Iraqi shoe thrower badly beaten in custody, claims brother

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

The Iraqi journalist who threw his shoes at US president George Bush during a press conference has been beaten in custody, his brother has claimed.

Muntadar al-Zaidi was detained after hurling his shoes at Bush and calling him a "dog" during a press conference on Sunday in Baghdad.

His older brother, Dargham, told the BBC today that al-Zaidi had suffered a broken hand, ribs, suffered internal bleeding and sustained an eye injury.

According to the BBC, after the incident, al-Zaidi was detained by Iraqi authorities under the command of national security adviser Mowaffaq al-Rubaie, who also said the 28-year-old will be prosecuted under Iraqi law.

Reuters reported the claims of a brother calling himself Maitham, that al-Zaidi was in a hospital in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad.

"All that we know is we were contacted yesterday by a person - we know him - and he told us that Muntadar was taken on Sunday to Ibn-Sina hospital," Maitham al-Zaidi told Reuters. "He was wounded in the head because he was hit by a rifle butt, and one of his arms was broken."

However, the head of Iraq's journalists' union, Mouyyad al-Lami, told the BBC that officials had informed him al-Zaidi was being treated well and said that he hoped to visit his colleague at some stage.

Al-Zaidi hurled his shoes at Bush as an insult, his family claims, as he blamed the US president for the thousands of Iraqi deaths since the invasion of his homeland in 2003.

He has been hailed as hero by some and rallies across the Arab world have called for the al-Baghdadia TV journalist to be released.

This is not the first time the young reporter has been the subject of news reports.

In November last year, the Shia journalist was kidnapped as he walked to work and held for more than 48 hours. On release he said his captors, who were suspected of being al-Qaida members, had questioned him about his work and beaten him.

In January he was detained by American troops searching his building but released after a day with an apology.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/dec/16/iraqi-shoe-thrower

[corsair_joe]

oh boo-hoo.

[spjunkies]

Sucks to be him.

[The Brave Little Toaster Oven]

oh boo-hoo.

:ols: i agree

[Drop]

the guy doesn't like that his brother was beaten badly while in custody? Then he should tell his brother not to act like an idiot while he has his freedom.

[DeanCollins]

stone him....

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/760/404563.JPG

[BigMike619]

different article..nevermind

[SUSkinsFan]

stone him....

http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/760/404563.JPGhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm2BsjACkuI

[jpillian]

I agree with the general sentiment -- it's to be expected that the guy is going to get roughed up in custody by Iraqi police. No surprise there.

It would be nice if our ideas of civil society at some point filter down to the Iraqis; but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. And neither am I losing any sleep over his plight.

[TrumanB]

Wow, he got off this easy.

[twa]

I agree with the general sentiment -- it's to be expected that the guy is going to get roughed up in custody by Iraqi police. No surprise there.

It would be nice if our ideas of civil society at some point filter down to the Iraqis; but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. And neither am I losing any sleep over his plight.

It is a bit of a improvement over being thrown off a building,shot in the head, or having your whole family killed along with you....slackers;)

[Larry]

Not gonna be surprised if this beating didn't actually happen.

Not gonna be surprised if it did.

I am surprised, and very disappointed, at the number of people who are cheering it.

[BigMike619]

Not gonna be surprised if this beating didn't actually happen.

Not gonna be surprised if it did.

I am surprised, and very disappointed, at the number of people who are cheering it.

he attacked our President, our leader. It is like an attack on all of us.

I dont cheer it persay, but I would have done it myself if I was there.

[Burgold]

Humans like the idea of justice. They also like the idea of vengeance. There's no surprise people are cheering him being beaten or at least lack sympathy for it.

[hockeysc23]

Not gonna be surprised if this beating didn't actually happen.

Not gonna be surprised if it did.

I am surprised, and very disappointed, at the number of people who are cheering it.

What part of he attacked our President did you not understand?

So people that are upset are allowed to attack the President and its ok?

He should be happy he wasn't shot on the spot.

(I know I should probably underline a word in there so it has meaning but I think you get my point ....)

[Larry]

He "attacked our President" by throwing a shoe. One that missed. And by calling him a name. Ooohhh. Obviously an act of war.

Now, I could certainly understand if the idiot had been shot on the spot. Making sudden, threatening motions in the direction of the President while holding some unidentified object in your hands? I could understand some bodyguard shooting the guy and identifying the object later. If he's shot on the spot, then I chalk it up as "Doodoo occurs". (If he dies, then I nominate him for a Darwin award.)

I can understand the guy being taken into custody. The shoe might have been poisoned, for example. Just because it looked like a political publicity stunt, doesn't mean it wasn't a serious threat. Take the guy in, and check it (and him) out.

But once he's in custody, then the guy isn't even accused of a crime. What he's accused of is engaging in a harmless publicity stunt.

Maybe it's just my opinion, but to me, beating an unarmed man for being uppity to his "betters" is Wrong.

[BigMike619]

being uppity? what do you think his intentions were when he threw the shoe? you think it was just because he wanted to say hi and that he saw Bush? No Larry, he was trying to hit him in the head. Something that would have hurt even in Austin Powers movies.

Stop trying to minimalize things for whatever reasons you have. If you are invited in to those meetings you are expected to act a certain way. If he just wanted to make a point he could have shouted names at him but instead he decided upon an act of aggression at a world leader.

[hockeysc23]

He "attacked our President" by throwing a shoe. One that missed. And by calling him a name. Ooohhh. Obviously an act of war.

Now, I could certainly understand if the idiot had been shot on the spot. Making sudden, threatening motions in the direction of the President while holding some unidentified object in your hands? I could understand some bodyguard shooting the guy and identifying the object later. If he's shot on the spot, then I chalk it up as "Doodoo occurs". (If he dies, then I nominate him for a Darwin award.)

I can understand the guy being taken into custody. The shoe might have been poisoned, for example. Just because it looked like a political publicity stunt, doesn't mean it wasn't a serious threat. Take the guy in, and check it (and him) out.

But once he's in custody, then the guy isn't even accused of a crime. What he's accused of is engaging in a harmless publicity stunt.

Maybe it's just my opinion, but to me, beating an unarmed man for being uppity to his "betters" is Wrong.

Like it or not he is "our President". He tried to hurt the President with whatever means were at his disposal. If he wanted to make a point he could've said something or worn a t-shirt that expressed his opinion.

But instead he choose to use an object to throw at the President. When has this become ok?

Is it not an act of violence to hurl an object at someone? Would it have killed President Bush if it hit him? No, but it doesn't make it ok.

[Larry]

being uppity? what do you think his intentions were when he threw the shoe?

He wanted to get his name in the papers. Maybe, if he got really lucky, a picture of The Evil Bush with a cut on his forehead.

He's on NNT, and he wanted to hijack somebody else's thread to get his message out.

You know, political protest? Used to be something that Americans respected?


Stop trying to minimalize things for whatever reasons you have.

Stop trying to turn a political publicity stunt into attempted murder.

So far, I haven't seen any reports that his "weapon" was a Deadly Ninja Throwing Shoe (tm), or that it's razor-sharp edges had been dipped in curare.

He's accused of doing something that, if he's been really lucky, might have left a bruise.


If you are invited in to those meetings you are expected to act a certain way. If he just wanted to make a point he could have shouted names at him but instead he decided upon an act of aggression at a world leader.

But beating an unarmed man, who's in police custody, badly enough to cause fractures, isn't the appropriate response to the crime of Failure to Maintain Proper Decorum.

[Destino]

First of all people I don't care who the target was we are talking about a flying shoe here. This isn't as big a deal as people seem to want it to be when using words like "attacked" and "assaulted". If someone didn't know what had happened would reading that give them an accurate picture of the event? No.

What this idiot did was disrespect our President. That was his intent and I doubt the use of his shoes was accidental. That has meaning in that part of the world, where as in the US it just makes you look like a dumbass over there it's a big insult.

I'm annoyed at the response in Iraq. Like it or not the US could pull the plug on the free security we are providing them at any minute. You'd think they'd have enough respect to react more seriously to this. There should have been a national apology delivered seriously and a sense of national humiliation on their part. Also the press and people in the US shouldn't be celebrating this fool. Another poster was right when he said Bush is our President. This guy disrespected our leader, our country, and at the moment our good will in providing very expensive security.

Should he have been beaten by security? Not IMO, but I don't know what they expect to happen there - I mean we are talking about idiots that throw shoes at visiting leaders? He is lucky that Bush's security didn't punch a few holes in his head... and frankly I'd like to know why they didn't. The first shoe I understand but the second? Someone should have tackled or shot him by the second throw. He had more time than Campbell to make that throw.

[Larry]

Like it or not he is "our President". He tried to hurt the President with whatever means were at his disposal. If he wanted to make a point he could've said something or worn a t-shirt that expressed his opinion.

But instead he choose to use an object to throw at the President. When has this become ok?

Is it not an act of violence to hurl an object at someone? Would it have killed President Bush if it hit him? No, but it doesn't make it ok.

Never said it was OK.

Said that a police-administered beating isn't something to cheer about.

[Burgold]

being uppity? what do you think his intentions were when he threw the shoe? you think it was just because he wanted to say hi and that he saw Bush? No Larry, he was trying to hit him in the head. Something that would have hurt even in Austin Powers movies.

I don't think his goal was to hurt him physically. I think it was too insult him and show contempt. It was also to get attention.

[BigMike619]

He wanted to get his name in the papers. Maybe, if he got really lucky, a picture of The Evil Bush with a cut on his forehead.

He's on NNT, and he wanted to hijack somebody else's thread to get his message out.

You know, political protest? Used to be something that Americans respected?



Stop trying to turn a political publicity stunt into attempted murder.

So far, I haven't seen any reports that his "weapon" was a Deadly Ninja Throwing Shoe (tm), or that it's razor-sharp edges had been dipped in curare.

He's accused of doing something that, if he's been really lucky, might have left a bruise.



But beating an unarmed man, who's in police custody, badly enough to cause fractures, isn't the appropriate response to the crime of Failure to Maintain Proper Decorum.

when did i say attempted murder? i believe i said assault and i dont have to turn it in to that, it is that already.

so your WHOLE argument is the fact that it is "just a shoe". just a shoe is the ONLY thing you can brush this off with?

I guess we should ALL be happy it was "just a shoe" because the INTENT behind the shoe was a lot more serious then you are letting it be.

[BigMike619]

I don't think his goal was to hurt him physically. I think it was too insult him and show contempt. It was also to get attention.

then why not just stick with yelling?

why do you throw things at people Burg?

do you throw things like shoes at people's heads just to say hi? he didnt even throw it underhand. he threw it like he was aiming for his head.

[DButz65]

His brother should realize that hes lucky to be alive, hes lucky the secret service didnt take his ass out.

[Burgold]

then why not just stick with yelling?

why do you throw things at people Burg?

do you throw things like shoes at people's heads just to say hi? he didnt even throw it underhand. he threw it like he was aiming for his head.

Okay, let's replace the word "hurt" with injure. I don't think the goal was to "injure" him. From what I've read the shoe thing is amongst the lowest of Arab insults. I think he wanted to show contempt, humiliate him, and prove himself a big man by standing up against the Pres.

Now, he was a stupid jackass for doing what he did and chalk me up amongst those who wouldn't have been surprised if he were shot nor who's particularly surprised/upset that his countrymen beat him up for embarrassing Iraq. Because the guy did two things: He got to show his contempt and anger at our President and he made a fool of his own country by showing how incompetent their security and protocol is. You lose face when you allow something like this happen to another nation's leader.

So, he killed two birds with one shoe... and probably meant to. Was it worth a beating and probably his life? I wouldn't think so, but you'd have to ask him.

[hockeysc23]

then why not just stick with yelling?

why do you throw things at people Burg?

do you throw things like shoes at people's heads just to say hi? he didnt even throw it underhand. he threw it like he was aiming for his head.

Ding Ding Ding. All of you who are saying this isn't a big deal is because you disapprove of Bush not because of the incident.

Saying he threw a shoe at someone wasn't an act of violence and/or assault? :doh:

If its ok then we should be able to throw anything at Obama that wouldn't kill him right? I mean its ok right?

Some of you have the weirdest ways of rationalizing things to fit your agenda. If anyone throws any object at a President (rep, dem, or indep) then they should be lucky to not have a bullet in their head from the SS.

[BigMike619]

well, he should have thought about that before he attacked the leader of the free world with a shoe.

replacing hurt with injure is just symantics man. both mean the same thing in the sense of why the man threw the shoe.

[zoony]

First of all people I don't care who the target was we are talking about a flying shoe here. This isn't as big a deal as people seem to want it to be when using words like "attacked" and "assaulted". If someone didn't know what had happened would reading that give them an accurate picture of the event? No.

What this idiot did was disrespect our President. That was his intent and I doubt the use of his shoes was accidental. That has meaning in that part of the world, where as in the US it just makes you look like a dumbass over there it's a big insult.

I'm annoyed at the response in Iraq. Like it or not the US could pull the plug on the free security we are providing them at any minute. You'd think they'd have enough respect to react more seriously to this. There should have been a national apology delivered seriously and a sense of national humiliation on their part. Also the press and people in the US shouldn't be celebrating this fool. Another poster was right when he said Bush is our President. This guy disrespected our leader, our country, and at the moment our good will in providing very expensive security.

Should he have been beaten by security? Not IMO, but I don't know what they expect to happen there - I mean we are talking about idiots that throw shoes at visiting leaders? He is lucky that Bush's security didn't punch a few holes in his head... and frankly I'd like to know why they didn't. The first shoe I understand but the second? Someone should have tackled or shot him by the second throw. He had more time than Campbell to make that throw.



At the risk of an excessive text quote :silly:, I wanted to say that this post is spot on, beginning to end. Exactly how I feel.

....

[Larry]

I guess we should ALL be happy it was "just a shoe" because the INTENT behind the shoe was a lot more serious then you are letting it be.

Please, enlighten me, O Great Mind Reader.

Tell me exactly what this person's dastardly intent was. And how you've determined what his intent was.

Me? I base my interpretation on the logic of "When a person performs an action, then the logical assumption is that that person's intent is to cause whatever the typical consequences of that action, usually are."

(I'll admit that I wouldn't have trouble believing that maybe the guy thought that the response to his action would be for him to get shot. If your theory is that this was a case of attempted "suicide by cop" then I could believe that. (Although I'd believe it more if there were a suicide note.))

[BigMike619]

run up on Obama and make a motion like you are going to throw a shoe at him. Make that same motion with the Soviet leader...tell me what happens.

you calling me "o great mind reader" is a ****ing joke. you are sitting here doing the same thing so save your stupid name calling jokes.

[Burgold]

This isn't a good parallel, but it's the first one that comes to mind.

Sometimes when you want to refute or yell at a fellow poster you may just type.

Other times, you may add a video or attach an image.

The idiot with the shoe added the youtube "owned" video. He wanted to embarrass him and rub it in. That's what the gesture was about. He didn't think Bush would land in the hospital.

[Midnight Judges]

I guess we should ALL be happy it was "just a shoe" because the INTENT behind the shoe was a lot more serious then you are letting it be.

lol!

Back in simpler times we could joke about throwing shoes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nnrno8agddQ&feature=related

[BigMike619]

ok, so sometimes I get mad at my kid and yell at him.

other times i hit him in the face with a shoe.

which one gets me in troulbe with CPS?

[Gary Clark Fan]

so whats happened if our soldiers had thrown their shoes at all the prisoners locked up down in Guntanamo? No big deal, right?

[Midnight Judges]

so whats happened if our soldiers had thrown their shoes at all the prisoners locked up down in Guntanamo? No big deal, right?

Why don't you go look that up in Bush's interrogation memos from 2003.

[Larry]

you calling me "o great mind reader" is a ****ing joke. you are sitting here doing the same thing so save your stupid name calling jokes.

Not exactly.

I've stated my opinion of his motives. And provided logical reasons why I believe them.

You've told me how great Bush is. And how his office somehow makes it appropriate for people who fail to show respect when demanded deserve to be beaten.

You've told me that a thrown shoe is a serious threat of physical harm. And how this somehow justifies actual physical harm.

You've told me that my opinion of the guy's motives is completely wrong.

But you won't even state your opinion. Even when asked.

My position is "I think this was his motive, and here's why."

Your position is "Oh yeah? Well you're wrong!" ("And I don't have to tell you what I think is right, or support it in any way.")

[Burgold]

ok, so sometimes I get mad at my kid and yell at him.

other times i hit him in the face with a shoe.

which one gets me in troulbe with CPS?

Wait a minute... I'm missing a step here. Is anyone arguing that the idiot shouldn't have been arrested? There's no question the man needs to be detained and serve a sentence. Heck, even if he threw the shoe at a regular Joe that's assault. Throwing it at a foreign leader is much worse.

[BigMike619]

Not exactly.

I've stated my opinion of his motives. And provided logical reasons why I believe them.

You've told me how great Bush is. And how his office somehow makes it appropriate for people who fail to show respect when demanded deserve to be beaten.

You've told me that a thrown shoe is a serious threat of physical harm. And how this somehow justifies actual physical harm.

You've told me that my opinion of the guy's motives is completely wrong.

But you won't even state your opinion. Even when asked.

My position is "I think this was his motive, and here's why."

Your position is "Oh yeah? Well you're wrong!" ("And I don't have to tell you what I think is right, or support it in any way.")

I told you how great Bush is? Larry, quit making **** up.

I told you that I thought he was trying to assault Bush and that he was trying to harm him. Learn to read dude before you get all excited and hit the reply button.

aawww, did I hurt poor Larry's feelings by challenging him on what he believes? Kind of like calling people names like "O great mind reader" and telling me that Im avoiding things even when asked.

Ive highlighted in red 2 different statements by you. One is that I think throwing a shoe is a threat of physical harm and the other is that you say I wont state my opinion. Isnt that my opinion?

[Gary Clark Fan]

Why don't you go look that up in Bush's interrogation memos from 2003.


no, i could care less about what we did to those worthless scums...What ever Bush ordered was to easy in my book..If it were up to me I would stick a Shaq size shoe up the shoe throwers ass and made him beg for allah.

[MrMarcus1914]

Say hello to the newly liberated Democratic Iraq.

[Larry]

I told you how great Bush is? Larry, quit making **** up.

I told you that I thought he was trying to assault Bush and that he was trying to harm him. Learn to read dude before you get all excited and hit the reply button.

aawww, did I hurt poor Larry's feelings by challenging him on what he believes? Kind of like calling people names like "O great mind reader" and telling me that Im avoiding things even when asked.

Ive highlighted in red 2 different statements by you. One is that I think throwing a shoe is a threat of physical harm and the other is that you say I wont state my opinion. Isnt that my opinion?

What do you think was this person's intent when he performed this action? And could you please explain to me why you believe that was the person's intent?

[Pwyl]

What do you think was this person's intent when he performed this action? And could you please explain to me why you believe that was the person's intent?





objection... asked and answered:




what do you think his intentions were when he threw the shoe? you think it was just because he wanted to say hi and that he saw Bush? No Larry, he was trying to hit him in the head.

[artmonkforHOF]

he attacked our President, our leader. It is like an attack on all of us.

I dont cheer it persay, but I would have done it myself if I was there.

Dude, next time your country invades another, kills hundreds of thousands of people and someone who probably has lost many friends, relatives, and co workers throws a show at your leader, don't insult the man any more by saying his shoe throwing incident was like an attack on all of us, because that guy actually was under attack, by things that could kill him like missiles, grenades, bullets and land mines.

Over a freakin shoe..:doh:

[BigMike619]

What do you think was this person's intent when he performed this action? And could you please explain to me why you believe that was the person's intent?

I believe he was pissed at Bush and took a shot at him with his shoe. Believe me, I have been to the gulf enough to know that it is a form of insult by showing the bottom of your shoe and that could be part of it. But I think the man threw his shoe at Bush's head hoping to hit him and knock him senseless.

I dont think it needs explaining why throwing a shoe at a man's head is meant to hurt him. it is pretty simple.

[BigMike619]

Dude, next time your country invades another, kills hundreds of thousands of people and someone who probably has lost many friends, relatives, and co workers throws a show at your leader, don't insult the man any more by saying his shoe throwing incident was like an attack on all of us, because that guy actually was under attack, by things that could kill him like missiles, grenades, bullets and land mines.

Over a freakin shoe..:doh:


just stop now though because I dont care about your opinion when it comes to American problems.

[Midnight Judges]

no, i could care less about what we did to those worthless scums...What ever Bush ordered was to easy in my book..If it were up to me I would stick a Shaq size shoe up the shoe throwers ass and made him beg for allah.

Not everyone in custody is guilty. They are suspects.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/20/international/asia/20abuse.html



At the interrogators' behest, a guard tried to force the young man to his knees. But his legs, which had been pummeled by guards for several days, could no longer bend. An interrogator told Mr. Dilawar that he could see a doctor after they finished with him. When he was finally sent back to his cell, though, the guards were instructed only to chain the prisoner back to the ceiling.

"Leave him up," one of the guards quoted Specialist Claus as saying.
Several hours passed before an emergency room doctor finally saw Mr. Dilawar. By then he was dead, his body beginning to stiffen. It would be many months before Army investigators learned a final horrific detail: Most of the interrogators had believed Mr. Dilawar was an innocent man who simply drove his taxi past the American base at the wrong time.

[Burgold]

MJ,

I wouldn't want to be judged by my worst moments and that's what these examples are. I don't believe (at least I don't want to believe) that this is SOP. I think there are and were some really bad moments and probably more than there should have been, but these are the exceptions.

I can understand how stories like these might blacken some Iraqi hearts. Heck, knowing that relatives, friends, and other loved ones will never be seen again also has caused irrepairable anger, grief and hate too... but by and large, I don't think our men were cruel viscious and heartless over there.

[Larry]

But I think the man threw his shoe at Bush's head hoping to hit him and knock him senseless.

What do you figure are the odds of a person successfully knocking someone senseless, using a thrown shoe?

[Midnight Judges]

MJ,

I wouldn't want to be judged by my worst moments and that's what these examples are. I don't believe (at least I don't want to believe) that this is SOP. I think there are and were some really bad moments and probably more than there should have been, but these are the exceptions.

I can understand how stories like these might blacken some Iraqi hearts. Heck, knowing that relatives, friends, and other loved ones will never be seen again also has caused irrepairable anger, grief and hate too... but by and large, I don't think our men were cruel viscious and heartless over there.

I'm not judging based on this incident, just pointing out that abusing random prisoners and assuming they are guilty simply because they are in custody is the wrong approach.

But to speak more to your point, a recent bipartisan congressional investigation concludes abuses were systematic and resulted directly from Bush administration policies:



A bipartisan panel of senators has concluded that former defense secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Donald+H.+Rumsfeld?tid=informline) and other top Bush administration officials bear direct responsibility for the harsh treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Guantanamo+Bay?tid=informline), and that their decisions led to more serious abuses in Iraq and elsewhere.

In the most comprehensive critique by Congress of the military's interrogation practices, the Senate Armed Services Committee (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/U.S.+Senate+Committee+on+Armed+Services?tid=inform line) issued a report yesterday that accuses Rumsfeld and his deputies of being the authors and chief promoters of harsh interrogation policies that disgraced the nation and undermined U.S. security. The report, released by Sens. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/related/topic/Carl+Levin?tid=informline) and John McCain (http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/m000303/) (R-Ariz.), contends that Pentagon officials later tried to create a false impression that the policies were unrelated to acts of detainee abuse committed by members of the military.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121101969_pf.html

[BigMike619]

What do you figure are the odds of a person successfully knocking someone senseless, using a thrown shoe?

so now because the odds are low that it would really hurt it isnt as serious?

[Burgold]

I'm not judging based on this incident, just pointing out that abusing random prisoners and assuming they are guilty simply because they are in custody is the wrong approach.

I agree with that. Presumption of innocense was well engrained in me too.

But to speak more to your point, a recent bipartisan congressional investigation concludes abuses were systematic and resulted directly from Bush administration policies:

I definately believe they were "following orders" What the relative frequency was I don't know, but again, it doesn't get long to reach the level of too many

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121101969_pf.html

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

Well, call me very old school, but I believe in two eyes for an eye.

Throw four shoes at the guy, hit him directly in the face with each one, since that was his goal. For good measure, get Joel Zumaya, the pitcher with a 100 mph fastball to throw them.

Then let him do the time.

[Destino]

Well, call me very old school, but I believe in two eyes for an eye.

Throw four shoes at the guy, hit him directly in the face with each one, since that was his goal. For good measure, get Joel Zumaya, the pitcher with a 100 mph fastball to throw them.

Then let him do the time.
How about we just go by the laws on the books and let him have his day in court? Honestly I don't see why this is such a hated concept for people these days.

[Special K]

But once he's in custody, then the guy isn't even accused of a crime. What he's accused of is engaging in a harmless publicity stunt.

Maybe it's just my opinion, but to me, beating an unarmed man for being uppity to his "betters" is Wrong.
LOL, uh Larry, have you ever visited a developing country? This is par for the course. In fact, this is tame.

The guy lives in Iraq. He knows very well what goes on in his country's prisons. This is stuff people should think about before they pull stupid stunts and end up getting thrown in jail in places like Iraq...or any other developing country for that matter.

So getting on a soapbox about how you can't believe people are "cheering" this on, which happens to be your interpretation of what posters in this thread are doing is just a little bit over the top. I don't see the majority of posters here "cheering" as much as I see them saying 1)they aren't surprised that this happened 2) they do not care that this happened and 3) he was lucky he was not shot on the spot.

[Special K]

I can't believe people are even arguing about this situation and legitimately trying to apply U.S. standards to the Iraqi prison system.

[twa]

I can't believe people are even arguing about this situation and legitimately trying to apply U.S. standards to the Iraqi prison system.

I can't believe they blindly accept second hand info from the guys brother:)

If Dana Perino got a black eye just as a bystander,how much damage do you think the idiot throwing the shoe got being subdued and removed?

His actions show him to be less than sensible and provoking a strong reaction from Iraqi security is only natural.

[Koala]

BigMike, throwing a shoe is intended as insult. Not as an assault. Im quite sure that noone has even been injured by a thrown shoe.

The Secret Service has put out many statements today, defending their decision not to open fire. Not surprisingly, the jist of their defense is, "it was just a shoe."

Keeeastman, all kinds of bad stuff happens in the developing world, stuff that would make your coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood. That doesnt mean you shouldnt care. That doesnt mean you shouldnt object. And that definitely is no excuse to become a cold-hearted *******.

[Slacky McSlackAss]

Keeeastman, all kinds of bad stuff happens in the developing world, stuff that would make your coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood. That doesnt mean you shouldnt care. That doesnt mean you shouldnt object. And that definitely is no excuse to become a cold-hearted *******.

Ok, I think you misinterpreted keeastman's post. She just spent a month in a 3rd world country. She knows whats going in this world.

[Redskins Diehard]

The guy should not be surprised that he was taken into custody. During my time in Iraq I found that hospitality was also a very important tradition to them. So while hurling a shoe was definitely an insult, being disrespectful to a visitor is poor Iraqi form.

He should be charged, tried, and punished...not beaten in his cell. We are trying to spread the best of our society.

And I do think that throwing the shoe crossed a line from "acceptable" political protest...to unacceptable

[d0ublestr0ker0ll]

How about we just go by the laws on the books and let him have his day in court? Honestly I don't see why this is such a hated concept for people these days.

Booooriiinnngggg.

At least throw eggs at him or something.

[Redskins Diehard]

BigMike, throwing a shoe is intended as insult. Not as an assault. Im quite sure that noone has even been injured by a thrown shoe.

The Secret Service has put out many statements today, defending their decision not to open fire. Not surprisingly, the jist of their defense is, "it was just a shoe."

Keeeastman, all kinds of bad stuff happens in the developing world, stuff that would make your coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood. That doesnt mean you shouldnt care. That doesnt mean you shouldnt object. And that definitely is no excuse to become a cold-hearted *******.

The Secret Service justified their response(which I believe was the proper response). And whether the shoe was meant as an insult or assault doesn't matter...if I spit on someone I didn't mean to injure them...and I'll probably be charged.

[Special K]

Keeeastman, all kinds of bad stuff happens in the developing world, stuff that would make your coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood. That doesnt mean you shouldnt care. That doesnt mean you shouldnt object. And that definitely is no excuse to become a cold-hearted *******.
Welcome to the board my friend. :)

Just so you know, I've travelled through many developing countries on many continents and have seen many things that you obviously think my "coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood" (what movie did you get that from by the way? it sounds familiar...). You want to know specfics, I am certainly willing to rehash some of my experiences, like the time where retrieved a family friend from a jail in Zambia where I saw people who had clearly gone through a lot worse than a beating or the time I spent in Zimbabwe, over the PM.

So please spare me the lecture about stuff you think I haven't seen or experienced and assume I'm a "cold-hearted *******" as I certainly am not one by any stretch of the imagination. However, I am also not going to act shocked and abhorred by the fact that someone got beaten up in an Iraqi prison. That's the reality of the situation over there and many, many other developing nations, and their citizens very well know that. Do I condone physical violence, of course not, but I am not going to act shocked when it happens in these places and I'm certainly not going to get up on a soapbox and yap about how we should apply U.S. standards to these types of situations b/c that line of thought is absurd and non-productive, especially as it pertains to this particular story.

Care to throw any more insults my way? If not, you'll have to excuse my, I see a poor fly on the wall that I need to go smash...

[twa]

The Secret Service justified their response(which I believe was the proper response). And whether the shoe was meant as an insult or assault doesn't matter...if I spit on someone I didn't mean to injure them...and I'll probably be charged.


And arrested,and injured if you resist arrest or are considered a danger.

Interesting tidbit being ignored by most

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,24808673-401,00.html
Durgham Zaidi was unable to say whether his brother Muntazer had sustained the injuries while being overpowered during Sunday’s protest against President Bush’s visit or while in custody later.

[Califan007]

How about we just go by the laws on the books and let him have his day in court? Honestly I don't see why this is such a hated concept for people these days.
This is an Iraqi issue, not an American one. Let the citizens of Iraq deal with whatever happened to the shoe thrower...we shouldn't act like this happened in Kansas.

[Slacky McSlackAss]

Welcome to the board my friend. :)

Just so you know, I've travelled through many developing countries on many continents and have seen many things that you obviously think my "coddled, sheltered, soft *** cry tears of blood" (what movie did you get that from by the way? it sounds familiar...). You want to know specfics, I am certainly willing to rehash some of my experiences, like the time where retrieved a family friend from a jail in Zambia where I saw people who had clearly gone through a lot worse than a beating or the time I spent in Zimbabwe, over the PM.

So please spare me the lecture about stuff you think I haven't seen or experienced and assume I'm a "cold-hearted *******" as I certainly am not one by any stretch of the imagination. However, I am also not going to act shocked and abhorred by the fact that someone got beaten up in an Iraqi prison. That's the reality of the situation over there and many, many other developing nations, and their citizens very well know that. Do I condone physical violence, of course not, but I am not going to act shocked when it happens in these places and I'm certainly not going to get up on a soapbox and yap about how we should apply U.S. standards to these types of situations b/c that line of thought is absurd and non-productive, especially as it pertains to this particular story.

Care to throw any more insults my way? If not, you'll have to excuse my, I see a poor fly on the wall that I need to go smash...
Didnt you used to club baby seals too? ;)

[jnhay]

Like it or not he is "our President". He tried to hurt the President with whatever means were at his disposal. If he wanted to make a point he could've said something or worn a t-shirt that expressed his opinion.

But instead he choose to use an object to throw at the President. When has this become ok?

Is it not an act of violence to hurl an object at someone? Would it have killed President Bush if it hit him? No, but it doesn't make it ok.
Why is it okay to beat him though? I don't consider that okay.

[Special K]

Didnt you used to club baby seals too? ;)
That's my 3rd favorite past-time. Drop kicking babies just edged that one out. :)

[twa]

Why is it okay to beat him though? I don't consider that okay.

Define beat...Would throwing shoes at him count?;)

[Slacky McSlackAss]

That's my 3rd favorite past-time. Drop kicking babies just edged that one out. :)

Just stay away from the Ivory Poaching, or else. :mad:

[Koala]

Ok, I think you misinterpreted keeastman's post. She just spent a month in a 3rd world country. She knows whats going in this world

I thought he/she said that we shouldnt care if the man gets beaten in jail. Apparently they said they were not surprised, which I interpreted to mean they didnt care. BTW, keeastman, I was born and raised in a 3rd world country, so whatever experience you think you have, I guarantee does not equal mine


The Secret Service justified their response(which I believe was the proper response). And whether the shoe was meant as an insult or assault doesn't matter...if I spit on someone I didn't mean to injure them...and I'll probably be charged.
I agree. I was objecting to the idea that man should be treated as if he had assaulted the President. No, he insulted the President (which btw is a crime in Iraq), not assaulted him. Its a big difference in terms of appropriate punishment. Id say a month in jail, and revokation of his press badge would be appropriate, not beating the man to a bloody pulp.

[twa]

More info


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LG643025.htm
Al-Zaidi was brought today before the investigating judge in the presence of a defence lawyer and a prosecutor," Birqadr said. "He admits the action he carried out."

The court decided to keep Zaidi in custody, and after the judge completes his investigation of the case may send him for trial under a clause in the Iraqi penal code that punishes anyone who attempts to murder Iraqi or foreign presidents.

Such a crime could result in imprisonment of seven to 15 years, Birqadr said.

Zaidi's brother said on Tuesday he was hit in the head with a rifle butt and had an arm broken in the chaos that broke out after he threw his shoes at Bush and was leapt on by Iraqi security officers and U.S. secret service agents.

He was in a hospital in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad, his brother Maitham al-Zaidi said.

"All that we know is we were contacted yesterday by a person -- we know him -- and he told us that Muntazer was taken on Sunday to Ibn-Sina hospital," Maitham al-Zaidi said. "He was wounded in the head because he was hit by a rifle butt, and one of his arms was broken."

The brother declined to identify the source of the information and his comments could not be independently verified. Asked about the brother's remarks, various Iraqi officials denied having responsibility for the case.

Birqadr said he was not present during the hearing and so could not confirm whether Zaidi was injured.

[Larry]

so now because the odds are low that it would really hurt it isnt as serious?

I can personally testify that it has occurred, that a middle aged man, playing softball, chasing a pop fly, and colliding with the center fielder, can be injured badly enough to be in a coma for three days, and hospitalized for 30.

However, if an Iraqi reporter challenges Bush to a game of softball, I will not announce that his intent was obviously to render the President unconscious for a month.

And again: I never said the guy deserves a medal. I said he doesn't deserve a police-administered beating resulting in multiple fractures.

[twa]

And again: I never said the guy deserves a medal. I said he doesn't deserve a police-administered beating resulting in multiple fractures.

They are multiplying?...Oh goody

[Califan007]

More info


http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LG643025.htm
Al-Zaidi was brought today before the investigating judge in the presence of a defence lawyer and a prosecutor," Birqadr said. "He admits the action he carried out."

The court decided to keep Zaidi in custody, and after the judge completes his investigation of the case may send him for trial under a clause in the Iraqi penal code that punishes anyone who attempts to murder Iraqi or foreign presidents.

Such a crime could result in imprisonment of seven to 15 years, Birqadr said.

Zaidi's brother said on Tuesday he was hit in the head with a rifle butt and had an arm broken in the chaos that broke out after he threw his shoes at Bush and was leapt on by Iraqi security officers and U.S. secret service agents.

He was in a hospital in the heavily fortified Green Zone in Baghdad, his brother Maitham al-Zaidi said.

"All that we know is we were contacted yesterday by a person -- we know him -- and he told us that Muntazer was taken on Sunday to Ibn-Sina hospital," Maitham al-Zaidi said. "He was wounded in the head because he was hit by a rifle butt, and one of his arms was broken."

The brother declined to identify the source of the information and his comments could not be independently verified. Asked about the brother's remarks, various Iraqi officials denied having responsibility for the case.

Birqadr said he was not present during the hearing and so could not confirm whether Zaidi was injured.
So he wasn't beaten while in custody or while in jail, but during the chaos that he himself started?...

[Burgold]

One other point that I figure ought to be said...

This dude knew it was coming. He knew if he threw that shoe he would be shot or arrested and if arrested that he probably wouldn't be treated well. He probably also knew that he would be a hero to some. I think it's important to acknowledge that he did this knowing what would happen to him. You can respect that kind of bravery, even if it offensive stupidity.

I think in fact I'm almost certain that he knew he would not enjoy the aftermath of this and I bet there's a part of him and his brother that is quite shocked he's alive. Shame on his brother though. If you do something like this you take what's coming to you. His brother's whining (defense?) tarnishes the act.

And from the reporter's... from that Iraqi's point of view this was an act of bravery and conviction and his only opportunity to spit in the face of a man he obviously despised.

Well, you got to spit in a U.S. President's face. Now, deal with the consequences. They likely won't be kind. And I'm sure he knows that he has only faced the beginning of his ordeal.

[cjcdaman]

I can personally testify that it has occurred, that a middle aged man, playing softball, chasing a pop fly, and colliding with the center fielder, can be injured badly enough to be in a coma for three days, and hospitalized for 30.

However, if an Iraqi reporter challenges Bush to a game of softball, I will not announce that his intent was obviously to render the President unconscious for a month.

And again: I never said the guy deserves a medal. I said he doesn't deserve a police-administered beating resulting in multiple fractures.


:rotflmao: to this whole post! Larry, you have been so back and forth in this thread.

[Special K]

I thought he/she said that we shouldnt care if the man gets beaten in jail. Apparently they said they were not surprised, which I interpreted to mean they didnt care. BTW, keeastman, I was born and raised in a 3rd world country, so whatever experience you think you have, I guarantee does not equal mine.
Buddy, I don't care where you were born. I don't care how much "experience" you have in developing nations. I'm sure you have a lot more experience than mine, I DON'T CARE. All that is entirely besides the point.

The point of my post in which I responded to you, which you clearly missed, was that you shouldn't just assume that:
1) I don't care
2) I am a coddled whatever who will cry tears of blood or something to that effect
3) that I'm a cold-hearted whatever

I said that this type of treatment is to be expected and he is lucky that he did not get worse. That is not an opinion, that is FACT. Since you were born in a developing nation and have "experience" there I would expect you would also say that is fact.

Simply because someone states the reality of the situation does not mean that that person does not care. :)

Furthermore, I'm surprised that some other people are actually surprised that this would happen to a man who "just threw and shoe." Again, that is not me being a cold-hearted *******, that is me expressing my surprise. :)

I'm also a pragmatic realist and I think it is a waste of time to sit around and argue about why this is wrong and why we're right and why Iraq should adopt our system of justice. Clearly this is wrong. Clearly people shouldn't be beaten up in custody. Clearly our justice system is more just. Is that going to change anything over there? Absolutely not. As long as Iraq or other developing nations do not have a system of justice that upholds human rights, this stuff is going to happen...and I highly doubt if it's going to change any time soon, if ever. The citizens of these countries very well know this is going to happen. This is not a surprise. This is something he should have weighed the consequences of before he acted as again, he very well knew he, just like most other prisoners held in those systems, would not be treated in a manner that respects his rights as a human.

While I don't condone beating up prisoners and I am a proponent of human rights, I'm not going to sit around acting shocked at this and go on about how wrong this is. Just because I happened to state the facts of the situation in a disspassionate manner does not mean I don't care. It means I don't tend to let my emotions get overly involved when I am discussing the reality of certain situations.

[Special K]

One other point that I figure ought to be said...

This dude knew it was coming. He knew if he threw that shoe he would be shot or arrested and if arrested that he probably wouldn't be treated well. He probably also knew that he would be a hero to some. I think it's important to acknowledge that he did this knowing what would happen to him. You can respect that kind of bravery, even if it offensive stupidity.

I think in fact I'm almost certain that he knew he would not enjoy the aftermath of this and I bet there's a part of him and his brother that is quite shocked he's alive. Shame on his brother though. If you do something like this you take what's coming to you. His brother's whining (defense?) tarnishes the act.Well, you got to spit in a U.S. President's face. Now, deal with the consequences. They likely won't be kind. And I'm sure he knows that he has only faced the beginning of his ordeal.
Thank-you. That is very much what I was getting at in some of my posts.

[skinsfan_1215]

:doh: to everyone in this thread that thinks that it is OK that this guy received multiple fractures and internal bleeding from a police beating.

I mean, seriously, it was just a freaking shoe...

Plus, it gave all of us many great laughs, check the Own3d thread;)

[Burgold]

I agree, Keeastman and I think what some of us are doing is a little dishonest or naive. Sure, for the most part we don't officially beat up prisoners (although I'm sure that does happen sometimes), but how many times have we predicted (knowingly, gleefully, righteously) what was about to happen to a child molestor or a rapist when they were incarcerated in an American jail. Isn't there an expectation that the guards turn a blind eye and we expect prisoners to exact a pound of flesh? Isn't that a very similar beast?

[Redskins Diehard]

I can't believe people are even arguing about this situation and legitimately trying to apply U.S. standards to the Iraqi prison system.

You know that applying US standards to their country is what we are doing there. Hundreds of thousands of US troops have spent the last 5+ years trying to establish a US type system...we should not accept as okay now what was okay before

[Larry]

So getting on a soapbox about how you can't believe people are "cheering" this on, which happens to be your interpretation of what posters in this thread are doing is just a little bit over the top.

My post, complaining about "cheering" was the 12th post in the thread. Meaning there were 11 posts preceding mine. Of those 11 posts, 3 said absolutely nothing (for one reason or another.)

Here, in their entirety, are the 8 posts which expressed an opinion on the man's being beaten:


oh boo-hoo.


Sucks to be him.


:ols: i agree


the guy doesn't like that his brother was beaten badly while in custody? Then he should tell his brother not to act like an idiot while he has his freedom.


stone him....


I agree with the general sentiment -- it's to be expected that the guy is going to get roughed up in custody by Iraqi police. No surprise there.

It would be nice if our ideas of civil society at some point filter down to the Iraqis; but I'm not holding my breath for it to happen. And neither am I losing any sleep over his plight.


Wow, he got off this easy.


It is a bit of a improvement over being thrown off a building,shot in the head, or having your whole family killed along with you....slackers;)

Now I see 7 posts agreeing with his treatment, and one saying that it was foreseeable, but regrettable.

Please, tell me. Which of those posts I've quoted do you feel I've mis-interpreted as approving?

[Redskins Diehard]

My post, complaining about "cheering" was the 12th post in the thread. Meaning there were 11 posts preceding mine. Of those 11 posts, 3 said absolutely nothing (for one reason or another.)

Here, in their entirety, are the 8 posts which expressed an opinion on the man's being beaten:



Now I see 7 posts agreeing with his treatment, and one saying that it was foreseeable, but regrettable.

Please, tell me. Which of those posts I've quoted do you feel I've mis-interpreted as approving?
You've misinterpreted DeanCollins...that would be my bet

[twa]

It means I don't tend to let my emotions get overly involved when I am discussing the reality of certain situations.

But,but you're a female....ain't that mandatory or something?






:D :movefast:

[Califan007]

Does this need to be repeated?...Kinda seems like maybe it does:


Zaidi's brother said on Tuesday he was hit in the head with a rifle butt and had an arm broken in the chaos that broke out after he threw his shoes at Bush and was leapt on by Iraqi security officers and U.S. secret service agents.
If this is true, then this guy was NOT merely handcuffed, then taken to some isolated cell where he was pummelled in private...his injuries occurred while he was being subdued in the chaos he helped create.

Is that semantics, or does that make a realistic difference?

[Larry]

I can't believe people are even arguing about this situation and legitimately trying to apply U.S. standards to the Iraqi prison system.

I can't believe that people are claiming that when something is wrong, but it's done in the Iraqi prison system, then it becomes a Right.

For example, I get the impression that a lot of people on ES seem to feel that we in the US had the perfect right to object to how the Iraqi prison system worked before we invaded.

[Larry]

I can't believe they blindly accept second hand info from the guys brother:)

Not everyone did.


Not gonna be surprised if this beating didn't actually happen.

:)

[sacase]

This guy is lucky he is not dead. I would be suprised if a beating was all he got. He EMBARRASED the Iraqi government, which happens to be against the law. They were hosting the US president and were helping provide security to him. He is in for a bad time.

Frankly I don't care what happens to him. He insulted the United States of America and he is going to get everything he deserved by his actions. He had better be thankful that he is not in Saudi....

[Geoff_K]

Not gonna be surprised if this beating didn't actually happen.

Not gonna be surprised if it did.

I am surprised, and very disappointed, at the number of people who are cheering it.


when you attack the President (weather you like him or not) you attack us ALL. I think he got about what he deserved, though 2 to 7 years is a little steep since he missed. The roughing up, well ... pffft .. dont be a schmuck and you wont get thumped by the police .. hell he LIVES here, what did he think would happen to him ???

[Larry]

Zaidi's brother said on Tuesday he was hit in the head with a rifle butt and had an arm broken in the chaos that broke out after he threw his shoes at Bush and was leapt on by Iraqi security officers and U.S. secret service agents.

Hey, (IMO), if it happened "in the heat of them moment", then my opinion goes from "Regrettable, but not really surprising", to "doodoo occurs".

[Larry]

One other point that I figure ought to be said...

This dude knew it was coming. He knew if he threw that shoe he would be shot or arrested and if arrested that he probably wouldn't be treated well. He probably also knew that he would be a hero to some. I think it's important to acknowledge that he did this knowing what would happen to him. You can respect that kind of bravery, even if it offensive stupidity.

I think in fact I'm almost certain that he knew he would not enjoy the aftermath of this and I bet there's a part of him and his brother that is quite shocked he's alive. Shame on his brother though. If you do something like this you take what's coming to you. His brother's whining (defense?) tarnishes the act.

And from the reporter's... from that Iraqi's point of view this was an act of bravery and conviction and his only opportunity to spit in the face of a man he obviously despised.

Well, you got to spit in a U.S. President's face. Now, deal with the consequences. They likely won't be kind. And I'm sure he knows that he has only faced the beginning of his ordeal.

Oh, agreed.

Part of civil disobedience as a form of protest is taking the consequences.

[Special K]

Please, tell me. Which of those posts I've quoted do you feel I've mis-interpreted as approving?
CJ = Who cares
SPJ = Who cares
SF89 = One post that you defnitely could have interpretted as "cheerful," I'll give you that one.
Drop = The guy shouldn't have acted like an idiot...who cares
DC = You couldn't have seriously quoted that one...come on.
JP = It's expected; "not losing any sleep" = WHO CARES
Truman = "Wow, he got off easy" Um...that's actually pretty accurate, he did get off "easy."
TWA = Smart ass remark...again, who cares.
So basically, every single post save one, your interpretation can be questioned. You say they're "cheerful" about the punishment. I interpret them as saying "who cares"...pretty different interpretations. It's interesting that you frequently call out others on their "misinterpretations," but can't even admit that your "interpretation" is subject to argument.



But,but you're a female....ain't that mandatory or something?

:D :movefast:
:moon:

[Larry]

Sure, for the most part we don't officially beat up prisoners (although I'm sure that does happen sometimes), but how many times have we predicted (knowingly, gleefully, righteously) what was about to happen to a child molestor or a rapist when they were incarcerated in an American jail. Isn't there an expectation that the guards turn a blind eye and we expect prisoners to exact a pound of flesh? Isn't that a very similar beast?

And how many times have I pointed out that that's wrong?

That (IMO) child rapists deserve to be jailed. That in some cases, they deserve to be executed.

But that there is no crime for which being raped is justice?

[Larry]

It's interesting that you frequently call out others on their "misinterpretations," but can't even admit that your "interpretation" is subject to argument.

It's interesting that you feel entitled to tell me that I can't admit that my opinion is subject to argument, when responding to my post, in which I invite you to provide your argument.

[Burgold]

I don't keep track. I'm with you on the idealist side. I'm not a big believer in vengence. All I'm saying is that in America, we do this as well... we just allow it to be done versus doing it ourselves.

[twa]

:moon:

ols...be careful with that,I ain't had none in awhile.:silly:

[Special K]

Does this need to be repeated?...Kinda seems like maybe it does:
If this is true, then this guy was NOT merely handcuffed, then taken to some isolated cell where he was pummelled in private...his injuries occurred while he was being subdued in the chaos he helped create.

Is that semantics, or does that make a realistic difference?
Oh yeah, definitely semantics........


I can't believe that people are claiming that when something is wrong, but it's done in the Iraqi prison system, then it becomes a Right.
I can't believe you are interpretting anything I say as this being "right." How many times should I say I don't "condone" this or beating someone is "wrong" for you to get that I don't think this is a good thing? :doh:



Part of civil disobedience as a form of protest is taking the consequences.
So why are you arguing with people about this? You just admitted that the guy knew what the consequences of his actions were. I think that is what some of the posters are saying in this thread (at least I am). Not that this is "right," but right now, in the current Iraqi system, people who pull these types of stunts know exactly what their "punishment" is.

I'm not arguing whether this is right or wrong. Clearly, I think this is wrong as I have said several times...maybe because I put the "LOL" at the being of my first post you thought I was laughing at this man's situation when in reality, I'm kinda of chuckling at the fact that you are so quick to jump on posters who are essentially saying "who cares" or "this is normal in these types of countries."

[Special K]

I agree, Keeastman and I think what some of us are doing is a little dishonest or naive. Sure, for the most part we don't officially beat up prisoners (although I'm sure that does happen sometimes), but how many times have we predicted (knowingly, gleefully, righteously) what was about to happen to a child molestor or a rapist when they were incarcerated in an American jail. Isn't there an expectation that the guards turn a blind eye and we expect prisoners to exact a pound of flesh? Isn't that a very similar beast?
I understand and in some cases I do think it is a similar beast, but I also can see those who argue it's an entirely different beast. I think some of our reactions regarding harsh punishment are heightened when an innocent child is the victim of sexual abuse. Not saying that that's right or wrong, that's a personal decision. I also can't honestly say I'd know what I'd want to happen to a person who abused my child like that because I don't have any children.

I can say in a thread a few weeks back I was against an Afghan man getting acid poured into his eyes as a punishment for blinding a woman who rebuked his advances with acid. Sure, I definitely don't agree with that type of punishment, but I also realize that type of retribution is common throughout that region as well as many, many others. It sucks and I am against torture like that, but I'm not shocked when I hear stories like that and I realize that that system has been in place for ages and likely will continue for ages...I get really annoyed at this saying usually, but here I kinda think it fits "it is what it is."

[Special K]

It's interesting that you feel entitled to tell me that I can't admit that my opinion is subject to argument, when responding to my post, in which I invite you to provide your argument.
I did provide a specific point-by-point argument against every quote you threw out there. I said that's your interpretation of what they meant, there are alternate interpretations...which I so kindly listed.

[Burgold]

I can say in a thread a few weeks back I was against an Afghan man getting acid poured into his eyes as a punishment for blinding a woman who rebuked his advances with acid. Sure, I definitely don't agree with that type of punishment, but I also realize that type of retribution is common throughout that region as well as many, many others. It sucks and I am against torture like that, but I'm not shocked when I hear stories like that and I realize that that system has been in place for ages and likely will continue for ages...I get really annoyed at this saying usually, but here I kinda think it fits "it is what it is."

I can say that a number of the things I see and read about both here and abroad do shock me. Maybe it's that I hope for the best in mankind, but whether it's a woman being beheaded for the crime of allowing herself to get raped or in America people throwing their babies into dumpsters and walking away... these things tug at my soul. I expect that we should be better than this. By now, we should be. We've had so many generations to grow up and get a clue. And still, too many suckle at hate, pettiness, and selfishness.

It's very weird being able to be not surprised and shocked simultaneously. Sometimes, this world gets to me.

(I knew I shouldn't have read the stupid Hitler thread)

[Special K]

I can say that a number of the things I see and read about both here and abroad do shock me. Maybe it's that I hope for the best in mankind, but whether it's a woman being beheaded for the crime of allowing herself to get raped or in America people throwing their babies into dumpsters and walking away... these things tug at my soul. I expect that we should be better than this. By now, we should be. We've had so many generations to grow up and get a clue. And still, too many suckle at hate, pettiness, and selfishness.

It's very weird being able to be not surprised and shocked simultaneously. Sometimes, this world gets to me.
I agree with you here. While I'm not shocked by much anymore (which is really sad since I'm still in my frickin 20's) and I try to look at everything analytically and keep emotions out of my immediate decision making as much as possible, I don't know of many non-sociopathic humans who aren't on some level moved by their sense of moral responsibility or social conscience when presented with situations we feel are wrong.

[Burgold]

Well, it's important for you not to be "shocked" I remember when I worked in a psychiatric ward how important that analytical skill was. How necessary to survival that ability to block and wall off certain emotional realities were. Luckily, I don't do much of the type of reporting that forces me to have to use those skills, but those walls are very important defense mechanisms if you are going to last in your field.

[Drop]

He's accused of doing something that, if he's been really lucky, might have left a bruise.

That's really minimalizing the situation. Sure it's a long shot....but the president could have had serious and/or permanent eye damage if that shoe had hit him just right.

Not saying it was likely, but it could occur. And honestly, it isn't THAT far-fetched. Much stranger things have happened.

[Larry]

That's really minimalizing the situation. Sure it's a long shot....but the president could have had serious and/or permanent eye damage if that shoe had hit him just right.

Not saying it was likely, but it could occur. And honestly, it isn't THAT far-fetched. Much stranger things have happened.

"You could put somebody's eye out with that!"

(Just joking. I was actually considering using that line in my post.)