Adrian Peterson said the Skins were the toughest defense he faced

[SmallDaddy]

In a blurb in ESPN hashmarks he called us the toughest defense he faced last year. :applause:

[SittingBull]

Of course, he saw us at out nastiest last year.

[jujuskinsfan]

I think he rushed for 27yards if I remember.

[9_to_42_td]

We were riding on lots of emotion during that game. Good thing we got rid of Greg Williams huh.

[KNGwithOUTaCrwN]

hm. at least hes showin our D the respect we deserve

[bubba9497]

In a blurb in ESPN hashmarks he called us the toughest defense he faced last year. :applause:




and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

[emor09]

i loved the play where Landry stood him up in the backfield on 4th and 1

[AAARedskin]

We were riding on lots of emotion during that game. Good thing we got rid of Greg Williams huh.
The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.

[JustAfan47]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

i'll take a players word over a scout Inc. any day of the year.....isn't funny a day later that something like comes out after Scout Inc. didn't even give us credit to our D. Pukes must not got AP on there payroll...:laugh:

[9_to_42_td]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.


That is exactly what I was thinking.

[Morneblade]

That is exactly what I was thinking.

Ditto. Blache isnt the coordnator that Williams was and I think we're gonna see that.

[JustAfan47]

That is exactly what I was thinking.

althogh it's a good ? mark i would not think to much of it...remember dallas went though the same overhall last year. Tuna left and Bum Phillips came in and ran the 3-4 better then Tuna did the year B4..and i think that Bum isn't that guy with talent to get his guy's to play hard with reckless abandon. He just treats them like men so i hear from there camp..i do believe GB is going the same...

[bubba9497]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.


you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC

[THEface]

We were riding on lots of emotion during that game. Good thing we got rid of Greg Williams huh.

I'm pretty sure we're keeping the defense the same, but Blache will be the coordinator. He knows the defense well. Nothing's gonna change, don't worry.

[Skinsinparadise]

Should be interesting to see how Blache works out, I'll wait and see. Only 2 things concern me about him.

From what I read he's intense but not as intense as Gregg.
And he wants to run a more simplified version of Gregg's defense.

Now if the Redskins D was largerly a by product of Gregg's intense spirit and his sophisticated blitz schemes -- then we are in trouble becuase that seems to be what will be the missing ingredients with Gregg gone.

If that wasn't it. Then we should be fine.

[dustinwhylee]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.
I disagree. :)

Purely on speculation, I think there are a few reasons why players will play harder for Blache than Williams.

Williams put players in the dog house for no good reason that we know of (good reasons would include (IMO): failing to show at practice, poor play, off-field problems, malcontent, etc). Archuletta wasn't the best safety but he wasn't horrible. Besides, you can't bench the highest paid safety in the league (at the time). Also, we know Arrington's story...

I don't think many would contest that he had a huge ego. He believed the success of the defense was attributed to the scheme (his scheme) and not the players. Unfortunately, the releases of Pierce, Ryan Clark, and Smoot (at the time) caused us to be shorted at those positions. Only until we got Fletcher was MLB secure (Marshall was decent but isn't near Pierce or Fletcher). If I remember right, we let Clark go and then picked up Archuletta... And because of the loss of Smoot, we were forced to get Rogers with an early first round pick.

The positives of Blache? He's a jolly guy. He's humerous and light hearted. Above all else, he puts the weight on the players' shoulders. He trusts his players to use their instincts, rather than them having to be in position.

While I know players have loved G. Williams, I can't help but be enthusiastic with G. Blache.

[Pedro]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC

And Williams lost the dressing room in his penultimate season....

But all that aside our run D last season was everything it wasn't the year before. Our whole DL did great against the run and set up the runner well, minus the blockers, for our LBers.

There's no worse way to lose than by being run on up the middle. Landry may be our most talented player. Portis may be the most influential. Montgomery is my favourite though. When Montgomery plays no one runs up the middle. When no one runs up the middle it's easier to stop them round the edge. As AD found :D

It will be interesting to see how Peterson goes this season with the extra attention he will get. I think he'll still be good to watch :2cents:.

[mistertim]

It will be interesting to see how Peterson goes this season with the extra attention he will get. I think he'll still be good to watch :2cents:.

Dude, after about the first 5 games of the season I think he was already getting a bunch of extra attention considering he was looking impressive and everyone knew the Vikes had pretty much no passing game to speak of. But I agree, it will be interesting to watch his Sophomore year in the NFL.

[Morneblade]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)
2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards
2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.

[redskins1]

In a blurb in ESPN hashmarks he called us the toughest defense he faced last year. :applause:
man i loved that game,we shutdown petterson and our offense was clicking..AWESOME!!

[McD5]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC

What makes you believe this?

[Jesus, Mary & Joe Gibbs]

The talk of Williams' 'tensity is hilarious... We had a guy named Joe Gibbs who won a few 'ships that never managed to show much 'tensity... Greg Blache is a guy that's been around for a few years now and the players know and respect him... When Williams was here it was all about his "schemes" and the guy was the highest paid assistant coach in the league... The Redskins have had good defenses over the years and I'd like to give credit. Do I think assistant coaches are overrated in the NFL? Yes, I do... If the Redskins have a healthy secondary, healthy LB corps, and are healthy up front I think this defense can be just as good as last season. They might regress a little but as long as our anemic offense can start producing with the playmakers we added we'll be a better football team. We're fine with Blatche.

[Kdiggy]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.


Why does everyone seem to dismiss Greg Blache, like he is a push over? Greg Blache and Gregg Williams shared the same intensity. But Greg Blache isnt as arrogant.

[Kdiggy]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)
2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards
2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.

Yeah and Greg Blache didnt have ALL the talent that Greg Williams had with the skins.

Brian urlacher is a testiment of Greg Blache.

[smackedHugo]

I think our D is gonna be as good or better than last year .Our offense should hopefully keep them off the field more and a lot fresher this year.

and it also helps that i pray every night for a miracle rookie season from malcolm kelly lol

[Cpt.Chaos47]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.


I wouldn't worry too much. Greg Blache ran the Bears defense a few years ago when they limited talent and still were pretty good. He is the one that made Brian Urlacher who he is , even Urlacher has said that. Greg Blache may not seem intense when in interviews, but he is in the way he coaches. Who do you think whipped Anthony Montgomery into shape. They're running the same basic defense and have the same players. Coaches get far too much credit for what players do on the field. We'll be fine with Greg Blache at the helm. I gurantee you offenses won't get a 25 yard cushion to kill us underneath all day long.

[RandyHolt]

Ditto. Blache isnt the coordnator that Williams was and I think we're gonna see that.

I have suspected that Fletcher is basically going to be running our defense

[Morneblade]

Yeah and Greg Blache didnt have ALL the talent that Greg Williams had with the skins.

Brian urlacher is a testiment of Greg Blache.

I disagree. We dont have a hugely talented defense, and the Bears were not compley woeful talentwise in those years. Greg's first year here we had some scrubs and he did the most with that defense. And we have a much tougher schedual than the Bears ever did year in and year out.

[skinthemboys]

In the game against dallas, didnt we hold them to -4 total rushing yards. :-)

On a sadder note, I do not believe our defense has truly felt the absence of ST. I fear we will drop off soley because of that. ST put this defense on another level.

[Cpt.Chaos47]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)
2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards
2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.


You're showing only part of the numbers just to prove your point. Here is what Wikipedia says about Blache's time with the Bears.


On Jan. 26, 2008, Blache was named defensive coordinator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_coordinator) of the Redskins. He had spent the previous four seasons leading the Redskins' defensive line unit. Blache previously was defensive coordinator in Chicago. In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season.

During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (two in 1999, four in 2000, five in 2001, one in 2002, and one in 2003).

In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season.

They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time.

In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns.

[Morneblade]

I wouldn't worry too much. Greg Blache ran the Bears defense a few years ago when they limited talent and still were pretty good.

They actually sucked for the most part, and had some good players.


He is the one that made Brian Urlacher who he is , even Urlacher has said that. Greg Blache may not seem intense when in interviews, but he is in the way he coaches. Who do you think whipped Anthony Montgomery into shape. They're running the same basic defense and have the same players. Coaches get far too much credit for what players do on the field. We'll be fine with Greg Blache at the helm. I gurantee you offenses won't get a 25 yard cushion to kill us underneath all day long.

After looking at the pass defense for the Bears I'm not so sure. Even in their best year, the best Blache could muster was 13th in yards. Overal passing defense tended to be worse. Of course part of that might be because he doesnt care much about sacks.

[elkabong82]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.

And what makes you think Blache doesn't? The players have already responded saying they like how Blache is simplifying things. And it was either Fletcher or Washington who said GW didn't want to be as agressive, and that a lot of the agressiveness came from Blache. (Though I could be wrong, or slightly off, on my interpretation here.)

That being said, I don't blame anyone for having doubts our D will be as good as they have been. GW is a great D-coord, and losing him certainly merits those doubts. I do like what I've seen and heard from Blache so far though.

[elkabong82]

They actually sucked for the most part, and had some good players.



After looking at the pass defense for the Bears I'm not so sure. Even in their best year, the best Blache could muster was 13th in yards. Overal passing defense tended to be worse. Of course part of that might be because he doesnt care much about sacks.

Again all you do is focus on what Blache did with the Bears. C'mon man, can't you at least acknowledge the good things Balche has done with the Redskins? You don't think working under GW for 4 years may have helped Blache improve at all? There were good aspects of those Bears defenses, but none of those Bears D's had the amount of talent that our D does.

[kevin11]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC
How successful?

[MustangSteve]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DC Thats sure good to hear, I been wondering if he could keep us a top 10 defense.

[SkinsGuy]

Blache will be fine.

Joe Gibbs won three Super Bowls (and went to four) with Richie Petibon as his DC, and Petibon was about intense as a fig newton.

However, his defenses were still good.

I'm not worried about Blache and his "intensity level". :rolleyes: :laugh:

[Scamp1]

Still compared to Marion "The Big Girl" Barbers -3yds for Duh Pokes , Adrian had a field day. Yeah

[elkabong82]

The Blache in Chicago stuff is a bit off topic, and I really don't want to hijack the thread but here are his D's overall and pts allowed rankings during his tenure in Chicago (99-03). *Note, in 2002 the D had so many injuries Blache had 11 different starting line-ups in 16 games. Also, Blache typically didn't have the amount of talent as he does now in DC, largely in part to a cheap FO, but his D was known for it's aggressive, attacking style, something many on here have wanted to see more of for years.

99- 29th overall, 20th points allowed (21.3)
00- 16th overall, 20th points allowed (22.1)
01- 15th overall, 1st points allowed (12.7)
02- 25th overall, 25th points allowed (23.1)
03- 14th overall, 22 points allowed (21.6)

So what I see is a guys who inherited a crappy Bears team in '99, and improved the D each year until an absurd amount of injuries occurred in 2002. The D improved the year after again. Then Blache came to DC, and has assisted in a D that has been top 3, and has been top 10 3 of the last 4 years. Blache has brought along guys like Monty and Gholston, and rejuvenated Andre Carter's career. Our rush D has been a staple over the years, and most of that is attributed to our DL, which Blache has had control over.

[BoRnAndRaiSedSkinsFan]

I'm not too worried about the defense not being nasty. Esp. with everyone now doubting them because of no GW. We have a veteran defense. They don't need someone to get them to play tough. They know what they have to do to get the job done.

[JustAfan47]

You're showing only part of the numbers just to prove your point. Here is what Wikipedia says about Blache's time with the Bears.


On Jan. 26, 2008, Blache was named defensive coordinator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_coordinator) of the Redskins. He had spent the previous four seasons leading the Redskins' defensive line unit. Blache previously was defensive coordinator in Chicago. In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season.

During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (two in 1999, four in 2000, five in 2001, one in 2002, and one in 2003).

In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season.

They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time.

In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns.

Good research my friend....but i dont think this will be enuff for all the nay sayers....!!...this is what i wanted to hear or atleast know and now i know....good find my friend....i do believe in GB

HTTR:helmet:

[Morneblade]

Again all you do is focus on what Blache did with the Bears. C'mon man, can't you at least acknowledge the good things Balche has done with the Redskins? You don't think working under GW for 4 years may have helped Blache improve at all? There were good aspects of those Bears defenses, but none of those Bears D's had the amount of talent that our D does.

What "good" are you talking about? This is what I know about Blache, he is not an attacking defensive guy. He plays a read and react defense and gives up alot of yards. He doesnt blitz much and he doesnt like to rush his ends a huge amount. He plays stop the run first and keep everything in front of you. We stopped seeing blitzes last year, and supposedly he called 60% of the plays.

And those Bears had some good players as well.

What he did there is relavent. He'll play run first, give up alot of yards in the air and not put much pressure on the QB.

[pvkeeper19]

Ditto. Blache isnt the coordnator that Williams was and I think we're gonna see that.
Technically, Blache has always been the defensive coordinator. Gregg Williams was "Assistant Head Coach - Defense."

I don't buy that it was all Williams's doing.

[Morneblade]

Technically, Blache has always been the defensive coordinator. Gregg Williams was "Assistant Head Coach - Defense."

I don't buy that it was all Williams's doing.

Wow.................

Actually Blache was the Defensive Line coach.

[elkabong82]

What "good" are you talking about? This is what I know about Blache, he is not an attacking defensive guy. He plays a read and react defense and gives up alot of yards. He doesnt blitz much and he doesnt like to rush his ends a huge amount. He plays stop the run first and keep everything in front of you. We stopped seeing blitzes last year, and supposedly he called 60% of the plays.

And those Bears had some good players as well.

What he did there is relavent. He'll play run first, give up alot of yards in the air and not put much pressure on the QB.

I'm talking about how our rush D has been one of the best 3 of the last 4 years under Blache, and the players he has developed. C'mon man, at least address what I say, instead of thinking I didn't say it. You honestly think there wasn't anything good from Blache? You follow this team too, so you know there was some good things from Blache, ignoring them and only focusing on negatives doesn't make you right.

And seeing as most write-ups of Balche's tenure in Chicago describe his D as aggressive and attacking, and seeing as Skins players attributed our aggressiveness and attacking last season to Blache, I'm going to believe those people over someone who will only look at the bad side of Blache, instead of at the whole picture.

I never said what Blache did in Chicago wasn't relevant, which is why I posted how the Bears D ranked then. I simply said you tend to focus solely on that part of Balche's tenure, instead of his overall tenure in the NFL.

[bubba9497]

Wow.................

Actually Blache was the Defensive Line coach.


Technically, Blache has always been the defensive coordinator

reality he has been the DL coach under Williams

[RedskinsInFebruary]

I would be feeling a *lot* more confident about the upcoming season(s) if Williams had been retained as DC or even better HC. Hope Zorn proves me wrong, but like I said I'm not optimistic.

[pvkeeper19]

Wow.................

Actually Blache was the Defensive Line coach.
Actually, you're wrong, just like a lot of sports media people who referred to Williams as DC over the past few years. The team always defined Blache as the defensive coordinator and Williams as AHC - Defense, as I said before. I forgive your misguided arrogance, though.

The point is, nobody here really knows anything about the inner workings of the team. Nobody knows what Williams's and Blache's responsibilities really were, and nobody knows what Blache's job is now, except for members of the organization.

I choose to believe that Blache can be just as good a defensive coordinator as he was in Chicago, and that was pretty good. So I'm not expecting a big dropoff in performance this year.

[bubba9497]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)
2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards
2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.


What makes you believe this?


the answer


You're showing only part of the numbers just to prove your point. Here is what Wikipedia says about Blache's time with the Bears.


On Jan. 26, 2008, Blache was named defensive coordinator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_coordinator) of the Redskins. He had spent the previous four seasons leading the Redskins' defensive line unit. Blache previously was defensive coordinator in Chicago. In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season.

During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (two in 1999, four in 2000, five in 2001, one in 2002, and one in 2003).

In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season.

They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time.

In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns.





The Blache in Chicago stuff is a bit off topic, and I really don't want to hijack the thread but here are his D's overall and pts allowed rankings during his tenure in Chicago (99-03). *Note, in 2002 the D had so many injuries Blache had 11 different starting line-ups in 16 games. Also, Blache typically didn't have the amount of talent as he does now in DC, largely in part to a cheap FO, but his D was known for it's aggressive, attacking style, something many on here have wanted to see more of for years.

99- 29th overall, 20th points allowed (21.3)
00- 16th overall, 20th points allowed (22.1)
01- 15th overall, 1st points allowed (12.7)
02- 25th overall, 25th points allowed (23.1)
03- 14th overall, 22 points allowed (21.6)

So what I see is a guys who inherited a crappy Bears team in '99, and improved the D each year until an absurd amount of injuries occurred in 2002. The D improved the year after again. Then Blache came to DC, and has assisted in a D that has been top 3, and has been top 10 3 of the last 4 years. Blache has brought along guys like Monty and Gholston, and rejuvenated Andre Carter's career. Our rush D has been a staple over the years, and most of that is attributed to our DL, which Blache has had control over.


sums it up pretty well, steady improvement on a horrible team, reaching #1 in points allowed in3 years is some successful coaching, even if the next year they were ravaged by injures... (Skins '06? anyone?)

[ncr2h]

You're showing only part of the numbers just to prove your point. Here is what Wikipedia says about Blache's time with the Bears.


On Jan. 26, 2008, Blache was named defensive coordinator (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defensive_coordinator) of the Redskins. He had spent the previous four seasons leading the Redskins' defensive line unit. Blache previously was defensive coordinator in Chicago. In 2003, Blache's Chicago defense finished the season fifth in the NFC in total defense, and 14th in the NFL, the team's highest league overall-ranking since the 1998 season.



Is it supposed to encourage me that the best he could do was 14th in the NFL?



During his tenure, Blache's defenses forced 138 turnovers, including 37 in 2001, the most by a Bears defense since 1990, and accounted for 13 touchdowns (two in 1999, four in 2000, five in 2001, one in 2002, and one in 2003).


This is the one area of our D I actually expect Blache to improve. GW's schemes were not the best at creating turnovers. It sounds like Blache's defenses were much more successful in that regard.



In 2002, Blache dealt with numerous injuries, leading to 11 different starting line-ups over the course of 16 games. While juggling personnel, the Bears defense continued with their attacking, aggressive style that set records during the 2001 season.


This paragraph isn't really saying anything good, it's just explaining why they sucked on D that year.


They forced 64 tackles behind the line of scrimmage and reached a league plateau by forcing at least one turnover in 33 consecutive games, the second longest active streak in the NFL at the time.

In 2001, Blache molded the Bears defense into one of the top units in the league, producing the top-ranked scoring defense by allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 points per game). His run defense finished second in the NFL and first in the NFC, allowing just 82.1 yards per game, while allowing only three rushes of 20 yards or more all seasons and only six rushing touchdowns.

Alright, he had one outstanding year and a bunch of subpar years. All the while, his defense was effective at forcing turnovers. I'll take Gregg Williams, please. The man built one of the top 5 defenses over the past 5 years (Ravens, Bears, Bucs, Jags)...Blache is a respected veteran, but looking at his resume I don't quite see that second G yet.

[JustAfan47]

Wow.................

Actually Blache was the Defensive Line coach.

Why so much negativity towards GB?....Do you really feel with the talent that we have that are D. will fall off that much? That our D is going to be at the bottom tear of the league?...

[ArmchairRedskin]

We have a lot of talent on defense. I don't see any reason to believe that if they stay healthy at least for the most part that we wouldn't have a good shot at keeping near the top ten. When you have a guy like London Fletcher on the field making calls it makes the coordinator's job a whole lot easier. Blache just has to keep on keepin' on. Maybe he'll actually do some adjusting during gametime so we can avoid embarrassing blowouts like the Giants game of a few year ago and the Patriots game last year.

[ncr2h]

For some perspective, here's how the Bears defense stacked up during Blache's tenure according to footballoutsiders.com:


Year Bears Skins
1999 2.4% (23) 2.5% (24)
2000 4.7% (21) -9.0% (10)
2001 -14.8% (6) -12.2% (10)
2002 4.5% (21) -6.1% (8)
2003 0.4% (18) 10.3% (27)

Avg. -0.56% -2.9%

I compared them to the Redskins defenses since we are all a lot more familiar with our own defense than with the Chicago defense during that time period. It seems to me that Blache's defense, by most statistical measures, were consistently below average, with one outstanding performance.

[JustAfan47]

^^^^^.....true true

[JustAfan47]

For some perspective, here's how the Bears defense stacked up during Blache's tenure according to footballoutsiders.com:


Year Bears Skins
1999 2.4% (23) 2.5% (24)
2000 4.7% (21) -9.0% (10)
2001 -14.8% (6) -12.2% (10)
2002 4.5% (21) -6.1% (8)
2003 0.4% (18) 10.3% (27)

Avg. -0.56% -2.9%

I compared them to the Redskins defenses since we are all a lot more familiar with our own defense than with the Chicago defense during that time period. It seems to me that Blache's defense, by most statistical measures, were consistently below average, with one outstanding performance.

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:

[[[ghost]]]

Ditto. Blache isnt the coordnator that Williams was and I think we're gonna see that.

I know Williams was known for his schemes, but I have to say that it seemed as if his charisma and character are what made this defense.

[ArmchairRedskin]

No, I'm sure Blache will be the exact same coordinator he was in 2003 despite the fact that we have a bunch more talent on the field and despite the fact that this same unit was top ten just last year. I doubt Blache picked up anything from GW these last four years. How could he? His 2003 stats say he's gonna suck.

[skinsince72]

I was nervous as hell for the Minny game. Wasn't it a must win game? The D looked great and I think that game sent a message to the playoff bound teams. I have some pukes fans that came right out and said they did not want to see the Skins in the second round. Little did they know they should have been cheering for the Skins during the Seatlle game.

[JustAfan47]

No, I'm sure Blache will be the exact same coordinator he was in 2003 despite the fact that we have a bunch more talent on the field and despite the fact that this same unit was top ten just last year. I doubt Blache picked up anything from GW these last four years. How could he? His 2003 stats say he's gonna suck.

R u being sarcastic or r you trying to make a point?

[ncr2h]

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:


Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)
Roosevelt Colvin in his prime
Brian Urlacher in his prime
Mike Brown in his prime
Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th
2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th
2001 - 4th
2002 - 2nd, 4th
2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.




*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)

[mrdoctor]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

those guys are a buncha dopes
they get paid to hate on us

[ncr2h]

but once again the bears didn't have the talent level the skins do now....and onther note do you not think that GB didn't learn anything from such a great coordinator as your God GW???...didn't AM improve as a player over his nfl career cause of what coach?...:doh:

As a reply to your second point about Anthony Montgomery:

First of all, when you wrote the abreviation "AM" I had to think for a minute about whom you were talking about. That's a testament to Montgomery's impact in the league thus far.

Let's talk about Walt Harris, who has spent 5 of his 12 seasons on defenses coached by Blache. In those five seasons, he racked up 7 interceptions. In his 7 seasons away from Blache, he racked up 25 interceptions. Great improvement.

Tony Parrish got 7 interceptions in his 3 years under Blache. In his next season, away from Blache, he picked off 7 passes. The next year, 9. The next year, 4.

I'm not saying Blache sucks. But it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him as evidence that Blache is on the same level as Williams. Look at Sean Taylor. Look at Marcus Washington, Lamar Marshall, Antonio Pierce.

The fact is we lost one of the best coordinators in the league. I would really love to see Blache surpass what Williams did here, but unfortunately there's not much other than blind optimism to support that hope. The facts don't stack up in his favor.

[JustAfan47]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)
Roosevelt Colvin in his prime
Brian Urlacher in his prime
Mike Brown in his prime
Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th
2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th
2001 - 4th
2002 - 2nd, 4th
2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.




*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)


wow...just really wow...i'll give you BU and RC...lol has walt really even come close to those type of numbers since that season? :doh: ....so what that they spent most picks on D so what.....that does not mean that they get the talent they want fool!.....LL full of talent. LF proven talent. MW proven talent. AC full of talent. CR full of talent. SS proven talent. RMc full of talent.

all of those players had better years then b4 cause of there talent beside LF, and MW do to missing games!...

[JimmyConway]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)
Roosevelt Colvin in his prime
Brian Urlacher in his prime
Mike Brown in his prime
Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:


You're right. The players you mentioned weren't bad but they were never that great either other than Urlacher.

Their team D that year was truly something to admire. 5 players with 2 or more interceptions. 6 players with more than 3 sacks. You can't doubt that Blache was getting the most out of his players. Why can't he do the same here with guys like Fletcher, Landry, and Carter to work with?

[elkabong82]

Where are people getting this "talent" argument from?

Walt Harris in his prime (13th overall pick in 1996, snagged 11 INTs before Blache got to him)
Roosevelt Colvin in his prime
Brian Urlacher in his prime
Mike Brown in his prime
Jerry Azumah

Those aren't bad players. And they were spending plenty of high draft picks on defense as well:

1999 - 2nd, 4th, 4th
2000 - 1st, 2nd, 4th
2001 - 4th
2002 - 2nd, 4th
2003 - 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 4th

(I'm only counting the first 4 rounds because after that it's a crap shoot)

That's 14 out of 20 possible picks* used on the defensive side of the ball. So where is this "lack of talent" argument coming from? They had plenty of talent.




*note: I did not actually count how many picks the Bears made each year, I assumed that they had one pick in each round every year (which is not true, but it should average out more or less over the years)

Mentioning a few good players doesn't negate the point. Why don't you try listing the entire starters, instead of hand picking a couple good ones?

BTW, it must be a shoddy talent level if you have to tout Colvin and Harris as star players "in their prime." The most INTs Harris had with the Bears was 5, and his INT production didn't have a huge drop off under Blache cuz there wasn't much to drop off, yet you imply there was.

Colvin had his best years in Chicago, putting up double-digit sacks in 2001 and 2002, so much for the Blache hates sacks theory others were claiming. A LBer with double-digit sacks would imply an aggressive attacking-style D, like I and others have said. Anyways, Colvin hasn't done much until recently with the Pats, and I'd take any one of our LBers over him. The fact Balche got so much out of Colvin, and the Pats haven't even ben able to duplicate the production (though they've come close once) is more of a testament to Blache.

Care to mention Blache had McQuarters, Holdman, and Brown, who while in their primes, have never been much more than "mid-level" players?

The lack of talent argument is coming from who was on their roster from 99 to 03. Why don't we see who they drafted on D (rd 1-4), instead of just acting like cuz they spent high picks on D it means they had great talent. Bears haven't exactly had the best FO in terms of drafting.

99- Russel Davis, Colvin, Holdman
00- Urlacher, Mike Brown, Reggie Austin
01- Karon Riley
02- Roe Williams, Alex Brown
03- Michael Haynes, Charles Tillman, Lance Briggs, Todd Johnson, Ian Scott

00 and 03 were the best D drafts while Blache was there, and both those years the D improved from the previous year.

For all the moaning about the yards Blache's D gave up, why is there no mention ofhis best D in 2001, being 1st in the NFL in points allowed (12.7)? Who cares about yards when your D isn't allowing opponents to score? Do you realize if we had a D that only allowed 12-13 points a game we'd go 13-3 and win the division every year?

2001 was Blache's best D, so let's look at that starting roster. If it isn't as good as the talent we have now, then the other D talent levels aren't likely better.

RE: Phillip Daniels
DT: Keith Traylor
DT: Ted Washington
LE: Brian Robinson
OLB: Warrick Holdman
MLB: Brian Urlacher
OLB: Colvin
CB: RW McQuarters
CB: Walt Harris
CB: Jerry Azumah
FS: Mike Brown
SS: Tony Parrish

Even Chicago's best D under Blache only had 1, maybe 2 standouts. Chicago also didn't have the good depth this current team has.

Since Blache has been in DC, the rush D has been top 5 in 2 of his 4 years here. Blache has developed several players on the DL (Monty, Gholston, Carter) and even was able to put the team at 9th in sacks with Daniels and Wynn as his DEs.

I've already said I understand doubts now that GW is gone, why can't you guys like you and Mornenblade look at both sides of the fence, instead of just harping on solely negative aspects of Balche's D from over 5 years ago? Some of you guys wanted GW as our head coach, but if I applied your method of thinking to that situation, then I too could only focus on the negatives of GW as head coach with Buffalo, and conclude he'd be terrible as HC here, eventhough it isn't necessarily the case.

[elkabong82]

As a reply to your second point about Anthony Montgomery:

First of all, when you wrote the abreviation "AM" I had to think for a minute about whom you were talking about. That's a testament to Montgomery's impact in the league thus far.

Let's talk about Walt Harris, who has spent 5 of his 12 seasons on defenses coached by Blache. In those five seasons, he racked up 7 interceptions. In his 7 seasons away from Blache, he racked up 25 interceptions. Great improvement.

Tony Parrish got 7 interceptions in his 3 years under Blache. In his next season, away from Blache, he picked off 7 passes. The next year, 9. The next year, 4.

I'm not saying Blache sucks. But it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him as evidence that Blache is on the same level as Williams. Look at Sean Taylor. Look at Marcus Washington, Lamar Marshall, Antonio Pierce.

The fact is we lost one of the best coordinators in the league. I would really love to see Blache surpass what Williams did here, but unfortunately there's not much other than blind optimism to support that hope. The facts don't stack up in his favor.

So because you didn't register AM as Monty right away, it means he is no good? Wow. Great basis for judgement. :doh: Nevermind the fact he was a 5th rounder who Balche has developed into a starter.

You say it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him, yet you've been given more than one player. I'd say it is stupid to look at on or two good players under Blache and act like the entire D had a good talent level, and I'd also say it is stupid to cherry pick stats, and only use INTs as your measure of success for Blache.

[JustAfan47]

So because you didn't register AM as Monty right away, it means he is no good? Wow. Great basis for judgement. :doh: Nevermind the fact he was a 5th rounder who Balche has developed into a starter.

You say it's stupid to point to one player who improved under him, yet you've been given more than one player. I'd say it is stupid to look at on or two good players under Blache and act like the entire D had a good talent level, and I'd also say it is stupid to cherry pick stats, and only use INTs as your measure of success for Blache.

Amen to you elkabong82...i thought that i was going to have to do this debate by myself..

[SnyderMustGo]

I always have to cry a little inside every time I hear someone try to tell me that these guys we now have were really successful and should do great.

If Blache was a great defensive coordinator, he wouldn't have lost his job and taken a demotion to a position coach.

How long was Greg Williams on the market once he left? That's what happens to great defensive coordinators.

How long was Al Saunders on the market once he left?

How long did Zorn languish as a position coach with no promotion?

Are we really morons enough to think that somehow every other team in the league passed on these guys and somehow we were lucky enough to have these amazing coordinators just hiding there waiting for their opportunity to dominate with the Skins?

If you cannot concede that it is a large step down from Williams and Blache, then you'll justify anything through burgandy-tinted glasses.

[elkabong82]

I always have to cry a little inside every time I hear someone try to tell me that these guys we now have were really successful and should do great.

If Blache was a great defensive coordinator, he wouldn't have lost his job and taken a demotion to a position coach.

How long was Greg Williams on the market once he left? That's what happens to great defensive coordinators.

How long was Al Saunders on the market once he left?

How long did Zorn languish as a position coach with no promotion?

Are we really morons enough to think that somehow every other team in the league passed on these guys and somehow we were lucky enough to have these amazing coordinators just hiding there waiting for their opportunity to dominate with the Skins?

If you cannot concede that it is a large step down from Williams and Blache, then you'll justify anything through burgandy-tinted glasses.
:laugh: By your logic, Belichick is a terrible head coach because the Brown s let him go. I mean, if he was so great the Browns would have never let him walk, right?

Now you're high on Saunders and Wiliams since they've left? Gee, when they were here all you did was run them into the ground with the rest of the team. But now that they've left in your mind they are great coordinators again. What a hypocrite/troll. Your antics are tired and petty.

[SnyderMustGo]

Now you're high on Saunders and Wiliams since they've left? Gee, when they were here all you did was run them into the ground with the rest of the team. But now that they've left in your mind they are great coordinators again. What a hypocrite/troll. Your antics are tired and petty.

You just fabricated this. Find anywhere where I ran Saunders and Williams into the ground or shut your mouth.

Saunders and Willaims are good coaches who immediately got another position.

No team in the league expressed interest as a OC for Zorn in the last decade (much less a head coach). Blache had some Rooney Rule interviews, but he has not been considered to be a sought after DC. The guy he is replacing is such a guru and so sought after that he had a job within a month.

Yes or no, elkabong: is Blache a step back from Gregg Williams?

[elkabong82]

You just fabricated this. Find anywhere where I ran Saunders and Williams into the ground or shut your mouth.

Saunders and Willaims are good coaches who immediately got another position.

No team in the league expressed interest as a OC for Zorn in the last decade (much less a head coach). Blache had some Rooney Rule interviews, but he has not been considered to be a sought after DC. The guy he is replacing is such a guru and so sought after that he had a job within a month.

Yes or no, elkabong: is Blache a step back from Gregg Williams?

I don't know if Blache is a step back, I have to see how our D does with him at the helm. However, I have already said in this thread I understand concerns about drop off given GW is a great D-coord.

Why'd you ignore my comment about Belichick?

And you constantly throw this team under the bus, so why wouldn't I think you've done the same to GW and AS? But I will go digging through your long post counts of incessant bashing. But if/when I do find such things, what will you say then? Or will you simply "shut your mouth?" BTW, I'm sure you weren't so high on GW after '06, maybe I'll start there.

[fnkdctr(007)]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:


WE might but it might still be top 10 and ou offense and special teams might make up the difference. :eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[robotfire]

you do know Blanche was very successful as the bears DCThat's debatable. He did have the number one defense in one of those years, but the rest were pretty lackluster. He does get turnovers out of his guys, though. Also, Blache has more talent to work with here than he did in Chicago.

The only fear I have is whether our defense will remain disciplined like they were under Williams. Also, they might not be as creative.

[SnyderMustGo]

Why'd you ignore my comment about Belichick?

Because it's a stupid non-point. Because things happened one way on one occasion does not mean they happen that way on every occasion. The vast majority of times, when a guy loses a position as a coordinator and goes to a position coach, they do not come back and be stud coordinators.

Ron Rivera was far more successful as DC in Chicago than Blache, and when he lost his job in Chicago, the best he could get was a linebacker coaching position in San Diego. But by your logic, it is a certainty that Rivera will be a great DC once Cottrell retires or gets run out of town once his moronic owner screws him over in a coaching search.

[elkabong82]

Because it's a stupid non-point. Because things happened one way on one occasion does not mean they happen that way on every occasion. The vast majority of times, when a guy loses a position as a coordinator and goes to a position coach, they do not come back and be stud coordinators.

Ron Rivera was far more successful as DC in Chicago than Blache, and when he lost his job in Chicago, the best he could get was a linebacker coaching position in San Diego. But by your logic, it is a certainty that Rivera will be a great DC once Cottrell retires or gets run out of town once his moronic owner screws him over in a coaching search.

OH, it's a non-point because it doesn't vibe with what you said, Got it. :rolleyes:

You claimed Zorn and Blache aren't good, or whatever, because nobody else wanted them or signed them. I gave you an example of a coach not doing well, then moving on and doing very well. But somehow only your warped view of things is right?

BTW, if you really weren't so down on Saunders and GW (and I can't go back any further in your post history than December 2007 so I can't dig up your trashing them directly) then why do you constantly trash the team and it's players? Why are you such a big fan of a complete and total rebuild?

Looking at your post history, which is despressing as hell and makes me wonder why you even bother being here) it's obvious you only became a fan of GW and AS once they had left and Zorn and Blache took over. It gave you an opportunity to do the thing that all your pother posts do, which is bash the team. You get to say they are both downgrades (though you conveniently ignore that neither has coached a down for the Skins yet) and trash the team.

In fact, going through your posts, all you are capable of is vehement animosity towards the team and most of the players. Your thoughts and opinions on the Skins, from your post history, is based solely on your hatred of Snyder and the FO, and apparently stems from when we fired Marty. I saw that mentioned more than anything else. You can't separate bias from fact, and you can't even be respectful when you are criticizing. No wonder you've been banned from here before.

So, if you really were high on AS and GW before, I seriously doubt you would have been such a proponent of a total rebuild. But that is your schtick because you can't get past your hatred of Snyder (so much so your name on here is dedicated to it). Hate on anything and everything Redskins, with the exception of Chris Cooley. I saw you are a big fan of his at least. Of course that should also show just how negative, cynical, and biased your post history is, where one player compliment sticks out like a sore thumb.

Why'd you ignore all but one sentence of my response to you? Is it because, unlike you, I can admit things are true, even if they don't go exactly with my opinion? I admitted concerns about drop off from GW to Blache are legitimate, eventhough I myself think there won't be much of a drop off, if any. You, on the other hand, can't even admit to the possibilioty the team might be better off with more aggressive coaches calling the shots on O and D.

[SnyderMustGo]

Why are you such a big fan of a complete and total rebuild?
Because we have made so many horrible decisions over Snyder's time that this thing is just a wreck.

I will not be happy until we have a championship again, because anything else is a failure. I will not be happy until we are a perennial championship contender like we were in the past.

But I don't see us getting there with this mess of over-the-hill players, overpaid prima donnas, and me-first players. We need to get back to basics. Build young and fundamentally solid. Get a good foundation going and only bring in team-oriented players. Once you get a good base, then you can add some flash.

But we are just so infected with Snyder's failures that we need to wash the slate clean.


In fact, going through your posts, all you are capable of is vehement animosity towards the team and most of the players.

That's not true at all. I like the old Redskins players. I like some of the guys we have now. I like Samuels, Cooley, Fletcher, Blades, Sellers, Betts, Wilson and a whole lot more. What I don't care for is a certain kind of players that Snyder has brought to this team. I hate the Brandon Lloyds. I hate that we offered to firsts for that POS Chad Johnson. I hate that we have players who think it is ok to skip practices or are hungover. I get sick to my stomach when I saw players "strutting" during timeouts to stadium music when we were losing on the scoreboard. I want players who care more about winning then themselves or looking cool or respect. I want team players who have one goal in mind: championship. Because that's all I want. Anything else is a failure.


No wonder you've been banned from here before.

I haven't been banned, thank you very much.


So, if you really were high on AS and GW before, I seriously doubt you would have been such a proponent of a total rebuild..

I do want a total rebuild. What I don't like is going to Zorn and Blache and not rebuilding but still trying to sell it to me that we are going to win now (despite the fact the coaching staff is worse off). Rebuild requires rebuilding the whole team. If we wanted to win now, we should have stayed with AS and GW.

I'd love to have a coach come in here and clean house. Get rid of the high salaries. Get rid of the me-first players. Keep the team-oriented, blue collar, lunch pail kind of players that made the Redskins so great in the past.

[elkabong82]

Because we have made so many horrible decisions over Snyder's time that this thing is just a wreck.

I will not be happy until we have a championship again, because anything else is a failure. I will not be happy until we are a perennial championship contender like we were in the past.

But I don't see us getting there with this mess of over-the-hill players, overpaid prima donnas, and me-first players. We need to get back to basics. Build young and fundamentally solid. Get a good foundation going and only bring in team-oriented players. Once you get a good base, then you can add some flash.

But we are just so infected with Snyder's failures that we need to wash the slate clean.



That's not true at all. I like the old Redskins players. I like some of the guys we have now. I like Samuels, Cooley, Fletcher, Blades, Sellers, Betts, Wilson and a whole lot more. What I don't care for is a certain kind of players that Snyder has brought to this team. I hate the Brandon Lloyds. I hate that we offered to firsts for that POS Chad Johnson. I hate that we have players who think it is ok to skip practices or are hungover. I get sick to my stomach when I saw players "strutting" during timeouts to stadium music when we were losing on the scoreboard. I want players who care more about winning then themselves or looking cool or respect. I want team players who have one goal in mind: championship. Because that's all I want. Anything else is a failure.



I haven't been banned, thank you very much.



I do want a total rebuild. What I don't like is going to Zorn and Blache and not rebuilding but still trying to sell it to me that we are going to win now (despite the fact the coaching staff is worse off). Rebuild requires rebuilding the whole team. If we wanted to win now, we should have stayed with AS and GW.

I'd love to have a coach come in here and clean house. Get rid of the high salaries. Get rid of the me-first players. Keep the team-oriented, blue collar, lunch pail kind of players that made the Redskins so great in the past.

What's so crazy is I actually agree with you 100% on certain things, and then wildly disagree with you on others. I think the problem is, when it comes to Snyder and the FO, your tone comes off as very irate, and sometimes you display an arrogance of "i'm always right" to be rivaled only by MSF. I think flexibility in opinion would serve you well. And I'm just tryin' to talk here, not start a fight or anything.

For example, I agree with your methods on team building. I think those are the best parameters for building a success. However, where we differ is that I won't dismiss someone if they don't follow it exactly. Teams show each year there is no set way to win in the NFL.

I don't see a bunch of over the hill players. In years past it may have been correct, given Gibbs' philosophies (and he's won with over the hill vets in the past), but for the most part we have youth and have been slowly phasing out the older players the past couple years. I don't really see any primadonnas either. CP could be argued, but he is a character guy, and a team leader. I happen top think players a team can rally around and win behind are ideal.

I would love for us to be perrenial contenders like we were in Gibbs 1.0. All of us would. However, just because the team hasn't gotten there yet doesn't mean they aren't on the footsteps. 2 playoff appearances in 3 years is a good start. Not great, but good. But remember, Gibbs came from almost out of nowhere, and took a talented roster to the top. How do we know we don't have the same thing with Zorn? He too is coming from a good offensive system, inhereting a talented roster (though you and I obviously differ on the level of talent). The biggest gripe I think most had with Gibbs is we weren't aggressive enough. I think with Zorn and the WCO we get that aggressiveness on O. On D, Blache's D in Chicago was known as aggressive and attacking (it's why LBers like Colvin had double-digit sacks there).

I understand reasons to doubt, but at the same time there are reasons to hope. I think both need to be considered.

I understand the types of players you like, and I obviously like those players too. However, sadly in today's NFL those players aren't in great abundance. One thing we can credit Gibbs for is at least striving to bring in the character guys who put the game above themselves. However, the malcontents such as Lloyd, well we don't actually know who exactly was responsible for those players. We know Dan made the mistake early on of trying to "win now" by bringing in Sanders and others, which made me pissed off. However, since bringing in Gibbs and giving him full control, I have noticed changes in Snyder. We have been a more patient team, but I think the lesson Snyder didn't learn until he put Cerrato in charge was that you can't pander to every need your coaches have. I think that was why we had the FA debacle in '06 (though half those guys have panned out, ARE is a true quality person, on and off the field). I don't think that Snyder can be faulted for every single bad FA we have brought in, as we don't know the exact structure of things over the years. I can just as easily fault all the coaches, as Snyder gave each of them complete control. Neither of us knows either way. It's the blame game, which is uninformed, that tends to rub people the wrong way, as it has me at times.

I thought you were banned before for going over board. If you say you weren't, I'll take you at your word on it.

To me it just seems that having opinions motivated by the desire for something to happen that won't (Snyder leaving in this case) is fruitless, and will get you nowhere. It's seems to me it is much better to be focused on the "now" and learn from the mistakes of the past. I thi nk the team is learning this philosophy. As far as the Chad stuff goes. For all any of us know it was just posturing to prevent our rivals from going after him. For all we know, the conditions which would have made it 2 1sts is that we make the Supwrbowl, which would better explain why Cincy turned it down. Heck, maybe Cincy knew the offer was just a bluff, cuz realistically who would have turned down that offer? It's all hypothetical, and shouldn't be dwelled on as truth, IMO.

I guess our philosophies differ and are similar at different parts, and I know we will never agree on certain things. I just think more realistic expectations would be better served as legitimate opinion. Anyways, we are way off topic now. So if you never had a problem with GW and AS, then I'll back off. From your post history though, it's pretty easy to conclude that you weren't a fan of theirs until they left. But whatever, I'll drop it. Just try to actually consider the advice I have laid down here, as it could help you have seemingly more legitimate and less bias-driven opinions. If you don't care about that stuff, then simply ignore me and go about your day. All I can say is come game day you better root for the Skins. If not then we have no need to speak to each other further, and we can just put each other on ignore. Cheers.

[Morneblade]

I'm talking about how our rush D has been one of the best 3 of the last 4 years under Blache, and the players he has developed. C'mon man, at least address what I say, instead of thinking I didn't say it. You honestly think there wasn't anything good from Blache? You follow this team too, so you know there was some good things from Blache, ignoring them and only focusing on negatives doesn't make you right.

We've had a good rush defense, true. And I think it's very important to stop the run. But what it comes down to is I dont like a "passive defence", one that reads and then reacts to a play. One that plays it safe and will alow you to eat up yards because we're playing off the ball to prevent the big play. That was pretty much Blache at Chicago.


And seeing as most write-ups of Balche's tenure in Chicago describe his D as aggressive and attacking, and seeing as Skins players attributed our aggressiveness and attacking last season to Blache, I'm going to believe those people over someone who will only look at the bad side of Blache, instead of at the whole picture.

I'd take that with a grain of salt. You know how accurate most reports are about us, for instance. The Bears caused alot of fumbles as a team and therefore had had some pretty good turnover number. However they were poor in sacks (actually they hold the record for least sacks in a season under Blache) and low INT totals. And they were always in the bottom 3rd of the league as far as passing defense goes.

And....

We were NOT aggressive last year. We were very very passive. Did we blitz? No. You want aggressive, looks at GW's first year. Corner blitzes, Saftey blitzes, people coming from everywhere. Last year, nothing. Sitting back in coverage with a big cushion. Four man rush, playing the run first. This is not aggressive, it's passive.


I never said what Blache did in Chicago wasn't relevant, which is why I posted how the Bears D ranked then. I simply said you tend to focus solely on that part of Blache's tenure, instead of his overall tenure in the NFL.

I look at his full career as well. The reason I look at his tenure in Chicago is because of the fact they had the same job discription. You really cant get a feel for a guy on how he might run a defense when he is a position coach. So I look at his stay in Chicago.

[Hiro]

For those who don't believe that the players will be intense under Blatche ...


Montgomery was punished physically, having to take nearly all of the scout repetitions in practice. Mentally? "There was a lot of verbal abuse," he said. "It kind of got me down, but I just fought through it." Greg Blache, the defensive line coach, was the main culprit, but assistant head coach-defense "Gregg Williams (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Gregg+Williams?tid=informline) would sprinkle his seasoning in there sometimes," he said.

"Coach Blache told him, 'Before it's over, you'll be my [expletive],' " said Shirley Montgomery, Tony's mother. "I would be upset when I would hear about it and want to give him a piece of my mind. But I know there's a reason for it. It's like a boot camp. When all is said and done, [Blache] taught him great discipline."




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/22/AR2007092201142_2.html?sid=ST2007092201467

Blatche knows how to motivate players, and is able to do so in a way without alienating them. As much as I respect Williams as a defensive coordinator, and it seems that the players respected him too, Williams often made it a habit to have players, who gotten on his bad side, stay on his bad side.

I love how he plans on letting the scheme be in more in the players' hands, because with our veteran squadron we have that luxary. If our squad was young, then I'd be alittle concerned. But this is pretty much a veteran defense with youth injected into various places, which means that leaving it in the players' hands can be more beneficial.

[Morneblade]

Actually, you're wrong, just like a lot of sports media people who referred to Williams as DC over the past few years. The team always defined Blache as the defensive coordinator and Williams as AHC - Defense, as I said before. I forgive your misguided arrogance, though.

As far as I can remember, he was listed as the defensive line coach. As for Assistant Head Coaches, Buges was one, Saunders was one, Williams was one. But it's also pretty obvious that even though they had different titles, Buges was the offenseive line, Saunders OC and Williams DC.


The point is, nobody here really knows anything about the inner workings of the team. Nobody knows what Williams's and Blache's responsibilities really were, and nobody knows what Blache's job is now, except for members of the organization.

I think we have a pretty decent idea.


I choose to believe that Blache can be just as good a defensive coordinator as he was in Chicago, and that was pretty good. So I'm not expecting a big dropoff in performance this year.

I hope he's alot better. Most of his defenses were not that good.


Is it supposed to encourage me that the best he could do was 14th in the NFL?

No kidding. That is an "off year" here.




This is the one area of our D I actually expect Blache to improve. GW's schemes were not the best at creating turnovers. It sounds like Blache's defenses were much more successful in that regard.


I'm not expecting much of a difference. We havent been getting many fumble recoveries since Blache has been coaching the DL, why would it all of a sudden change now? And Blaches teams were never high in INT's.

[honeydont]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:

[Hiro]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:

GW got all the press on our sidelines mostly, but whenever they've shown Blatche, he'd be shouting and getting in players' faces to hype them up. Anyone who was able to psychologically toughen up a sweet big kid from Ohio into the tough-as-nails mauler known as Anthony Montgomery gives me the impression that he'll do just fine at keeping our defense hyped. :)

[Redskins:Victory_or_Death]

Sorry to tell you all but GW made our defense go!!!!! He's gone and wev'e got the leftover. The intensity will be missing. Remember when GW was pacing and raving up and down the sidelines-Well that is what he put into the players and Blache will be more sedate. Not a good on the field translation. :applause:Are you applauding your own post? :rolleyes:

Did you ever see Gibbs go stark raving mad on the sidelines? Rarely. And the man won 3 SuperBowls. So I wouldn't say that screaming and foaming at the mouth is a definite sign of genius or ability. Otherwise any rabid animal could coach a football team.

We could always hire:

http://www.grudge-match.com/Images/taz.gif

[Gart Monk]

:whoknows:and GW isn't the the coach because why?

[scruffylookin]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)
2002: 25th in points, 25th in yards
2003: 22nd in points, 14th in yards

Sorry, but that isnt near what Williams did. In fact it's the opposite, 4 crappy years, one good scoring defense that still gave up a good chunk of change. If we had this kind of defenses for a couple years, the guy would be fired.

Thank You for pointing this out. People throw out how "successful" Greg Blache was in Chicago. Fact is, he wasn't. I just hope he learned a thing or two from Williams.

To tell the truth (and I know he's not ready yet) but my hope for the Redskins defense in the future is Kirk Olivadotti. He's been on the staff since 2000 and most impressively is that he's survived all the turnover and been hired by every one of our defensive coordinators. Add to that Gregg Williams' rave about the guy's preparation and attention to detail and that makes me look forward to the day when we can turn the defense over to him.

[Pedro]

Amusing to say the least.

If there is a drop off from Williams to Blache that is based on history then Williams could not still be our DC under any guise.

The ONLY way Williams would still be running our D is if he were HC. As he flat out sucked as a HC he won't EVER get that chance again, here or anywhere else.

So you see, all things being equal the Williams/Blache discussion is a moot point.

Must suck to live in a world devoid of a second chance....

[Califan007]

Not so much.

1999: 20th in points, 29th in yards
2000: 20th in points, 16th in yards
2001: 1st in points, 15th in yards (Passing defense was...horrible, 31st)

Actually, I'm seeing that Blache's pass defense in 2001 was ranked 29th in yards, not 31st...and that they gave up the least amount of passing TDs of any defense in the league (12).

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I don't think Williams will ever get a shot again at HC. I think he missed his chance to get another HC position when he didn't leave after our 2005 campaign, when he was at the top of the list. Snyder dupped him into staying with a promise or whatever.

Our D, better be still at the top without Williams, I guess we will find out.

[Morneblade]

Actually, I'm seeing that Blache's pass defense in 2001 was ranked 29th in yards, not 31st...and that they gave up the least amount of passing TDs of any defense in the league (12).

29th in yards, 31st in attemps. Sorry for the confusion there.

Also they were 1st in scoring defense overall with 24 total TD's given up.

[blueskin]

I wish we could stop all this arguing about GW vs. Blache. I initially wanted GW too, but having thought about it, I feel the ultimate hiring of Zorn was a better move. As for the defence, yes, GW was special. But he gave us fits (20 yard CB cushions, anyone?). Plus he was arrogant as heck. He did run Arrington out of here, for example.

The bottom line, though, is this: GW's gone to Jacksonville, Blache is here NOW. Lets support Blache (if he sucks, we get someone else- end of story). Otherwise, if you GW-partisans can't get over his leaving, then kindly follow him and Prioleau to J'ville.
GW is NOT bigger than the Washington Redskins.

[NewAgeSkins]

GW is NOT bigger than the Washington Redskins.

Of course he is. He's bigger than football itself.

/greggggg's ego

[mcarey032]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.
Yes while he might have had some intensity, this was the same guy who had carlos rogers and springs playing 10 yard cushions. Yes he could do some great things, but he could also do things with the defense that would mistify me as well. I don't know how well we will do overall. There is no guarantee from either side that we will be able to replicate what we did last year. I don't know which year it is, but the last few years the wild card team that made it the last year typically doesn't make it the next year. I hope that we are able to beat that trend. I know that the Giants did it, but I would like to see us be more consistent in our post season exploits.

[elkabong82]

We've had a good rush defense, true. And I think it's very important to stop the run. But what it comes down to is I dont like a "passive defence", one that reads and then reacts to a play. One that plays it safe and will alow you to eat up yards because we're playing off the ball to prevent the big play. That was pretty much Blache at Chicago.



I'd take that with a grain of salt. You know how accurate most reports are about us, for instance. The Bears caused alot of fumbles as a team and therefore had had some pretty good turnover number. However they were poor in sacks (actually they hold the record for least sacks in a season under Blache) and low INT totals. And they were always in the bottom 3rd of the league as far as passing defense goes.

And....

We were NOT aggressive last year. We were very very passive. Did we blitz? No. You want aggressive, looks at GW's first year. Corner blitzes, Saftey blitzes, people coming from everywhere. Last year, nothing. Sitting back in coverage with a big cushion. Four man rush, playing the run first. This is not aggressive, it's passive.



I look at his full career as well. The reason I look at his tenure in Chicago is because of the fact they had the same job discription. You really cant get a feel for a guy on how he might run a defense when he is a position coach. So I look at his stay in Chicago.

What are you basing this passive D thing off of? It's a misperception. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread, and others, that the media and players (like Urlacher) described Blache's D as aggressive and attacking. Like I already said, I'll take their word over yours. Besides, you care to explain how Colvin, a LBer, puts up double-digit sacks in a 4-3 D 2 years in a row in a "passive" system?

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D. Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive. Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache. Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

[skinnyles]

What I'm looking for this year is less internal MESS. You guys have got to remember all the finger pointing and arguing on the defensive side of the ball. I wondered how the hell the players could stay focused and motivated with all the praise the COACHES were heaping on themselves. This year GB is going to let the animals out of their cages .... it will start to show up in the pre-season...and we can forget about GW and his BS attitude. HTTR

[Vicious]

So he coached the same D line that when we needed to win a game and get into the playoffs they held the other team to a single yard of rushing? He coached that D line? And you're worried?

[elkabong82]

So he coached the same D line that when we needed to win a game and get into the playoffs they held the other team to a single yard of rushing? He coached that D line? And you're worried?

Good point. He also coached the DL that was 9th in the NFL in sacks, with Wynn and Daniels as his DEs.

[fansince62]

What are you basing this passive D thing off of? It's a misperception. It's already been pointed out to you in this thread, and others, that the media and players (like Urlacher) described Blache's D as aggressive and attacking. Like I already said, I'll take their word over yours. Besides, you care to explain how Colvin, a LBer, puts up double-digit sacks in a 4-3 D 2 years in a row in a "passive" system?

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D. Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive. Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache. Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

speaking of haters..... :laugh:

[Morneblade]

Good point. He also coached the DL that was 9th in the NFL in sacks, with Wynn and Daniels as his DEs.

What line was this?

[Califan007]

What line was this?
I'm guessing he's meaning the 2004 season, when the Skins' D was 9th overall in total sacks.

[Morneblade]

I'm guessing he's meaning the 2004 season, when the Skins' D was 9th overall in total sacks.

I thought that too, but I saw the line only had 12.5 sacks for the year. Springs was actually tied for the team lead wtih 6 that year. Most of our sacks came from LB's and the secondary, but GW was bringing the kitchen sink then.

[Morneblade]

Last year's D got aggressive towards the end of the season. At first it was GW's vaunted, "bend-but-don't break" D.

Williams was not known for that kind of defense in Buffalo or Tennessee or his first 2 years in Washington. And from many Blache supporters have said, Blache was doing alot of the playcalling last year.But hey, what do I know?



Plus, for the 3rd or 4th time, guys like Fletcher and Washington have said Blache is the one who tried to keep them aggressive.

Willaims and gone and Blache is here. The dirty laundry on Blache wont come out until he is not a coach here. I will say that when the blitzing wasnt getting there early, it disapperaed quickly and for the rest of the season. How much of that was Blache and how much was Williams I could not tell you.


Odd how GW was running the show last season, but you chalk up the lack of aggression to Blache.


See the part about Blache calling the majoity of the plays, as reported by Blache supporters.


Tell me, did you want GW as our head coach? Because with your train of thought, I could say GW would be a terrible head coach here because he was in Buffalo.

1. I would have been happy with it, but I wasnt on his jock. Personally I like the Zorn move (but no exactly HOW it happened) and I've been a Zorn fan since his playing days. Overall a offensive-minded coach that is very good at developing QB's I think was the best move for the club, IMO.

2. You could say that, but you wouldnt know for sure. But let me make my problems with Blache crystal clear, if I can.

I dont think "motivation" will be a problem, as others think it might. I have no doubt Blach can get people playing hard.

I dont think Blache "sucks" as a DC. I think he has a certian way of playing defense, and I dont like it. Blache has said a couple things (not what players have said or wikipedia, what HE has said);

He doesnt care about sacks, and he plays a scheme that is read and react.

I am firmly in the other boat. I care alot about sacks, pressure and everything they do to an offense and I prefer an attacking defense that dictates, rather than is dictated to.

So, there in a nutshell is why I'm not a fan of his. I dont think he is terrible. While his defense talent wise wasnt as bad as people like to think it was (and at the same time out Defense is not as talented as alot of people think we are) but they had crappy offenses that didnt help them out much. What I dont like is his defensive philosophy.

[elkabong82]

I thought that too, but I saw the line only had 12.5 sacks for the year. Springs was actually tied for the team lead wtih 6 that year. Most of our sacks came from LB's and the secondary, but GW was bringing the kitchen sink then.

You might want to go back and check beyond just the starters. The ENTIRE DL accounted for more than half of the 40 sacks the Skins posted in 2004. Springs did have 6 that year, and Washington was the most succesful LBer in terms of sacks, having 4 that season. However, who exactly do you think was clearing things up and occupying O-linemen to allow the LBers and secondary to get those sacks?

Your second post in response to me: I won't fault you for favoring a diferent D scheme than what Blache prefers. However I will fault you on your descriptions of Blache's style, as everyone but you as described it as aggressive. Again, your LBers don't put up double-digit sacks in a passive system. Read and react doesn't mean passive.

Also, you are misquoting Blache. He never said "sacks aren't important." Unless you can provide a link showing he said exactly that, it really just looks like you paraphrasing incorrectly, to suit your own needs, from an article where Blache said he thought the secondary was more important than DL. BTW, the D last year, which you are now agreeing with others that Blache had a lot of responsibility for, finished 8th overall, and that was without it's starting CB2 and FS for half the season. Not to mention the loss of Rocky and Washington playing injured all season. That same D finished in the middle of the pack for sacks, and was sending blitzes, even Taylor and Landry a few times. Ever stop to consider the D philosophy changed with it's personell? For all we know GW switched to bend but don't break because with Landry in at SS, Taylor could play the entire backfield on his own. ST was doing great things in '07.

Just because you don't like a particular system doesn't mean you have to act like that system sucks, when the evidence clearly points to the contrary.

[tone_dubbz]

During that 4 game win streak, we shut down Devin Hestner (CHI), Plex (NYG), Adrian Peterson (MIN), and Marion Barber (DAL). All the high profile players got shutdown by our team.

[Pimpey42000]

Williams was a good coach but Blache has been a successful defensive coordinator and unless they take some serious injuries on the defense this year I don't see much of a dropoff in production, they have some youth @ every position so we will see if it pays off during the season.

[phatSkins27]

AD was right, we have a great defense and with soem injury breaks our way with ROcky, Eraser, and Los we will have a deep and Dominate defense

I thknk some of Gregg's intensity wore on guys in the season so if they are lightened up on a bit everythign will be fine.

[fansince62]

You might want to go back and check beyond just the starters. The ENTIRE DL accounted for more than half of the 40 sacks the Skins posted in 2004. Springs did have 6 that year, and Washington was the most succesful LBer in terms of sacks, having 4 that season. However, who exactly do you think was clearing things up and occupying O-linemen to allow the LBers and secondary to get those sacks?

Your second post in response to me: I won't fault you for favoring a diferent D scheme than what Blache prefers. However I will fault you on your descriptions of Blache's style, as everyone but you as described it as aggressive. Again, your LBers don't put up double-digit sacks in a passive system. Read and react doesn't mean passive.

Also, you are misquoting Blache. He never said "sacks aren't important." Unless you can provide a link showing he said exactly that, it really just looks like you paraphrasing incorrectly, to suit your own needs, from an article where Blache said he thought the secondary was more important than DL. BTW, the D last year, which you are now agreeing with others that Blache had a lot of responsibility for, finished 8th overall, and that was without it's starting CB2 and FS for half the season. Not to mention the loss of Rocky and Washington playing injured all season. That same D finished in the middle of the pack for sacks, and was sending blitzes, even Taylor and Landry a few times. Ever stop to consider the D philosophy changed with it's personell? For all we know GW switched to bend but don't break because with Landry in at SS, Taylor could play the entire backfield on his own. ST was doing great things in '07.

Just because you don't like a particular system doesn't mean you have to act like that system sucks, when the evidence clearly points to the contrary.

your capacity for spin is mind-boggling.

1) Blache is retaining William's system. Not the other way around. Blache has said as much in the press - his twist is to "reduce the packages". Who knows...maybe that's a covert statement about colelctive IQs on defense.

2) Quit referring to William's stint as HC in Buffalo in the DC context. It's dishonest in the extreme...though perhaps fitting to how you go about life/rational thinking. two different jobs...two different roles. The analogy you are fantasizing isn't there.

3) You consistently highlight the positives and ignire the negatives. While that is noble for a B&G ES'er...it also means no one can possibly take you seriously. If your argument vis Blache holds true...then he is accountable for what was afterall and incredibly bad defensive performancein the Seattle playoff game. And don't sugar coat things - if a playoff game doesn't count...then what does?

4) You have scrupulously avoided the heart of the matter...all the distractor stuff about William's ego aside.......how do you know Blache will call a game as well as William's did? You don't. Humility suggests you wait for at least one season's worth of outcomes before trashing the predecessor and heralding the replacement.

You spew out more garbage than I can recall in recent memory...how do you sleep at night?

[Kdiggy]

What "good" are you talking about? This is what I know about Blache, he is not an attacking defensive guy. He plays a read and react defense and gives up alot of yards. He doesnt blitz much and he doesnt like to rush his ends a huge amount. He plays stop the run first and keep everything in front of you. We stopped seeing blitzes last year, and supposedly he called 60% of the plays.

And those Bears had some good players as well.

What he did there is relavent. He'll play run first, give up alot of yards in the air and not put much pressure on the QB.

Name the good players the bears had, besides Urlacher.

[Kdiggy]

Actually, you're wrong, just like a lot of sports media people who referred to Williams as DC over the past few years. The team always defined Blache as the defensive coordinator and Williams as AHC - Defense, as I said before. I forgive your misguided arrogance, though.

The point is, nobody here really knows anything about the inner workings of the team. Nobody knows what Williams's and Blache's responsibilities really were, and nobody knows what Blache's job is now, except for members of the organization.

I choose to believe that Blache can be just as good a defensive coordinator as he was in Chicago, and that was pretty good. So I'm not expecting a big dropoff in performance this year.

AMEN!

[fansince62]

Actually, you're wrong, just like a lot of sports media people who referred to Williams as DC over the past few years. The team always defined Blache as the defensive coordinator and Williams as AHC - Defense, as I said before. I forgive your misguided arrogance, though.

The point is, nobody here really knows anything about the inner workings of the team. Nobody knows what Williams's and Blache's responsibilities really were, and nobody knows what Blache's job is now, except for members of the organization.

I choose to believe that Blache can be just as good a defensive coordinator as he was in Chicago, and that was pretty good. So I'm not expecting a big dropoff in performance this year.

word smithing. at the end of the day...who was accountable for the defense?

but I forgive your intentional arrrogance.... :cheers:

[fansince62]

Name the good players the bears had, besides Urlacher.


that's a nice out!

[REDSKINZ-RIDEORDIE]

Still compared to Marion "The Big Girl" Barbers -3yds for Duh Pokes , Adrian had a field day. Yeah


YEAH :applause: :applause: :applause:

We stomped his azz out that day, I almost forgot about that :dallasuck

[Morneblade]

You might want to go back and check beyond just the starters. The ENTIRE DL accounted for more than half of the 40 sacks the Skins posted in 2004. Springs did have 6 that year, and Washington was the most succesful LBer in terms of sacks, having 4 that season. However, who exactly do you think was clearing things up and occupying O-linemen to allow the LBers and secondary to get those sacks?

Ok, I misscounted total sacks for the line because I had no idea who Ron Warner or Haley were. But here are the totals;

Griff: 6
Warner:3.5
Wynn: 3
Evans: 2.5
Daneils: 1
Haley: 1
Big Joe: 2
Noble: 1

20 sacks out of 40 total.



Your second post in response to me: I won't fault you for favoring a diferent D scheme than what Blache prefers. However I will fault you on your descriptions of Blache's style, as everyone but you as described it as aggressive. Again, your LBers don't put up double-digit sacks in a passive system. Read and react doesn't mean passive.


It does, actually. When you are being dictated to, youre being passive. When you are doing the dictating, you are not passive. If you ar'e waiting to see what is going to happen, it's passive. If you are make the opposition make adjustments acording to what you are doing, that is aggressive.

Washington defense in 04': aggressive
Wasnington defence in 07': passive (even with Carter having a very good year)


Also, you are misquoting Blache. He never said "sacks aren't important." Unless you can provide a link showing he said exactly that, it really just looks like you paraphrasing incorrectly, to suit your own needs, from an article where Blache said he thought the secondary was more important than DL.

How about "they dont matter"?

http://www.bearshistory.com/lore/passrushrevival.aspx

So, yes he did, That good enough for you? And as Blache saying the secondary is more important then the D-Line, that should tell you all you need to know.



BTW, the D last year, which you are now agreeing with others that Blache had a lot of responsibility for, finished 8th overall, and that was without it's starting CB2 and FS for half the season. Not to mention the loss of Rocky and Washington playing injured all season. That same D finished in the middle of the pack for sacks, and was sending blitzes, even Taylor and Landry a few times. Ever stop to consider the D philosophy changed with it's personell? For all we know GW switched to bend but don't break because with Landry in at SS, Taylor could play the entire backfield on his own. ST was doing great things in '07.

The amount of blitzes we sent were negligable. And I dont remember seeing any run blitzes at all. No, you didnt see many LB , corner or safety blitzes for us last year. And you last statement tends to condradict what you are trying to say. If you have a FS that can cover everything, why not send your SS in more often, if you're agressive? You keep the SS back if you CANT cover everything.


Just because you don't like a particular system doesn't mean you have to act like that system sucks, when the evidence clearly points to the contrary.

We were very average in pass defense (16th) so that part needs work. And there are reasons why I dont like that system. And I'm sorry, for any DL coach to think that your secondary is more important than you DL (or any defensive coach for that matter) is about as ass-backwards as it can be. It all starts up front.

[JustAfan47]

If your argument vis Blache holds true...then he is accountable for what was afterall and incredibly bad defensive performancein the Seattle playoff game. And don't sugar coat things - if a playoff game doesn't count...then what does?



Do you think that our D played bad?....do you not think that or O did the D any help for not keeping them off the field?....i mean two int's on D and fumble that didn't go our way but our D was playing hard that day to me..:doh:

[Morneblade]

Name the good players the bears had, besides Urlacher.

Rosevelt Covin
Philip Daneils (who everyone says is a beast here):doh:
Mike Brown (pro Bowler)
Ted Washington
R.W. McQuarters
Alex Brown

[sorrellsskin]

This is a valid concern. I was shocked that GW wasn't brought back, but...
The saving grace is that we have not had any major personnel changes on either side of the ball. We have kept our neucleous on D and that is so much more important than management. The guys you have been in the trenches with are right there next to you for another year. No matter who coaches you, guys like Smooty and Fletch create identities of thier own. That's what defines our Defense! We finish every year strong because we trust, love and believe in each other. That's the stamp that Joe Gibb's return put on us...PRIDE. This is our time to return to glory. Don't worry.

We have a monster waiting for all those nay-sayers out there! We are furious on both sides of the ball! I have a feeling that this year is going to be bigger than many expect, even some of our own... HAIL!!!!

[JustAfan47]

This is a valid concern. I was shocked that GW wasn't brought back, but...
The saving grace is that we have not had any major personnel changes on either side of the ball. We have kept our neucleous on D and that is so much more important than management. The guys you have been in the trenches with are right there next to you for another year. No matter who coaches you, guys like Smooty and Fletch create identities of thier own. That's what defines our Defense! We finish every year strong because we trust, love and believe in each other. That's the stamp that Joe Gibb's return put on us...PRIDE. Don't worry.

We have a monster waiting for all those nay-sayers out there! HAIL!!!!

Amen to that brother....love your quote:point2sky :helmet:

[JustAfan47]

Rosevelt Covin
Philip Daneils (who everyone says is a beast here):doh:
Mike Brown (pro Bowler)
Ted Washington
R.W. McQuarters
Alex Brown

PD is great againest the run..do not argee?...but i think that he is better to play DT this year...just to big of a man now a days....

p.s. too strong and to slow to be a DE IMO

[Morneblade]

PD is great againest the run..do not argee?...but i think that he is better to play DT this year...just to big of a man now a days....

p.s. too strong and to slow to be a DE IMO

I think he is now average against the run. 8 years ago he was very good, but he's 35 and coming off his 2 worst years (tackle-wise) in his career.

[JustAfan47]

I think he is now average against the run. 8 years ago he was very good, but he's 35 and coming off his 2 worst years (tackle-wise) in his career.

true true....but now he is coming into the season fully heathy then in past years to right?...the mans in shape and ready to go from what i hear..i know he is old but so is TO and he still does his thing...not that PD is on that same level just saying thats all..two old men that are in really good shape..

[Morneblade]

Do you think that our D played bad?....do you not think that or O did the D any help for not keeping them off the field?....i mean two int's on D and fumble that didn't go our way but our D was playing hard that day to me..:doh:

The Seatle game should have been a very good lesson for us. What happens when you get pressure on a QB (ours) and what happens when you dont get pressure on a QB (theirs).

Offensively we pretty much stunk because we couldnt pass protect. Defensively we didnt make Hasslebeck uncomfortable and he had all the time in the world.

[JustAfan47]

The Seatle game should have been a very good lesson for us. What happens when you get pressure on a QB (ours) and what happens when you dont get pressure on a QB (theirs).

Offensively we pretty much stunk because we couldnt pass protect. Defensively we didnt make Hasslebeck uncomfortable and he had all the time in the world.

but really two turn over's!!...late in the game! i think that our D did there job and again our O did the D no favours to keep them off the field too...those two turn overs should have been at least field goals..but oh well

[JustAfan47]

i might be wrong but did you see two turn overs in anyother playoff game this year?

[Morneblade]

true true....but now he is coming into the season fully heathy then in past years to right?...the mans in shape and ready to go from what i hear..i know he is old but so is TO and he still does his thing...not that PD is on that same level just saying thats all..two old men that are in really good shape..

Well, Daneils has never been a pash rusher and he will be playing snaps that he'll need to rush the passer. Not everyone runs and 1st and 2nd down like we did last year. Thing is, we dont have anyone else that can do much there full time at this point. Wilson wieghs less than Washinton and James is coming off a couple of serious Knee injuries. I'm not even sure if Daneils gets alot of penitration as a DT, he didnt seem to do much last year there in that role. The guys is strong and in shape, I'll agree. But can he play still? Most around here think so, but I'm not really in that camp. Which is why I've been looking for a DE to replace him for a couple of years.

[JustAfan47]

Well, Daneils has never been a pash rusher and he will be playing snaps that he'll need to rush the passer. Not everyone runs and 1st and 2nd down like we did last year. Thing is, we dont have anyone else that can do much there full time at this point. Wilson wieghs less than Washinton and James is coming off a couple of serious Knee injuries. I'm not even sure if Daneils gets alot of penitration as a DT, he didnt seem to do much last year there in that role. The guys is strong and in shape, I'll agree. But can he play still? Most around here think so, but I'm not really in that camp. Which is why I've been looking for a DE to replace him for a couple of years.

i can argee with you on that..just like i think that JJ is just about done on the O side of the ball would not mind at all but i dont give up hope too..

[Morneblade]

but really two turn over's!!...late in the game! i think that our D did there job and again our O did the D no favours to keep them off the field too...those two turn overs should have been at least field goals..but oh well

I wont disagree with that. And not getting a touchdown off the kickoff fumble killed us (not missing the fieldgoal IMO). But we couldnt run our Offense becaue we had to keep Cooley in to help pass protect, and he was our biggest weapon. And they still got to Collins. Offense had to carry the blame for that lose.

[Morneblade]

i can argee with you on that..just like i think that JJ is just about done on the O side of the ball would not mind at all but i dont give up hope too..

I'm with you on that as well. Hence my thread on trying Rinehart at RT in preason this year I had going last week.

But I try to remain realistic about our squad. We have some good players, and then we have players that only skins fans think are good. I think this year will be a tough one for us, but I think if we dont have major busts from our draft picks we could be quite good next year.

[SkinsFanMania]

It will be very interesting to see how our d responds to Blache. He was successful in Chicago and did well with the lack of talent we have on the defensive line. I really feel our defense will be fine. Maybe not as intense as the last five weeks of the season, but possibly top third of the league.

[taylorcoreskin]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

Aww, you poor thing. Did those mean experts say something that wasn't nice about your favorite football team? :(

[MLSKINS]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:
Man Bubba I think they might be right.

The Cowboys defense is ridiculous
The Giants might have lost Strahan, but with Osi and Pierce they still are good.
The Eagles Secondary is nice, with or without Lito Shepard.

Then you have us, besides Carter our Pass rush is iffy. Our secondary is biliary, and we have to key players coming off of injuries.

Now I am not saying that we have the worst defense in the league. I am just saying we have the fourth best defense in the NFC East RIGHT NOW.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Man Bubba I think they might be right.

The Cowboys defense is ridiculous
The Giants might have lost Strahan, but with Osi and Pierce they still are good.
The Eagles Secondary is nice, with or without Lito Shepard.

Then you have us, besides Carter our Pass rush is iffy. Our secondary is biliary, and we have to key players coming off of injuries.

Now I am not saying that we have the worst defense in the league. I am just saying we have the fourth best defense in the NFC East RIGHT NOW.



Even though we finished ahead of NY and Dallas in points per game allowed and ahead of Philly and Dallas in YPG we're fourth best? That makes no sense.

[fansince62]

I'm with you on that as well. Hence my thread on trying Rinehart at RT in preason this year I had going last week.

But I try to remain realistic about our squad. We have some good players, and then we have players that only skins fans think are good. I think this year will be a tough one for us, but I think if we dont have major busts from our draft picks we could be quite good next year.

morne...the thing about the NFL these days is that there are no teams with an excess of talent. adequate talent coupled to a strong coaching staff (with some luck in the injury dept) and a Championship run is easily in the cards. this is how the NFL braintrust have set up the whole system

I agree with your assessment of the defense. in my mind, the difference these last 4 years has always been the coaching. coaching took decent talent and forged a formiddable TEAM approach. that is why all this nonsense on Williams is so deplorable. he was the difference and should be showered with accolades by all Redskin fans - whether they care for his personality or not. the thing about Blache is....can he be as good a coach as Williams? I certainly hope so......but that respect has to be earned....just like GW did.

[elkabong82]

Also, the definition of best defense highly depends on your value system. If you consider yards (total defense as it is considered in rankings) than the order last season was: Giants, Skins, Boys, Eagles at 7-10 respectively. If you go by points allowed, then the rankings are: Eagles, Skins, Cowboys, Giants at 9, 11, 13, and 17 respectively.

The Giants have lost Mitchell and Strahan, among others, and haven't added much. The Cowboys added Zach Thomas, and Pac-man who might not even play (he shouldn't but Goodell will prob. flop because the media darlings picked him up). The Skins lost Taylor, and Rogers won't start right away, but the team played half a season without the guys, and still finished better than Dallas in both ranking terms. And this was with Rocky going down, and Washington playing injured almost all season.

So I'm not going to buy this hype about Dallas or the Giants. Sacks may be flashy and sparkly, but in the end the Skins D was better than either the Giants or Boys when it came to points allowed, which is the most important stat for defense.

[heatman28]

We were riding on lots of emotion during that game. Good thing we got rid of Greg Williams huh.

Yes, getting rid of Gregg "the tank" Williams was a good thing! :2cents:

[Meast21]

Its hard to get an offense going when you have 13 men in the backfield.

[ncr2h]

So I'm not going to buy this hype about Dallas or the Giants. Sacks may be flashy and sparkly, but in the end the Skins D was better than either the Giants or Boys when it came to points allowed, which is the most important stat for defense.


Williams' defenses measured by your most important stat:

2004: 3rd in the league
2005: 9th in the league
2006: 27th in the league
2007: 11th in the league




RE: Phillip Daniels
DT: Keith Traylor
DT: Ted Washington
LE: Brian Robinson
OLB: Warrick Holdman
MLB: Brian Urlacher
OLB: Colvin
CB: RW McQuarters
CB: Walt Harris
CB: Jerry Azumah
FS: Mike Brown
SS: Tony Parrish


And this defense you used to argue that Blache's defenses lacked talent is pretty damn stacked. Their D line is better than ours. Their linebackers are about as good as ours. And their secondary is at least almost as good.

Please just stop this exercise in blind homerism and admit that there is little evidence to support a belief that Blache is as good of a coordinator as Williams. I hope he proves me wrong, but right now it's looking like a downgrade.

[elkabong82]

Williams' defenses measured by your most important stat:

2004: 3rd in the league
2005: 9th in the league
2006: 27th in the league
2007: 11th in the league




And this defense you used to argue that Blache's defenses lacked talent is pretty damn stacked. Their D line is better than ours. Their linebackers are about as good as ours. And their secondary is at least almost as good.

Please just stop this exercise in blind homerism and admit that there is little evidence to support a belief that Blache is as good of a coordinator as Williams. I hope he proves me wrong, but right now it's looking like a downgrade.

Thanks for bringing up the GW D stats. Good thing I never said GW sucked as D coord while he was here. Even after 2006. Hell, I put my sig on the lin in July '07 saying GW would have the D back in the top 10.

And your perception of the Bears players is only favorable to support your argument. If you honestly think Daniels, Robinson, Washington and Traylor are better than Daniels, Griffin, Monty, and Carter, then there really is no hope for you.

Urlacher is a great LBer. But at MLB, Fletch is right behind him. The tandem of Colvin and Holdman doesn't measure up to the tandem of Washington and McIntosh.

LMAO at McQuarters, Harris and Azumah having comparable talent to Springs, Rogers, and Smoot.

Nice probowl argument with Mike Brown. I guess that means Roy Williams is a great safety. :rolleyes:

Please just stop this execise in blind haterism. I never once said Blache is as good of a coord. as GW, I have only suggested he COULD be. Learn to comprehend instead of just putting words in people's mouths. Of course I also, in this very thread, have said I understand why people would view Blache as a downgrade from GW. You on the other hand, can only see your side of the argument, and can't admit Blache COULD be as good as GW was here.

[Smoot Point Really]

I think the Defense will not drop off dramatically next year... In fact, I think the offense will help our defense maintain more consistency. I don't believe we'll see as many 3-and-outs by going conservative in the 2nd half. We tried not to lose, and that hurt the defense. I'd like to see a more wide open passing and running attack. We'll stretch the field from sideline to sideline and not play so many "tight" formations. I'm not as hopeful now as I was this time last year, but I didn't know we'd have so many injuries. :)

[STBonecrusher21]

Aww, you poor thing. Did those mean experts say something that wasn't nice about your favorite football team? :(

It can actually get upsetting when you actually ROOT FOR THE TEAM!

:rolleyes:

[Morneblade]

Nice probowl argument with Mike Brown. I guess that means Roy Williams is a great safety. :rolleyes:



At the possiblity of being nit-picky Brown was also a All Pro, which isnt much of a popularity contest. It's pretty legit. He is a very good player.

[Morneblade]

I think the Defense will not drop off dramatically next year... In fact, I think the offense will help our defense maintain more consistency. I don't believe we'll see as many 3-and-outs by going conservative in the 2nd half. We tried not to lose, and that hurt the defense. I'd like to see a more wide open passing and running attack. We'll stretch the field from sideline to sideline and not play so many "tight" formations. I'm not as hopeful now as I was this time last year, but I didn't know we'd have so many injuries. :)

I think will appy more to the 09' season than this year. This year I think we'll stuggle on offense while we learn the playbook, especially early.

[MikeB]

and yet ESPN Scout Inc. "experts" think we'll have the worst D in the NFCE this season :doh:

Don't take it too hard... that could wind up being the 4th best D in the conference... :)

[MLSKINS]

Even though we finished ahead of NY and Dallas in points per game allowed and ahead of Philly and Dallas in YPG we're fourth best? That makes no sense.
I try not to look at stats when it comes to defense, espcially from last year. I look at talent and RIGHT NOW, I think we have the fourth best talented defense in the NFC East. I say RIGHT NOW because I have a storng feeling that our defense will be crazy and I have an even stronger feeling that London Flethcher will be a canidate for Defensive MVP. But RIGHT NOW, we have the fourth best defense in the NFC East

[adamyesme1111]

The thing that worries me the most isn't the offense getting used to Zorn's new WCO. It's that because coach Williams isn't around anymore, I fear the D will have a measured drop-off in intensity. Even if they run the exact same schemes, it won't matter. Williams had a great talent at getting guys to play hard and with reckless abandon.

Greg Blache is a hell of a motivator too. I don't think we are missing out on as much as you think.