Todd Collins -- Gone Next Year?

[SkinsFanMania]

The more wins we have over quality opponents and the deeper we get into the playoffs, the more likely Todd Collins gets lured by an opposing team to start for them next season as they groom a young quarterback.

Now, this is a good problem to have, as i'd love to ride Todd Collins all the way to the SB. However, I'd really miss the insurance policy of having Collins backing up Jason Campbell next season. Just look at how Peyton Mannings backup performed this evening when Peyton Manning left the game.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Do you feel he will be lured out of Washington?

[drums and skins]

Not going to happen.

He's too old and pretty much performs THIS system.

Basically, the Skins is his perfect fit. Won't really do much elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure everyone else knows this.

[MonkFan8]

I don't see any team looking for QB investing in a 37 year old career backup, no matter how amazingly he's played. I hope we keep him, we've certainly seen the power of having a capable backup.

That said, he's been waiting 10 years for a shot as a starter, I wouldn't blame him for leaving if he was offered a starting job. I still think it'd be highly unlikely, though.

[terpfan]

Not going to happen.

He's too old and pretty much performs THIS system.

Basically, the Skins is his perfect fit. Won't really do much elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure everyone else knows this.
Thats my thinking. We will resign him to be the super-backup again, and he will get a nice pay raise. Everybody wins!

[ashsra]

I think a lot depends on how badly he wants to be a full time starter again and obviously if he wants to learn a new offense at 36. I'm sure the Skins will try to resign him for good money, but if he demands to be the starter or something that could be an issue.

[morapale]

Collins should be the starting QB next season.

He is far better than Campbell.

:dallasuck

[dinzelwashington]

are people that dumb to even think this. todd collins is our herooooooooooo.. how can this even come to mind, let alone a thread be made...

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

If he keeps this up I hope he starts for us next season as well

[dcoles11]

Not going to happen.

He's too old and pretty much performs THIS system.

Basically, the Skins is his perfect fit. Won't really do much elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure everyone else knows this.

That sounds logical but you forget how bad some of the GMs in the NFL are. This wouldn't be the first time a back up QB came in a played well for a few games and then got a big contract from another team starved for good QB play.

Right of the top of my head I can think of:

A.J Feeley and the Dolphins.
Elvis Grbac and the Ravens.

Help me out here i'm drawing a blank but I know there are more.

[arrowhead]

Trent Green might be a Parcells house cleaning casualty, so I'd like to think we could make a play for him if Collins found a gig elsewhere. Sure, he's got more mileage than Collins, but he could step in almost immediately if it played out that way. Speaking of Parcells, I wonder if he still has Bledsoe on speed dial to come in return the Dolphins to the "salad years" of a pocket passer (i.e. Marino), or if he'll seek out another Quincy Carter. What am I saying, its the Dolphins, who cares?? :laugh: :D :silly:

[kubstix]

I don't see any team looking for QB investing in a 37 year old career backup, no matter how amazingly he's played. I hope we keep him, we've certainly seen the power of having a capable backup.

That said, he's been waiting 10 years for a shot as a starter, I wouldn't blame him for leaving if he was offered a starting job. I still think it'd be highly unlikely, though.

Really and what about Vinny T, Brad Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins, JEFF GARCIA. How do you figure nobody is going to be out to get this guy?

[Dingani]

The more wins we have over quality opponents and the deeper we get into the playoffs, the more likely Todd Collins gets lured by an opposing team to start for them next season as they groom a young quarterback.

Now, this is a good problem to have, as i'd love to ride Todd Collins all the way to the SB. However, I'd really miss the insurance policy of having Collins backing up Jason Campbell next season. Just look at how Peyton Mannings backup performed this evening when Peyton Manning left the game.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Do you feel he will be lured out of Washington?

I personally think this idea that Collins is leaving is just plain stupid. Its also dumb. Its also without merit. Anyone who talks about Collins leaving this team knows VERY little about football in the NFL or the cap situation, etc.

Collins is a product of the Al Saunders system. So was Trent Green. Both QB's need all the working parts of the system to be successful. Trent Green was injured earlier this year in Miami but when he was healthy he was not very good. He had no tight end. He did not have a running game. And he was a "duck out of water" without the Al Saunders system. Miami learned the hard way that you just don't hire 37 year old quarterbacks from one system and expect that they will be an instant success in a new system with unfamiliar working parts.

Fast forward to next spring. Yes everybody wants Todd Collins as a backup QB. But nobody will offer him a multi year deal with a 6 million dollar bonus to start. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. He is coming back to the Redskins, although he will certainly get a raise.

BUT....do look for Mark Brunell to leave after June 1.

[MonkFan8]

Really and what about Vinny T, Brad Johnson, Drew Bledsoe, Kerry Collins, JEFF GARCIA. How do you figure nobody is going to be out to get this guy?Reading comprehension is your friend...

The only starter out of the aged QB's you listed is Garcia. None of those other QB's will ever be named a starter for a season again. Could Collins draw the same interest as Garcia? Maybe. However, Garcia been alot more productive over the past 10 years than Collins has.

Don't get me wrong, I love Todd and what he's done for us, and I'd like to see us find a way to keep him on board. If he's offered a starting job, then I could see him going elsewhere.

[Seabee1973]

That sounds logical but you forget how bad some of the GMs in the NFL are. This wouldn't be the first time a back up QB came in a played well for a few games and then got a big contract from another team starved for good QB play.

Right of the top of my head I can think of:

A.J Feeley and the Dolphins.
Elvis Grbac and the Ravens.

Help me out here i'm drawing a blank but I know there are more.

Grbac Started a few years with the chiefs and left as a free agent

[SearchHorizon]

Fast forward to next spring. Yes everybody wants Todd Collins as a backup QB. But nobody will offer him a multi year deal with a 6 million dollar bonus to start. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. He is coming back to the Redskins, although he will certainly get a raise.

BUT....do look for Mark Brunell to leave after June 1.
Another possibility is that A Saunders is offered a starting coaching job, and Collins leaves WITH Saunders as a starting QB (credit to Oldfan for thinking of this possibility).

[Dingani]

Reading comprehension is your friend...

The only starter out of the aged QB's you listed is Garcia. None of those other QB's will ever be named a starter for a season again. Could Collins draw the same interest as Garcia? Maybe. However, Garcia been alot more productive over the past 10 years than Collins has.

Don't get me wrong, I love Todd and what he's done for us, and I'd like to see us find a way to keep him on board. If he's offered a starting job, then I could see him going elsewhere.

Well bringing up Garcia simply makes my point. Garcia is a system QB who failed in Cleveland because he is a system QB. Now that he is back in the west coast offense with Gruden he is successful. He was successful in Philly because it was a west coast offense. Put him in another system and he would flop.

But Todd Collins is not 34 or 35 years old. He is going to be a 37 year old QB and no other team outside of Kansas City would be close to the Al Saunder system.

No no. Todd Collins is not going anywhere unless somebody very foolish would think that a 37 year old system QB could come in and save their franchise using a totally different system with unfamiliar parts. Not likely to happen since the fools in Miami now have Bill Parcells running the show.

[SearchHorizon]

Collins is a product of the Al Saunders system. So was Trent Green. Both QB's need all the working parts of the system to be successful. Trent Green was injured earlier this year in Miami but when he was healthy he was not very good.
I gotta disagree with you.

Trent Green was good in Norv's system also. In fact, he was wanted here.

It is also possible that TC is as talented as Trent Green, if not more.

TC may well be very good in another offensive scheme.

[MonkFan8]

Well bringing up Garcia simply makes my point. Garcia is a system QB who failed in Cleveland because he is a system QB. Now that he is back in the west coast offense with Gruden he is successful. He was successful in Philly because it was a west coast offense. Put him in another system and he would flop.

But Todd Collins is not 34 or 35 years old. He is going to be a 37 year old QB and no other team outside of Kansas City would be close to the Al Saunder system.

No no. Todd Collins is not going anywhere unless somebody very foolish would think that a 37 year old system QB could come in and save their franchise using a totally different system with unfamiliar parts. Not likely to happen since the fools in Miami now have Bill Parcells running the show.I never responded to your post. In fact, I agree with your first post 100%.

I'm merely stating that if some team for whatever reason decides to offer Todd a starting job, then I wouldn't blame him one bit for taking it. However unlikely it may be.

[abdcskins]

God I hope not. This is certainly a big topic of debate, but Todd Collins has played so well I think we should resign him and at least allow him to compete for the starting job next year in preseason. He makes better decisions and is more accurate. Jason Campbell is obviously our future and has more potential, but I think Todd has earned that. Don't fix what isn't broken.

[drums and skins]

That sounds logical but you forget how bad some of the GMs in the NFL are. This wouldn't be the first time a back up QB came in a played well for a few games and then got a big contract from another team starved for good QB play.

Right of the top of my head I can think of:

A.J Feeley and the Dolphins.
Elvis Grbac and the Ravens.

Help me out here i'm drawing a blank but I know there are more.

Feeley was young (4th year) when he went to the fins.
Grbac had MANY starts, was only in his 8th year (when he signed on board with the ravens) and the previous season threw >4000 yards and 28 TDs.

Collins isn't going anywhere. Sure, he can "test" the market, but he'll just end up straight back here with a pay raise because he proved that he IS the insurance policy to have.

[Dingani]

Another possibility is that A Saunders is offered a starting coaching job, and Collins leaves WITH Saunders as a starting QB (credit to Oldfan for thinking of this possibility).

I do not think that will happen, and here;s why. I believe, really believe that this is a team right now. All these guys pull for each other like family. And after Sean;s death, it just seems to me that if somebody left they would be viewed as a traiter and abandoning the family after a tragedy.

I know its a business but this tragedy has bonded these people and I do NOT think or feel that anybody will leave this team because they will be looked at as a person who leaves his friends during their time of need.

I could be wrong but I am sensing this. Maybe its the force or something but I sense it. Time will tell.

[SkinsFanMania]

I gotta disagree with you.

Trent Green was good in Norv's system also. In fact, he was wanted here.

It is also possible that TC is as talented as Trent Green, if not more.

TC may well be very good in another offensive scheme.

Norv's system is a variation of Joe Gibbs system, in other words it has similarities to Al Saunders system.

[SearchHorizon]

I do not think that will happen, and here;s why. I believe, really believe that this is a team right now. All these guys pull for each other like family. And after Sean;s death, it just seems to me that if somebody left they would be viewed as a traiter and abandoning the family after a tragedy.

I know its a business but this tragedy has bonded these people and I do NOT think or feel that anybody will leave this team because they will be looked at as a person who leaves his friends during their time of need.

I could be wrong but I am sensing this. Maybe its the force or something but I sense it. Time will tell.
I understand what you are saying, and I respect your views.

I think if TC is offered a job that pays 3 x as much (or more), he has to take it. I agree he has a responsibility to his teammates, but I also think he has a greater responsibility to his family, to those who have hung in there with him to succeed.

The same goes for Saunders. If he is offered a real, genuine head coaching opportunity, he HAS to take it.

[SearchHorizon]

Norv's system is a variation of Joe Gibbs system, in other words it has similarities to Al Saunders system.
I believe Norv's system is closer to the current Dallas's system. Jason Garrett, who runs Dallas's offense, was a backup to Aikman when Norv was there.

Al Saunders' offense is completely different from Gibbs, though they share the commong root and some philosophy of Air Coryell.

[Dingani]

I understand what you are saying, and I respect your views.

I think if TC is offered a job that pays 3 x as much (or more), he has to take it. I agree he has a responsibility to his teammates, but I also think he has a greater responsibility to his family, to those who have hung in there with him to succeed.

The same goes for Saunders. If he is offered a real, genuine head coaching opportunity, he HAS to take it.

I have NEVER said Todd Collins would turn down an offer for THREE times the money. However, what money are we talking about. If the Skins give him a 2 year deal with a 2 million dollar bonus and a ONE million dollar salary, then somebody has to offer a SIX million dollar bonus plus a starting guarantee.

That, I do not see happening with a 37 year old QB simply because established teams, playoff team's needs are different from losing teams starting over. Miami only gave Trent Green a chance because they thought they were a playoff team. I can't think of anyone except Chicago who is a playoff caliber team just in need of a QB and I don;t think Todd fits that team very well. He is actually too Rex Grossman like as far as his throwing arm. I think Chicago wants a gunslinger who can compete with Farve.

Just trust me. Todd will not be leaving this team and Snyder will not let him leave....unless..unless...somebody is insane and offers him a 3 year deal for 12 million dollars. AT 37 years of age? Not likely.

[Newera]

Don't be so sure. If Todd continues to play at his present level, and we are a better team with him continuing to play at this level, we would be stupid to not consider him as a starter next year -- particularly if Al Saunders is back. His quarterback rating in his four games has been in the 100's . It's not a fluke anymore. He's the hottest quarterback in the NFC right now. Let's see how these playoffs turn out.

This guy has never had an opportunity to start in the last ten years and now is making the most of his opportunity. He's put more money in his pocket. His consistency, decision making and high level of play makes us a better team. We've averaged 26 points a game since he's played.

I would hate to let him go only because Jason is young. Jason is the future, but Todd could be "The Now." Jason can learn a lot playing behind Todd next year and watching him run this offense at a higher level. I think the job should be Todd's until he loses it or get's injured at this point. Otherwise, why would he even want to come back here. He's hot. Kind of reminds me of Trent Green a few years ago for us.

The way Todd is playing right now, we are actually looking dumb for not playing the guy a few years earlier. You can't over think this. You can't be biased here or Jason Campbell (blind defensive). It's about performance regardless of age in my book. This guy right now is playing the position the best in the NFC right now. It reminds me when Brady came in and replaced Bledsoe in New England a few years ago, when it had always been Drew's team. After all, Drew was the high pick, right?

Well, Brady (another non-descript Michigan quarterback) came in a led them to the Super Bowl and still people were saying it was still Bledsoe's team. Well, Brady was just better then Bledsoe then and is better then him now. Belecheik (sp) was like 1 and 4 when Drew went down, Tom came in and they won the Super Bowl and have not looked back. They then finally jettisoned Bledsoe.

My point: Right now we are a better team with Todd at the helm. I wouldn't mess with the chemistry. We are finally seeing the fruits of Saunders offense in full bloom. We are lucky to have both Todd and Jason.

Plus, the only we will be able to resign Todd in my opinion next year is with talk of him, at the miniumum, being the guy next year.

Knowing Gibbs temperment, I also think he's falling in love with Todd, and has always had a preference for veterens anyway, thus his Brunnell love. Well, I think he's starting to have that same affinity with Todd now as well.

Remember when he had to make a choice between the young developing Ramsey and Mark Brunell a few years ago and switched to Mark. It could see him doing the same next year with Todd over Jason. However, I could see Jason getting the job back for good if Todd goes down.

I think Todd will be the Skins biggest offseason priority with a promise of being able to compete for the starting job with Jason next year. However, that still may not be enough to re-sign him. He may want a guarantee to start and Gibbs may not give him that guarantee. Todd is truly taking advantage of his opportunity. It should be interesting. Todd does need to consider his connection with this offense.

Remember, Trent Green has not been the same since Saunders left. It's nice to see Todd excell, if anything, he's not playing like a back up any longer.

It's all been kind of errie this year guys. The magic and true leadership of Joe Gibbs.
Everything that has happened to this team this year has happened for a reason, the unfortunate tragic death of Sean, Jason going down, Todd coming in and excelling. Winning by 21. It's all happened for a reason, let's ride it. This could be special.

[Bacon]

Hmm...cut Mark Brunell to help pay for Todd Collins, or cut Todd Collins and keep Mark Brunell?

Let me...

Let me think...

[RedskinzOwnU]

TC is more valuable to the skins than any other franchise. Physically, he is not very gifted. He doesn't have much arm strength and his pocket mobility is extremely limited as evidenced today. But, what he has is a keen understanding of the playbook. He is 100% there mentally, which makes up for some physical deficiencies. If he goes to another team he will have to learn a new system and a new offense, and the one advantage that he has in our offense disappears. I don't think there will be much demand for him, and the team would be wise to cut Brunell and keep Collins around. I don't think it should cost much.

[PCRoughrider]

I believe Norv's system is closer to the current Dallas's system. Jason Garrett, who runs Dallas's offense, was a backup to Aikman when Norv was there.

Al Saunders' offense is completely different from Gibbs, though they share the commong root and some philosophy of Air Coryell.

Actually, Al Saunders' system is a variation of Mike Martz's system which is a variation of Norv Turner's system which is a variation of Don Coryell's system.

Joe Gibbs' system is another variation of Air Coryell.

[SearchHorizon]

Actually, Al Saunders' system is a variation of Mike Martz's system which is a variation of Norv Turner's system which is a variation of Don Coryell's system.

Joe Gibbs' system is another variation of Air Coryell.
Yes, I know that, I was not just as detailed.:silly:

You are missing the point -- the point being, Saunders' offense and Gibbs offense, while they share a lineage, are very different. TC's knowledge of Saunders' offense doesn't help him with specifically with Gibbs offense.

[PCRoughrider]

Yes, I know that, I was not just as detailed.:silly:

To get a little more detailed, the actual connection between Turner and Coryell is Ernie Zampese.

...so it's really:

Al Saunders' system is a variation of Mike Martz's system which is a variation of Norv Turner's system which is a variation of Don Coryell's system, by way of Ernie Zampese who was Coryell's offensive coordinator with the Chargers and mentored Turner when they were both on the Rams' coaching staff. :D

[CluelessFanQie]

Collins will be here next year, Brunell will not....

[Veretax]

This is tough question, if I was him I'd want to stay with what was familiar, but you just don't know. wouldn't blame him if he is gone, but I'd rather keep him and cut Scott Brunnel :D

[RBClintonPortis]

I am not a psychic. Heaven knows what is in Collins heart and head or that of the Redskins’ coaches and FO. Having said that, I think most football players want to play football, get paid and win – in some order of varying weighted importance – everyone is different.



PLAY FOOTBALL/WIN

I think the Vikings, Bears and Baltimore are teams that see themselves as ~10-6 possible teams with the right QB and really have no viable answer at QB and a short window to buy one to make this happen (like Tampa last year).



I think the Jets, Buffalo, and (heaven please)maybe Philly think the same thing but may believe that they have a reasonable answer at QB and won’t go hard on the $$ for TC (I would add the ‘skins in this group) but would probably talk to TC.



PLAY FOOTBALL

To me less attractive offers than being Redskins back-up but still “players” in the drama – who might write a big check and guarantee him starter status: The Raiders offered Garcia the chance to start last year and money near the $4Mil.mark and the Falcons offered less but still more than back-up money to back up Vick. If anything I would expect both teams to be more desperate this off-season.



GETPAID

The Redskins are a team $20million over the Salary cap. TC is an unrestricted free agent currently making $1.2 million.



Garcia being 36 is the most obvious parallel to TC – going on an end of the year tear last year and getting a big ~5Mil. p/yr contract off that



Jake Plummer was 33 and owed about $7Million when Tampa traded for him last summer The Contract Steve McNair signed at 34 with the Ravens last summer was for 5 yrs 32Mil. but was "really" a 3 yr 20mil. Contract

The Contract trent Green signed with the Dophins in June - when he was a month shy of 37 was 3 years $13 Mil.

Should he win or play comeptantly and lose in Sattle and/or Dallas I do not belive it is insane to think that TC's "number" is in the $4-7Mill p/yr for 2-3 yrs range (probably in the middle of that range).

BOTTOM_LINE

Due to the Salary Cap all NFL Teams can spend more for TC than the Skins can - at least at this point.

There isn’t going to be any QB as good as TC has been the last 3 weeks in free agency - and it really isn't even close

http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html (http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html)

I doubt the Skins will guarantee him going into camp the starting job – “his to lose “ as they say.*

I doubt the Skins can or will come close to matching the $$ that he will be offered in the free market.*

Barring a horrific 5 pick/fumbling 60 yrd passing effort in the next 3 weeks, or a Theisman-like injury, [none of which any of us want to see] I think folks who see TC as a lock for next years Training camp based on some kind of love for Saunders or “the system” are dreaming


*Throw all the above & the skins pay the money and guarentee him starter statusif TC is the starter in the Super bowl & possibly if he starts in the NFC Champsionship witha 106 QB rating.

[9_to_42_td]

The more wins we have over quality opponents and the deeper we get into the playoffs, the more likely Todd Collins gets lured by an opposing team to start for them next season as they groom a young quarterback.

Now, this is a good problem to have, as i'd love to ride Todd Collins all the way to the SB. However, I'd really miss the insurance policy of having Collins backing up Jason Campbell next season. Just look at how Peyton Mannings backup performed this evening when Peyton Manning left the game.

Anyway, what are your thoughts? Do you feel he will be lured out of Washington?


Look at the bright side, we still have Brunell waiting in the wings.

[Oldfan]

Another possibility is that A Saunders is offered a starting coaching job, and Collins leaves WITH Saunders as a starting QB (credit to Oldfan for thinking of this possibility).

I appreciate the citation.

IMO:

The Todd Collins star has risen and carried Al's reputation up with it. The deeper we go into the playoffs, the higher the risk of losing either or both in the offseason.

Offensive coordinators who can make a passing game work are a rare commodity in the NFL. The head coaching job is the prize teams have to offer to bring one in. NFL executives now realize that Al doesn't need overwhelming talent to get the job done.

Todd Collins at 37 is healthier than young Jason Campbell. He would cheat himself and his family if he didn't end up somewhere as a starting QB for a couple of years. He fits any program based on the Coryell timing element. If Philip Rivers doesn't wake up in the playoffs, it wouldn't shock me to read that A.J Smith had signed Todd to a big bucks three-year contract out in San Diego. I think Todd might be interested in that job. Don't you?

[clubisyohankovic]

I don't see any team looking for QB investing in a 37 year old career backup, no matter how amazingly he's played. I hope we keep him, we've certainly seen the power of having a capable backup.

Yeah, that's the thing. He's certainly not going to get starter money, but if he wanted to go to the highest bidder, there might be teams that can afford to give him more than the Skins to be their backup, or possibly a 1-year stopgap for their kid quarterback of choice.

Look at how many 35-40 year old backups there are out there. There's lots.

[skinsbosoxheels]

Collins is the BEST QB I have seen in a Skins uniform in the past 10 years.

[CLBinMD]

An imbecilic owner who will crazily overpay for something he doesn't really need?!?!?

Nah....never happen....TC will be back!!

All kidding aside, who knows? If he's offered a big day & he wants to take it, then good for him. He's earned it. Thanks for everything, good luck, God-speed!!!

Hopefully, he's the kind of guy who would be willing to stay for the most the 'Skins can offer under the right set of circumstances. If he's thinking of a future in the game beyond his playing days, that might actually be attractive to him for a couple of reasons.

An early post in this thread indicated that he was better than JC. He's better than JC...right NOW...is more accurate. The difference is the ability to read the field & make the right decision quickly. Look at how much more quickly the ball is coming out of his hands. That, in turn, gives Saunders the confidence to go beyond the letter "A" in that Yellow Pages of a play book he lugs around.

If you could find a way to get TC's brain into JC's head, the sky would be the limit for that kid. Make that part of the sales pitch. TC, what do you want to do with the rest of your life? If it's coach, let's get started. Bring the family to town & get settled. We'll pay you as much as we can to backup & spot start. Meanwhile, keep working with JC & start building your resume as a QB coach.

There have been a few guys successfully go this route... Gary Kubiak and Jason Garrett are a couple who come to mind right away.

[JWB]

The moment TC stepped on Redskin 1 to visit his wife in the hospital was the moment he became a lifetime Redskin! Nobody's going anywhere. With the Maximum protection he gets, he may become the New Earl Morral (Baltimore Colts) and the Don Strock from Miami.

[gortiz]

Collins should be the starting QB next season.

He is far better than Campbell.

:dallasuck


What was your take on Brunell before the 05 season? Heck, what did you think of the skins 4 weeks ago?

Be smart okay?

[SB17]

Count me in as one who believes TC will stay here in Washington. I don't think Al Saunders will be offerred a head coaching job because of how long it takes an offense to learn his system. Because of salary cap issues and the current state of the offense under TC's leadership, I believe the Redskins will cut Mark Brunell. We all know how Coach Gibbs wants to have a veteran QB (or two) on the squad, and with Jason having two injuries this year (remember the knee injury in the pre-season?), there's enough instability at that position for Coach Gibbs to justify offering TC an attractive contract, as a "thank you" for this year and as insurance for next year.



How the FO works out the Redskins' salary cap issues will be very interesting to watch, but somehow they always do it, so I'll try not to concern myself with how they're going to get it done, since they've always done it in the past.



HTTR!

[BillyKilmer]

Face it Todd deserves a payday and the Redskins may not be the team best able to do it.

We have a hefty salary commited to Jason

Now we may be able to combine Brunells money and Todd's too keep him.

Gibbs knows how important good QB talent is, but we won't be finically stupid if some team overpays Todd. Todd is not this teams future but he is our NOW!!

[BillyKilmer]

What was your take on Brunell before the 05 season? Heck, what did you think of the skins 4 weeks ago?

Be smart okay?

Excellent point

[Campbell's_da_man]

It's time for the front office to do something smart on this one!!!

[posse87]

He is 36 years old. He knows Saunders system like the back of his hands. He is not a QB to rebuild with. Unless Gibbs leaves, the skins will dump Brunnel, give Collins a significant pay raise and he will be happy because he knows the system and will make more money in the last couple of years of his career. Other teams aren't going to be interested in signing him to a big money long term contract.

[HigSkin]

We have him in there right now and he's been a part of winning the last 4 games. That's all anybody should care about right now!


:)

[posse87]

I appreciate the citation.

IMO:

The Todd Collins star has risen and carried Al's reputation up with it. The deeper we go into the playoffs, the higher the risk of losing either or both in the offseason.

Offensive coordinators who can make a passing game work are a rare commodity in the NFL. The head coaching job is the prize teams have to offer to bring one in. NFL executives now realize that Al doesn't need overwhelming talent to get the job done.

Todd Collins at 37 is healthier than young Jason Campbell. He would cheat himself and his family if he didn't end up somewhere as a starting QB for a couple of years. He fits any program based on the Coryell timing element. If Philip Rivers doesn't wake up in the playoffs, it wouldn't shock me to read that A.J Smith had signed Todd to a big bucks three-year contract out in San Diego. I think Todd might be interested in that job. Don't you?


So you are saying SD will give up on Rivers? Because that would be an awful move for Rivers career if they hope to keep him improving.

[SkinsFanAnt]

Honestly, there are sooo many mediocre starting QBs in the league right now that a bad team like the Falcons, Chiefs, or Dolphins will take the risk to at least get them out of a hole.

[MartinC]

Collins is being successful because of his understanding of our system. Put him in another system and his marginal physical ability will show through - any team which offers him a starting job and money is making a mistake. He probably realises that himself.


If someone does offer him the moon on a stick good luck to him and I wish him well.

We should offer him a good two year deal to be our #2 and insurance policy in case Jason does not make the progress we all hope. We might even sweeten the pot with the promise of a coaching gig after the two years if he wants to go that way.

In the meantime lets hope he continues to play at the level he has the last few weeks and takes us deep into the playoffs.

[Oldfan]

So you are saying SD will give up on Rivers? Because that would be an awful move for Rivers career if they hope to keep him improving.

They have a three to four year window of opportunity to be Super Bowl contenders in San Diego. Playing with a far superior supporting cast this season, Rivers has numbers on a par with Campbell's.

That would present a test of my patience and A.J. Smith doesn't strike me as the patient type.

[TheLongshot]

It is going to be interesting to see what he decides to do, and how much real interest there will be for him.

On one hand, he's gone out there and shown what he can do, and it has been top notch. On the other hand, he's 36 years old and part of the reason why he's so successful is because of his knowledge of Saunders' system. Could he have similar success in someone else's system, particularly since he doesn't have a strong arm?

If someone does give him a big chance to start elsewhere, I think it would be hard to pass up.

Jason

[SkinsFanMania]

I believe Norv's system is closer to the current Dallas's system. Jason Garrett, who runs Dallas's offense, was a backup to Aikman when Norv was there.

Al Saunders' offense is completely different from Gibbs, though they share the commong root and some philosophy of Air Coryell.

The common root and philosophy is what I meant.

Norv Turner learned from Erne Zampese when he was in Los Angeles. Erne Zampese was the co offensive coordinator with Joe Gibbs under Coryell. Norv has a similar philosphy as Joe Gibbs and Al Saunders with a much less complex offense.

[Oldfan]

"I'm just going to continue to go out there and go through my progressions and get the ball off in time," Collins said. "

Don Coryell popularized the idea of having the QB make his reads in a natural progression. The idea of having the QB anticipate the open man was one of Sid Gillman's theories. I think that all Coryell-based schemes have these things in common.

As a logical deduction, we can expect that a quick release and first-rate accuracy are required to run these schemes well.

[Redskins4ever]

Collins has already said that he doesn't want to learn another offense. Perhaps he's great in this particular offense. I don't see him going anywhere. I think Dan Snyder will pull out the checkbook and keep Collins here with the Redskins.

[SearchHorizon]

Don Coryell popularized the idea of having the QB make his reads in a natural progression. The idea of having the QB anticipate the open man was one of Sid Gillman's theories. I think that all Coryell-based schemes have these things in common.

As a logical deduction, we can expect that a quick release and first-rate accuracy are required to run these schemes well.
Sure, but I think A Saunders takes those ideas to another level.

Saunders offense doesn't execute anything like Gibbs offense at all.

[paloosa]

I say he stays because of Al Saunders and Joe Gibbs. He knows the system and he knows that Jason is the guy of the future. I wouldn't be a bit surprise that he retires in a year or two and becomes a QB coach with either the Redskins or somewhere where Al Saunders is coaching. The guy is smart and knows the system we run.

[Oldfan]

Sure, but I think A Saunders takes those ideas to another level.

Saunders offense doesn't execute anything like Gibbs offense at all.

Joe believes that you use the run to set up the pass. Al wants to use the pass to set up the run underneath. Joe would run 60% of the time, Al would pass 60% of the time. Al believes in volume and unpredictability. Joe wants to run the same play time and again until you stop it. Al uses his RB as a receiver, Joe uses him more as a blocker in the pass game. There are a lot of differences.

But, it's the basic Coryell structure of the passing game that we're talking about. Both design their passing plays so that the QB goes through a natural progression of reads and anticipates the receiver coming open. Both require their receivers to run precise patterns.

[cphil006]

He's 37 and plays well in this offense... He will have a job here next year as #2. Brunell is gone...

[professor21]

I really want Todd to get a SB Ring, I'm willing to bet if he earned one it would justify his 10 years riding the bench and working hard, such a great under-dog story. And after the season he would gracefully accept backup role and not move to another team, and help pour out his rain-man brain to our Future QB jason.

one game at a time though, I hope Gibbs is smart enough not to bench him.

[redman]

Collins' prospects are either to stay here and play backup in an offensive system that he's mastered and that he plays well in, or to go to another team that needs to patch a hole at QB with a veteran for a year or two while they look for a longer term solution (Minny? Miami? Chicago?).

The latter will likely yield better money for him, and I suspect that with the way he's talked about having waited so long for an opportunity, he wants a chance to start again and see what he can do.

[AUskins]

Collins should be the starting QB next season.

He is far better than Campbell.

:dallasuck

Absolutely, Campbell played a year, if he was even decent he would have avoided injury and be in the pro bowl by now like all the other young QBs. Just waive him and lets get on the Collins train and let him create a new dynasty. He can probably play until 47 or so. We need to resign Brunell and we can talk Testaverde out of retirement and go forward with 3 very veteran QBs with an average age of 40.

Who has time to develop players in the NFL anymore anyway? I mean the Falcons figured out Brett Favre was a bust within a few years at Atlanta.

If all else fails we can trade away our draft picks this year for another veteran QB who is appriaching 40.

[STBonecrusher21]

Absolutely, Campbell played a year, if he was even decent he would have avoided injury and be in the pro bowl by now like all the other young QBs. Just waive him and lets get on the Collins train and let him create a new dynasty. He can probably play until 47 or so. We need to resign Brunell and we can talk Testaverde out of retirement and go forward with 3 very veteran QBs with an average age of 40.

Who has time to develop players in the NFL anymore anyway? I mean the Falcons figured out Brett Favre was a bust within a few years at Atlanta.

If all else fails we can trade away our draft picks this year for another veteran QB who is appriaching 40.

I thought you were being serious for a minute. :laugh:

I like that Brett Favre comment. Maybe the worst move the Falcons ever made.

[ColdnGrey]

TC retires at the end of the season and becomes the QB coach in DC. Book it.

[mcarey032]

He is going to get his money up, there is no question about that. I don't about Saunders getting a job elsewhere either. I don't know how many openings outside of Atlanta are going to be available. There is Miami, but it sounds to me that job will be filled with Dallas people. I think that Marvin Lewis saved his job and I don't think that the Rams coach will be fired. Therefore, I feel that Saunders and Collins will get a pay bump from us and Mark Brunell might have happy trails.

[Vicious]

I think if TC goes we should all thank him and then in the future get him back in our organization in a coaching role. He's a hero here.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

TC retires at the end of the season and becomes the QB coach in DC. Book it.

That's so idiotic it made my teeth hurt.

Todd is going to get something in the neighborhood of a two-year/five million contract this off-season because of these past four games.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Collins' prospects are either to stay here and play backup in an offensive system that he's mastered and that he plays well in, or to go to another team that needs to patch a hole at QB with a veteran for a year or two while they look for a longer term solution (Minny? Miami? Chicago?).

The latter will likely yield better money for him, and I suspect that with the way he's talked about having waited so long for an opportunity, he wants a chance to start again and see what he can do.

He's 37, and he's suddenly looking at an unexpected windfall. He is going to go somewhere with a desperate QB situation for a few million bucks. I see him playing the Kurt Warner role in Miami next year.

[MartinC]

He's 37, and he's suddenly looking at an unexpected windfall. He is going to go somewhere with a desperate QB situation for a few million bucks. I see him playing the Kurt Warner role in Miami next year.

Which would be ironic given he would be taking over from Trent Green (kinda) who he spent most of his adult life backing up.

I agree if he gets an offer of a starting gig and a two year deal with good guaranteed money he would be a fool to pass it up. I also think though that teams are going to understand that he is a product of his comfort level in Saunders system and not offer anything really enticing. As for the Dolphins Parcells is no idiot so unless he decided to Cam Cameron (racing certainty) and replace him with Al Saunders as HC (cant see it - not his type of offense) then I can't see him going for Collins.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

Which would be ironic given he would be taking over from Trent Green (kinda) who he spent most of his adult life backing up.

I agree if he gets an offer of a starting gig and a two year deal with good guaranteed money he would be a fool to pass it up. I also think though that teams are going to understand that he is a product of his comfort level in Saunders system and not offer anything really enticing. As for the Dolphins Parcells is no idiot so unless he decided to Cam Cameron (racing certainty) and replace him with Al Saunders as HC (cant see it - not his type of offense) then I can't see him going for Collins.

It doesn't matter who the QB is in Miami next year, because they are most likely going to draft someone. Unless the do something dramatic and try to get Derrick Anderson, they aren't going to find their QB of the future in Free Agency.

Collins is more than capable apparently of going 6-10 and keeping thing professional while Parcells tries to straighten that team out.

Unless he brings back Drew Bledsoe....

[SearchHorizon]

Collins is more than capable apparently of going 6-10 and keeping thing professional while Parcells tries to straighten that team out.
Especially if Parcells hires Al Saunders as his head coach.

[skinfan2k]

Would Bischotti want Saunders? An offensive guy while keeping Rex Ryan in place? Collins could groom either Matt Ryan(likely draftee) or (Brian Brohm)

[SearchHorizon]

Would Bischotti want Saunders?
That may depend on how long is he willing to live with pain of losing games, until his team turns around ...

[Riggo-toni]

Another possibility is that A Saunders is offered a starting coaching job, and Collins leaves WITH Saunders as a starting QB (credit to Oldfan for thinking of this possibility).

This is EXACTLY what I've been thinking, especially since Billick got fired. The Ravens' O is setup closely to what Saunders had in KC, and the team already has a great D. Saunders could make them instant contenders again. :(

Hopefully Dan opens up the wallet and keeps them both. If Collins manages to win more than one playoff game and we're able to retain Saunders another year, I want Collins, not JC, starting next year.

[fansince62]

Absolutely, Campbell played a year, if he was even decent he would have avoided injury and be in the pro bowl by now like all the other young QBs. Just waive him and lets get on the Collins train and let him create a new dynasty. He can probably play until 47 or so. We need to resign Brunell and we can talk Testaverde out of retirement and go forward with 3 very veteran QBs with an average age of 40.

Who has time to develop players in the NFL anymore anyway? I mean the Falcons figured out Brett Favre was a bust within a few years at Atlanta.

If all else fails we can trade away our draft picks this year for another veteran QB who is appriaching 40.

lmao!!!!

[skinfan2k]

Hopefully Dan opens up the wallet and keeps them both. If Collins manages to win more than one playoff game and we're able to retain Saunders another year, I want Collins, not JC, starting next year.

Only if he goes to the NFC championship maybe

[Coolkid67]

Collins should be the starting QB next season.

He is far better than Campbell.

:dallasuck

Amen! Collins has outperformed Campbell enough that he deserves the starting spot, even if its only for a few years.

Campbell's not going anywhere...

[LApunkrocker72]

We should sign Todd Collins to an extension immediately. Jason Campbell may be the QB of the future but Collins is the QB of the present.

[Dirk Diggler]

The Al Sauders becoming a head coach ship has sailed, fellas. He's 60 now, and if it was going to happen, it would have happened following one of his stellar seasons coordinating KC's offense. Someone tell me the last time a 60 year old was hired to become a head coach without a HOF resume (ala Gibbs, Parcells, etc)???? It's a young man's game, even on the sidelines. Saunders isn't going anywhere.

Now Collins, that could be a different story. But let's just enjoy the ride.

[skinfan2k]

Amen! Collins has outperformed Campbell enough that he deserves the starting spot, even if its only for a few years.

Campbell's not going anywhere...

Win Now Mentality, that has helped immensly. :laugh:

[tonyriggins]

I think it is true that without a system like our Todd Collins would proabley struggle. But they are teams with smilar offenses. What if Marvin Lewis says Todd we want you back in KC, we have lost 9 straight games. I cant promise you more money than Snyder but I can promise you this if you are the best QB in preseason you WILL be named the starter. Can the Redskins guarnteen you this?

[tonyriggins]

And I can picture Marvin Lewis saying that and I can see Collins moving back.

[Oldfan]

And I can picture Marvin Lewis saying that and I can see Collins moving back.

If Todd is smart, he won't believe Marvin since Herm Edwards is the coach in KC.

[SearchHorizon]

Only if he goes to the NFC championship maybe
How deep we go into the playoffs will probably have a lot to do with how much pressure the outsiders will exert to dismantle our staff (players + coaches).

Hope the Oldfan is wrong, of course. :D

[NewCliche21]

Not going to happen.

He's too old and pretty much performs THIS system.

Basically, the Skins is his perfect fit. Won't really do much elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure everyone else knows this.

I don't see how the thread kept going after this picture-perfect point.

[prophet]

Collins should be the starting QB next season.

He is far better than Campbell.

:dallasuck
If he keeps playing like this he should be in the mix for starter next season.

[SlinginSammy HOF '63]

we definitely need to keep him here and open up the starting QB job for competition next season. JC is the future, but I think he'd greatly benefit from some more time learning the system. Some QBs usually contribute immediately while some need time to adjust to the pro game. While JC showed flashes of brilliance this year he also made some dumb, untimely mistakes.