Christianity's Image Problem

[China]

Christianity's Image Problem (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1667639,00.html?xid=rss-nation)

It used to be, says David Kinnaman, that Christianity was both big and beloved in the U.S. — even among its non-adherents. Back in 1996, a poll taken by Kinnaman's organization, the Barna Group, found that 83% of Americans identified themselves as Christians, and that fewer than 20% of non-Christians held an unfavorable view of Christianity. But, as Kinnaman puts it in his new book (co-authored with Gabe Lyons) UnChristian, "That was then."

Barna polls conducted between 2004 and this year, sampling 440 non-Christians (and a similar number of Christians) aged 16 to 29, found that 38% had a "bad impression" of present-day Christianity. "It's not a pretty picture" the authors write. Barna's clientele is made up primarily of evangelical groups.

Kinnaman says non-Christians' biggest complaints about the faith are not immediately theological: Jesus and the Bible get relatively good marks. Rather, he sees resentment as focused on perceived Christian attitudes. Nine out of ten outsiders found Christians too "anti-homosexual," and nearly as many perceived it as "hypocritical" and "judgmental." Seventy-five percent found it "too involved in politics."

Not only has the decline in non-Christians' regard for Christianity been severe, but Barna results also show a rapid increase in the number of people describing themselves as non-Christian. One reason may be that the study used a stricter definition of "Christian" that applied to only 73% of Americans. Still, Kinnaman claims that however defined, the number of non-Christians is growing with each succeeding generation: His study found that 23% of Americans over 61 were non-Christians; 27% among people ages 42-60; and 40% among 16-29 year olds. Younger Christians, he concludes, are therefore likely to live in an environment where two out of every five of their peers is not a Christian.

Churchgoers of the same age share several of the non-Christians' complaints about Christianity. For instance, 80% of the Christians polled picked "anti-homosexual" as a negative adjective describing Christianity today. And the view of 85% of non-Christians aged 16-29 that present day Christianity is "hypocritical — saying one thing doing another," was, in fact, shared by 52% of Christians of the same age. Fifty percent found their own faith "too involved in politics." Forty-four percent found it "confusing."

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[Corcaigh]

In the past decade the loudest Christian voices have been those evangelicals actively engaged in politics. Their message is uncompromizing and polarizing. Combined with the corruption and sex scandals of prominent evangelicals, and their strategy of aligning with one political party, its perhaps not surprising that the American mainstream would associate a negative view of these self-appointed spokesmen with the whole faith.

[SUNSTONE]

As a Christian I am not pleased with how I live, and I fall as one of the ones that doesn't reflect Christ the way He should be.

I have been and still continue to try and change this by getting with a team.
But the churches in america really don't have the best practical plan to get things done the right way.
They do some good things, but church should be a lot better when it comes to organizing christian teams to get over life's problems.

[No_Pressure]

I know a lot of Christians that are complete hypocrites. One of my friend's parents are church pastors and he goes along with all the church stuff and preaches the word of Jesus to everyone he looks down upon. Then he goes out to a bar, gets drunk off his ass, gets into a fight, and takes home some drunk girl to have sex with.

This is just one example of Christians gone wrong, there are plenty of good ones out there that practice what they preach, it's just most of the ones I have run into are not like that and I am weary of religion in general to say the least.

[Zguy28]

China, you should add a poll asking who is Christian and who is not.

[Zguy28]

I know a lot of Christians that are complete hypocrites. One of my friend's parents are church pastors and he goes along with all the church stuff and preaches the word of Jesus to everyone he looks down upon. Then he goes out to a bar, gets drunk off his ass, gets into a fight, and takes home some drunk girl to have sex with.

This is just one example of Christians gone wrong, there are plenty of good ones out there that practice what they preach, it's just most of the ones I have run into are not like that and I am weary of religion in general to say the least.Do me a favor, ask him which master he's serving: sin or the the Lord.

Tell me what his answer is.

[Corcaigh]

I know a lot of Christians that are complete hypocrites. One of my friend's parents are church pastors and he goes along with all the church stuff and preaches the word of Jesus to everyone he looks down upon. Then he goes out to a bar, gets drunk off his ass, gets into a fight, and takes home some drunk girl to have sex with.

This is just one example of Christians gone wrong, there are plenty of good ones out there that practice what they preach, it's just most of the ones I have run into are not like that and I am weary of religion in general to say the least.

That has always been true ... there are liars and hypocrites everywhere. I think the recent difference is that the evangelicals have been more vocal and brought to the fore a presentation of Christianity that is unpleasant to many.

[The_cavalierman]

When Christianity chose to take a prominent role in politics they became fair game for both criticism and skepticism.

[DeanCollins]

Christianity's Image Problem (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1667639,00.html?xid=rss-nation)



Barna polls conducted between 2004 and this year, sampling 440 non-Christians (and a similar number of Christians) aged 16 to 29, found that 38% had a "bad impression" of present-day Christianity. "It's not a pretty picture" the authors write. Barna's clientele is made up primarily of evangelical groups.

and nearly as many perceived it as "hypocritical" and "judgmental." Seventy-five percent found it "too involved in politics."

Not only has the decline in non-Christians' regard for Christianity been severe, but Barna results also show a rapid increase in the number of people describing themselves as non-Christian.

Churchgoers of the same age share several of the non-Christians' complaints about Christianity. And the view of 85% of non-Christians aged 16-29 that present day Christianity is "hypocritical — saying one thing doing another," was, in fact, shared by 52% of Christians of the same age. Fifty percent found their own faith "too involved in politics." Forty-four percent found it "confusing."



Good! maybe "The Church" will take notice that their recruiting methods are turning people away, as many of us "Other Christians" have been telling them. Going around telling everyone, that "I'm going to heaven and your not because you don't say it just right, and btw join our club or else..." isn't working real well. :doh::doh:

[SkinsFanAnt]

Christian or not, all men are hypocrites because all men are sinful. This is the teaching of Christ.
Churchgoers doesn't necessarily equate to 'Christian'.
Just as the Bible warns, there are many wolves in sheep's clothing. The way to discern false teachers and false Christians are also mentioned in the Bible.

Polls such as these are probably the most misleading manner of study that can be done on Christianity because the Kingdom of God is much more than Christians with personal failures, self-proclaimed Christians, and irrelevant measures. It also doesn't take into account how or when a person comes to be saved by the realization and acceptance of Jesus Christ and the baptism of the Holy Spirit...this is what makes a Christian a Christian... not failures...not a number of righteous acts...and certainly not going to church.
Salvation from death and the Kingdom of God can only found in one person, and that is the person of Jesus Christ.

[Zguy28]

That has always been true ... there are liars and hypocrites everywhere. I think the recent difference is that the evangelicals have been more vocal and brought to the fore a presentation of Christianity that is unpleasant to many.Indeed.


When Christianity chose to take a prominent role in politics they became fair game for both criticism and skepticism.Baptists are traditionally in favor of separation of church and state. Only in the 20th century have they become involved with the rest of evangelicals in politics. You are correct in your statement.

It doesn't help when guys like Haggard come along either. That made me almost want to :cry: It did tremendous damage to the Christian message.

[Mufumonk]

People are starting to wake up.

[DeanCollins]

Indeed.

Baptists are traditionally in favor of separation of church and state. Only in the 20th century have they become involved with the rest of evangelicals in politics. You are correct in your statement.

It doesn't help when guys like Haggard come along either. That made me almost want to :cry: It did tremendous damage to the Christian message.

Wake up man, the problem IS "THE Christian Message"

[AJ_Skins]

The real story is the rise of anti-Christian bigotry and persecution. Whereas some on the left may not have seen Christianity as a problem for them in the past, they now see it as an obstacle to their political power that must be destroyed.

[Zguy28]

Wake up man, the problem IS "THE Christian Message"Of course it is. Always has been since the First Century.

[Henry]

In 1996 I would have been one of the 80% of non-Christians with a favorable view of them. Today I'm one of the 62% that still holds a favorable view of Christians.

However, as a member of a very small religious minority in this country, I am very very sensitive to strength of religious harmony here, and I have noticed a more aggressive and adversarial attitude coming from ... Christianity (I don't know how else to put it) lately. Christians these days are telling me more and more how oppressed they are because they supposedly don't utterly dominate our culture as they once did and that I should be happy to simply be allowed to live here as a non-Christian and get out of their way. Don't get me wrong. I've heard stuff like that all my life :) but it seems to come up more and more often these days.

I have lived my entire life amongst Christians, and have always felt safe, secure and free. I like Christians. Heck, I married one. :) Lately though ... I don't know. I feel a rising discontent, and that's not something a member of a very small minority wants to feel about the very large majority.

[DeanCollins]

The real story is the rise of anti-Christian bigotry and persecution. Whereas some on the left may not have seen Christianity as a problem for them in the past, they now see it as an obstacle to their political power that must be destroyed.

more like a large group of misguided loons, that will vote for anyone that they're told to by THE Church. wait, that's the whole republican party :laugh:

[Predicto]

The real story is the rise of anti-Christian bigotry and persecution. Whereas some on the left may not have seen Christianity as a problem for them in the past, they now see it as an obstacle to their political power that must be destroyed.


Yeah, we 25% percent have GOT to stop persectuting you 75%. It is getting out of control.

[AJ_Skins]

more like a large group of misguided loons, that will vote for anyone that they're told to by THE Church. wait, that's the whole republican party :laugh:

Thank you for confirming my point.

[Destino]

Personally I think the churches (mostly protestant american churches) move towards what I call safe sinning has destroyed christianity's credibility and covered it in negativity. Though I have to say, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last. This is just the latest misstep.

Let's start with the basic rules, the ten commandments:

You shall have no other Gods but me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor/respect your father and mother.
You must not kill.
You must not commit adultery.
You must not steal.
You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
You must not be envious of your neighbour's stuff or wife.

How many of these does the modern christian movement in the US talk about? One could argue that MAYBE adultery comes up a lot... though it really doesn't. Sex does, but it's more about abortion, condems, and homosexuality then adultery. We don't hear a ton about adultery as a whole anymore.

This is what I call safe sinning. The churches spend a vast majority of their time talking about the sins they are in no danger of falling into. If you are prolife and able to take care of yoru children are you really in danger of abortion? No. If you are straight are you in danger of suddenly turning gay? No.

We spend all day chattering about the sins of others. Where is the talk of greed, dishonesty, pride, or wrath? Things that everyday americans are in danger of constantly in our society are ignored. The right wing church ignores the major points of the bible and hold a laser like focus on gays instead.

It's sad.

[AJ_Skins]

Yeah, we 25% percent have GOT to stop persectuting you 75%. It is getting out of control.

When the 25% dominate most of the major institutions of power in the country, you bet they have the power to act on their hatred.

[Corcaigh]

The real story is the rise of anti-Christian bigotry and persecution. Whereas some on the left may not have seen Christianity as a problem for them in the past, they now see it as an obstacle to their political power that must be destroyed.

Yeah, everyone sees Chrisitanity as an obstacle to their political power that must be destroyed :laugh:

Especially all the vast majority of the elected member of the Senate or House of Representatives who are Christian.

[Sarge]

Well,people can always convert to islam

[Corcaigh]

Yeah, we 25% percent have GOT to stop persectuting you 75%. It is getting out of control.

It used to be 100% in elected office, but one brave soul has 'come out'.

http://media.www.hlrecord.org/media/storage/paper609/news/2007/09/27/News/U.s-Rep.Pete.Stark.comes.Out.As.An.Atheist-3000553.shtml?reffeature=mostemailedtab

[Zguy28]

In 1996 I would have been one of the 80% of non-Christians with a favorable view of them. Today I'm one of the 62% that still holds a favorable view of Christians.

However, as a member of a very small religious minority in this country, I am very very sensitive to strength of religious harmony here, and I have noticed a more aggressive and adversarial attitude coming from ... Christianity (I don't know how else to put it) lately. Christians these days are telling me more and more how oppressed they are because they supposedly don't utterly dominate our culture as they once did and that I should be happy to simply be allowed to live here as a non-Christian and get out of their way. Don't get me wrong. I've heard stuff like that all my life :) but it seems to come up more and more often these days.

I have lived my entire life amongst Christians, and have always felt safe, secure and free. I like Christians. Heck, I married one. :) Lately though ... I don't know. I feel a rising discontent, and that's not something a member of a very small minority wants to feel about the very large majority.That's a good observation Henry. We did dominate the political landscape of this country at one time. Many Christians are what you might call "Dominionists". I was one once, and still have strong tendencies towards it, hence my support of FCC decency rules for media. As of late, I have become more libertarian in a lot of areas.

A lot of the problem are these "rapture-ready" evangelicals. I used to be one. I know. Christians should focus on loving God and loving their neighbor, even if they are gay or otherwise, while retaining their own integrity and authentic piety as an example. They shouldn't focus on themselves. :)

[DeanCollins]

Thank you for confirming my point.

So you don't think that the Religeous right is abhored by many independents as well? Why?

[Predicto]

When the 25% dominate most of the major institutions of power in the country, you bet they have the power to act on their hatred.


snicker

how did you lose the Ferrous Cranus custom title anyway?

[AJ_Skins]

Personally I think the churches (mostly protestant american churches) move towards what I call safe sinning has destroyed christianity's credibility and covered it in negativity. Though I have to say, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last. This is just the latest misstep.

Let's start with the basic rules, the ten commandments:

You shall have no other Gods but me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor/respect your father and mother.
You must not kill.
You must not commit adultery.
You must not steal.
You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
You must not be envious of your neighbour's stuff or wife.

How many of these does the modern christian movement in the US talk about? One could argue that MAYBE adultery comes up a lot... though it really doesn't. Sex does, but it's more about abortion, condems, and homosexuality then adultery. We don't hear a ton about adultery as a whole anymore.

This is what I call safe sinning. The churches spend a vast majority of their time talking about the sins they are in no danger of falling into. If you are prolife and able to take care of yoru children are you really in danger of abortion? No. If you are straight are you in danger of suddenly turning gay? No.

We spend all day chattering about the sins of others. Where is the talk of greed, dishonesty, pride, or wrath? Things that everyday americans are in danger of constantly in our society are ignored. The right wing church ignores the major points of the bible and hold a laser like focus on gays instead.

It's sad.

Are you talking about actual churches, or are you talking about politics? Because that's what most of the comments here are really about. It's politically active conservative Christans (and Jews by the way) who are the target here, and the reason why homsexuality has become a major issue is because of the left's relentless determination to mainstream it and place legal stamps of approval on it. Same with abortion. What has added to the conflict is the fact that the left has attempted to impose these policies on the nation through the courts rather than the democratic process. It's a really nice convenient trick they run--they're the ones who are obsessed with pushing these issues, and then they turn around and say "all Christians care about is (x)". Go ahead and let yourselves be sucked into it. I'm not interested in that game.

[Zguy28]

Personally I think the churches (mostly protestant american churches) move towards what I call safe sinning has destroyed christianity's credibility and covered it in negativity. Though I have to say, this isn't the first time and it won't be the last. This is just the latest misstep.

Let's start with the basic rules, the ten commandments:

You shall have no other Gods but me.
You shall not make for yourself any idol, nor bow down to it or worship it.
You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
You shall remember and keep the Sabbath day holy.
Honor/respect your father and mother.
You must not kill.
You must not commit adultery.
You must not steal.
You must not give false evidence against your neighbour.
You must not be envious of your neighbour's stuff or wife.

How many of these does the modern christian movement in the US talk about? One could argue that MAYBE adultery comes up a lot... though it really doesn't. Sex does, but it's more about abortion, condems, and homosexuality then adultery. We don't hear a ton about adultery as a whole anymore.

This is what I call safe sinning. The churches spend a vast majority of their time talking about the sins they are in no danger of falling into. If you are prolife and able to take care of yoru children are you really in danger of abortion? No. If you are straight are you in danger of suddenly turning gay? No.

We spend all day chattering about the sins of others. Where is the talk of greed, dishonesty, pride, or wrath? Things that everyday americans are in danger of constantly in our society are ignored. The right wing church ignores the major points of the bible and hold a laser like focus on gays instead.

It's sad.Good points Des. You are right with regards to many evangelicals.

[HOF44]

Good! maybe "The Church" will take notice that their recruiting methods are turning people away, as many of us "Other Christians" have been telling them. Going around telling everyone, that "I'm going to heaven and your not because you don't say it just right, and btw join our club or else..." isn't working real well. :doh::doh:

Dean for POPE!!!!! :cheers:

[DeanCollins]

A lot of the problem are these "rapture-ready" evangelicals. I used to be one. I know.

How does one become "rapture-ready"? and how and why did you get away from that?

[Henry]

Are you talking about actual churches, or are you talking about politics? Because that's what most of the comments here are really about. It's politically active conservative Christans (and Jews by the way) who are the target here, and the reason why homsexuality has become a major issue is because of the left's relentless determination to mainstream it and place legal stamps of approval on it. Same with abortion. What has added to the conflict is the fact that the left has attempted to impose these policies on the nation through the courts rather than the democratic process. It's a really nice convenient trick they run--they're the ones who are obsessed with pushing these issues, and then they turn around and say "all Christians care about is (x)". Go ahead and let yourselves be sucked into it. I'm not interested in that game.

Abortion wasn't legal in 1996?

[Zguy28]

How does one become "rapture-ready"? and how and why did you get away from that?The people who follow a form of theology called Dispensationalism. They believe that Christians will be raptured before the last few years of the end of the world when GOd pours out His wrath on the earth. Many have an escapist mentality which leads to arrogance many times.

One notable denomination is Calvary Chapel.

I got away from it, because I believe its poor theology and doesn't hold water when compared with Scripture.

[Corcaigh]

Abortion wasn't legal in 1996?

Let's not have facts confuse the discussion.

[Henry]

That's a good observation Henry. We did dominate the political landscape of this country at one time. Many Christians are what you might call "Dominionists". I was one once, and still have strong tendencies towards it, hence my support of FCC decency rules for media. As of late, I have become more libertarian in a lot of areas.

A lot of the problem are these "rapture-ready" evangelicals. I used to be one. I know. Christians should focus on loving God and loving their neighbor, even if they are gay or otherwise, while retaining their own integrity and authentic piety as an example. They shouldn't focus on themselves. :)

Thanks for the input. I tried very carefully to word my post so as not to attack anyone. Like I said, I don't have a problem with Christians at all. I don't think they have a problem with me either. My one concern is that they THINK I have a problem with them. AJ's posts are a perfect, perfect example. That line of thinking, quite frankly, scares the crap out of me.

[DeanCollins]

Are you talking about actual churches, or are you talking about politics? What has added to the conflict is the fact that the left has attempted to impose these policies on the nation through the courts rather than the democratic process.

like the way the religeous right has tried to force religeion into public school science classes :rolleyes:

[The_cavalierman]

Christianity always seemed to hover just above the fray but now that they are mired in mud slinging that is politics thanks to folks like Jerry Falwell etc.

Abortion
Same Sex Issues
Stem Cell Research
tele-tubbies (joke)

These issues not only divide the country but they divide churches because politicians take their message to the pulpits. Once the church developed a political agenda they opened themselves up for criticism and skepticism.

[Zguy28]

like the way the religeous right has tried to force religeion into public school science classes :rolleyes:Big mistake that many Christians don't understand.

[AJ_Skins]

Abortion wasn't legal in 1996?

The increased hostility has coincided with recent elections, and in particular the Bush presidency. More than anything else though, from the 90s on there has been a massive, all-out blitz on the part of the media and the academic world to mainstream homosexuality and cast it as a civil right equivalent with race. Christians cannot in good conscience say that homosexuality is OK, and that is why they've been targeted. It will probably only get worse, and we'll head full circle back to ancient Rome. Christians who are not prepared to deal with that kind of persecution will tend to fall away, which is what is reflected in the polling.

[Zguy28]

Christianity always seemed to hover just above the fray but now that they are mired in mud slinging that is politics.

Abortion
Same Sex Issues
Stem Cell Research

These issues not only divide the country but they divide churches because politicians take their message to the pulpits.So maybe those issues should've been left alone by their proponents huh? Then there would be no division. ;)

[Henry]

The increased hostility has coincided with recent elections, and in particular the Bush presidency.

The increase hostility from whom? Over what?

Abortion has been mainstream and legal since the 70s. If the winds of change are blowing on that issue it's not coming from non-Christians.

[The_cavalierman]

So maybe those issues should've been left alone by their proponents huh? Then there would be no division. ;)

I hear ya...but the moment you take a side on any political issue...prepare to be criticized for that stand.

[AJ_Skins]

The increase hostility from whom? Over what?

Abortion has been mainstream and legal since the 70s. If the winds of change are blowing on that issue it's not coming from non-Christians.

Read my edit.

[DeanCollins]

Big mistake that many Christians don't understand.

Here's a quote (tradition) from a spiritual fellowship, that would bode well for
THE Church. "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion". The members would do a lot better by allowing others to ask them say, "why are you so content most of time". Answer: "It might have something to do with my faith". This is what the saying "faith without works, is dead" really means. When it really works for you, others can't help but notice. Learn it, live it, love it, and share it when asked.

[aREDSKIN]

When Christianity chose to take a prominent role in politics they became fair game for both criticism and skepticism.

I have no problem with this as long as this standard is applied the same across the religious smorgasboard and non believers.

[prophet]

1. The first thing most people don't understand is that Christianity is Offensive. To expect anything less would be uncivilized. (from the boz)

Christianity is not a universalistic religion. It is not all encompassing, and is not all accepting.

2. Every Christian is no better than anyone else on this earth. We were the worst of the worst save of for the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. It is by him that we have our salvation, and are thus saved.

I go out of my way to meet, befriend, and to be kind to all people. And I want to be like Jesus who was called the Friend of sinners.

3. If you can get past the message of Christianity. The biggest hindrance to Christianity is people who use the name, but do not live the lifestyle. The worst thing on earth is someone who "THINKS" they are a Christian, but deny it in lifestyle. This goes for "super star" TV personalities to Joe blows on a message board claiming it. You have to live the lifestyle!

4. The next issue with Christianity is when "men" of "God" make rules that are not biblical, but want to act like they are. And whole generations begin to bring "greek" mind set into Christianity, and thus start to believe that it is biblical. Like the protestant stance on Alcohol, music, cigarettes, tattoos. ect ect..

5. While I have a major problem with political figures trying to take away my Christian beliefs (ie hate speech bill). I also do not believe in forced conversion of lifestyle, and views. But I do believe that I should fight for what I believe in. I have huge problems with both Republicans, Democrats, and I am almost at a point to where I will not vote because I have moral objections against both parties.
------------------WARNING OFFENSIVE BIBLICAL MESSAGE----------------------
We are all in the same boat - we were all born dirty rotten scoundrels. We know right from wrong, and everyone at one point choose to do wrong. Many of us over, and over. I am no better than a gay, an adulterer, a drunk, porn addict. ect ect... If you could see some of the thoughts in my head I've been worse than them all.

The Bible says "Jesus is the only way", and because of us choosing wrong, we are not just effecting ourselves, the people around us, but also God directly.

Those who choose to accept the pardon from God by receiving the propitiation of Jesus by following his ways are forgiven from the punishment of our wrong doing, because He took our punishment upon Himself.

There is a hell, and a good amount of people who do not accept the propitiation of Jesus will be there.

The Gospel in a Nutshell.

[Zguy28]

Here's a quote (tradition) from a spiritual fellowship, that would bode well for
THE Church. "Our public relations policy is based on attraction rather than promotion". The members would do a lot better by allowing others to ask them say, "why are you so content most of time". Answer: "It might have something to do with my faith". This is what the saying "faith without works, is dead" really means. When it really works for you, others can't help but notice. Learn it, live it, love it, and share it when asked.My church has a mission statement very similar "Living, Learning, Leading by Christ's perfect light.
http://www.leonardtownbaptist.org/

A Christians life should be light in the darkness, living the two greatest commandments to love God and neighbor.

Now, the problem with what you are saying about waiting for people to ask is, they don't ask! It doesn't matter how you live, they still don't ask. I view that as an excuse by folks in the church who don't want to talk about difficult or spiritual issues with non-Christians.
You can't deny it Dean, when you look at the original Christian church under Jesus and the Apostles, it was about two things: correct theology and evangelism.
Evangelism takes many forms, but let me tell you, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John et al were not shy, and didn't wait for people to notice them. They didn't take two years to get to know somebody before speaking to them about God. They went. They were the seekers, not the unbelievers. Jesus said that He had "come to seek and save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10) and gave this same mission to His church (Matt 28:18-20).

In light of that, should we be seeking or waiting?

[DeanCollins]

My church has a mission statement very similar "Living, Learning, Leading by Christ's perfect light.
http://www.leonardtownbaptist.org/

A Christians life should be light in the darkness, living the two greatest commandments to love God and neighbor.

Now, the problem with what you are saying about waiting for people to ask is, they don't ask! It doesn't matter how you live, they still don't ask. I view that as an excuse by folks in the church who don't want to talk about difficult or spiritual issues with non-Christians.
You can't deny it Dean, when you look at the original Christian church under Jesus and the Apostles, it was about two things: correct theology and evangelism.
Evangelism takes many forms, but let me tell you, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John et al were not shy, and didn't wait for people to notice them. They didn't take two years to get to know somebody before speaking to them about God. They went. They were the seekers, not the unbelievers. Jesus said that He had "come to seek and save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10) and gave this same mission to His church (Matt 28:18-20).

In light of that, should we be seeking or waiting?

People do ask, but no as often as you would like. Zguy, you do know your stuff and I agree with you about your description of what Jesus and the Apostles did, but It was a brand new deal then and that was couple thousand years ago. Most (if not all)of us have heard "the message" many times, and I'm glad you're excited about it, but being one of those "other Christians" all my life and hearing that "you're not doing it just right" and "you're doomed" is getting old if you know what I mean. From this side it is somewhat offensive and People, like AJ, are wondering why the "others" are getting defensive about it.

[The_cavalierman]

I have no problem with this as long as this standard is applied the same across the religious smorgasboard and non believers.

In this country believers out number non-believers by a scale of 98 to 2. I do not think you have to worry about fair representation for believers.

Non-believers tend to be the folks nuked for their stances on the issues and their requests for the enforcement of the separation of church and state.

[prophet]

In this country believers out number non-believers by a scale of 98 to 2. I do not think you have to worry about fair representation for believers.

Non-believers tend to be the folks nuked for their stances on the issues and their requests for the enforcement of the separation of church and state.
Whoa! Believers do not out number non-believers in this country.

Go to Barna the amount of believers that actually live the Christian life is quite low.

[The_cavalierman]

Whoa! Believers do not out number non-believers in this country.

Go to Barna the amount of believers that actually live the Christian life is quite low.

I find that very hard to believe....

[Zguy28]

People do ask, but no as often as you would like. Zguy, you do know your stuff and I agree with you about your description of what Jesus and the Apostles did, but It was a brand new deal then and that was couple thousand years ago. Most (if not all)of us have heard "the message" many times, and I'm glad you're excited about it, but being one of those "other Christians" all my life and hearing that "you're not doing it just right" and "you're doomed" is getting old if you know what I mean. From this side is offensive and People AJ are wondering why the "others" are getting defensive about it.When you say other Christians, what do you mean? Are you Catholic or Eastern Orthodox?

[Predicto]

Whoa! Believers do not out number non-believers in this country.

Go to Barna the amount of believers that actually live the Christian life is quite low.

I guess that depends on the definition of "Christian."

[codeorama]

China, you should add a poll asking who is Christian and who is not.

You need to determine everyone's definition of "christian" first...

Is is:

-someone that goes to church
-someone that believes in the teachings of Jesus
-someone that lives their live as they believe Jesus would want them to
-someone that has accepted that Jesus was the literal son of God and he died for their sins

[twa]

In the past decade the loudest Christian voices have been those evangelicals actively engaged in politics. Their message is uncompromizing and polarizing. Combined with the corruption and sex scandals of prominent evangelicals, and their strategy of aligning with one political party, its perhaps not surprising that the American mainstream would associate a negative view of these self-appointed spokesmen with the whole faith.

After reading the whole thread I believe you and Destino are the closest.

Politics is no place for the church because politics corrupts by it's very nature,and most have lost sight of the mission we are entrusted with, which is much more important than which party wins a election.

It appears to the public that they are nothing more than another PAC,or special interest group....and I can't blame them for that assumption.

I firmly believe in voting your convictions and fulfilling your responsibilities as a citizen, but politics have no place in a church.

[Zguy28]

You need to determine everyone's definition of "christian" first...

Is is:

-someone that goes to church
-someone that believes in the teachings of Jesus
-someone that lives their live as they believe Jesus would want them to
-someone that has accepted that Jesus was the literal son of God and he died for their sinsIf I had to pick, it would be the last one. It applies to Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestants.

[jpillian]

After reading the whole thread I believe you and Destino are the closest.

Politics is no place for the church because politics corrupts by it's very nature,and most have lost sight of the mission we are entrusted with, which is much more important than which party wins a election.

It appears to the public that they are nothing more than another PAC,or special interest group....and I can't blame them for that assumption.

I firmly believe in voting your convictions and fulfilling your responsibilities as a citizen, but politics have no place in a church.

Come, come now, twa -- didn't Christ come originally to restore an earthly kingdom? To restore His people to power and dominion? [/sarcasm]

You're absolutely, right -- the recent press for religion in politics has been far from positive development and has been a detriment to the fulfillment of the Great Commission. That is where the commitment to action needs to be in the Church at large: living a life the emulates Christ, and is therefore, in itself worth emulating.

[Destino]

Are you talking about actual churches, or are you talking about politics? Because that's what most of the comments here are really about. It's politically active conservative Christans (and Jews by the way) who are the target here, and the reason why homsexuality has become a major issue is because of the left's relentless determination to mainstream it and place legal stamps of approval on it. Same with abortion. What has added to the conflict is the fact that the left has attempted to impose these policies on the nation through the courts rather than the democratic process. It's a really nice convenient trick they run--they're the ones who are obsessed with pushing these issues, and then they turn around and say "all Christians care about is (x)". Go ahead and let yourselves be sucked into it. I'm not interested in that game.

Religion is being consumed by politics in the US. Have you not noticed the general attitude that only conservatives are "real Christians" or have you been living under a rock? The largest names in American Christianity are highly political figures.

Also I completely reject your cop out for why homosexuality and abortion are front and center. Examples of rising greed are all around us as salaries at the top of business go higher then anything American history has ever known while jobs at the bottom are shipped out.

Wrath and vengeance is a celebrated emotion these days. Everytime a news story comes out there is no shortage of people screaming for torture and death. These are sins and we are forgetting lessons about hatred and forgiveness. I'm even seeing christians begin to argue that forgiveness isn't needed of us.

The call to HELP the needy is being drowned out by the call to VOTE. This is disgusting and highly alarming. Churches should be directing people towards homeless shelters and old folks homes to a far greater degree then the polls. No party in the US is close to adopting a Christian view. Abortion or War? That's not a choice that's a tragedy.

Christians are openly fanning the flames of WAR. Some even openly discussing bring about the end of days! This is absolutely crazy! Everything the church is supposed to be is being tossed asside in favor of non-stop chatter about ****ing gays!

I'm not saying this as a leftist, I'm saying this as a Christian. We are told to do two things - love god and love our neighbors. We've replaced the second part with "love those that agree with us" and are working on assigning God to a political movement.

[The_cavalierman]

You need to determine everyone's definition of "christian" first...

Is is:

-someone that goes to church
-someone that believes in the teachings of Jesus
-someone that lives their live as they believe Jesus would want them to
-someone that has accepted that Jesus was the literal son of God and he died for their sins

FYI: Going to church has nothing to do with being a christian....

[Larry]

When the 25% dominate most of the major institutions of power in the country, you bet they have the power to act on their hatred.

Damn Jews, they're running everything.

- Mel Gibson.

[GibbsFactor]

Here's the biggest loophole in Christianity.

Get baptized.

Even if you don't believe in it, and you're wrong, you are forgiven.

[Larry]

And let's not forget all the positive PR Christianity gets from "Creation Science". Really helps the image, there.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

You want to know the problem that Christianity is having that's caused its image to decline....

The fact that we live in a "Now" society. We want things now. We want our rewards now. Oh, and we don't want to have to sacrifice anything to get those rewards.

Whereas Christianity is an "Eat the **** sandwich now to get your reward later" philosophy. That just doesn't play real well with a large segment of the population anymore. It's definitely part of why I am no longer a Christian.

[Corcaigh]

You want to know the problem that Christianity is having that's caused its image to decline....

The fact that we live in a "Now" society. We want things now. We want our rewards now. Oh, and we don't want to have to sacrifice anything to get those rewards.

Whereas Christianity is an "Eat the **** sandwich now to get your reward later" philosophy.

Not so. The mega-churches are selling the prosperity gospel; another reason many are alienated.

[prophet]

I guess that depends on the definition of "Christian."

The book of James defines it well.

[PeterMP]

Evangelism takes many forms, but let me tell you, Jesus, Paul, Peter, John et al were not shy, and didn't wait for people to notice them. They didn't take two years to get to know somebody before speaking to them about God. They went. They were the seekers, not the unbelievers. Jesus said that He had "come to seek and save that which is lost" (Luke 19:10) and gave this same mission to His church (Matt 28:18-20).

In light of that, should we be seeking or waiting?

When you live your life exactly like Jesus, Paul, Peter, or John this is a meaningful comparision.

[NoCalMike]

It seems in political world, if you are Pro-Life and Anti-Gay, you are a christian, if not you aren't a "real christian" or catholic or whatever.

I never understood why it seems that two sins seem to hold greater power, when the bible clearly states that a sin is a sin, and no one sin is greater then the other, yet it seems those on the right who profess their love to church and christ, are willing to basically look the other way when it comes to any other sin besides Gays and Abortion.

[D'Pablo]

Christianity's image problem most likely stems from a shift to conservatism that first became apparent in the mid-90s. Liberal politics in America, contrary to what most people here seem to believe, was born out of Christianity. Policies like the Great Society and New Deal were entrusted to carry out Christian ideals, particularly charity. You may not agree with the manner in which these programs were carried out, but chances are you agree with the intentions. Everyone felt the love of (not necessarily benefited from) these programs, Christian or non-Christian.

On the other hand, the popular, more stereotypical (and usually incorrect) view of conservatism has been the exact opposite... hold your money tight-fistedly and abide by the rules of social-darwinism. When attaching this view, right or wrong, to Christianity, I think it creates problems. We all know the issues associated with welfare, but doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical for a Christian to oppose it? Isn't there an inherent trust amongst Christians that allows them to believe that people will not abuse programs such as the aforementioned? I think that with the emergence of the jaded Christian, both believers and non-believers alike have grown disgusted.

[Coach Williams]

Here's the biggest loophole in Christianity.

Get baptized.

Even if you don't believe in it, and you're wrong, you are forgiven.


That among MANY other misunderstanding are common issues.....


While I am still a habitual sinner I consider myself a model for fellow Christians.....

[Zguy28]

Christianity's image problem most likely stems from a shift to conservatism that first became apparent in the mid-90s. Liberal politics in America, contrary to what most people here seem to believe, was born out of Christianity. Policies like the Great Society and New Deal were entrusted to carry out Christian ideals, particularly charity. You may not agree with the manner in which these programs were carried out, but chances are you agree with the intentions. Everyone felt the love of (not necessarily benefited from) these programs, Christian or non-Christian.

On the other hand, the popular, more stereotypical (and usually incorrect) view of conservatism has been the exact opposite... hold your money tight-fistedly and abide by the rules of social-darwinism. When attaching this view, right or wrong, to Christianity, I think it creates problems. We all know the issues associated with welfare, but doesn't it seem a bit hypocritical for a Christian to oppose it? Isn't there an inherent trust amongst Christians that allows them to believe that people will not abuse programs such as the aforementioned? I think that with the emergence of the jaded Christian, both believers and non-believers alike have grown disgusted.I believe you are somewhat correct.

I believe Christians should have the heart of a liberal and the mind of a conservative. What I mean is, we are to help the poor sacrificially, but we should also be shrewd managers of our resources, not just waste it. Put your money to work, but not foolishly. Our values however should be conservative on subjects such as morality, as Jesus's were.

I believe many Christians defected from the Democrats because they deemed morality more important than sacrificial giving etc. Unfortunately, instead of changing the GOP to be like them, the opposite happened.

[twa]

Zguy, thats a good explanation.

We indeed need to help others,but the present model of the government taking and it's method of distributing is both ineffective and counter productive in many ways to the christian model..
It also disconnects us from the process,lessening the sacrificial giving's effect on both the giver and recipients.imo

[Henry]

Damn Jews, they're running everything.

- Mel Gibson.

Like I said. It scares the crap outta me.

[Zguy28]

When you live your life exactly like Jesus, Paul, Peter, or John this is a meaningful comparision.That's irrelevant and a cop out Peter. You seem to make justifications for yourself with these statements about how the situation is not the same, yet the Kingdom of God hasn't changed from then til now, and many of those around you are perishing. The early church in Jerusalem started to take the same attitude as you with regards to the Great Commission. They stopped seeking the lost. They started to just stagnate in Jerusalem and in their faith and said "let the Apostles do all of the ministry". Then persecution came and scattered them abroad so that they would continue to fulfill God's mission. If what you said was the truth, then nobody would be Christian right now, and Christianity would have died in the Second Century.

At the Great White Throne judgment, I hope you are ready to look those folks in the eye when they say "Why didn't you at least try to tell me once?" :(

[Zguy28]

Zguy, thats a good explanation.

We indeed need to help others,but the present model of the government taking and it's method of distributing is both ineffective and counter productive in many ways to the christian model..
It also disconnects us from the process,lessening the sacrificial giving's effect on both the giver and recipients.imoI agree. Throwing money at things or spending it just because we have it is foolishness and bad stewardship. It has many levels to this problem. Part of it is that many churches cannot do the work they should (feeding hungry, housing the homeless etc) because members have a very capitalist mindset and don't give enough monetarily or in their own time.

[stevenaa]

Here's the biggest loophole in Christianity.

Get baptized.

Even if you don't believe in it, and you're wrong, you are forgiven.


Baptism is simply a public display of your faith. It has nothing to do with salvation, other than to demonstrate you've accepted Christ.

[Zguy28]

Baptism is simply a public display of your faith. It has nothing to do with salvation, other than to demonstrate you've accepted Christ.That's a Baptist view. I think Roman Catholics would disagree.

You could start a whole other discussion on paedobaptism versus believers baptism.

[Mufumonk]

That among MANY other misunderstanding are common issues.....


While I am still a habitual sinner I consider myself a model for fellow Christians.....

How very humble of you. Jesus would be proud.

[alexey]

While I am still a habitual sinner I consider myself a model for fellow Christians.....
That mindset alone disqualifies you as such.



You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

[prophet]

That mindset alone disqualifies you as such.
Not True...

While probably not the best thing to type down on this board I would not call it ungodly. Typical Knee Jerk Reaction again.

1 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
1 Corinthians 4:15-17 1 Corinthians 4
Hebrews 6:12
We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Hebrews 6:11-13 Hebrews 6
Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13:6-8 Hebrews 13

[GibbsFactor]

Baptism is simply a public display of your faith. It has nothing to do with salvation, other than to demonstrate you've accepted Christ.

And that's all you need to do. Trying to argue this point is not sensible sense ALL sins are forgiven.

[alexey]

Not True...

While probably not the best thing to type down on this board I would not call it ungodly. Typical Knee Jerk Reaction again.

1 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
1 Corinthians 4:15-17 1 Corinthians 4
Hebrews 6:12
We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Hebrews 6:11-13 Hebrews 6
Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13:6-8 Hebrews 13
He certainly didn't get to "I consider myself a model for fellow Christians" by imitating those who inherited what has been promised through patience and faith.

[Zguy28]

Well, this certainly took a turn for the worse in short order.

[Mufumonk]

Not True...

While probably not the best thing to type down on this board I would not call it ungodly. Typical Knee Jerk Reaction again.

1 Corinthians 4:16
Therefore I urge you to imitate me.
1 Corinthians 4:15-17 1 Corinthians 4
Hebrews 6:12
We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised.
Hebrews 6:11-13 Hebrews 6
Hebrews 13:7
Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
Hebrews 13:6-8 Hebrews 13

“Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted” (Matthew 23:12).

[The_cavalierman]

Damn Jews, they're running everything.

- Mel Gibson.


:laugh:

Mel has issues...

[prophet]

Knee jerk police in full effect! Yippie! :applause:

[PeterMP]

That's irrelevant and a cop out Peter. You seem to make justifications for yourself with these statements about how the situation is not the same, yet the Kingdom of God hasn't changed from then til now, and many of those around you are perishing. The early church in Jerusalem started to take the same attitude as you with regards to the Great Commission. They stopped seeking the lost. They started to just stagnate in Jerusalem and in their faith and said "let the Apostles do all of the ministry". Then persecution came and scattered them abroad so that they would continue to fulfill God's mission. If what you said was the truth, then nobody would be Christian right now, and Christianity would have died in the Second Century.

At the Great White Throne judgment, I hope you are ready to look those folks in the eye when they say "Why didn't you at least try to tell me once?" :(

So you believe all Christians are called to be actively part of the Great Commission?

I think this study actually nicely shows the flaw in that reasoning. The increased activity of the religious right (which is partly their involvment in Great Commission) is pushing people away from Christianity- not pulling people towards it. Many people just don't have the ability to properly persuade people about something like Christianity and so resort to things and methods that just push people away. Note, I'm not saying that nobody should be serving this role, but just not everybody, and currently, the people that seem to do it most vocally are the people that seem to be the least skilled at doing it. Of course, maybe it is the fact that they are most vocal that makes them the least skilled. There are several places where Paul goes into a new area, finds some new believers and then rather then continually publically debate those that don't believe, takes the ones that do believe and withdraws and teaches them further. This of course from a public perspective would make him less vocal then some of the current "religious leaders" that insist on continually shouting at masses of people that have already shouted them down.

In general, I think people that are trying to be part of the Great Commission should try reading things like Acts 26 to see how Paul addressed non-Christians.

As for the rest of it, at least according to Acts, you are wrong. Acts has the Church growing nicely in and around Jerusalem, and they even added people to the "rank" of disciples despite persecution (flogging and imprisionment). Further persecution (the stoning) and the scattering of the Church comes shortly after that not after a period of stagnation.

[prophet]

Well, this certainly took a turn for the worse in short order.

Nothing new here! :laugh:

[alexey]

Knee jerk police in full effect! Yippie! :applause:
Perhaps there is some useful information there.

[prophet]

Perhaps there is some useful information there.
Prehaps you are right, and prehaps you are reading way to much into it. :2cents:

[SUNSTONE]

While I am still a habitual sinner I consider myself a model for fellow Christians.....

Then you are not a model citizen.

[The_cavalierman]

You want to know the problem that Christianity is having that's caused its image to decline....

The fact that we live in a "Now" society. We want things now. We want our rewards now. Oh, and we don't want to have to sacrifice anything to get those rewards.

Whereas Christianity is an "Eat the **** sandwich now to get your reward later" philosophy. That just doesn't play real well with a large segment of the population anymore. It's definitely part of why I am no longer a Christian.

Interesting,

I do believe that might be part of the problem. The lifestyle certainly fails in comparison to what we see on TV.

[China]

It's this kind of thing that to me reflects poorly on Christianity:

Suffer Not the Trick-or-Treaters (http://www.cbn.com/SpiritualLife/Devotions/DAugostine_Halloween.aspx)


In middle school, I met some friends who introduced me to another world. They told me that they could contact the dead and learn hidden secrets about their lives. I'll never forget the time I asked the ouija board who I would marry. It replied, "the Devil."

I think the Ouija board was right, she is married to the Devil, she just doesn't realize it.


Sadly, the demonic hauntings I experienced growing up are common among many young children today. I would venture to say that 20 years later, it has gotten much worse. The lures of the Enemy are running more rampant. Chidren do not have to sneak over to their friends' houses to access demonic influences.

There are obviously plenty of demonic influences at her house. After all, she is married to the Devil.


Did you ever wonder why Halloween seems to primarily feed off of a market of 3-13 year olds? This is a Satanic ploy for our children.

Obviously she's never been invited to a costume party (I wonder why) or participated in any other type of Halloween celebrations as an adult. Dressing up as Buzz Lightyear is not indoctrinating your child into a satanic cult.



Consider your options. There are many message-driven alternatives to offer, other than a bowl full of candy. For instance, there are Gospel tracts designed for trick-or-treaters that can be purchased online or at your Christian bookstore. You might also want to consider designing your own tracts or attaching scripture messages to the treats.

This kind of thing bothers me. If you don't like Halloween don't participate. But don't push your religion on my child by handing out religious materials. I'll take care of my child's spiritual needs in the way I see fit.

[Zguy28]

It's this kind of thing that to me reflects poorly on Christianity:

Suffer Not the Trick-or-Treaters (http://www.cbn.com/SpiritualLife/Devotions/DAugostine_Halloween.aspx)



I think the Ouija board was right, she is married to the Devil, she just doesn't realize it.



There are obviously plenty of demonic influences at her house. After all, she is married to the Devil.



Obviously she's never been invited to a costume party (I wonder why) or participated in any other type of Halloween celebrations as an adult. Dressing up as Buzz Lightyear is not indoctrinating your child into a satanic cult.




This kind of thing bothers me. If you don't like Halloween don't participate. But don't push your religion on my child by handing out religious materials. I'll take care of my child's spiritual needs in the way I see fit.I use tracts all the time. Halloween is no different. Its just another opportunity to hand them out. End of story.

It seems like your reaction is very similar to those Christians who think Halloween is some kind big bad boogeyman who will lead our kids to Satan. If you don't like getting handed a tract on Halloween throw it away. :2cents:

[Corcaigh]

I use tracts all the time. Halloween is no different. Its just another opportunity to hand them out. End of story.



Kids come to the door hoping to show off their costume and get some candy, but they get the trick. :doh:

Do you think it's reasonable to do this without the parent's informed consent? Would you be upset if your kids were proselytized by, say the Jehovah's Witnesses, when they called on a house?

I know they're the ones knocking on the door, but really do you think this is right given it's Halloween?

[Oldskool]

Everyone is a hypocrite in one form or another.

Many people who say that the follow a faith, belief system, etc do not adhere to the very tenements that they espouse to others.

Christianity doesn't have an image problem, humanity does.

[prophet]

Everyone is a hypocrite in one form or another.

Many people who say that the follow a faith, belief system, etc do not adhere to the very tenements that they espouse to others.

Christianity doesn't have an image problem, humanity does.

Bravo!

[China]

I use tracts all the time. Halloween is no different. Its just another opportunity to hand them out. End of story.

It seems like your reaction is very similar to those Christians who think Halloween is some kind big bad boogeyman who will lead our kids to Satan. If you don't like getting handed a tract on Halloween throw it away. :2cents:

I'm not getting the tract, my child is. If you want to push your religion on adults who know what they're getting into fine, but don't push it on my kid. That's not your responsibility, it's mine.

[prophet]

I'm not getting the tract, my child is. If you want to push your religion on adults who know what they're getting into fine, but don't push it on my kid. That's not your responsibility, it's mine.
Curious question...

Do you feel the same about public schools teaching things that I don't want my child to learn about?

[prophet]

So you believe all Christians are called to be actively part of the Great Commission?

I think this study actually nicely shows the flaw in that reasoning. The increased activity of the religious right (which is partly their involvment in Great Commission) is pushing people away from Christianity- not pulling people towards it. Many people just don't have the ability to properly persuade people about something like Christianity and so resort to things and methods that just push people away. Note, I'm not saying that nobody should be serving this role, but just not everybody, and currently, the people that seem to do it most vocally are the people that seem to be the least skilled at doing it. Of course, maybe it is the fact that they are most vocal that makes them the least skilled. There are several places where Paul goes into a new area, finds some new believers and then rather then continually publically debate those that don't believe, takes the ones that do believe and withdraws and teaches them further. This of course from a public perspective would make him less vocal then some of the current "religious leaders" that insist on continually shouting at masses of people that have already shouted them down.

In general, I think people that are trying to be part of the Great Commission should try reading things like Acts 26 to see how Paul addressed non-Christians.

As for the rest of it, at least according to Acts, you are wrong. Acts has the Church growing nicely in and around Jerusalem, and they even added people to the "rank" of disciples despite persecution (flogging and imprisionment). Further persecution (the stoning) and the scattering of the Church comes shortly after that not after a period of stagnation.
Yes everyone is called to Tell. But I do agree you should have the basic down before you go and tell.

:2cents:

[Henry]

Curious question...

Do you feel the same about public schools teaching things that I don't want my child to learn about?

I would think a responsible parent would be in constant contact with his child's teachers and school administrators throughout the school year, so that no, there should be no suprises regarding what the school teaches someone's kids.

Same in this situation. It would be a nice courtesy if the person handing out literature would do so with the approval of a child's parents, and Halloween might not afford an opportunity to do that.

That said, parents should really be paying attention to what strangers are handing their kids no matter what it is. My kids have been handed VHS tapes of Bibleman on Halloween more than once. I don't think much of it. We just throw them out. (Sorry :) )

[China]

Curious question...

Do you feel the same about public schools teaching things that I don't want my child to learn about?

There is a big difference between a school system and a neighbor. What the school system teaches is a community decision and should not involve religion. So if the school system sent religious tracts home with my son I'd feel the same way.

[Zguy28]

Kids come to the door hoping to show off their costume and get some candy, but they get the trick. :doh:

Do you think it's reasonable to do this without the parent's informed consent? Would you be upset if your kids were proselytized by, say the Jehovah's Witnesses, when they called on a house?

I know they're the ones knocking on the door, but really do you think this is right given it's Halloween?So, wait, some people think children should be able to get abortions without parental consent, but you think I shouldn't be able to give them literature? Talk about backwards society.

Anyways, I wouldn't have a problem with it. Its nothing more than a piece of paper. I am actually hoping the parents will read it to them. :)

And yes I also am generous with the candy. Its the same thing when I go out to eat and give a tract to my server. I always am extra generous with the tip before giving them the gospel tract. It would be terribly rude to give them a tract and no tip. That doesn't give a very favorable impression now does it? (I hate it when Christians do boneheaded stuff like that btw)

Sometimes I actually give out money to people in public in order to break the ice with people. I put a fresh new $1 bill in a tract that says:


Why give away money? There are four reasons: First. As a small token of apology for the fact that so many have asked for money in the name of Christianity. Christians should be giving to the community, not taking from it.

The second reason is to ask you an important question. Do you consider yourself to be a good person? Let's look at the Ten Commandments and see if you are. Have you ever told a lie? And it goes on to share the whole gospel.

[Corcaigh]

So, wait, some people think children should be able to get abortions without parental consent, but you think I shouldn't be able to give them literature? Talk about backwards society.




That justification for proselytizing to kids without parental consent is as bad as I've ever heard. :doh:

:laugh:

[Zguy28]

I'm not getting the tract, my child is. If you want to push your religion on adults who know what they're getting into fine, but don't push it on my kid. That's not your responsibility, it's mine.You know, you're right. It is your responsibility. Go find out who in your neighborhood is giving them out and don't let your kid go there. Then we won't indoctrinate your children. :)

[Zguy28]

That justification for proselytizing to kids without parental consent is as bad as I've ever heard. :doh:

:laugh:Its not justification. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, because its not in any way, but I don't need to justify myself to you. I was pointing out the absurdity of your notion. ;)

[alexey]

Do you feel the same about public schools teaching things that I don't want my child to learn about?
What do you have against your children learning about the Civil War? ;)

[China]

You know, you're right. It is your responsibility. Go find out who in your neighborhood is giving them out and don't let your kid go there. Then we won't indoctrinate your children. :)

Nowadays most trick-or-treaters have adult chaperones when they go out. Why don't you just give the tracts to the adults and the candy to the children? Then the adults can decide whether to pass on the info to their kids.

[Corcaigh]

Its not justification. I hope this doesn't sound arrogant, because its not in any way, but I don't need to justify myself to you. I was pointing out the absurdity of your notion. ;)


If you put up a sign warning parents not to send their kids to your house because of what you have in store I'd agree, but I think what you are doing is contrary to the spirit of the holiday.

EDIT - and the fact that you feel you don't need to justify this sort of behavior toward children on Halloween explains the negative perception of Christians. :)

[DeanCollins]

Nowadays most trick-or-treaters have adult chaperones when they go out. Why don't you just give the tracts to the adults and the candy to the children? Then the adults can decide whether to pass on the info to their kids.

sounds like the tobacco industry :laugh:

[China]

You know, you're right. It is your responsibility. Go find out who in your neighborhood is giving them out and don't let your kid go there. Then we won't indoctrinate your children. :)

Be realistic. Am I supposed to be psychic to know who will be giving out literature, or should I knock on every door in the neighborhood in advance to ask and then tell my little kid to memorize the addresses of all the houses to which he should not go?

[Zguy28]

Be realistic. Am I supposed to be psychic to know who will be giving out literature, or should I knock on every door in the neighborhood in advance to ask and then tell my little kid to memorize the addresses of all the houses to which he should not go?As well should I go around and ask every parent if its ok to give their kids a piece of literature about Jesus at the same time I give them candy? I'm just being honest. To me, its just another day, but with a bigger opportunity to outreach to people.

Like Henry said he does, just throw it away if you don't want it. :)

[China]

As well should I go around and ask every parent if its ok to give their kids a piece of literature about Jesus at the same time I give them candy?

Yes. The point being, you don't have to go around to ask. There are parents with the kids, ask them. Maybe you'll strike up a conversation to further your outreach goals. You may be more effective that way.

[Enter Apotheosis]

Yes. The point being, you don't have to go around to ask. There are parents with the kids, ask them. Maybe you'll strike up a conversation to further your outreach goals. You may be more effective that way.

Otherwise I may have to move into ZGuy's neighborhood and start promoting communism and abortion.

[Zguy28]

Yes. The point being, you don't have to go around to ask. There are parents with the kids, ask them. Maybe you'll strike up a conversation to further your outreach goals. You may be more effective that way.That's good advice and its something I already do. Statistics show it is far more likely that a whole family will become Christians if the father is the first one to become one. Unfortunately most kids don't bring chaperones. :(

[Zguy28]

Otherwise I may have to move into ZGuy's neighborhood and start promoting communism and abortion.I know you are being sarcastic, but hey go ahead. :)

I wouldn't mind. I already have mormons, JW's, etc around me. No sweat. I'd just explain to my kids what's wrong about those things and move on. :cheers:

[Enter Apotheosis]

I know you are being sarcastic, but hey go ahead. :)

I wouldn't mind. I already have mormons, JW's, etc around me. No sweat. I'd just explain to my kids what's wrong about those things and move on. :cheers:

We're supposed to be fostering an environment where parents don't have to teach their kids anything, though...

[Henry]

I know you are being sarcastic, but hey go ahead. :)

I wouldn't mind. I already have mormons, JW's, etc around me. No sweat. I'd just explain to my kids what's wrong about those things and move on. :cheers:

Now I've already said the tract thing at Halloween is no big deal, and it isn't, but this conversation is taking an interesting turn. This comment especially, and also Prophet's comment about public schools.

I don't think Christians, even very devout Christians, have ANY idea what it's like to be a member an extremely small minority, religiously speaking. My five year-old daughter, for example, has more than once told me she doesn't want to be Jewish anymore because everyone in her school is Christian. She wants to celebrate Christmas. She wants Easter. She wants to see her freinds at church.

And she goes to a Godless, heathen, we-teach-evolution-and-don't-say-bad-things-about-gays public school in liberal, diverse, the-South-don't-want-us-no-more Northern Virginia. You all have such a huge, huge monoploy on culture in this country, and every time that culture moves an inch away from you, there are cries of persecution. There is talk of how we non-Christians are secretly running things and conspiring to sabotage Christianity from within. It's laughable really. Of COURSE the mormons and JW's don't worry you. You're in the immense majority. If there were 3 of you to every 97 Mormons, I guarantee you wouldn't be so flip about them trying to recruit your kids away from you.

Just sayin.

Sorry for the rant.

[twa]

China, I don't know if you have kids but it is a very good idea to both know who's door they are knocking on AND check whatever they get before the kids handle it.....A bible trac is the least of your worries.

[Zguy28]

Now I've already said the tract thing at Halloween is no big deal, and it isn't, but this conversation is taking an interesting turn. This comment especially, and also Prophet's comment about public schools.

I don't think Christians, even very devout Christians, have ANY idea what it's like to be a member an extremely small minority, religiously speaking. My five year-old daughter, for example, has more than once told me she doesn't want to be Jewish anymore because everyone in her school is Christian. She wants to celebrate Christmas. She wants Easter. She wants to see her freinds at church.

And she goes to a Godless, heathen, we-teach-evolution-and-don't-say-bad-things-about-gays public school in liberal, diverse, the-South-don't-want-us-no-more Northern Virginia. You all have such a huge, huge monoploy on culture in this country, and every time that culture moves an inch away from you, there are cries of persecution. There is talk of how we non-Christians are secretly running things and conspiring to sabotage Christianity from within. It's laughable really. Of COURSE the mormons and JW's don't worry you. You're in the immense majority. If there were 3 of you to every 97 Mormons, I guarantee you wouldn't be so flip about them trying to recruit your kids away from you.

Just sayin.

Sorry for the rant.You make good points Henry. I respect your views. But let me say this. If there are such an overwhelming majority of Christians in the USA, why would we have a bad image of ourselves? Or is it just the evangelical christians?

And like I said, I agree with you about how we cry when things are secularized more and more. That's why I didn't understand or agree with Cavalierman's statement about the USA becoming more Christianized in the other thread.

[Enter Apotheosis]

You make good points Henry. I respect your views. But let me say this. If there are such an overwhelming majority of Christians in the USA, why would we have a bad image of ourselves? Or is it just the evangelical christians?

And like I said, I agree with you about how we cry when things are secularized more and more. That's why I didn't understand or agree with Cavalierman's statement about the USA becoming more Christianized.

The bad image originates with evangelicals but is slowly being spread to all groups of Christians because most people tend to use blanket statements when referencing the actions of a few. This militarizes many other Christians not intended to fall under said blanket statement to respond harshly to a perceived attack and from there the conflict escalates.

[prophet]

There is a big difference between a school system and a neighbor. What the school system teaches is a community decision and should not involve religion. So if the school system sent religious tracts home with my son I'd feel the same way.


You have got to be kidding with that awnser. :laugh:

You have just proved my point! :applause:

[Henry]

You make good points Henry. I respect your views. But let me say this. If there are such an overwhelming majority of Christians in the USA, why would we have a bad image of ourselves? Or is it just the evangelical christians?

And like I said, I agree with you about how we cry when things are secularized more and more. That's why I didn't understand or agree with Cavalierman's statement about the USA becoming more Christianized in the other thread.

First of all, you're a good guy, Z. I didn't mean for that to come across as an attack on you. Yours just happened to be the last post I read before posting.

Why do you have a bad image of yourselves? Frankly, because you have MORE power now than you had ten years ago. It's funny that AJ claims the non-Christians are running things when, for the first time in decades, the party with which Christians associate has dominated all three branches of our government (and maybe that's why non-Christians seem to be more vocal these days.) With the GOP having basically un-fettered control of things, Christians finally had their people in place.

And what happened? The same thing that happened when the Dems had all the power in '92. Not enough. I think Christians are frustrated with eachother for not weilding their increased political power as a unified force these past ten years. And now that the political pendulum is starting to swing back they are lashing out, blaming eachother, blaming non-Christians, blaming our supposedly Godless culture .. whoever and whatever they can find for not getting more done when they had the chance.

But really, that's not anyone fault. That's the way things work in this country. Slow and frustrating.

I just don't like seeing frustrated Christians. :)

[Zguy28]

First of all, you're a good guy, Z. I didn't mean for that to come across as an attack on you. Yours just happened to be the last post I read before posting.

Why do you have a bad image of yourselves? Frankly, because you have MORE power now than you had ten years ago. It's funny that AJ claims the non-Christians are running things when, for the first time in decades, the party with which Christians associate has dominated all three branches of our government (and maybe that's why non-Christians seem to be more vocal these days.) With the GOP having basically un-fettered control of things, Christians finally had their people in place.

And what happened? The same thing that happened when the Dems had all the power in '92. Not enough. I think Christians are frustrated with eachother for not weilding their increased political power as a unified force these past ten years. And now that the political pendulum is starting to swing back they are lashing out, blaming eachother, blaming non-Christians, blaming our supposedly Godless culture .. whoever and whatever they can find for not getting more done when they had the chance.

But really, that's not anyone fault. That's the way things work in this country. Slow and frustrating.

I just don't like seeing frustrated Christians. :)I hear you on that. I left the Republicans for those very reasons. They keep promising Christians stuff, and all they do is bring war and wide stances in airport bathrooms. Empty promises, the real American dream. :(

[Mufumonk]

As well should I go around and ask every parent if its ok to give their kids a piece of literature about Jesus at the same time I give them candy? I'm just being honest. To me, its just another day, but with a bigger opportunity to outreach to people.

Like Henry said he does, just throw it away if you don't want it. :)

If a kid doesn't have an adult with them keep your literature to yourself.