Is the US still the leader?

[Burgold]

I have been hearing people ask whether the U.S. is even ready for a female President and I look at India and the UK and I wonder how this could be a question. I hear people say we have to get off the oil addiction and begin to work on practical alternative solutions and then I look at Brazil and scratch my head. I look to manufacturing, software, innovation, and I see other nations surpassing us. We are even outsourcing our research, our security, our brainpower. It seems that we are in a phase in our nation where we are regressing. It's an exaggeration, but today we are doing what we once despised our enemies for doing. Secret wiretaps, secret prisons, torture, lying to ourselves and selling propaganda as history, because spin is more important than truth. Americans are rooting for Dallas again. Everything seems screwed up.

We used to lead or be in the forefront of innovations both social and scientific, but now we are lagging behind or outsourcing them. We used to lead in political terms, but now people do not trust our word and some doubt our ability. I see too much fear and greed behind our decision making.

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

[Larry]

Hey, if I wanted to read stuff like this, I'd be in FedEx, today. :)

(But I agree with you. Among other times, I go through these thoughts every July 20th.)

[Burgold]

I'm sure part of this post has to do with my Redskins hangover.

[Larry]

Another of the things that got me thinking we may be witnessing the decay of an empire was when I read that there were fewer people in the US employed as engineers in 2004 than there were in 2000. (Not that there were fewer people with engineering degrees, just that there were fewer total engineering jobs.)

I think we're seeing the same thing in medicine. I'm convinced (simply due to the "Larry's gut feeling" method) that we're seeing fewer and fewer Doctors who are actually American. That the bean counters who are in charge of medicine have decided that the US doesn't really need to have our own doctors taught in our own medical schools. It's cheaper to bring in Indian doctors on H1-B visas (or however).

[Sarge]

I have been hearing people ask whether the U.S. is even ready for a female President and I look at India and the UK and I wonder how this could be a question. I hear people say we have to get off the oil addiction and begin to work on practical alternative solutions and then I look at Brazil and scratch my head. I look to manufacturing, software, innovation, and I see other nations surpassing us. We are even outsourcing our research, our security, our brainpower. It seems that we are in a phase in our nation where we are regressing. It's an exaggeration, but today we are doing what we once despised our enemies for doing. Secret wiretaps, secret prisons, torture, lying to ourselves and selling propaganda as history, because spin is more important than truth. Americans are rooting for Dallas again. Everything seems screwed up.

We used to lead or be in the forefront of innovations both social and scientific, but now we are lagging behind or outsourcing them. We used to lead in political terms, but now people do not trust our word and some doubt our ability. I see too much fear and greed behind our decision making.

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

Bush's One World Order. The Klintons are on that kick too

[Mass_SkinsFan]

We used to lead or be in the forefront of innovations both social and scientific, but now we are lagging behind or outsourcing them. We used to lead in political terms, but now people do not trust our word and some doubt our ability. I see too much fear and greed behind our decision making.

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

No Burgold we don't lead anymore. We are not a bunch of sheep and followers who are being dragged down the road to ruin. We're being dragged their by both our own government and our connections to international groups and governments. The place we're being dragged to is called The Socialist Utopia and it's somewhere that no right-minded human being should ever want to be anywhere near.

In the past the United States lead because our society was based on certain values and ideals which were generally accepted throughout society. Unfortunately in the recent decades we've abandonded those values and ideals and allowed ourselves to be falsely lead down the road towards that Socialist Utopia I mentioned earlier.

Unfortunately I don't see that changing any time soon.

[PeterMP]

There are peaks and valleys in any situation. Many of the samethings we are seeing now were prevelant in the 70's and early 80's in terms of technology and things.

The next dominant country will be the next country that comes up with the next new dominant technology. We have more competition in that race now than ever, which is worrisome.

[panel]

I have been hearing people ask whether the U.S. is even ready for a female President and I look at India and the UK and I wonder how this could be a question. I hear people say we have to get off the oil addiction and begin to work on practical alternative solutions and then I look at Brazil and scratch my head. I look to manufacturing, software, innovation, and I see other nations surpassing us. We are even outsourcing our research, our security, our brainpower. It seems that we are in a phase in our nation where we are regressing. It's an exaggeration, but today we are doing what we once despised our enemies for doing. Secret wiretaps, secret prisons, torture, lying to ourselves and selling propaganda as history, because spin is more important than truth. Americans are rooting for Dallas again. Everything seems screwed up.

We used to lead or be in the forefront of innovations both social and scientific, but now we are lagging behind or outsourcing them. We used to lead in political terms, but now people do not trust our word and some doubt our ability. I see too much fear and greed behind our decision making.

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

Brazil is not the model for energy in the world. If you want electricity in Brazil, you don't pay the electric company, you pay some amature electrician (whom often get electricuted themselves) to pirate electricity like people used to steal cable here. More than half the people in Brazil get power this way.

Outsourcing is great, and the fact of the matter is that we are taking advantage of outsourcing, while other nations over politicizes the issue and end up tring to block outsourceing and end up not able to take advantage like we are, and THEY end up behind, not us.

[endzone_dave]

I have been hearing people ask whether the U.S. is even ready for a female President and I look at India and the UK and I wonder how this could be a question. I hear people say we have to get off the oil addiction and begin to work on practical alternative solutions and then I look at Brazil and scratch my head. I look to manufacturing, software, innovation, and I see other nations surpassing us. We are even outsourcing our research, our security, our brainpower. It seems that we are in a phase in our nation where we are regressing. It's an exaggeration, but today we are doing what we once despised our enemies for doing. Secret wiretaps, secret prisons, torture, lying to ourselves and selling propaganda as history, because spin is more important than truth. Americans are rooting for Dallas again. Everything seems screwed up.

We used to lead or be in the forefront of innovations both social and scientific, but now we are lagging behind or outsourcing them. We used to lead in political terms, but now people do not trust our word and some doubt our ability. I see too much fear and greed behind our decision making.

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

When you get cancer, do you buy drugs made from an American company or from a company in India.

Is the CPU in your laptop made in the US or in China.

Who is making plans on putting a colony on the moon then moving on to Mars, us or Brazil?

Yeah, the US has a decent size of the population who sit back and wait for Hillary to give them everything they need but we also have a large percentage of the population still busting their ass to live the American dream. I work around a lot of people working 50-60 hours per week wondering how they or their spouse (who is also working 50-60 hours per week) is going to pick up the kids.

I guarantee you the amount of hours worked per week per househohold is WAY higher than it was in the 1950's. By far.

[Sarge]

I guarantee you the amount of hours worked per week per househohold is WAY higher than it was in the 1950's. By far.

That's right. Just to make ends meet.

Now tell me, what's wrong with this picture?

[jbooma]

I have been hearing people ask whether the U.S. is even ready for a female President and I look at India and the UK and I wonder how this could be a question.


The US has been ready but for the "right" female president. Many feel Hillary is just where she is because of her husband so is not worthy enough for the job.

It is sad when all these other nations can have female presidents yet we are behind.

[Thanos]

Why does the US have to "lead" in everything? We've been forcefeed this pablum since birth.

The US was invovled in a lot of dirt to take the lead in many industries by sabatoging competitors and its coem back to bite us in the rear.

[endzone_dave]

That's right. Just to make ends meet.

Now tell me, what's wrong with this picture?

I think a lot of that is due to the global economy. If you don't have any valuable skills, companies will go out get that labor for a fraction of what you expect to make.

If you write software that keeps a spacecraft in orbit, you'll make a good living. If the only computer skills you have lets you work at a help desk, then you will be competing with the guy in India willing to work for much less than you are. Instead of making $60 per hour, you make $12. A huge difference.

It's a much more competitive world we live in.

[Burgold]

When you get cancer, do you buy drugs made from an American company or from a company in India.

Is the CPU in your laptop made in the US or in China.

Who is making plans on putting a colony on the moon then moving on to Mars, us or Brazil?

I guarantee you the amount of hours worked per week per househohold is WAY higher than it was in the 1950's. By far.

Look how carefully you had to phrase the CPU statement. And even with the CPU aren't parts of that made elsewhere?

Medicine is a good point. We probably still are leading in pharma and biotechnology.

I'm also not saying that Americans are lazy. I think that's far from the case, but sometimes I feel there is a leash on American inventiveness. The powers that be (be they corportate or governmental) are so interested in keeping what they got that new ideas become supressed and I think that is why some other nations are beginning to surpass us in terms of innovation and invention. Because we are far more concerns with profits than progress. Even though we know, that in the long run, progress is far more profitable than staying with the old and eventually inefficient/obsolete

[Prosperity]

This is not political issue this goes much deeper than the banalities of rightists vs. leftists. We have become complacent with our positions. Not just as a country but as individuals. In general I feel like we aren't innovative anymore, we aren't community minded anymore. This is a problem I see on this website, and on my college campus... we are happy to be mediocre, because mediocre is easy. The only contributions we are making to the world now are technological, and how many of our scientists were produced by other societies? A lot of them come to America because we offer the best lifestyle ( I hesitate to say best because what we really have is a very high level of material wealth), but is our society really contributing as much as it can? I don't have time to list reasons and support now (got to go to class)... but our society needs an intellectual and emotional awakening, it isn't ok to be boring, it isn't ok to be dumb... I believe we will get there, but it has to get a lot worse to wake us out of this stupor.

[Prosperity]

Another of the things that got me thinking we may be witnessing the decay of an empire was when I read that there were fewer people in the US employed as engineers in 2004 than there were in 2000. (Not that there were fewer people with engineering degrees, just that there were fewer total engineering jobs.)

I think we're seeing the same thing in medicine. I'm convinced (simply due to the "Larry's gut feeling" method) that we're seeing fewer and fewer Doctors who are actually American. That the bean counters who are in charge of medicine have decided that the US doesn't really need to have our own doctors taught in our own medical schools. It's cheaper to bring in Indian doctors on H1-B visas (or however).

the level of work our students put in is pathetic (I include myself). We are intelligent but lazy and apathetic. My relatives in Iran (and distant ones in India) study at least 5 times as much as I do, and yet they don't have nearly a tenth my resources.

The only thing we are really good at exporting now is our poisonous MTV/Hollywood culture... hopefully it won't poison the rest of the world.

[Prosperity]

I see DjTj is browsing this thread... please inject some optimism

[Larry]

the level of work our students put in is pathetic (I include myself). We are intelligent but lazy and apathetic. My relatives in Iran (and distant ones in India) study at least 5 times as much as I do, and yet they don't have nearly a tenth my resources.

The only thing we are really good at exporting now is our poisonous MTV/Hollywood culture... hopefully it won't poison the rest of the world.

I'll agree that the National Work Ethic is going downhill. Heck, look how many people spend the day on ExtremeSkins.

But I don't think we're seeing companies cutting back on the number of American doctors and engineers because of a declining quality of American doctors and engineers.

The jobs are going away because the people making the decisions value "cheap" over "skill". The decision is consciously being made to transition what once were highly sought after professions into disposable, interchangeable "script readers".

I think there's something wrong about the fact that nobody sees anything wrong with Dilbert the engineer working in a cubicle for Pointy Haired Boss.

[Prosperity]

What reason do you have to believe that they aren't more skilled AND cheaper?

[Larry]

What reason do you have to believe that they aren't more skilled AND cheaper?

10-15 hours a week spent on the phone to various tech support lines.

[DjTj]

I see DjTj is browsing this thread... please inject some optimismI'll give it a shot, although this is killing my productivity. :silly:

the level of work our students put in is pathetic (I include myself). We are intelligent but lazy and apathetic. My relatives in Iran (and distant ones in India) study at least 5 times as much as I do, and yet they don't have nearly a tenth my resources.No offense to you or the other students you know, but there are Americans in other schools around the country that work very hard. I used to think the way you do, and I slacked off quite a bit in undergrad as well, but I knew there were people around me pulling all-nighters and getting close to 4.0's ... it didn't really hit me until law school though when I met people from schools all over the country who had really worked hard in college; and it was hard to even find somewhere to sit in the library in the weeks leading up to finals. Even though you and I might not always be the most diligent, there are a lot of people who aren't browsing message boards all day.

The United States is filled with smart and hard-working people. And all those smart people in other countries? If they work hard enough, they make it to America, and they fill our graduate schools and work in our companies.

Other countries are definitely getting stronger too, but I think the competition is good. American technology is now driven to stay ahead of Japan or China or Germany or India. People are working longer hours, as Sarge pointed out, and we are investing millions in innovation whether it is alternative energy or genetics or electron beam lithography.

CPU's are a great example. Intel used to make CPU's and memory and many other kinds of chips in the United States. Sometime in the 80's, Japan and Taiwan began to make the simpler components like RAM more cheaply than Intel could make it in the U.S. So Intel stopped making those things; they stuck to the CPU's that required smaller components, higher precision, and cleaner clean rooms. Over several decades they have managed to stay at the front edge of that technology, and a lot of their manufacturing has remained in the United States.

...and I think focusing on the geographic location for manufacturing is wrong; the important thing is not that Intel has its Fab's in the United States; it's that they are designed in the United States. When they open up a new plant in Taiwan or India or Ireland it is based on the work of engineers in the United States.

We are still very much at the forefront of innovation. Other countries are surely catching up, but that shouldn't be something to fear ... a rising tide will lift all boats.

[GibbsFactor]

Take a look at what type of money is used to buy and trade oil. Then look to see what Russia and Iran are planning to do, trade in the Euro. That's all you need to know.

We can maintain our country if we acknowledge history and see that once an empire is stretched too thin, it can no longer maintain itself.

Fortunately, we can do something about this to prevent this, at the very least delay it.

[Thanos]

This is not political issue this goes much deeper than the banalities of rightists vs. leftists. We have become complacent with our positions. Not just as a country but as individuals. In general I feel like we aren't innovative anymore, we aren't community minded anymore. This is a problem I see on this website, and on my college campus... we are happy to be mediocre, because mediocre is easy. The only contributions we are making to the world now are technological, and how many of our scientists were produced by other societies? A lot of them come to America because we offer the best lifestyle ( I hesitate to say best because what we really have is a very high level of material wealth), but is our society really contributing as much as it can? I don't have time to list reasons and support now (got to go to class)... but our society needs an intellectual and emotional awakening, it isn't ok to be boring, it isn't ok to be dumb... I believe we will get there, but it has to get a lot worse to wake us out of this stupor.

Excellent points.

I think the media has alot to do with this.The age of sacrifice is long gone.

Lord help us if there is another depression.

[techboy]

That's right. Just to make ends meet.

Now tell me, what's wrong with this picture?

Unrealistic expectations.

In the 50's, which is the "golden age" people often refer to (including in this thread), the ideal was that there was only one breadearner (the husband) while the wife stayed home with the 2.3 kids and the dog. It was possible to do this and still maintain a middle class lifestyle. Ah, the good old days...

But, let's examine what "middle class" in those days entailed: One car, one TV with rabbit ears (3 stations), one telephone.

Today, in order to "make ends meet", we "need" cable TV, multiple phones, cell phones, high speed internet, at least two cars, air conditioning, etc., etc., etc.

If you wanted to live a true 1950's lifestyle (one car, no cable TV, no high speed internet, no cell phones, no fun ;)), I have no doubt that you could do it working 1950's hours.

Heck, my wife and I are firmly middle class (I'm a teacher, and she is a substitute teacher working on her certification). Yet, we have 4 televisions (including one projector and screen that's 91", with a 7.1 surround sound setup), high speed internet, satelite television with high def programming, two DVD players, 3 computers, 2 cars, air conditioning, heating, and we travel to Europe at least once a year (last year, it was twice). To the 1950's individual, we live like royalty.

People in this country feel like they have to work harder to make ends meet largely because we have redefined what "making ends meet" actually means.

[Corcaigh]

I disagree with the OP.

The USA still leads in many areas of technology - it's just that the rest of the world isn't as far behind as it was. There is competition everywhere as the auto manufacturers have found out.

I agree with Larry on outsourcing in services being driven by cost not quality. Most premium tech support services remain here. The overseas folks exist to offload the 99% of the public who have a problem, need help, but their happiness and retention as a customer isn't important enough to warrant the time of someone making more than 25$ an hour who is more likely to solve their problem in the fastest manner.

Those with highly marketable skills in America are leading better and better lives. But the 'middle working class' who used to make a very decent living, say as a technician in industry who used to make double what a teacher or university professor might make, are finding that the work doesn't pay like it used to because much of this work can be outsourced.

I also don't know how much of a factor in the financial struggles of middle-class Americans is driven by totally different expectations than previous generations. Americans are living in larger houses, driving newer and more cars than their parents. People who talk about struggling to make ends meet, and yet they are spending hundreds every month on cell plans and cable TV subscriptions, HD TVs costing thousands, new cars and expensive vacations.

I also agree with the commentary on college students and work ethic. The elite colleges here stack up at least as well or better than the best of those overseas. But the third and fourth tier colleges here appear to exist only as businesses with very questionable value to their customers. When I looked at colleges in my country of birth, there wasn't a 'party college' option on the list - there were classes that were easier than others such as business, but those normally were taken by people as a first step before a career in accountancy. I know part of college life is about personal development, but IMHO too many Americans attend colleges with courses that don't require either hard work or intellectual rigor.

It used to be that you were better off being a 'C student' or performer in America than an A student almost anywhere else in the world. That is increasingly no longer the case. The free ride in America for the average or under-performer is over.

[Corcaigh]

I'll give it a shot, although this is killing my productivity. :silly:
No offense to you or the other students you know, but there are Americans in other schools around the country that work very hard. I used to think the way you do, and I slacked off quite a bit in undergrad as well, but I knew there were people around me pulling all-nighters and getting close to 4.0's ... it didn't really hit me until law school though when I met people from schools all over the country who had really worked hard in college; and it was hard to even find somewhere to sit in the library in the weeks leading up to finals. Even though you and I might not always be the most diligent, there are a lot of people who aren't browsing message boards all day.

Bingo ... look at the opening hours of your college library. If it doesn't offer long hours throughout the term and extend to 24/7 as exam time approaches, there are students at other colleges working harder than you who will get the better jobs.

And they know it ... here is a chant heard at a basketball game between a smaller academic-oriented college and a big college famous for its sports and 'extra-curricular' activities. The big college team was way ahead on the scoreboard, and their students were giving the small college kids a hard time. The small college cheering section responds ...

"That's alright, that's OK"
"You're going to work for us one day"

:laugh:

[Burgold]

I disagree with the OP.


You disagree with me that other democratic nations have had a female leader before the United States and there are large segments wrestling with the notion of if a woman can lead? You disagree with me that Brazil is ahead of the game when it comes to finding an alternative to Opec and oil? You agreed when you disagreed that many of the better minds are coming from outside. Remember, the good ole days of home grown innovators like Edison and Einstein (:silly: )

In too many segments, I see this country being led by fear and afraid to take the leaps or risks. Maybe I'm just in a dark mood, but I believe that we need to be better than we are and that our cultural mindset and priorities need re-examining and probably re-defining.

[Corcaigh]

You disagree with me that other democratic nations have had a female leader before the United States and there are large segments wrestling with the notion of if a woman can lead? You disagree with me that Brazil is ahead of the game when it comes to finding an alternative to Opec and oil? You agreed when you disagreed that many of the better minds are coming from outside. Remember, the good ole days of home grown innovators like Edison and Einstein (:silly: )

In too many segments, I see this country being led by fear and afraid to take the leaps or risks. Maybe I'm just in a dark mood, but I believe that we need to be better than we are and that our cultural mindset and priorities need re-examining and probably re-defining.

I think you are in a dark mood. I completely disagree with the paranoia about technology leadership. The American tech sector has always had a mix of home grown and foreign brain-power. I don't see that changing. The Manhattan project was driven significantly by European brain-power, and whether USA would have got to the Moon without Nazi scientists hidden away in Alabama is very questionable. Intel, Google, Yahoo and many other tech leaders from recent years are the work of immgrants who came here on visas.

As someone else pointed out in another thread, other than those damn liberal European countries, foreign female leaders have been part of a dynasty - much like Hillary or the Bush daughters will be when they run for office.:silly: If people genuinely oppose Hillary because of her gender, and Obama because of his race, rather than their politics it show there is a long way to go, but it's hardly getting worse.

My Euro friends and I agree that the USA is a land of extremes - with the best and the worst on display. The worst of America is getting more airtime over the past years - xenophobia and religious extremism as two negative aspects of this.

But from an optimistic geeks perspective, I hope that the worst characteristics are like a damped periodic function - it will oscillate but with each generation the peaks are successively lower in amplitude.

I'm hopeful that the next administration will be less manipulative in using fear and showing the worst of American hubris. Perhaps I'm naive and think better of the qualities of the American genetic makeup than most Americans ;)

[Burgold]

But from an optimistic geeks perspective, I hope that the worse characteristics are like a damped periodic function - it will oscillate but with each generation the peaks are successively lower in amplitude.

I'm hopeful that the next administration will be less manipulative in using fear and showing the worst of American hubris. Perhaps I'm naive and think better of the qualities of the American genetic makeup than most Americans ;)

You mean in the end, it really is all Bush's fault? I knew it :tantrum:

I would never deny (which is why I poked fun at myself with the Einstein bit) that the immigrant has been a great transfusion of inspiration and energy to this nation. Very often, they are more enfused with the American spirit and dream than those of us ungratefuls that were lucky enough to be born here. I hope this didn't come across as xenophobic. I think it's more about the insular, fearful, resistant to change atmosphere that has been building for a while.

[alexey]

There are good things to say, but there are also problems. Things I find most troubling are the disconnect between science and politics, and grounding of morality in religion.

[GibbsFactor]

I tend to think we are losing our grip on leading in so many areas. It can only happen for so long. We have all lived good during the 80's and 90's. No big concerns. We've become overgrown with a feeling of invincibility to the point where we lose reality with the rest of the world. Now, with problems arising, we'd rather pay attention to Brittney and OJ then to the actual problems we face because it's been so long since any of us have had to sacrifice anything for our way of life and we've all taken it for granted. As a result, countries wanting to prove themselves have steadily done so. Luckily for us, we had such a lead in being the Superpower, only now are we seeing we are losing that grip and are starting to think we need to do something about it. I think we will all rise to the occasion.

[DjTj]

You disagree with me that other democratic nations have had a female leader before the United States and there are large segments wrestling with the notion of if a woman can lead? You disagree with me that Brazil is ahead of the game when it comes to finding an alternative to Opec and oil? You agreed when you disagreed that many of the better minds are coming from outside. Remember, the good ole days of home grown innovators like Edison and Einstein (:silly: )On the female President issue, I don't think it's really that big a deal ... it has been a function of circumstance as much as social progress. I think it has been easier in countries with Prime Ministers where their leader is not chosen by direct election - it is always harder to move the entire population at once. For a more direct comparison, the House of Lords is currently about 19% women while the U.S. Senate is 16%, so we're not really that far off.

As for Brazilian ethanol, I think that's almost completely a circumstance of sugar cane having a much higher ethanol yield than corn. If we were a tropical nation, we would have been much quicker to make the transition as well. Brazil's move to ethanol was more a function of geography and self-interest than technology.

As far as Edison, I think his story illustrates the way things really work with respect to foreigners and domestic industry. He was a great American-born inventor (whose parents were from Canada), but when it came time to power the nation, we went with a system designed by an immigrant, Nikolai Tesla (and funded by an American investor in Westinghouse). It has always been a mix of home-grown and imported talent that got things done.

...and not long after Edison and Tesla brought electricity to the industrial world, America went through a period of xenophobia and we literally shut our borders to Asians and to southern Europeans for a while after World War I, but that didn't stop the innovation from rolling forward when we needed it in World War II, and of course the xenophobia subsided.


In too many segments, I see this country being led by fear and afraid to take the leaps or risks. Maybe I'm just in a dark mood, but I believe that we need to be better than we are and that our cultural mindset and priorities need re-examining and probably re-defining.We've been through this before and come out just fine.
think it's more about the insular, fearful, resistant to change atmosphere that has been building for a while. There have always been conservatives, and they have always lost in the end. ;)

[Burgold]

I didn't know Edison's parents were Canadien. Cool. :cheers: I did know he was kicked out of school because his teacher thought that he was "too stupid to learn"

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I didn't know Edison's parents were Canadien. Cool. :cheers: I did know he was kicked out of school because his teacher thought that he was "too stupid to learn"
I thought it was Einstein who got kicked out of school?

[Burgold]

When Edison was young he had an accident involving a train. That's where he damaged his hearing. When he went back to school, he couldn't hear very well and this resulted in him being confused and getting some pretty poor marks. The teacher took this to mean he was slow. Asked his parents to come in and in front of young Thomas told them that he was "too stupid to learn" and really didn't belong in school.

Edison conducted his first experiment a few weeks later, which was sitting on a pile of chicken eggs to see if he could make them hatch.

If you go back, it's amazing how many of our ""Geniuses" would be called disabled today. Everyone from Beethoven, to Edison, to Van Gogh, to Einstein.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

You're right. I knew Einstein had some problems in school though.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562147/Einstein_Albert.html


Einstein hated the dull regimentation and unimaginative spirit of school in Munich. When repeated business failure led the family to leave Germany for Milan, Italy, Einstein, who was then 15 years old, used the opportunity to withdraw from the school. He spent a year with his parents in Milan, and when it became clear that he would have to make his own way in the world, he finished secondary school in Aarau, Switzerland, and entered the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zürich. Einstein did not enjoy the methods of instruction there. He often cut classes and used the time to study physics on his own or to play his beloved violin. He passed his examinations and graduated in 1900 by studying the notes of a classmate. His professors did not think highly of him and would not recommend him for a university position.

Now I know why I have a GED.

[Burgold]

Can you imagine cutting classes to study physics?

[Corcaigh]

You're right. I knew Einstein had some problems in school though.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761562147/Einstein_Albert.html



Now I know why I have a GED.

Well ... it's hard to teach genius - all school can do is teach process and knowledge in the way that works for most people.

There is a story that the philosopher Wittgenstein's Ph.D. thesis was met with the following repsonse from his examiners at Cambridge University. "While this is clearly a work of genius, it does not meet the standard for a doctoral thesis from the University"

:)

[Prosperity]

I'll give it a shot, although this is killing my productivity. :silly:
No offense to you or the other students you know, but there are Americans in other schools around the country that work very hard. I used to think the way you do, and I slacked off quite a bit in undergrad as well, but I knew there were people around me pulling all-nighters and getting close to 4.0's ... it didn't really hit me until law school though when I met people from schools all over the country who had really worked hard in college; and it was hard to even find somewhere to sit in the library in the weeks leading up to finals. Even though you and I might not always be the most diligent, there are a lot of people who aren't browsing message boards all day.

obviously your analysis is incomplete unless you compare those students to their equivalents in other countries.

our 15 year olds are relative under achievers

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2003highlightsfigures.asp?Quest=1&Figure=9

i can't easily believe that they do much better once they discover beer and sex (college)... though i have a hard time believing that the quality of an undergrad education you could get in other countries can match the resources available to undergrads here... i think those two points in combination support my position.

as for our grad students...


The United States is filled with smart and hard-working people. And all those smart people in other countries? If they work hard enough, they make it to America, and they fill our graduate schools and work in our companies.




We are still very much at the forefront of innovation. Other countries are surely catching up, but that shouldn't be something to fear ... a rising tide will lift all boats.

i wholeheartedly agree with this point

[Prosperity]

10-15 hours a week spent on the phone to various tech support lines.

fair enough, i have no experience in that field; i was thinking more about foreign grad students

[DjTj]

obviously your analysis is incomplete unless you compare those students to their equivalents in other countries.

our 15 year olds are relative under achievers

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2003highlightsfigures.asp?Quest=1&Figure=9

i can't easily believe that they do much better once they discover beer and sex (college)... though i have a hard time believing that the quality of an undergrad education you could get in other countries can match the resources available to undergrads here... i think those two points in combination support my position.Here's the secret: the average student doesn't matter.

The average student is not going to invent the next great technology, and the lazy student is not going to start the next great company.

America probably tries (and fails) to educate more average students than any other nation in the world, but it doesn't really matter that the average Korean high school student is better at math than the average American. What matters is that the best math students can find their way to the best schools and into the best jobs ... and America is pretty good at doing that. So good, in fact, that the top students from other countries want to come to the United States once they have reached the highest level, whether it's to get a postgraduate degree or to work for one of our corporations.

It doesn't matter that 95% of the people in college are there for the beer and the sex. The 5% that are actually in the library and in the laboratory are getting way more than any other country can offer, and it's that 5% that will actually make a difference in the world.

[zoony]

Excellent point DJ.

[endzone_dave]

obviously your analysis is incomplete unless you compare those students to their equivalents in other countries.

our 15 year olds are relative under achievers

http://nces.ed.gov/surveys/pisa/pisa2003highlightsfigures.asp?Quest=1&Figure=9



Like someone else in this thread mentioned, there is a huge difference between the achievers in this country and the people who don't do a damn thing. I bet if you took our top achievers and matched them against the top achievers of other countries, there wouldn't be as big of a gap.

[Prosperity]

i acknowledge that the resources available here are top notch, but my point from the get go was that we have societal problems which negatively effect the vast majority of our population (the average people). if we lived in an elitist society we could get away with a sub par average, but an egalitarian and democratic society like America NEEDS better from the average people.

[endzone_dave]

i acknowledge that the resources available here are top notch, but my point from the get go was that we have societal problems which negatively effect the vast majority of our population (the average people). if we lived in an elitist society we could get away with a sub par average, but an egalitarian and democratic society like America NEEDS better from the average people.

I may be way off base but math is really a tool that only the elite folks will use anyway. How many people actually use calculus in their jobs.

What makes Americans successful isn't their SAT scores, it's their drive and innovation. Bill Gates and Steve Jobs didn't succeed because they were great at differential equations. Ever work all night on a buisness proposal? Ever work all night trying to get a system up and running. Ever take a red eye back from a meeting with a customer? These are all the things Americans are all willing to do to get the job done.

[alexey]

What matters is that the best math students can find their way to the best schools and into the best jobs ... and America is pretty good at doing that. So good, in fact, that the top students from other countries want to come to the United States once they have reached the highest level, whether it's to get a postgraduate degree or to work for one of our corporations.
Will this remain the case? What are we doing to promote and preserve this?

[Prosperity]

as for the best, of the best, i know the US is routinely bested by universities from countries like iran and the former USSR states at intl math competitions

http://www.imc-math.org.uk/imc2007/results2007teams.htm (2007, not an atypical year.... princeton U placed #4

1 Eötvös Loránd University (hungary)
2 Moscow State University (russia)
3 Sharif University of Technology (iran)
4 Princeton University (us)

[Prosperity]

when india, iran, and the former ussr states develop what reason would their grad students have for moving here?

it is only a matter of time, no one wants to be displaced and lose most of their culture unless it is for the best resources possible.

[DjTj]

i acknowledge that the resources available here are top notch, but my point from the get go was that we have societal problems which negatively effect the vast majority of our population (the average people). if we lived in an elitist society we could get away with a sub par average, but an egalitarian and democratic society like America NEEDS better from the average people.I can understand the frustration of working and voting alongside people who seem woefully ignorant, but besides providing top notch resources for the exceptional, America also does another thing better than most other countries: we offer second chances.

Someone who isn't a great math student in high school can be a very good writer and still go to an elite university. Somebody who doesn't do that well in college can still be a great salesman and even one day start their own business ... at every stage of the game, there is an opportunity to find your niche, and the resources will be there for you to be wildly successful if you work hard at it.

In many other countries, if you fail high school math, you won't be going to college and it may be difficult to have a successful career. It should be no surprise that in those countries, students put a lot of effort into high school math - it is do or die for them. In America, we tolerate failure and offer second chances, so it should be no surprise that more of our kids do actually fail.


Will this remain the case? What are we doing to promote and preserve this?I think that America is still the land of opportunity, and that we still provide the greatest opportunities of any country in the world, but as is the theme of this thread, our edge is shrinking. And some of the reasons are as Burgold as said: our growing xenophobic attitudes and our fear of change - America was once the place people came to escape all of that, but we are slowly becoming more like everyone else.

when india, iran, and the former ussr states develop what reason would their grad students have for moving here?
Hopefully by then, other parts of the world will have developed further, and the best students from Africa, Southeast Asia, and South America will want to come here. 50 years ago, the students came from Japan and Germany and Taiwan and the countries we were helping after World War II; now they come from countries recovering from the Cold War and developing economies in China and India. There are still many other countries that have the potential to grow and to send immigrants to the US.

If the African economy develops, those students will not go to Europe or to China for their education; they will come here, where we have a long history of welcoming immigrants.


it is only a matter of time, no one wants to be displaced and lose most of their culture unless it is for the best resources possible.Why did the Pilgrims leave their culture behind and set sail across the Atlantic? Why did Einstein come here? It's not always about the resources. Immigrants have often come because they were running away from their culture, and because they wanted to start a new life ... We may not always be the top destination for the best of the best, but I think we'll always be a great place for those seeking a second chance.

[isle-hawg]

It is sad when all these other nations can have female presidents yet we are behind.

Is your point that the nations that had a female as president or PM are superior to us because we haven't?

We have had some pretty lousy choices to pick from (mostly all male with few females), which female politician would have made us better had we elected her IYO?

[isle-hawg]

Do we still lead? Where are we being led to?

To answer the former I think we may have the lead in national debt. To answer the later finincial ruin.

[Burgold]

Is your point that the nations that had a female as president or PM are superior to us because we haven't?

We have had some pretty lousy choices to pick from (mostly all male with few females), which female politician would have made us better had we elected her IYO?

Jbomma had some really cool "Jane Fonda for President" posters made up in the mid 70's. I didn't really think the Barbarella outfit was really appropriate for a US President though.

[isle-hawg]

Jbomma had some really cool "Jane Fonda for President" posters made up in the mid 70's. I didn't really think the Barbarella outfit was really appropriate for a US President though.

The photo op of her with the VC pretending to shoot down American planes may have cost her a few votes as well. I guess however we would be a better world leader if we made her president?

[Burgold]

I was kidding. Jbooma is a pretty well regarded conservative on this board, so I thought the image of him with a Jane Fonda for President poster would be pretty funny.

[isle-hawg]

I was kidding. Jbooma is a pretty well regarded conservative on this board, so I thought the image of him with a Jane Fonda for President poster would be pretty funny.

I was kidding (if you call sarc kidding) too:)

[Thanos]

American universities are still by and large the platinum standard according to the Economist magazine .But what is hurting us is restrictions on letting the best and the brightest study here.Many are moving to Dhubai,Ausrailia and other places because of those pesky 911 visa laws.

I view America sometimes sadly like the bridge collpse in minnesota this summer.Great structually by a decaying infrastructure and the system designed to maintain it is out of date .We are too quick to laud what we have done, that's made us lazy is conquering new frontiers.Take space flight for instance.We owned that, now we are hitchhiking with the Soviets to get to the internatinal space station.

Illegal aliens cooking our food and building our homes.Importing teachers and exporting jobs.Soon we'll have to pay the piper.

[Prosperity]

I can understand the frustration of working and voting alongside people who seem woefully ignorant,

that's ultimately what it comes down to for me. In a free market democracy, educated citizens and consumers are vital.



but besides providing top notch resources for the exceptional, America also does another thing better than most other countries: we offer second chances.

at some point that safety net will make people complacent and apathetic.



If the African economy develops, those students will not go to Europe or to China for their education; they will come here, where we have a long history of welcoming immigrants.

Why did the Pilgrims leave their culture behind and set sail across the Atlantic? Why did Einstein come here? It's not always about the resources. Immigrants have often come because they were running away from their culture, and because they wanted to start a new life ... We may not always be the top destination for the best of the best, but I think we'll always be a great place for those seeking a second chance.


good points