R U patriotic? You need to pay more in taxes!!

[aREDSKIN]

WASHINGTON - Democratic vice presidential candidate Joe Biden said Thursday that paying more in taxes is the patriotic thing to do for wealthier Americans. The Republican campaign for president calls the tax increases their Democratic opponents propose "painful" instead of patriotic.
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Under the economic plan proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama, people earning more than $250,000 a year would pay more in taxes while those earning less — the vast majority of American taxpayers — would receive a tax cut.

"We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people," Biden said in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."

Noting that wealthier Americans would indeed pay more, Biden said: "It's time to be patriotic ... time to jump in, time to be part of the deal, time to help get America out of the rut."

Republican presidential candidate John McCain released a television ad Thursday charging that Obama would increase the size of the federal government amid an economic crisis. Contending that "a big government casts a big shadow on us all," the ad features the image of a shadow slowly covering a sleeping baby as it exaggerates the reach of the Obama tax proposal.

"Obama and his liberal congressional allies want a massive government, billions in spending increases, wasteful pork," the ad says. "And we would pay — painful income taxes, skyrocketing taxes on life savings, electricity and home heating oil. Can your family afford that?"


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080918/ap_on_el_pr/biden_taxes

[Tulane Skins Fan]

If anyone can tell me, right now, the difference they paid in taxes between bill clinton and w. bush, I'd be shocked.

[Burgundy Burner]

If anyone can tell me, right now, the difference they paid in taxes between bill clinton and w. bush, I'd be shocked.

Yeah, I know the difference.

[Midnight Judges]

Call me crazy but I do think it's patriotic to make sacrifices for your country in a time of war.

[Coooleeey]

Call me crazy but I do think it's patriotic to make sacrifices for your country in a time of war.

Dude, this has nothing to do with war. It has everything to do with the typical democratic socialist agenda.

[Midnight Judges]

Dude, this has nothing to do with war. It has everything to do with the typical democratic socialist agenda.

Two questions: Is there any relation at all between spending and taxes? Did your Republican party cut spending when they had control of the House, Senate and White House?

[Smoot Point Really]

"We want to take money and put it back in the pocket of middle-class people," Biden said in an interview on ABC's "Good Morning America."

The most telling line of this whole story... We want to "TAKE" money... This is so fundamentally evil.

[Smoot Point Really]

Dude, this has nothing to do with war. It has everything to do with the typical democratic socialist agenda.

Your first sentence is incorrect... It has everything to do with CLASS war... :)

[Tulane Skins Fan]

The most telling line of this whole story... We want to "TAKE" money... This is so fundamentally evil.

and give it to americans was the next line.

[Smoot Point Really]

and give it to americans was the next line.

Your point? It's still evil. Didn't your mother/father teach you that it isn't moral to take from others?

Regardless, it isn't exactly a given that this money will go in the 'pockets of milddle-class Americans' if you look at Obama's Global Poverty Act.

[Midnight Judges]

Your point? It's still evil. Didn't your mother/father teach you that it isn't moral to take from others?

Regardless, it isn't exactly a given that this money will go in the 'pockets of milddle-class Americans' if you look at Obama's Global Poverty Act.

TYpe B/Type A wannabe

[aREDSKIN]

From those according to the abilities to those according to their needs, is that what Biden is saying????

[Skinz4Life12]

we need burgold to get involved in this conversation

[sleazye]

This is one of the dumbest things Biden could have said.

Anything that reminds voters of Mondale's promise to raise taxes is a terrible politcal move.

[Thiebear]

Is there any evidence that Mr. Biden has paid more than is required of him on his income tax forms as he made more than the 250k a year? I would just like to see the percentages is all. here it is:

1998
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $215,432 ($136,700 - Joe Biden's Senate salary, $17,800 - Joe Biden's teaching job, according to previously released financial disclosure forms)
# Alternative Minimum Tax: $0
# Deductions: $20,195 in state/local/real estate taxes; $52,065 home mortgage interest from Sun National Bank, Wilmington, Del.; $195 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $4,604 from various sources, the two largest being the U.S. Treasury ($3,220) and the State of Delaware ($1,100)

1999
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $210,797 ($49,769 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $136,700 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $14,764 in state/local/real estate taxes; $35,875 home mortgage interest; $120 "Gifts to Charity"
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also donated $2,000 in speaking honoraria to charity)

2000
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $219,953 ($141,300 - Joe Biden's Senate salary, $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job, according to previously released financial disclosure forms)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $15,085 in state/local/real estate taxes; $38,123 home mortgage interest; $360 "Gifts to Charity"
# Capital Gains: -$1 (sold 8 shares of Compaq for $214, cost basis of $215)
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also donated $2,000 in speaking honoraria to charity)

2001
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $220,712 ($145,100 - Joe Biden's Senate salary, $19,133 - Joe Biden's teaching job, according to previously released financial disclosure forms)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $15,574 in state/local/real estate taxes; $38,753 home mortgage interest; $360 "Gifts to Charity"

2002
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $227,811 ($58,124 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $21,867 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $147,534 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $16,044 in state/local/real estate taxes; $37,373 home mortgage interest; $260 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $30 from various sources

2003
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $231,375 ($58,672 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $151,964 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $16,834 in state/local/real estate taxes; $39,790 home mortgage interest; $260 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $21 from various sources
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also donated $800 in honoraria from Bill Maher's show to charity)

2004
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $234,271 ($58,078 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $155,165 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $0
# Deductions: $17,333 in state/local/real estate taxes; $32,036 home mortgage interest; $380 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $129 from various sources
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also donated $1,000 in honoraria from Turner Classic Movies show to charity)

2005
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $321,379 ($81,250 from "Sterling Lord Literistics"; $60,509 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $159,031 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $1,299
# Deductions: $23,573 in state/local/real estate taxes; $35,629 home mortgage interest; $380 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $89 from various sources

2006
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $248,459 ($66,204 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $161,675 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $1,158
# Deductions: $21,790 in state/local/real estate taxes; $38,724 home mortgage interest; $380 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $80 from various sources
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also donated $800 in honoraria from Bill Maher's show to charity)

2007
Joseph R. and Jill T. Biden joint tax return
# Total income: $319,853 ($71,000 income from royalties from his book; $66,546 - Jill Biden's teaching job; $20,500 - Joe Biden's teaching job; $161,708 - Joe Biden's Senate salary)
# AMT: $2,721
# Deductions: $26,516 in state/local/real estate taxes; $38,712 home mortgage interest; $995 "Gifts to Charity"
# Interest: $99 from various sources
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also received a $112,500 book advance from Random House and he donated $1,025 in honoraria from TV personalities David Letterman and Bill Maher to charity)

[Peeping Wizard]

Dear Joe,

Mike Dukakis tried this tactic 24 years ago.

I didn't work well for him.

Whatever you are selling, I'm not buying it.

[Burgundy Burner]

Sheeeesh. Just looking at Biden's income and his charitable contributions. That's pathetic.

[hockeysc23]

This is just wrong. I would techincally "benefit" from Obama's tax plan changes but I am not going to vote for him.

It's not right to take more from someone just because they make more. I don't care how they got their money its theirs and its not the gov'ts right to ask for more because we want to give more programs to someone else.

[Midnight Judges]

This is just wrong. I would techincally "benefit" from Obama's tax plan changes but I am not going to vote for him.

It's not right to take more from someone just because they make more. I don't care how they got their money its theirs and its not the gov'ts right to ask for more because we want to give more programs to someone else.

I'm going to assume that by "take more" you mean in terms of percentages and that you don't think poor people and rich people should pay a flat fee of $10,000 per year in taxes.

But a percentage based income tax system already "takes more" from people who earn more even if everyone pays 25% (25% of $50,000 = $12,500 vs. 25% of 50,000,000 = $12,500,000). According to your post, this is not right.

But even if two people are in the same percentage tax bracket, they might be paying very different amounts. Say one of them has a $400,000 mortgage and the other guy doesn't. The first guy could be deducting the interest, in a sense, paying thousands less per year in tax dollars simply because he is a home owner.

You do realize rich people also have ways of taking advantages of loopholes to a larger extent than most people-to the point where many rich people end up paying around 22% income tax, not 35%.

There are billionaires who pay 13%.

Surely you also realize rich people get more out of our system for their tax dollars in terms of law enforcement, use of our courts, influence in Washington, etc.

My point is, it's complicated. Simple anecdotes are an oversimplification that do not accurately reflect what is fair in our tax system.

[Special K]

Yes, let's equate wealth redistribution with patriotism. You go first Biden.

[sleazye]

As I said before, this is the stupidest thing he could have said while on the campaign trail.

However, realistically with the debt our country is in, with a war costing billions of dollars a month, and our government enacting corporate welfare buyouts, what would any logical person expect we do to cover our costs?

It can't all be peaches and cream, but a candidate saying as much is political poison.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

This whole thing is hilarious. The idea that paying a higher percentage, taxwise simply because an individual has been successful is ridiculous. The idea that it's PATRIOTIC is even more ridiculous. So ridiculous it's nauseating. The only way that paying more simply because you've been successful is Patriotic is if you're a Communist or a Socialist. So which is Biden?

On the topic of what the tax system should be....

Very simple. Flat 10% tax on all "original" income. That is, income from a source you didn't put money into to begin with. So, paychecks would be taxed but investments, property, etc... would not be. There would be NO deductions. The tax money would be the FIRST thing taken from a paycheck.

[Redskins Diehard]

Call me crazy but I do think it's patriotic to make sacrifices for your country in a time of war.


you forgot to mention the part about only the people making 250k should be patriotic

[Kilmer17]

It's taken out of context of course. But it was a STUPID thing to say. And it will be used against them.

Such is the world of "100 years in Iraq" politics.

[artmonkforHOF]

That is the way it should be. When will rich people realize they would not be able to have the wealth they do without the work of middle to lower class? When you make more money, you should be paying more taxes (in total) than a lower income family.

I dont know how the tax system in America works now, but we here have a pretty simple system that takes care of all our needs AND has enough money to cover our health care. 15% on the first $37,885, 22% on the next $37,884, 26% on the next $47,415 (up to $123,184) and 29% on any amount over $123,184. Then the provinces have their own tax rates, usually ranging from 5-11% for different income amounts.

Now not the best type of tax system for those who want to make millions of dollars every year, but then again if you live in a country that allows you to make that much money, shouldn't you be greatful of that? or at the very least give more tax money for the selfish reason of securing future income? just a though.

[81artmonk]

This is exactly why they suck!! First, it's a fact that the majority of wealthy americans have that wealth due to work and not lottery or inheritance.

Steve jobes built his empire from the ground up. Microsoft was built by hard work. So why should they pay more in taxes than anyone else??

Fact is they already do. 86% of all federal income taxes are paid by the top 25% of income earners.

I don't understand anyway, why it's the riches job to give away thier wealth in order to help others. So they should be punished becasue they make more money than anyone of us?? Doesn't sound fair.

[hockeysc23]

I'm going to assume that by "take more" you mean in terms of percentages and that you don't think poor people and rich people should pay a flat fee of $10,000 per year in taxes.

But a percentage based income tax system already "takes more" from people who earn more even if everyone pays 25% (25% of $50,000 = $12,500 vs. 25% of 50,000,000 = $12,500,000). According to your post, this is not right.

But even if two people are in the same percentage tax bracket, they might be paying very different amounts. Say one of them has a $400,000 mortgage and the other guy doesn't. The first guy could be deducting the interest, in a sense, paying thousands less per year in tax dollars simply because he is a home owner.

You do realize rich people also have ways of taking advantages of loopholes to a larger extent than most people-to the point where many rich people end up paying around 22% income tax, not 35%.

There are billionaires who pay 13%.

Surely you also realize rich people get more out of our system for their tax dollars in terms of law enforcement, use of our courts, influence in Washington, etc.

My point is, it's complicated. Simple anecdotes are an oversimplification that do not accurately reflect what is fair in our tax system.

Ok 1. I am for a flat tax with no deductions what so ever. That way everyone does pay the same "amount".

2. I love how you think rich people get more for their tax dollars than poor people. Do most rich people use the public schools? Do they drive their cars on more streets? Do they call police or fire departments more often? That is an absurd comment.

The fact is it makes no sense to take more money away from the people that put the money into the economy. The rich and business owners that hire and employee people that generate more income for others should be penalized because they are doing well.

This is America where people have the right to strive for greatness not be penalized and have to support those that don't.

[alexey]

Silly liberals just dont get that patriotism is all about lapel pins.

[Oldskool]

Every dictator says the same thing as they take your possessions away; " You're doing a great service for your country. It's for the best".

So Joey Sunshine, Barry O and the left want more of "their" money back and claim Patriotism? I claim Horse****.

[Hubbs]

R U? O rly?

[Midnight Judges]

Ok 1. I am for a flat tax with no deductions what so ever. That way everyone does pay the same "amount".


You mean percentage, not amount.

Flat tax will never be implemented, you might as well argue for unicorns.



2. I love how you think rich people get more for their tax dollars than poor people. Do most rich people use the public schools? Do they drive their cars on more streets? Do they call police or fire departments more often? That is an absurd comment.


Rich people do benefit more from our system across the board. If you believe in flat tax you also believe rich people should pay more.



The fact is it makes no sense to take more money away from the people that put the money into the economy.

So middle class folks don't spend money? If you give them a tax cut instead of rich people, do you think they put it under a matress?


The rich and business owners that hire and employee people that generate more income for others should be penalized because they are doing well.


Why don't you ask yourself that, you support flat tax. You think rich people should pay more money than poor people.


This is America where people have the right to strive for greatness not be penalized and have to support those that don't

Americans do not have a right to not pay taxes. If uber rich folks have their taxes increased so they are paying a net 30%, they will be just fine. In 1960 the top income tax bracket was 91%. We are nowhere near historical highs or confiscatory levels.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

That is the way it should be. When will rich people realize they would not be able to have the wealth they do without the work of middle to lower class? When you make more money, you should be paying more taxes (in total) than a lower income family.

When will you COMMUNISTS in Canada realize that your government is raping you both financially and morally? When will you wake up and realize that penalizing successful people in order to support those who don't deserve anything is stupid beyond all reason.


I dont know how the tax system in America works now, but we here have a pretty simple system that takes care of all our needs AND has enough money to cover our health care. 15% on the first $37,885, 22% on the next $37,884, 26% on the next $47,415 (up to $123,184) and 29% on any amount over $123,184. Then the provinces have their own tax rates, usually ranging from 5-11% for different income amounts.

Your system is a joke. It steals excessive amounts of money from certain people to redistribute it to those who don't deserve it to begin with. You folks have allowed your government to take over your lives. That's insane so far as I'm concerned.


Now not the best type of tax system for those who want to make millions of dollars every year, but then again if you live in a country that allows you to make that much money, shouldn't you be greatful of that? or at the very least give more tax money for the selfish reason of securing future income? just a though.

NO. The government isn't what made these people successful. THEIR OWN WORK is what made them successful. The government is stealing money from them to pay for illegal and unconstitutional programs to support people who don't deserve to be supported. There is NOTHING positive about that sort of system so far as I'm concerned.

[Oldskool]

You mean percentage, not amount.

Flat tax will never be implemented, you might as well argue for unicorns.


Says the liberals. Flat tax is the only way that this country will ever have fairness in taxation. Until then we'll continue this class warfare bull****.



Rich people do benefit more from our system across the board. If you believe in flat tax you also believe rich people should pay more.

Its not about rich people paying more or less, its about fairness. And the top tier do pay more in percentage than you do. :2cents:


So middle class folks don't spend money? If you give them a tax cut instead of rich people, do you think they put it under a matress?

When given a rebate or a tax cut, no one sits on it no matter what social or economic strata they are in.


Americans do not have a right to not pay taxes. If uber rich folks have their taxes increased so they are paying a net 30%, they will be just fine. In 1960 the top income tax bracket was 91%. We are nowhere near historical highs or confiscatory levels.

The government also has to be responsible with their taxation and not tax for the sake of taxing. Over taxation can be as harmful, if not more so, than having no money in the coffers.

[helptheSKINS]

The sad thing here is most liberals either don't realize or ignore the simple fact that over taxing the rich will lead to less jobs. The $250k number may seem large to most but A LOT of small business owners fall under that number. By taking more money out of their pockets, they have less money to pay employees. It's incredibly simple and cannot be denied.

Patriotic was a VERY stupid thing to say when it comes to paying taxes. In context or not.

Obama's economic policies are horrible. He still hasn't explained how his $90 billion or even $200 billion in new taxes from the rich will pay for $1 trillion in new programs. And of course lets not forget the brilliant plan of increasing the capital gains tax which has proved everytime to do the exact opposite of doing what Obama says it will. Let's discourage people from investing, that will help the economy.

[artmonkforHOF]

When will you COMMUNISTS in Canada realize that your government is raping you both financially and morally? When will you wake up and realize that penalizing successful people in order to support those who don't deserve anything is stupid beyond all reason.
When will you realize that the American tax system is the only one of its kind in the world for developed nations? I pay a lot in taxes but I also get a lot for it. Free health care for one. That is vitally important. How is a country suppose to prosper if the people are sick and can't afford to get better?


Your system is a joke. It steals excessive amounts of money from certain people to redistribute it to those who don't deserve it to begin with. You folks have allowed your government to take over your lives. That's insane so far as I'm concerned.
Well it seems to work for us and we dont have trillions of dollars of debt, we arent seeing social program shut down. You would be hard pressed to find a Canadian who thinks the tax system doesn't work, even the very wealthy. Spending of the tax dollars is an entierly separate issue. (yes we have dumb politicians here too). We all realize that the strength of our counrty is it's people and if they are unhappy, or unable to be productive then we all suffer. If everyone paid the same dollar amount of taxes, it would put too much burden on lower income people, so the rates are spread amongst those who can afford to pay. How would the CEO of McDonald's be able to draw a multi million dollar salary if his $7/hour cashier can't afford to buy gas becasue she needs to pay the same amount of tax as the CEO? That to me is insane.

NO. The government isn't what made these people successful. THEIR OWN WORK is what made them successful. The government is stealing money from them to pay for illegal and unconstitutional programs to support people who don't deserve to be supported. There is NOTHING positive about that sort of system so far as I'm concerned. I agree that these peole bmade their money on their own hard work but they would not have been afforded the opportunities to do so if they lived in another country. If they did not livei n a free country taht allowed them to pursue their dreams they would never be able to attain them.

Well Im off now, to check on how large Canada's SURPLUS (thats the opposite of a defecit BTW) and maybe I will go to a hospital and get prescreened for cancer, MS and Lukemia FOR FREE. And while I'm there, if they find anything else wrong with me they will fix that FOR FREE.

[Popeman38]

Well Im off now, to check on how large Canada's SURPLUS (thats the opposite of a defecit BTW) and maybe I will go to a hospital and get prescreened for cancer, MS and Lukemia FOR FREE. And while I'm there, if they find anything else wrong with me they will fix that FOR FREE.You keep telling yourself that it is free. I pay less for my health care than you do, I guarantee that.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

When will you realize that the American tax system is the only one of its kind in the world for developed nations? I pay a lot in taxes but I also get a lot for it. Free health care for one. That is vitally important. How is a country suppose to prosper if the people are sick and can't afford to get better?

I know the American system is the only one of it's kind in the world. The point of the American system is NOT for the government to give the people things. In fact it's the TOTAL OPPOSITE. It is the American people who are supposed to be doing for themselves, not looking to the government to do things for them.

Those people who are sick and can't afford to get better DIE. Then they're no longer an issue. Besides, most of them deserve what they get because they're in the position they are due to their own issues.



Well it seems to work for us and we dont have trillions of dollars of debt, we arent seeing social program shut down. You would be hard pressed to find a Canadian who thinks the tax system doesn't work, even the very wealthy.

Of course not. You've all bought into the Communist system so why would you complain. You've sold your souls to the government and if it wasn't there you wouldn't be able to take care of yourselves. Not the sort of society I have an interest in visiting, never mind living in.


Spending of the tax dollars is an entierly separate issue. (yes we have dumb politicians here too). We all realize that the strength of our counrty is it's people and if they are unhappy, or unable to be productive then we all suffer. If everyone paid the same dollar amount of taxes, it would put too much burden on lower income people, so the rates are spread amongst those who can afford to pay. How would the CEO of McDonald's be able to draw a multi million dollar salary if his $7/hour cashier can't afford to buy gas becasue she needs to pay the same amount of tax as the CEO? That to me is insane.

It's a matter of PERCENTAGES, not amounts. There is no reason why that $7 an hour cashier shouldn't be paying the same PERCENTAGE of their salary in taxes as the $7 Million a year CEO does. Whether it's 5% or 10% or some other figure, what makes it appropriate to charge the CEO a higher percentage than the cashier?


I agree that these peole made their money on their own hard work but they would not have been afforded the opportunities to do so if they lived in another country. If they did not live in a free country that allowed them to pursue their dreams they would never be able to attain them.

Those people are making their money without the help of the government. In fact many of them have had to fight the government every step of the way to become successful. The US Government is not an assistance to private business' and their owners, so why the hell would those people want to give the US Government any more of their money than absolutely necessary. Especially when they know it's going to be given to people who in no way deserve any of it.


Well Im off now, to check on how large Canada's SURPLUS (thats the opposite of a defecit BTW) and maybe I will go to a hospital and get prescreened for cancer, MS and Lukemia FOR FREE. And while I'm there, if they find anything else wrong with me they will fix that FOR FREE.

Given the option of living in that sort of system or dying of one of those diseases.... I'D DIE. My soul is worth infinitely more than my body is, and buying into that sort of system is fatal to the soul so far as I'm concerned.

[Midnight Judges]

Says the liberals. Flat tax is the only way that this country will ever have fairness in taxation. Until then we'll continue this class warfare bull****.


lol @ class warfare. Is it class warfare when the rich get huge tax cuts and the middle class gets nothing? Is it class warfare when the middle class's median income goes down for the first time in modern history as a direct result of economic policies?



Its not about rich people paying more or less, its about fairness. And the top tier do pay more in percentage than you do. :2cents:


Don't presume to know what bracket I'm in guy.



When given a rebate or a tax cut, no one sits on it no matter what social or economic strata they are in.


Exactly. So quit acting like giving tax cuts to only rich people is good for the country.


The government also has to be responsible with their taxation and not tax for the sake of taxing. Over taxation can be as harmful, if not more so, than having no money in the coffers

Your Republican President and his Republican congress turned a surplus into a deficit. They spent like drunken sailors. We're going to pay for it sooner or later. It is truely laughable when Republicans talk about taxes as if they are completely unrelated to all the programs and wars Republican wanted.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Your Republican President and his Republican congress turned a surplus into a deficit. They spent like drunken sailors. We're going to pay for it sooner or later. It is truely laughable when Republicans talk about taxes as if they are completely unrelated to all the programs and wars Republican wanted.

MJ, the difference between Dems and Republicans when it comes to spending..... generally Republicans want to spend money on items that the Federal Government is legally allowed to, under the US Constitution; whereas generally Democrats want to spend that money on unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral social programs.

[Smoot Point Really]

I'm of the opinion that even a "flat tax" is not fair, but it is MORE fair... A tax that combines flat tax and also use tax would be far more fair... Those who take more from the Federal Government should pay more for the Federal Government. Everyone should pay the same for defense, but should everyone pay the same for federal funding of public schools (if they send their children to private school)? Just a thought... Anyway, Biden was an arse... Those who are defending him and are routing for Obama should stop. The more this guy looks stupid, the closer you are to having HRC as VP and then the Democrats will probably win in a landslide in November.

[artmonkforHOF]

You keep telling yourself that it is free. I pay less for my health care than you do, I guarantee that.

yeah, maybe now, but what about when you get cancer? or you get old and things start falling apart at a rapid pace? What about the quality of care? the mandate for Canadian doctors is to provide the best care possible, American doctors, do it as cheap as you can, and if they need to come back for a second visit, all the better, that means they make more money! Can you go see any doctor you want? I can.

[hockeysc23]

yeah, maybe now, but what about when you get cancer? or you get old and things start falling apart at a rapid pace? What about the quality of care? the mandate for Canadian doctors is to provide the best care possible, American doctors, do it as cheap as you can, and if they need to come back for a second visit, all the better, that means they make more money! Can you go see any doctor you want? I can.

But it is not up to the gov't to make sure you are properly taken care of. You are your own person you can make healthy and smart decision to take care of yourself.

The fact of the matter is the way Biden said this was basically the same as if I am walking down the street and don't have enough money for lunch. Its ok the rich person next to me is obligated to help me out. Nevermind that maybe I didn't save money or its my fault. We can just "TAKE" from someone to give to someone else cuz they can afford it. :doh:

[MEANDWARF]

Joe Biden has actually became the comic relief for this election campaign. I was wondering why Obama chose him.

[Smoot Point Really]

I think if States want to provide Health Care, then that's great. Federal Government shouldn't be doing all this. Federal Government shouldn't be "taking money" and "putting it in the pockets of middle-class America"....

[Mass_SkinsFan]

yeah, maybe now, but what about when you get cancer? or you get old and things start falling apart at a rapid pace? What about the quality of care? the mandate for Canadian doctors is to provide the best care possible, American doctors, do it as cheap as you can, and if they need to come back for a second visit, all the better, that means they make more money! Can you go see any doctor you want? I can.

Since when has health care been a RIGHT? It's a PRIVILEGE, nothing more. If you've got the $$$ you should get the services. If not, too damn bad for you.

[artmonkforHOF]

Since when has health care been a RIGHT? It's a PRIVILEGE, nothing more. If you've got the $$$ you should get the services. If not, too damn bad for you.

It's a right in my country and many others through out the world, a privilege in yours.

[Sarge]

It's coming kiddies. Just keep drinking the Kool Aid and telling yourselves "It'll only be the "rich" they tax"

[MissU28]

Rich people do benefit more from our system across the board. If you believe in flat tax you also believe rich people should pay more.



Yeah they pay more money, but it's a percentage of their income and the middle class is paying the same portion of their income. If a rich person made $250,000 a year with a 5% tax and the middle class made $50,000 a year with the same 5% tax, they are both paying a proportionate, FAIR tax. I am all for a flat tax.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

It's a right in my country and many others through out the world, a privilege in yours.

Which is part of why there's nothing and nobody outside of this country that I feel has any value. You folks in the rest of the world wouldn't comprehend the concepts of Right and Wrong or Moral vs. Immoral if someone engraved them on a 75 Kiloton NUKE and dropped it on your capital.

I hope you enjoy this life and that your health care system makes it a long one, because I don't believe you're going to enjoy the next life very much at all.

[alexey]

Yeah they pay more money, but it's a percentage of their income and the middle class is paying the same portion of their income. If a rich person made $250,000 a year with a 5% tax and the middle class made $50,000 a year with the same 5% tax, they are both paying a proportionate, FAIR tax. I am all for a flat tax.
Let's say living expenses cost $20,000 a year. Two hypothetical scenarios:

1) Everybody pays a set amount, let's say $10,000 a year.

2) Everybody pays 5%, but takes a deduction of $20,000. Taxes are calculated as 5% of (salary - $20,000)

Is your proposal more fair than both of these? If so, how?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Let's say living expenses cost $20,000 a year. Two hypothetical scenarios:

1) Everybody pays a set amount, let's say $10,000 a year.

2) Everybody pays 5%, but takes a deduction of $20,000. Taxes are calculated as 5% of (salary - $20,000)

Is your proposal more fair than both of these? If so, how?

I would suggest that the true Flat Tax proposal IS more fair.

Scenario #1: I'm not even going to run the numbers for the $10K a year flat payment equation. There are enough people out there who make less than $30K ($20K living expenses and $10K taxes) that the scenario is just pretty much impossible just on its basic merits.

Scenario #2: The $50K a year guy ends up paying $1500 in taxes once you take the $20K deduction. So in reality he's paying taxes as though he made $30K. The $250K a year guy ends up paying $11,500 in taxes (on $230K). Each of them ends up saving $1000, which is a significantly larger percentage of what the $50K guy paid than it is of what the $250K guy paid. That's almost a 50% reduction for one guy and an 8% reduction for the $250K guy; which is blatantly unfair. Additionally, there still have to be tax forms and an April 15th deadline to get everything in to the IRS.

Now in the Flat Tax - Zero Deduction scenario that I've presented the $50K guy pays $2500 in taxes. Add that to his $20K cost of living and he's left with a still rather decent $27,500. The $250K guy pays $12,500 which leaves him with $217,500. Both individuals have paid their fair share and neither has to fill out any tax forms in April or worry about an accountant screwing things up for him. Sounds like a much better deal to me. Especially since I'm near that $50K bracket and I can guarantee you that I paid CONSIDERABLY more than $2500 in federal taxes last year.

[Fred Jones]

I don't have any problem with the wealthy paying what they were paying under Clinton. They don't have to pay what they were paying under Reagan, however. The wealthy can afford to pay. That is why we call them wealthy. Don't overtax of course, but they can pay.

I always love the take from the rich give to the poor argument. I also don't like fiscal conservatives. How about fiscal responsibility. We shouldn't be handing money out on the other side of the social spectrum. Immigrants can pay for their own hospital care. The homeless can get back to work. I don't have any problem with social care to get people back on their feet. But, when they are ready they get back to work.

Just look at the current economic crises. When foreign investment and such started pulling back, greedy US corporations just doing business as usual instead of cutting back. When CEOs, executives and such were getting fat paychecks they didn't deserve. And so on and so on. No need to state what has already been said.

However, I said fiscal responsibility. I believe it was under Clinton that got the ball rolling on the housing market. I am sorry, but not everyone can own a home and not everyone can own the large estate that many want. I would like to have a bigger home, but I couldn't afford it and didn't extend myself to try and get it. For the people that overextended, let them fail.

For the past eight years the administration has spent and spent without consequence. Well, the money has to come from somewhere and it wasn't taxes because he kept cutting them. He simply put off bill paying for future generations.

And why not social security. I think it was a great idea. However, the system broke back in the sixties or so when the government started dipping into the fund. The fund would be stable if we never touched it. In a sense the social security taxes people have been paying were just another tax for the Federal Government to spend.

People complain about taxes, but want their services, their country protected from bad people and the ability to live in a free country, own their own home and live in relative safety. Well, that costs money.

And look, the free market system at work. The Federal Government bailing out corporations because they failed. People complain that the rich shouldn't be taxed any more. Well, why the heck is my tax dollars saving a number of their companies from failure. I don't see their family fortunes failing. They were getting rich why their companies were failing and Bush was giving them tax cuts.

[Fred Jones]

In no way shape of form am I a tax guy. However, the little that I have read states that the flat tax would have to be a lot higher then 10 percent for the Fed Gov to get their money. I have read a lot more.

[sleazye]

I hope you enjoy this life and that your health care system makes it a long one, because I don't believe you're going to enjoy the next life very much at all.


Do you honestly believe that a person who lives in a country which provides free health care to its citizens has condemned him/herself to hell?

If so, please explain.

[MurrayH81]

NO. The government isn't what made these people successful. THEIR OWN WORK is what made them successful. The government is stealing money from them to pay for illegal and unconstitutional programs to support people who don't deserve to be supported. There is NOTHING positive about that sort of system so far as I'm concerned.

I hear what you are saying MSF, and I agree with it to a certain extent. Hard work, inventive ideas and the like do drive wealth, and they should.

However, the people that work hard or are innovative receive an unequal distribution of government services, and by that token, they should also pay for those services. Let's face it, if Bill Gates and Joe Blow call about a prowler simultaneously, 10 times out of 10, the police will respond faster and with more/better personnel for Bill G, than they would for Joe B. The same applies nearly universally.

An argument can also be made that wealthy people owe it to themselves to support more than their fair share tax wise. To keep you from going bald from scratching your head on this on, my point is that (especially pertinent for business people) that wealthy people would not have made any money in business if there were no less wealthy people to buy their products, ideas, etc. So they have a vested interest in keeping this country going foward. Let's face reality, if the only people who are left in America are wealthy enterprenaurs, inventors, and merchants/bankers, they will no longer be successful or particularly wealthy, because they won't be making any more money. Why would Bill Gates need a loan, or purchase anything since he can make it himself?

I will agree that it is downright silly to link patriotism with higher taxes.

I will also stipulate that the next Administration will either a) raise taxes, or b) go into enough debt to lower the countries borrower rating, and ensure the eventual collapse of our entire country. This is without any additional spending being approved by the next Administration or Congress.

[Special K]

You folks in the rest of the world wouldn't comprehend the concepts of Right and Wrong or Moral vs. Immoral if someone engraved them on a 75 Kiloton NUKE and dropped it on your capital.
So helping someone with basic health care needs is "immoral" now? Was Jesus immoral (since you basically told the other poster he's going to hell, I presume you believe in the Bible)?

[Smoot Point Really]

So helping someone with basic health care needs is "immoral" now? Was Jesus immoral (since you basically told the other poster he's going to hell, I presume you believe in the Bible)?

Let's not invoke Jesus here... He didn't compel or coerce people to pay for the health care of others. A more meaningful example of patriotism according to Biden is "Robin Hood". :)

[MurrayH81]

MJ, the difference between Dems and Republicans when it comes to spending..... generally Republicans want to spend money on items that the Federal Government is legally allowed to, under the US Constitution; whereas generally Democrats want to spend that money on unconstitutional, illegal, and immoral social programs.

I don't think any politician or party qualifies in this way any longer. Maybe it was true in our father's time, or grandfathers, but both of the majority parties are now spending in the manner you relegate for Democrats.

Let's face it MSF, most of what the US Government does with tax money is un-Constitutional. Let's agree not to address immoral social programs, okay? Especially because there can be little agreement in our society as to the basis of morality (your morality is my atrocity and vice versa).

Again, any spending aside, where is the money to come from to pay for the debts incurred during this Administration. It certainly won't come poor people who have lost their homes, or their savings.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Do you honestly believe that a person who lives in a country which provides free health care to its citizens has condemned him/herself to hell?


So helping someone with basic health care needs is "immoral" now?

Socialism is immoral in every way, shape, manner and form it exists. That is my belief and there is nothing that will change it. National Healthcare is about as Socialist a concept as you can get. It's literally that simple in my mind. So yes, any individual who chooses to live in a country that promotes Socialized Healthcare carries that stain on their soul so far as I'm concerened.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I don't think any politician or party qualifies in this way any longer. Maybe it was true in our father's time, or grandfathers, but both of the majority parties are now spending in the manner you relegate for Democrats.

Unfortunately you're correct for the most part. Especially in the last eight years.


Let's face it MSF, most of what the US Government does with tax money is un-Constitutional.

Exactly. My guess is somewhere between 60-75% of the non-military expenditures of this government are un-Constitutional. If we could get rid of those budgetary items our balance sheet would look a lot better.


Again, any spending aside, where is the money to come from to pay for the debts incurred during this Administration. It certainly won't come poor people who have lost their homes, or their savings.

Part of it would come from the poor, who now pay nothing for the most part. Under my plan a lot more of it comes from the middle and upper classes who would no longer be able to shelter and hide income behind deductions and other things. THAT'S where the difference comes in.

[MurrayH81]

Socialism is immoral in every way, shape, manner and form it exists. That is my belief and there is nothing that will change it. National Healthcare is about as Socialist a concept as you can get. It's literally that simple in my mind. So yes, any individual who chooses to live in a country that promotes Socialized Healthcare carries that stain on their soul so far as I'm concerened.

MSF, you actually believe that a person born in a country that practices socialized healthcare is going to Hell?

Wow, that is highly unusual. Newborns are born every day in such situations, and by your definitiion, immediately relegated to Hell for surviving such a birth, or, at the very least, for not leaving their family and home behind and heading immediately for the US (illegally if need be) as soon as they can walk and read.

Is that really what you intend to say?

[Kunia5]

Clinton raised the highest marginal tax rate from 36% to 39% in the mid-nineties, remember? Gore had to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate to raise the rate.

That's exactly when the huge increase in millionaires started in this country. Stock market went up 20% a year. Gee, I guess "socialism" really works after all.

Clinton's socialistic policies lead to a budget surplus of $215 billion. Now we have a debt of $8 trillion. If you voted for Bush, now's the time to stay discretely silent, if you have any integrity at all.

[MissU28]

It's nice how some of you that make 50K a year talk about how it's the wealthy's "moral responsibility" to help out and pay more taxes. And how some of you generalize that CEO's and high-paid people were GIVEN the money and they didn't earn their salaries. While that is true in some instances, many of the rich people in this country got their money by hard work.

I think the tables would turn if YOU were the one who had worked so hard and made $250K+ every year and you were asked to pay more in taxes just because "the country is at war, you need to be ethical" or, "it's your duty to help the poor!" We're not living in Sherwood Forest, people, and you are not Robin Hood.

[Midnight Judges]

It's nice how some of you that make 50K a year talk about how it's the wealthy's "moral responsibility" to help out and pay more taxes. And how some of you generalize that CEO's and high-paid people were GIVEN the money and they didn't earn their salaries. While that is true in some instances, many of the rich people in this country got their money by hard work.

I think the tables would turn if YOU were the one who had worked so hard and made $250K+ every year and you were asked to pay more in taxes just because "the country is at war, you need to be ethical" or, "it's your duty to help the poor!" We're not living in Sherwood Forest, people, and you are not Robin Hood.

Did I miss the part of this thread where we were supposed to disclose our salaries?

[MissU28]

Did I miss the part of this thread where we were supposed to disclose our salaries?


Okay, I am ASSUMING the people saying that the rich should pay more are not "wealthy" in the $250K+ sense. If you make that much, my apologies. I used 50K as an average, as that is about what I make. Obviously most of you make more than that, but I was just using that as the "middle class" ground-zero.

[chipwhich]

Clinton raised the highest marginal tax rate from 36% to 39% in the mid-nineties, remember? Gore had to cast the tie-breaking vote in the Senate to raise the rate.

That's exactly when the huge increase in millionaires started in this country. Stock market went up 20% a year. Gee, I guess "socialism" really works after all.

Clinton's socialistic policies lead to a budget surplus of $215 billion. Now we have a debt of $8 trillion. If you voted for Bush, now's the time to stay discretely silent, if you have any integrity at all.

That is one of the silliest cause and effect statements of all time.

Do you really think raising taxes is what created wealth during the clinton era?

Heck lets just boost the marginal tax rate to 60% and make everyone wealthy. :doh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

MSF, you actually believe that a person born in a country that practices socialized healthcare is going to Hell?.....

....Is that really what you intend to say?

I believe the phrase "choose to live in a country...." was in my prior post. At the point they've reached an age where they can make a reasoned decision and choose to stay there, they're screwed so far as I'm concerned.

Now if you have any questions that can't be answered by basic common sense and reading comprehension please let me know.

[Kunia5]

It's nice how some of you that make 50K a year talk about how it's the wealthy's "moral responsibility" to help out and pay more taxes. And how some of you generalize that CEO's and high-paid people were GIVEN the money and they didn't earn their salaries. While that is true in some instances, many of the rich people in this country got their money by hard work.

I think the tables would turn if YOU were the one who had worked so hard and made $250K+ every year and you were asked to pay more in taxes just because "the country is at war, you need to be ethical" or, "it's your duty to help the poor!" We're not living in Sherwood Forest, people, and you are not Robin Hood.

Obama's talking about raising the rates by 3% for those making over $250K a year. Are you exaggerating when you say this will be a disaster for these people? I hope so; otherwise you aren't in touch with reality.

America's first tax rebellion was "Shay's Rebellion" in 1789. Farmers refused to pay taxes on their crops. George Washington sent in 30,000 troops to quell the revolt. The leaders were sentenced to death.

The Founding Fathers all agreed that taxation was part of American government. It was unanimous. You may not like it; but taxation is as old as America itself.

Very little has as much historical precedence as the government's right to extract taxes from YOU and ME, if it wants to.

[Heisenberg]

Okay, I am ASSUMING the people saying that the rich should pay more are not "wealthy" in the $250K+ sense. If you make that much, my apologies. I used 50K as an average, as that is about what I make. Obviously most of you make more than that, but I was just using that as the "middle class" ground-zero.


Oh give me a break, I know plenty of wealthy people who have no problem voting for Obama and potentially paying slightly more on there taxes if it helps to start to pay off our huge deficiit.

Hell, the richest guy in the country is backing Obama and has agreed that taxes needs to be raised somewhere due to the way things have been run and the deficit that has grown so outrageous it's almost laughable.

[Kunia5]

That is one of the silliest cause and effect statements of all time.

Do you really think raising taxes is what created wealth during the clinton era?

Heck lets just boost the marginal tax rate to 60% and make everyone wealthy. :doh:

I dunno, man. Can you prove it didn't? Kind of hard to prove a negative, isn't it.

One thing's for sure. It didn't cause the meltdown predicted ad nauseum by the Republican-majority Congress (foremost Newt Gingrich among them). They were wrong. Why should we trust them now?

[chipwhich]

Obama's talking about raising the rates by 3% for those making over $250K a year. Are you exaggerating when you say this will be a disaster for these people? I hope so; otherwise you aren't in touch with reality.

America's first tax rebellion was "Shay's Rebellion" in 1789. Farmers refused to pay taxes on their crops. George Washington sent in 30,000 troops to quell the revolt. The leaders were sentenced to death.

The Founding Fathers all agreed that taxation was part of American government. It was unanimous. You may not like it; but taxation is as old as America itself.

Very little has as much historical precedence as the government's right to extract taxes from YOU and ME, if it wants to.

Uhhhh Social Security tax up to 250K. Do you have any clue how this not only affects the employee but the employer as well? Read up on it and get back to me :D

[chipwhich]

Oh give me a break, I know plenty of wealthy people who have no problem voting for Obama and potentially paying slightly more on there taxes if it helps to start to pay off our huge deficiit.

Hell, the richest guy in the country is backing Obama and has agreed that taxes needs to be raised somewhere due to the way things have been run and the deficit that has grown so outrageous it's almost laughable.

In case you haven't done your research THERE IS NO REDUCTION IN OUR DEFICIT in Obamas plan.

[Special K]

Let's not invoke Jesus here... He didn't compel or coerce people to pay for the health care of others. A more meaningful example of patriotism according to Biden is "Robin Hood". :)
Why not invoke Jesus here? Did Jesus not say "The King will answer and say unto them 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me'" - Matthew 25:40. I would say that's compelling people to help others. In fact, I would say that can be extrapolated into compelling people to help the unfortunate with BASIC health care. I'm not talking about health care in general, I'm saying BASIC.

So yes, I think Jesus can very well be brought into this discussion b/c I'm trying to see how Christians (as I am assuming MSF is since he has no problem telling people the exact reasons for which they are going to hell) can rationalize openly telling less fortunate people in need of basic health care, "Whelp, you're screwed," which is something MSF has clearly stated.

BTW, yes, I believe basic and/or life-sustaining health care is a right of every individual this day in age and it is something government, along with private health agencies, should take some responsibility for.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

So yes, I think Jesus can very well be brought into this discussion b/c I'm trying to see how Christians (as I am assuming MSF is since he has no problem telling people the exact reasons for which they are going to hell) can rationalize openly telling less fortunate people in need of basic health care, "Whelp, you're screwed," which is something MSF has clearly stated.

Actually keeastman I'm a Pagan. However, to paraphrase a quasi-religious movie..... "I'm not THAT kind of Pagan."

[Sarge]

BTW, yes, I believe basic and/or life-sustaining health care is a right of every individual this day in age and it is something government, along with private health agencies, should take some responsibility for.

Why? And more importantly, why should I pay for your health care? That responsibility lies with the individual and IF the individual can't pay, then private health agencies

But for the government to take more money from me and my family to GIVE someone a freebie?

C'mon

[chipwhich]

I dunno, man. Can you prove it didn't? Kind of hard to prove a negative, isn't it.

One thing's for sure. It didn't cause the meltdown predicted ad nauseum by the Republican-majority Congress (foremost Newt Gingrich among them). They were wrong. Why should we trust them now?

What is there to prove or disprove.

You make a blanket false statement. Even a freshmen majoring in economy could tell you that.

[Kunia5]

Uhhhh Social Security tax up to 250K. Do you have any clue how this not only affects the employee but the employer as well? Read up on it and get back to me :D

The alternative being keep borrowing from the Chinese, I guess.

Is there any consensus anywhere in this country that difficult decisions are going to have to be made? I'm not hearing it from McCain, who wants to continue the Bush tax cuts.

When 30% of the budget goes to interest on the debt get back to me.

[chipwhich]

The alternative being keep borrowing from the Chinese, I guess.

Is there any consensus anywhere in this country that difficult decisions are going to have to be made? I'm not hearing it from McCain, who wants to continue the Bush tax cuts.

When 30% of the budget goes to interest on the debt get back to me.

Dude seriously. Obama and McCain BOTH aren't decreasing our deficit. They are both increasing it.

Wake up. Stop reading the headlines, and read the article.

[Heisenberg]

Dude seriously. Obama and McCain BOTH aren't decreasing our deficit. They are both increasing it.

Wake up. Stop reading the headlines, and read the article.



I would hope that BOTH will decrease it.


I'm quite sure Obama can start to decrease our deficit if he gets us out of Iraq and fights one war at a time.

[Special K]

Actually keeastman I'm a Pagan. However, to paraphrase a quasi-religious movie..... "I'm not THAT kind of Pagan."
Well then, that explains it. I got it now :D



Why? And more importantly, why should I pay for your health care? That responsibility lies with the individual and IF the individual can't pay, then private health agencies

But for the government to take more money from me and my family to GIVE someone a freebie?

C'mon
Well, I'm not talking about all health care here. And I'm not proposing to take more money from people. I think this can be paid for by cutting out these ridiculous pork projects, cutting out the abuse of and corruption in social welfare programs, and cutting spending in other areas...NOT by increasing taxes on the "wealthy" and "small businesses," I'm very much against that.

As far as why I think basic healthcare needs to be paid for by a collaboration of government and private entities? Well, the majority of it is a public health issue IMO, like helping to prevent and/or curb the outbreak of many illnesses. As far as life-sustaining, well, I guess I'm a softie when it comes to that.

[Kunia5]

Dude seriously. Obama and McCain BOTH aren't decreasing our deficit. They are both increasing it.

Wake up. Stop reading the headlines, and read the article.

I know about both plans. They've been repeated in every publication.

The only advantage of having McCain as President is that he will never get the Bush taxes renewed through the Democrat-dominated congress.

Divided government means fiscal sanity. Maximum tax rates will go back to 39%. The parties won't be able to agree on spending. The budget will move back towards surplus.

The fact that McCain will be irrelevant makes him attractive in that sense.

[MissU28]

Oh give me a break, I know plenty of wealthy people who have no problem voting for Obama and potentially paying slightly more on there taxes if it helps to start to pay off our huge deficiit.

Hell, the richest guy in the country is backing Obama and has agreed that taxes needs to be raised somewhere due to the way things have been run and the deficit that has grown so outrageous it's almost laughable.

Well obviously a lot of wealthy people don't care (I mean, look at all the celebrity Obama endorsements), but there are plenty of wealthy people that DO care. It's not the sum of money that they care about, it's the PRINCIPLE of the whole thing. If I were rich and I knew I was paying more money on taxes for the sole reason that I made more money, even if it WERE "morally right to help our country", I'd tell 'em to shove it.

But then again, I AM a heartless, selfish, cold republican;)

[chipwhich]

I would hope that BOTH will decrease it.


I'm quite sure Obama can start to decrease our deficit if he gets us out of Iraq and fights one war at a time.

You can HOPE all you want. The truth is in the real numbers. Neither candidate is reducing our deficit.

[chipwhich]

Divided government means fiscal sanity.



Well here is something we can agree on!

:cheers:

[Heisenberg]

Well obviously a lot of wealthy people don't care (I mean, look at all the celebrity Obama endorsements), but there are plenty of wealthy people that DO care. It's not the sum of money that they care about, it's the PRINCIPLE of the whole thing. If I were rich and I knew I was paying more money on taxes for the sole reason that I made more money, even if it WERE "morally right to help our country", I'd tell 'em to shove it.

But then again, I AM a heartless, selfish, cold republican;)



As stated in another thread, the goal of progressive tax isn't "wealth redistrubution".

[MissU28]

As stated in another thread, the goal of progressive tax isn't "wealth redistrubution".

You're right, that's Obama's goal.

[MurrayH81]

I believe the phrase "choose to live in a country...." was in my prior post. At the point they've reached an age where they can make a reasoned decision and choose to stay there, they're screwed so far as I'm concerned.

Now if you have any questions that can't be answered by basic common sense and reading comprehension please let me know.

Yes, you did use that phrase. Logically constructed, if someone choses to continue living post birth in that society (you said nothing about awareness of course, which was my, apparently too subtle, point). Since most life chooses to continue, any child born in one of those countries is therefore immediately cast into Hell in your opinion.

You certainly do have some strong opinions, and should be willing to logically carry them forward, even if that becomes difficult.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Yes, you did use that phrase. Logically constructed, if someone choses to continue living post birth in that society (you said nothing about awareness of course, which was my, apparently too subtle, point). Since most life chooses to continue, any child born in one of those countries is therefore immediately cast into Hell in your opinion.

You certainly do have some strong opinions, and should be willing to logically carry them forward, even if that becomes difficult.

Murray, apparently you're looking for a fight or an arguement this evening. Sorry, but I'm in too good of a mood to accomidate that request this evening.

I used the phrase "reasoned decision" with a purpose. Think a little bit on it, and you should be able to figure out why that was and what it means.

Have a nice evening.

[sleazye]

Murray, apparently you're looking for a fight or an arguement this evening. Sorry, but I'm in too good of a mood to accomidate that request this evening.

I used the phrase "reasoned decision" with a purpose. Think a little bit on it, and you should be able to figure out why that was and what it means.

Have a nice evening.


Sounds like MSF may have gotten laid tonight...

still you haven't really adressed the question that Murray and I posed to you.

If someone is patriotic and decides that they want to continue living in the country of their birth, and said country has a free health care system, then they are going to hell? (in your mind)

That being said, hope you at least got some nice info for the spank bank.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

still you haven't really adressed the question that Murray and I posed to you.

If someone is patriotic and decides that they want to continue living in the country of their birth, and said country has a free health care system, then they are going to hell? (in your mind)

I've answered it indirectly several times. If you truly need it answered directly...... YES, I do believe that any individual who willfully and knowledgeably chooses to live in a country with a socialized health care system, for whatever reason, has doomed their soul.

[Cdowwe]

Biden is an idiot. How does allowing the federal govt to steal more money that it needs ( I say this because they could get rid of alot of useless programs that they cant afford right now) make you a patriot? The funny thing was that as of the afternoon, CNN refused to post this story as to not make their crowd angry

[81artmonk]

You mean percentage, not amount.

Flat tax will never be implemented, you might as well argue for unicorns.



Rich people do benefit more from our system across the board. If you believe in flat tax you also believe rich people should pay more.



So middle class folks don't spend money? If you give them a tax cut instead of rich people, do you think they put it under a matress?



Why don't you ask yourself that, you support flat tax. You think rich people should pay more money than poor people.



Americans do not have a right to not pay taxes. If uber rich folks have their taxes increased so they are paying a net 30%, they will be just fine. In 1960 the top income tax bracket was 91%. We are nowhere near historical highs or confiscatory levels.


That's absurd. Rich people should pay it becuase they can. Why should rich people be punished just for the sake of?? That's crazy talk.

[btfoom]

Just from 2007:

Deductions: $26,516 in state/local/real estate taxes; $38,712 home mortgage interest; $995 "Gifts to Charity"
Interest: $99 from various sources
(According to his financial disclosure form filed with the Senate, he also received a $112,500 book advance from Random House and he donated $1,025 in honoraria from TV personalities David Letterman and Bill Maher to charity)
(source: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09/12/politics/horserace/entry4445194.shtml)

shows that he is a complete hippocrite. He writes off extra income (legal - of course) which is 100% the opposite of what he preaches. Mr. Biden needs to be more patriotic (as does his running mate, according to Mr. Biden): http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/politics/2007taxes_obama.pdf

Note: Obama and his wife write off $374,008, just in deductions, from 2007. That is more than most families in America make in one year. If he really believed that people need to pay more (even the "RICH", he would have done so himself).

[Heisenberg]

Yeah right. Liberals always have bright ideas on how to spend other peoples money.

So people who busted their ass from highschool on up and earned the salary they are making aren't patriotic and should have some of their money redistributed to the slackers who found school boring or who think America owes them because they were born here?

To reduce the deficit and National Debt it would take REAL SPENDING CUTs ( spending an additional 110 million on a project instead of a projected additional 135 million is considered a spending cut by 25 million) actually cleaning up the fraud and abuse that identifiable in the entitlement programs and less taxes to give people the incentive to invest.


Yes, because your "conservative" friends in DC have spent your money so wisely the past 8 years. :rolleyes:

[Pskins]

We don't need to pay taxes you silly liberals.

All our tanks come from the secret munitions cave.
All our ships come from the Magical Aircraft Carrier Fairy.*

*Planes not included

:silly:

[WVUforREDSKINS]

Yeah right. Liberals always have bright ideas on how to spend other peoples money.

So people who busted their ass from highschool on up and earned the salary they are making aren't patriotic and should have some of their money redistributed to the slackers who found school boring or who think America owes them because they were born here?

To reduce the deficit and National Debt it would take REAL SPENDING CUTs ( spending an additional 110 million on a project instead of a projected additional 135 million is considered a spending cut by 25 million) actually cleaning up the fraud and abuse that identifiable in the entitlement programs and less taxes to give people the incentive to invest.


http://www.majhost.com/gallery/dick101/fark3/deficit.jpg

[Smoot Point Really]

Why not invoke Jesus here? Did Jesus not say "The King will answer and say unto them 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto the least of my brethren, ye have done it unto me'" - Matthew 25:40. I would say that's compelling people to help others. In fact, I would say that can be extrapolated into compelling people to help the unfortunate with BASIC health care. I'm not talking about health care in general, I'm saying BASIC.

So yes, I think Jesus can very well be brought into this discussion b/c I'm trying to see how Christians (as I am assuming MSF is since he has no problem telling people the exact reasons for which they are going to hell) can rationalize openly telling less fortunate people in need of basic health care, "Whelp, you're screwed," which is something MSF has clearly stated.

BTW, yes, I believe basic and/or life-sustaining health care is a right of every individual this day in age and it is something government, along with private health agencies, should take some responsibility for.

What I'm saying is that people shouldn't be forced to do this kind of stuff... it's called "free will". I also believe that a part of caring for the "least" would be making sure that you don't burden others. There are other ways to provide health care for people than taxing the rich and calling it patriotism.