting his hundred-dollar chips. Meanwhile, I'm losing a hundred a hand.

"So after the third time it happened, I leaned back, looked at the ceiling and muttered, 'The coach ... is ... KILLING me ...' Just like that. The coach ... is ... KILLING me. Up until that point, he didn't know that I knew who he was. He stayed for two more hands and bolted. I drove him away."

The mental image of a failed football coach mangling a blackjack table and driving Hopper insane was just too good ... for the next 15 minutes, we couldn't stop talking about it. How could a man get hired to coach an NFL team when he can't even play blackjack? We were flabbergasted by this. For instance, would someone like Mike Shanahan ever stay on "16" when the dealer had a "10" showing? I mean, EVER? Of course not.

"Norv seemed like a nice enough guy," Hopper said, "but there wasn't anything 'coach-like' about him. Can you imagine someone like Parcells just sitting there and taking it while I bitched about him at a blackjack table, right in his face?"

"How many teams has Norv coached?" Mike asked.

"He was an assistant in Dallas and the head coach in Washington," I answered. "In both places, he lost respect of the players pretty quickly."

"I can see why," Hopper sneered.

We started talking about something else. About 10 minutes later, Hopper started shaking his head again. He couldn't stop thinking about Norv.

"If I owned an NFL team," Hopper said, "before I hired a coach, I'd take him to Vegas for a weekend and play blackjack with him. That would tell me everything I needed to know about the guy. Everything."

[SkinsHokieFan]

Skimming through this thread reminded me of a funny anecdote from an old bill simmons (the sports guy) article. Sorry, its a little long... http://proxy.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/040126

In honor of Norv Turner getting hired by the Raiders today, I'm running an excerpt from a Vegas column that appeared on my old website (posted on May 7, 2001). In the column, I'm describing a Sunday breakfast at Mandalay Bay with three of my buddies -- including our friend Hopper, who played blackjack until the wee hours with Turner, who had been recently fired in Washington. It's one of my favorite stories ... and it's absolutely, 100-percent true.

Late Sunday morning ...

We're eating breakfast (Bish, Hopper, Mike and myself) as Hopper recounts his blackjack experience with Norv Turner -- or as he likes to call it, "My Brush With Non-Greatness":

"Norv was up about two grand," Hopper explains. "Suddenly he scaled down his bets from $100 to $25 and started playing conservatively, like he had taken a pill that turned him into a giant wuss. I couldn't believe it. He stayed on '16' against a (dealer's) face card three times in a 10-minute span. All three times, he screwed me, and I ended up with his crappy card. All three times, the dealer ended up crushing us. And Norv's just sitting there with this dumb smile on his face, counting his hundred-dollar chips. Meanwhile, I'm losing a hundred a hand.

"So after the third time it happened, I leaned back, looked at the ceiling and muttered, 'The coach ... is ... KILLING me ...' Just like that. The coach ... is ... KILLING me. Up until that point, he didn't know that I knew who he was. He stayed for two more hands and bolted. I drove him away."

The mental image of a failed football coach mangling a blackjack table and driving Hopper insane was just too good ... for the next 15 minutes, we couldn't stop talking about it. How could a man get hired to coach an NFL team when he can't even play blackjack? We were flabbergasted by this. For instance, would someone like Mike Shanahan ever stay on "16" when the dealer had a "10" showing? I mean, EVER? Of course not.

"Norv seemed like a nice enough guy," Hopper said, "but there wasn't anything 'coach-like' about him. Can you imagine someone like Parcells just sitting there and taking it while I bitched about him at a blackjack table, right in his face?"

"How many teams has Norv coached?" Mike asked.

"He was an assistant in Dallas and the head coach in Washington," I answered. "In both places, he lost respect of the players pretty quickly."

"I can see why," Hopper sneered.

We started talking about something else. About 10 minutes later, Hopper started shaking his head again. He couldn't stop thinking about Norv.

"If I owned an NFL team," Hopper said, "before I hired a coach, I'd take him to Vegas for a weekend and play blackjack with him. That would tell me everything I needed to know about the guy. Everything."




:laugh:

My brush with "non greatness"

Wow that story is total Norv

[Helmet959]

fair enough :)

we're all skins fans here, but i think i did miss your point because i don't remember a "norvous" phenomenon, from what i remember our teams were not that good talent wise and coaching wise

i definitely suffered through the norv years, i remember them really well actually, but when i was younger i still thought it had more to do with our super bowl team finally aging beyond ability and terrible draft day choices, heath shuler etc that did not set us up to win in the future

as a head coach he's probably worked previously for the two worst owners in the NFL (the two worst, for entirely different reasons) and i would say the winning team he finally put together for the skins had absolutely nothing to do with snyder (assembled before danny bought the skins)

i wish him the best at san diego, and i think he will deliver a Super Bowl team within a couple years, feel free to quote me whether SD makes it to the Super Bowl or tanks at 5-11!

[WilberMarshall]

fair enough :)

we're all skins fans here, but i think i did miss your point because i don't remember a "norvous" phenomenon, from what i remember our teams were not that good talent wise and coaching wise

i definitely suffered through the norv years, i remember them really well actually, but when i was younger i still thought it had more to do with our super bowl team finally aging beyond ability and terrible draft day choices, heath shuler etc that did not set us up to win in the future

as a head coach he's probably worked previously for the two worst owners in the NFL (the two worst, for entirely different reasons) and i would say the winning team he finally put together for the skins had absolutely nothing to do with snyder (assembled before danny bought the skins)

i wish him the best at san diego, and i think he will deliver a Super Bowl team within a couple years, feel free to quote me whether SD makes it to the Super Bowl or tanks at 5-11!

There's a rumor out there that alcohol affects memory...

[Larry]

what would be the most classic norv game w/ the 'skins?

i vote for the 2000 game in arizona.

more than twice as many first downs.

over 400 yds of offense, allowed only 178.

no punts. that's right, the 'skins didn't punt once.

77 plays to 44 plays for the cards.

37:26 to 22:34 edge in T.O.P.

and we lost.

http://www.jt-sw.com/football/boxes/index.nsf/Games/2000-10-was-arz

i flew across the country to see that game. 4th row, 35 yard line behind the 'skins bench, 35 dollars. :doh:

Mine was on the road against the Lions. We held the longest winning streak of any team in professional sports against them.

First half: Steven Davis has (going from memory) 22 carries, 125 yards. (5.5 ypc.) Skins lead: 13-3

3rd Q: Our D gives up some long drives, but toughens up in the Red Zone. We give up 2 FGs. Norv forgets to run the ball. Davis has one carry, for 5 yards. Skins lead: 13-9

4th Q. Our D gives up some long drives, but toughens up in the Red Zone. We give up 3 FGs. Norv forgets to run the ball. Davis has two carries, for 10 yards. We lose, 16-18.

Back then, redskins.com had a thing where you could e-mail a question to Norv, and maybe he'd answer it on his TV show. My question was:

How do you lead by 10 points at the half, averaging 5.5 yards per carry, never turn the ball over, and lose to a team that didn't score a single touchdown?

[Om]

I was planning to wait until after game 4 and do a "quarterly update," but having now watched the Chargers open a shaky 1-1, make LT look like just another back through 2 1/2 games, and fall behind Green Bay by 10 (including a toes-curling-in-agony "tuck rule" reversal) on their way to a 1-2 start (don't think so? watch) ... I'm going to have to say it.

San Diego, I love you guys. I really do. Cool uniforms. Awesome babes. SoCal sunshine. Rockin' zoo. But your ridiculously talented football team? Stock up on Pepto and aspirin. You are now officially in The Turner Zone.

[LD0506]

After all the Norvitis we suffered it's kind of hard to cough up a lot of sympathy for the Bolts. He is the official NFL Kiss of Death- or at least the Kiss of Mediocrity.

[HEavyJumbo85]

Poor Charger fans...A.J. Smith brought this on himself.

[Om]

Green Bay 31
San Diego 21

Packers score 2 TD's in final 5 minutes.

Any questions?

[DaveMason]

That was HILARIOUS. Seriously. That was JUST like how the Redskins used to play!

I came to this site specifically to search for this thread...I'm glad somebody bumped it.

[knowledge316]

That was HILARIOUS. Seriously. That was JUST like how the Redskins used to play!


I was thinking the same thing watching the game. Typical bone headed mistakes by players in terms of penalties and untimely mistakes. It's a trademark for his teams. Not to mention his bewildered looks on the sidelines. Even if they make the playoffs, they will not be real contenders for a ring.

The hiring of Norv Turner will be the worst decision of any team this year!!!

[Seabee1973]

Norval would probably make an excellant College head coach.

[OriginalWhizzinator]

I was planning to wait until after game 4 and do a "quarterly update," but having now watched the Chargers open a shaky 1-1, make LT look like just another back through 2 1/2 games, and fall behind Green Bay by 10 (including a toes-curling-in-agony "tuck rule" reversal) on their way to a 1-2 start (don't think so? watch) ... I'm going to have to say it.

San Diego, I love you guys. I really do. Cool uniforms. Awesome babes. SoCal sunshine. Rockin' zoo. But your ridiculously talented football team? Stock up on Pepto and aspirin. You are now officially in The Turner Zone.

oh wow, ok....ive gotta admit it Om, the GB game was extremely eerie.:doh:

[Om]

QUARTERLY REPORT

It wasn’t supposed to happen this fast.

It was supposed to come down to a single, edge-of-your-seat “must” division game in December, after his Chargers had teased and tortured their fans for most of the season, sometimes looking crisp and professional and winning the way a team as talented as they are should, then, suddenly, looking as lifeless and inept as ... well ... as they did yesterday.

Instead ...

The 1-2 Kansas City Chiefs.

In San Diego.

A 16-6 halftime lead.

You turn away for a second, turn back, and ...

Kansas City 30
San Diego 16


Chiefs rally for 24 unanswered points to defeat Chargers (http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/recap?game_id=29254&displayPage=tab_recap&season=2007&week=REG4)

Associated Press

SAN DIEGO -- The sorry state of the San Diego Chargers can be summed up in one word: "MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!"

Tony Gonzalez had a record-tying day with the 62nd touchdown reception of his career as the Chiefs defeated the Chargers in San Diego. More ...

The Kansas City Chiefs capitalized on two Chargers turnovers with TDns in the second half to come from behind and beat the Bolts. More ...

The fans have had it just four games into Norv Turner's tenure as head coach, and Sunday's shocking 30-16 loss to the Kansas City Chiefs -- who rallied for 24 straight points and got huge plays from two rookies -- caused the Chargers fans to lose their Southern California cool.

After booing ineffective quarterback Philip Rivers for most of the second half, the fans amped up their anger.

When Rivers threw the last of four straight incompletions from the Kansas City 5-yard line with less than four minutes left, those who weren't streaming out of Qualcomm Stadium started chanting "MAR-TY! MAR-TY! MAR-TY!" in obvious reference to coach Marty Schottenheimer, who was fired in February due to his icy relationship with general manager A.J. Smith.

The Chargers have been unproductive and disorganized under Turner, looking nothing like the team that led the NFL last year with 492 points and 14 wins -- both franchise records -- before their playoff pratfall against New England. Turner's overall record in three NFL head coaching stints is 59-85-1.

"They pay their money," said a frustrated LaDainian Tomlinson, the reigning league MVP who doubled his season output by rushing for 132 yards and one score, only to see his Chargers lose their third straight game to fall to 1-3, one more loss than they had under Schottenheimer last regular season.

"They have a right to voice their opinion, just like everybody else," he said. "They showed their frustration with us, the way we've been playing. I can't say that I blame them..."

2006 Rankings (16 games; 14-2)

Offense ... 4
Defense ... 10

2007 Rankings (4 games; 1-3)

Offense ... 27
Defense ... 18

Norv, you’ve topped yourself.


*


Discovered a kindred spirit. This guy gets it and them some.

In fact, I am humbled.

http://thecoachiskillingme.wordpress.com/


http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv_herm.jpg

[Om]

And for those who might be wondering ...

http://www.firenorv.net/

The drums are beating in the SoCal hills.

[Mark The Homer]

Funny how the majority of this board predicted this more accurately than the media "experts"

[Potato Sack]

The day they hired Norv, I knew the Chargers were headed for the bottom of their division. Norv proves over and over and over again that he is NOT a head coach. The players don't respect him. Have you ever heard him during an interview? He is NOT well read. It's obvious. No one respects him.

Norv, I think you're a fantastic OC. Please stick to what you do best and quit trying to prove you can do something you CAN'T!! :doh:

[thomasroane]

Norv really is the Jeff George of the NFL. It amazes me how many organizations think the guy can get it done; if only he had a change of venue! It will never happen. I loathe the guy. Even though he's basically a nice guy. But I'll never forgive him for the one-sided record in the 90's vs the brokebackers.

[tone_dubbz]

One of my friends just started watching football like 2 years ago, and he conveniently chose to pick the Chargers as his team. Once they got Norv Turner, I laughed my @$$ off and told him that his franchise was going to be destroyed by bumb@$$ Norv.

And just for the record, I really really hate Norv. Ever since he said that BS about redskins fans should be happy that crackboy Irvin made in the HOF, because Darrel Green coould make it to the HOF since he hasn't covered him yet.

[Chump Bailey]

Marty never gets the credit he deserves and is always marginalized for whatever reason. The guy produces and is a good coach.

[Mark The Homer]

Marty never gets the credit he deserves and is always marginalized for whatever reason. The guy produces and is a good coach.
Marty hasn't produced anything except heartbreak. And isn't he the longest tenured coach at this point? I wouldn't want him.

[BAFGA]

There are some funny pictures on that FireNorv blog.

[Chump Bailey]

Marty hasn't produced anything except heartbreak.

By my count - In twenty-two seasons Marty has had a total of two under .500 He has a regular season career win percentage over .600. I think that is producing something. We know he struggles in the post season, but his record in the regular season is amongst the best in the business.


I wouldn't want him.

I bet the guy's on the Chargers would take him back in a cocaine heartbeat.

[Thanos]

Sadly he'll never be out of work in the NFL.

[Mark The Homer]

Okay, allow me to rephrase.

Marty is and expert at producing a lot of thrills followed by a lot of heartbreak.

[Om]

Okay, allow me to rephrase.

Marty is and expert at producing a lot of thrills followed by a lot of heartbreak.
Which puts him, basically, "a lot of thrills" ahead of the subject of this thread. :)

[bulldog]

OK. Let's assume that AJ Smith was correct in assessing that Marty did a good job of building up the Chargers, but lacked the intangibles to get the team over the hump.

Do you as the GM then decide to bring in a coach who has failed miserably to carry the kind of discipline necessary to win a Super Bowl? :)

The funniest Norv comment I remember in recent years was when the media asked Randy Moss in Oakland about the game plan and the coaching staff.............

and his response was 'Do we have a head coach? First I have heard of it'......... :laugh:

Now, Randy is hardly a solid NFL citizen, but it is symptomatic as to how weak your organization is when a player feels comfortable making these comments without any fear of retribution.

[tex]

Norv seemed like a nice guy and all but it's good he's in San Diego and not here.

[Mark The Homer]

Norv seemed like a nice guy and all but it's good he's in San Diego and not here.
Yeah... isn't there a cliche about nice guys... ?

[Chump Bailey]

Okay, allow me to rephrase.

Marty is and expert at producing a lot of thrills followed by a lot of heartbreak.


Rephrasing acceptable and I agree. :)

I like Marty's style is all...

[Mark The Homer]

Rephrasing acceptable and I agree. :)

I like Marty's style is all...
Thank-you. Back in 2001 when I was in the alt.. blah blah whatever redskins news group, my sig included "If you hit the target enough times, you'll eventually hit the bulls eye.", referring to the fact that Marty gets to the playoffs a lot. But I don't agree with that anymore. I don't think he'll ever hit the bulls eye.

[Heidenreich]

I remember reading this on ESPN.com on Friday, and yet I was STILL stupid enough to put San Diego in my three team teaser yesterday, SD -1 was a lock. I can't believe I forgot cardinal rule #1 of gambling, NEVER BET WITH NORV TURNER......

"The 2007 Chargers have clearly given away their "Super Bowl contender" status and become this year's test case for the time-proven phrase, "Coaching matters." Which reminds me ...

1. A few readers e-mailed me about this: When Norv Turner was coaching the Raiders in 2005, I created a Norv Turner Second-Half Collapse Checklist. Three games into Norv's tenure with the Chargers, we already have six of the nine categories checked.

• Guys arguing on the sidelines? (CHECK)
• Embarrassing losses at home? (NO)
• QB getting sacked and throwing the ball up for grabs? (CHECK)
• Just an ungodly amount of penalties? (NO)
• Steady stream of excuses? (CHECK)
• Players taking veiled shots at the coaching staff? (CHECK)
• General malaise and dissatisfaction within the fan base? (CHECK)
• Local columnists taking shots at him? (CHECK)
• Big coaching name looming in the background as a replacement? (NO)

(Basically, we're a penalty-filled upset loss to the Chiefs, followed by rumors of Bill Cowher taking over the Chargers, from the entire Norv Turner Second-Half Collapse Checklist getting filled before the baseball playoffs start. I think this is amazing.)"

[Chump Bailey]

I don't think he'll ever hit the bulls eye.


Definitely not looking like it Mark. I don't know what the Charger's were thinking though in Norv. I guess AJ simply wanted a 'yes' man.

[Loxley]

He is royally ******* it up for the Bolts isn't he!

[Bryan81]

If nothing else Norv turner is consistant. He can coach a team out of the playoffs quicker then anybody I know. And as always when talking about Norv..., "Nice guy though". :)

[quicksilver]

Does all this mean that Jerry Jones has more sense than we all hoped ?

[deejaydana]

maybe the Chargers recent fortunes will help cool off all the fairweather Chargers fans running around Orange County. These bandwagon fans didn't even exist 3-4 years ago and now they are all sporting Chargers gear. I hate "fans" like that man...

[Om]

At this point, I'm tapping my fingers waiting for Oldfan's explanation as to how this is all just some unfortunate misunderstanding. :)

[Flycoach]

Norv sucks, no other way to put it.

[TK]

Discovered a kindred spirit. This guy gets it and them some.

In fact, I am humbled.

http://thecoachiskillingme.wordpress.com/

He definately gets it. :)
The Many Sad Faces of Norv Turner (http://thecoachiskillingme.wordpress.com/2007/09/25/the-many-sad-faces-of-norv-turner/)

After the Chargers disappointing loss in Green Bay, many outlets (including this one) chose to use this picture of Norv Turner, which seemed to sum up things nicely:

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/capte1dded8c2cd84008b71c4793590dedd1chargers_packe rs_football_wimg112.jpg

(See Deadspin (http://deadspin.com/sports/the-mjd-smorgasbord/norv-baby-norv-302940.php), With Leather (http://www.withleather.com/post.phtml?pk=3938), & Chargers Gab (http://www.chargersgab.com/2007/09/23/tomlinson-struggles-again-as-san-diego-loses-to-green-bay-31-24/) for some examples)

The (sad) fact is, this is not the first time Norv has sported this particular look of despair on the sidelines:

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv_101298ap.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/i20022-1999dec5.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/turner091200.GIF

This is not to say that Norv doesn’t have some range when it comes to sad, perplexed, frustrated or distraught looks on the sidelines, however:

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/turner2.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/turner_norv1204.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norvie-723884.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/12-4-00turner_story.jpg

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv_raiders460.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/t1_turnermoss.jpg

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/0129_norvturner200.jpghttp://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/_1054948_turner300.jpg

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/56451730.jpg

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/ph2005111401228.jpg

And here is one that keeps me up at night:

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv_heath460.jpg

Norv & Heath: working together to haunt my dreams and waste my 20’s…


[Update: Not surprisingly, I’m not the first person to notice this theme. As noted in the comments, the blog Jerry’s Wheelhouse (http://wheelhouse.blogspot.com/2007/09/big-quiet-story-of-incompetence.html) did something similar on Monday, and also found an additional picture:]

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv3.jpg

[Additional Update: In an article on ESPN (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=kreidler_mark&id=3036099&lpos=spotlight&lid=tab1pos2) talking about how nice (read: bad) Norv is, they included this picture, which isn’t a sad face, but is funny nonetheless:]

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2007/0914/e_g_turner_195.jpg

[Henry]

Let's take a look at Norv's division records over the years, shall we?

Washington: 20-33-1 (Cardinals: 5-8, Giants: 6-7-1, Eagles: 5-9, Cowboys: 4-9)

Oakland: 1-11 (Chargers: 0-4, Chiefs: 0-4, Broncos: 1-3)

San Diego: 0-1 (Chiefs: 0-1)

Total Record Against Divisional Opponents: 21-45-1
Winning Records Against Division Opponents: 0

I'll be happy to update this as we move forward. :)

[Oldfan]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.

[Isifhan]

Norvus will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.

:laugh: He may have them peaking but they will be so far out of contention by then it won't matter.

[TankRizzo]

How many times have we seen this exact same expression on the cover of the Post? :laugh:


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071001/capt.9afa980104584507ab4c4958e63787b5.chiefs_charg ers_football_cadp109.jpg

[Chief skin]

The guy is a BORN LOSER PERIOD

[Horatio]

Chargers fans should be thankful that they are now choking in the regular season under Norv, rather than making it all the way to the playoffs to choke under Marty.

It's pretty bad when fans are chanting "MARTY!" like they were during the game yesterday. This team may actually mutiny!!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i really didnt even think norv could screw that team up.

boy was i way off. i also think losing their D and O coordinators are playing a major role. i thought theyd bring their O down a notch, but not to rock bottom status.

[Om]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.
Tell me something ... having Norv's NFL head coaching record in black and white before you, upon what do you base this solemn proclomation?

[Stophovr6]

I almost feel bad for the chargers. They are young. Maybe Norv will get fired soon and they can resume being good.

[Potato Sack]

How many times have we seen this exact same expression on the cover of the Post? :laugh:


http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20071001/capt.9afa980104584507ab4c4958e63787b5.chiefs_charg ers_football_cadp109.jpg


LOL, I was thinking the same exact thing. What a complete and utter LOSER!

[Califan007]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.
Tell ME something...when the Redskins are losing and looking lethargic in the first quarter, do YOU start moaning and bitching and proclaiming that the "team is done", that "Gibbs should be fired" and that "nothing has changed"?...

Don't make me go look up your posts lol... :cool:

[crank]

how does he keep getting head coaching jobs?

[TankRizzo]

LOL, I was thinking the same exact thing. What a complete and utter LOSER!

That was one of the most frustrating things about Norv-bot 2000. He showed no emotions. You don't know if he just won a game, lost to the worst team in the league or just got done a 9-5 job in a cubicle.

Someone should do a "Norv Turner never changes facial expressions" ytmnd :laugh:

[Califan007]

how does he keep getting head coaching jobs?
It's Brunell's fault...

[TankRizzo]

how does he keep getting head coaching jobs?


He and Michael Bay are high ranking freemasons, that's the only logical conclusion I can come to.

[FanboyOf91]

The face that launched a thousand "NOOOOOOOOO"s....

[Mark The Homer]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.

Tell me something. What color is the sky in your world?

[Henry]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.

When the Redskins are losing in the first quarter, we certainly don't assume we're going to win the game.

In fact, most around here would say something to the effect of 'here we go again.'

[ntotoro]

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.

After all, he has a history as a such a great motivator and all when the chips are down... :paranoid:

[zoony]

Tell me something. When the Redskins have a lead in the first quarter, do you guys do a victory dance and high five each other?

There are 12 games to play. The Chargers will win their division and Norv will have them peaking at playoff time. Book it.


Holy crap that is awesome :laugh: :laugh:


:notworthy :notworthy


.....

[bulldog]

the Chargers have taken a clear step back under Norv.

Marty like him or no, helps his teams develop a tough, hard-nosed identity based on running the football and playing defense.

Norv came in and with the change in coaches, San Diego is now trying to be more of a finesse club and it isn't taking.

Rivers is tentative throwing the ball now that greater responsibility has been thrust on his shoulders.

Remember, winning the AFC West (in a clear down year) is not good enough. If San Diego goes 9-7 and wins the AFC West has AJ Smith and Norv accomplished their goals? :)

I don't think so, not after letting a 14-2 coach go in the offseason.

The Chargers were supposed to be adding that missing ingredient to be competitive with the Colts and Patriots.

And right now San Diego is nowhere near those clubs.

[SkinsFanAnt]

I can't even believe the debacle that is unfolding. I thought, surely, even NORV could get this team to the playoffs because they are simply SOOO talented. Surely, NORV couldn't blow this one, even if he is a terrible head coach. Surley, NORV can't loose out to the Chiefs...they'll be 1-3 and it will be the catalyst to a great playoff run.

I'm in disbelief. I never ever thought a head coach could be THIS bad.

[Oldfan]

You think the fans overreact to adversity on this board? The Chargers board is off the charts right now.

In that sea of outrage, there is one calm, highly intelligent poster on that board explaining the hiring of Norv as a wise move on A. J. Smith's part for the same reasons I did earlier in this thread.

Here's the link. (http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=46048)

[ntotoro]

That one poster at the Chargers board would be an idiot, based on Norval's past and present.

[Neophyte]

Ok Om....I know you are likely busy but there is just too much material for you to work with on this column to let it go. Where is the next installment?

[zoony]

That one poster at the Chargers board would be an idiot, based on Norval's past and present.


Big time. How many teams does Norval have to ruin before people figure it out?

He might be good with the x's and o's... but the simple fact of the matter is that the players do not respect him. He is a doormat, and he allows players to walk all over him.

.....

[Henry]

You think the fans overreact to adversity on this board? The Chargers board is off the charts right now.

In that sea of outrage, there is one calm, highly intelligent poster on that board explaining the hiring of Norv as a wise move on A. J. Smith's part for the same reasons I did earlier in this thread.

Here's the link. (http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=46048)

I think 'Victim of Circumstance' should be carved into Norv's tombstone the way the term follows him around.

OF, I think all is right with the world again. I found a post of yours I completely disagree with. :)

[Oldfan]

OF, I think all is right with the world again. I found a post of yours I completely disagree with. :)

I feel a lot better now too.:laugh:

I notice, though, that you have not attempted to challenge the argument -- essentially that Norv was the best choice to return to San Diego and run the offense he installed given the circumstances A.J. Smith was faced with.

The Norv bashers on this thread just don't want to overtax their brains by thinking it through. The hiring made sense in San Diego, even if it wouldn't have elsewhere.

[Henry]

I feel a lot better now too.:laugh:

I notice, though, that you have not attempted to challenge the argument -- essentially that Norv was the best choice to return to San Diego and run the offense he installed given the circumstances A.J. Smith was faced with.

The Norv bashers on this thread just don't want to overtax their brains by thinking it through. The hiring made sense in San Diego, even if it wouldn't have elsewhere.

I've already been through that argument OF. When the Chargers hired Turner it was said that if Switzer could keep the Cowboys going, Norv could do so for the Chargers. Back then I said wrong, and I still say it. The last person in the world you should hire to coach a team of underachievers is Norv Turner. Schemes and whatnot are meaningless if the team doesn't show up, and Norv's teams throughout history do not show up. That the Chargers are playing lackluster, disorganized, uninspired football right now should come as no suprise to anyone. We've got 8+ years of his head coaching history to look at and see this constant in every team he's ever coached.

You can break down the X's and O's and personnel and rankings, but at the end of the day all you have to do is look at his record, especially against divisional opponents, the teams he knows best and that know him the best. In almost ten years, across three teams, Turner has a losing record against EVERY SINGLE divisional opponent he's ever faced ... including the hapless Cardinals. The Cardinals, who's record was 42-68 during Turner's seven-year stint with the Redskins, were 8-5 against him.

The Giants, who's record was 53-55-1 during that stretch were 7-6-1 against Turner.
The Eagles, who's record was 50-58-1 were 9-5 against Turner.
The Cowboys, who were 62-47 (.568) were 9-4 (.692) against Turner.

At some point it's not the rest of the world. Are we now suprised Turner lost to a mediocre divisional opponent at home? Is this REALLY unforseen? Is this a new thing for Turner teams?

I have to admit that even I didn't think it would be this bad this early. But I'm not suprised that it is. And I AM suprised that there's someone out there that still thinks giving him a third try was a good idea, for any reason.

[ntotoro]

14-2 has so far begat 1-3. Don't need to think too hard about that one.

Marty's Offense in San Diego did more than Norval's. Good thing no one else in that Division has exactly stood out.

[DieselPwr44]

In that sea of outrage, there is one calm, highly intelligent poster on that board explaining the hiring of Norv as a wise move on A. J. Smith's part for the same reasons I did earlier in this thread.



He's totally within his rights to be wrong.

If AJ Smith was interested in any kind of continuity, he'd have chosen either Phillips or Cameron as his next HC.

Instead, he dragged his feet until both were gone(along with any other viable options) and made his own mess.
AJ didn't pick Norv because he wanted him, Norv was all that was left to choose from. :2cents:

[Mark The Homer]

I AM suprised that there's someone out there that still thinks giving him a third try was a good idea, for any reason.
...which is precisely why he keeps getting rehired.

[Oldfan]

Henry --Schemes and whatnot are meaningless if the team doesn't show up, and Norv's teams throughout history do not show up.

His team's don't show up? His Redskins teams won 45% of their games, the same record as Gibbs 2.0 -- so you have to tell me how one determines whether a team shows up or not. I can't tell.

I don't look to psychology to explain why football games are won or lost. To me, it 98% coaching and personnel. I would not hire Norv as a head coach with the authority he had here in Washington, but the man can coach an offense. He's done it everywhere he's been.

The Chargers kept his system after he went to Oakland. San Francisco kept the system he installed after he left because it worked.

With the limited talent he had here in 1999, the job he did that year ranks with me as the best coaching performance I've witnessed as a Redskin fan. I rank it right there with the job Gregg Williams did with the defense in 2004. Truly remarkable.

A.J. Smith has guts and brains. I wish we had him.

[Isifhan]

His team's don't show up? His Redskins teams won 45% of their games, the same record a Gibbs 2.0 -- so you have to tell me how one determines whether a team shows up or not. I can't tell.

Many would argue that Gibbs 2.0 coached teams have also failed to show up. While the man may be able to coach an offense, he cannot lead a team. There is no excuse for him this time, he walked into a situation with a top five team from a talent and record perspective. If this team fails, like it is doing currently, it falls squarely on his shoulders. Every team he has coached he has lost the respect of the locker room one way or another, it's going to be the same in this situation if it isn't already.

[Oldfan]

Many would argue that Gibbs 2.0 coached teams have also failed to show up. While the man may be able to coach an offense, he cannot lead a team. There is no excuse for him this time, he walked into a situation with a top five team talent and record wise. If this team fails, like it is doing currently, it falls squarely on his shoulders. Every team he has coached he has lost the respect of the locker room one way or another, it's going to be the same in this situation if it isn't already.

As I said to Henry, for me it's 98% coaching and personnel. I don't buy into the motivational theories. I give Joe a C grade in roster building and a C minus in coaching. We haven't had a pro passing game in Gibbs 2.0 except for the fourth quarter of the final game last year.

When you have talented players, executing a smart game plan, you win. The right attitudes follow as an effect.

[Henry]

His team's don't show up? His Redskins teams won 45% of their games, the same record as Gibbs 2.0 -- so you have to tell me how one determines whether a team shows up or not. I can't tell.

After three years Norv had the same record as Gibbs II? I'm not sure that's exactly right.


I don't look to psychology to explain why football games are won or lost. To me, it 98% coaching and personnel. I would not hire Norv as a head coach with the authority he had here in Washington, but the man can coach an offense. He's done it everywhere he's been.

The Chargers kept his system after he went to Oakland. San Francisco kept the system he installed after he left because it worked.

When you are 14-2 and can't win a playoff game, you don't need a guy who's offense works. You need a guy who can win a playoff game. After 9 years Norv is 1-1 in the playoffs. That's beyond pathetic.


With the limited talent he had here in 1999, the job he did that year ranks with me as the best coaching performance I've witnessed as a Redskin fan. I rank it right there with the job Gregg Williams did with the defense in 2004. Truly remarkable.

I totally, completely, and in all other ways disagree with you. Wow. I can't believe someone with the intelligence I give you credit for could formulate an opinion like that. Honestly. I gotta say wow again.

Six years into a five year program, enjoying career years from five players on offense (Johnson, Davis, Westbrook, Connell and T. Johnson) with one of the healthiest teams in Redskin history, with an exceedingly easy schedule (we played 3 winning teams all season long) in a very weak conference and a very weak division, the Redskin won 10 games, went a pedestrian 5-3 in the division and beat one team with a winning record all season long, the 9-7 Dolphins in a meaningless Week 17 game with the starters pulled. Despite the amazingly easy schedule our defense was ranked 29th, a hallmark for a Norv Turner-coached team who's defenses had never risen into the top half of the league in the five years prior.

Basically, the planets aligned PERFECTLY for that team, and the best Turner could muster was 10-6 and a divisional loss in the playoffs. When teams like the Bears, Giants, Falcons, Chargers, Raiders, Panthers and Seahawks have that one magical, everything-goes-right type of season they go to the Superbowl. We get swept by the 8-8 Cowboys, lose to the 5-11 Eagles and bow out in the second round.

I'm shocked that you would give such credit to Turner for that year when you are ready to run Gibbs out of town on a rail after our 10-6 season in 2005, two years into his program, in which we played the second-toughest schedule in the league, went 5-1 against a much tougher division, ranked in the top third in both offense and defense, and won a playoff game for the first time in seven years.


A.J. Smith has guts and brains. I wish we had him.

He's got guts. Then again, so does Snyder.

[Henry]

When you have talented players, executing a smart game plan, you win. The right attitudes follow as an effect.

And yet the Chargers, with talented players and a smart game plan, are 1-3 overall and 0-1 in the division. Reality is not agreeing with your opinion here.

[Isifhan]

As I said to Henry, for me it's 98% coaching and personnel.

Ok, he obviously has the personnel. The players that led the team to a 14-2 record didn't magically forget how to play football and start to suck in the span of an offseason. The team is 1-3, since it's established they had the same personnel in key positions, you have to naturally conclude by your own logic that the failure is on the coaching.

[Oldfan]

When you are 14-2 and can't win a playoff game, you don't need a guy who's offense works. You need a guy who can win a playoff game.

Who would you suggest?


I totally, completely, and in all other ways disagree with you. Wow. I can't believe someone with the intelligence I give you credit for could formulate an opinion like that. Honestly. I gotta say wow again.

I can handle a two-wow disagreement. It's a logical argument, I dread. :D


Six years into a five year program, enjoying career years from five players on offense (Johnson, Davis, Westbrook, Connell and T. Johnson)...

Yes, let's just imagine going into battle again with warriors like Westbrook and Connell and an O line anchored by Shar Pourdanesh protecting Johnson's blind side. It excites me just thinking about the those talent-rich teams.:rolleyes:

They had career years? Of course. They were well-coached. Norv got the very best they had that year.

[Oldfan]

Ok, he obviously has the personnel. The players that led the team to a 14-2 record didn't magically forget how to play football and start to suck in the span of an offseason. The team is 1-3, since it's established they had the same personnel in key positions, you have to naturally conclude by your own logic that the failure is on the coaching.

Absolutely. Fault the coaching for being 1-3 when he should be 3-1. But, it's still to early to crow about pronouncing Norv Turner a failure at San Diego.

[Oldfan]

And yet the Chargers, with talented players and a smart game plan, are 1-3 overall and 0-1 in the division. Reality is not agreeing with your opinion here.

Okay, he's not off to a good start. He should be 3-1. Is that enough evidence to seal the deal for you?

[skeenzfan]

Chargers are only a game out of the division lead. No one is running away in that division and they can easily bounce back.

[chipwhich]

Absolutely. Fault the coaching for being 1-3 when he should be 3-1. But, it's still to early to crow about pronouncing Norv Turner a failure at San Diego.

But not to early to call him a failure at head coach in general... :D

[Oldfan]

But not to early to call him a failure at head coach in general... :D

:laugh:Norv's going to win it all this year. Super Bowl, Baby!

[Seabee1973]

Marty hasn't produced anything except heartbreak. And isn't he the longest tenured coach at this point? I wouldn't want him.


Id rather lose in the playoffs like Marty does 90 percent of teh time then not get to the playoffs liek we do 90 percent of teh time

[zoony]

Six years into a five year program, enjoying career years from five players on offense (Johnson, Davis, Westbrook, Connell and T. Johnson) with one of the healthiest teams in Redskin history, with an exceedingly easy schedule (we played 3 winning teams all season long) in a very weak conference and a very weak division, the Redskin won 10 games, went a pedestrian 5-3 in the division and beat one team with a winning record all season long, the 9-7 Dolphins in a meaningless Week 17 game with the starters pulled. Despite the amazingly easy schedule our defense was ranked 29th, a hallmark for a Norv Turner-coached team who's defenses had never risen into the top half of the league in the five years prior.

Basically, the planets aligned PERFECTLY for that team, and the best Turner could muster was 10-6 and a divisional loss in the playoffs. When teams like the Bears, Giants, Falcons, Chargers, Raiders, Panthers and Seahawks have that one magical, everything-goes-right type of season they go to the Superbowl. We get swept by the 8-8 Cowboys, lose to the 5-11 Eagles and bow out in the second round.

I'm shocked that you would give such credit to Turner for that year when you are ready to run Gibbs out of town on a rail after our 10-6 season in 2005, two years into his program, in which we played the second-toughest schedule in the league, went 5-1 against a much tougher division, ranked in the top third in both offense and defense, and won a playoff game for the first time in seven years.





Down goes Frazier! Down goes Frazier! :notworthy


Henry you are one of my favorite posters of all time

[Heidenreich]

Basically, the planets aligned PERFECTLY for that team, and the best Turner could muster was 10-6 and a divisional loss in the playoffs.

A loss in which we led 13-0 in the second half.......

[Oldfan]

Henry you are one of my favorite posters of all time

Don,t buy it, Henry. This is more hate for me than love for you. Zoony bears grudges.

[Seabee1973]

You think the fans overreact to adversity on this board? The Chargers board is off the charts right now.

In that sea of outrage, there is one calm, highly intelligent poster on that board explaining the hiring of Norv as a wise move on A. J. Smith's part for the same reasons I did earlier in this thread.

Here's the link. (http://forums.chargers.com/showthread.php?t=46048)


There is an old saying if their is not a better coach out there then it is better to keep your old coach wich is what the chargers should have done. They panicked AJ didnt want Marty to hire his brother who is a damn good D coordinater.

[chipwhich]

There is an old saying if their is not a better coach out there then it is better to keep your old coach wich is what the chargers should have done. They panicked AJ didnt want Marty to hire his brother who is a damn good D coordinater.

He was a HORRIBLE defensive coordinator here. Not a fan myself.

[Seabee1973]

With the limited talent he had here in 1999, the job he did that year ranks with me as the best coaching performance I've witnessed as a Redskin fan. I rank it right there with the job Gregg Williams did with the defense in 2004. Truly remarkable.

A.J. Smith has guts and brains. I wish we had him.



The 99 team was very talented heck it seems like every redskins team is talented they just cant get over the curse of Norv

[Oldfan]

There is an old saying if their is not a better coach out there then it is better to keep your old coach wich is what the chargers should have done. They panicked AJ didnt want Marty to hire his brother who is a damn good D coordinater.

I've never heard that old saying. I guess A.J. Smith hadn't either. He wanted Cotrell because Cotrell knew the defense. Continuity. It makes sense to me.

Marty's 2005 team underachieved at 9-7. He should have been fired then. The Giants went 11-5 that year with less talent.

[Henry]

Who would you suggest?

If I knew that I'd be a GM. :) Losing the ego and keeping Marty might have been a better idea though. Wade Phillips doing an clearly better job with lesser personnel (though I'm not a big fan of his either).


I can handle a two-wow disagreement. It's a logical argument, I dread. :D

Well, I didn't want to go there but you kind of forced my hand. :)


Yes, let's just imagine going into battle again with warriors like Westbrook and Connell and an O line anchored by Shar Pourdanesh protecting Johnson's blind side. It excites me just thinking about the those talent-rich teams.:rolleyes:

Actually, I believe Andy Heck was signed in the offseason to cover the blind side. And though he was old, he actually didn't suck.


They had career years? Of course. They were well-coached. Norv got the very best they had that year.

You can't coach players like Westbrook and Johnson and Johnson being healthy all year long during the same year. And if Turner could coach Albert Connell well, he'd have had more than one good year in his four years under Turner. I give Turner full marks for starting Stephen Davis over Skip Hicks, but that's about it.

[chipwhich]

How about suggesting Russ Grimm????

How about anyone but Norv old fan???

[Seabee1973]

He was a HORRIBLE defensive coordinator here. Not a fan myself.


After the offense started sustaining drives the defense improved to top 10 if i rember correctly

[HEavyJumbo85]

I've never heard that old saying. I guess A.J. Smith hadn't either. He wanted Cotrell because Cotrell knew the defense. Continuity. It makes sense to me.

Marty's 2005 team underachieved at 9-7. He should have been fired then. The Giants went 11-5 that year with less talent.


Ted Cottrell has been a disappointment everywhere he's been, and Norv has just been a failure. A.J. Smith acted way too late on this one and didn't have a chance to hire a legitimate candidate, and that's 100% his fault. When he finally decided to fire Marty it was too far down the line, he needed to swallow his pride and make this thing work for another year. Instead he's flat out wasted a year by hiring Norv and successfully set the Chargers franchise back at least 3 seasons. By doing what he did, he practically shut his own window of opportunity to win a championship. He may not have gotten there with Marty, but he could've gotten there with a legitimate coach. He messed up by waiting as long as he did, and instead of working through one more season and going from there, he may have lost his team's window of opportunity. Tomlinson can only play for so long, and Rivers is looking pretty average right now. Smith made a big big mistake on this one.

[zoony]

Don,t buy it, Henry. This is more hate for me than love for you. Zoony bears grudges.


Don't flatter yourself. :) I don't even know you, why would I hate you?

I think you're relatively harmless, and you're probably a nice guy in person. I enjoy reading your posts... it gives the board a good frame of reference for what the wrong position is. ;)


Oldfan likes Norv Turner.
Oldfan likes Patrick Ramsey.
Oldfan wants to implement the shotgun / single-wing college offense.
Oldfan wants to go for it on 4th down every time.


It's fairly amusing, actually. Not so much your positions... but your arrogance in constantly being wrong. It's quite impressive :)

[Taylor4Life]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/mtownraider/bk_turner.jpg


Norvo's next assignment.

[Henry]

Okay, he's not off to a good start. He should be 3-1. Is that enough evidence to seal the deal for you?

Well, that and the previous 9 years, which I outlined in an earlier post.

If the Chargers go on a 12-game tear and win the Superbowl or whatever I'll stand corrected. However, right now, today, the performance of the Chargers only serves to solidify the belief that Turner-coached teams are maddening under-achievers. Given Turner's past, and now his present, I really don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

[SonnyJ]

With the limited talent he had here in 1999, the job he did that year ranks with me as the best coaching performance I've witnessed as a Redskin fan. I rank it right there with the job Gregg Williams did with the defense in 2004. Truly remarkable.

Ah, yes, I often find myself waxing nostalgic about the Norv years. What often comes to mind is the phrase that personified the Norv era - snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

I'm stunned that anyone is mounting a defense of Norv with a straight face. The only thing that remotely makes sense is that you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. No one with any intelligence would try to mount a case for him being a capable head coach. In fact, his record as an OC isn't terribly distinguished.

[SkinsFTW]

Let's take a look at Norv's division records over the years, shall we?

Washington: 20-33-1 (Cardinals: 5-8, Giants: 6-7-1, Eagles: 5-9, Cowboys: 4-9)

Oakland: 1-11 (Chargers: 0-4, Chiefs: 0-4, Broncos: 1-3)

San Diego: 0-1 (Chiefs: 0-1)

Total Record Against Divisional Opponents: 21-45-1
Winning Records Against Division Opponents: 0

I'll be happy to update this as we move forward. :)

When the 1994-2000 Cardinals, Eagles, Giants, and even Cowboys from 1996-2000 own you then you may as well shoot yourself. Those were all bad teams.

[SkinsFTW]

http://thecoachiskillingme.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/norv_101298ap.jpg

Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory since 1994.

[Oldfan]

zoony --


Oldfan likes Norv Turner

As an offensive coordinator, absolutely. So, do his NFL peers, obviously (since he has been continuosly employed).


Oldfan likes Patrick Ramsey.

I liked him better than Brunell. Still do. I argued with you and others that even bringing Brunell here was a mistake. I was right about that. With the evidence on the table now (the team's record with Brunell as a starter), I would think that the overwhelming majority of Skins fans would now agree.


Oldfan wants to implement the shotgun / single-wing college offense.

The shotgun spread, Zoony, not the single-wing. Do you know the difference? The shotgun spread is the formation that Tom Brady has been in 66% of the time this season while completing 79 of his first 100 passes.

Coincidentally, I just found a study done by the stats gurus at Football Outsiders: Of the 27 teams that threw more than 10% of their passes from the shotgun, 22 had a higher DVOA as compared to passes under center (the Skins were one of them).


Oldfan wants to go for it on 4th down every time.

Not every time, but a lot more often than Joe Gibbs does it. Want to take a guess which coach goes for it on fourth down most often? Yep. Belichick's Agressiveness Index is 1.75 (1.00 is average). Our cautious approach is costing us one or two games a year.


It's fairly amusing, actually. Not so much your positions... but your arrogance in constantly being wrong. It's quite impressive :)

I'll give you this, zoony: you have stamina. Most people would just quit when they realize they are over-matched.:D

[Oldfan]

I'm stunned that anyone is mounting a defense of Norv with a straight face. The only thing that remotely makes sense is that you're just being a contrarian for the sake of it. No one with any intelligence would try to mount a case for him being a capable head coach. In fact, his record as an OC isn't terribly distinguished.

I'm not arguing that Norv is a capable head coach. I'm arguing that hiring him was the right decision in San Diego's unique case.

As an OC, he has done well with the talent he had at every stop in his career.

[Oldfan]

Well, that and the previous 9 years, which I outlined in an earlier post.

If the Chargers go on a 12-game tear and win the Superbowl or whatever I'll stand corrected. However, right now, today, the performance of the Chargers only serves to solidify the belief that Turner-coached teams are maddening under-achievers. Given Turner's past, and now his present, I really don't see how anyone could think otherwise.

The talent level on the Redskins teams of the Casserly era and the Oakland Raiders of recent years were well below the league average as you well know. Using his record in argument, as you have, is pointless.

I would not choose Norv to coach my football team, but in A.J. Smith's shoes, the decision made complete sense. [This assumes that Norv will not have the customary responsibilities of a head coach with regard to roster moves and hiring of assistants.]

[Oldfan]

Ted Cottrell has been a disappointment everywhere he's been, and Norv has just been a failure. A.J. Smith acted way too late on this one and didn't have a chance to hire a legitimate candidate, and that's 100% his fault. When he finally decided to fire Marty it was too far down the line, he needed to swallow his pride and make this thing work for another year. Instead he's flat out wasted a year by hiring Norv and successfully set the Chargers franchise back at least 3 seasons. By doing what he did, he practically shut his own window of opportunity to win a championship. He may not have gotten there with Marty, but he could've gotten there with a legitimate coach. He messed up by waiting as long as he did, and instead of working through one more season and going from there, he may have lost his team's window of opportunity. Tomlinson can only play for so long, and Rivers is looking pretty average right now. Smith made a big big mistake on this one.

I don't think anyone really knows what happened there at the end in San Diego. My impression was that Marty was still the head coach as far as the owner was concerned until he and the GM clashed over the choice of the defensive coordinator. Then, the owner finally had to choose between them -- and Marty lost.

My guess is that it took the organization by surprise when both of their assistants got HC jobs.

[SkinsFTW]

[This assumes that Norv will not have the customary responsibilities of a head coach with regard to roster moves and hiring of assistants.]

Or motivating his players as well. He'd be fine as long as all he did was call the offensive plays.

If motivation means nothing to you then explain the Eagles/Lions game, the Redskins/Giants game, or even the 2005 Giants 36-0 fiasco? How did Parcells turn the 1-15 Jets into a playoff team in 1 year? How come Norv loses no matter what team he coaches? The Chargers supposedly had the best talent in the NFL, no way they can lose, yet Norv found a way. :laugh: He always does. :laugh: Remember 7-1 in 1996? 6-2 in 2000? :doh:

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

Will L.T. numbers go down now that Nurv in charge? Remains to be seen.
77-262, 3 TDs, 3.4 ypc. before the KC game he was avg about 2.0 YPC. Yup, LT is getting Norvitis

[Seabee1973]

The talent level on the Redskins teams of the Casserly era and the Oakland Raiders of recent years were well below the league average as you well know. Using his record in argument, as you have, is pointless.

I would not choose Norv to coach my football team, but in A.J. Smith's shoes, the decision made complete sense. [This assumes that Norv will not have the customary responsibilities of a head coach with regard to roster moves and hiring of assistants.]


I dont think the Redskins from 96-99 lacked talent In my opinion they were one of the most talented teams out there. Even Darrell Green said the 96 team was better than any team he was on in the Gibbs era Talent wise

[Seabee1973]

I've never heard that old saying. I guess A.J. Smith hadn't either. He wanted Cotrell because Cotrell knew the defense. Continuity. It makes sense to me.

Marty's 2005 team underachieved at 9-7. He should have been fired then. The Giants went 11-5 that year with less talent.


It is the reason Brian Billick still has a head coaching job. The owner of the Ravens wanted to fire Billick after the 2005 season but looked at all teh possibilities including college ranks and concluded there was no one that was better qualified to coach the ravens at that point.

[OriginalWhizzinator]

Dang....Om is a prophet.

:allhail:

I honestly thought i'd be able to enjoy the norv experiment either way...even got a few free beers out of betting the pats/bolts game, just taking the chalk.

It sucks though, the bolt fans are just miserable....they want marty back, and i honestly agree with them. Afterall, at least there is some element of theater in waiting until the playoffs to choke it all away. This is just too painful, i legitimately feel bad banging on them after losses.

[Chief skin]

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n100/mtownraider/bk_turner.jpg


Norvo's next assignment.


he will screw that up to, 59 wins 85 losses 1 tie add up to a 41 winning percentage. The GM Smith should be fired on that alone, you hire a coach with a winning percentage of 41, it just flat out boggles the mind :2cents:

[Oldfan]

Or motivating his players as well. He'd be fine as long as all he did was call the offensive plays.

If motivation means nothing to you then explain the Eagles/Lions game, the Redskins/Giants game, or even the 2005 Giants 36-0 fiasco? How did Parcells turn the 1-15 Jets into a playoff team in 1 year? How come Norv loses no matter what team he coaches? The Chargers supposedly had the best talent in the NFL, no way they can lose, yet Norv found a way. :laugh: He always does. :laugh: Remember 7-1 in 1996? 6-2 in 2000? :doh:

The motivation factor is highly overrated.

I believe that success produces confidence, not the reverse. Likewise, winning produces "chemistry" and losing produces finger pointing.

I faulted Norv with being overly patient with mistakes. Dan Turk was bound to cost us a game eventually. I blame Norv for not pushing Casserly for a replacement snapper. So, sub-par talent is the reason that Turner has a losing record, but he did his part to contribute to the lack of talent here in Washington.

How did Parcells turn programs around? He knew how to win the close games by taking calculated gambles that often paid off. He'd be a strong Poker player.

[Henry]

The talent level on the Redskins teams of the Casserly era and the Oakland Raiders of recent years were well below the league average as you well know. Using his record in argument, as you have, is pointless.

Did you see my post showing his record against divisional opponents? The one where every single one fared better against the Redskins than it did against the rest of the league? For seven years?

Then it happened in Oakland for two years. And it's happening now.

Are you telling me that the 1990s Cardinals had better talent than the Redskins? :doh:


I would not choose Norv to coach my football team, but in A.J. Smith's shoes, the decision made complete sense. [This assumes that Norv will not have the customary responsibilities of a head coach with regard to roster moves and hiring of assistants.]

It makes no sense to give a coach with 9 years of failure under his belt a tenth year. None. However, given that Smith HAS given Norv this undeserved chance, at LEAST we should be able to recognize that, yes, with the Chargers at 1-3 and losing to the woeful Chiefs at home, this hiring was most likely a huge mistake.

[Om]

Dang....Om is a prophet.

I don't know about 'prophet,' but I do generally know a lemon when I see one.

Unlike our stolid friend Oldfan, who's still trying to convince anyone who'll listen to him that the fetid, fuzzy green thing rotting slowly away in the crisper is going to produce sweet lemonade if we'll just give it time. :)

[SkinsFTW]

The motivation factor is highly overrated.

I believe that success produces confidence, not the reverse. Likewise, winning produces "chemistry" and losing produces finger pointing.



The Chargers had all that, then Norv showed up.

[Mark The Homer]

Dang....Om is a prophet.

It sucks though, the bolt fans are just miserable....they want marty back, and i honestly agree with them. Afterall, at least there is some element of theater in waiting until the playoffs to choke it all away. This is just too painful, i legitimately feel bad banging on them after losses.I think half the people on this board are prophets when it comes to guessing the outcome of a Norv Turner coached team.

Yes, the Chargers fans want Marty, but only because Norv is so ... inept. I think that's the best word to describe Norv Turner. At least Marty can win a division game. At least he can dominate temporarily. But deep down inside, I"m sure the Chargers fans would like to wipe the slate clean and find somebody fresh.

Quick recap:

2002, Marty leaves Washington and heads west.

First four games: 4-0. Includes a win over the Super Bowl champion Patriots. Chargers fans are escastic. Jesus Christ has risen.

Second four games: 6-2. Lost a couple to mediocre teams. That's okay. Regroup.

Third four games: 8-4. Lost two more, again to mediocre teams. That's okay. They're 8-4. It's almost impossible to miss the playoffs. Time to tighten up and make a run.

Last four games. 8-8. Lost every one. No division title, no wildcard.

2004: 12-4, Marty takes the division, only to lose the wildcard at home.

2006: You know the story.

He broke a million hearts repeatedly, and the owner finally realized in winter 2007 that Marty will just do it again and again and again. He's made a career out of it. I think the fans know it too.

Okay, back to topic. :)

[Oldfan]

I don't know about 'prophet,' but I do generally know a lemon when I see one.

Unlike our stolid friend Oldfan, who's still trying to convince anyone who'll listen to him that the fetid, fuzzy green thing rotting slowly away in the crisper is going to produce sweet lemonade if we'll just give it time. :)

It sounds like you know your fruits and vegetables, but this is football.:silly:

[ntotoro]

The motivation factor is highly overrated.

I believe that success produces confidence, not the reverse. Likewise, winning produces "chemistry" and losing produces finger pointing.

14-2 is certainly what I call winning.

(Below sung to the "Maude" theme)

"Then came Norval... "

[ntotoro]

I think half the people on this board are prophets when it comes to guessing the outcome of a Norv Turner coached team.

Yeah. One doesn't exactly need to be Nostradamus to figure out that one... :laugh:

[Om]

It sounds like you know your fruits and vegetables, but this is football.:silly:
Sounds like you know your only real option at this point is trying to change the subject. :)

Oldfan defends Norv Turner:


http://www.tigersweat.com/images/anim15.jpg

"Remain calm! All is well!"

[zoony]

Sounds like you know your only real option at this point is trying to change the subject. :)

Oldfan defends Norv Turner:


http://www.tigersweat.com/images/anim15.jpg

"Remain calm! All is well!"


Or the cop on South Park... "Move along! Nothing to see here!"


.....

[BigRay]

How many want to bet that Marty is somewhere laughing at what's going on with the Chargers right this minute.

[Oldfan]

Did you see my post showing his record against divisional opponents? The one where every single one fared better against the Redskins than it did against the rest of the league? For seven years?

Then it happened in Oakland for two years. And it's happening now.

Are you telling me that the 1990s Cardinals had better talent than the Redskins?

Henry, many fans on this board have a low math aptitude, but from previous posts I know that you aren't one of them. So, I think you're offering this stat simply to be argumentative.

The divisional record is 20-33. That's 38% with most games in the NFL East, a relatively stronger division at the time, while the overall record is 42%. You don't need to compute the standard deviation to realize that the difference is not statistically significant on that sample size.


It makes no sense to give a coach with 9 years of failure under his belt a tenth year. None.

I, and the Charger fan I linked, gave you Smith's reasoning. As a bright GM, part of his talent lies in spotting talented players that others can't see because they're blinded by sub-par stats produced on losing teams. That works with coaches too. Would you have predicted Belichick's success after his record at Cleveland?



However, given that Smith HAS given Norv this undeserved chance, at LEAST we should be able to recognize that, yes, with the Chargers at 1-3 and losing to the woeful Chiefs at home, this hiring was most likely a huge mistake.

Maybe. But, the opera isn't over until the fat lady sings.

[zoony]

The divisional record is 20-33. That's 38% with most games in the NFL East, a relatively stronger division at the time, while the overall record is 42%. You don't need to compute the standard deviation to realize that the difference is not statistically significant on that sample size.
.



:laugh: :laugh:

So it was Turner's overall suckiness that makes his division suckiness irrelevant? :laugh:



:munchout: Pull up a chair folks, this is gettin' good.

[RalphZero]

I don't love Marty Schottenheimer.
However, no other coach has had success with the Cleveland Browns, KC Chiefs or the SD Chargers as much as Marty Schottenheimer has.

He just can't make it to a Superbowl.

It took the Eagles 4 consecutive NFC Championship games before they made it to a Superbowl.

[Oldfan]

Oldfan defends Norv Turner:

No -- Oldfan defends A.J. Smith's decision to hire Norv Turner.

You can't debate me intelligently if you don't understand the argument on the table.

[ntotoro]

So it was Turner's overall suckiness that makes his division suckiness irrelevant? :laugh:

Lost in all that was this gem:


The divisional record is 20-33. That's 38% with most games in the NFL East, a relatively stronger division at the time, while the overall record is 42%. You don't need to compute the standard deviation to realize that the difference is not statistically significant on that sample size.

The NFC East was utter garbage at that time, other than Dallas for a couple years, then they became garbage very quickly. We even had Arizona in the Division for most (if not all... can't remember) of that time.

There's no excuse for Norval's Division lameness.

[Oldfan]

:laugh: :laugh:

So it was Turner's overall suckiness that makes his division suckiness irrelevant? :laugh:



:munchout: Pull up a chair folks, this is gettin' good.


Not "irrelevant," zoony. "Irrelevant" is a concept relating to logic or reason. "Statistically insignifcant" is a totally different concept.

[Om]

No -- Oldfan defends A.J. Smith's decision to hire Norv Turner.

You can't debate me intelligently if you don't understand the argument on the table.
Please. The only lack of understanding around here is you not realizing that your "argument" was DOA back when this thread was first created.

The Turner hiring was bizarre then, and many of us said so. You thought it was smart and said so. We're now 1/4 of the way through Norv's first season, and not only has San Diego regressed, as many of us predicted, but have pretty much fallen OFF the table.

And yet here you are, still resolutely waving that tattered flag alone in a smoky battlefield, your army dead and in tatters around you, hoping, apparently, for some latter-day gridiron deus-ex-machina to bail you out.

The evidence that Norv Turner is an abysmal NFL head coach leading UP to this year was overwhelming. Only you (and, apparently, your hero AJ Smith) failed to see it. The evidence so far DURING this year is even more overwhelming. Norv's taken a young, hungry, confident team and turned it into a quivering, doubt-ridden mess in just four games. And only you (and, apparently, your hero AJ Smith, who I suspect is in shock at the moment) can't see it.

Or maybe you're just incapable of admitting it?

[Henry]

Henry, many fans on this board have a low math aptitude, but from previous posts I know that you aren't one of them. So, I think you're offering this stat simply to be argumentative.

No. You asked me for my rationale and I'm giving it to you. If you choose not to accept it, well, not much I can do for you.


The divisional record is 20-33. That's 38% with most games in the NFL East, a relatively stronger division at the time, while the overall record is 42%. You don't need to compute the standard deviation to realize that the difference is not statistically significant on that sample size.

Except that's incorrect. Norv's divisional record is 21-45-1. That's 31%, which is a significant difference. The 20-33-1 is his NFC East record with the Redskins.

But hey, I'm a reasonable guy. Let's ignore Norv's stint with Oakland. Let's pretend none of that was his fault at all and just look at his time in DC. His overall record in DC was 49-59-1. That's 45%, which, again, is significantly higher than his division winning percentage.

Or, you could say we were 20-33-1 against the NFC East and 29-26 against the rest of the league. Is THAT a significant deviation?

And it's not like the division was that good back then. Only one team, the Cowboys, had a winning record over that span, and they had an even better record against Turner's Redskins.

The Eagles went 50-58-1 over that span, and 9-5 against us.

The Cardinals went 42-67 over that span, and 8-5 against us.

See, there's no exceptions here. We sucked against every team that knew our tendencies. Every. Single. One.

And so did the Raiders. But we won't talk about them.

And now, the Chargers. A team with arguably the most talent in the NFL. A team with the best player in the NFL. A team with the best TE in the NFL. A team that won 14 games last year. This team just lost to the clearly inferior Chiefs. At home.

You don't see a pattern? At all?

How is that possible?


I, and the Charger fan I linked, gave you Smith's reasoning. As a bright GM, part of his talent lies in spotting talented players that others can't see because they're blinded by sub-par stats produced on losing teams. That works with coaches too. Would you have predicted Belichick's success after his record at Cleveland?

Belichek is the exception, not the rule. You don't use exceptions to prove rules. You don't like it when people use the Ravens to prove you shouldn't worry about the passing game or a QB to win in this league, so don't compare Norv to Belichek. Same thing.

Besides, Belichek, for all his ineptitude with the Browns, built a better team quicker than Turner did. His playoff team with the Browns was four years in, it was 1st in defense and 11th in offense. Turner, to this day, has never built a team that complete.


Maybe. But, the opera isn't over until the fat lady sings.

That's pretty much all you can say at this point. You never know.

I'll use that the next time you take a shot at Gibbs. :)

[zoony]

Or maybe you're just incapable of admitting it?



naaaah, that's not it

[SkinsFTW]

I can't believe that a Redskins fan is defending NORV!!!! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

The NFC East was a pretty weak division and Norv still got spanked. The Redskins went after players back then too. Didn't matter. :doh: :doh:

[zoony]

Not "irrelevant," zoony. "Irrelevant" is a concept relating to logic or reason. "Statistically insignifcant" is a totally different concept.



You are seriously, seriously, reaching. You have been so summarily proven wrong in this debate it's not even funny.

Scratch that... it's EXTREMELY funny. You've now resorted to sticking both fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, and shouting "I can't hear you" repeatedly.


If you were 1/10 as intelligent as you give yourself credit for you would have bowed out long ago. If you were 1/20 as intelligent as you think you are, you would have never taken the position to begin with.

Your stubborness far outweighs any intelligence you have by a mile. You made up in your mind long ago that A.J. Smith is the greatest mind in football. Therefore all A.J. Smith's decisions are perfect. That is your position. Because somehow you think your own reputation is at stake here. It's really not complicated for those of us who see you for what you are. :)

A.J. Smith could hire Rich Kotite and it would be a sharp move in your mind. You would point to Kotites' abysmal playoff record as "insignificant", because Kotite never made the playoffs :doh:

Your posts and your position are a complete trainwreck. But like I said earlier, it is extremely entertaining.

Watching you make distinctions between "insignificant" and "irrelevant", as well as "the DECISION TO HIRE Norv" versus "Norv as a coach" is just laughably absurd. Yet in your dellusional world, it's the rest of ES that "doesn't get it".

I wonder if you'll ever have that epiphany... the one that most of us had when we were in our early teens or even elemetary school... the epiphany that tells you that at some point, it's not everyone else. It's you. :)


.....

[Taylor 36]

Oh, the bitter dark ages. How I long for them not to exist in my memory!!!!

[Mark The Homer]

I have to say -- reading through this -- I'm not sure I've ever seen a debate so one-sided. Henry and Oldfan. Poor Oldfan -- I almost feel sorry for him.

He reminds me of Paul Newman in Cool Hand Luke. They were boxing in the prison yard, and Luke was getting knocked senseless. Luke was obviously outmatched. And he was staggering around in a daze, still swinging, mostly at air. It was obvious that Luke had lost, but he wouldn't fall down. And eventually everybody just sort of shook their heads and walked away. But Luke still stood there, defiant, bleeding, stumbling, swinging...

[Henry]

Of course, if Turner wins the superbowl this year I'm gonna look like a first class idiot. :)

[ntotoro]

Of course, if Turner wins the superbowl this year...

Chances of that happening: 0.000000000000000000001%

So there's still a chance... ;)

[Oldfan]

Om -- Please. The only lack of understanding around here is you not realizing that your "argument" was DOA back when this thread was first created.

Well, I can only say that you don't seem to understand the argument from what you've written. Here, let me simplify it for you:

A.J. Smith wanted Norv as his OC because his team had been running Norv's offense successfully. But league rules prohibited the lateral move from SF. So, offering the head coach title, without the typical head coach perks, made complete sense.

So, why on earth would A.J. Smith be concerned with Norv's record as a head coach since he's not going to have the same responsibilities as he had as a head coach at Washington and Oakland? Norv's an offensive coordinator with a head coach title.

They had seven new coaches at San Diego, but the players are operating the same schemes. They don't have to win out to win their division. I'm just saying you shouldn't start your victory lap just yet.

[Oldfan]

Of course, if Turner wins the superbowl this year I'm gonna look like a first class idiot. :)

Oh, I don't think it'll take that, Henry:laugh:

[Henry]

Well, I can only say that you don't seem to understand the argument from what you've written. Here, let me simplify it for you:

A.J. Smith wanted Norv as his OC because his team had been running Norv's offense successfully. But league rules prohibited the lateral move from SF. So, offering the head coach title, without the typical head coach perks, made complete sense.

I guess Gibbs is a genius for promoting Williams to Assistant Head Coach when he hired him. :)


So, why on earth would A.J. Smith be concerned with Norv's record as a head coach since he's not going to have the same responsibilities as he had as a head coach at Washington and Oakland? Norv's an offensive coordinator with a head coach title.

They had seven new coaches at San Diego, but the players are operating the same schemes. They don't have to win out to win their division. I'm just saying you shouldn't start your victory lap just yet.

So ... not actually having a head coach is a good idea?

I wouldn't be suprised to see some sort of rebound. And given how weak the AFC West is this year I could see the Chargers going 10-6 or so and winning the division, and then losing in the playoffs. They are just too talented to finish 4-12 or something.

But for that team with that talent, that would be a mediocre season. And that's Norv: mediocre. And frankly, a finish like that would be terrible for San Diego, because it would probably save Norv his job, and the Chargers would then be doomed to such mediocrity for long, long time.

[Henry]

Oh, I don't think it'll take that, Henry:laugh:

You wound me. :)