Why can't Redskins fans take criticism of their team/coach?

[Heisenberg]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.

Rant over.

:helmet:

[the krabber]

BRAVO! :applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

Nailed it on the head. Im right there with you.

[no1fanofno21]

i wish the national and local media would call out Gibbs for being lousy. The only people that i hear talking bad about gibbs are posters on here and my friends.

I don't really know where your going with this.............but ive been calling for his head for the last few years.

[LD0506]

How dare you! You are obviously a closet Cowboy fan!

[No_Pressure]

A lot of the time I only hate criticism from people like the entire MNF crew that predicted us to lose and didn't even know the name of our QB or called Mike Sellers Brad Sellers, etc. I don't care if someone has an educated and supported negative opinion of the Redskins, I care when someone who clearly doesn't know anything about the team (can't even name the QB, Emmitt) declares that we are a bad team because they looked at our record from last season or remembered 2000 when Dan Snyder went on a spending spree or something.

[Merlin Emrys]

You must not visit this forum much. The team and coach have caught all kinds of flak around here since the Giants loss, just as they did when Brunell wasn't yanked sooner last year.

Believe what you want, but you're out in left field dude.

[kevin11]

I really dont know what your talking about. Everybody is starting to say Gibbs needs to go or at least grow a sack. I hate negative nancys who just bash the skins and say the cowboys are great. They drive me crazy. We have very many in the ATN.

I love being an underdog because its awesome when sombody says, "they suck, they lost to the redskins."

[Heisenberg]

You must not visit this forum much. The team and coach have caught all kinds of flak around here since the Giants loss, just as they did when Brunell wasn't yanked sooner last year.

Believe what you want, but you're out in left field dude.


I definitely am not out in left field. I'm not saying the team and coach don't catch flak because I know that they do. But everytime I see a thread with someone questioning something or even remotely hinting that it might be time for Gibbs to retire,or if someone like Brian Mitchell or someone on the radio talks negative (which he is inclined to do maybe more so than others but I find him to be on point about a lot of things, minus the Portis issue) then there are automatically like 10 posters going ape **** about "Don't you dare question Gibbs . . . you aren't even old enough to appreciate what Gibbs has done for this organization, etc." It's just really irritating because so many people act like Gibbs should have a lifetime contract because of something he did so well such a long time ago. I just think some people can be really absurd with their homerism and not admitting that critics and critical fans alike may be right sometimes.

[Hogisme]

It takes time to build a winner and bring in your systems...year 4 and 5 are the times where judgement is passed...he inherited a draft mess, losing attitudes, and poor players. Wait till the damn year is over and quit pretending you know what you are talking about by posting such a thread. It doesn't take balls to post such a thread here but a little brains would be freaking astounding...we have played 3 games!!!!!!!!!!!! we are 2 and 1 and everybody on this Board would be ecstatic before the year started if we could say that...Try not sounding like you know more then Joe Gibbs cause it sounds absolutely foolish!!! Hail to All of the Skins!!! Including the coaching staff!

[clietas]

your 22! If you remembered anything from Gibbs first stint here I think You too would cut him some slack.


EDIT: Look at how long it took a guy like Cowher to win a SB, and now all anyone can talk about is how Cowher needs to replace so ans so. Its BS! Be patient U still have alot of football left to watch in your lifetime.

[bulldog]

it's not the criticism necessarily, but the apparent glee that comes with a lot of the negatives from those making the comments.

it appears there are a host of national media that haven't liked Snyder all along and so that dripping sarcasm is somehow projected on to a Head Coach that wasn't around for the early years of excess with Deion and Bruce Smith and the nasty departures of Marty and Brad Johnson, etc.

there is NOTHING wrong with criticizing a team for finishing 5-11.

I certainly have made my share of observations about areas I think the team should have addressed in the past that came back to bite us.

at the same time we see a LOT of criticism of Gibbs for 2 plays against the Giants, negative comments about him being 'past it', etc. while at the same time we see the Saints at 0-3 looking like crap, the Bears at 1-3 looking like crap, the Rams at 0-4 looking like crap, and the Eagles at 1-3 looking like crap.............

and those coaches, Sean Payton, Lovie Smith and Andy Reid seem to be immune from what I would think is justifiable criticism for their teams' lackluster performances.

The Redskins, despite the poor second half against the Giants, are still 2-1.

Which is a better mark than any of these clubs.

What do I want to see?

As much scrutiny for Sean Payton and the Saints for coming out and getting blown off the field for 3 consecutive weeks with a poor defense, as for Gibbs for ONE HALF of poor play in 3 games :)

That would only seem fair to me :D

[DCsportsfan53]

I think it's simply because, as much as most of us care about the Redskins, it's like family. You've got their back and defend them even when you know they're wrong. It comes with the terrirtory when you irrationally love something you're not really involved in and have no control or affect on, I suppose.

I hear you, though, it certainly is annoying and it's now how I choose to show my fandom. But to each his own, it's just going to happen. I try to be realistic about it but even now, as much as a disappointment as Gibbs II has been you won't see me calling for his head or wishing him fired. It's irrational, I know, on merit alone there's no reason to object to calling for his replacement but for some of us, myself included, we just can't seem to separate what Gibbs has done in the past from the present. We keep expecting the "real" Gibbs to show up at any moment. We'll see what happens but I'll say this, my confidence in his ability to succeed as an NFL coach has been shaken, severly shaken, by what's transpired so far in his second go round. Still can't get myself to start calling for Cowher yet, though. :)

[clietas]

I'll stick by Gibbs till the end. And once he does hang it up for good I think even the people that wanted him run outa town will rethink what they actually had. Let me just ask u one thing, How may HOF coaches are still coaching in the NFL? and I dont mean in the HOF now , I mean HOF caliber!

[sikizler]

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years.

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. Gibbs is Gibbs. Gibbs is God.

I can play the if game too. I'm not saying that he deserves a lifetime contract, but if Spurrier or Marty had three Lombardis (the only three for this franchise), they would have been given more than three years and three games too.

I've done my share of bashing the personell moves and the "splitting carries." But coach signed a five year deal when he came back and has insisted that he will honor that. Shouldn't the team do the same for a man of his stature?

[D'KanSkinFan]

I definitely am not out in left field. I'm not saying the team and coach don't catch flak because I know that they do. But everytime I see a thread with someone questioning something or even remotely hinting that it might be time for Gibbs to retire,or if someone like Brian Mitchell or someone on the radio talks negative (which he is inclined to do maybe more so than others but I find him to be on point about a lot of things, minus the Portis issue) then there are automatically like 10 posters going ape **** about "Don't you dare question Gibbs . . . you aren't even old enough to appreciate what Gibbs has done for this organization, etc." It's just really irritating because so many people act like Gibbs should have a lifetime contract because of something he did so well such a long time ago. I just think some people can be really absurd with their homerism and not admitting that critics and critical fans alike may be right sometimes.


Romo is that you? Dude, talk about NEGATIVITY - You're just wrong..........

[sikizler]

I think it's simply because, as much as most of us care about the Redskins, it's like family. You've got their back and defend them even when you know they're wrong. It comes with the terrirtory when you irrationally love something you're not really involved in and have no control or affect on, I suppose.

I hear you, though, it certainly is annoying and it's now how I choose to show my fandom. But to each his own, it's just going to happen. I try to be realistic about it but even now, as much as a disappointment as Gibbs II has been you won't see me calling for his head or wishing him fired. It's irrational, I know, on merit alone there's no reason to object to calling for his replacement but for some of us, myself included, we just can't seem to separate what Gibbs has done in the past from the present. We keep expecting the "real" Gibbs to show up at any moment. We'll see what happens but I'll say this, my confidence in his ability to succeed as an NFL coach has been shaken, severly shaken, by what's transpired so far in his second go round. Still can't get myself to start calling for Cowher yet, though. :)

Totally agree with the first paragraph.

Do you guys remember when the "real Gibbs" showed up two years ago? Week 13 maybe? I give him a pass for last year. The team's best player was hurt, the defense was a shell of it's former self due to injuries and personel changes. I've been saying this for a while too, Gibbs should stick to coaching and we should get a real GM. But DS won't let that happen and that is my only real criticism of him.

[Dance04]

It takes time to build a winner and bring in your systems...year 4 and 5 are the times where judgement is passed...he inherited a draft mess, losing attitudes, and poor players. Wait till the damn year is over and quit pretending you know what you are talking about by posting such a thread. It doesn't take balls to post such a thread here but a little brains would be freaking astounding...we have played 3 games!!!!!!!!!!!! we are 2 and 1 and everybody on this Board would be ecstatic before the year started if we could say that...Try not sounding like you know more then Joe Gibbs cause it sounds absolutely foolish!!! Hail to All of the Skins!!! Including the coaching staff!

I'm fed up of people saying WE ARE 2 AND 1!!! likes its some sort of justification. We won on a field goal in OT against the absolutely pathetic dolphins, we couldnt put away a garbage eagles team ( it came down to a last minute 4th down play) and we failed to maintain a HUGE lead on a division rival. Sure we have a winning record but we could have a losing record.

Here's a PERFECT example... The Rams last year, started off 3-1, but they stank. In the end they finished 8-8, and it should have been 7-9 (we should have beat them last year)

To date the play calling has been less then impressive, portis and betts haven't been doing very well, moss is dropping passes like the footballs are hot coals and Campbells rating is 69.9, 34th in the league


Now flame me for not being a "true fan" simply because I'm not wearing homer goggles and think everything is ok. I am allowed to have an opinion and this message board is set up for me to express it

[scruffylookin]

I used to be one of those fans.

2006 changed that.

I began to see that there was indeed a difference in Joe Gibbs and I began to seperate Gibbs 1 and Gibbs 2.

Because of what he did for this organization in the past, he's earned the right to fulfill his contract. So I'd never call for his firing. The closest I'd come would be saying, "If this wasn't Joe Gibbs, he should be gone."

But I agree, if it was anyone else (Coach X) alot of the same people who continue to make excuses for Gibbs 2 would be on here advocating Coach X's firing.

All that said, the Skins are 2-1 so let's hope 06 was an aberration and the Giants game just a hiccup.

[jaxskinsville]

A lot of the time I only hate criticism from people like the entire MNF crew that predicted us to lose and didn't even know the name of our QB or called Mike Sellers Brad Sellers, etc. I don't care if someone has an educated and supported negative opinion of the Redskins, I care when someone who clearly doesn't know anything about the team (can't even name the QB, Emmitt) declares that we are a bad team because they looked at our record from last season or remembered 2000 when Dan Snyder went on a spending spree or something.

I couldn't agree more. The Philly game is a perfect example. The talk throughout the game (and even threw some of our plays) was about McDabb.
It is understandable not to have receive a whole lot of respect considering our recent past but, come on, which team do you think had a more national following, Philly or Skins? A lot of times I just lower the sound so that I don't have to hear them talk.

[Jay Master Jay]

Because he still is in the Hall of Fame clown get off the site please. LOL

[No_Pressure]

I couldn't agree more. The Philly game is a perfect example. The talk throughout the game (and even threw some of our plays) was about McDabb.
It is understandable not to have receive a whole lot of respect considering our recent past but, come on, which team do you think had a more national following, Philly or Skins? A lot of times I just lower the sound so that I don't have to hear them talk.

It was better back in MD when I could turn off the TV sound and get the play by play from the radio :(

[Stadium-Armory]

I
The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years.


I don't know about you, but I was pretty happy with the way 2005 went down.

[sikizler]

I'm fed up of people saying WE ARE 2 AND 1!!! likes its some sort of justification. We won on a field goal in OT against the absolutely pathetic dolphins, we couldnt put away a garbage eagles team ( it came down to a last minute 4th down play) and we failed to maintain a HUGE lead on a division rival. Sure we have a winning record but we could have a losing record.

Here's a PERFECT example... The Rams last year, started off 3-1, but they stank. In the end they finished 8-8, and it should have been 7-9 (we should have beat them last year)

To date the play calling has been less then impressive, portis and betts haven't been doing very well, moss is dropping passes like the footballs are hot coals and Campbells rating is 69.9, 34th in the league


Now flame me for not being a "true fan" simply because I'm not wearing homer goggles and think everything is ok. I am allowed to have an opinion and this message board is set up for me to express it

Soooooooo if Santana Moss was say Rod Gardner, would you be calling for him to be cut?

Personally, I'd be happy with 7-9 or 8-8 this year provided that we don't win 5-6 of those games questionably and get blown out of the water in the other 7-8. This team has a new QB and HUGE holes in the Dline. Not to mention the problems on the Oline. This team is a work in progress, I was thrilled when we made the playoffs in '05 but part of the reason that was so exciting was that no one expected it.

That team looked to be headed in the right direction. Then we let a gritty young safety walk in favor of a past-his-prime high paid vet (who wasn't even scheduled to start in week 1), our best player gets injured on a freak play the first series of the preseason and is not right all year, then one of our starting safeties is lost for the year on the opening kickoff. The progress off this team was derailed last year. As long as they look to be headed in the right direction this year, we'll retool we should like what we have going into '08. If not, then it might be time to blow it up and start over.

[sikizler]

It was better back in MD when I could turn off the TV sound and get the play by play from the radio :(

Tried that many times, never lines up right.

[Jay Master Jay]

Last year we took a step backwards and I would say the FA signings of Lloyd and A.A. made that possible. We couldnt stop anyone last year so I have no problem with Joe Gibbs. I have faith in Joe to get us where we want to go. You sound like a GIANTS fan???

[tr1]

Because he still is in the Hall of Fame clown get off the site please. LOL

:cheers:

[Merlin Emrys]

I definitely am not out in left field. I'm not saying the team and coach don't catch flak because I know that they do. But everytime I see a thread with someone questioning something or even remotely hinting that it might be time for Gibbs to retire,or if someone like Brian Mitchell or someone on the radio talks negative (which he is inclined to do maybe more so than others but I find him to be on point about a lot of things, minus the Portis issue) then there are automatically like 10 posters going ape **** about "Don't you dare question Gibbs . . . you aren't even old enough to appreciate what Gibbs has done for this organization, etc." It's just really irritating because so many people act like Gibbs should have a lifetime contract because of something he did so well such a long time ago. I just think some people can be really absurd with their homerism and not admitting that critics and critical fans alike may be right sometimes.

Please think hard about the alternative. Some of the biggest, recent problems with this franchise over Snyder's tenure has been 1) the lack of continuity in two key areas - coaching and QB and 2) a "win now" mentality at the expense of building for the long term.

When fans say its time now in year 4 of Gibbs II to go, they're asking the franchise to start all over again. This team needs continuity, not turn over. Gibbs II isn't only about winning now. Its about pulling this entire organization out of the sewer. While the results are terribly frustrating, stability in the coaching philosophy at at QB are positive steps.

A lot of people have criticized this franchise for sacrificing the future to win now; however, they also criticize the team when it isn't winning now. Which way do you want it? You can't have it both ways because turning the Redskins back into a winning franchise can't happen over night.

[RODAN1054]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.
Rant over.

:helmet:because the Skins get knocked enough by the media. TRhey dont need it from their fans also

[No_Pressure]

Tried that many times, never lines up right.

Are you watching the HD signal? My parents would always watch the HD channel downstairs but it had a delay and wouldn't sync up with the radio so I would go upstairs to watch on the regular signal and it was always right for me.

[Stadium-Armory]

Please think hard about the alternative. Some of the biggest, recent problems with this franchise over Snyder's tenure has been 1) the lack of continuity in two key areas - coaching and QB and 2) a "win now" mentality at the expense of building for the long term.

When fans say its time now in year 4 of Gibbs II to go, they're asking the franchise to start all over again. This team needs continuity, not turn over. Gibbs II isn't only about winning now. Its about pulling this entire organization out of the sewer. While the results are terribly frustrating, stability in the coaching philosophy at at QB are positive steps.

A lot of people have criticized this franchise for sacrificing the future to win now; however, they also criticize the team when it isn't winning now. Which way do you want it? You can't have it both ways because turning the Redskins back into a winning franchise can't happen over night.

Agreed. Continuity must be our charter. Even if we have fits and starts in the first few years. The hope is that we'll eventually build an organizational philosophy that we can hang our hats on. Then we just feed players in and reload each year. But you must have continuity, philosophy, system, organization in place to do so.

Its funny. Those on this board who want to sack Gibbs, are some of the same people who a few years ago chastised Snyder for the "yearly hired gun" mentality. You can't have it both ways.

[sikizler]

Are you watching the HD signal? My parents would always watch the HD channel downstairs but it had a delay and wouldn't sync up with the radio so I would go upstairs to watch on the regular signal and it was always right for me.

That must be it then. Thanks. I still choose HD.

[sikizler]

Please think hard about the alternative. Some of the biggest, recent problems with this franchise over Snyder's tenure has been 1) the lack of continuity in two key areas - coaching and QB and 2) a "win now" mentality at the expense of building for the long term.

Brilliant!:applause:

[illone]

Typically the criticism is emotional and without much merit.

It's one thing to complain about the team not executing in the 2nd half of the Giants, or god forbid talk about it intelligently. It's another issue if people want Gibbs fired after a few games, two of which we won, and continue to beat the dead horse as if anyone really cares how bad you think the team sucks.

:)

[mojobo]

I'm fed up of people saying WE ARE 2 AND 1!!! likes its some sort of justification.
winning does sort of justify the way you played... So we won in OT on a field goal and an 8 point game that was "close", we also only lost by one yard after controling the first half. It just seems so petty to call for a coaches job after one loss especially when that loss is backed up by 2 wins.

[Seabee1973]

You must not visit this forum much. The team and coach have caught all kinds of flak around here since the Giants loss, just as they did when Brunell wasn't yanked sooner last year.

Believe what you want, but you're out in left field dude.


He is not talking about that he is talking about when an espn reporter says the redskins are gonna finish 6-10 or 7-9 and then the fans on here say the reporter doesnt know what they are talking about and stuff liek that.

But its like i have been saying the skins wont get respect till they win consistantly

[MikeBass]

I do not think that it is about not taking criticism but a lot of the times on, not only this forum, but on most Redskins forums, criticism, is all you hear. On one particular Redskins board if you do NOT criticize the Redskins, YOU, are criticized. I think that is ridiculous and that the Cowboys board offers enough crticism for everyone.

This season is still early and we have a young QB behind a patchwork o-line and a defense in which the players are relatively new to each other and has probably not gelled yet and we still are 2-1. I think that the best is yet to come and that the all out criticism is not deserved yet.

[Walking Deadman]

it's not the criticism necessarily, but the apparent glee that comes with a lot of the negatives from those making the comments.



:applause: That's what I usually take issue with the criticism, there seem to be alot of media and Redskins fans who "enjoy" when we lose just to prove a point and rub it in our faces that we lost and we suck.

Hell, I have alot of issues with the team and what they are/aren't doing- nor does alot of things that the Skins have done since the return of Coach Gibbs make a great deal of sense (player moves/accquisitions, scheme changes, lack of communication, lack of adjustments, lack of clock management- play calling) but I don't enjoy conversing with too many people about it for the above reason.

[paloosa]

There are valid points about the way Gibbs has coached the team this time around. I believe that he is moving in the right direction but I believe he is still not quiet comfortable with the way the team is playing or who is playing. The defense is playing off the wall good but the offense is at a snails pace when it comes to scoring points. Establish the run early is Gibbs philosophy but that school of thinking is not the same as it was when he first coached. So maybe Gibbs needs to rethink this way of thinking but until we start loosing like we did last year In say we stand behind Gibbs to the end.

[hail2skins]

A lot of it was unrealistic expectations due to what Gibbs did in a league which didn't have a salary cap and more limited free agency. When he came back, two out of three losing seasons were certainly not part of the equation people saw.

Another is the continuity issue. Whenever a coach signs a contract it is for a fixed number of years, but I think most fans have the expectation that the contract will be extended if the coach is doing a reasonable job. With Gibbs, I think many fans expect that he is going to walk after 2008 no matter what. It does seem like we are heading in the right direction with young talent at the skill positions, and there's a lot of football left to be played this season. But if the Skins don't show a big amount of improvement and flounder to a record in the 7-9/8-8 range, the question of whether Gibbs should be here in 2008 solely for the sake of serving out his contract will certainly be a legitimate one. And Gibbs hasn't helped his cause during his second tenure with some questionable in-game decisionmaking, particularly recently. We'll just have to see how this year unfolds, but sooner or later this team will have to start looking toward who its future leader will be.

[NAILBOMB9]

your 22! If you remembered anything from Gibbs first stint here I think You too would cut him some slack.


EDIT: Look at how long it took a guy like Cowher to win a SB, and now all anyone can talk about is how Cowher needs to replace so ans so. Its BS! Be patient U still have alot of football left to watch in your lifetime.You're right, he wasn't around during Gibbs I. He's been around during Gibbs II in which his teams HAVEN'T DONE SQUAT!!! You can throw in the playoff year in which the DEFENSE was the ONLY reason we got there, but all in all if it was ANY other coach he would be getting tarred and feathered.

[Merlin Emrys]

He is not talking about that he is talking about when an espn reporter says the redskins are gonna finish 6-10 or 7-9 and then the fans on here say the reporter doesnt know what they are talking about and stuff liek that.

But its like i have been saying the skins wont get respect till they win consistantly

That's a subpoint he makes in paragraph 3, but its not the main idea. His main point is that posters on the board can't take criticism in any form, the media being one.

[JMU1330]

That's a subpoint he makes in paragraph 3, but its not the main idea. His main point is that posters on the board can't take criticism in any form, the media being one.

And he's 100% correct. Anything negative that's ever said about the team is because the person is either a) an idiot or b) as an agenda against them. The media criticism that comes at the team is almost always deserved. The revolving coaches, lack of interest in the draft, price gouging the fans, a meddlesome owner, overpaying mediocre talent, a weak (if not outright inept) GM, lack of depth, bumbling coaching mistakes, going for the big hire, etc etc etc. When you look at our record over the last decade, all of those are legitimate criticisms. They're not "out to get us", they're reporting (for the most part) simple facts. Or at least drawing reasonable conclusions.

The worst part of it all is that the same people that are so adverse to criticism on here will pull the "you're with us or against us" crap instead of wanting to have a reasonable discussion of what plagues our franchise. And the funny thing about that is, to me, a true fan is the one that can recognize serious flaws in the origination. Be pissed off about them and jump up and down about them. But still support the team on Sundays. But for some of you, unless you're wearing burgundy and gold sunglasses and wearing an "I <3 Dan Snyder" T-Shirt, you're "not a real fan". And that's a complete joke.

[Park City Skins]

I love the sweeping generalizations that tend to be used in threads such as this. The grouping of a large number of posters under one label or action,(or both), when discussing the differences in these posters opinions. They crack me up. Mostly because they are, by and large, incorrect. I read a lot of posts before becoming a mod. Now I read a whole lot more of what you people write these days, (which could be grounds for some type of serious therapy down the road ;) ), and it appears several of you would be surprised at how few posters actually pull the "real fan" routine on here. Every bit as much as some would be surprised at how few posters from the other side actually believe they have all the answers. Actually, believe it or not, many would be amazed at how many don't get worked up over the media criticism that comes the Redskins way. Something that became abundantly clear in a recent thread or 2 about just that.

[Swift]

You'll see a lot of people defending Gibbs because he's earned their respect. Simple as that. The man won 3 SB rings with three different QB's. He's HOF material, through and through.

To me (and many others), that gives him the right to do as he pleases without me second-guessing him from a distance. Why? Because he knows more about football and how it should be played than I'll EVER know. The man lives and breathes football. And, unlike EVERY ONE of the fans, he knows everything that happens behind the scenes at Redskins Park.

Do I think he's perfect? No, he'll make his mistakes, just like any other person would (Arch is a good example). But, he deserves the benefit of my doubt until proven wrong. And that, I'll give him.

[darrell1106]

I'll stick by Gibbs till the end. And once he does hang it up for good I think even the people that wanted him run outa town will rethink what they actually had. Let me just ask u one thing, How may HOF coaches are still coaching in the NFL? and I dont mean in the HOF now , I mean HOF caliber!
A few, imo. JGII is not coaching/general managing like a HOF coach right now.

[darrell1106]

You'll see a lot of people defending Gibbs because he's earned their respect. Simple as that. The man won 3 SB rings with three different QB's. He's HOF material, through and through.

To me (and many others), that gives him the right to do as he pleases without me second-guessing him from a distance. Why? Because he knows more about football and how it should be played than I'll EVER know. The man lives and breathes football. And, unlike EVERY ONE of the fans, he knows everything that happens behind the scenes at Redskins Park.

Do I think he's perfect? No, he'll make his mistakes, just like any other person would (Arch is a good example). But, he deserves the benefit of my doubt until proven wrong. And that, I'll give him.
So when are you proven wrong? People continue to say it takes 4-5 years to turn a franchise around, etc., etc. The guy is what....65? It took Cowher like 12 years, but they were regularly competitive. The skins have nothing near competitiveness over the last 10 years, including since JGII arrived.

[gortiz]

I love Gibbs

why would you? if your age is correct, he's done nothing for you to give a damn about him.

its like this, a lot of us grew up with Gibbs as the coach our team...you didn't. You'll never really get it, and we'll never really be able to explain it ...

why don't I bash Joe, well because he is Joe. Sure i have my doubts right now, but if we end up 7-9 this year, and 8-8 next year, and JG calls it quits, I will have not regretted him coming back at all. Why? I don't know, I just won't.

[[[ghost]]]

Because, when said Coach takes your team at one point in History, and makes them a Dynasty, you stick by him, even if he's doing a poor job.

You might not find violent fans, nice weather, or media spotlights in Washington, but you will always find Loyalty. You do something for us, we take care of you for life.

[gortiz]

And he's 100% correct. Anything negative that's ever said about the team is because the person is either a) an idiot or b) as an agenda against them.

Tell me one fan base that is different?

[darrell1106]

]']Because, when said Coach takes your team at one point in History, and makes them a Dynasty, you stick by him, even if he's doing a poor job.

You might not find violent fans, nice weather, or media spotlights in Washington, but you will always find Loyalty. You do something for us, we take care of you for life.
WOW. Is this how people really feel about JG?

[gortiz]

WOW. Is this how people really feel about JG?

I do.

[skins fan1010]

Redskins fans can handle criticism of their coach when it is deserved. For example, Spurrier was a horrific NFL head coach. He deserved criticism.

It is just that your analysis that Gibbs deserves criticism is asinine.

You cannot count the first year's record against him because he had little to do with putting that team together. In his second year, his team was one dropped interception away from playing in his sixth NFC championship game in twelve years. Last year he had to deal with several very important injuries...e.g Portis.

Criticizing Gibbs at this point is just asinine.

[Swift]

So when are you proven wrong? People continue to say it takes 4-5 years to turn a franchise around, etc., etc. The guy is what....65? It took Cowher like 12 years, but they were regularly competitive. The skins have nothing near competitiveness over the last 10 years, including since JGII arrived.

Nothing near competitiveness? Not sure if I agree with that. The 2005 Redskins were certainly competitive, and were one dropped pick away from the NFC Championship. And this year's Skins, while perhaps not looking like SB contenders at the moment, look good for 9-7.

Interestingly about the Steelers, if you look at the years surrounding their SB, they weren't constantly competitive. During Cowher's final 4 years, he only had a winning team half the time. The 2003 Steelers went 6-10, and the 2006 Steelers went 8-8. Yet in between, they won a SB.

Until Gibbs is done, we won't know how good he can make this team. And to be honest, can you really see any coach being significantly better than Gibbs?

[BAFGA]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.

Rant over.

:helmet:

I can take criticism of this team...in fact I criticize quite a bit. Mostly ownership but I criticize individuals if need be.

I think some who can't take it are a little thin skinned. You think Lions fans don't criticize their team? They want to buy the team to get rid of Matt Millen! You don't think Chargers fans don't criticize their team? THey have Norv Turner! That's enough to send anyone over the edge.

As far as Coach Gibbs goes, he's earned a lifetime free pass. He can leave whenever he wants to and he can stay as long as his contract allows. If the ownership still wants him, he can stay.

[Jumbo]

I love the sweeping generalizations that tend to be used in threads such as this. The grouping of a large number of posters under one label or action,(or both), when discussing the differences in these posters opinions. They crack me up. Mostly because they are, by and large, incorrect. I read a lot of posts before becoming a mod. Now I read a whole lot more of what you people write these days, (which could be grounds for some type of serious therapy down the road ;) ), and it appears several of you would be surprised at how few posters actually pull the "real fan" routine on here. Every bit as much as some would be surprised at how few posters from the other side actually believe they have all the answers. Actually, believe it or not, many would be amazed at how many don't get worked up over the media criticism that comes the Redskins way. Something that became abundantly clear in a recent thread or 2 about just that.

Welcome :)

It's a riot. :laugh:

[clietas]

A few, imo. JGII is not coaching/general managing like a HOF coach right now.

U mind actually naming them? of course Belichick but other than that lets hear your list. Im betting none of which are as good or as proven as Gibbs.


You're right, he wasn't around during Gibbs I. He's been around during Gibbs II in which his teams HAVEN'T DONE SQUAT!!! You can throw in the playoff year in which the DEFENSE was the ONLY reason we got there, but all in all if it was ANY other coach he would be getting tarred and feathered.

I guees U forgot that not only did CP set a rushing record for a team that had been around for over 70 years. But Moss and Cooley Both set franchise records as well.

[Oldfan]

]']Because, when said Coach takes your team at one point in History, and makes them a Dynasty, you stick by him, even if he's doing a poor job.

You might not find violent fans, nice weather, or media spotlights in Washington, but you will always find Loyalty. You do something for us, we take care of you for life.

If a coach keeps a veteran on the roster to the detriment of the team, it's not loyalty -- it's charity.

If an owner retains a coach to the detriment of the team, it's not loyalty -- it's charity.

As fans, when there's a conflict, we have to choose. I'm loyal to the team, not to players or coaches. But, if you feel differently, I understand your sentiment, but it's not my way.

[DMBAdict04]

I love Joe Gibbs, hes one of the most amazing guys I've ever met in my life. Hes clearly done a ton for this organization but I can't say I disagree with my colleague. I love the fact that us JMU kids stick together! J-M-U DUUUUKES!

Stoked about Clark getting up into the ring this weekend...proud moment for JMU.

[RenegadeTK]

criticism is one thing.... for example the clock management, lack of killer mentality, detrimental decision not to let saunders completely take over playcalling

what i cant take is attack like "gibbs is past his prime blah blah blah"..... if you look at the team/franchise gibbs inherited and see that hes built a talented team, has taken us to the playoffs, AND has started 2-1.... thats a hell of a job

[Hogisme]

dance 4 ... seeing dance and Montreal makes me think u should be far more worried about the Habs even though they squeaked a win out tonight...maybe u will jump on that wagon instead...I was at the game vs the Giants and the execution was dreadful , the playcalling on the whole was not...Opinion is great, but 3 games in ...Gibbs being attacked...little much

[thesubmittedone]

it's not the criticism necessarily, but the apparent glee that comes with a lot of the negatives from those making the comments.

it appears there are a host of national media that haven't liked Snyder all along and so that dripping sarcasm is somehow projected on to a Head Coach that wasn't around for the early years of excess with Deion and Bruce Smith and the nasty departures of Marty and Brad Johnson, etc.

there is NOTHING wrong with criticizing a team for finishing 5-11.

I certainly have made my share of observations about areas I think the team should have addressed in the past that came back to bite us.

at the same time we see a LOT of criticism of Gibbs for 2 plays against the Giants, negative comments about him being 'past it', etc. while at the same time we see the Saints at 0-3 looking like crap, the Bears at 1-3 looking like crap, the Rams at 0-4 looking like crap, and the Eagles at 1-3 looking like crap.............

and those coaches, Sean Payton, Lovie Smith and Andy Reid seem to be immune from what I would think is justifiable criticism for their teams' lackluster performances.

The Redskins, despite the poor second half against the Giants, are still 2-1.

Which is a better mark than any of these clubs.

What do I want to see?

As much scrutiny for Sean Payton and the Saints for coming out and getting blown off the field for 3 consecutive weeks with a poor defense, as for Gibbs for ONE HALF of poor play in 3 games :)

That would only seem fair to me :D

Yes! :applause:

[thesubmittedone]

So when are you proven wrong? People continue to say it takes 4-5 years to turn a franchise around, etc., etc. The guy is what....65? It took Cowher like 12 years, but they were regularly competitive. The skins have nothing near competitiveness over the last 10 years, including since JGII arrived.


Really? 10-6, second round of playoffs ring a bell? We clearly got talent here that, for the first time in a long time, can make us a team that can hang with the best. It's not about who Gibbs is... it's the obvious potential seen in this team. It doesn't take a fan to even see that. Just look at how quickly the mediots got on the bandwagon once we beat Miami and the Dolphins.

One bad half is all it took and every single negative nancy felt relieved that they were right in their petty little mind all along. They all came out of their friggin closet.

Honestly, I can't wait till we play well this Sunday and all of you go back to where you came from. I just can't. :)

[Big Number Joe Yates]

It's not that we can't take criticism, we just defend what is associated with ours. All fans do it. All people do it. ie. Take your mom... she may be a fat, stinky Cowboys troll like you, and you tell her with tears in your eyes every Thanksgiving, but if I call her that, you'll defend her fat, used chewing tobacco smelling Cowboys loving butt, all up and down the street. :laugh: (just joking... your mom smokes cigars.)

[D-Day]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.

Rant over.

:helmet:

Welcome to Extreme Skins, most ideas or views not of popular opinion are not received very well. Many times people will take one line pull it too the extreme simply because they can not or don't want to comprehend what was fully said. Then a bunch of other people will jump on and soon you have a thread 10 pages long of the same comment over and over again about that one originally misinterpreted or overexagerated statement. Meanwhile a good idea or thought or just the posibility of a good debate is completly ignored/lost. Most attempts to then get to the threads real topic are skipped over by the this thread sucks crowd, not that they are wrong because the overexagerated statement replies does truly make the thread suck.

This is what happens with about, I would say 85%, of the non favorable Redskins threads.

All this leads to redundant threads of popular themes as posters begin to stop posting threads with different or unpopular views because they don't want to take the verbal abuse for their thoughts. It is easier to keep it too themselves.

My theory from what I have seen and I feel your frustration. It gets tiring being called a "hater" or "apologist" for your view. Funny being called a hater for recognizing MB's faults after week 2 last year and now I am a Homer a apologist for wanting to see BL get a few passes thrown to him and assuming he just isn't sleeping in the lockerroom/blowing off extra work/etc when he is not on the field with the rest of the players ( I would have preferred to not call him a "douchebag" and maybe thought it could be a meeting or treatment - just maybe).

There is a reason this site has over 60k registered members and about 1000 or so it seems regular posters. It is very intimidating to read this forum and see all the labeling and reception of all things not pro skins.

JMHO

I just read the OP comments but if he is a troll the (insert middle finger smilie here)

[Rolling Thunder]

I agree with you 100 percent D-Day. Any criticism is met with "Negative Nancy" shouts while any positive comments are met with calls of homerism. Seems like a lot of people here need to get some perspective.:2cents:

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

I'm not really sure why some people decide to criticize everybody on the team and call themselves fans. All they do is complain about this team.

[hail2skins]

Criticizing Gibbs at this point is just asinine.

Let me ask you this: When Gibbs (or somebody, but I can't imagine it being done without Gibbs' consent) sent the FG unit out in the first half with 14 seconds still left on the clock and second down in the first half in Philly, you seriously weren't saying "WTF??"

[Blue Collar Skins]

it's not the criticism necessarily, but the apparent glee that comes with a lot of the negatives from those making the comments.

it appears there are a host of national media that haven't liked Snyder all along and so that dripping sarcasm is somehow projected on to a Head Coach that wasn't around for the early years of excess with Deion and Bruce Smith and the nasty departures of Marty and Brad Johnson, etc.

there is NOTHING wrong with criticizing a team for finishing 5-11.

I certainly have made my share of observations about areas I think the team should have addressed in the past that came back to bite us.

at the same time we see a LOT of criticism of Gibbs for 2 plays against the Giants, negative comments about him being 'past it', etc. while at the same time we see the Saints at 0-3 looking like crap, the Bears at 1-3 looking like crap, the Rams at 0-4 looking like crap, and the Eagles at 1-3 looking like crap.............

and those coaches, Sean Payton, Lovie Smith and Andy Reid seem to be immune from what I would think is justifiable criticism for their teams' lackluster performances.

The Redskins, despite the poor second half against the Giants, are still 2-1.

Which is a better mark than any of these clubs.

What do I want to see?

As much scrutiny for Sean Payton and the Saints for coming out and getting blown off the field for 3 consecutive weeks with a poor defense, as for Gibbs for ONE HALF of poor play in 3 games :)

That would only seem fair to me :DThank you Bulldog!

[CTaylor42]

So, what you're saying is if the Coach wasn't Gibbs. He would be fired for winning two out of three games.

[LD0506]

Some people just don't understand (or want to understand) that Coach Gibbs came back because the franchise was a wreck. It wasn't about him burnishing his HoF rep, it was concern for a team that he poured so much of himself into. He has had to rebuild the team from the ground up, reestablishing their identity as a contender and giving them the spirit they need to be successful. My heart bleeds for those that just want it all now and are going to hold their breath 'til they turn blue if they aren't in a Superbowl right away.

Do I want to see more? Sure, but I am also trying to see the broader picture of where we were for a decade or more and where we need to get to if we are going to return to the ranks of the winners.

[KingGibbs]

I saw a great sig on another 'skins site.

"Redskins aren't for sissies."

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

your 22! If you remembered anything from Gibbs first stint here I think You too would cut him some slack.


EDIT: Look at how long it took a guy like Cowher to win a SB, and now all anyone can talk about is how Cowher needs to replace so ans so. Its BS! Be patient U still have alot of football left to watch in your lifetime.


yeah, lets look at cowher.

1992: 11-5
1993: 9-7
1994: 12-4
1995: 11-5


those were his first 4 years with the team. he made the playoffs all 4 years. superbowl in his 4th year (lost). he made the playoffs his first 6 years with the club. he missed the playoffs 5 times from 1992-2006. please lets stop even attempting to compare him to joe gibbs second tenure, because gibbs' 2nd tenure has been pretty horrific, whereas cowhers whole time in pittsburgh was pretty great.

[MEANDWARF]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.

Rant over.

:helmet:








I' getting sick and tired of whining all the time no matter what happens. Couple weeks ago we defeated the Eagles on national t.v.. Came on this board and read how skins didn't do this and skins didn't do that just made sick. Can handle the criticism but what 24/7.
Maybe fans that has nothing good to say every once in a while shouldn't say "jack" at all.
:notworthy to the :logo: ! No matter What!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ntotoro]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

It's not that at all.

We're used to seeing pissing and moaning after a loss. Even if the team was 10-1, that second loss would get whining here the likes you have never seen.

It's the fact that you have to be a man and stick by them like a family member. As long as they're not doing something illegal or stupid (like airing dirty laundry in public), I'll stick by each and every one of these guys, including the Coaches. Otherwise, you die.

When you start fighting, arguing and whining, that's when the other team wins. I get so confused when guys who publicly air their laundry get praised. That's not mannish behavior. That's a child. Unfortunately, it seems a lot of the people around the same age as the players and younger have a rather warped idea of what it is to be a man, not a punk.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Some people just don't understand (or want to understand) that Coach Gibbs came back because the franchise was a wreck. It wasn't about him burnishing his HoF rep, it was concern for a team that he poured so much of himself into. He has had to rebuild the team from the ground up, reestablishing their identity as a contender and giving them the spirit they need to be successful. My heart bleeds for those that just want it all now and are going to hold their breath 'til they turn blue if they aren't in a Superbowl right away.

Do I want to see more? Sure, but I am also trying to see the broader picture of where we were for a decade or more and where we need to get to if we are going to return to the ranks of the winners.



if what you say is true, he would have spent more time attempting to build this team through the draft and younger players instead of giving picks away for players who contribute nothing. he also has made no attempt at solidifying a real GM for this team. its blatantly obvious that gibbs was supposed to come back and win us a superbowl in a short term period. teams that wanna build for the long haul dont treat the draft like its money for free agents.

[ntotoro]

its blatantly obvious that gibbs was supposed to come back and win us a superbowl in a short term period.

Then you have completely missed the point and it has almost been four years in the making.

They do want to win a Super Bowl. Every team wants to win a Super Bowl. The Coach also doesn't want to leave the team the same way as he did in '93. I'm sure that still sticks in his craw quite a bit. As bad as the team looks right now, think back about four years. It was much worse organizationally. I don't think people truly can grasp how badly off this team was and how it has changed in a relatively short time, going back to JKC's death and even shortly before that.

[Dance04]

dance 4 ... seeing dance and Montreal makes me think u should be far more worried about the Habs even though they squeaked a win out tonight...maybe u will jump on that wagon instead...I was at the game vs the Giants and the execution was dreadful , the playcalling on the whole was not...Opinion is great, but 3 games in ...Gibbs being attacked...little much

HAHAHAHAHAHA are you kidding me? I am worried. We got outplayed for half the game against a worse Carolina team. I will truly be surpirsed if we make the playoffs this year.

Also please do not tell me you are going to compare one game in the NHL, to 3 in the NFL. in hockey its 1/82, whilein football its 3/16. a much bigger proportion of games played

You see thats probably my problem. I support the habs, they haven't won a cup since 1993, and haven't even come CLOSE to contending again. Seems like every year we are "rebuilding" and always end up just out of the playoffs, or just squeak in.

Now i support the skins, who haven't won the superbowl since 1991, and have only one division title (I think) since then, and haven't even come close to challenging for the superbowl.

I guess all these years of supporting losing teams is making me more negative in my analysis of my teams. I'm just sick of the losing. It's time for some winning!

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Then you have completely missed the point and it has almost been four years in the making.

They do want to win a Super Bowl. Every team wants to win a Super Bowl. The Coach also doesn't want to leave the team the same way as he did in '93. I'm sure that still sticks in his craw quite a bit. As bad as the team looks right now, think back about four years. It was much worse organizationally. I don't think people truly can grasp how badly off this team was and how it has changed in a relatively short time, going back to JKC's death and even shortly before that.



so gibbs was supposed to "build the team" (which he hasnt attempted to do at all), get us ready to compete over a 2-3 year period, then reitre? get real.

he was brought back because weve been in such a sad state that snyder figured he'd be yet another quick fix. bring back the legend, he'll fix everything. nobody can get mad at joe gibbs, hes joe gibbs! hell, snyder cant even fire him because hes joe gibbs, and like the OP claimed, nobody will bring down the hammer on him.

you dont bring in a 60 whatever year old head coach to start from scratch and build a team. you bring in a 60 whatever year old when you want to win now.

[monkforhall]

Nothing wrong with criticising any coach, we criticised him when he was winning Superbowl's. But he has earned our support and our respect, he came back to help. I don't agree with Joe Gibbs but i'll support Joe Gibbs.

[Dance04]

So, what you're saying is if the Coach wasn't Gibbs. He would be fired for winning two out of three games.

its not just about this season!!! look at his whole tenure here. One playoff win with a team that MIRACULOUSLY won 5 straight to get us in. 2005 was more the abberation then the norm

[Dance04]

If a coach keeps a veteran on the roster to the detriment of the team, it's not loyalty -- it's charity.

If an owner retains a coach to the detriment of the team, it's not loyalty -- it's charity.

As fans, when there's a conflict, we have to choose. I'm loyal to the team, not to players or coaches. But, if you feel differently, I understand your sentiment, but it's not my way.

qft:applause::applause::applause::applause:

[JMU1330]

I'm not really sure why some people decide to criticize everybody on the team and call themselves fans. All they do is complain about this team.


This is EXACTLY what I was talking about in my post. Look at the Redskins' record over the last 15 years. Why wouldn't you criticize that? While I was watching the Mets lose for 12 straight years to your team (or blow the last 3 weeks this year), I was less of a fan by being critical? That is such a ridiculous sentiment. If something is wrong, I shouldn't have to just accept it. Being critical is NOT being less of a fan. It's calling out the shortcomings of a team in the hopes that if enough people get upset over it, things will change.

[.THEkid.]

I definitely am not out in left field. I'm not saying the team and coach don't catch flak because I know that they do. But everytime I see a thread with someone questioning something or even remotely hinting that it might be time for Gibbs to retire,or if someone like Brian Mitchell or someone on the radio talks negative (which he is inclined to do maybe more so than others but I find him to be on point about a lot of things, minus the Portis issue) then there are automatically like 10 posters going ape **** about "Don't you dare question Gibbs . . . you aren't even old enough to appreciate what Gibbs has done for this organization, etc." It's just really irritating because so many people act like Gibbs should have a lifetime contract because of something he did so well such a long time ago. I just think some people can be really absurd with their homerism and not admitting that critics and critical fans alike may be right sometimes.

for the past 2 weeks we've been giving GIBBS the criticism he gets. everyone was basically pissed at the play calling by him. so where do you see any ESers trying to defend him from the media? if anything we want the media to see what we see that way GIBBS can realize what he's doing.:2cents:

[ntotoro]

so gibbs was supposed to "build the team" (which he hasnt attempted to do at all), get us ready to compete over a 2-3 year period, then reitre? get real.

No. He said in January of '04, which I still have on my PVR, that he wouldn't rest until the team was back in shape. He hasn't given any indication otherwise. The team did need veterans and the majority of those guys have helped. The Defense was transformed in less than a year. It had one rough patch.

What you or anyone thinks the plan is, it's irrelevant. What matters is what they say. Coach Gibbs says he's here to get the team back in shape, even after he retires again as a Coach. You don't bring in Joe Gibbs as a "quick fix" or whatever.

[JMU1330]

for the past 2 weeks we've been giving GIBBS the criticism he gets. everyone was basically pissed at the play calling by him. so where do you see any ESers trying to defend him from the media? if anything we want the media to see what we see that way GIBBS can realize what he's doing.:2cents:


Any time there is a reference to LaCanfora (or the Post), it's because he has an "agenda" against the team. Certain people refuse to look at the content of what's posted/printed. They just dismiss it out of hand. That's just one of many, many, many examples.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

No. He said in January of '04, which I still have on my PVR, that he wouldn't rest until the team was back in shape. He hasn't given any indication otherwise. The team did need veterans and the majority of those guys have helped. The Defense was transformed in less than a year. It had one rough patch.

What you or anyone thinks the plan is, it's irrelevant. What matters is what they say. Coach Gibbs says he's here to get the team back in shape, even after he retires again as a Coach. You don't bring in Joe Gibbs as a "quick fix" or whatever.



dude, thats complete coach speak. "i wont rest until this team is back in shape". perfect PR answer to a hungry fan base thats dying for something to believe in, the legend of joe gibbs was the perfect answer. how do you not see that?

and yes, you do bring joe gibbs back as a quick fix. he was a proven superbowl winner 3 times over, was and still is a legend in this town, and snyder thought he could just let joe bring in whoever and gibbs would get us to the promiseland. you cannot build a team that way. were finally starting to get younger thank god, but it shouldnt have taken 3 years. and its still too early to tell what weve got.

[Taylor 36]

Most of do. Hell, most of criticize the team/coaches, etc. However, when you have reporting that is inaccurate and reeks of bias, then most fans have a problem.

[RedskinPryde]

I am just trying to figure out how it is possible that it seems the majority of Skins fans on this forum simply cannot handle any criticism of the team and especially the coach.

I understand that there are posters who simply do nothing but bash the team all day long and obviously have nothing good to say about the Redskins regardless of how they look. But I find it incredible that everytime someone criticizes Gibbs or insinuates that it may be time for Gibbs to retire gracefully if things don't get turned around quick, they are immediately attacked by a large amount of other ESers.

The simple fact is that if Gibbs weren't Gibbs 9 out of 10 Redskins fans would be going ballistic with how things have gone in the past 3-4 years. I love Gibbs and I certainly respect all he has done for the organization, but the results of his second tenure have been mediocre at best. He has brought some really good talent to the team (JC, Moss, Rocky, Landry, etc.) but has given away a ton of draft picks and had a ton of questionable moves as well. (Lloyd, DUCKETT, etc.) The NFL is about what someone has done recently, not what they did 15+ years ago. The fact that the team has had so many questionably called games during his tenure as well as his inability to adjust the offense to the new NFL, has left a lot to be desired.

People on this board are so quick to call 'media bias' and how they hate a certain commentator because they criticize the Redskins. These people need to ask themselves if maybe the criticism is just. Regardless, we don't need any media respect. All that matters is that the players respect the coaches and that they win games. I really hope Gibbs adjusts his gameplan this week and that we use a 3+ receiver set more often this week. I will be there cheering on the Redskins but I hate that people are constantly attacked for making valid points about the team and coaching staff.

Rant over.

:helmet:


Sadly thats how most of the people are around here bro.

But when the ones with intelligant conversations come along thats when you recognize why your here.

[Hogisme]

OMG...I would love to OUR team make the playoffs more then anyone, especially for Gibbs as he is a quality guy! I want a winner so effin bad I dream about it but the fact remains Gibbs 2 has made our franchise look better then it did when he came in...Guess the proof will be where we are when we host the Pukes from dallas...All things aside I pray we are in the mix for the playoffs!

[The_cavalierman]

My perspective: I love my Redskins, but I love the game of football more

I am a diehard Redskin fan, but even more important to me, I am a fan of the sport of football. I have also coached and played lower level football which allows me to appreciate each game for the violent, yet artistic ballet that it is. My love of football allows me to dislike the cowgirls but appreciate the talent and execution they are displaying right now. My love of the game allows me to watch the Redskins minus my burgundy and gold blinders. I feel free to criticize them and praise them for what I see on the field. I also feel free to make predictions about games based on my head and not my heart. My perspective of the Redskins comes with my perspective of all of the other teams in the NFL. As a football fan I understand that my perspective is not the only perspective so I can usually navigate these forums without getting into knock down drag out arguments.

The Coach: What Gibbs means to this City

Joe Gibbs is a great man and a great coach but his second stint as HC is obviously not going a well as the first. The fact is if he were not Joe Gibbs their would be a lot more criticism and speculation aimed at him. For those of us olde enough to remember life prior to Gibbs we have a special appreciation for the man that brought 3 lombardi trophies and respectability to Washington DC. The Redskins also united a city that was divided on political, racial, socio-economic and many other lines. Joe Gibbs and the Redskins united this area in ways that can never be duplicated. The Redskins mean hope to many people that goes far beyond football. So understand that when you criticize the only man that has united this city across all of the lines then you may as well be talking about someone's mother. Joe Gibbs has earned the right to fail here and still walk away as the greatest Redskin coach ever. Fans certainly should be entitled to criticize their coach but they should also understand what that means to other fans. Everything is a matter of perspective.


The Fans: We come in 31 flavors and then some

Once upon a time in a universe far, far away I was a military policeman talking to a bunch of congressional reps that were touring a base in Virginia. They were shocked to find out that military posts have just as much crime as civilian towns. My response was the military is a direct reflection of the society which it serves because that is where our members come from. The same principle applies to the Redskins and our fan base. The same people you don't like in your everyday life you may not like as Skins fans. The guy that is so positive he makes you sick is the same guy posting here. The Lady that makes you want to leave the room because she is so negative is the same lady posting here. We are diverse body of fans and their will never be 100% harmony here or anywhere else, but as long as we acknowledge this fact it might keep people from going after each other when we all share a common bond...We love our team.

:2cents:

[Shadowplay]

If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle. Gibbs is Gibbs. Gibbs is God.

I can play the if game too. I'm not saying that he deserves a lifetime contract, but if Spurrier or Marty had three Lombardis (the only three for this franchise), they would have been given more than three years and three games too.

I've done my share of bashing the personell moves and the "splitting carries." But coach signed a five year deal when he came back and has insisted that he will honor that. Shouldn't the team do the same for a man of his stature?


There is no God.

This movie isn't over yet. But it's clear that a lot of fans simply had too high of expectations when the man came back here. But who's fault is that? Nobody on the team, certainly not the owner or the coach himself tried to dissuade that.

I can deal with Gibbs the coach. Does he make mistakes, yeah he does. The simple fact that he's getting owned in the second half of football games is a testament to his stubborn ways. Being stubborn isn't always bad but in this case the proof is in the pudding. What I have a problem with is a guy who spent ten years or so out of football running the entire football operation. We've spent how many freaking millions on wide receivers in the past two years and we're still trying to find somebody else to step up to the plate. The draft has got to be more of a priority for this team. Anyone who says differently hasn't been watching enough football. There are some encouraging signs so let's hope the organization is starting to see this.

[ntotoro]

dude, thats complete coach speak. "i wont rest until this team is back in shape". perfect PR answer to a hungry fan base thats dying for something to believe in, the legend of joe gibbs was the perfect answer. how do you not see that?

You think he's lying? If that's the case, shows us something that proves or even intimates he's only here as a quick fix until the next stop. I'm not talking JLC speculation or hot air coming out his ass, I mean something that has actually come to fruition.

The team was the most valuable in the league. Coach Gibbs didn't have to return for marketing. He surely didn't need the money. He said he wanted to prove to himself and his family he was capable. The man's contract stipulates he'll be around in a Front Office capacity after he leaves the field. This isn't speculation. This is what he says.

He's a good man and worth defending, especially when he hasn't done anything remotely resembling giving up. It's a bunch of people who think is to become the Patriots overnight, who fail to realize 30 other teams say the same stuff we do, who think we're a failure because we haven't achieved that yet. I didn't want to believe it, but it's looking more and more like a "I want it now, now, now" generational thing.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

just a little perspective for everybody

norv turner 1994-2000: 49-59-1 = 45% winning percentage (44.9 to be exact)

steve spurrier 2002-2003: 12-20 = 38% winning percentage (37.5 to be exact)

joe gibbs 2004-2007 (this year included): 23-28 = 45% winning percentage (45.0 to be exact)


make of this what you will, but everybody loathes turner and spurrier, and gibbs hasnt done much better. hes still got time, but these are the current facts.

[tizzod]

One bad half is all it took and every single negative nancy felt relieved that they were right in their petty little mind all along. They all came out of their friggin closet.

Honestly, I can't wait till we play well this Sunday and all of you go back to where you came from. I just can't. :)

No, what they will all do is come out and thump their chests and start shouting from the rooftops about how "the Skins are back, baby! I LOVE THIS TEAM!"

It's disgusting.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You think he's lying? If that's the case, shows us something that proves or even intimates he's only here as a quick fix until the next stop. I'm not talking JLC speculation or hot air coming out his ass, I mean something that has actually come to fruition.

The team was the most valuable in the league. Coach Gibbs didn't have to return for marketing. He surely didn't need the money. He said he wanted to prove to himself and his family he was capable. The man's contract stipulates he'll be around in a Front Office capacity after he leaves the field. This isn't speculation. This is what he says.

He's a good man and worth defending, especially when he hasn't done anything remotely resembling giving up. It's a bunch of people who think is to become the Patriots overnight, who fail to realize 30 other teams say the same stuff we do, who think we're a failure because we haven't achieved that yet. I didn't want to believe it, but it's looking more and more like a "I want it now, now, now" generational thing.



hes not "lying", thats going too far. hes saying the right thing. hes saying "i wanna win, i wont rest until we win". if you took that literally, that means he will not sleep until we win. im assuming he goes to bed every night haha.

and proof he wanted a quick fix? simple. he ignored the draft. he just brought in FA.

griffin
springs
daniels
salavea
washington
harris
brunell
portis
thrash

that is an ENORMOUS group of FA brought in, all starters if i remember correctly. he decided to make a frankenstein team instead of starting from scratch. when youre coming off of 5-11, its time to start fresh. you draft players, you dont bring him close to 10 free agent starters and make a team like that, its just dumb. you know as well as i do, weve drafted the least amount of players out of any NFL team over the past 7 years if im not mistaken, 4 of them are under gibbs. were paying the price for ignoring the draft. gibbs decided to bring in vets to WIN NOW. you dont bring in guys like that to build around. you build around youth, not aging free agents. everyone in that list i made will most likely be gone by next year, sans portis (because hes young). gibbs decided to take a shot with older guys, it failed, and now were back to square one.


why did he return? he loves football obviously and wanted to coach again. he can do whatever he wants, hes a legend, who would deny him? especially not money man danny, who knows that bringing back a legend would rejuvenate a disappointed fan base. great PR move by him.

and of course hes a good man, i dont think youll find me saying hes a bad man in any post history of mine. but hes currently not getting it done. and you cant turn into the pats over night. however, with good drafting (which we ignored) it doesnt take long. it definitely shouldnt take 4 years, and we still look to be far from dominating.

[ntotoro]

The best way to address several of those positions was through Free Agency. There is really no way in this league to start from scratch. Get some Free Agents in positions of need, then you spend the next couple years getting ready for the future. Every single one of those players has a draft pick chosen since their arrival to either supplement or supplant them, except at WR or RB.

No team in the NFL gets totally scuttled, then rebuilt. It's impossible to expect any Coach to do that and your expectations are pretty faulty if you think Gibbs would have done that. Teams are good, teams are bad. Only one team so far has been able to truly maintain a high level of success and dominance over the last several years that no one else has reached.

[dfbovey]

It takes time to build a winner and bring in your systems...year 4 and 5 are the times where judgement is passed...he inherited a draft mess, losing attitudes, and poor players. Wait till the damn year is over and quit pretending you know what you are talking about by posting such a thread. It doesn't take balls to post such a thread here but a little brains would be freaking astounding...we have played 3 games!!!!!!!!!!!! we are 2 and 1 and everybody on this Board would be ecstatic before the year started if we could say that...Try not sounding like you know more then Joe Gibbs cause it sounds absolutely foolish!!! Hail to All of the Skins!!! Including the coaching staff!

Gibbs has made plenty of mistakes and has contributed to the failures of this team in his own way since he's been back.

Gibbs isn't untouchable and it doesn't take someone being more knowledgable than him to point out glaring flaws and mistakes he's made over the past 4 years. He's only had one winning season and the franchise continues to make the same mistakes with him supposedly in control.

Is there a difference between this team under Gibbs II and this team under Norv? Same fat paychecks for underperforming high paid free agents that flop. We take large cap hits each year to cut at least one of these players. We trade away draft picks for Lloyd and Duckett... how are these moves any different that what happened in 2000? What's actually changed?

The only thing that's changed is that people have bought into Gibbs thinking he's still the same coach he was in 1991. He's NOT! And he probably won't be.

[Playmaker89]

:doh: ...sigh...

[Heisenberg]

Pretty much what I was trying to say has been confirmed from some of the responses to this post. I have been called everything from a lousy fan to a Giants fan to an idiot. I wasn't trying to say that I believe Gibbs should be let go or retire, but even if the Skins go 15-1 . . . that won't make the Gibbs\team criticism from the early season any less relevant. At the time it was blatantly obvious that their have been many suspect calls\moves in the past few years. The fact that you cannot be a 'good fan' and discuss some of these points without being bashed by some of the people on this board is pretty pathetic.


And yes, Gary Clark getting into the Ring on Sunday will be great for JMU and the Skins.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The best way to address several of those positions was through Free Agency. There is really no way in this league to start from scratch. Get some Free Agents in positions of need, then you spend the next couple years getting ready for the future. Every single one of those players has a draft pick chosen since their arrival to either supplement or supplant them, except at WR or RB.

No team in the NFL gets totally scuttled, then rebuilt. It's impossible to expect any Coach to do that and your expectations are pretty faulty if you think Gibbs would have done that. Teams are good, teams are bad. Only one team so far has been able to truly maintain a high level of success and dominance over the last several years that no one else has reached.



you dont address issues with a team by drafting 10 friggin starters. it becomes a patchwork frankenstein team. theres no team chemistry, its just a bunch of mercenaries here for a paycheck. none of those guys were "born" redskins. for the past three years until this year, our entire starting defense contained maybe 1-2 drafted starters at all times. taylor and rogers were the only ones. now landry, monty, and landry are there, so were finally starting to build, but weve needed more picks and weve decided to get rid of them. you know the list so i wont name all the squandered picks weve used, but it hurts to think about. we need 3 solid FULL drafts of players to build this team, and we just never have it. again, your idea that you cant just rebuild is wrong. the bears built an entire defense of drafted players sans maybe one or two guys in a few years and their D is great. the pats and ravens have a mostly drafted defense as well, mostly in a short period.

we just ignore the draft and were paying for it, plain and simple. weve harped on this forever. but you claiming that gibbs was trying to build for the future by bringing in an enormous amount of FAs is just wrong. he was trying to go for the now. bring in experienced players with an experienced coach, and go for the SB. you cannot do that in todays NFL.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Gibbs has made plenty of mistakes and has contributed to the failures of this team in his own way since he's been back.

Gibbs isn't untouchable and it doesn't take someone being more knowledgable than him to point out glaring flaws and mistakes he's made over the past 4 years. He's only had one winning season and the franchise continues to make the same mistakes with him supposedly in control.

Is there a difference between this team under Gibbs II and this team under Norv? Same fat paychecks for underperforming high paid free agents that flop. We take large cap hits each year to cut at least one of these players. We trade away draft picks for Lloyd and Duckett... how are these moves any different that what happened in 2000? What's actually changed?

The only thing that's changed is that people have bought into Gibbs thinking he's still the same coach he was in 1991. He's NOT! And he probably won't be.


dead on. i dont see anybody making the same excuses for norv turner that they do for gibbs II. its always "we had injuries" or "we needed a gel year" or "he said he'll make this team win and i trust him". all a bunch of nonsense that detracts from the fact that currently, he is a failure.

[SkinsNumberOne]

It's great when someone generalizes - like "Why can't Redskin fans take criticism?" and then meanwhile a bunch of others say "Yeah, why not?! I agree!" and their handles all imply that they're Redskin fans. Classic.

[Heisenberg]

It's great when someone generalizes - like "Why can't Redskin fans take criticism?" and then meanwhile a bunch of others say "Yeah, why not?! I agree!" and their handles all imply that they're Redskin fans. Classic.


Fine, I'll edit the post title to say "Why can't a LARGE PORTION of Redskins fans take criticism of their team/coach?"

:rolleyes:

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Fine, I'll edit the post title to say "Why can't a LARGE PORTION of Redskins fans take criticism of their team/coach?"

:rolleyes:



youve been dead on this whole thread dude, dont sweat it. a lot of people just cannot handle the negativity. we can go 5-11 and theres always a silver lining. joe gibbs could take this team 0-16, and there would still be people giving him a free pass because of what he did 2 decades ago. thats just the way it is.

*cue tupac version*

[skinsn24]

No, what they will all do is come out and thump their chests and start shouting from the rooftops about how "the Skins are back, baby! I LOVE THIS TEAM!"

It's disgusting.

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight, its disgusting to be happy after a win, but its also bad to be negative after a loss or negative after says 4 years of only winning 45% or say almost 15 years of straight losses.

I would think that it is best to view the team for what they are, be happy after a good game/season and be positive. Be mad and negative after a bad game/season, no?

[RODAN1054]

youve been dead on this whole thread dude, dont sweat it. a lot of people just cannot handle the negativity. we can go 5-11 and theres always a silver lining. joe gibbs could take this team 0-16, and there would still be people giving him a free pass because of what he did 2 decades ago. thats just the way it is.

*cue tupac version* Dosen't matter if you bash Gibbs or not, Owner is going to do what he wants to do . I wouldn't be surprised if he ask Gibbs to extend his contract. The thing is we need to stop bickering and exept our coach, like the song says, love the one your with

[skinsn24]

It's great when someone generalizes - like "Why can't Redskin fans take criticism?" and then meanwhile a bunch of others say "Yeah, why not?! I agree!" and their handles all imply that they're Redskin fans. Classic.

I dont get this myth that one is not allowed to critisize something he/she loves. I dont get this myth that one is not allowed to want something they love to improve.
I dont get this myth that one has to be blindly postive to something they love.
As long as the love is still there and the love is the underlying reason for the critisizim then it is more than justified.

IF someone has a kid who get horrible grades, i would hope to god they try to figure out why and get the kid on track.

If you dog pees in your house i would hope you tell him bad boy.

If your favorite restuarant serves you horrible food, i would hope you send it back and ask they make it better.

If you favorite football team looks like dung over and over again, i would hope you would want them to get better.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Dosen't matter if you bash Gibbs or not, Owner is going to do what he wants to do . I wouldn't be surprised if he ask Gibbs to extend his contract. The thing is we need to stop bickering and exept our coach, like the song says, love the one your with


awesome, lets just accept the sucking some more because thats just how it is. we'll be exactly what dan snyder wants: zombie fans who dont care one way or another as long as were funneling money into the pot.

:doh:

[thelarkascend1ng]

youve been dead on this whole thread dude, dont sweat it. a lot of people just cannot handle the negativity. we can go 5-11 and theres always a silver lining. joe gibbs could take this team 0-16, and there would still be people giving him a free pass because of what he did 2 decades ago. thats just the way it is.

*cue tupac version*

i don't think so. i thought Om's latest writing put it well. this season is a big big deal because it's when we need to be the winning team everyone hoped we would be. i don't know if gibbs could be here as long as he wanted to. i don't know man, after so many awful years of spurrier and norv (i like marty honestly) it's just nice to see a team that shows a lot of heart and has given us some great memories and a playoff win. 5-11 doesn't cut it though.

[skinsn24]

\.

What you or anyone thinks the plan is, it's irrelevant. What matters is what they say. Coach Gibbs says he's here to get the team back in shape, even after he retires again as a Coach. You don't bring in Joe Gibbs as a "quick fix" or whatever.

100% incorrect. What they say has nothing to do with what the plan is or what is working/not working.

Actions speak louder than words. Come on, seriously, is what they say that matters? Please.

[SkinsNumberOne]

I dont get this myth that one is not allowed to critisize something he/she loves. I dont get this myth that one is not allowed to want something they love to improve.
I dont get this myth that one has to be blindly postive to something they love.
As long as the love is still there and the love is the underlying reason for the critisizim then it is more than justified.

IF someone has a kid who get horrible grades, i would hope to god they try to figure out why and get the kid on track.

If you dog pees in your house i would hope you tell him bad boy.

If your favorite restuarant serves you horrible food, i would hope you send it back and ask they make it better.

If you favorite football team looks like dung over and over again, i would hope you would want them to get better.

My point was that if a bunch of Redskin fans agree that "Redskin fans can't take criticism" it starts to sound like a self-disproving statement. Irony.

That was what was classic about it.

[skinsn24]

i don't think so. i thought Om's latest writing put it well. this season is a big big deal because it's when we need to be the winning team everyone hoped we would be. i don't know if gibbs could be here as long as he wanted to. i don't know man, after so many awful years of spurrier and norv (i like marty honestly) it's just nice to see a team that shows a lot of heart and has given us some great memories and a playoff win. 5-11 doesn't cut it though.

If you read BLCs post, he gave the winning percentage under all 3 coaches. Norv and Gibbs II have the same percentage with spurrior just behind.

[skinsn24]

Honestly, I can't wait till we play well this Sunday and all of you go back to where you came from. I just can't. :)

No idea what this statement means. Its pretty simple, play well and there wont be critisism, play bad or be bad for extended periods of time and there will be critisism.

Why celebrate bad play? It doesnt make sense.
Celebrating a win, now that makes sense.

Why that is hard to understand is beyond me.

[RODAN1054]

awesome, lets just accept the sucking some more because thats just how it is. we'll be exactly what dan snyder wants: zombie fans who dont care one way or another as long as were funneling money into the pot.

:doh: didn't say that ,what I said was WHAT CAN WE DO, NOTHING because were not the owner and he has the final say and we have to exept it. like if you have a job if you dont like it you quit, if you dont like the skins organization than jump off our bandwagon

[skinsn24]

I'm not really sure why some people decide to criticize everybody on the team and call themselves fans. All they do is complain about this team.


Shouldnt a fan want his team do well, shouldnt a fan be pissed when they do not?

I have said it before but i will say it again.

When the cardinals lose, go 2-14, or play like crap, i dont care at all. I dont get upset, i dont get mad, i dont complain. You know why? because i am not a fan of that team. It doesnt pain me to see them lose.

However, when the skins lose, got 5-11, or blow a 14 point lead, i get pissed. I want to know why it happened, how it happened, and how it is going to be fixed. You know why? Because I AM A FAN.

What do you think about that?

[tizzod]

Wait wait wait, let me get this straight, its disgusting to be happy after a win, but its also bad to be negative after a loss or negative after says 4 years of only winning 45% or say almost 15 years of straight losses.

I would think that it is best to view the team for what they are, be happy after a good game/season and be positive. Be mad and negative after a bad game/season, no?

Absolutely correct. What I am referring to are the people who say "we suck, the season's over, another wasted season, Gibbs sucks, the FO office sucks, I hate this team, we will never be any good...." blah blah blah, but when we start winning it becomes "we're great! playoffs baby, here we come! Gibbs is great! I love this team!" blah blah blah.

You can't write the whole team and season off one week and then come back after a win and act like you never said those things you said before and act like the team's biggest cheerleader. It's called being a "fairweather fan" and it's normally frowned upon.

If you are a fan and you truly love the team, you won't say stupid crap like "I'm never watching again, as long as *insert player and/or coach* is still here we will never be any good, I hate everything about this team..." etc. You need to be a little more even-keeled about the whole thing. Apart from the fact that you embarrass yourself and look like an ass when you go overboard whining and crying about everything and then the next week come back ready to blow everyone on the team.

But whatever. That's just my feeling. It gets on my nerves and it's happening way too much around here.

[skinsn24]

didn't say that ,what I said was WHAT CAN WE DO, NOTHING because were not the owner and he has the final say and we have to exept it. like if you have a job if you dont like it you quit, if you dont like the skins organization than jump off our bandwagon

See maybe you dont understand what it is like to be a fan. Now i know that you are, so dont take it the wrong way.

But when I am a fan of a team, I LOVE that team. Just like i love a pet or parent or child. I am obessed with the team. It is not emotionally possible to give up or jump off the bandwagon.

Much like when a pet pees in my house, i cant just say eff you dog, im done. It just cant happen.

[skinsn24]

Absolutely correct. What I am referring to are the people who say "we suck, the season's over, another wasted season, Gibbs sucks, the FO office sucks, I hate this team, we will never be any good...." blah blah blah, but when we start winning it becomes "we're great! playoffs baby, here we come! Gibbs is great! I love this team!" blah blah blah.

You can't write the whole team and season off one week and then come back after a win and act like you never said those things you said before and act like the team's biggest cheerleader. It's called being a "fairweather fan" and it's normally frowned upon.

If you are a fan and you truly love the team, you won't say stupid crap like "I'm never watching again, as long as *insert player and/or coach* is still here we will never be any good, I hate everything about this team..." etc. You need to be a little more even-keeled about the whole thing. Apart from the fact that you embarrass yourself and look like an ass when you go overboard whining and crying about everything and then the next week come back ready to blow everyone on the team.

But whatever. That's just my feeling. It gets on my nerves and it's happening way too much around here.

While i agree there are some knee jerk comments, they are not the majority of the "negative" people here. Most of us, like myself, are just sick of losing and we write long thought out posts.

Now i agree you can't write off the season after 1 game or 3 weeks. But why is it ok to say "playoffs" or "6-0" after starting of 2-0??

It would seem to me that that "optimistic side" is just as incorrect, just as knee jerk, and just as wrong in the way to view a team.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

i don't think so. i thought Om's latest writing put it well. this season is a big big deal because it's when we need to be the winning team everyone hoped we would be. i don't know if gibbs could be here as long as he wanted to. i don't know man, after so many awful years of spurrier and norv (i like marty honestly) it's just nice to see a team that shows a lot of heart and has given us some great memories and a playoff win. 5-11 doesn't cut it though.


norvs winning percentage is the same as gibbs, pretty much identical. yet everybody hates norv and writes joke posts about him and how terrible he is, and how hes so this and that, yet him and gibbs have the exact same winning percentage. so it was so awful under norv turner, but gibbs can produce the same thing and somehow it isnt awful?

and the whole playing with heart is pointless. i dont wanna see us play with heart and go 5-11, thats meaningless. and none of us have a clue whether these guys play with heart, its such a subjective statement.

all we have under gibbs was one great run at the end of 05, a playoff win, and two cool wins over dallas. in 3 years, thats not enough to cut it.


by the way, we know each other. youre a sick guitarist and you should be playing some metal! i played bass for mod flanders conspiracy.

*cue its a small world afterall*

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

didn't say that ,what I said was WHAT CAN WE DO, NOTHING because were not the owner and he has the final say and we have to exept it. like if you have a job if you dont like it you quit, if you dont like the skins organization than jump off our bandwagon


we can do nothing at all except watch. but im going to complain when i disagree with something. and im going to cheer when we make great moves. hopefully the cheers will someday outweight the complaints. so far, the complaints are winning the race.

[Siven]

your 22! If you remembered anything from Gibbs first stint here I think You too would cut him some slack.


EDIT: Look at how long it took a guy like Cowher to win a SB, and now all anyone can talk about is how Cowher needs to replace so ans so. Its BS! Be patient U still have alot of football left to watch in your lifetime.

Cowher had winning teams I believe 13/15 years. Gibbs 2 has had one winning season out of 3 full and is currently 2 and 1.

Big difference.

I wasn't alive when Gibbs was winning, but I am well aware of Joe Gibbs accomplishments in his first stint.

However, RIGHT NOW, with THIS TEAM, none of what he did in the past matters.

[RODAN1054]

See maybe you dont understand what it is like to be a fan. Now i know that you are, so dont take it the wrong way.

But when I am a fan of a team, I LOVE that team. Just like i love a pet or parent or child. I am obessed with the team. It is not emotionally possible to give up or jump off the bandwagon.

Much like when a pet pees in my house, i cant just say eff you dog, im done. It just cant happen. Neither can I,I have been watching my Redskins since the George Allen days and have never jumped off Skins bandwagon, but what Iwill say id I would have someone jump than to bash the only coach that won us superbowls. It saddens me more to read the things I have read in this website than it does for the Cowgirls to beAT US.

[ntotoro]

100% incorrect. What they say has nothing to do with what the plan is or what is working/not working.

Actions speak louder than words. Come on, seriously, is what they say that matters? Please.

Is it working? Debatable. The on-field performance has been up and down, but the FO was absolutely festering before '04. You have to fix your house first. Regardless what anyone thinks of Vinny, the organization as a whole was in much, much worse shape before '04, probably more than people realize.

What they say is what they intend. Whether it's working on this date is a different discussion. I was responding to the question of rebuilding and what they said they're intentions were, not how well the execution had been.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Neither can I,I have been watching my Redskins since the George Allen days and have never jumped off Skins bandwagon, but what Iwill say id I would have someone jump than to bash the only coach that won us superbowls. It saddens me more to read the things I have read in this website than it does for the Cowgirls to beAT US.


please live in the now. gibbs' accomplishments 20 years ago have no bearing on todays game.

[skinsn24]

Neither can I,I have been watching my Redskins since the George Allen days and have never jumped off Skins bandwagon, but what Iwill say id I would have someone jump than to bash the only coach that won us superbowls. It saddens me more to read the things I have read in this website than it does for the Cowgirls to beAT US.

See you have to remove Gibb I from Gibbs II. They are totally different. It isnt like Gibbs stayed the whole way though. He has had 2 different tenures and they most be viewed apart.

There is nothing in common about the 2 except for the name Gibbs. Different Owner, different power strcuture, different players, no gm, different players on the team and in league, different IR rules, different cap rules, different opposing coaches, different DC, Gibbs is no longer the OC, and i guess buges is back though.

All those differences mean they must be evaluated sperately.

One of the things Gibbs was best at was abusing the IR to stack a roster and hold talent. That can no longer be done.

[skinsn24]

Is it working? Debatable. The on-field performance has been up and down, but the FO was absolutely festering before '04. You have to fix your house first. Regardless what anyone thinks of Vinny, the organization as a whole was in much, much worse shape before '04, probably more than people realize.

What they say is what they intend. Whether it's working on this date is a different discussion. I was responding to the question of rebuilding and what they said they're intentions were, not how well the execution had been.

I guess i am just a little confused on what you mean here because Gibbs loves to say "this guy is super smart" or "brandon is going to be a big player for us"

But then Brandon gets burried at the bottom of the chart, a guy like Arch gets benched and run out of town. But while all this is going on, Gibbs acts like it was the plan all along. It as the plan to have Lloyd in year 2 become a 4th/5th wr? I doubt it.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Is it working? Debatable. The on-field performance has been up and down, but the FO was absolutely festering before '04. You have to fix your house first. Regardless what anyone thinks of Vinny, the organization as a whole was in much, much worse shape before '04, probably more than people realize.

What they say is what they intend. Whether it's working on this date is a different discussion. I was responding to the question of rebuilding and what they said they're intentions were, not how well the execution had been.


of course theyre going to say "were rebuilding", its the right thing to say. theyre not gonna come out and say "we are gonna buy a bunch of expereinced vets in an attempt to quickly win a superbowl", which is what they did.

again, actions > words.

they said they wanted to rebuild

what the did was far from it.

[ntotoro]

I guess i am just a little confused on what you mean here because Gibbs loves to say "this guy is super smart" or "brandon is going to be a big player for us"

But then Brandon gets burried at the bottom of the chart, a guy like Arch gets benched and run out of town. But while all this is going on, Gibbs acts like it was the plan all along. It as the plan to have Lloyd in year 2 become a 4th/5th wr? I doubt it.

Because Joe Gibbs doesn't publicly throw people under the bus. How hard is that to understand?

Regardless, I'm talking about what he holds himself to doing, in terms of accomplishments. Complementing a player and talking about expectations and wishes for his tenure of duty are two different things. When he feels he needs to take responsibility for something going awry, he has done so publicly. He'll be the first to blame himself, but what you'll never see him do is blame another person for something, even if it's the case.

[Heisenberg]

I am glad to at least see this thread has stimulated some debate and I think a lot of good points have been made. I agree with the people who say Gibbs I must be seperated from Gibbs II. Even if the Redskins win the Super Bowl under Gibbs II that does not make the criticism RIGHT NOW unwarranted. Bringing in so many free agents that haven't panned out, bringing in an offensive coordinator with proven success yet having a team that obviously isn't running that proven offense at times, having a winning % identical to Norv so far in his second tenure are all valid points. Sports are about what someone has done for me now. Using the logic that some of these posters have, we should still have some of the old players suited up because of what they meant to the Redskins teams of the past. Criticizing the team you love when there are obvious problems and continuing unsettling trends does not make you even less of a fan, in fact I think it makes you an even better informed fan and proves that you aren't some blind homer.

:helmet:

[ntotoro]

of course theyre going to say "were rebuilding", its the right thing to say. theyre not gonna come out and say "we are gonna buy a bunch of expereinced vets in an attempt to quickly win a superbowl", which is what they did.

again, actions > words.

they said they wanted to rebuild

what the did was far from it.

No one ever said the team was rebuilding, not even Coach Gibbs. They got vets in positions they needed. In the last few years, they have drafted people who will supplant those guys for the future. How anyone can't see pieces being put into place for both the present and the future is mind-boggling. No one scuttles an entire team in the NFL these days. It's just not done by anyone.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

No one ever said the team was rebuilding, not even Coach Gibbs. They got vets in positions they needed. In the last few years, they have drafted people who will supplant those guys for the future. How anyone can't see pieces being put into place for both the present and the future is mind-boggling. No one scuttles an entire team in the NFL these days. It's just not done by anyone.


when you go 8-8, 7-9, 5-11: its time for a rebuild.

weve needed full drafts. 04 we had like 4 picks? 2 of them turned out great, but you need more than 2 starters from a draft, you need depth and youth that could potentially turn into something better. 05 we had two first rounders and absolute zero with our other picks. who picks 2 fullbacks in a draft? 06 we gave all our draft picks away again, didnt even start the one good pick we had, and were relying on 5th and 6th round picks to be anchors at our dline. not smart.

where are the 2nd rounders? 3rd rounders? 4th rounders? shocking that when we actually pick in those rounds, we usually hit. we just seem to think that duckett and lloyd and brunell and even kendall are more important than building for the future. we need full drafts, and we dont even have one this year.

[ashsra]

I don't mind people calling out the coach, but why do we have to be so reactionary all the time? A couple weeks ago everyone's talking Super Bowl and now after 1 loss everyone wants Gibbs to retire. And yes I do feel like the coaching staff lost us the game against the Giants. We need to realize though that it's still only 1 loss, and we should give credit to Gibbs for winning the first 2 games. I really feel if we end up performing badly this year and missing the playoffs, Gibbs will step down and give someone else a shot. Let's just try and keep a level head and give this team a chance to improve. And I'm tired of the argument that if he hadn't won 3 Super Bowls he'd already be gone. The fact is Gibbs has done a lot for DC, and for that reason should be given a longer leash than a regular Joe.

[tizzod]

While i agree there are some knee jerk comments, they are not the majority of the "negative" people here. Most of us, like myself, are just sick of losing and we write long thought out posts.

Now i agree you can't write off the season after 1 game or 3 weeks. But why is it ok to say "playoffs" or "6-0" after starting of 2-0??

It would seem to me that that "optimistic side" is just as incorrect, just as knee jerk, and just as wrong in the way to view a team.

I can see your point. I think it's better to not find yourself at either extreme, if you ask me. But again, that's just me.

My issue is more with the knee-jerk stupidity as well.

[Dance04]

Too many people are letting Gibbs 1 change their perception of Gibbs 2.

Gibbs 1 is a HOF coach, one of the most respected men in all of football and will forever be an icon in Washington DC.

[ntotoro]

They have made mistakes with trading away so many picks. I won't deny that and will be far from the last to say that's a mistake. They just don't go hand-in-hand, though. Most of those, you could see some reason why they did what they did. Whether they worked (Kendall) or failed miserably (Lloyd, Archuletta), the team did something they thought they needed to do. The mistake was losing Clark, but that ultimately led to drafting Landry, so there is one silver lining.

I guarantee they'll take O-Line next year. It has been ignored too long, in terms of replacing guys for the future. We can't exactly expect to become dominant overnight. The organization was trash from within since JKC's death. It won't heal overnight.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

They have made mistakes with trading away so many picks. I won't deny that and will be far from the last to say that's a mistake. They just don't go hand-in-hand, though. Most of those, you could see some reason why they did what they did. Whether they worked (Kendall) or failed miserably (Lloyd, Archuletta), the team did something they thought they needed to do. The mistake was losing Clark, but that ultimately led to drafting Landry, so there is one silver lining.

I guarantee they'll take O-Line next year. It has been ignored too long, in terms of replacing guys for the future. We can't exactly expect to become dominant overnight. The organization was trash from within since JKC's death. It won't heal overnight.



dude, JKC died in 1997? how long does it take a franchise to get its act together. really dude, you keep acting like all of this happened a year ago and were healing. this stuff has been ongoing for a decade. weve ignored quality Oline/Dline help for years. weve ignored the draft for quite sometime. weve brought in FA failures over and over and over. for some reason, we just will not learn from our mistakes. i dont know what its going to take for this team to change its philosophy, maybe we never will.

[SkinsFanAnt]

Its the Superhomers. Seriously. I've found that most fans fit into a few of these categories with the Extreme ones being on the polar ends.

Superhomer - Homer - Balanced - Critical - Basher

And then there are indifferent fans but those aren't really fans.
It's something that comes with the territory of having a forum for fans. We have to live with it either way. I personally fit in the Critical side because I remember the good ol' days and just want the team to play well, whether we make the playoffs or not...whether we win the SB or not. We're not going to win the SB every year, but I can't stand when we blow it like against the Giants or Falcons from last year. But its always the Superhomers who attack other fans...accusing us of not being fans. That is bull****. I'm glad you brought it up.

[dfbovey]

dude, JKC died in 1997? how long does it take a franchise to get its act together. really dude, you keep acting like all of this happened a year ago and were healing. this stuff has been ongoing for a decade. weve ignored quality Oline/Dline help for years. weve ignored the draft for quite sometime. weve brought in FA failures over and over and over. for some reason, we just will not learn from our mistakes. i dont know what its going to take for this team to change its philosophy, maybe we never will.

I know man... I can't believe that people will still use THAT as an excuse. This team has had a decade since JKC passed to get it's roots dug in. And even more than that since Gibbs left the first time.

Seems that some fans of this team are pacified with mediocrity.

[RedskinzOwnU]

You are absolutely right. Most of the posters on here have a blind love and devotion for Gibbs. Those of us that do not can see coaching the job he is doing for what it really is - and it's not very good.

[DarrellGreenFan]

We may be 2-1, but:

-The Dolphins are a pretty poor team, and we still needed to go to overtime. Moreover, the Dolphins had many dropped balls during the game. Had their receivers been able to hang on to the ball, it could have been another story.

-The Eagles nearly mounted a comeback against us. McNabb has many bad throws in that game. True, some of them were caused by pressure- but some of them were just bad throws. If McNabb wasn't playing hurt, we likely would have lost that game.

We're 2-1, but we could easily be 0-3. The thing is, under Gibbs II we have a consistent pattern of letting teams come back against us....

[RODAN1054]

when you go 8-8, 7-9, 5-11: its time for a rebuild.

weve needed full drafts. 04 we had like 4 picks? 2 of them turned out great, but you need more than 2 starters from a draft, you need depth and youth that could potentially turn into something better. 05 we had two first rounders and absolute zero with our other picks. who picks 2 fullbacks in a draft? 06 we gave all our draft picks away again, didnt even start the one good pick we had, and were relying on 5th and 6th round picks to be anchors at our dline. not smart.

where are the 2nd rounders? 3rd rounders? 4th rounders? shocking that when we actually pick in those rounds, we usually hit. we just seem to think that duckett and lloyd and brunell and even kendall are more important than building for the future. we need full drafts, and we dont even have one this year.YOU FORGOT 10-6

[RODAN1054]

I can see your point. I think it's better to not find yourself at either extreme, if you ask me. But again, that's just me.

My issue is more with the knee-jerk stupidity as well. SO YOUR SICK OF LOSING 2 GAMES LOL DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF, WE HEARD NO COMPLAINTS WHEN WE WERE 2-0

[TotalRecall]

:whoknows: Some people like living in the past I guess.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

YOU FORGOT 10-6


the records i posted were before joe gibbs got here, but while were at records, lets include joe gibbs with those

8-8
7-9
5-11
6-10
10-6
5-11

so thats 4 bad seasons, 1 average season, 1 good season. man is that a lot to get excited about!

[RODAN1054]

the records i posted were before joe gibbs got here, but while were at records, lets include joe gibbs with those

8-8
7-9
5-11
6-10
10-6
5-11

so thats 4 bad seasons, 1 average season, 1 good season. man is that a lot to get excited about! yes but that goes back to 80's, remenber his other acc. in 8o's, like superbowls

[Stadium-Armory]

In the past, I always wanted the redskins to win, to shut up the opposing fans. After participating on this board for a while, I now root for the redskins to win, to shut up some of our own fans! What an odd turnabout.. I still don't know exactly how I feel about that.

We're 2-1. Now's not the time to have a meltdown.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

The Saints aren't getting that much grief because we all know that just like the Red Sox winning the world series a few years ago that the 2006 Saints were an anomaly, perennial losers, sorta like the Red Sox are perennial runner ups.

I make comments about Joe Gibbus Maximus and not all of them are sugary Larry King like softballs but the way some of the alledged skins fans appear happy with skins shortcomings usually deserve the responses by the swarm


the saints are getting bashed, if i was a saints fan id be furious. its all coaching with them. they just arent running the football at all. they had deuce and bush, and were throwing all game. i know they were a throwing team last year, but they still put up a ton of rushing yards, and they just werent doing it this year at all. no clue why payton isnt trying to run the ball more. now he cant because deuce is out, so theyre gonna end up in the cellar.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

yes but that goes back to 80's, remenber his other acc. in 8o's, like superbowls


ah i forgot, joe gibbs first tenure with the skins has something to do with this tenure. :doh:

[pjfootballer]

I love the sweeping generalizations that tend to be used in threads such as this. The grouping of a large number of posters under one label or action,(or both), when discussing the differences in these posters opinions. They crack me up. Mostly because they are, by and large, incorrect. I read a lot of posts before becoming a mod. Now I read a whole lot more of what you people write these days, (which could be grounds for some type of serious therapy down the road ;) ), and it appears several of you would be surprised at how few posters actually pull the "real fan" routine on here. Every bit as much as some would be surprised at how few posters from the other side actually believe they have all the answers. Actually, believe it or not, many would be amazed at how many don't get worked up over the media criticism that comes the Redskins way. Something that became abundantly clear in a recent thread or 2 about just that.

Pull out the new sig in support of Joe?

[pjfootballer]

why would you? if your age is correct, he's done nothing for you to give a damn about him.

its like this, a lot of us grew up with Gibbs as the coach our team...you didn't. You'll never really get it, and we'll never really be able to explain it ...

why don't I bash Joe, well because he is Joe. Sure i have my doubts right now, but if we end up 7-9 this year, and 8-8 next year, and JG calls it quits, I will have not regretted him coming back at all. Why? I don't know, I just won't.

Age doesn't have a thing to do about it. I was around for JG I and I see a different coach now in JG II who has not adapted to today's NFL. At 17 points per game and 23-28, you can't convince me otherwise. Do I want him fired? of course not. His HOF record give him a pass. Do I want him around next year? Yes. But he needs to learn to change and adapt. Shula, a run oriented coach most of his career adapted to Marino and his style. Joe can do it too.

[dfbovey]

In the past, I always wanted the redskins to win, to shut up the opposing fans. After participating on this board for a while, I now root for the redskins to win, to shut up some of our own fans! What an odd turnabout.. I still don't know exactly how I feel about that.

We're 2-1. Now's not the time to have a meltdown.

Some people are just fed up with the condition this team has been in for the past 15 years. While some seem to be content with it.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I doubt anybody is content with the way the team has been the last 15 years. However, there is most definitely a group of fans around here that never say anything positive about the team no matter what. The fact is you're only making yourself miserable if you can't pull any enjoyment out of the team. You can ***** from now until the cows come home, it won't have any affect on the team, just on your psyche. I think it's fine to voice your displeasure, but I think it's to your own detriment if that's all you find yourself doing.

I'll voice my displeasure every once in a while, but for the most part I don't like to wallow in the mire. Not my style to be negative.

For instance there was a group of people who believed in the "5 in a row or we don't go" thing. There was also the group of people who scoffed at it for five games. Fact is, I took enjoyment out of it for those five weeks because I believed in it. I can't imagine that the people who didn't believe we could do it took much enjoyment out of those five weeks because they were expecting to be let down. For me that's no way to go through a season. But hey, if you love to be miserable and you'd rather ***** and moan and every turn, then by all means, have at it.

[pjfootballer]

No, what they will all do is come out and thump their chests and start shouting from the rooftops about how "the Skins are back, baby! I LOVE THIS TEAM!"

It's disgusting.

True fans don't do that. I don't think Redskins fans are that way. If I criticize them, I also earn the right to revel in any winning also. Only Brokeback fans are that way. Most of the people that have complaints about the team in here are fans through and through.

[pjfootballer]

Absolutely correct. What I am referring to are the people who say "we suck, the season's over, another wasted season, Gibbs sucks, the FO office sucks, I hate this team, we will never be any good...." blah blah blah, but when we start winning it becomes "we're great! playoffs baby, here we come! Gibbs is great! I love this team!" blah blah blah.

You can't write the whole team and season off one week and then come back after a win and act like you never said those things you said before and act like the team's biggest cheerleader. It's called being a "fairweather fan" and it's normally frowned upon.

But whatever. That's just my feeling. It gets on my nerves and it's happening way too much around here.

Same thing could be said for the fans who see no wrong, have the "that's OK, we'll get em next time" view and basically go through life as a fan with the B & G Glasses on. That gets tiresome also. A good middle ground is what it should be.

[Redskins4ever]

The fact of the matter is Joe Gibbs second tenure isn't over yet. The only real losing season was last year. He made the playoffs his second season back. I understand what you are saying about the T.J. Duckett trade, but at the time Portis was injured and Betts and Cartright was carrying the load. Gibbs did what he felt was the best thing for the RB position at the time. Brandon Lloyd was supposed to be a bright addition to Santana Moss, but for whatever reason, he hasn't worked out.

The Redskins are 2-1. Not 1-2. Not 0-3.

[pjfootballer]

SO YOUR SICK OF LOSING 2 GAMES LOL DO YOU HEAR YOURSELF, WE HEARD NO COMPLAINTS WHEN WE WERE 2-0

Then you must not have been on the board. Despite being 2-0, there was still things to complain about. I was hardly one of the people in here sayin "Super Bowl Baby" after 2 close wins.

[djotroy17]

we r 2-1...bashing is not needed yet

[CTaylor42]

its not just about this season!!! look at his whole tenure here. One playoff win with a team that MIRACULOUSLY won 5 straight to get us in. 2005 was more the abberation then the norm

Was you expecting a Super Bowl within three years? Because, if you was, you're expecting too much. Gibbs inherited a team that had NO heart and was in disarray. He came in and got us to the playoffs after only two years. We hadn't been to the playoffs since 99'. You can call it a miracle if you want. Because gibbs is a miraculous Coach. We don't need to beat up Gibbs, because he's beating himself up enough for the Giants loss. Bulldog had it right. We're piling on Gibbs for ONE bad half of Football. You guys can do what you want, but for me, I'm sticking with Gibbs. In my opinion He's earned my loyalty.

[Fury010]

Hall of Fame coach and even more of a Hall of Fame person....that's why!

[mcarey032]

I think that you are right on with your commentary. There is no question that if Norv or Marty were performing at this level, you would always hear "That isn't what Coach Gibbs would do!" I think that it is healthy to question what goes on with the team and it is OK not to agree with what the coach does all the time. I respect and admire coach gibbs, but that doesn't mean that he is not going to be questioned for the decisions that he makes when he is coaching our team. I do really hope that this will be our year. I would hate to see his legacy in some way tarnished or diminished because he came back and didn't do so well.

[dockeryfan]

Hall of Fame coach and even more of a Hall of Fame person....that's why!
HOF guy that spiked the ball on 1st down. Get a grip. He isn't without fault.

[FredrockSkinsFan]

There are officially too many unqualified commentators, that's what I can't stand.

Some clown that had a winning season in Madden or two, and religiously watches ESPN etc, automatically assumes that he/she is fully qualified to weigh in on every decision a coach makes (9/10 with the genius and mental clarity that hindsight easily provides).

[skins fan1010]

Let me ask you this: When Gibbs (or somebody, but I can't imagine it being done without Gibbs' consent) sent the FG unit out in the first half with 14 seconds still left on the clock and second down in the first half in Philly, you seriously weren't saying "WTF??"


Let me ask YOU this: Did he kick a field goal there or score a touchdown?

[mistertim]

Let me ask YOU this: Did he kick a field goal there or score a touchdown?

He got to rethink it after the timeout called by the opposing team. Who knows what was said to him or going through his mind. IMO he should have been going for a TD from the get go, but obviously something woke him up and told him to give JC a chance. JC took advantage of that and we got a TD. However, it is like first impressions. The first thing Gibbs wanted to do was kick a FG and that was his plan, even though there was time for at least one or maybe two more plays. No clue why he changed his mind but it is good that he did.

[skins fan1010]

He got to rethink it after the timeout called by the opposing team.

I know, but my point is that:
1. Gibbs called for the offense to go back out and go for the end zone;
2. They reached the end zone; and
3. They won the game;

I'm tired of the criticisms on this board. If he went for the field goal there AND lost the game by four that guy might have a valid criticism. But, they won, so he needs to be quiet.

[mistertim]

I know, but my point is that:
1. Gibbs called for the offense to go back out and go for the end zone;
2. They reached the end zone; and
3. They won the game;

I'm tired of the criticisms on this board. If he went for the field goal there AND lost the game by four that guy might have a valid criticism. But, they won, so he needs to be quiet.

Understandable point, but the thing is that if it had gone the other way and they went with a FG would you be screaming bloody murder if we had lost by a few because of that?

[hail2skins]

Let me ask YOU this: Did he kick a field goal there or score a touchdown?

The answer to your question is obvious. But I noticed you didn't answer my question.

And please don't tell me I need to be quiet "just because they won."

[Chump Bailey]

Same thing could be said for the fans who see no wrong, have the "that's OK, we'll get em next time" view and basically go through life as a fan with the B & G Glasses on. That gets tiresome also. A good middle ground is what it should be.

Very tiresome I agree.

[Heisenberg]

True fans don't do that. I don't think Redskins fans are that way. If I criticize them, I also earn the right to revel in any winning also. Only Brokeback fans are that way. Most of the people that have complaints about the team in here are fans through and through.

:applause: :applause:

[D-Day]

Age doesn't have a thing to do about it. I was around for JG I and I see a different coach now in JG II who has not adapted to today's NFL. At 17 points per game and 23-28, you can't convince me otherwise. Do I want him fired? of course not. His HOF record give him a pass. Do I want him around next year? Yes. But he needs to learn to change and adapt. Shula, a run oriented coach most of his career adapted to Marino and his style. Joe can do it too.

that is the exact same way I feel about Joe, I have said it and got responses like "so you want gibbs fired". That is what I was talking about back on page 5 or so when I mentioned the taking a comment and pulling it too the extremes.
:laugh:

[D-Day]

I doubt anybody is content with the way the team has been the last 15 years. However, there is most definitely a group of fans around here that never say anything positive about the team no matter what. The fact is you're only making yourself miserable if you can't pull any enjoyment out of the team. You can ***** from now until the cows come home, it won't have any affect on the team, just on your psyche. I think it's fine to voice your displeasure, but I think it's to your own detriment if that's all you find yourself doing.

I'll voice my displeasure every once in a while, but for the most part I don't like to wallow in the mire. Not my style to be negative.

For instance there was a group of people who believed in the "5 in a row or we don't go" thing. There was also the group of people who scoffed at it for five games. Fact is, I took enjoyment out of it for those five weeks because I believed in it. I can't imagine that the people who didn't believe we could do it took much enjoyment out of those five weeks because they were expecting to be let down. For me that's no way to go through a season. But hey, if you love to be miserable and you'd rather ***** and moan and every turn, then by all means, have at it.

I agree with what you are saying somewhat. I think that there are very few always pessimistic fans. It just seems that way, but what makes it worse.

1. Looking at the complaint the person is making and discuss it, thereby having a topic that has been discussed with all sides voicing their opinion.

orrrrr

2. You suck, your idea sucks, and you are not fan type comments. This only leaves the argument that was made to die, while you have a 15 page thread of YOU SUCKS. Then ten minutes later the same argument is made in another thread, just worded different then it all starts again. When a 15th thread (Like the BL threads this week) comes up we have nothing to link the Poster too to read the various arguments. So the chorus of you sucks begins and then good posts get losts because people just click the Last Page Link to voice their you suck responses.

Number 1 is the ideal world and Number 2 is reality.

Another ***** I have since we are airing them is why do people who always support whatever decision the team makes always feel they have to post no or few facts and demand the deluge of facts or links from the other side.

Anyways the bye week is almost over. :dallasuck :gaintsuck :eaglesuck :point2sky