JLC- The Collins Conundrum

[Buford]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/




Posted at 1:23 PM ET, 01/ 3/2008

The Collins Conundrum

I'm getting more and more emails asking my take about the quarterback situation, so I'll throw my two cents out there.

Ride Todd for now - though I personally would not be opposed to giving Jason Campbell a shot should he get healthy deep in the playoffs - but this should be Jason's team moving forward next season.

As one veteran put it to me yesterday: "This is Jason's house. Todd is just renting."

What's happening here is amazing, and Todd will get a healthy contract to stay here as a backup and provide excellent insurance. But I think some people are going overboard talking Todd in 2008. Let's go easy on those campaign slogans.

There has been too much invested in Jason and his potential is too great and this franchise's longterm need for finally some stability at QB is too pressing to shelve a great young prospect because he had the temerity to get blindsided by a protection failure and dislocate his knee cap.

Jason is still learning, he has a ways to go ... But you give any GM in this league a choice moving forward of Jason Campbell or Todd Collins, and they'll eager snatch the kid. It's a nobrainer. Todd has shown he can come in cold and execute this offense astutely for a few weeks. That's perfect for what he is at his age. By all means keep him around.

But he's 36 without a ton of natural athleticism - at least not to Campbell's measure - and the Redskins have been down this road before, far too many times. Show some patience. Give Campbell at least the equivalent of two full seasons before making sweeping judgments about who should start - he's made 20 starts for the love of Pete - and show some faith in the youngster.

Don't kill his confidence and risking setting your franchise back for years by giving the job to Collins. Spoke to some highly thought of NFL execs over the past few days and to them this is a no brainer.

As one top dog put it: "You ride the hot hand at quarterback. You play Collins until your season ends. The only way Campbell plays is if he's completely healthy and the other guy falls apart. It's Collins's show right now. But they've got a potential franchise quarterback there. How many teams can say that? You build your franchise around Jason Campbell. He's the guy next season. That shouldn't be an issue,"

As for the potential offseason demand in Collins, the two guys I spoke to - one of whom would be in the market for a quarterback - did not anticipate even a strong playoff run creating a ton of demand. They pointed to how difficult it is for old quarterbacks to make it through a 16-week season, how they naturally tail off and are vulnerable to injury. Brett Favre, is obviously the exception, but he's a freak of nature who has basically never missed a start his entire career. And please, even the biggest Todd Collins worshipper would not try to compare him with Favre.

"Look at Garcia this year. Look at Brunell. Look at McNair. This guy is a relief pitcher. He's great in the role he is in. But over 16 games you'll see the wear and tear. You make him your starter and put it in his hands, and not Campbell's you're taking a step back."

Another personnel guy made what I thought was a pretty astute comparison. He called Collins an excellent system quarterback, so perfect and well versed in Al Saunders's style, where his lack of mobility and downfield arm strength are not a big problem. But unless you are running that system, you wouldn't really consider him (I do think Minnesota would be one team to take a long look at Todd if given the shot, but, again, I don't think he'll ever see free agency. He'll re-sign here).

This guy compared Todd (6-4, 225 pounds) to Steve Bono (6-4, 215). Remember him? Now, Todd is performing at a much higher level than Bono for these four games - and again, this is a ridiculously small sample we're talking about, which almost no one seems to keep in mind - but the situation is similar, with neither guy an overwhelming athlete.

He was a longtime backup, gets in a West Coast system behind Young and Montana in San Fran, fares well in limited duty - 11 TDs to 4 INTs in 6 starts in 1991 - gets traded to KC to keep backing up Montana nd gets a chance to start regularly in the same system when Joe retires and has a Pro Bowl year out of the blue in 1995 at age 33, leading the Chiefs to a 13-3 record and division title - a little younger than Todd but close. Bono then essentially fades out, does not have another impact season but hangs around another 3 years as a backup.

Todd could shatter all of that, and maybe he has the ultimate renaissance in his late 30s. History would say no, and we'll see what the open market says should he become a free agent. But to me you don't even think about stunting your future for Collins next summer. Todd has shown he can come off the bench without reps and do the job.

You don't have Jason split reps, dent his confidence, and jostle for time with receivers in the offseason and during training camp. If you need Todd, he's there. If you lose Jason, you lose Jason.

[abu69]

I agree, 100%.

[dfbovey]

Agree with all points as well.

[Dick Edds]

totally agree as well!

[SkinsNoles21]

oh weird...a person using their brain on the situation.

Be happy people, we have a young franchise qb and a great veteran backup.

exactly what you are supposed to have!

[Heisenberg]

Great read, nice to see an article with some sense on this board in regards to the QB situation.

[Loxley]

I thought that this was pretty much a no-brainer anyway. I am glad I have seen it in print now at least.

[Taylor4Life]

His criticism is obviously being directed towards FANS who want to see TC as the starting QB for 2008. I don't think that the coaching staff is even considering that, but who knows?

[StillUnknown]

more people need to read this

[redman]

He called Collins an excellent system quarterback, so perfect and well versed in Al Saunders's style, where his lack of mobility and downfield arm strength are not a big problem. But unless you are running that system, you wouldn't really consider him

I had been thinking this very thing recently. Collins is effective because he's running this system to perfection, but that means his fate is tied to this system, and this system will be here next year once again.

With the emergence of our young players and with our injured vets recovering, we'll be heading into next season with some big aspirations. Having Collins back in the fold as a backup will be huge for us. Campbell is our future.

[#98QBKiller]

oh weird...a person using their brain on the situation.

Be happy people, we have a young franchise qb and a great veteran backup.

exactly what you are supposed to have!


SkinsNoles FTW :1stplace:

[fansince62]

what can I say? makes too much sense to convince the bandwagon types.

[dez_mick]

Somebody point FanSinceSonnyJ (and his ilk) to this thread. It'll give him some perspective before he starts another ridiculous "Lets Trade Jason Campbell Now" post.
Best article JLC has written this year.

[bobzmuda]

I had been thinking this very thing recently. Collins is effective because he's running this system to perfection, but that means his fate is tied to this system, and this system will be here next year once again.

My only concern is that "this system" is run elsewhere in the league and that someone running that system, who needs a vet QB to start immediately, will throw a more than reasonable amount of money at Collins. For example, what if Martz lands in San Fran as the offensive coordinator? Same system, young QB would probably need to be tutored in the offense, and they have an absolute ton of cap space to blow on a QB after their embarassing 2007 campaign.

[Buford]

I think the best thing that COULD happen is Jason coming back healthy.

Todd getting a backup's contract

and a young project guy being the #3.

No offense to Marky-Mark. But, even without playing for a year. I bet he's banged up.

[KNGwithOUTaCrwN]

great article,great read. i completely agree! it gets annoying when all these other people say he will be the QB in 08 season. thatll never happen

[Hiro]

Paging taylorecoreskin, party of one.

Your server tonight will be JLC, and he'll be serving you a healthy dose of reality ...

[CallMeGreen]

The best piece of news I read out of this is the speculation we'll still be able to keep Todd as the backup. Given his age, were he to stick around I don't think Jason would feel a long-term threat with Todd still here as the backup.

More good news is that the past four weeks has given some recent proof to the once-forgotten idea that the Saunders' offense can be effective. Plus the players have experienced the success for themselves, hopefully making them believers as well.

[redskinsunshine]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/01/campbell_and_thrash.html

Also worthy of note is the next post on JLC's blog, in which he recounts a chat today with Jason Campbell:



Also had a good chat with Jason Campbell. He says he has no worries about losing his starting job in 2008 or beyond and that he has had several long talks with Al Saunders, and has been told this is his offense and his team and that he could be having similar success if the playmakers were this healthy when he was at the helm. Jason said he is trying to stay in good spirits and feels he could be thriving in this same situation, which makes it tough.

"Coach Saunders talks to me all the time and says, 'This is your team, this is your offense, all the things going on now are the same things you would have been doing,'" Campbell said. "'It was building up to this and now all the guys are healthy and everyone is playing at a different level.'"

[dfbovey]

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/redskinsinsider/2008/01/campbell_and_thrash.html

Also worthy of note is the next post on JLC's blog, in which he recounts a chat today with Jason Campbell:

Also had a good chat with Jason Campbell. He says he has no worries about losing his starting job in 2008 or beyond and that he has had several long talks with Al Saunders, and has been told this is his offense and his team and that he could be having similar success if the playmakers were this healthy when he was at the helm. Jason said he is trying to stay in good spirits and feels he could be thriving in this same situation, which makes it tough.


More emphasis needs to be placed on this.

[Destructis]

This article has me thinking more now too. I think TC being in there right now is a good thing for JC also. TC has a lot more creditibility with JC now. He has shown he knows how to run Saunders offense and JC is smart enough to know that he needs to learn more about it and who better to learn from than someone who is showing that he understands it. This off season JC will probably spending a lot more time with TC.

Don't be surprised if TC shows up as an offensive coordinator somewhere in a few years.

[gortiz]

finally ...

we can put the TC hysteria to rest. I hope he takes us to Arizona, don't get me wrong, just don't forget who's team this is ...

[Silencer6091]

...good read...both blog posts...

[NewCliche21]

Ding effing ding.

Can every please STFU now?

[Buck812]

I think most with common sense understands this but there will always be a few that will only look at the results and not why the results are what they are. Hell if that was the case it would have made Sean a bad safety because the team was still struggling with him playing.

[Califan007]

Ding effing ding.

Can every please STFU now?
:laugh: :applause: QFT...

[Chump Bailey]

I think a whole lot could change quickly if we continue past Seattle playing as well as we are currently. Long term of course JC is the answer, but I think next season we could very well see Todd emerge the starter. I hardly think this is a non-issue as JLC would have you believe.

I don't believe for an instant that if we make it to the NFC Championship game with Todd at the helm that some amount of ambiguity will linger in Gibbs's and Al's minds heading into the offseason about who should be leading the team next season. Time is a very precious commodity to all involved.

[terpskins10]

Thank goodness for JLC. Easily the best thing I've read from him in a long time, making the same exact points I've been trying to make, plus backing it up by quoting some personnel execs. Obviously there are still people who are going to want to set back the franchise to see Todd back there, but I feel like by week 10 next year, people are going to be eating those words when Campbell is on his way to Hawaii.

[RedDog58]

Blogs are just someone's opinion. My opinion is different than his. That doesn't make me wrong.

[Hunter_R]

Where was all of this support when Ramsey was hung out to dry?

[21dave]

Jason has been on fire. Nice post.

[dfbovey]

Blogs are just someone's opinion. My opinion is different than his. That doesn't make me wrong.

Not until your opinion is proven wrong at least.

[terpfan]

I'm excited about both our QBs. I love what Todd is doing now and I'm excited for what Jason can do in this offense in the future. Hopefully he is still studying that playbook and learning from Collins.

[HigSkin]

I agree with most he says but believe there needs to be competition at all position. Hope they figure out how to keep Todd. Nobody should be handed the job.


:2cents:

[skinfan2k]

Gibbs came back to washington to stablize the organization correct? If he puts everything into next year and we fail with TC, lets say. Gibbs 2.0 is a failure because the one thing i hoped for when gibbs came back it would be the stabilization of the long term Qb situation

[abu69]

I agree with most he says but believe there needs to be competition at all position. Hope they figure out how to keep Todd. Nobody should be handed the job.


:2cents:

How to keep Todd? By assuring him a nice salary for a few years as the (best in league?) backup. He won't have to relocate, he's comfortable in his job clearly, and as we've seen he's a fluke play from taking the spotlight back. At age 36, that's not a bad dig.

[stevenaa]

Campbell will be the starter next year, regardless of what goes on this year. We have to have long term stability at the position and JC gives us that opportunity. Contrary to mass hysteria, he grew quite a bit this year. TC is benefiting from good OLine and receiver play that JC didn't enjoy. I don't buy into the line gelling and the receivers playing better all due to TC. He's doing a great job, but he made a few mistakes last game that could have been huge. He won't likely have it as easy in the playoffs. Hopefully he's up to the challenge, but there's no history there to look back on.

[ncsuapex]

There is no conundrum, JC is hurt, TC is hot.


eos.

[STBonecrusher21]

Thank god for JLC. Putting all JC haters in their place since 2005. Can everyone shut up about it now.

[SearchHorizon]

If the playoff ends with the Seahawks, JLC may well be right.

If we beat Dallas, it will be a different story.

[Oldfan]

I think a whole lot could change quickly if we continue past Seattle playing as well as we are currently. Long term of course JC is the answer, but I think next season we could very well see Todd emerge the starter. I hardly think this is a non-issue as JLC would have you believe.

I don't believe for an instant that if we make it to the NFC Championship game with Todd at the helm that some amount of ambiguity will linger in Gibbs's and Al's minds heading into the offseason about who should be leading the team next season. Time is a very precious commodity to all involved.

How can you say that, CB? Jason Canafora has settled the issue. The debate's over. Didn't you read the earlier posts?:rolleyes:

Seriously, it's hard to predict how this is going to shake out in the minds of Saunders and Gibbs. Collins is making a case for himself. If I had to pick a QB to win the next game, it would be Collins even if Jason was healthy. I'd worry about Jason's psyche later.

[Dirk Diggler]

Are these the same "league sources" who told us Stephon Heyer couldn't play?

[Peregrine]

Its a matter of common sense, and being future oriented. Yes, Collins may well play better than Jason in 2008. Its possible. But thats one season. Do you want one season of making the playoffs, or do you want 5 seasons of making the playoffs? Do you want instant gratification, or do you want a dynasty? I know what choice id make.

[SearchHorizon]

How can you say that, CB? Jason Canafora has settled the issue. The debate's over. Didn't you read the earlier posts?:rolleyes:
JLC's post reads as if anyone who doesn't agree with his view doesn't know anything about football.

I would like to see what JLC says if the Skins wins 3 more with TC at the helm.

[stbabyy]

I think that we should see how well TC plays in the post-season before deciding who gets the start next year. It should be a competition or what else is there to work for? I love JC but if TC stays hot let it ride out. And I don't doubt for a second that JC is our man of the future.

[SearchHorizon]

Its a matter of common sense, and being future oriented.
A proven winner is much more valuable than a potential winner.

A bird in the hand is worth ten in the bush.

[Oldfan]

Its a matter of common sense, and being future oriented. Yes, Collins may well play better than Jason in 2008. Its possible. But thats one season. Do you want one season of making the playoffs, or do you want 5 seasons of making the playoffs? Do you want instant gratification, or do you want a dynasty? I know what choice id make.

Common sense isn't all that common.

Your argument contains a couple of premises that are purely speculation at this point. The first is that Jason Campbell = 5 seasons of making the playoffs and a dynasty. The second is that if he doesn't start in 2008, his progress will be permanently derailed and not merely delayed a year.

[Dirk Diggler]

Its a matter of common sense, and being future oriented. Yes, Collins may well play better than Jason in 2008. Its possible. But thats one season. Do you want one season of making the playoffs, or do you want 5 seasons of making the playoffs? Do you want instant gratification, or do you want a dynasty? I know what choice id make.

I tend to have a wait and see approach with this whole thing....

But how is it a foregone conclusion that Collins is going to die of old age either this offseason or next? Collins has to be the youngest 36 year old QB in history considering how much he (hasn't) played. Maybe the wheels fall off next year, maybe they don't. But you can't tell me with any certainty that Campbell is a franchise QB who is going to lead us to a dynasty based on ANYTHING we've actually seen. That's wishful thinking if I've ever heard it.

[tonyriggins]

Its a matter of common sense, and being future oriented. Yes, Collins may well play better than Jason in 2008. Its possible. But thats one season. Do you want one season of making the playoffs, or do you want 5 seasons of making the playoffs? Do you want instant gratification, or do you want a dynasty? I know what choice id make.

This is where you guys lose me. As state above one year playoffs with Collins in 08 or do you want 5 season of making the playoffs with Campbell.
Why cant you still get 5 years of playoffs with Collins 1 yr and Campbell 4? Is Jason so fragile that he cant sit another year if he is not as good as Collins? Is it too late for him now? Is is confidense done after watching Todd? common guys have more faith in Campbell than that. We wont cut Campbell if he is not starting, he can still be the future people! Let go with who gives us the most wins. Just based on age Campbell will get his chance again. I think he will be a better QB for his time of the bench, not worse like alot of you.

[SearchHorizon]

Common sense isn't all that common.

Your argument contains a couple of premises that are purely speculation at this point. The first is that Jason Campbell = 5 seasons of making the playoffs and a dynasty. The second is that if he doesn't start in 2008, his progress will be permanently derailed and not merely delayed a year.
You have completely won me over with your recent posts!

[RedDog58]

The first thing that below average Campbell must show is that he can QB a team to a .500 record. Seeing as his record as a starter is 7-12 he would have to become the winner of "Extreme Makeover: QB Edition" just to reach that goal.


Let me know when you guys raise his bar off the ground.

[STBonecrusher21]

You have completely won me over with your recent posts!

He's been known to do that.

[skinfan2k]

Last year was a joke in terms of win-loss record. He was getting thrown into a team that was what 3-7 when he become a starter? It was about getting him accustomed to the NFL. Remember Gibbs taking back the offense, and returning to Redskins football at the end of the year. Then this year was his first year running the saunders offense.

[westcoasthog]

Blogs are just someone's opinion. My opinion is different than his. That doesn't make me wrong.
No. The fact that you're wrong makes you wrong.

[STBonecrusher21]

No. The fact that you're wrong makes you wrong.

:laugh:

[IHOPSkins]

.....(JC) would have to become the winner of "Extreme Makeover: QB Edition" .....
:laugh: Nice



The article shows more JC defensiveness....as do some of the posts here

Does it have to be JC next year?....is he ruined if he doesn't? (fragile isn't he?)

JC might be the future....he sure as hell ain't the present (TB - Dallas #1)

JC has MORE TO LEARN, even this article mentioned it

To predetermine WHEN JC gets to start again is illogical

Gibbs has stated that we play who gives us the better shot at winning

Just look at the last 8 games to figure this out

JC needs to study hard for his test next pre-season

[Zazzaro703]

we were having this same conversation last year about Betts replacing Portis. Campbell starts next year.

[Gerald362]

Forget that............I would love to see him as QB coach here in a couple of years. The guy has spent so much time in the system, he has probably helped rewrite some of the book. With what has been written, I only see positives coming for JC because of TC. He should now see what can be done with this offense, and with his superior athleticism, he could make it even more dangerous.
This article has me thinking more now too. I think TC being in there right now is a good thing for JC also. TC has a lot more creditibility with JC now. He has shown he knows how to run Saunders offense and JC is smart enough to know that he needs to learn more about it and who better to learn from than someone who is showing that he understands it. This off season JC will probably spending a lot more time with TC.

Don't be surprised if TC shows up as an offensive coordinator somewhere in a few years.

[Oldfan]

You have completely won me over with your recent posts!

You're too easy. My sister was like that.:silly:

[SearchHorizon]

You're too easy. My sister was like that :silly:
<insert an obligatory easy sister joke here>

Hmmm, no one wants to be easy ... we will need to find a topic on which we disagree and revisit this ... ;)

[bobzmuda]

The first thing that below average Campbell must show is that he can QB a team to a .500 record. Seeing as his record as a starter is 7-12 he would have to become the winner of "Extreme Makeover: QB Edition" just to reach that goal.


Let me know when you guys raise his bar off the ground.

Hey, another "judge a QB solely by wins and losses" guy or gal.

How about that Vince Young! And how about that year Dilfer had with the Ravens? He was such a great QB then.

[Doctorfro]

Considering what Collins has done for this team this year, he should be given a training camp/preseason shot at the starting job next year. Let the two battle it out and the best man wins. We come out great either way.

[SkinsFanMania]

I totally agree, this is Jason's team, however we should finish the season with the current regime.

[Gigantor]

I decided to watch JCs "choke" games, Dallas and Tampa tonight. I have to say that watching those games again without the emotion of live play, JC did pretty well until the end.

JC seemed to get nervous inside the 20 and that's probably why he choked. Upon further review, I think he can overcome his fear once he gets that "monkey of his back". One he scores a TD inside the 20 under pressure, his ills MIGHT be cured.

So I'm softening my stance on JC. Next season should be an open competition and let the best QB win the starting job.I no longer think we need to look for a young QB for the future, lets give JC another chance, but he should earn it.

I hope he can come through since we have 3 draft picks invested in him. It would be a shame to waste all that.

[ddub52]

I think for once we are set up good. We have a veteran backup QB that has already proven he can do the job, and a young QB that has tons of talent and many years ahead of him. Now we just need to get another young guy in there in the 3rd spot

[Califan007]

Does anyone know of a stats site that shows YAC for individual games?

[LoudMouth12thMan]

If Campbell doesn't earn the job back, than I don't think that you just give him the job in fear of his feelings being hurt just b/c he's "the future" and you don't want to rattle him. This article is good but bad in it's philosophical ideals about Campbell's "ego." Like Salisbury always says, we're not in the feel good business, we're in the winning business. I love JC, but he's got to continue to grow and earn the job back if Collins continues to play well. There is no "he got us this far" scenario. Even if he gets us to the SB or no more games, the thought process is still the same. Campbell is the starter, but he's got to earn his job back and not turn the ball over so much.

I believe that you let Campbell begin next season if he seems to have improved in the turnover area [in camp and in the pre-season], and you give him time to get in the groove in the first few games of the season. If he comes out on the plus side, he's our guy. If he coughs the ball up a bunch, he get's the hook and Collins goes in within', oh let's say, the first 4 weeks or so. In other words, give Campbell a few weeks to prove he's "the future" and then see what happens. I can tell you this though, this organization would be stupid to let a sure backup qb go to free agency. They better learn how to keep players this off-season. I'm sure they will keep him and most of our key vets. We need Collins, I know that. We need him as much as we do Campbell. I'm just glad that we have them both right now, and it'd better stay that way next year :fingersx: :)
HTTR

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Does anyone know of a stats site that shows YAC for individual games?

I'd check Yahoo's Sports and Washingtonpost has a link to Stats.com

A caution: There are no real game-by-game breakdowns in the full detail. You ALMOST get it because they will show for non-divisional games but because of the fact we played two opponents we already played twice, it's not fair to anyone to really dwell hard on the YAC for those categories.

They also have (from games 1-8) but again, Jason went beyond that mark.

I believe I saw some improvement for a couple guys but without having the 4 game breakdown exactly, it's tough to know what the overall change was, if any, or if some guys benefited more than others.

[SearchHorizon]

I decided to watch JCs "choke" games, Dallas and Tampa tonight. I have to say that watching those games again without the emotion of live play, JC did pretty well until the end.
I believe JC has been making strides.

But I still stand by my view that Jason has to improve the timing -- he is late in a lot of his throws. Check out the Buffalo game.

[SearchHorizon]

I just wanted to point this out.

JLC can say whatever he wants; but the outcome of this depends on how well TC does in the next 2-3 games.

[Mr.Skinbo]

Very Well Put, Todd is doing great, but the way the rest of the team is playing you couldn't help but think J.C. could do this too.

[Larry Gude]

His criticism is obviously being directed towards FANS who want to see TC as the starting QB for 2008. I don't think that the coaching staff is even considering that, but who knows?

This amazes me. Collins is clearly playing better than Campbell. He just is. Wouldn't it make sense to play Collins next year if he finishes great this year and is still playing better than Jason next training camp and preseason? Given Campbell's problems with accuracy and making quicker decisions, it seems reasonable that he may still be a year away. Or more.

If we go with an older qb in '04 who'd done nothing recently, wouldn't common sense argue for playing an older qb who had done something recently?

Or do we go right back to the system of playing favorites at qb that got us in this mess to begin with instead of who is playing better?

Is Jason Campbell going to go past his 'best if used by' date if he doesn't start next year?

Maybe if a marginally talented guy can suddenly get it done at the end of his career, Jason will be able to manage, with huge talent, to get it going later in year four or even wait until 5?

Is JC so frail that his feelings and ego will be crushed by such a fate?

Todd Collins is not likely to be offered huge money to go somewhere else, but, we, of all fans, know it does happen. By the same token, anyone gonna break the bank to get Jason to come play for them?

It is absurd to consider anyone but Collins until he gets hurt or falls apart.

It is absurd to consider anyone else at qb next season unless they are playing better than him.

And Jason did have 20 starts. How many has Collins had?

Anyone doubt that Todd hasn't been the sharper qb in practice since he got here?

Boys and girls, the moment we get back to playing who is playing better and away from favorites is the moment this team gets back on a long term path of success.

This should be Todd Collins job until he is not the best qb on this team. Right now, he is. Beginning next year he most likely still will be.

Time to focus on the Seahawks.

[RedskinsNation]

I agree 1000%....and always have. I may have bashed Gibbs and all but Ive never called for a Collins-should-replace-Campbell switch. No way.

[RySkins]

Campbell is obviously the future, but if the Redskins were to miraculously, say, make the Super Bowl, it will be hard to not let Collins start the season as the starter. Anything short of the NFC Championship Game, and this is an easy decision. Anything more, and it is hard. Remember Doug Williams in 1988? Clearly not the future. The coaching staff probably even knew he was not the best quarterback on the roster. But they had to start him because he had won them a Super Bowl the year before.

[alwrld]

best damn article i have read in a while. agree 100%

[Riggo#44]

Ever since Sean Taylor's Death, JLC has scored some serious points in my book. I know he's not that popular around here -- but I have found myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said lately.

And this is spot on and I agree 100%. The guy is 36. How much of a future does he have? For all the TC in 08 supporters, do you honestly believe he will be as effective in week 10 as he is right now?

He is a great back-up and perfect for that role, but other then that he is Billy Volek.

[skinfan2k]

Doesn't it Help that gibbs told the players that he will no longer be conservative after the Buffalo game and that we will start finishing games? He seriously took that loss really hard.

It helps that the offense is running differently and more smoothly, and its hard for teams to game plan against the skins with limited tape of Collins

[laxpck]

Ever since Sean Taylor's Death, JLC has scored some serious points in my book. I know he's not that popular around here -- but I have found myself agreeing with a lot of what he has said lately.

And this is spot on and I agree 100%. The guy is 36. How much of a future does he have? For all the TC in 08 supporters, do you honestly believe he will be as effective in week 10 as he is right now?

He is a great back-up and perfect for that role, but other then that he is Billy Volek.


I have also had my opinion of JLC shift. His coverage through the ST tragedy served to endear him a little. His calling out of fellow mediots (sorry JLC) showed that he is more than someone out to sell papers.

I think he is spot on in this article. We are deep at QB. This is JC's team.

Spot on.

[Oldfan]

Very Well Put, Todd is doing great, but the way the rest of the team is playing you couldn't help but think J.C. could do this too.

Don't you think it's an odd coincidence that the rest of the team began playing so well with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game, though?

[kingfish50]

Keeping TC should be a top priority as we need a veteran back up that knows this system. If this is JC's team next year, fine. I just hope he's not going to turn out to be another M. Vick, D. MacNabb. Always moving the ball and always making the bone head mistakes time after time (unteachable) and not being able to score in the red zone.
With a healthy team next season and all of this off season and training camp, JC should have this offense pretty much ingrained in his brain. If we don't see something as close to, if not, exceeding TC's play at running this offense by JC, then we have wasted our time and probably any playoff chances. Now you can't argue with that.

[kingfish50]

Don't you think it's an odd coincidence that the rest of the team began playing so well with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game, though?


Oldfan, some people just don't see it or actually, they don't want to see it.

[RedDog58]

Don't you think it's an odd coincidence that the rest of the team began playing so well with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game, though?

Ding ding ding!!!! Thread winner!

Oldfan, I want to buy you a beer sometime.

[fansince62]

Don't you think it's an odd coincidence that the rest of the team began playing so well with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game, though?


no I don't. I think it great that Springs made an INT that changed momentum. I think it great tyhat the defense staked the team to alead in the Vikes game. I think it great that the defense shut Dallas down. I tjhink it great that Collins is comlpeting the passes he is capable of completing and the receivers are inspired by ST to go all out. I think it onderfull that TC's 4 fumbles only resulted in one giveaway and that his near INT and actual INT were both given back. I think it is great that the RBs have managed multiple TDs. I htink it wonderful that he Buffalo force JG to open the offense up.

we can debate this endlessly. TC will be killed over a 16 game sked. he has obvious wekanesses that can be exploited. wait and watch. his weaknesses cannot be fixed. JC's can.

[fansince62]

Oldfan, some people just don't see it or actually, they don't want to see it.


and some folks have a very, very myopic view of what is happening on the field and how one builds for sustained excellence.

[laxpck]

Don't you think it's an odd coincidence that the rest of the team began playing so well with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game, though?

Does TC play defense?

I love TC #15. But I think any Qb back there would be flourishing with the way our D is giving them the ball.

[RedDog58]

Hey, another "judge a QB solely by wins and losses" guy or gal.

How about that Vince Young! And how about that year Dilfer had with the Ravens? He was such a great QB then.

I want to thank you for making me spit my coffee acrosss the room with laughter.

Exactly how do you judge a QB? Style points don't count in the NFL. If they did Billy Kilmer would never have seen the field. An please show me where I ever had a nice thing to say about Vince Young. As far as Dilfer goes, at least he's wearing a ring. He won the biggest game he ever played in. Campbell can only wish for that right now.

[fansince62]

My only concern is that "this system" is run elsewhere in the league and that someone running that system, who needs a vet QB to start immediately, will throw a more than reasonable amount of money at Collins. For example, what if Martz lands in San Fran as the offensive coordinator? Same system, young QB would probably need to be tutored in the offense, and they have an absolute ton of cap space to blow on a QB after their embarassing 2007 campaign.


bobz...and I know you have been thoughtful on all of this....but I keep thinking...so what? lots of people know systems...that does not guarantee success. every system gets gameplanned....50% of all teams lose on every Sunday/Saturday/Thursady (barring unheard of ties). those who think that just because TC has timing down and "knows the playbook" that this somehow guarantees success over the course of a season are in need of therapy. they are ignoring the unique factors currently in play; ignore obvious TC weaknesses that can be exploited; are willing to extrapolate on these unique circumstances on the basis of 4 games - let us take note here that the Al Saunder's offense never got to a championship in KC and that Martz was the architect in ST Louis.

It's all in good fun smoking the TC crack! and no harm comes of it. One has to assume the Skins brass aren't dumb enough to trash the next 3-4 years.

[fansince62]

Does TC play defense?

I love TC #15. But I think any Qb back there would be flourishing with the way our D is giving them the ball.

agree 100%.

[STBonecrusher21]

no I don't. I think it great that Springs made an INT that changed momentum. I think it great tyhat the defense staked the team to alead in the Vikes game. I think it great that the defense shut Dallas down. I tjhink it great that Collins is comlpeting the passes he is capable of completing and the receivers are inspired by ST to go all out. I think it onderfull that TC's 4 fumbles only resulted in one giveaway and that his near INT and actual INT were both given back. I think it is great that the RBs have managed multiple TDs. I htink it wonderful that he Buffalo force JG to open the offense up.

we can debate this endlessly. TC will be killed over a 16 game sked. he has obvious wekanesses that can be exploited. wait and watch. his weaknesses cannot be fixed. JC's can.

I thought you were a TC supporter, or should I say JC basher. Must be someone else I'm thinking of.

But you make some good points in this post. And I agree with you.

[fansince62]

Keeping TC should be a top priority as we need a veteran back up that knows this system. If this is JC's team next year, fine. I just hope he's not going to turn out to be another M. Vick, D. MacNabb. Always moving the ball and always making the bone head mistakes time after time (unteachable) and not being able to score in the red zone.
With a healthy team next season and all of this off season and training camp, JC should have this offense pretty much ingrained in his brain. If we don't see something as close to, if not, exceeding TC's play at running this offense by JC, then we have wasted our time and probably any playoff chances. Now you can't argue with that.

on this we can agree! :cheers:

we can debate during the off-season whether TC has a prayer over 16 games of getting to a championship.

[fansince62]

I thought you were a TC supporter, or should I say JC basher. Must be someone else I'm thinking of.

But you make some good points in this post. And I agree with you.

nope. never. I think TC deserves accolades for what he has accomplished. but...to reiterate:

- I choose to see everything going on...not just TC completing 1.x TDs per game

- I think this team is hosed for a long time if it turns to TC next year. That's where the real problms lies...IMO. TC is strictly short term.

- We need to find out NOW (meaning next season) if JC can progress to full time upper echelon QB. If not...an aging, immobile QB with limitted arm strength aint gonna cut it as the long-term answer. TC only makes sense to me if you think he is the difference in getting you to and winning a SB next year. it's speculation by all of us on that one. I happen to think not. I think much of what we are seeing now traces to factors other than TC.....what others are doing around him and shere luck.

[Buford]

Thus having your "Future" as the starter.

Your "Vet" as your backup

and your "project" as your 3rd stringer.

[mistertim]

The first thing that below average Campbell must show is that he can QB a team to a .500 record. Seeing as his record as a starter is 7-12 he would have to become the winner of "Extreme Makeover: QB Edition" just to reach that goal.


Let me know when you guys raise his bar off the ground.

Apparently Saunders thinks he can since he is telling JC that it is his team and will be next year and that he believes that the way things are going right now JC would probably be having the same success. But bah, what does HE know about football or this system? Or maybe he has just been flat out lying to JC. Or maybe JC just flat out lied and made stuff up about what Saunders is saying in a fantasy world of his?

[UltimateSkinFan616]

I agree with JLC. Collins is a good security blanket for us and I can't see him thriving in any other system other than Al Saunders's. His age also makes him a short-term fix at best and his arm strength is what you'd expect from someone who's taken as many reps as he has. I think he'll make a great mentor for Jason, which is why I hope we resign him soon and give him a safe place with the team. Who knows? Maybe if he chooses to retire he could become our Quarterback Coach.

[Bigmuss1]

After all of this, whenever the season ends, hopefully not soon!! Let's all hope JC learns from TC. That is what to hope for, JC is our starter, we now all know we have a competent backup. This is great news, alot of teams struggle when the starter goes down! We have a great security blanket, let's just hope JC learns that quick reads and touch are better than using his cannon arm to force in the ball!!!

[ncr2h]

no I don't. I think it great that Springs made an INT that changed momentum. I think it great tyhat the defense staked the team to alead in the Vikes game. I think it great that the defense shut Dallas down. I tjhink it great that Collins is comlpeting the passes he is capable of completing and the receivers are inspired by ST to go all out. I think it onderfull that TC's 4 fumbles only resulted in one giveaway and that his near INT and actual INT were both given back. I think it is great that the RBs have managed multiple TDs. I htink it wonderful that he Buffalo force JG to open the offense up.

we can debate this endlessly. TC will be killed over a 16 game sked. he has obvious wekanesses that can be exploited. wait and watch. his weaknesses cannot be fixed. JC's can.

Great post.

Collins has been playing great football. However, his play has coincided with Moss finally remembering how to play, Portis stepping up his game, and the O-line consistently giving protection and opening up the run game. Also, while the defense has been good all year, they have been absolutely lights out in each of Collins' games. The defense never played at this level during Campbell's tenure (except the first few games, which coincidentally the Redskins won most of).

Does anyone really think Collins' 37 year-old body will hold up over 19 weeks? Even if our starting O-line stays 100% healthy the entire year, I'd give him maybe a 1 in 3 shot of staying healthy the whole year. If he's not healthy the whole year, wouldn't he be better off as the backup?

[Dingani]

The line about "don't kill Campbell's confidence" is crap. It's the NFL and not pee wee football with 12 year olds. These are grown men and if they can't handle decisions and setbacks then they shouldn't be in the NFL league because they won't be effective....which Jason Campbell has not been. Maybe you're right. Maybe his confidence has been killed, not by being replaced by Collins, but by all his interceptions and fumbles and balls thrown into, around, and over the heads of his receivers.

If opening up the QB competition next spring can kill Campbell's confidence, then he shouldn't be the QB. It certainly hasn't hurt Todd Collins to sit on the bench for 10 years, wy would it hurt Campbell for 1 year.

[Uno Boss]

Lets see

The head offensive Coach can see it
The redskins insider reporter can see it
NFL execs can see it
But ES dreamers just cant seem to see it..
Maybe all of those people should be fired and the ES kneew jerk
TC congregation should get their jobs..:doh:

The team as a whole is playing better..in every article that pops up you see the term "playmakers" pop up...

Al has known Todd longer than anybody i dont think he would want to baby jason just for the sake..if anything after all he has been through he would want Todd to stay at QB cause it makes him look better. But the truth is he knows there are other things happening that the QB has no control over....
" This is Jasons house Todd is just renting "
You dreamers cant continue to try and swim across denial...:laugh:

[Oldfan]

no I don't. I think it great that Springs made an INT that changed momentum. I think it great tyhat the defense staked the team to alead in the Vikes game. I think it great that the defense shut Dallas down. I tjhink it great that Collins is comlpeting the passes he is capable of completing and the receivers are inspired by ST to go all out. I think it onderfull that TC's 4 fumbles only resulted in one giveaway and that his near INT and actual INT were both given back. I think it is great that the RBs have managed multiple TDs. I htink it wonderful that he Buffalo force JG to open the offense up.

we can debate this endlessly. TC will be killed over a 16 game sked. he has obvious wekanesses that can be exploited. wait and watch. his weaknesses cannot be fixed. JC's can.

How can one of my favorite posters be so wrong?:)

The Redskin season turned on a dime with 1:40 remaining in the second period of the Bears game when Campbell went down and Collins replaced him. Other factors have contributed, to the four-game run, but if we are examining the evidence looking for a leading cause, we can't overlook the obvious. We suddenly have a consistent, first-rate passing game for the first time in Gibbs Two because Todd Collins has a grip on Al's offense.

[STBonecrusher21]

Lets see

The head offensive Coach can see it
The redskins insider reporter can see it
NFL execs can see it
But ES dreamers just cant seem to see it..
Maybe all of those people should be fired and the ES kneew jerk
TC congregation should get their jobs..:doh:

The team as a whole is playing better..in every article that pops up you see the term "playmakers" pop up...

Al has known Todd longer than anybody i dont think he would want to baby jason just for the sake..if anything after all he has been through he would want Todd to stay at QB cause it makes him look better. But the truth is he knows there are other things happening that the QB has no control over....
" This is Jasons house Todd is just renting "
You dreamers cant continue to try and swim across denial...:laugh:

QFT:applause:

[Dirk Diggler]

we can debate this endlessly. TC will be killed over a 16 game sked. he has obvious wekanesses that can be exploited. wait and watch. his weaknesses cannot be fixed.

I guess no QB in the league has ever managed to overcome physical limitations to achieve sustained success? Do we really need to list them out? I would say your statement above is the epitome of a "myopic" view. :rolleyes:

[[[ghost]]]

Wouldn't it just be easier to take what happens in one game and assume that that would happen each game for the rest of everybody's life?

It certainly explains why Ladell Betts is the future of the Redskins, and how that one time Leigh Torrence made a tackle should play a large role on whether he or Carlos Rogers start next year. I also saw Moss return a kick for like 15 yards on Sunday, so lets put him in and cut Rock.

[bobzmuda]

bobz...and I know you have been thoughtful on all of this....but I keep thinking...so what? lots of people know systems...that does not guarantee success. every system gets gameplanned....50% of all teams lose on every Sunday/Saturday/Thursady (barring unheard of ties). those who think that just because TC has timing down and "knows the playbook" that this somehow guarantees success over the course of a season are in need of therapy. they are ignoring the unique factors currently in play; ignore obvious TC weaknesses that can be exploited; are willing to extrapolate on these unique circumstances on the basis of 4 games - let us take note here that the Al Saunder's offense never got to a championship in KC and that Martz was the architect in ST Louis.

It's all in good fun smoking the TC crack! and no harm comes of it. One has to assume the Skins brass aren't dumb enough to trash the next 3-4 years.

I hear you, but for me, it's not a matter of either TC or JC.

I'd rather have both. Regardless of who starts, I doubt we could find a better backup for 2008 that would be as good as either JC or TC. If TC leaves as a FA, then the team is basically operating without a safety net at QB. THAT makes me nervous.