What's Wrong With Us?

[JGordon_3]

I keep hearing our receivers aren't ready, can't contribute this early. Why not? Desean Jackson is the Eagles #1 WR for all intents and purposes right now and is excelling with noone even above average at WR to learn from. Marques Colston came right in with the Saints and contributed immediately. Going all the way back to Randy Moss' rookie year, do I even need to say it?

I understand the success rate of rookie WRs, but there is precedent for success early. Why can't our guys get in and contribute right away? Is it coaching? Do we have the wrong guys? Are they not dedicated enough to learn the system and the plays? I'm sick of hearing excuses for them. We need these guys now, not later, but now, especially with Thrash's injury.

2 games and counting, 2 combined catches for 11 yards. What gives?

[Bang]

Because of the number of receivers who do make a significant impact in their rookie season, you just named almost all of them from the last ten years. They're few and far between.

What's wrong with "us" is "we" expect too much.

~Bang

[PleaseBlitz]

Because it takes awhile to adjust to the speed of the NFL. In college, Thomas and Kelly were simply better athletes than everyone that guarded them and could just run past them or jump over them. They cant do that anymore. Now they need to learn the nuances that make WR's in the NFL good.

[IbleedBnG83]

Is this thread really brining life back to this old conversation?

I'll agree with the first two responses.

[Lloyds' Mongolian Beef]

If both Moss and Randle El were injured, our rookies would be getting a lot more opportunities. However, they(Moss & El) aren't and they are both performing very well. The only reason you are concerned is because you don't understand the circumstances.

[JGordon_3]

Because of the number of receivers who do make a significant impact in their rookie season, you just named almost all of them from the last ten years. They're few and far between.

What's wrong with "us" is "we" expect too much.

~Bang

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

[Shore-skin]

Maybe this will answer your question. I don't think excuses are being made. Devin Thomas was thought of, since before he was drafted, as a talent that could be developed, NOT someone who would make a considerable immediate impact. Malcolm Kelly has been injured, which makes him pretty hard to judge. Also, the only game we've moved the ball, our receivers looked great, so why does it have to be a rookie catching the ball, when santana is doing just fine while they are adjusting.

[Santana_Fan]

Because of the number of receivers who do make a significant impact in their rookie season, you just named almost all of them from the last ten years. They're few and far between.

What's wrong with "us" is "we" expect too much.

~Bang

Exactly. We expect any and everybody to contribute right from the jump. We want Jason Campbell to be only in his 2nd year starting, to become Peyton Manning/Tom Brady in their prime. We want both of our rookies to be Randy Moss in his prime. I don't think people have ever heard of the word "time".

[JetSkins]

it's because everyone wants the tall receiver, even though IMO Jackson seemed like a much more exciting prospect

[Santana_Fan]

it's because everyone wants the tall receiver

Where's Anthony Mix?

[wrecker]

I think Malcom would be contributing alot now if it wasn't for the injuries. He was set back 3-4 weeks. In 2-3 weeks he will be more involved with the offense.

[mrjoolius]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

Not to mention former Hokie Eddie Royal from Denver who seems to be their primary target when they need big plays.

[Silent Majority]

...Why not? Desean Jackson is the Eagles #1 WR for all intents and purposes right...



You answered your own question. :applause:

[JGordon_3]

Exactly. We expect any and everybody to contribute right from the jump. We want Jason Campbell to be only in his 2nd year starting, to become Peyton Manning/Tom Brady in their prime. We want both of our rookies to be Randy Moss in his prime. I don't think people have ever heard of the word "time".

It's too much to ask that they CONTRIBUTE? Why? Noone said anybody needs to be Randy Moss, but there IS evidence that rookies can come in and succeed right away. Why are you apologizers coddling these guys? There is a problem if they cannot help us right now. Something went wrong. Not to say that it can't be turned around, but I don't think the "They're rookies" is a sufficient excuse anymore. That's all I'm saying. Too much evidence to the contrary from OTHER rookies on OTHER teams.

[[[ghost]]]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.


Braylon Edwards took 3 seasons to hit his potential. Gonzalez had Harrison and Wayne playing in front of him, of course he'd look good. Fitzgerald was a given, Boldin was an amazing rookie. Andre Johnson didn't have a spectacular rookie season, and James Hardy catching a GW touchdown doesn't mean he'll have a stellar Rookie season. Its promising, but no guarantee.

You're looking at Young WRs in general, when you need to be critiquing rookies specifically. Some, like Bolding, Fitzgerald, and Jennings were instant hits. Others, like Edwards, needed time to achieve success. Show SOME patience.

[Spitfire71]

Jackson and Colston were both in a similar situation. For various reasons, nobody gave them the chance to be very productive. Jackson was considered (even, admittedly by myself) to be a guy that would be a great return man and was fast, but just couldn't take the pounding required by an NFL receiver, let alone a #1 receiver. Colston was from a small FCS program (Hofstra) and literally four or five picks away from Mr. Irrelevant, so no one really gave him a shot either. Actually, everyone considered him rather to be an undersized TE.

Jackson and Colston were both brought on to add depth, but were both pressed into service because of serious injuries to guys in front of them. They therefore now have the chance to prove their critics wrong.

------------------

Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly were brought on to add depth and POTENTIALLY edge into starting roles a few years from now. There's no telling what either one would do if pressed into service. Both have been hurt and are adjusting to the speed of the NFL. More importantly, they're not going to get as many passes when they are not only 3rd and 4th (or 5th?) receivers, but when the first two guys on the depth chart have combined for 23 receptions, 327 yards, and 2 TDs in the first two games. Moss looks like his old self now, and unless he proves otherwise, Kelly and Thomas are going to be slot guys.

Incidentally, I would like to congratulate Malcolm Kelly for making his first NFL reception last Sunday. It was a short 6-yard slant, but it got the chain gang moving, and I believe it was on 3rd down, which means that if he drops that ball, we punt - and as close as that game was, that might have made a big difference. He's not scoring 12 points a game for us yet, but that's a contribution.

[kuraitengai]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?
hardy has 2 catches for 12 yards and 1td in two games. (all of which came in the 2nd game)
gonzalez had 37 catches for 576 yards and 3tds his rookie season. (with peyton throwing to him only had 6 catches for 107 yards in his first 4 games. then had one breakout game of 7 catches for 71 yards, before being mediocre the next 5 games with 2 catches for 29 yards)
johnson had 63 catches for 688 yards and 2tds his rookie year. (3 catches, 38 yards, 0tds his first 5 games)
fitzgerald went for 103 catches and 1409 yards with 10tds his first year. so he is an exception.
boldin put up similar numbers with 102 catches for 1402 yards and 7tds, but it was a pathetic cards offense with no run game, so what else were they going to do?
braylon had 32 catches for 512 yards and 3tds and didnt even play til mid october. (6 catches, 64 yards, 0tds in his first 3 games which includes a 1 catch, 2 yard performance)
jennings put up 45 catches for 632 yards and 3tds with brett favre throwing to him.
jones had similar numbes to jennings with 47 catches for 676 yards and 2tds. but again it was brett favre throwing him the ball.

so your evidence shows that through our two games, our rookies are:
equal to hardy outside the 1td he caught.
slightly behind gonzalez/peyton
equal/better than johnson
way behind fitzgerald and boldin, BUT they had no running game at all, we do
better than braylon since he was a hold out
behind jennings/favre
behind jones/favre

so the only people ahead of us so far have hall of fame qbs throwing to them. so its the QB, not the WR in that case.

so you might want to check your evidence even closer than you did before you just spewed off your facts.

[Santana_Fan]

It's too much to ask that they CONTRIBUTE? Why? Noone said anybody needs to be Randy Moss, but there IS evidence that rookies can come in and succeed right away. Why are you apologizers coddling these guys? There is a problem if they cannot help us right now. Something went wrong. Not to say that it can't be turned around, but I don't think the "They're rookies" is a sufficient excuse anymore. That's all I'm saying. Too much evidence to the contrary from OTHER rookies on OTHER teams.


Well I'll take back the word "contributing", but like I said, we do expect way too much from rookies. Yes, rookies do come in and succeed right away, but a lot of rookies can start off hot too, and then cool off later (later in the year, or the next year).

[AKM311]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

Hardy has 1 catch, lol!

Andre Johnson was the 2nd pick. He better have produced.

Gonzalez got to start because of Harrison. Braylon got to start because the rest of the team sucked and he still had only an OK rookie season.

James Jones was great? Greg Jennings produced in year 3.

So technically your wrong! Bang is dead on. WRs do not produce often as rookies unless they are on bad teams and getting the opps to play. Right now Kelly has been injured. Thomas is raw. They were 2nd round picks. They need to develop! Be patient instead of complaining.

[JGordon_3]

You guys are funny. The operative word is CONTRIBUTE!!!!!!

So James Hardy's game winning TOUCHDOWN is nothing?!! Fine. Just pay attention to the point that the fact that he was even in the game in such a critical situation says something.

Nevertheless, every single one of the guys I named contributed in their rookie years and were effective at least in spots (and there are more, just didn't name them) , our guys have 2 catches for 11 yards combined. I'm just wondering if we'll see a little more. If Randle El and Santana and Cooley are able to be so effective, then theyse guys should be working against subpar nickel and dime guys and should be able to get some things going.

I don't think it's too much to ask for second round WRs to contribute early in the season. Others have. Ours haven't thus far. Yes it's early, just an observation.

[kuraitengai]

Hardy has 1 catch, lol!

Andre Johnson was the 2nd pick. He better have produced.

Gonzalez got to start because of Harrison. Braylon got to start because the rest of the team sucked and he still had only an OK rookie season.

James Jones was great? Greg Jennings produced in year 3.

So technically your wrong! Bang is dead on. WRs do not produce often as rookies unless they are on bad teams and getting the opps to play. Right now Kelly has been injured. Thomas is raw. They were 2nd round picks. They need to develop! Be patient instead of complaining.
maybe i shoulda just used your logic instead of spending the 10 minutes i did looking up the rookie year stats and game logs. :)

but actually, hardy has 2 catches. other than that, youre dead on. haha

[kuraitengai]

You guys are funny. The operative word is CONTRIBUTE!!!!!!

So James Hardy's game winning TOUCHDOWN is nothing?!! Fine. Just pay attention to the point that the fact that he was even in the game in such a critical situation says something.

Nevertheless, every single one of the guys I named contributed in their rookie years and were effective at least in spots (and there are more, just didn't name them) , our guys have 2 catches for 11 yards combined. I'm just wondering if we'll see a little more. If Randle El and Santana and Cooley are able to be so effective, then theyse guys should be working against subpar nickel and dime guys and should be able to get some things going.

I don't think it's too much to ask for second round WRs to contribute early in the season. Others have. Ours haven't thus far. Yes it's early, just an observation.
exactly why i listed their production from their FIRST FEW GAMES.

all you have to go on for our receivers is their first TWO games. so i listed the yearly totals and first 2-5 game production for them. and outside of the ones who had manning and favre throwing to them. they are on par with our receivers. so your argument is still lacking, even emphasizing the word 'CONTRIBUTING'.

[disappointedskins]

lets throw in a why didn't we pick up DeSean jackson!

[kuraitengai]

lets throw in a why didn't we pick up DeSean jackson!
and you can add eddie royal to the list.

but did we really want another short WR to add to ARE and moss? hindsight is 20/20

[ouvan59]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

Why are excuses being made? Because there are a ton of excuses. For every guy you have listed who has had early success there are 10 times the number of receivers who have had good NFL careers who didn't do well their first year. And let's get it right, we are talking about two friggin game into their NFL careers. Take a look at Reggie Wayne's first season (one catch through 5 games). Take a look at the NFL's top two leaders in receptions last year in Wes Welker and T.J. Houshmandzadeh. Take a look at Brandon Marshall's first season. Santana Moss, Hines Ward, TO all had fewer catches at this point in their careers than Kelly & Thomas. I could go on and on but I won't. Yep, it's frustrating these guys aren't contributing any more than they are but it's way too early to press any panic buttons. It does generally take time whether you want to see it or not.

[praise_gibbs]

Wasn't D-Jack the most 'NFL ready' WR in the draft? Kelly was a risk (still love this pick though), Devin Thomas was a project (high risk here but, the dude is a complete baller).

I am not shocked that the Eagles are able to get this numer 1 WR the ball. While, the Redskins are unable to get their inured 4th and 5th WR the ball. I see the Skins slowly fazing out ARE and when they do, you will see more of Kelly and Thomas.

[ouvan59]

and you can add eddie royal to the list.

but did we really want another short WR to add to ARE and moss? hindsight is 20/20

Bingo. Show me the threads of outrage on these boards when we passed on either of these guys.

[HBnotBlades]

Read this...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2448029


Edit: I originally posted the whole article, but it was gigantic so I'm just going to post the link.

[gortiz]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

dude, you need to cut it out, seriously. You are really pushing to get into the "dumbest things a fan ever said" thread that is going around ...

That' might be James Hardy's only TD this year...

Anthony Gonzalez is playing with the greatest QB ever ...

A. Johnson was the 3rd pick overall, and FREAKING FREAK. Bad example

etc, etc.

Here is your problem, the list does not go on and on ... for every highly touted WR that has an impact there are probably 3 don't. It is not like these players are every where and the skin's FO is not good enough to land them. See Philly (Deshean does not count yet), see Miami, see Seattle (before Branch), see San Fran, see Detroit and all their busts, see the Chargers before Chambers, AND ON AND ON.

[Darth Tater]

];5547169']Braylon Edwards took 3 seasons to hit his potential. Gonzalez had Harrison and Wayne playing in front of him, of course he'd look good. Fitzgerald was a given, Boldin was an amazing rookie. Andre Johnson didn't have a spectacular rookie season, and James Hardy catching a GW touchdown doesn't mean he'll have a stellar Rookie season. Its promising, but no guarantee.

You're looking at Young WRs in general, when you need to be critiquing rookies specifically. Some, like Bolding, Fitzgerald, and Jennings were instant hits. Others, like Edwards, needed time to achieve success. Show SOME patience.
RG was our #2 all-time rookie WR (well, #3 technically but was Gary Clark really just a rookie?). You do not have DMAC or Manning (supported as you point out by Harrison and Wayne) throwing to our rookies. The rookie WR who is a difference maker with help is a rarity. I can't even come up with a rookie WR who is a difference maker who is able to carry his team (as a WR).

[DieHard86]

because our genius draft got us two idiots who are out of shape

[ouvan59]

So James Hardy's game winning TOUCHDOWN is nothing?!! Fine. Just pay attention to the point that the fact that he was even in the game in such a critical situation says something.

And you have decided to ignore the fact that Devin Thomas was in on the 4th and 16 play against the Giants? Again, yes it's disappointing that they aren't farther along than they are but it's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early. It's early.

[Oldskool]

Actually, there's more......James Hardy just caught the game winning TD for the Bills this past week, Anthony Gonzalez had a good year for the Colts last year, Andre Johnson for the Texans, Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin for the Cards, Braylon Edwards for the Browns, Greg Jennings and James Jones for the Packers, the list goes on and on, you need more evidence? You're wrong buddy.

As I said there is precedent for success, maybe not earth-shattering numbers, but success, just not here in DC very often. And my question is why? Why are excuses being made?

For every Jennings, Fitz, and Bolden there are dozens of guys that never make an impact. It's great to pick out the successes and disregard the failures, isn't it?

Just in the last few years..

Dwayne Bowe
Sidney Rice
Sinorice Moss
Travis Wilson
Troy Williamson
Mike Williams
Matt Jones
Mark Clayton

All 1st day or very early 2nd day picks.

[STBonecrusher21]

Who needs rookies when Santana is putting up the number's he's putting up so far?

[BoRnAndRaiSedSkinsFan]

It's too much to ask that they CONTRIBUTE? Why? Noone said anybody needs to be Randy Moss, but there IS evidence that rookies can come in and succeed right away. Why are you apologizers coddling these guys? There is a problem if they cannot help us right now. Something went wrong. Not to say that it can't be turned around, but I don't think the "They're rookies" is a sufficient excuse anymore. That's all I'm saying. Too much evidence to the contrary from OTHER rookies on OTHER teams.


Malcom Kelly caught a 3rd down past to convert for the first. We only converted on like 3 or 4 3rd downs plays in the Saints game. That's a contribution right there. Desean Jackson is in every play for the Eagles. Our rookies have not seen the field much these 2 games. Zorn said in his press conference that DT actually ran some really good routes down the field andwas open at time. JC went elsewhere with the football. Why don't you wait until we get further into the season before you say our rookies haven't contributed this season. Zorn hasn't worked them into a large part of the offense. With Thrash down for a little while, now we'll get a chance to see the rookies in some extended action. We won the Saints game and JC threw for 300+ yards. It doesn't matter who gets the catches, as long as we win.

[Mooka]

Because Thomas and Kelly have both had injuries and we have one of the worst passing offenses in the NFL.

DeSean Jackson is healthy and Philly has one of the best passing offenses in the NFL. (with a healthy McNabb)

[Oldskool]

Who needs rookies when Santana is putting up the number's he's putting up so far?

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. The Saints started a rookie at CB and were missing a starting safety. :2cents:

[Fifty Gut]

Devin Thomas came from an offense that asked him to run no more than 3 or 4 routes... 3 or 4 routes. Expect a steep learning curve.

Malcom Kelly can't stay healthy. Fred Davis is ahead of both of them playbook wise and finally saw the field in Week 2.

It's early. I expect all three to be major contributors by year's end. Our offense is going to grow week by week and hopefully we have a finished product in time to compete in December/January.

[redskins55]

I believe Zorn said in is presser yesterday that Thomas needed to fine tune his route running down field. Kelly sprained his ankle Sunday.. I don't believe there's anything wrong with us.. it's them!

One final thought. Jackson committed one of the most bone headed plays in football history last night when he tossed the ball away before crossing the goal line. If he wasn't so eager to celebrate he would've scored a TD. So even he has alot of growing to do as a NFL receiver..