9/11 Coincidences

[909997]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9BofDUXv0

this is very weired, anyone else question 9/11? was it really terrorist or us.

[Spaceman Spiff]

Lol.... here we go...

[909997]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIx2CVRxRXg

[Toe Jam]

:munchout:

I'm not gonig to blast you for this thread but be prepared for the storm you are about to witness from others.

Good luck man.

:cheers:

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Wow, after watching a few parts of that...it has got me thinking.

Even Kerry in part twelve says "they destroyed building 7 in a controlled fashion".

It would take months to prepare something like that.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

This is an update for part 8 - it's a powerful video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JithuVAIb7Y&feature=related

[philal0102]

It was us.... Look at the history of our country... THEY (our powers at be.... aka the government) Did this to us. To scare us, so we ask for what they want to give us instead of them pushing them on us... Chips, so they see our every move and can turn them off whenever they want... Absolute power.

[philal0102]

Go and watch.

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

[Major Harris]

well here's a new topic for the tailgate.

[ACW]

:munchout:

[thehogs]

Even Kerry in part twelve says "they destroyed building 7 in a controlled fashion".



The English language is great huh? you see, Kerry describes it in the way that humans try to describe chaotic scenes - by equating it with something else, trying to make sense of it all. Hence the word 'fashion' i.e it looked like something else. Doesnt mean thats what happened. You have to think about this from the comfort zone of post-event and remember people are reporting live from a desperate situation and trying to pull together huge events in seconds and minutes for a news broadcast.

Years ago people thought there were canals on Mars. Why? because when they looked through telescopes they saw these smudged 'lines' on the surface. Automatically, they tried to make sense of those images and started putting nice straight lines where actually none existed. Of course when we sent craft up there to take a look, hey! no 'man made' canals. Just big rolling deserts and canyons.

[The_cavalierman]

:munchout: This should be interesting

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

The English language is great huh? you see, Kerry describes it in the way that humans try to describe chaotic scenes - by equating it with something else, trying to make sense of it all. Hence the word 'fashion' i.e it looked like something else. Doesnt mean thats what happened. You have to think about this from the comfort zone of post-event and remember people are reporting live from a desperate situation and trying to pull together huge events in seconds and minutes for a news broadcast.

Years ago people thought there were canals on Mars. Why? because when they looked through telescopes they saw these smudged 'lines' on the surface. Automatically, they tried to make sense of those images and started putting nice straight lines where actually none existed. Of course when we sent craft up there to take a look, hey! no 'man made' canals. Just big rolling deserts and canyons.

You're comparing an unexplored planet millions of miles away with a collapsing building filmed 200 yards away. Quite the exaggeration, if I may.

All I know is that demolition experts are all in agreement that building 7 collapsed in a manner that they describe as "induced by man". Several buildings suffered damage 50x more fearsome, but building 7, which housed the mayor's safehouse, collapsed like my great grandfather's outhouse in a hurricane.

Or should I say, collapsed like an outhouse demolished by an expert.

[InsaneBoost]

This **** never stops coming.

[thehogs]

You're comparing an unexplored planet millions of miles away with a collapsing building filmed 200 yards away. Quite the exaggeration, if I may.



Nope, I am not exaggerating anything. Mars has no context at all with 9/11 (amazing eh?!). The point you missed is that people attempt to make sense of things by comparing confusing situations with experience they know of. That does not mean its the same. Even your experts say it fell in a 'manner'. Ok, the next step is to show the evidence that proves that not only did it fall in a 'manner' but was actually due to a controlled explosion. I am still waiting on that evidence from anyone, anywhere.

[Thiebear]

The search function is your friend.
this has all been gone over 50 times.
You lose, please try again.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Nope, I am not exaggerating anything. Mars has no context at all with 9/11 (amazing eh?!). The point you missed is that people attempt to make sense of things by comparing confusing situations with experience they know of. That does not mean its the same. Even your experts say it fell in a 'manner'. Ok, the next step is to show the evidence that proves that not only did it fall in a 'manner' but was actually due to a controlled explosion. I am still waiting on that evidence from anyone, anywhere.

Dude, watch the videos; they are interesting, if nothing else. Do they need to pull out an undetonated stick of TNT out for you?

I've always been one to blow off 9/11 conspiracy theories, but I think in reality I'd take these engineers' observations over Bush & Co. These are brainiacs sitting here telling us that the way the buildings came down just isn't right.

[thehogs]

Dude, watch the videos; they are interesting, if nothing else. Do they need to pull out an undetonated stick of TNT out for you?


Maybe not an undetonated stick but evidence of controlled explosions would do nicely - got any (looking at film doesnt count, I mean forensic evidence of explosives......)

I've always been one to blow off 9/11 conspiracy theories, but I think in reality I'd take these engineers' observations over Bush & Co.

Exactly 'Observations' - 'observation' says that if you look closely you can see the face of a man on the Moon. WTF!? those bastard CIA at it again! :doh:

[Thiebear]

The new series MonsterQuest is out right now also: I've wasted 5 hours of my life watching that crap too.. you'd think it would have something new.. as its new.. You'd be wrong.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

^ ^ ^
It' states in one of the videos that it took Bush 400+ days to initiate an investigation team for 9/11. Previous disasters took less than 10. Pearl Harbor, Titanic, ect ect ect. Why?

Again, you are comparing things that are very far away, virtually unexplored first hand by man, with things that engineers have learned how to set up first hand. NASA has very little grasp on space compared to head demolition experts' grasp on bringing down a building. It really isn't rocket, or space science. It's a controlled blast that weakens columns in the middle of a building in order for it to collapse on itself. Did you even see the part about Thermite and Thermate?

It takes more than 2400 degrees to melt steel. The jet fuel maxed out at 1200 degrees. How could it melt the steel? Thermate reactions were seen going off around the towers minutes before their collapse, bringing temperatures to the point that they'd slice through steel like butter.

Sorry if you guys really like blowing this sort of stuff off, I find it pretty fishy, and never have until now.

[thehogs]

you see comments like "...Thermate reactions were seen going off around the towers minutes before their collapse..." are pointless unless you can show evidence of the Thermate explosions. People are looking at a peice of film and second-guessing what happened then proposing it as 'fact'. Yet, when other engineers say that its not controlled explosions they are treated as liars, Government stooges etc. Based on what? the 'evidence' and 'facts' gleaned from a movie? I cant accept that. Sorry.

As for 9/11 reports, its no-win..the Government takes x hundred days and people claim they are buying time to cover tracks; do it in a couple of weeks and people are outraged that a 'full' investigation hasnt been carried out, what are they trying to hide blah blah. Come on.

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

you see comments like "...Thermate reactions were seen going off around the towers minutes before their collapse..." are pointless unless you can show evidence of the Thermate explosions. People are looking at a peice of film and second-guessing what happened then proposing it as 'fact'. Yet, when other engineers say that its not controlled explosions they are treated as liars, Government stooges etc. Based on what? the 'evidence' and 'facts' gleaned from a movie? I cant accept that. Sorry.

As for 9/11 reports, its no-win..the Government takes x hundred days and people claim they are buying time to cover tracks; do it in a couple of weeks and people are outraged that a 'full' investigation hasnt been carried out, what are they trying to hide blah blah. Come on.

You have a tendency for blowing things off, don't you?

Tons of hard-to-judge cases would be EASILY solved with a little film evidence.

I'd like to see other engineers opinions on this. Please, point me in that direction. I'm open to anything as far as this goes, didn't really give these theories any thought until now.

You say "movie" like it's a fictional piece of film, which it most certainly not. Again, the temperature properties speak for themselves. The jet fuel temps were half of which could have melted steel. The slices of steel beams were dug up looking like they were professionally demolished. I dunno, I'd have to watch more of this, but I feel like the building 7 incident is very fishy. The owner of the building made $7 billion by suing his insurance agency, if any of this evidence of controlled demolition is true - which it really actually makes it look like - I'm wondering why nobody has sued him for fraud yet. A lot of unanswered questions.

[TrumanB]

I have a good source that tells me the Bush administration was behind 9/11. My source is my ex-wife's cousin's son who worked for a guy that worked for his sister's fiancee's brother who used to work for Cheney's lesbian daughter. Well, anyway, my source says that Cheney was actually the mastermind behind it all. Bush was too busy doing coke in the oval office. So, my source tells me that the trigger man, the guy that brought down both buildings was ....



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http://www.odd-world.co.uk/images/mids/sc5050.jpg

Yep, there he is, moments before detonating the World Trade Center. Bastard.

[thehogs]

Ok, go through these and we'll leave it at that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fEg6XEP-Cig&feature=related

The two engineers responding arent exactly built for TV and come over stilted but listen to what they say. Listen too to how their opponents continually mouth off 'liar' all the time no matter what they say. It also covers Building 7. One of the conspiracy guys talks of someone coming from floor 23 and at floor 8 hearing a 'bomb' going off. A huge leap is then made from this comment to explosives being taken in to the building, how could this happen, must be a cover up etc. Remember too that the person was at floor 8 not 23 when he heard the explosion - he/she did not actually see any 'bomb' detonate. All they heard was a loud explosion and not surprisingly in a moment of what must have been total fear and confusion uses the word 'bomb' to describe an incident. Brilliant, an entire consipracy gift-wrapped so long as you ignore some salient facts that the person didnt see the 'bomb' go off, there is no forensics for a bomb, that the enginereing structure explained by the two engineers may have some facts in it etc etc etc non, no all lies, lies, lies (shout it in the other guys ear, even) unlike our two heroic conspiracy guys. I'm glad I wasnt being interviewed with the two twats spinning their conspiracy. Had they spoken to me like that they wouldn't need a conspiracy for what would happen to them live on TV.

[Ax]

"It's the Gub'ment. WoooHoooo!"
http://www.uselessgraphics.com/clown-drum.gif

[Mad Mike]

Aaaaaand.... Out come the loons. :doh:

I'm telling you. The internets are bad. Most of the population is no good at critical thinking and there is too much nonsense on the web for them to sift through.

[Henry]

What would we do without youtube to get us thinking?

[Rumrunner6900]

well here's a new topic for the tailgate.

:yes:


The search function is your friend.
this has all been gone over 50 times.
You lose, please try again.

:yes:

:doh:

:shutup::shot:


:slap:

[Dan T.]

So, once the twin towers were hit, the CIA or the Secret Service or Guiliani or the SEC or the Bush administration or Larry Silverstein decided that WTC 7 needed be destroyed too, so in the midst of the chaos a demolition team was sent into a burning building to set up a controlled demolition?

Or the CIA or the Secret Service or Guiliani or the SEC or the Bush administration or Larry Silverstein knew the planes were coming ahead of time, so they sent a demolition team into the WTC 7 building days or weeks before-hand, and the team managed to avoid thousands of prying eyes from all the occupants of the building to set up explosive charges to achieve a controlled demolition of the building timed for hours after the towers fell?

I don't get it.

[SkinsOrlando]

Everyones missing the most important question. Was there any strawberry milk and a mop located in WTC 7?

[Spaceman Spiff]

Even Kerry in part twelve says "they destroyed building 7 in a controlled fashion".



What would Kerry know about blowing up a building in a controlled fashion?

Only think Kerry knows about blowing is a presidential race.

[Bang]

:munchout: This should be interesting

Oh hell yes, I haven't gotten nearly enough of this the other zillion times it's been brought up.

~Bang

[Kosher Ham]

I don't consider the government behind it, but there is certainly some evidence to prove there was potentially a cover-up.

Some of you guys should open your minds a little more.

[Kosher Ham]

What would Kerry know about blowing up a building in a controlled fashion?

Only think Kerry knows about blowing is a presidential race.

Are you sure about that ?

[TrumanB]

I don't consider the government behind it, but there is certainly some evidence to prove there was potentially a cover-up.
If the government wasn't behind it, what would they be covering up?

[Kosher Ham]

If the government wasn't behind it, what would they be covering up?

The aftermath, the possibility that they had information about the attack, protecting the figures at the time, etc.

You have to believe that it is POSSIBLE, right ?

[helptheSKINS]

So, once the twin towers were hit, the CIA or the Secret Service or Guiliani or the SEC or the Bush administration or Larry Silverstein decided that WTC 7 needed be destroyed too, so in the midst of the chaos a demolition team was sent into a burning building to set up a controlled demolition?

Or the CIA or the Secret Service or Guiliani or the SEC or the Bush administration or Larry Silverstein knew the planes were coming ahead of time, so they sent a demolition team into the WTC 7 building days or weeks before-hand, and the team managed to avoid thousands of prying eyes from all the occupants of the building to set up explosive charges to achieve a controlled demolition of the building timed for hours after the towers fell?

I don't get it.

What's not to get? You just explained it all :laugh: . I feel sorry for the simpled minded 9/11 folks. I'm off to make a you tube video that tells people to rob a bank and send the money to me. I'll just say I'm a scientist.

[TrumanB]

The aftermath, the possibility that they had information about the attack, protecting the figures at the time, etc.

You have to believe that it is POSSIBLE, right ?
Where's the evidence?

[Kosher Ham]

Where's the evidence?

Just watch a few of the videos.

I am not saying it did happen that way, but it is certainly possible.

[RVAbrendan]

The youtube patriots.

Check out the other 2000 threads on 9/11, you'll find what you want in there.

[TrumanB]

Just watch a few of the videos.

I am not saying it did happen that way, but it is certainly possible.
But, don't the videos try to show that the government was involved in 9/11 itself? You said the govenment wasn't involved, but you believed there was a cover-up.

[vegeta613]

Where's the evidence?


Of Advanced warnings?? Well that's easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyWQU46Xx8g

[Touchdown Redskins]

I'd have to watch more of this, but I feel like the building 7 incident is very fishy. The owner of the building made $7 billion by suing his insurance agency, if any of this evidence of controlled demolition is true - which it really actually makes it look like - I'm wondering why nobody has sued him for fraud yet.

Actually, the video clearly states that he considered the two planes separate events on the twin towers. So, he really didn't make any money in that case on WTC7. He made $7 billion on legitimate terrorist attacks on the twin towers.

[Kosher Ham]

But, don't the videos try to show that the government was involved in 9/11 itself? You said the govenment wasn't involved, but you believed there was a cover-up.

I stated the gov wasn't behind it. Not that they didn't know of it. Not that they didn't cover their butts when it hit the fan.

[btfoom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ9BofDUXv0

this is very weired, anyone else question 9/11? was it really terrorist or us.

Here are two very important web-sites that address just your questions. Please review each carefully as they are pretty in-depth. Good Luck.

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=911_morons

and

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=af07

[Mad Mike]

If you REALY want to know the truth...

http://www.debunking911.com/

[vegeta613]

Actually, the video clearly states that he considered the two planes separate events on the twin towers. So, he really didn't make any money in that case on WTC7. He made $7 billion on legitimate terrorist attacks on the twin towers.


So the fact that he bought the towers 6 weeks before 911 that were actually losing more money then they were making at the time and needed to remove the Asbestos fireproofing(which could possibly cost billions) and after the attacks he cleaned up 7 billion and the right to rebuild the complex

Does that look suspicious at all to you?

[sacase]

So let's see, he buys the tower....plants exmplosives without anyone being able to see them, runs the det cord and then by coincidence 9/11 happens and he decides to blow the building. Oh and no one who was involved talks.....Here is a hint....no one can keep a secret that big.

[Kosher Ham]

So let's see, he buys the tower....plants exmplosives without anyone being able to see them, runs the det cord and then by coincidence 9/11 happens and he decides to blow the building. Oh and no one who was involved talks.....Here is a hint....no one can keep a secret that big.

Really ?

Where is Hoffa ?

[TrumanB]

Of Advanced warnings?? Well that's easy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyWQU46Xx8g
Well, sure, there were many advanced warnings, even going all the way back to the Clinton administration. But this video is typical of all the other 9/11 truther videos that I have seen. Here's just one example in that video that I find hilarious: in an ominous voice, the narrator says "why was it that the top brass in the Pentagon cancelled all of their flights on the morning of 9/11?". Oh yeah, they did? So, just because you said it makes it true. What evidence do they have that this really occurred? :doh:

The question is: was the government involved in the 9/11 attacks? One can make the case that the Bush administration was incompetent and/or negligent in the matter, but making that leap to an actual conspiracy is a big one. I haven't seen any credible evidence that supports a conspiracy or a cover-up.

[TrumanB]

Really ?

Where is Hoffa ?
Hoffa? You are trying to equate 9/11 with the disappearance of a single man? :doh:

[Kosher Ham]

Hoffa? You are trying to equate 9/11 with the disappearance of a single man? :doh:

Really ?

Who killed JFK ?

Who decided to kill the Branch Davidians ?

ETC.

Sounds like at least 3 big secrets at this point.

Yet the 9/11 secret must have an exemption.

[vegeta613]

So let's see, he buys the tower....plants exmplosives without anyone being able to see them, runs the det cord and then by coincidence 9/11 happens and he decides to blow the building. Oh and no one who was involved talks.....Here is a hint....no one can keep a secret that big.



They don't really need to keep it a secret

It's not a secret to begin with

If you have the national media calling anyone and everyone who questions the official story crazy then you don't really need to keep it a secret

Even if someone came out and said "Hey here is the Evidence on paper!" The media will either ignore or discredit him anyway

[TrumanB]

Really ?

Who killed JFK ?

Who decided to kill the Branch Davidians ?

ETC.

Sounds like at least 3 big secrets at this point.

Yet the 9/11 secret must have an exemption.
Oh boy. :doh: Time to step out of this thread.

[GibbsFactor]

The fact that we are having this conversation shows that we have lost control of this country. If people believe this stuff fine. I don't know what to believe anymore with this government of ours. I do know I do not trust my own government, the very government I put in office and the very government that is supposed to be supporting me.

So many people believe something like 9/11 could be done by the Government or covered up by the government shows that we really have no control over our country anymore. It's a shame. Voting is rigged, we have artificial interest rates, we can't get off of foreign oil, we borrow to pay for war, the world hates us, people are losing their homes, no one can pay for health care, oil, food.

America isn't so great right now.

[JimmyConway]

The fact that we are having this conversation shows that we have lost control of this country. If people believe this stuff fine. I don't know what to believe anymore with this government of ours. I do know I do not trust my own government, the very government I put in office and the very government that is supposed to be supporting me.

So many people believe something like 9/11 could be done by the Government or covered up by the government shows that we really have no control over our country anymore. It's a shame. Voting is rigged, we have artificial interest rates, we can't get off of foreign oil, we borrow to pay for war, the world hates us, people are losing their homes, no one can pay for health care, oil, food.

America isn't so great right now.

I hate to agree with you but you're right.

[sacase]

Really ?

Who killed JFK ?

Who decided to kill the Branch Davidians ?

ETC.

Sounds like at least 3 big secrets at this point.

Yet the 9/11 secret must have an exemption.

Step away from the compter, turn it off and go live life without being on the internets for a couple years. It will help your sanity.

[TrumanB]

The fact that we are having this conversation shows that we have lost control of this country. If people believe this stuff fine. I don't know what to believe anymore with this government of ours. I do know I do not trust my own government, the very government I put in office and the very government that is supposed to be supporting me.

So many people believe something like 9/11 could be done by the Government or covered up by the government shows that we really have no control over our country anymore. It's a shame. Voting is rigged, we have artificial interest rates, we can't get off of foreign oil, we borrow to pay for war, the world hates us, people are losing their homes, no one can pay for health care, oil, food.

America isn't so great right now.
Oh, the drama. :laugh:

[edgun88]

Bro, don't make 19 year olds around the world look stupid. Don't believe this crap.

You can take any conflict in history and turn it into a conspiracy. 9/11 is no different.

[edgun88]

The fact that we are having this conversation shows that we have lost control of this country. If people believe this stuff fine. I don't know what to believe anymore with this government of ours. I do know I do not trust my own government, the very government I put in office and the very government that is supposed to be supporting me.

So many people believe something like 9/11 could be done by the Government or covered up by the government shows that we really have no control over our country anymore. It's a shame. Voting is rigged, we have artificial interest rates, we can't get off of foreign oil, we borrow to pay for war, the world hates us, people are losing their homes, no one can pay for health care, oil, food.

America isn't so great right now.

That's just the nature of business. All goverments are corrupt in some way, shape or form. It is how it has always been and will always be until the end of time.

[GibbsFactor]

Oh, the drama. :laugh:

Maybe a bit over the top. Maybe people just simply find it hard to believe that so many things happen for such small and unworthy reasons. But so many people question things like JFK, the moon landing, 9/11, why we attacked Iraq. I can't quite put my finger on it. There's so much apathy in this country right now. It's a shame.

[Larry Brown #43]

People often forget that the WTC was attacked before, during Clinton's presidency. Difference was, 9/11 was more successful (from a terrorist's perspective). It's been proven over time that al Qaeda learns from their mistakes, and they clearly made mistakes during their first WTC attack.

But what if their first attack had been more successful, and one or both of the towers had been destroyed? Would we be having these same conspiracy discussions?

Those who are critical of the Bush administration for not acting on available intelligence to prevent 9/11, are you similarly critical of the Clinton administration for not acting on intelligence to prevent the first WTC attack, or the attack on the USS Cole? Because after all, Clinton essentially lucked-out that the first WTC didn't bring more damage and loss of life than it did.

A few other questions. Who flew the planes into the WTC, and what ever happened to the men believed to have been the hijackers, if they didn't do it?

And why did the hijackers send videotapes to al-Jazeera prior to their death discussing their impending "martyrdom" if they weren't involved? And why did bin Laden claim responsibility for 9/11 in a 2004 video?

If I were bin Laden, and I could prove that 9/11 was an inside job and not an al Qaeda project, this would be perhaps the most damaging single event in our nation's history. He could literally destroy us and our government by uncovering such information. Yet he instead claimed responsibility?

What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--Madrid, London, Bali, etc.--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?

[JimmyConway]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x4TD0WP3pM&feature=related

This one is especially funny because it features Bush fielding questions on why him and VP Dick spoke to the commish together.

[Predicto]

If you REALY want to know the truth...

http://www.debunking911.com/


It's all here folks.

Read it. Stop being a sucker and letting a Youtube editor lead you around by your nose.

The guys who make those videos are laughing at you. They are hoping to get you to believe that the moon is made of green cheese next.

Some of you will.

[helptheSKINS]

People often forget that the WTC was attacked before, during Clinton's presidency. Difference was, 9/11 was more successful (from a terrorist's perspective). It's been proven over time that al Qaeda learns from their mistakes, and they clearly made mistakes during their first WTC attack.

But what if their first attack had been more successful, and one or both of the towers had been destroyed? Would we be having these same conspiracy discussions?

Those who are critical of the Bush administration for not acting on available intelligence to prevent 9/11, are you similarly critical of the Clinton administration for not acting on intelligence to prevent the first WTC attack, or the attack on the USS Cole? Because after all, Clinton essentially lucked-out that the first WTC didn't bring more damage and loss of life than it did.

A few other questions. Who flew the planes into the WTC, and what ever happened to the men believed to have been the hijackers, if they didn't do it?

And why did the hijackers send videotapes to al-Jazeera prior to their death discussing their impending "martyrdom" if they weren't involved? And why did bin Laden claim responsibility for 9/11 in a 2004 video?

If I were bin Laden, and I could prove that 9/11 was an inside job and not an al Qaeda project, this would be perhaps the most damaging single event in our nation's history. He could literally destroy us and our government by uncovering such information. Yet he instead claimed responsibility?

What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--Madrid, London, Bali, etc.--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?

You will be amazed by the answers they come back with. Technically they will come back to you with different questions in an effort to confuse the situation. Here's an example for ya:

"Who's to say the first attack wasn't carried out by the US gov't in an effort to bring awareness to AQ? Was this when the worlds greatest pawn AQ was born?"

At this point, they are hoping you forgot about your other perfectly legit questions.

[Koolblue13]

I think the point is, there are plenty of people (60% of the country I believe) who question the official report. We invested $15 million on the 9/11 report and $40 million on Clintons blowjob. Despite people having photographs of a fire burning inside of building 7, before the towers collapsed, nobody has come up with a reason for it collapsing. FEMA handed it off to the NIST, the NIST report was inconclusive and suppost to be finalized last spring, but they have only come out and said they can't say with certainty as to why.

More and more people are questioning this every day. We have hundreds of building in our country, built just like building 7, maybe we should figure out how a diesel fire brought that building down.

I don't think it's crazy to question authority, blind faith is for God (and the Redskins sucsess and cowboys failures).

[Koolblue13]

Maybe a bit over the top. Maybe people just simply find it hard to believe that so many things happen for such small and unworthy reasons. But so many people question things like JFK, the moon landing, 9/11, why we attacked Iraq. I can't quite put my finger on it. There's so much apathy in this country right now. It's a shame.


http://youtube.com/watch?v=26CaVAy6vxU


Here is a good video of the Kennedy assination, questioning who was behind it. I was going to post a thread about it, but I was going to only stop in today and this thread will already have the blood boiling around here today.

[Dance04]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=26CaVAy6vxU


Here is a good video of the Kennedy assination, questioning who was behind it. I was going to post a thread about it, but I was going to only stop in today and this thread will already have the blood boiling around here today.

I posted the full hour and a half video in the JFK thread.

[Dance04]

People often forget that the WTC was attacked before, during Clinton's presidency. Difference was, 9/11 was more successful (from a terrorist's perspective). It's been proven over time that al Qaeda learns from their mistakes, and they clearly made mistakes during their first WTC attack.

But what if their first attack had been more successful, and one or both of the towers had been destroyed? Would we be having these same conspiracy discussions?

Those who are critical of the Bush administration for not acting on available intelligence to prevent 9/11, are you similarly critical of the Clinton administration for not acting on intelligence to prevent the first WTC attack, or the attack on the USS Cole? Because after all, Clinton essentially lucked-out that the first WTC didn't bring more damage and loss of life than it did.

A few other questions. Who flew the planes into the WTC, and what ever happened to the men believed to have been the hijackers, if they didn't do it?

And why did the hijackers send videotapes to al-Jazeera prior to their death discussing their impending "martyrdom" if they weren't involved? And why did bin Laden claim responsibility for 9/11 in a 2004 video?

If I were bin Laden, and I could prove that 9/11 was an inside job and not an al Qaeda project, this would be perhaps the most damaging single event in our nation's history. He could literally destroy us and our government by uncovering such information. Yet he instead claimed responsibility?

What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--Madrid, London, Bali, etc.--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?

Of course, you would need to beleive that al qaeda attacked the WTC the first time. IT was actually the FBI.

As for Al Qaeda and Madrid, there are zero links between the two. The spanish gov't even came out and said themselves that al qaeda had no part in the train bombings.

[Mad Mike]

The fact that we are having this conversation shows that we have lost control of this country. If people believe this stuff fine. I don't know what to believe anymore with this government of ours. I do know I do not trust my own government, the very government I put in office and the very government that is supposed to be supporting me.

So many people believe something like 9/11 could be done by the Government or covered up by the government shows that we really have no control over our country anymore. It's a shame. Voting is rigged, we have artificial interest rates, we can't get off of foreign oil, we borrow to pay for war, the world hates us, people are losing their homes, no one can pay for health care, oil, food.

America isn't so great right now.

Yeah, and I'm sure Ron Paul can fix everything. :rolleyes:

[Mad Mike]

Of course, you would need to beleive that al qaeda attacked the WTC the first time. IT was actually the FBI.

As for Al Qaeda and Madrid, there are zero links between the two. The spanish gov't even came out and said themselves that al qaeda had no part in the train bombings.

You have no link to reality. :doh:

[Mad Mike]

Maybe a bit over the top. Maybe people just simply find it hard to believe that so many things happen for such small and unworthy reasons. But so many people question things like JFK, the moon landing, 9/11, why we attacked Iraq. I can't quite put my finger on it. There's so much apathy in this country right now. It's a shame.

Which is it? Apathy (lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.) or are so many people questioning things?

As to why people buy into these insane theories, it's simple. There is so much garbage content like all of these idiotic YouTube videos that more and more people are getting sucked into a mass insanity. It happens the same way cult leaders get their groups started, the get one person to agree with them, then another, and before you know it, enough people are following along that it looks legitimate to people who should otherwise know better.

[Koolblue13]

I posted the full hour and a half video in the JFK thread.Just checked it, nobody seemed to watch it or at least comment on it.

[Larry Brown #43]

Of course, you would need to beleive that al qaeda attacked the WTC the first time. IT was actually the FBI.
OK, so the conspiracy goes well beyond the Bush administration and involves the Clinton admin as well? Wow, first I've heard that.


As for Al Qaeda and Madrid, there are zero links between the two. The spanish gov't even came out and said themselves that al qaeda had no part in the train bombings.
That doesn't answer my question at all. al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks around the world. As for Madrid, it's pretty well known that the attack was intended to influence their elections, which it certainly did. But let's put Madrid aside for the moment, even though I firmly believe that al Qaeda (or al Qaeda sympathizers) were behind it.

Back to my question...What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?

[Henry]

You will be amazed by the answers they come back with. Technically they will come back to you with different questions in an effort to confuse the situation. Here's an example for ya:

"Who's to say the first attack wasn't carried out by the US gov't in an effort to bring awareness to AQ? Was this when the worlds greatest pawn AQ was born?"

At this point, they are hoping you forgot about your other perfectly legit questions.


Of course, you would need to beleive that al qaeda attacked the WTC the first time. IT was actually the FBI.

And there you go. :)

[TMK9973]

ok - Here is the Truth - If you must know.

I wasn't going to tell anyone, because it could get me killed - But here you go.

Sept 9, 2001 - The Redskins Start off the Marty Schotty Era with a emberssing 30-3 loss against a San Diego team that had only won 1 game the year before.
This was after a emberssing 2000 season, where a Redskins team predicted to win the super bowl, never made the playoffs.

All was lost.

Dan Synder needed a distraction. Need to get the media off his team and focused on something else... ANYTHING else....

I can't say much more... but look at the Staidum... EVERYTHING is Danny's fault.....

[commyderm2]

This always cracks me up.. I have one question for everybody.. IF 9/11 was proven to be an inside job, what do you plan on doing about it??

I ask because there seems to be a lot of people who buy into this, but they are not doing anything at all about it besides complaining... I mean the Government kills thousands and thousands of its own citizens and people know this but they do nothing about it.. hmmm.. I have a pretty open mind, but I have a lot of trouble believing in a conspiracy theory that people who contrive it and buy it don't truly believe in it.. If they did believe in it, there would be an underground revolution beginning as we speak..

[GibbsFactor]

OK, so the conspiracy goes well beyond the Bush administration and involves the Clinton admin as well? Wow, first I've heard that.

That doesn't answer my question at all. al Qaeda has claimed responsibility for numerous attacks around the world. As for Madrid, it's pretty well known that the attack was intended to influence their elections, which it certainly did. But let's put Madrid aside for the moment, even though I firmly believe that al Qaeda (or al Qaeda sympathizers) were behind it.

Back to my question...What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?

You are missing the point of the BIG conspiracy theory. It isn't administration based at all. It's the CFR and the TC! They are the illuminati, those that rule the central banks and soon the world! Da da da!.

OBL is on their pay role. In order to bring the entire world together, these events need to be carried out. First the implementation of central banks, then wars to make money and modify borders, instilling fear into the citizens. Then, Unions such as the EU and the NAU, all based in fiat money systems. Then world economy, then one world government. It's the wave of the future! If anyone gets in the way, they are shot, i.e. Kennedy for stopping WWIII and trying to end the Fed. When a spark is needed, things like 9/11 and antrax happen to "unite" the people.

It's all quite fascinating. I hope one day I can be in the CFR or the TC. It's kinda like wanting to be an auto salesman just to get the real scoop as to what goes on when buying a car. If I can get into the CFR, maybe I too can have access to area 51!

[Koolblue13]

This always cracks me up.. I have one question for everybody.. IF 9/11 was proven to be an inside job, what do you plan on doing about it??

I ask because there seems to be a lot of people who buy into this, but they are not doing anything at all about it besides complaining... I mean the Government kills thousands and thousands of its own citizens and people know this but they do nothing about it.. hmmm.. I have a pretty open mind, but I have a lot of trouble believing in a conspiracy theory that people who contrive it and buy it don't truly believe in it.. If they did believe in it, there would be an underground revolution beginning as we speak..There is an underground movement going on.

http://www.wearechange.org/


and several others as well.

My problem is, it hasn't been proven to me, that building 7 fell because of anything other than what folks like Steven Jones say. Everybody who would have been responsable for allowing it to happen, were promoted, instaed of being fired and there are to many holes on each side to have certainty in either direction.

[helptheSKINS]

And there you go. :)

If only everything was as obvious as conspiracy nuts. I would be a rich man.

[Corcaigh]

I can only wonder at the human mind that would believe the following scenario to be true ...

(1) 9/11 was entirely the work of the US government.
(2) The WTC attacks were staged in order to justify an invasion of Iraq to disarm Saddam of WMDs
(3) Having staged the 9/11 attacks and successfully invaded Iraq, they were unable to 'find' a single WMD.

[TMK9973]

It's all quite fascinating. I hope one day I can be in the CFR or the TC. It's kinda like wanting to be an auto salesman just to get the real scoop as to what goes on when buying a car. If I can get into the CFR, maybe I too can have access to area 51!

I've been there. Your going to freak, but it's now a storage place for all the Pro Ron Paul media and Ron Paul Ballots that have been hidden.....

You always suspected as much, didn't you....

[Baculus]

I have said this before - we can throw out theories surrounding the Pentagon attack as well as issues surrounding the collapse of the World Trade Center and still have viable questions, inconsistencies, and reasons for further investigation.

Often, the collapse of the WTC becomes a red herring and provides a method to distract away from other avenues of questioning.

For example, I'd rather focus on why it took the Bush administration such a lengthy amount of time to event investigate 9-11 and were further reluctant to even fund the 9-11 commission. Originally, President Bush promised $3 million dollars to fund the commission. Isn't that a tiny amount of money to cover an investigation into the deadliest attack on US soil? Even the Challenger accident and the Lewinsky investigation received tens of millions of dollars.

I'd like to pose the question to some folks on this board: If we were really interested in the truth of the matter, why would the administration want to avoid an investigation? Why the secrecy? Why did President Bush and Vice-President Cheney only agree to jointly testify? Why did they attempt to block the creation of an investigation committee, and then attempted to undermine it with a lack of funding?

And members of the commission accused both the CIA and the Pentagon of hindering the investigation. Why would these departments hinder such an investigation? It couldn't have been must a matter of national security, because this investigation was supposed to cut into the heart of why national security was compromised.

There are many, many inconsistencies, strange behavior, and odd events surrounding 9-11. Some of these questions are above and beyond any theories which surround the collapse of the WTC and the attack on the Pentagon. As I mentioned at the start of my post, I could accept the NIST findings and the attack on the Pentagon and still have questions left yet unanswered or addressed.

My intention isn't to state that the government was behind 9-11, because obviously that wouldn't be possible. It would take a faction of the government for such an planned, inside attack to occur, and it most certainly would not require thousands, since only a few dozen folks would have been involved in the Al-Qaida attack on the WTC. This unto itself becomes another "rabbit hole" as well as a red herring, but I don't think we should dismiss such a notion, because we do not know how a dedicated faction with their own ulterior motives and aims would operate. Especially above and beyond the US government. All we have to do is look at Operation Northwoods to understand certain people have rather fanatical notions and they are willing to "break a few eggs for the greater good."

But that is besides the point and a further distraction to the issue at hand.

I will add this - I do find it interesting that "Debunking 9-11" has a section on the possible "real conspiracies," which includes the use of the 9-11 attack for the invasion of Iraq. I wonder if folks such as Mad Mike, who support "Debunking 9-11," would, off hand, further dismiss these accusations of "conspiracy."

http://www.debunking911.com/conspiracy.htm

Again, if 9-11 was used for a motivation to invade Iraq, then the actual attack becomes a distraction away from the ultimate conclusion.

[GibbsFactor]

I've been there. Your going to freak, but it's now a storage place for all the Pro Ron Paul media and Ron Paul Ballots that have been hidden.....

You always suspected as much, didn't you....

It's really not funny at all. If it were your candidate you'd be pretty upset. It's democracy man.

[Predicto]

I will add this - I do find it interesting that "Debunking 9-11" has a section on the possible "real conspiracies," which includes the use of the 9-11 attack for the invasion of Iraq. I wonder if folks such as Mad Mike, who support "Debunking 9-11," would, off hand, further dismiss these accusations of "conspiracy."

http://www.debunking911.com/conspiracy.htm

Again, if 9-11 was used for a motivation to invade Iraq, then the actual attack becomes a distraction away from the ultimate conclusion.

I routinely come on here to debunk conspiracy theories, but I have no problem in believing that the Administration was waiting for an opportunity to attack Iraq and 9/11 gave them that opportunity.

I don't think that is really a "conspiracy theory" at all, but just a question of motivation and intent. MadMike will probably disagree with me on that, but so be it. He and I agree on the more obvious question of whether our own government was in on the 9/11 attacks. It wasn't.

[TMK9973]

It's really not funny at all. If it were your candidate you'd be pretty upset. It's democracy man.

Oh come on.... Not to HiJack - but my canididate didn't get the press I wanted him to (Biden). But I accepted the fact that others just didn't like him....

[Mad Mike]

I can only wonder at the human mind that would believe the following scenario to be true ...

(1) 9/11 was entirely the work of the US government.
(2) The WTC attacks were staged in order to justify an invasion of Iraq to disarm Saddam of WMDs
(3) Having staged the 9/11 attacks and successfully invaded Iraq, they were unable to 'find' a single WMD.


Yeah, right.

They staged the largest conspiracy ever, involving thousands of people in front of millions of witnesses, but they couldn't plant some WMD in the middle of a dessert. :laugh:

:applause:

[Mad Mike]

I routinely come on here to debunk conspiracy theories, but I have no problem in believing that the Administration was waiting for an opportunity to attack Iraq and 9/11 gave them that opportunity.

I don't think that is really a "conspiracy theory" at all, but just a question of motivation and intent. MadMike will probably disagree with me on that, but so be it. He and I agree on the more obvious question of whether our own government was in on the 9/11 attacks. It wasn't.

I don't think we are that far off on this. To me WMD was only part of the reason we needed to get rid of Saddam. His general open support of terrorism, his known contacts with al Qaeda, his destabilizing influence in the middle east, his hatred for the US and his desire for revenge, all added up to a dangerous package post 9/11. I always believed that Bush oversold the WMD issue and undersold the other reasons for invading. However I think he did so for legal (UN and international law) reasons which I understand. I also believe he thought they were there or he would not have set himself up for such a backlash.

In short, I don't think Bush used 9/11 so much as he was influenced by it. I think he "used" WMD to make his legal case. Whether he was right or not only history will decide, long after all of the repercussions are clear.

[Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin]

Here's the thing and no one has answered me:

1) At what point do you look at the previous WTC attack, the previous terrorist incidents, both 'rogue' and organized, the USS COle, Khobar Towers, and Ahmad Shah Masood's assassination and say, "this is the end of a pattern. Not something incredibly new. They planned to do something like this before?"

2) Do any of you conspiracy idiots know anything about Operation Bojinka and Ramzi Yousef (and his plans for the use of planes?)

3) Are you loons aware that much of the same speculation and theorizing was done in the wake of the OKC bombing, I mean some of the SAME EXACT hypotheses and arguments??

4) At what point do you take the years of propaganda, actual strategy and tactics of ISlamist terrorists for real and why do you continue to demonstrate such ignorance of history, the facts, science, etc?

5) DO you understand the psychological phenomenon of conspiracism (for lack of a better term) be it JFK, alien abductions, Roswell, 9/11, OKC, the sinking of the Lusitania and some of the more off-the-wall ideas about the Rothschilds and Federal Reserve?

6) Do any of you guys think it's EASIER to maintain a conspiracy among a HUGE group of individuals rather than small groups or single actors?

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

I don't think it's fair to call some of us questioning this "loons" and "idiots". Some of us are new to this, including myself. Earlier I was trying to get answers, since this isn't my specialty.

I'd do my homework on this, but it's a job for a high-ranking legal team, not a job for me. So until or [if] anything develops, I'll keep an interest. Many good arguments are made in this thread. I do ask the question - could it be a cooperative type of terrorist attack? Maybe the terrorists had 90% to do with all the destruction and death, but the U.S. did give a little nudge here and there? Or do most of you throw it completely out the window? (I'm learning here, please don't attack a man)

[thehogs]

It's all here folks.

The guys who make those videos are laughing at you. They are hoping to get you to believe that the moon is made of green cheese next.



Careful, Predicto. I made a similar man in the moon comment earlier and was picked up on for exaggerating examples from outer space to try to debunk 9/11 conspiracies when the man in the moon claim isnt the same as what happened on 9/11. Really? :doh:

[Henry]

Here's what I posted in the last one of these threads. Never got much in the way of a satisfactory answer other than 'darn it, it LOOKS like a demolition to me!'

Quick question -

What is the tallest skyscraper ever destroyed with explosives? (other than the WTC of course)

Quick answer -

Hudsen's Department Store in Detriot.
26 stories.
439 feet tall.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030225133807

That's the tallest building ever brought down by explosives. It took months of preparation. And yet some of you are suggesting two 1200-foot tall structures were brought down with only two days for several guys in overalls to secretly place explosives?

Wow.

Let me add here that 7 WTC, the building Rosie O'Donnell is all hot-and-bothered about, and the one most theorists are convinced about, is over 700 feet tall and 52 stories high.

So we are to believe that three buildings, 2-3 times higher than the tallest skyscraper ever demolished by explosives, were secretly destroyed in this manner. On the same day. By George Bush.

Yeah ... that's plausible.

[BigMike619]

Man we were wrong about GW all along. He isnt stoopid, hes smrt.

Anyone who can secretly destroy buildings and kill thousands just to teach us a lesson is like the Einstein of our times.

Me loves yoo G Dubya..

*************

get a grip man...

[Dance04]

Of all the things 9/11, the smoking gun is the pentagon. I think everyone can agree that no plane ever flew into the pentagon.

the official story goes like this: "The fires from the crash were so hot that they melted the plane. that's why you can't see it". yet, everyone was identified who was on that plane.

Fires hot enough to melt metal, but not people? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[vegeta613]

Of all the things 9/11, the smoking gun is the pentagon. I think everyone can agree that no plane ever flew into the pentagon.

the official story goes like this: "The fires from the crash were so hot that they melted the plane. that's why you can't see it". yet, everyone was identified who was on that plane.

Fires hot enough to melt metal, but not people? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:



Don't start using logic dude

The Government said it was Osama

Get on board or go to Canada :doh:

[Dance04]

Don't start using logic dude

The Government said it was Osama

Get on board or go to Canada :doh:

I am in Canada. :D

[vegeta613]

To tell you the truth I think this video has smoking gun evidence as well on flight 93 in Shanksville Pennsylvania

They show a overhead pic of the area of the crash in 1994 and most of those scars that the plane appeared to cause was already there before the crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-59kouBgO_s

[JimmyConway]

Here's what I posted in the last one of these threads. Never got much in the way of a satisfactory answer other than 'darn it, it LOOKS like a demolition to me!'

Quick question -

What is the tallest skyscraper ever destroyed with explosives? (other than the WTC of course)

Quick answer -

Hudsen's Department Store in Detriot.
26 stories.
439 feet tall.

http://www.controlled-demolition.com/default.asp?reqLocId=7&reqItemId=20030225133807

That's the tallest building ever brought down by explosives. It took months of preparation. And yet some of you are suggesting two 1200-foot tall structures were brought down with only two days for several guys in overalls to secretly place explosives?



Wasn't the Stardust 32 stories?

[vegeta613]

I am in Canada. :D

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Didn't notice

[Skins24]

Most of this stuff can be debunked by just THINKING and using common sense :laugh:
But people want to believe youtube videos with buzz words and nice music instead. These people SCARE me.

These people want so bad for the government to be responsible that they completely ignore logical thinking. That is the main reason why I've pretty much stop discussing this with people claiming to be "searching for the truth." Biggest buch of BS ever. They're not searching for the truth, they're searching for what they WANT to have happened and any evidence showing otherwise is COMPLETELY ignored. When pressed on that evidence they run away for a while, wait til things die down a bit, then come back posting the same stuff over again.

[AzSkinsFan63]

HOLY CRAP!!!

Does anyone else know about all this...We must do something pronto.

As soon as I get out of this padded cell we are gonna rock and roll!!! :applause:

[portisizzle]

People PLEASE go to a website where this stuff gets some traction.... :laugh:


ats.com

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

9/11 Coincidences Created by: 909997 Replies: 99 Views: 909

This is getting creapier by the second. Four 9's and one 0 in your sn, four 9's and one 0 in the replies and views.

[vegeta613]

Most of this stuff can be debunked by just THINKING and using common sense :laugh:
But people want to believe youtube videos with buzz words and nice music instead. These people SCARE me.


Ok then please use your all knowing common sense and debunk the video I just posted

Only 4 minutes long and they just observe, present the evidence and use basic logic to question the situation

But I would love for you to use your common sense and debunk it if you can spare 4 minutes of your time to take a quick look at it

[Dance04]

To tell you the truth I think this video has smoking gun evidence as well on flight 93 in Shanksville Pennsylvania

They show a overhead pic of the area of the crash in 1994 and most of those scars that the plane appeared to cause was already there before the crash

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-59kouBgO_s

good vid vegeta.

here's a pentagon pic

http://libertyboy.free.fr/misc/attack/2001_09_11_pentagon_plane/theory_pix/pelouse.jpg

[Corcaigh]

the official story goes like this: "The fires from the crash were so hot that they melted the plane. that's why you can't see it". yet, everyone was identified who was on that plane.

Wrong and wrong.

There is plenty of wreckage in the Pentagon photos if you care to look. The black boxes were recovered. Numerous eyewitnesses saw the plane fly low through the area and into the Pentagon.

Not everyone was indentified on the plane. The remains of those who were not identified are interred at Arlington National Cemetry.

[Skins24]

Of all the things 9/11, the smoking gun is the pentagon. I think everyone can agree that no plane ever flew into the pentagon.
Yep! The people watching the "plane" from above and below it were just seeing the 4th generation hologram that the CIA just deployed.
The real plane was teleported to the moon where the people run a slave colony full of ancient Mayans.
All the bodies found were planted secretly by guys with the latest cloaking device technology.
And of course the explosion was just a controlled demolotion.


That is the latest theory right? Or did it change again this week?

[Tennessee Ed]

Of all the things 9/11, the smoking gun is the pentagon. I think everyone can agree that no plane ever flew into the pentagon.

the official story goes like this: "The fires from the crash were so hot that they melted the plane. that's why you can't see it". yet, everyone was identified who was on that plane.

Fires hot enough to melt metal, but not people? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

What about the witnesses on the ground (several hundred) that were driving into work that morning, who saw the AA plane hit the building?

[vegeta613]

good vid vegeta.

here's a pentagon pic

http://libertyboy.free.fr/misc/attack/2001_09_11_pentagon_plane/theory_pix/pelouse.jpg

Where's that wreckage hiding?

http://911truth.tripod.com/5.jpg

Before and after the collapse pic

Still trying to figure out how and where the plane hit the building and evaporated

If it did it must've gotten sucked into the building through a straw

[portisizzle]

What about the witnesses on the ground (several hundred) that were driving into work that morning, who saw the AA plane hit the building?

i know one person who was in this situation. He of course knows where all you conspiracy theorists can stuff this. Real people died that day. Do you realize how much of an insult this talk is?

[Mad Mike]

What about the witnesses on the ground (several hundred) that were driving into work that morning, who saw the AA plane hit the building?

I've already been down this road in another thread and posted links to hundreds of quotes from people who saw the plane go in. The loons don't buy it. Three people who were witnesses gave somewhat contradictory quotes or something so the hundreds of quotes saying they saw the plane don't count. :doh:

At some point you have to just give up and realize that these people are crazy.

[Dance04]

What about the witnesses on the ground (several hundred) that were driving into work that morning, who saw the AA plane hit the building?

I've never heard any witness accounts of people seeing the plane. Admitedly, I have not looked very hard. Besides, what about all the eye witness accounts that say they NEVER saw a plane?


Wrong and wrong.

There is plenty of wreckage in the Pentagon photos if you care to look. The black boxes were recovered. Numerous eyewitnesses saw the plane fly low through the area and into the Pentagon.

Not everyone was indentified on the plane. The remains of those who were not identified are interred at Arlington National Cemetry.

Lots of wreckage, no plane. The grass perfectly intact. No reported turbulance over the highway.

http://www.freedomunderground.org/memoryhole/pentagon.php

http://physics911.net/images/pentpic4.jpg
http://www.sunspot.net/media/photo/2001-09/634945.jpg
http://libertyboy.free.fr/misc/attack/2001_09_11_pentagon_plane/theory_pix/pelouse.jpg
http://physics911.net/images/exit3.jpeg
what is that little hole? The tip of the plane did that?? hahaha

So like I said, a plane disapears, but peoples bodies can be identified. give me a break


Yep! The people watching the "plane" from above and below it were just seeing the 4th generation hologram that the CIA just deployed.
The real plane was teleported to the moon where the people run a slave colony full of ancient Mayans.
All the bodies found were planted secretly by guys with the latest cloaking device technology.
And of course the explosion was just a controlled demolotion.


That is the latest theory right? Or did it change again this week?

a missile hit the pentagon. nothing was a controlled demolition.

Infact, people reported feeling secondary explosions and smelling cordite. If your gonna throw out those witness accounts, then you need to throw out the witness accounts that "saw a plane"

[Skins24]

Ok then please use your all knowing common sense and debunk the video I just posted

Only 4 minutes long and they just observe, present the evidence and use basic logic to question the situation

But I would love for you to use your common sense and debunk it if you can spare 4 minutes of your time to take a quick look at it
You think that USGS photo was from 1994 and the Shanksville area why? Because a youtube video told you it was. :laugh:
Of course the video only shows you select pictures. The photos from the trial show plenty of debris but of course this will just be ignored and a youtube video showing what they want you to see will be taken as gospel.

And they try to compare other plane crashes. Crashes which were NOT highjackings, meaning the pilots where doing everything in their power to level the plane off and keep it from crashing not purposely driving it into the ground.

Was flight 93 also teleported to the moon?

[portisizzle]

At some point you have to just give up and realize that these people are crazy.

....and dangerous.

[Dance04]

What about the witnesses on the ground (several hundred) that were driving into work that morning, who saw the AA plane hit the building?

http://physics911.net/pentcrashvideo

[Dance04]

And they try to compare other plane crashes. Crashes which were NOT highjackings, meaning the pilots where doing everything in their power to level the plane off and keep it from crashing not purposely driving it into the ground.



some eyewitnesses claim the plane bounced off the ground first.

see how innacurate these eye witness accounts are?

[portisizzle]

Infact, people reported feeling secondary explosions and smelling cordite. If your gonna throw out those witness accounts, then you need to throw out the witness accounts that "saw a plane"

No.

[portisizzle]

some eyewitnesses claim the plane bounced off the ground first.

see how innacurate these eye witness accounts are?

All I can see is how inaccurate your representation of the facts are in this case. I don't blame you. I blame those that have given you poor information. Now you think you have a better handle on this than the Pentagon.

Good luck convincing us of that.

[Skins24]

a missile hit the pentagon. nothing was a controlled demolition.

Infact, people reported feeling secondary explosions and smelling cordite. If your gonna throw out those witness accounts, then you need to throw out the witness accounts that "saw a plane"
Ok, I just said I don't discuss this stuff any more with people like you for this very reason. So this will probably be my last response for a while...

1. They were tracking this plane from the ground and air. MANY people saw this plane crash with their own eyes (I know some people). National airport is right there, so everyone in that area knows what the **** a plane looks like. How could so many have mistaken it for a missile. How did that missile grow wings long enough to clip those light poles. Why did the missile not explode when it hit those light poles. And since they were tracking it, how did the plane magically disappear into thin air and a missile magically appear from thin air in it's place?

2. You have any credible source saying people smelled cordite? I can guarantee you that most people don't even know what cordite is. Also, have you ever smelled the air after a plane crash? How do you know it's different than from when a missile hits? How many people have witnessed both and know what both smell like?

[Tennessee Ed]

i know one person who was in this situation. He of course knows where all you conspiracy theorists can stuff this. Real people died that day. Do you realize how much of an insult this talk is?

My uncle was in the part that burned, so did he, nuff said

[Mad Mike]

Where's that wreckage hiding?

Still trying to figure out how and where the plane hit the building and evaporated

If it did it must've gotten sucked into the building through a straw

Because yeah, when something built as thin and light as an airplane hits a building built like a fortress while loaded with explosive fuel at several hundred miles an hour, I expect a frame to be sitting there in full view. :rolleyes:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

[thehogs]

presumably this is part of the lie and cover up as well, wreckage and all:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

[vegeta613]

You think that USGS photo was from 1994 and the Shanksville area why? Because a youtube video told you it was. :laugh:
Of course the video only shows you select pictures. The photos from the trial show plenty of debris but of course this will just be ignored and a youtube video showing what they want you to see will be taken as gospel.

And they try to compare other plane crashes. Crashes which were NOT highjackings, meaning the pilots where doing everything in their power to level the plane off and keep it from crashing not purposely driving it into the ground.

Was flight 93 also teleported to the moon?


Is that what your Common sense is telling you?? It's on youtube and it's made to make things look the way they are?? :doh:

Your common sense seems to be blind to simple logic

Just a hole no fire and the wreckage is so small that it can be picked up and removed from the hole by hand and on top of that the crash scar just happened to already be there before the crash

But all the bodies could be identified even though you can't see any of them from the footage taken from the crash site

You can call people crazy all you want for using their own logic to view the situation and you can go on blindly believing the official story

Either way your common sense is laughable in my opinion

[portisizzle]

presumably this is part of the lie and cover up as well, wreckage and all:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

ATS isn't full of wacko conspiracy theorists after all. huh......

[Corcaigh]

I am in Canada. :D

It's reassuring in a way that the 9/11 conspiracy delusions aren't limited to residents the 50 US states.

[Dance04]

Ok, I just said I don't discuss this stuff any more with people like you for this very reason. So this will probably be my last response for a while...

1. They were tracking this plane from the ground and air. MANY people saw this plane crash with their own eyes (I know some people). National airport is right there, so everyone in that area knows what the **** a plane looks like. How could so many have mistaken it for a missile. How did that missile grow wings long enough to clip those light poles. Why did the missile not explode when it hit those light poles. And since they were tracking it, how did the plane magically disappear into thin air and a missile magically appear from thin air in it's place?

2. You have any credible source saying people smelled cordite? I can guarantee you that most people don't even know what cordite is. Also, have you ever smelled the air after a plane crash? How do you know it's different than from when a missile hits? How many people have witnessed both and know what both smell like?

my sources for people smelling cordite are about as credible as your sources for people saying they saw a plane.

If you want to beleive some man who barely fly a personal plane, flew a boeing into the pentagon and performed air maneuvers that are deemed impossible then that's your choice.

My choice is to not.

where is the plane. it magically disapeared just like my missile magically appeared.

I tried not to get involved in this thread, as all it would do is create a pissing match. thats not my goal and im sure its not yours. I present ideas that I beleive and so do you. nothing is gonna come of this, im not gonna change anyones position, and i doubt you will as well

[Dance04]

It's reassuring in a way that the 9/11 conspiracy delusions aren't limited to residents the 50 US states.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[vegeta613]

Because yeah, when something built as thin and light as an airplane hits a building built like a fortress while loaded with explosive fuel at several hundred miles an hour, I expect a frame to be sitting there in full view. :rolleyes:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml



But a plane is much denser than people no??? So how come no one can Identify the plane but they could Identify all the bodies??

Do you have a website that can explain that to me?

[Predicto]

Do you guys even have any idea what a jet airliner is?

It is basically a hollow aluminum tube, made as light as possible, with a couple of huge engines driving it. It is not big or strong. It has two wings full of jet fuel. When it crashes into a reinforced concreted building, it is going to collapse into the hole it makes and explode. It is not going to leave nice big pieces lying there for idiots to gawk at. The only big pieces that are going to be left are the engines, because they are the only solid thing about an airplane.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

Besides, even if that isn't compelling to you, I personally know two people who saw the plane fly right over their head that morning. So let it go, please.

[Predicto]

But a plane is much denser than people no??? ?

No. It is much much, much LESS dense. It is an aluminum balloon. If it was more dense, they would not be able to make it fly.

[Skins24]

Is that what your Common sense is telling you?? It's on youtube and it's made to make things look the way they are?? :doh:

Your common sense seems to be blind to simple logic

Just a hole no fire and the wreckage is so small that it can be picked up and removed from the hole by hand and on top of that the crash scar just happened to already be there before the crash

But all the bodies could be identified even though you can't see any of them from the footage taken from the crash site

You can call people crazy all you want for using their own logic to view the situation and you can go on blindly believing the official story

Either way your common sense is laughable in my opinion


my sources for people smelling cordite are about as credible as your sources for people saying they saw a plane.

If you want to beleive some man who barely fly a personal plane, flew a boeing into the pentagon and performed air maneuvers that are deemed impossible then that's your choice.

My choice is to not.

where is the plane. it magically disapeared just like my missile magically appeared.

I tried not to get involved in this thread, as all it would do is create a pissing match. thats not my goal and im sure its not yours. I present ideas that I beleive and so do you. nothing is gonna come of this, im not gonna change anyones position, and i doubt you will as well
This isn't a response, just another observation I forgot to add.

What you guys just did is exactly people like you always do. You both FAILED to address anything in my post. You just quoted me to say I'm wrong :laugh:

Carry on :laugh:

[portisizzle]

my sources for people smelling cordite are about as credible as your sources for people saying they saw a plane.

If you want to beleive some man who barely fly a personal plane, flew a boeing into the pentagon and performed air maneuvers that are deemed impossible then that's your choice.

My choice is to not.

where is the plane. it magically disapeared just like my missile magically appeared.

I tried not to get involved in this thread, as all it would do is create a pissing match. thats not my goal and im sure its not yours. I present ideas that I beleive and so do you. nothing is gonna come of this, im not gonna change anyones position, and i doubt you will as well


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2001/09/12/victim-capsule-flight77.htm

Real people died that day.

[philal0102]

I've already been down this road in another thread and posted links to hundreds of quotes from people who saw the plane go in. The loons don't buy it. Three people who were witnesses gave somewhat contradictory quotes or something so the hundreds of quotes saying they saw the plane don't count. :doh:

At some point you have to just give up and realize that these people are crazy.

At some point YOU have to realize that you're just a mouse for the power's that control you. The wealthy men who control the banking, who have judge's in there back pockets, so they can have absolute power. The people you should be afraid of are the people that by into these false accounts, and think that Osama Bin Laden planned 9/11, and got suicide bombers to fly planes into the WTC. Our government did it to us, so they could scare us, and your the epitome of what they want. Just believe the masses buddy.

[chiefhogskin48]

After reading this thread, I think the human race may be getting dumber and more gullible by the year...

[portisizzle]

At some point YOU have to realize that you're just a mouse for the power's that control you. The wealthy men who control the banking, who have judge's in there back pockets, so they can have absolute power. The people you should be afraid of are the people that by into these false accounts, and think that Osama Bin Laden planned 9/11, and got suicide bombers to fly planes into the WTC. Our government did it to us, so they could scare us, and your the epitome of what they want. Just believe the masses buddy.

Sounds like it is you who has the mouse in his pocket. Better get that fixed.

[philal0102]

Do you guys even have any idea what a jet airliner is?

It is basically a hollow aluminum tube, made as light as possible, with a couple of huge engines driving it. It is not big or strong. It has two wings full of jet fuel. When it crashes into a reinforced concreted building, it is going to collapse into the hole it makes and explode. It is not going to leave nice big pieces lying there for idiots to gawk at. The only big pieces that are going to be left are the engines, because they are the only solid thing about an airplane.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg1

Besides, even if that isn't compelling to you, I personally know two people who saw the plane fly right over their head that morning. So let it go, please.

Im sure they did... And the media stuffing it down our throats that "A plane flew into the Pentagon." has nothing to do with it right?

[portisizzle]

Im sure they did... And the media stuffing it down our throats that "A plane flew into the Pentagon." has nothing to do with it right?

You have to account for the person I know who was there as well. Don't be a dumb dumb. Dumb Dumb.

[philal0102]

You have to account for the person I know who was there as well. Don't be a dumb dumb. Dumb Dumb.

I am.... Those people, along with you are part of that group called Americans... The stupid ones. Ya know which one's I'm talking about? The one's who's minds are closed to anything that's out of their "Safe Zone". If it's out of the ordinary... It's not true. I know your kind dude.

[thehogs]

Im sure they did... And the media stuffing it down our throats that "A plane flew into the Pentagon." has nothing to do with it right?

what exactly are the conspiracy guys shoving down your throat that is so true? when people ask for concrete evidence to back up claims all that is ever presented is video or pictures support by conjecture, nothing else....'could be', 'an expert says','its a missile','a bomb on the 23rd floor of T7','this/that is impossible'......no one ever produces a single item to say, here, here is the one item of hard fact (a detonator, remains of explosive devices, whatever), the truth that destroys everything the government says and proves everything that we claim. Nothing.

Then to top it all we are patronised by being told that WE are the ones being deluded and beleiving in a pack of lies. Wake up kid.

[Predicto]

Im sure they did... And the media stuffing it down our throats that "A plane flew into the Pentagon." has nothing to do with it right?

Well, I think my uncle is smart enough to recognize a plane when it flies right beside his car, way too close to the ground and well off of the flightpaths to or from National Airport.

Has anyone seen the wife of the Solicitor General of the United States lately? What, she disappeared? How odd.

[Baculus]

I don't think we are that far off on this. To me WMD was only part of the reason we needed to get rid of Saddam. His general open support of terrorism, his known contacts with al Qaeda, his destabilizing influence in the middle east, his hatred for the US and his desire for revenge, all added up to a dangerous package post 9/11. I always believed that Bush oversold the WMD issue and undersold the other reasons for invading. However I think he did so for legal (UN and international law) reasons which I understand. I also believe he thought they were there or he would not have set himself up for such a backlash.

In regard to the reasons you provided, I want to ask you a few questions:

1. If Saddam intended to collaborate with terrorists, as far as WMDs are concerned, how come we haven't seen any use of possible Iraq-linked chemical weapons? After all, Saddam had plenty of chances to provide WMDs to Al-Qaida and other organizations.

Invading Iraq wouldn't have prevented such weapons from being provided to terrorists. Not only did Saddam had months before the invasion to do so, he had years as well.

2. Saddam did have some ties to terrorists, such as his contributions to families of suicide bombers. But that raises other questions regarding terrorism and nation-support of terrorism.

Investigations did not find any ties of between 9-11, Al-Qaida, and Iraq, and even though a Saddam painting of 9-11 is a horrible piece of artwork, that is not evidence of Saddam's ties to that event. Why the continued effort to draw a correlation between Saddam and 9-11?

"...his hatred for the US and his desire for revenge, all added up to a dangerous package post 9/11."

3. Did we invade because of Saddam's contributions to suicide bombers? Did we invade because terrorist Abu Abbas was found to be living in Iraq? In short, are Iraqi-terrorist connections enough reasons to have invaded Iraq? Even at the costs of thousands of lives and billions of dollars? Where was evidence of an immediate threat which had to be resolved through an invasion? Where was the evidence that Saddam and terrorists, in particular Al-Qaida, were formulating a large planned attacks using WMDs or even conventional weapons of some type?

And, at the time of the invasion, was Iraq even the top sponsor of terrorism, including US allies?

4. Was Saddam enough of a destabilizing influence to justify an invasion? If you ask me, taking note of world events in Asia and Africa, there a lot of destabilizing regional nations. And while the invasion of Kuwait was obviously a destabilizing event, Iraq was subsequently quiet in its efforts, since getting a rear-kicking and international isolationism.

Was Iraqi, from the early 90's to the early 21st century, actually destabilizing the region? Were oil production or prices influenced by Saddam in some manner, or did he invade or attack any other nations in that region? And, in particular, enough to warrant an invasion of the region?

[Predicto]

I am.... Those people, along with you are part of that group called Americans... The stupid ones. Ya know which one's I'm talking about? The one's who's minds are closed to anything that's out of their "Safe Zone". If it's out of the ordinary... It's not true. I know your kind dude.

Sorry, but you don't know dick about any of us. Grow up.

[portisizzle]

I am.... Those people, along with you are part of that group called Americans... The stupid ones. Ya know which one's I'm talking about? The one's who's minds are closed to anything that's out of their "Safe Zone". If it's out of the ordinary... It's not true. I know your kind dude.

I think something fishy happened with JFK. I get it.

9/11 is not JFK. It was a tragedy. On par with Pearl Harbor.

Now about this safety zone.....you need help. Here is your medicine. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/118/pg1/srtpages

[philal0102]

Sorry, but you don't know dick about any of us. Grow up.

Everything that has been planted in your mind is too deep rooted. You're a goner man. You have no opened mind to anything out of the ordinary. All I know about you is what you post on here.... Sorry to say, it's not the most flattering. (no disrespect)

[philal0102]

I think something fishy happened with JFK. I get it.

9/11 is not JFK. It was a tragedy. On par with Pearl Harbor.

Now about this safety zone.....you need help. Here is your medicine. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/118/pg1/srtpages

And here is your's....

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

This will put to rest any questions you have about religion, 9/11, or our federal banking system.

[Baculus]

I think something fishy happened with JFK. I get it.

9/11 is not JFK. It was a tragedy. On par with Pearl Harbor.

Now about this safety zone.....you need help. Here is your medicine. http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/118/pg1/srtpages

If it was on par with Pearl Harbor, what was the reason for administration's avoidance of investigating the attack, as well as underfunding the 9-11 Commission?

No, I am not saying "This is evidence of government involvement!" But it is rather abnormal behavior for an attack on the scale, as you mentioned, of Pearl Harbor.

[portisizzle]

And here is your's....

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

This will put to rest any questions you have about religion, 9/11, or our federal banking system.

I throw you a link for the best wacko site on the web an you give me THIS? :laugh:

Ron Paul makes good points. But why go off tangent? Stay focused and try to insult me like you did Predicto. It is helping make the case for you. It might not be the case you want made...but.....

[portisizzle]

If it was on par with Pearl Harbor, what was the reason for administration's avoidance of investigating the attack, as well as underfunding the 9-11 Commission?

No, I am not saying "This is evidence of government involvement!" But it is rather abnormal behavior for an attack on the scale, as you mentioned, of Pearl Harbor.

What makes you think a thorough investigation was not performed? Because you did not see it on CNN? Why give the media the opportunity to expose all of our weaknesses? For crying out loud who was the guy on CNN that was in Baghdad while it was being bombed giving out all the intelligence Saddam needed to defend on national TV???

[portisizzle]

For crying out loud who was the guy on CNN that was in Baghdad while it was being bombed giving out all the intelligence Saddam needed to defend on national TV???

http://www.anusha.com/osamaint.htm Peter Arnette.


1997 interview with Osama by Arnette....

Q) What are your future plans?

BIN LADIN: You'll see them and hear about them in the media, God willing.




You kidding me?!?!?!?! :mad:

[thehogs]

"Everything that has been planted in your mind is too deep rooted....."

That is such a constructed statement that someone quite clearly put it in YOUR mind.

[GoSkins561]

All I can is those people are whack jobs.

[Baculus]

What makes you think a thorough investigation was not performed? Because you did not see it on CNN? Why give the media the opportunity to expose all of our weaknesses?

Expose all of our weaknesses? Do you really believe that any media investigation would have really exposed any other weaknesses, especially since the attack had already taken place? This is the exact type of compartmentalizing that would have both allowed the attacks to have happened, as well as preventing any future attacks.

"Hey, we can't let anyone know about WHY this happened, because then we'd have to fix it! And, oh, they'd know our weaknesses."

An post-attack commission servers a role of notifying the public, "This is being looked into by the Federal government."

That was not created until months and months after the attack.

Not only that, but it deals with more than just physical investigation of the attack, but covers the background of why and how it happened. This is exactly what the Bush administration was attempting to originally block, as well as a public inquiry into the attack.


For crying out loud who was the guy on CNN that was in Baghdad while it was being bombed giving out all the intelligence Saddam needed to defend on national TV???

I fail to see what this has anything to do with my question. It is somewhat out of left field. What?

[Reic]

Im sure they did... And the media stuffing it down our throats that "A plane flew into the Pentagon." has nothing to do with it right?

Yeah, I will have to take the word of my dad and his friends, who were firefighters there at the pentagon all day, over you, in Arizona, knowing (not much at that) only what you read.

[portisizzle]

Expose all of our weaknesses? Do you really believe that any media investigation would have really exposed any other weaknesses, especially since the attack had already taken place? This is the exact type of compartmentalizing that would have both allowed the attacks to have happened, as well as preventing any future attacks.

"Hey, we can't let anyone know about WHY this happened, because then we'd have to fix it! And, oh, they'd know our weaknesses."

An post-attack commission servers a role of notifying the public, "This is being looked into by the Federal government."

That was not created until months and months after the attack.

Not only that, but it deals with more than just physical investigation of the attack, but covers the background of why and how it happened. This is exactly what the Bush administration was attempting to originally block, as well as a public inquiry into the attack.



I fail to see what this has anything to do with my question. It is somewhat out of left field. What?

Bacalus, an investigation was done. Arnette is a traitor. Agree or disagree 9/11 was not a conspiracy. The government can't handle my money properly yet they can cover up a massive hit on New York and Washington. :laugh:

[Predicto]

Everything that has been planted in your mind is too deep rooted. You're a goner man. You have no opened mind to anything out of the ordinary. All I know about you is what you post on here.... Sorry to say, it's not the most flattering. (no disrespect)

No disrespect. Sure. Gotcha.

By the way, I loved yoyur earlier comment: :The wealthy men who control the banking, who have judge's in there back pockets...."

My wife is a bank regulator. I work for judges. We both know how things work in our areas of expertise, and I'm sorry to say, it is a lot more mundane than you think it is. There are no "Stonecutters."

http://video.aol.com/partner/hulu/the-simpsons-stone-cutters-song/9BPs104xhPVvz8MDy-yCeofa2Lp7Qzvp


This may be the only thread in the history of the Tailgate where portisizzle and I have agreed. Freaky...

[Baculus]

Bacalus, an investigation was done. Arnette is a traitor. Agree or disagree 9/11 was not a conspiracy. The government can't handle my money properly yet they can cover up a massive hit on New York and Washington. :laugh:

I never said that an FBI investigation or a law-enforcement investigation didn't take place. You are avoiding the question.

Why would the Bush administration attempt to block and underfund the formation of the 9-11 Commission, which was an investigatory and fact-finding body?

This has nothing to do with a "WTC" or "Pentagon" theory. After all, if the administration was trying to cover-up incompetence, that would be motivation enough to block a commission.

I said it just a few pages ago - I do not think the government was behind 9-11.

I have no idea why you are bringing up Arnette.

[Predicto]

For crying out loud who was the guy on CNN that was in Baghdad while it was being bombed giving out all the intelligence Saddam needed to defend on national TV???

What the?

Our military didn't mind having guys like Arnette in Baghdad. He had no inside information to give the Iraqis, and his reporing added to the "shock and awe" factor. He wasn't a traitor at all.

[portisizzle]

What the?

Our military didn't mind having guys like Arnette in Baghdad. He had no inside information to give the Iraqis, and his reporing added to the "shock and awe" factor. He wasn't a traitor at all.

I am thinking the first gulf war. Arnette was not there for the post 9/11 war. He was criticized. Quite correctly I might add.

And he interviewed Osama. Why not tip off the government so we could catch him?!?!?! Maybe traitor is too strong a word..........



nahhhhh. He was a traitor.

[909997]

so no one can give me a good reason, why i shouldn't believe this video?

[Predicto]

I am thinking the first gulf war. Arnette was not there for the post 9/11 war. He was criticized. Quite correctly I might add.

You are right, it wasn't Arnette. It was Wolf Blitzer I was thinking of anyway.

Point remains - none of those guys have any information to give the Iraqis. At worst, they are showing us what is going on there. The only think they can really do is maybe get blown up. That is hardly treason.

[Predicto]

so no one can give me a good reason, why i shouldn't believe this video?

What? We gave you several links to detailed sites that debunk everything, point by point. Try www.debunking911.com

I'm certainly not going to waste my time doing it anymore.

[Kosher Ham]

Yeah, I will have to take the word of my dad and his friends, who were firefighters there at the pentagon all day, over you, in Arizona, knowing (not much at that) only what you read.

Because they see plane/missile crashes every day.

[909997]

What? We gave you several links to detailed sites that debunk everything, point by point. Try www.debunking911.com (http://www.debunking911.com)

I'm certainly not going to waste my time doing it anymore.

so u want me to believe this over the other video, which included scientists, fire fighters, victims, and other govt officials talking about 9-11 and their experiences?

[SUSkinsFan]

Who killed JFK?Lee Harvey Oswald

[Mad Mike]

But a plane is much denser than people no??? So how come no one can Identify the plane but they could Identify all the bodies??

Do you have a website that can explain that to me?

The plane WAS identified. You just chose not to believe that. You trust an idiot on YouBoob.


http://www.aerospaceweb.org/


Aerospaceweb.org is a non-profit site operated by engineers and scientists in the aerospace field. The goal of this site is to provide educational information on a variety of subjects ranging from aviation to space travel to aerospace technology. Our primary areas of expertise include aerodynamics, propulsion systems, vehicle design, engineering career information, and aerospace history.

Maybe you know more than these people but I doubt it. :rolleyes:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/q0265.shtml

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/pentagon-engine3.jpg


This item appears to be part of the casing of the combustion section. This portion of a jet engine is located aft of the compressors, and it is here that the high pressure air is mixed with fuel and ignited. The circumference of this circular casing contains several holes through which fuel injectors spray the jet fuel needed for combustion. The number, size, and shape of these nozzle holes is generally unique to a particular engine type and can be used to identify the engine model it comes from. Based on the curvature of the debris, the piece shown here appears to be about half of the total combustor case. We can count six nozzle ports along its circumference from the region nearest the floor around to the top, which represents about one-third of the total case. We can also see six screw holes along the circumference of each nozzle port that are used to attach the fuel injectors.

The best photos we have found illustrating the design of this part on the RB211-535 series engine come from the Boeing 757 maintenance manual. A diagram from this manual shown below illustrates components of the RB211-535 high pressure system and its location relative to the rest of the engine.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/rb211-535_3.jpg


Here's a tip. Do some REAL research, then get back to me. And BTW... Smoking a doob while watching YouTube videos is NOT research. :doh:

[Mad Mike]

Yeah, I will have to take the word of my dad and his friends, who were firefighters there at the pentagon all day, over you, in Arizona, knowing (not much at that) only what you read.

You are assuming he reads. :laugh:

[zoony]

Here's a tip. Do some REAL research, then get back to me. And BTW... Smoking a doob while watching YouTube videos is NOT research. :doh:



:laugh: :laugh:

This entire thing centers around people who can't handle their weed.

.....

[philal0102]

You are assuming he reads. :laugh:

Now, Mad Mike, is that supposed to be an isult?

If you're trying to question my intelligence, please don't.

I graduated with top honors from The Las Vegas Academy of International Studies and Performing Arts. I majored in Orchestra as the top violinist in the whole school.

As for reading, I love poetry. I love Edgar Allen Poe, with a little Yeats on the side. I love novels too. I'm in the middle of "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett. It's a very good book. I do recomend you to pick it up. I also love autobiographies... I just got done reading Clapton's. He had a very interesting life. It's a good read.

I can understand your post though. Most of America today gets their information from t.v. and never attempt to pick up a newspaper, or a novel, or any form of reading. As for me.... I read.... alot. What about you Mad Mike?

[Predicto]

so u want me to believe this over the other video, which included scientists, fire fighters, victims, and other govt officials talking about 9-11 and their experiences?

Don't rely on a heavily edited video for goodness sake. A video maker can make you believe that Hobbits are real and zombies walk the earth.

Go read. Be as sceptical about the conspiracy theories as you are about the government. The information is out there, and it isn't hard to understand.

[SUSkinsFan]

A video maker can make you believe that Hobbits are realSo Peter Jackson lied to me? Dammit......

[Predicto]

So Peter Jackson lied to me? Dammit......

Well, not completely. Liv Tyler really is hot.

But she doesn't have pointy ears.

[vegeta613]

Here's a tip. Do some REAL research, then get back to me. And BTW... Smoking a doob while watching YouTube videos is NOT research. :doh:

Let me guess posting links from that site is defined real research by you

I can do that too

http://911review.org/Wiki/PentagonPlaneRotor.shtml

Yay!!!! real research

http://www.911review.org/images/photorotor.jpg

There is one photograph of the debris, from september 11 plane debris rotor engineFEMA 1 that may be useful. A rotor (high pressure stage) coming from an jet engine can be seen in left-hand side photo above . On the top left of the image, what seems to be the housing of this engine. On the right, the leg of somebody working on the site gives approximately the scale, of less than a meter in diameter.

Jean-Pierre Desmoulins september 11 plane debris rotor engine examines this photograph carefully, and notes that:

* this is a high pressure rotor element of a jet engine;
* the diameter of the housing is not much bigger than the diameter of this rotor,
* most of the witnesses heard a sound that they describe as the sound of a military aircraft (highly pitched and strident), not the sound of an airliner.

He concludes:

* this piece and the streamlining behind don't come from the engine of an airliner, which has low pressure fans of much larger size than the high pressure rotors, so that the streamlines are much larger than the diameters of the high pressure rotors.
* the engines of this plane had no low pressure fans: they are military engines, for which noise is not a problem.


http://www.911review.org/images/1.jpg http://www.911review.org/images/4.jpghttp://www.911review.org/images/4.jpg


At the right above, we show the engine from a ######### Britannia Airways Boeing 757 that crashed 14 September 1999 at Gerona, Spain. This aircraft (G-BYAG) had the same engine model as Flight 77 ( ######### N644AA) - Rolls Royce RB211-535E4. Not only is the diameter of the Rolls Royce engine is much larger, the rotor configuration is totally different.

This debris photograph of the engine rotor, if the evidence was not planted, is consistent with a small jet aircraft such as the Navy S-3B, the F-15, the F-16 or the F-18; definitely not from a Boeing 757-223. One witness that reported seeing ######### a 8-10 seat passenger plane, others reported a small rear-engined jet, which would be consistent with the Navy T-39 Sabreliner.

This isn't the only engine from 9/11 that's too small: see our page WTC Plane Engine.

[philal0102]

Well, not completely. Liv Tyler really is hot.

But she doesn't have pointy ears.

She does have a big mouth though... Takes after her dad.

[Baculus]

The entire Pentagon issue could easily be resolved with release of any footage, other then the very vague footage that was released a few years ago.

Also, concerning the Pentagon attack, I don't think a lot of the concerns are outlandish, at first glance. After all, plane wrecks do leave a lot of pieces strewn about, and how many of us, when reading the official theories (which describes the plane "shredding" and "compressing" into the Pentagon) felt that seemed like the best explanation? Especially when you see the photographs and the lack of wreckage, except for some sections such as the engine and landing gear.

It isn't a wonder why folks have come up with alternate conclusions. Everyone does not want to trust the government or their findings; mistrust of government is as American as apple-pie, for good or bad.

I don't know about you, but, after examining the Pentagon attack pictures, my first reaction wasn't "Of course! A plane hit that structure!" I honestly thought it looked more like a missile strike then anything else. Especially with the rather confusing events that took place the morning of 9-11 (and with rumors of the FAA and Congress being attacked, in addition to the WTC and the Pentagon).

Also, though ground witness on the ground are important key, some of the witness had description that was dubious, such as seeing the faces of the plane's passengers, the plane suddenly banking into the Pentagon, etc. All, of course, impossible at 400 MPH, which was the plane's speed.

Does that add up to proof of conspiracy? Probably not, but it is easy to jump to conclusions, especially when the attack could be verified with raw footage.

If we can match the serial numbers on each part with the crashed plane, and we have the footage, problem solve, and that will quiet down any conspiracy accusations. Other then that, it is a matter of faith in the investigatory process and the government's statements.

[Kosher Ham]

Lee Harvey Oswald

Are you sure ? Or is that what you are led to believe ?

What about Hoffa ?

[Baculus]

What makes you think a thorough investigation was not performed? Because you did not see it on CNN? Why give the media the opportunity to expose all of our weaknesses? For crying out loud who was the guy on CNN that was in Baghdad while it was being bombed giving out all the intelligence Saddam needed to defend on national TV???

I will just take your answer as, "I don't know why," to my question of the reasoning behind the Bush administration's attempt to block the creation and funding of the 9-11 Commission.

[TMK9973]

I graduated with top honors from The Las Vegas Academy of International Studies and Performing Arts. I majored in Orchestra ...

Well -Clearly that makes you much more quilified then say actual experts in their field....

[vegeta613]

The entire Pentagon issue could easily be resolved with release of any footage, other then the very vague footage that was released a few years ago.



This is one of the biggest reasons I started questioning the attacks in the first place

There are more camera's around the pentagon than any other building on this known planet and yet the only video they put out is 5 frames of something we can't even see??

Not to mention that the FBI took film from the surrounding buildings cameras that caught the impact within a few minutes of the attack

When people ask to see the film they hold it back for the sake of "National Security"

If there is nothing to hide then why don't they just show us the damn video??

[Mickalino]

Why do threads like these never get merged, but all the other ones do ? :laugh:

[Predicto]

Let me guess posting links from that site is defined real research by you

I can do that too

http://911review.org blah blah



Who the heck is Jean-Pierre Desmoulins and why should I listen to him?

Will you read this short essay? It's by a 9/11 conspiracy guy who thinks that the whole "no plane at the Pentagon" thing was invented by the government to discredit the 9/11 truthers themselves (because it is such a stupid and easily refuted argument).

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pentagontrap.html

I don't agree with him about who came up with this whacky idea or why, but I do agree that it sure is whacky.

[philal0102]

Well -Clearly that makes you much more quilified then say actual experts in their field....

See... I never said anything about being more qualified than anyone... Did you read what I wrote?

He questioned, in my eyes, my intelligence... I simply wrote how, I DO read, and some background information about me. Go back and read my post.

[Predicto]

This is one of the biggest reasons I started questioning the attacks in the first place

There are more camera's around the pentagon than any other building on this known planet and yet the only video they put out is 5 frames of something we can't even see??

Not to mention that the FBI took film from the surrounding buildings cameras that caught the impact within a few minutes of the attack

When people ask to see the film they hold it back for the sake of "National Security"

If there is nothing to hide then why don't they just show us the damn video??

Why is everyone assuming that there was a video camera just staring at the field outside this section of the Pentagon, day and night. There may be one now, but why do you assume there is any footage from 9/11?

[Predicto]

Now, Mad Mike, is that supposed to be an isult?

If you're trying to question my intelligence, please don't.

I graduated with top honors from The Las Vegas Academy of International Studies and Performing Arts. I majored in Orchestra as the top violinist in the whole school.

As for reading, I love poetry. I love Edgar Allen Poe, with a little Yeats on the side. I love novels too. I'm in the middle of "The Pillars of the Earth" by Ken Follett. It's a very good book. I do recomend you to pick it up. I also love autobiographies... I just got done reading Clapton's. He had a very interesting life. It's a good read.

I can understand your post though. Most of America today gets their information from t.v. and never attempt to pick up a newspaper, or a novel, or any form of reading. As for me.... I read.... alot. What about you Mad Mike?

Dude, are you really comparing your academic/intellectual credentials with strangers on the internet?

[Mad Mike]

Let me guess posting links from that site is defined real research by you

I can do that too

http://911review.org/Wiki/PentagonPlaneRotor.shtml

Yay!!!! real research

http://www.911review.org/images/photorotor.jpg

There is one photograph of the debris, from september 11 plane debris rotor engineFEMA 1 that may be useful. A rotor (high pressure stage) coming from an jet engine can be seen in left-hand side photo above . On the top left of the image, what seems to be the housing of this engine. On the right, the leg of somebody working on the site gives approximately the scale, of less than a meter in diameter.

Jean-Pierre Desmoulins september 11 plane debris rotor engine examines this photograph carefully, and notes that:

* this is a high pressure rotor element of a jet engine;
* the diameter of the housing is not much bigger than the diameter of this rotor,
* most of the witnesses heard a sound that they describe as the sound of a military aircraft (highly pitched and strident), not the sound of an airliner.

He concludes:

* this piece and the streamlining behind don't come from the engine of an airliner, which has low pressure fans of much larger size than the high pressure rotors, so that the streamlines are much larger than the diameters of the high pressure rotors.
* the engines of this plane had no low pressure fans: they are military engines, for which noise is not a problem.


http://www.911review.org/images/1.jpg http://www.911review.org/images/4.jpghttp://www.911review.org/images/4.jpg


At the right above, we show the engine from a ######### Britannia Airways Boeing 757 that crashed 14 September 1999 at Gerona, Spain. This aircraft (G-BYAG) had the same engine model as Flight 77 ( ######### N644AA) - Rolls Royce RB211-535E4. Not only is the diameter of the Rolls Royce engine is much larger, the rotor configuration is totally different.

This debris photograph of the engine rotor, if the evidence was not planted, is consistent with a small jet aircraft such as the Navy S-3B, the F-15, the F-16 or the F-18; definitely not from a Boeing 757-223. One witness that reported seeing ######### a 8-10 seat passenger plane, others reported a small rear-engined jet, which would be consistent with the Navy T-39 Sabreliner.

This isn't the only engine from 9/11 that's too small: see our page WTC Plane Engine.

The second picture that you posted is of a plane someone tried to land safely. It is still generally whole. The portion seen in the wreckage at the pentagon is the hub BEHIND and inside all of those fan blades in your picture. That's what happens when a plane full of fuel is flown into a fortress with the intend of destruction. If you cant figure out the difference between the two, you and Jean-Pierre Desmoulins are both morons. :rolleyes:

A cutaway of the engine. Note the small diameter of the fan hubs.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/conspiracy/pentagon/rb211-535_2.jpg

[philal0102]

Dude, are you really comparing your academic/intellectual credentials with strangers on the internet?

Again, go back and read the post.... I wasn't comparing myself to anyone. I wrote things that contradicted Mad Mikes assumption. Not once did I compare myself to him... I asked him if he read, yes, but never did I say anything along the lines of comparison.

[vegeta613]

Why is everyone assuming that there was a video camera just staring at the field outside this section of the Pentagon, day and night. There may be one now, but why do you assume there is any footage from 9/11?


Why do I assume there are video camera's watching the symbol of defense for the United State of America??

I don't know why don't you tell me

[Baculus]

Mad Mike,

On this page, since I disagreed about your statements regarding the invasion of Iraq, I formulated a few pointed questions towards some of your statements. You can find them here:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235784&page=10&pp=15

I know you are in deep discussion about the Pentagon attack, but I'd like to hear your opinions, regarding Iraq, terrorism, and the logical basis for attacking that nation.

[TMK9973]

See... I never said anything about being more qualified than anyone... Did you read what I wrote?

He questioned, in my eyes, my intelligence... I simply wrote how, I DO read, and some background information about me. Go back and read my post.

Well - Lets review

You have posted theories that are widely discredited
A movie that is a joke
and claim that you are intelligent because you read and gradutated from a preforming arts school....


I'm questioning your intellegence.... It is clear that you are a guillible person who simply wants to reduce complex and troubling events to simple answers such as "The Big Bad Secert Rich people" are behind everything....

[Dance04]

If you cant figure out the difference between the two, you and Jean-Pierre Desmoulins are both morons. :rolleyes:

Im tired of your name calling.

http://physics911.net/images/exit3.jpeg

if you beleive that the very delicate tip of the plane crushed through those 3 rings, then your a moron :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Baculus]

Why is everyone assuming that there was a video camera just staring at the field outside this section of the Pentagon, day and night. There may be one now, but why do you assume there is any footage from 9/11?

Because, at most facilities, there are security cameras that record events, day and night. This is in addition to the cameras at the nearby gas station and hotel that recorded the attack, but whose footage was seized and never released.

It happened in 2001 - even then, video and security cameras were quite common.

[Mad Mike]

See... I never said anything about being more qualified than anyone... Did you read what I wrote?

He questioned, in my eyes, my intelligence... I simply wrote how, I DO read, and some background information about me. Go back and read my post.

I questioned whether or not you (and on a greater scale, any conspiracy theorists) read. A fair question for people who post links to YouTube as if it were the bible.

[vegeta613]

The second picture that you posted is of a plane someone tried to land safely. It is still generally whole. The portion seen in the wreckage at the pentagon is the hub BEHIND and inside all of those fan blades in your picture. That's what happens when a plane full of fuel is flown into a fortress with the intend of destruction. If you cant figure out the difference between the two, you and Jean-Pierre Desmoulins are both morons. :rolleyes:



Moron?? Name calling ??

You posted a link to a site and so did I

Now you are calling me a moron??

Here is another site you need to read

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/print.asp?ID=1152

Small piece

everal readers wrote to AFP suggesting that the unidentified disc was a piece from the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) mounted in the tail section of a Boeing 757. Honeywell makes the GTCP331-200 APU used on the 757 aircraft. No one suggested, however, that the small disc was a piece from one of the main engines of a 757-200.

AFP contacted Honeywell’s Aerospace division in Phoenix, Ariz., and sent high-resolution photos for their examination. “There’s no way that’s an APU wheel,” an expert at Honeywell told AFP. The expert, who cannot be named, added: “That turbine disc—there’s no way in the world that came out of an APU.”

American Free Press contacted Pratt & Whitney and Rolls Royce, manufacturers of the 757’s turbofan jet engines to try and identify the piece.

“If the aircraft that struck the Pentagon was a Boeing 757-200 owned by American Airlines, then it would have to be a Rolls Royce engine,” Mark Sullivan, spokesman for Pratt & Whitney, told AFP.

John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had previously told AFP: “It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I’m familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.”

The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the military’s unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grumman’s subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999.
A detailed photo of the front fan of a Global Hawk is online at:
http://www.rolls-royce.com/media/gallery/defence/lrg_ae3007_6.htm


http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/images/picture/Bollyn%20composite2.JPG


Basicly it could have been anything that uses that type of engine

[philal0102]

Well - Lets review

You have posted theories that are widely discredited
A movie that is a joke
and claim that you are intelligent because you read and gradutated from a preforming arts school....


I'm questioning your intellegence.... It is clear that you are a guillible person who simply wants to reduce complex and troubling events to simple answers such as "The Big Bad Secert Rich people" are behind everything....

Would I like to reduse the troubling events? No.
Would I like real answers? Yes.

Am I gullible because I have an open mind, and I don't just shut the door on opinions, or "conspiracies". If that's your definition of gullible... Then yes.

Do I think that the extremely wealthy people in this nation have a hand in most things that deal with the government? Yes. Does this mean I'm dumb, or gullible? I don't think so.

[philal0102]

Well - Lets review

You have posted theories that are widely discredited
A movie that is a joke
and claim that you are intelligent because you read and gradutated from a preforming arts school....


I'm questioning your intellegence.... It is clear that you are a guillible person who simply wants to reduce complex and troubling events to simple answers such as "The Big Bad Secert Rich people" are behind everything....

Would I like to reduse the troubling events? No.
Would I like real answers? Yes.

Am I gullible because I have an open mind, and I don't just shut the door on opinions, or "conspiracies". If that's your definition of gullible... Then yes.

Do I think that the extremely wealthy people in this nation have a hand in most things that deal with the government, and the media that you or I watch? Yes. Does this mean I'm dumb, or gullible? I don't think so.

[Mad Mike]

Im tired of your name calling.

http://physics911.net/images/exit3.jpeg

if you beleive that the very delicate tip of the plane crushed through those 3 rings, then your a moron :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Then its a good thing I don't believe that. In fact, the only person claiming that the "very delicate tip of the plane" made that unidentified burn mark... is you. :laugh:

[Baculus]

For some folks on this thread, name calling and insultive posting it is really starting to become your posting method, and to be frank, it makes you look like an ass.

Having a bit of decorum is a positive thing.

[Predicto]

Because, at most facilities, there are security cameras that record events, day and night.


No, there aren't. There are cameras at doors, for example, that show who is going in and out, and in elevators, but there are no cameras just recording the entire outside wall of most facilities. I work in the California Supreme Court. We have high security. Metal detectors and cameras at the doorways, electronic pass cards, etc. But there are no cameras just trained on the front wall of the building waiting for a plane to crash into the building, at least not as far as I can tell. Same thing for San Francisco City Hall, across the street.

The Pentagon may well have installed such broad cameras now, for all I know, but I do not think we can assume they had them pre 9/11.




This is in addition to the cameras at the nearby gas station and hotel that recorded the attack, but whose footage was seized and never released.



Those were released. You can see them on the wiki page. Are there others that anyone is aware of (rather than just speculating that they MUST exist)?

[Mad Mike]

Mad Mike,

On this page, since I disagreed about your statements regarding the invasion of Iraq, I formulated a few pointed questions towards some of your statements. You can find them here:

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235784&page=10&pp=15

I know you are in deep discussion about the Pentagon attack, but I'd like to hear your opinions, regarding Iraq, terrorism, and the logical basis for attacking that nation.

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78073&highlight=Iraq

[Predicto]

For some folks on this thread, name calling and insultive posting it is really starting to become your posting method, and to be frank, it makes you look like an ass.

Having a bit of decorum is a positive thing.

It is just frustration, Baculus.

If you were trying to explain to someone that the world is round, and they just didn't want to believe you or think logically about it at all, you would get frustrated.

If you then had the 23rd new thread claiming the world is flat, repeating the same old stuff, you would get VERY frustrated.

That is where I am now.

[Mad Mike]

No, there aren't. There are cameras at doors, for example, that show who is going in and out, and in elevators, but there are no cameras just recording the entire outside wall of most facilities. I work in the California Supreme Court. We have high security. Metal detectors and cameras at the doorways, electronic pass cards, etc. But there are no cameras just trained on the front wall of the building waiting for a plane to crash into the building, at least not as far as I can tell. Same thing for San Francisco City Hall, across the street.

The Pentagon may well have installed such broad cameras now, for all I know, but I do not think we can assume they had them pre 9/11.



Those were released. You can see them on the wiki page. Are there others that anyone is aware of (rather than just speculating that they MUST exist)?

I just want to add that security cameras like ones that did capture bits of the attack on the pentagon operate at a frame rate of about 1 frame per second so that one tape can record and entire day. In order to capture normal motion 30 frames per second are needed. in order to capture his speed motion, up to thousands of frames per second are used in special cameras. the idea that one of the cameras around the pentagon should have captured an image of the plane is, well.... crazy.

[vegeta613]

Those were released. You can see them on the wiki page. Are there others that anyone is aware of (rather than just speculating that they MUST exist)?


The hotel across the street caught the impact as well and the FBI took that and never released it

[Dance04]

I just want to add that security cameras like ones that did capture bits of the attack on the pentagon operate at a frame rate of about 1 frame per second so that one tape can record and entire day. In order to capture normal motion 30 frames per second are needed. in order to capture his speed motion, up to thousands of frames per second are used in special cameras. the idea that one of the cameras around the pentagon should have captured an image of the plane is, well.... crazy.

this doesnt make any sense. Your telling me, the most guarded place in the states uses cameras that capture at one frame per second?

[Mad Mike]

For some folks on this thread, name calling and insultive posting it is really starting to become your posting method, and to be frank, it makes you look like an ass.

Having a bit of decorum is a positive thing.

You are right. I have no decorum. Moron was over the line.

However if someone insists on making loony statements, I will call him a loon. Not to do so is to give credibility where none should be given and I will not be a part in spreading the insanity of 9/11 conspiracy loons by showing them more respect than they deserve.

[philal0102]

I questioned whether or not you (and on a greater scale, any conspiracy theorists) read. A fair question for people who post links to YouTube as if it were the bible.

A fair question to people who post links to youtube.... great. I have not once posted a link to youtube. That movie... yes... youtube... no.

[Mad Mike]

this doesnt make any sense. Your telling me, the most guarded place in the states uses cameras that capture at one frame per second?

Outside of the building in low security areas? Yes.

[vegeta613]

You are right. I have no decorum. Moron was over the line.

However if someone insists on making loony statements, I will call him a loon. Not to do so is to give credibility where none should be given and I will not be a part in spreading the insanity of 9/11 conspiracy loons by showing them more respect than they deserve.


Since we have a label maybe it's time we give you one

Hmmmmm lets see

One who cast a blind eye to sense and logic to defend the official story at all cost

http://ocw.usu.edu/University_Extension/sheep-and-lambing-management/sheep.jpg

Yep pretty much sums you up

[vegeta613]

this doesnt make any sense. Your telling me, the most guarded place in the states uses cameras that capture at one frame per second?


Things like sense don't compute in this thread obviously

[Dance04]

Outside of the building in low security areas? Yes.

even the cameras in the restaurant I work at are recorded at live speed.

[Predicto]

even the cameras in the restaurant I work at are recorded at live speed.

Do they film the empty wall on the outside of the building?

[Dance04]

Do they film the empty wall on the outside of the building?

yes they do, how did you know????? :rolleyes:

[zoony]

Vote Ron Paul in 2008.

.....

[Reic]

Because they see plane/missile crashes every day.

Yeah, because planes crash into buildings every day in Prince William County and surrounding areas!

But, if it happened every day, yes they would, because that is their job.

There are firefighters on shfit at the helipad every day at the pentagon, the plane hit right above the helipad, so there are a handful of people that had to run their asses off when they saw the plane coming. One of them was a rookie acutally, he was in shock for some while.

[Baculus]

I know these debates can be contentious, for sure, and frustrating, especially with an emotional subject (which is why I try to avoid 9-11 threads, since we have gone over this over and over again, but I always let myself get pulled back in...). It happens to all of us.

[drone007]

to the debunkers out there... i had a pretty heated argument with my roomate about this last semester. :laugh:

he had me sit down and watch an hour long video that we all have seen before, saying all the typical things on why none of the physics add up or make sense, etc.

i'm a mechanical engineering student and i tried to explain to him (political science major, how scary!) my side of things. the problem arises when the mere fact that you believe it WAS a terrorist attack totally convinces them that you're ignorant. there is no arguing with them because they're, quite honestly, not intelligent enough to read the unbiased scientific facts.

it took me about 15 minutes on google to find a FULL PDF COPY of one of the INDEPENDENT reports done on the collapse of the towers and pentagon wall. FULLY CITED for my reading pleasure, 1000+ pages worth.

When you watch a made-for-youtube video with background music, a scary narrator, and quickly flashed math equations like F=ma on the screen,(hahahahahahah) some of us have a little bell go off in our head thinking "maybe these are not the most reputable and unbiased accounts of the situation"

now i dont intend to make it seem like i know all the answers, but there was a guy in the thread asking why we rebutted his stupid video with another stupid website.

go out and read. if its that important to you, read. and don't go out with any preconceived notions. pay special attention to what first hand accounts you get and what secondary sources are used. what are their credentials? what are their past publications? do a real investigation.

otherwise, shut the **** up and listen to the people who actually think for a change.

EDIT: and when i say first hand accounts... i also mean, how much of the interview was omitted? What is the context of the answer in relation to the question? When was the interview conducted and are there words used that are being given a connotative meaning in addition to their denotative meaning?

[Baculus]

http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78073&highlight=Iraq

Heh. That must be your "Mad Mike" FAQ. That thread is from 2004, so it shows how long we have been debating this.

Basically, it still comes down to this: Were the Iraqi-terrorism connections enough reason to invade Iraq? Was that nation an immediate threat? Even with the information in your FAQ, was that enough cause to invade, and worth the price in lives and monies?

I guess that where the debate will continue.

[Baculus]

No, there aren't. There are cameras at doors, for example, that show who is going in and out, and in elevators, but there are no cameras just recording the entire outside wall of most facilities. I work in the California Supreme Court. We have high security. Metal detectors and cameras at the doorways, electronic pass cards, etc. But there are no cameras just trained on the front wall of the building waiting for a plane to crash into the building, at least not as far as I can tell. Same thing for San Francisco City Hall, across the street.

Really? I am surprised. I help setup IP-based security cameras in the properties that I help to manage, and we have cameras at least covering the parking regions in addition to the entrances. This is partially for safety of the residents and also to record any crimes which may be committed. Granted, this is seven years later, and security cameras have become cheaper, especially network based ones.


The Pentagon may well have installed such broad cameras now, for all I know, but I do not think we can assume they had them pre 9/11.

Since it is a secure facility, that would have been my assumption. I could be wrong.


Those were released. You can see them on the wiki page. Are there others that anyone is aware of (rather than just speculating that they MUST exist)?

I have never heard of either of those being released, but just the camera that was from a Pentagon entrance. Which Wiki has this footage?

[drone007]

has there been a positive identification on a missile hitting the pentagon?


there are lots of people that say they saw a plane fly overhead but i have yet to hear someone say i saw a missile...?

[Baculus]

Here is the only Pentagon footage that I can locate, and as far as I know, it is the only footage that has yet to be released. And it is filming the side of the Pentagon.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=12606845

Here is a frame-by-frame analysis.

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/dodvideos.html

Now, this footage doesn't resolve anything. As you can see from these images, there is no plane. Just a sudden explosion, and that is it. That is why further footage is needed to demonstrate the aircraft striking the Pentagon.

[techboy]

A fair question to people who post links to youtube.... great. I have not once posted a link to youtube. That movie... yes... youtube... no.

Ah, yes... "that movie".

I have to admit, your resume is impressive for one who is only 19. You appear to be very well educated, and are extremely well rounded in the areas of literature, music, and culture.

However, I have to wonder... of all the reading you do, how much of it is academic work in the areas of history, archeology, anthropology, astronomy, engineering, finance, economics, politics?

I'm sure we've all had this experience: I read a newspaper article that covers a subject I'm really interested in, and so know more than the average about (say, the Redskins, or gaming, or New Testament history), and I become upset. "That's not the way it really is!" I cry! "That reporter has it all wrong!"

I know this happens to others, because I see it all the time. I think what I (and many) forget, is that when it's a subject I don't know a lot about, there might still be a problem. "If it's in the newspaper, it must be true", I think. Then I go right back to railing the next time I read an article on which I am better informed. :)

The problem is that bad information can be awfully compelling when we aren't knowedgable enough to pick it out. Zeitgeist is no exception here... once I got past the really boring first two minutes, it seemed very well done and compelling.

But here's the thing. I'm not knowledgable enough in the areas of finance, politics, engineering, physics, etc. to pick out the errors in parts 2 and 3 (9/11 and the federal reserve) with any confidence. I teach Physics, but I do not consider myself a physicist. I have, however, spent the last 15 years of my life reading just about everything I could get my hands on regarding New Testament era history, archeology, anthropology, and so on. I do so because I am a Christian, but I make a point to read every reputable scholar I can, regardless of skeptical stripe. Sometimes, this is so I can find information positive to my case from skeptics (who are less likely to be accused of bias). Sometimes, it's just so that I can know what my "opponents" might hit me with in a debate. So, I feel qualified to judge the first third of Zeitgeist and its sources and claims.

The first third of Zeitgeist is utter crap. It is filled with errors that would be laughably obvious to a first year history student. It makes outrageous claims with no basis in reality, and relies on theories discarded by the academic community decades ago (when it relies on academics at all).

Further, when I go through the list of "sources", I find not a single expert in the fields discussed. No historians, no New Testament scholars, no astronomers, nothing. The primary "expert" citedis completely unqualified and probably crazy (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4565618&postcount=106). She seems to actually believe that the Mormons, with the help of the Joos, are attempting to bring about Armaggedon using nuclear weapons smuggled into Australia. Huh?

I guess there's no need to go off track in this thread (we discussed the movie here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=209392) when it first came out), but my assessment of "that movie" is that given that I know how laughably bad and erroneous the part I have knowledge of is, I can't trust the rest of it either.

Now, there is of course the natural inclination of many to dismiss me as merely giving a kneejerk reaction due to the fact that it challenges my faith, but the truth is, Zeitgeist is no challenge. Zeitgeist is a joke, and no credible academic (atheist, agnostic, Christian, etc.) would take its claims seriously.

Skepticism is healthy, but we need to be just as skeptical of alternative sources as we are of the government. Otherwise, we're still "sheeple". We just end up with a different shepherd.

[drone007]

Here is the only Pentagon footage that I can locate, and as far as I know, it is the only footage that has yet to be released. And it is filming the side of the Pentagon.

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=12606845

Here is a frame-by-frame analysis.

http://911research.wtc7.net/pentagon/evidence/videos/dodvideos.html

Now, this footage doesn't resolve anything. As you can see from these images, there is no plane. Just a sudden explosion, and that is it. That is why further footage is needed to demonstrate the aircraft striking the Pentagon.


awesome. so there is no plane and no missile seen in this footage because of the slow frame rate and the extremely fast entry speed of either a plane or missile. weird how they use this video as an end-all-be-all for the missile theory.

using logical theory, what you're saying is: lack of visual evidence of anything --> no evidence for a plane --> proof a missile impact occured

[Baculus]

has there been a positive identification on a missile hitting the pentagon?

there are lots of people that say they saw a plane fly overhead but i have yet to hear someone say i saw a missile...?

Well, the theory goes that, if a missile struck the Pentagon, that it was a mock-up of an aircraft. Some of the witnesses that have been quoted described a smaller plane and not a jetliner. And the problem with some witnesses is that they describe bits of detail or actions that is probably not accurate for the few seconds that they saw the aircraft.

This is the general, conventional "missile theory."

Keep in mind that the aircraft was estimated to have been flying at 400 mph, so once a person looks up, it is gone. That doesn't discount anyone saying they saw an airliner, but, for example, they are not going to be able to see passengers in the windows or any fine details on the aircraft. The plane was travelling too fast and sudden for most people to have really catch a good glimpse.

If witnesses were able to see some of the details which have been claimed, then the 757 was flying at a much slower speed.

[drone007]

Well, the theory goes that, if a missile struck the Pentagon, that it was a mock-up of an aircraft. Some of the witnesses that have been quoted described a smaller plane and not a jetliner. And the problem with some witnesses is that they describe bits of detail or actions that is probably not accurate for the few seconds that they saw the aircraft.

This is the general, conventional "missile theory."

Keep in mind that the aircraft was estimated to have been flying at 400 mph, so once a person looks up, it is gone. That doesn't discount anyone saying they saw an airliner, but, for example, they are not going to be able to see passengers in the windows or any fine details on the aircraft. The plane was travelling too fast and sudden for most people to have really catch a good glimpse.

If witnesses were able to see some of the details which have been claimed, then the 757 was flying at a much slower speed.


and do you think that air traffic controllers are part of the conspiracy as well?

and what about the families of the people who died in that pentagon plane? are they in on it too?

[Baculus]

awesome. so there is no plane and no missile seen in this footage because of the slow frame rate and the extremely fast entry speed of either a plane or missile. weird how they use this video as an end-all-be-all for the missile theory.

Yes, this really doesn't prove or disprove, which...well, doesn't prove anything!


using logical theory, what you're saying is: lack of visual evidence of anything --> no evidence for a plane --> proof a missile impact occured

Personally, I have put on own beliefs on standby. Since there is still footage out there, I just don't see why it is released.

Perhaps they just don't feel it is necessary if the on-site and FBI investigation is found to be adequate.

[Baculus]

and do you think that air traffic controllers are part of the conspiracy as well?

and what about the families of the people who died in that pentagon plane? are they in on it too?

I am not going to get into that line. You asked questions about the missile theory. I have answered since I have researched it this topic.

Previously, I have stated that a missile striking the Pentagon, as opposed to a 757, isn't needed for my own personal questions about the events of 9-11.

[drone007]

I am not going to get into that line. You asked questions about the missile theory. I have answered since I have researched it this topic.

Previously, I have stated that a missile striking the Pentagon, as opposed to a 757, isn't needed for my own personal questions about the events of 9-11.

fair enough. do you have any insight on those answers if you were to project yourself behind the eyes of someone who might be endorsing the missile theory?

honestly, i dont see why people make it so complex as to replace a huge plane with a small one planted with explosives. that adds much more complexity in regards to the human aspect of upholding a conspiracy. now you've got traffic controllers, fake family mourners, etc.

call me crazy i guess...

[Skins24]

It doesn't make sense anyway.
4 planes were hijacked. Why would you crash 3, and make the other one disappear into thin air with people watching it?
Also missiles don't just appear out of no where. There are millions of people in the DC metro area, and not one of them noticed a missile of that size being launched?

[Baculus]

fair enough. do you have any insight on those answers if you were to project yourself behind the eyes of someone who might be endorsing the missile theory?

Sure.

Regarding the plane/missile switch, the 757 disappeared from radar for a period of time, then suddenly re-appeared. That is when any switch could have happened.

Also, the actual flight course of the plane, which has been described as follows, has been questioned:

"Radar shows Flight 77 did a downward spiral, turning almost a complete circle and dropping the last 7,000 feet in two-and-a-half minutes. The steep turn was so smooth, the sources say, it's clear there was no fight for control going on. And the complex maneuver suggests the hijackers had better flying skills than many investigators first believed. The jetliner disappeared from radar at 9:37 and less than a minute later it clipped the tops of street lights and plowed into the Pentagon at 460 mph."


honestly, i dont see why people make it so complex as to replace a huge plane with a small one planted with explosives. that adds much more complexity in regards to the human aspect of upholding a conspiracy. now you've got traffic controllers, fake family mourners, etc.
call me crazy i guess...

Yeah, that has been my thinking. When I look the Pentagon theories, there are viable questions, regarding lack of wreckage (though, as mentioned, there is some identifiable debris), footage, etc. But, as you mentioned, why use a missile if a plane could be used?

Also, remember that Rumsfeld said, originally, that a missile had struck the Pentagon. And, really, who was to say attackers or terrorists didn't have a missile? That was originally my thinking.

The only reason why I would think a missile would be used was due to the complexity of the attack. That, simply put, it's very difficult to actually fly a large plane into a target, even one as large as the Pentagon.

Other then that, as you mentioned, pulling a "757/missile" switch-a-roo would add to the complexity of the attack, and really, wouldn't be necessary to accomplish the task. Even a near miss, with a wrecked 757 all over the beltway, would cause a lot of chaos.

[philal0102]

Ah, yes... "that movie".

.

All I'm trying to do is to think... I grew up a Christian, you should see how my mom reacted when I first told her my ideas, or that I was even questioning anything in regards to Jesus, or Christianity.

I just don't want to close to door on any possible answers, ideas, or "conspiracies". Most people have closed minds, I don't.

[Baculus]

It doesn't make sense anyway.
4 planes were hijacked. Why would you crash 3, and make the other one disappear into thin air with people watching it?
Also missiles don't just appear out of no where. There are millions of people in the DC metro area, and not one of them noticed a missile of that size being launched?

Well, yeah, that is a problem with the missile theory. If you are going to attack with planes, why change tactics?

That being said, many missiles are long range and stand-off weapons. It wouldn't have to be launched from the immediate area of D.C. Especially if the missile didn't appear like a missile, a lot of people would assume it is an aircraft.

[techboy]

All I'm trying to do is to think... I grew up a Christian, you should see how my mom reacted when I first told her my ideas, or that I was even questioning anything in regards to Jesus, or Christianity.

I just don't want to close to door on any possible answers, ideas, or "conspiracies". Most people have closed minds, I don't.

Don't keep your mind so open that your brain falls out. ;)

Seriously, I'm not suggesting that you accept or reject anything out of hand, no matter who is telling you something.

It is not, however, closed minded to reject a film like Zeitgeist. It's riddled with errors. Its "experts" are not. It is a joke.

There's nothing noble or laudable about choosing to believe something so provably false. Try reading a few scholars in the fields of New Testament history, ancient astronomy, anthropology.

Here... I'll start you off. I quote such experts in my posts here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4100085&postcount=44), here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4775255&postcount=176), here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4775354&postcount=186), here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4779039&postcount=206), here (http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4779713&postcount=216).

I'm definitely biased, but notice that the people I'm quoting are actually experts in their field, and people like Bart Ehrman (an agnostic who has argued against the historicity of the Ressurection of Jesus in debates) and John Dominic Crossan (who once theorized that Jesus's tomb was empty because the corpse was eaten by wild dogs). There are quotes by astronomers, historians, archeologists, and so on. And, it's not just the people I'm quoting. They also note that the academic community as a whole, virtually without exception, hold to the same views.

Zeitgeist is a joke, and the reason it doesn't cite any scholars is that it can't. Be open-minded about something that might actually be true.

[skinfan13]

:rolleyes: go away "truthers"


as Stan put it, "yes, 1/4 of America IS retarded"

[btfoom]

THIS: (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2001/trade.center/victims/AA77.victims.html)) is why I get so upset when people blindly go to a few web-sites and decide that the US government launched a missile into the Pentagon. Read this, EVERY name, and tell me it was a f^&%*n missile (and yes, close friends of mine knew someone on that plane and several in the Pentagon). Real people, real families, really DEAD.


Also, for all you rocket scientists out there who will believe any web-site w/o knowing anything about the author, but choose to disbelieve unbiased experts:

If 9-11 was such an 'inside job', where our government literally killed thousands of people, did billions of $$$ of damage, and kept it quiet until they pulled it off - Why does the govt let the folks who discovered the 'TRUTH' reveal it to the whole world??? Certainly, the people with this type of accumen and lack of morals would not hesitate to kill a few more folks and at least shut down their web-sites. Please, please, please answer that question (after you read below).

AMERICAN AIRLINES FLIGHT 77

American Airlines Flight 77, from Washington to Los Angeles, crashed into the Pentagon with 64 people aboard.






CREW



Charles Burlingame of Herndon, Virginia, was the plane's captain. He is survived by a wife, a daughter and a grandson. He had more than 20 years of experience flying with American Airlines and was a former U.S. Navy pilot.

David Charlebois, who lived in Washington's Dupont Circle neighborhood, was the first officer on the flight. "He was handsome and happy and very centered," his neighbor Travis White, told The Washington Post. "His life was the kind of life I wanted to have some day."

Michele Heidenberger of Chevy Chase, Maryland, was a flight attendant for 30 years. She left behind a husband, a pilot, and a daughter and son.

Flight attendant Jennifer Lewis, 38, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the wife of flight attendant Kenneth Lewis.

Flight attendant Kenneth Lewis, 49, of Culpeper, Virginia, was the husband of flight attendant Jennifer Lewis.

Renee May, 39, of Baltimore, Maryland, was a flight attendant.







PASSENGERS



Paul Ambrose, 32, of Washington, was a physician who worked with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services and the surgeon general to address racial and ethnic disparities in health. A 1995 graduate of Marshall University School of Medicine, Ambrose last year was named the Luther Terry Fellow of the Association of Teachers of Preventative Medicine.

Yeneneh Betru, 35, was from Burbank, California.

M.J. Booth

Bernard Brown, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Suzanne Calley, 42, of San Martin, California, was an employee of Cisco Systems Inc.

William Caswell

Sarah Clark, 65, of Columbia, Maryland, was a sixth-grade teacher at Backus Middle School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Asia Cottom, 11, was a student at Backus Middle School in Washington. Asia was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

James Debeuneure, 58, of Upper Marlboro, Maryland, was a fifth-grade teacher at Ketcham Elementary School in Washington. He was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Rodney Dickens, 11, was a student at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. He was embarking on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Eddie Dillard

Charles Droz

Barbara Edwards, 58, of Las Vegas, Nevada, was a teacher at Palo Verde High School in Las Vegas.

Charles S. Falkenberg, 45, of University Park, Maryland, was the director of research at ECOlogic Corp., a software engineering firm. He worked on data systems for NASA and also developed data systems for the study of global and regional environmental issues. Falkenburg was traveling with his wife, Leslie Whittingham, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3.

Zoe Falkenberg, 8, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Dana Falkenberg, 3, of University Park, Maryland, was the daughter of Charles Falkenberg and Leslie Whittingham.

Joe Ferguson was the director of the National Geographic Society's geography education outreach program in Washington. He was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. A Mississippi native, he joined the society in 1987. "Joe Feguson's final hours at the Geographic reveal the depth of his commitment to one of the things he really loved," said John Fahey Jr., the society's president. "Joe was here at the office until late Monday evening preparing for this trip. It was his goal to make this trip perfect in every way."

Wilson "Bud" Flagg of Millwood, Virginia, was a retired Navy admiral and retired American Airlines pilot.

Dee Flagg

Richard Gabriel

Ian Gray, 55, of Washington was the president of a health-care consulting firm.

Stanley Hall, 68, was from Rancho Palos Verdes, California.

Bryan Jack, 48, of Alexandria, Virginia, was a senior executive at the Defense Department.

Steven D. "Jake" Jacoby, 43, of Alexandria, Virginia, was the chief operating officer of Metrocall Inc., a wireless data and messaging company.

Ann Judge, 49, of Virginia was the travel office manager for the National Geographic Society. She was accompanying a group of students and teachers on an educational trip to the Channel Islands in California. Society President John Fahey Jr. said one of his fondest memories of Judge is a voice mail she and a colleague once left him while they were rafting the Monkey River in Belize. "This was quintessential Ann -- living life to the fullest and wanting to share it with others," he said.

Chandler Keller, 29, was a Boeing propulsion engineer from El Segundo, California.

Yvonne Kennedy

Norma Khan, 45, from Reston, Virginia was a nonprofit organization manager.

Karen A. Kincaid, 40, was a lawyer with the Washington firm of Wiley Rein & Fielding. She joined the firm in 1993 and was part of the its telecommunications practice. She was married to Peter Batacan.

Norma Langsteuerle

Dong Lee

Dora Menchaca, 45, of Santa Monica, California, was the associate director of clinical research for a biotech firm.

Christopher Newton, 38, of Anaheim, California, was president and chief executive officer of Work-Life Benefits, a consultation and referral service. He was married and had two children. Newton was on his way back to Orange County to retrieve his family's yellow Labrador, who had been left behind until they could settle into their new home in Arlington, Virginia.

Barbara Olson, 45, was a conservative commentator who often appeared on CNN and was married to U.S. Solicitor General Theodore Olson. She twice called her husband as the plane was being hijacked and described some details, including that the attackers were armed with knives. She had planned to take a different flight, but she changed it at the last minute so that she could be with her husband on his birthday. She worked as an investigator for the House Government Reform Committee in the mid-1990s and later worked on the staff of Senate Minority Whip Don Nickles.

Ruben Ornedo, 39, of Los Angeles, California, was a Boeing propulsion engineer.

Robert Penniger, 63, of Poway, California, was an electrical engineer with BAE Systems.

Lisa Raines, 42, was senior vice president for government relations at the Washington office of Genzyme, a biotechnology firm. She was from Great Falls, Virginia, and was married to Stephen Push. She worked with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration on developing a new policy governing cellular therapies, announced in 1997. She also worked on other major health-care legislation.

Todd Reuben, 40, of Potomac, Maryland, was a tax and business lawyer.

John Sammartino

Diane Simmons

George Simmons

Mari-Rae Sopper of Santa Barbara, California, was a women's gymnastics coach at the University of California at Santa Barbara. She had just gotten the post August 31 and was making the trip to California to start work.

Bob Speisman, 47, was from Irvington, New York.

Hilda Taylor was a sixth-grade teacher at Leckie Elementary School in Washington. She was accompanying a student on an educational trip to the Channel Islands National Marine Sanctuary near Santa Barbara, California, as part of a program funded by the National Geographic Society.

Leonard Taylor was from Reston, Virginia.

Leslie A. Whittington, 45, was from University Park, Maryland. The professor of public policy at Georgetown University in Washington was traveling with her husband, Charles Falkenberg, 45, and their two daughters, Zoe, 8, and Dana, 3. They were traveling to Los Angeles to catch a connection to Australia. Whittington had been named a visiting fellow at Australian National University in Canberra.

John Yamnicky, 71, was from Waldorf, Maryland.

Vicki Yancey

Shuyin Yang

Yuguag Zheng

[Teller]

Anyone else think the Redskins should change their racist nickname? :laugh:

[Ken]

People often forget that the WTC was attacked before, during Clinton's presidency. Difference was, 9/11 was more successful (from a terrorist's perspective). It's been proven over time that al Qaeda learns from their mistakes, and they clearly made mistakes during their first WTC attack.

But what if their first attack had been more successful, and one or both of the towers had been destroyed? Would we be having these same conspiracy discussions?

Those who are critical of the Bush administration for not acting on available intelligence to prevent 9/11, are you similarly critical of the Clinton administration for not acting on intelligence to prevent the first WTC attack, or the attack on the USS Cole? Because after all, Clinton essentially lucked-out that the first WTC didn't bring more damage and loss of life than it did.

A few other questions. Who flew the planes into the WTC, and what ever happened to the men believed to have been the hijackers, if they didn't do it?

And why did the hijackers send videotapes to al-Jazeera prior to their death discussing their impending "martyrdom" if they weren't involved? And why did bin Laden claim responsibility for 9/11 in a 2004 video?

If I were bin Laden, and I could prove that 9/11 was an inside job and not an al Qaeda project, this would be perhaps the most damaging single event in our nation's history. He could literally destroy us and our government by uncovering such information. Yet he instead claimed responsibility?

What about other al Qaeda attacks around the world--Madrid, London, Bali, etc.--are they not responsible for those as well, despite their claims of responsibility? Are they just a bunch of kooks who keep claiming responsibility for doing a bunch of horrible things that they aren't actually responsible for?
Funny you should mention 1993 WTC attack....THAT one they screwed up. 8 years later they got it right...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8931450018968737845&q=1993+wtc&total=233&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0


Oh, and just for the record, I'm similarly critical of anyone in government who is on the take....

[Ken]

I can only wonder at the human mind that would believe the following scenario to be true ...

(1) 9/11 was entirely the work of the US government.
(2) The WTC attacks were staged in order to justify an invasion of Iraq to disarm Saddam of WMDs
(3) Having staged the 9/11 attacks and successfully invaded Iraq, they were unable to 'find' a single WMD.
Me too...

That is lunacy. A bunch of half truths right there...

[Ken]

Here's the thing and no one has answered me:

1) At what point do you look at the previous WTC attack, the previous terrorist incidents, both 'rogue' and organized, the USS COle, Khobar Towers, and Ahmad Shah Masood's assassination and say, "this is the end of a pattern. Not something incredibly new. They planned to do something like this before?"
I do look at all previous terrorist attacks and the great majority of them are black ops. You should look into the topic, you may be surprised what you learn.


2) Do any of you conspiracy idiots know anything about Operation Bojinka and Ramzi Yousef (and his plans for the use of planes?)
have you ever seen the pilot episode of "The Lone Gunman"? How about the news report from abc regarding CIA involvment in the first WTC?


3) Are you loons aware that much of the same speculation and theorizing was done in the wake of the OKC bombing, I mean some of the SAME EXACT hypotheses and arguments??
Well aware. Did you know that the same goons who investigated that inside job also are in charge of investigating 911? Did you know that the ATF didn't show up that morning? Did you know there were multiple drivers. Did you know that the FBI confiscated all camera's that showed the explosion? Did you know that the amount of fertilizer in the U-haul truck could never have blown the building from the inside out? Did you know that there were multiple bombs inside the building? Did you know that McVeigh was CIA? Do you know anything?


4) At what point do you take the years of propaganda, actual strategy and tactics of ISlamist terrorists for real and why do you continue to demonstrate such ignorance of history, the facts, science, etc?
At what point do you stop and ask yourself if this is really worth it? The constant fear mongering, taking of liberties, and total abandonment of our constitution? All in the name of guys in a cave.... :doh:


5) DO you understand the psychological phenomenon of conspiracism (for lack of a better term) be it JFK, alien abductions, Roswell, 9/11, OKC, the sinking of the Lusitania and some of the more off-the-wall ideas about the Rothschilds and Federal Reserve?
Do YOU understand that the TV is the greatest form of mind control ever created and that the Chinese had the goal of getting a TV in every home for this very purpose. By your post, I see you are under quite a spell. You have instantly lumped all CTers with Alien Abductions and Roswell. Nice Job.



6) Do any of you guys think it's EASIER to maintain a conspiracy among a HUGE group of individuals rather than small groups or single actors?
Do you think everything the TV tells you is true?

[Helter_Skelter]

Ok enough is enough. Listen up you damn loons. We will most likely never know all of the details of that day, but if you feel that your government is responsible for murdering thousands of its own innocent civilians, then stop bitching on the internet and posting videos on youtube, and start a revolution. Take up arms. What better reason do you want? You think Bush of all people could get away this? Clinton couldnt get away with getting his **** sucked, yet Bush walks away with innocent blood on his hands? Come on.......Yes, the government is corrupt to a certain degree, all governments are, some more than others. But on this issue, you have lost touch with reality if you believe it to be corrupt to that extent...The only somewhat valid argument you may have is the project for the new american century, but its a very weak argument at that....My advice: get off the internet and read a book about U.S. Imperialism and America's foreign policy toward the middle east over the past 25 years, and you may understand how we ****ed up over there and caused this mess ourselves. We had it coming to us, but failed to recognize the reality of that threat, and thousands of innocents got killed. So you can take these paranoid, delusional theories and shove them up your ass.

[Mad Mike]

I do look at all previous terrorist attacks and the great majority of them are black ops. You should look into the topic, you may be surprised what you learn.


have you ever seen the pilot episode of "The Lone Gunman"? How about the news report from abc regarding CIA involvment in the first WTC?


Well aware. Did you know that the same goons who investigated that inside job also are in charge of investigating 911? Did you know that the ATF didn't show up that morning? Did you know there were multiple drivers. Did you know that the FBI confiscated all camera's that showed the explosion? Did you know that the amount of fertilizer in the U-haul truck could never have blown the building from the inside out? Did you know that there were multiple bombs inside the building? Did you know that McVeigh was CIA? Do you know anything?


At what point do you stop and ask yourself if this is really worth it? The constant fear mongering, taking of liberties, and total abandonment of our constitution? All in the name of guys in a cave.... :doh:


Do YOU understand that the TV is the greatest form of mind control ever created and that the Chinese had the goal of getting a TV in every home for this very purpose. By your post, I see you are under quite a spell. You have instantly lumped all CTers with Alien Abductions and Roswell. Nice Job.



Do you think everything the TV tells you is true?

Dude. You have lost all touch with reality. You are so freaking crazy its disturbing. Seek help. :doh:

[TMK9973]

Ken - You never answered before....

Is there even one consipery theory that you do not belive?

9/11 - Check
Waco - Check
OKC - Check
Man on the moon - Check
JFK - Check
Election Rigging - Check

Seriously Ken - you beleive ALL of these are consipericy's? These people are SOOO smart and yet you figured it all out? And they haven't killed you?

[SparkleMotion]

So to believe in all these conspiracy theories, WTC bombing, OKC, 9/11, is essentially believing that ONLY our own government has the desire and capability of carrying out terrorism in the United States?

When you look at the big picture, I think a few crazy bastards here and there is a much more likely explanation for terrorist events.

[Henry]

Do you think everything the TV tells you is true?

No. I prefer youtube.

[zoony]

Ok enough is enough. Listen up you damn loons. We will most likely never know all of the details of that day, but if you feel that your government is responsible for murdering thousands of its own innocent civilians, then stop bitching on the internet and posting videos on youtube, and start a revolution. Take up arms. What better reason do you want?



That is a good point.

I guess when you stop and think about it, we can accurately call the 911 "truther" crowd a bunch of spineless cowards. They have knowledge of a vast conspiracy and corruption at the highest levels of government, yet they do nothing.*


I mean, if I "knew" the government did it, I'd be doing a lot more than just posting on the internet.



*voting for Ron Paul doesn't count.


.....

....

[helptheSKINS]

I've never heard any witness accounts of people seeing the plane. Admitedly, I have not looked very hard. Besides, what about all the eye witness accounts that say they NEVER saw a plane?



It amazes me that you can accuse so many people of murdering American's without "looking very hard". You are prooving to be one of the most ignorant people on the planet.

[Henry]

Wasn't the Stardust 32 stories?

Probably. I was speaking of demolitions done up to 2001. I'm sure there have been larger ones since (Didn't the stardust drop about six months ago?), though 32 stories still isn't anywhere near 110. :)

Speaking of consipracy theories, isn't it interesting that yours is the only response to my question? And that two posts after mine the discussion 'randomly' switched to the pentagon?

Coincidence? I think not.

What are these truthers trying to hide? Why don't they just answer the questions? ;)

[Mad Mike]

Very detailed info on the pentagon site.

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/index.php?title=Pentagon

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/4/47/Pentagon_serialnum.jpg

http://www.debunk911myths.org/topics/images/a/a9/Pentagondebris7.jpg

Eyewitness accounts.

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/blflight77w.htm


"Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001


"'I glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building,' said Carla Thompson, who works in an Arlington, Va., office building about 1,000 yards from the crash. 'I saw an indentation in the building and then it was just blown-up up—red, everything red,' she said. 'Everybody was just starting to go crazy. I was petrified.'"
- "Terrorists Attack New York, Pentagon." Los Angeles Times, 12 Sep 2001


"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today


"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002

[Dan T.]

Ken - You never answered before....

Is there even one consipery theory that you do not belive?

9/11 - Check
Waco - Check
OKC - Check
Man on the moon - Check
JFK - Check
Election Rigging - Check

Seriously Ken - you beleive ALL of these are consipericy's? These people are SOOO smart and yet you figured it all out? And they haven't killed you?

EVERYTHING is a conspiracy! :laugh:



More eyewitnesses to the Pentagon crash, for Dance04:

Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001

"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002

"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001

"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 20

"We were the only people, we think, who saw it live," Dan Creed said. He and two colleagues from Oracle software were stopped in a car near the Naval Annex, next to the Pentagon, when they saw the plane dive down and level off. "It was no more than 30 feet off the ground, and it was screaming. It was just screaming. It was nothing more than a guided missile at that point," Creed said. "I can still see the plane. I can still see it right now. It's just the most frightening thing in the world, going full speed, going full throttle, its wheels up," - Ahwatukee Foothill News

Gary Bauer former Presidential candidate, "I looked at the woman sitting in the car next to me. She had this startled look on her face. We were all thinking the same thing. We looked out the front of our windows to try to see the plane, and it wasn�t until a few seconds later that we realized the jet was coming up behind us on that major highway. And it veered to the right into the Pentagon. The blast literally rocked all of our cars. It was an incredible moment." Massachusetts News

Sean Boger, Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief - "I just looked up and I saw the big nose and the wings of the aircraft coming right at us and I just watched it hit the building," Air Traffic Controller and Pentagon tower chief Sean Boger said. "It exploded. I fell to the ground and covered my head. I could actually hear the metal going through the building." dcmilitary.com November 16, 2001

[helptheSKINS]

Ken - You never answered before....

Is there even one consipery theory that you do not belive?

9/11 - Check
Waco - Check
OKC - Check
Man on the moon - Check
JFK - Check
Election Rigging - Check

Seriously Ken - you beleive ALL of these are consipericy's? These people are SOOO smart and yet you figured it all out? And they haven't killed you?


:laugh: I am so excited to have Ken involved. He brings joy to my day with every post. He and Phila are both in Vegas. They should hang out together. Out of all the BS the ignorant people spew, I would love for them to explain where the people are that died in the crash. Isn't it odd that they won't respond to that one. I'm guessing I will continue to not see that answer. You guys are an embarassment to America and the human race. How can you accuse so many people of murder without evidence? Do you not realize you are spitting on the graves of the people who lost their lives or a family member that day? Don't give me the "we are trying to find the truth" BS. You've been given the facts and ignore them. Go post on a truthers board where you can be fed more lies and propaganda.

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/tinfoil.jpg

[Ken]

Dude. You have lost all touch with reality. You are so freaking crazy its disturbing. Seek help. :doh:
Tell me what I said that wasn't true...please.

[Ken]

Ok enough is enough. Listen up you damn loons. We will most likely never know all of the details of that day, but if you feel that your government is responsible for murdering thousands of its own innocent civilians, then stop bitching on the internet and posting videos on youtube, and start a revolution. Take up arms. What better reason do you want? You think Bush of all people could get away this? Clinton couldnt get away with getting his **** sucked, yet Bush walks away with innocent blood on his hands? Come on.......Yes, the government is corrupt to a certain degree, all governments are, some more than others. But on this issue, you have lost touch with reality if you believe it to be corrupt to that extent...The only somewhat valid argument you may have is the project for the new american century, but its a very weak argument at that....My advice: get off the internet and read a book about U.S. Imperialism and America's foreign policy toward the middle east over the past 25 years, and you may understand how we ****ed up over there and caused this mess ourselves. We had it coming to us, but failed to recognize the reality of that threat, and thousands of innocents got killed. So you can take these paranoid, delusional theories and shove them up your ass.
Only valid argue is PNAC huh?

wow.

19 and so much to learn. I remember when I was 19, I didn't know anything....

[Ken]

:laugh: I am so excited to have Ken involved. He brings joy to my day with every post. He and Phila are both in Vegas. They should hang out together. Out of all the BS the ignorant people spew, I would love for them to explain where the people are that died in the crash. Isn't it odd that they won't respond to that one. I'm guessing I will continue to not see that answer. You guys are an embarassment to America and the human race. How can you accuse so many people of murder without evidence? Do you not realize you are spitting on the graves of the people who lost their lives or a family member that day? Don't give me the "we are trying to find the truth" BS. You've been given the facts and ignore them. Go post on a truthers board where you can be fed more lies and propaganda.

http://www.danieldrezner.com/archives/tinfoil.jpg
I would LOVE if you could tell me where the bodies from Shanksville and the Pentagon were.

I'm all ears...