PDA

View Full Version : Obama’s War



SnyderShrugged
December-19th-2008, 05:37 PM
Obama’s War
Posted by Patrick J. Buchanan on December 19, 2008

Just two months after the twin towers fell, the armies of the Northern Alliance marched into Kabul. The Taliban fled.

The triumph was total in the “splendid little war” that had cost one U.S. casualty. Or so it seemed. Yet, last month, the war against the Taliban entered its eighth year, the second longest war in our history, and America and NATO have never been nearer to strategic defeat.

So critical is the situation that Defense Secretary Robert Gates, in Kandahar last week, promised rapid deployment, before any Taliban spring offensive, of two and perhaps three combat brigades of the 20,000 troops requested by Gen. David McKiernan. The first 4,000, from the 10th Mountain, are expected in January.

With 34,000 U.S. soldiers already in country, half under NATO command, the 20,000 will increase U.S. forces there to 54,000, a 60 percent ratcheting up. Shades of LBJ, 1964-65. Afghanistan is going to be Obama’s War. And upon its outcome will hang the fate of his presidency. Has he thought this through?

How do we win this war, if by winning we mean establishing a pro-Western democratic government in control of the country that has the support of the people and loyalty of an Afghan army strong enough to defend the nation from a resurgent Taliban?

We are further from that goal going into 2009 than we were five years ago.

What are the long-term prospects for any such success?

Each year, the supply of opium out of Afghanistan, from which most of the world’s heroin comes, sets a new record. Payoffs by narcotics traffickers are corrupting the government. The fanatically devout Taliban had eradicated the drug trade, but is now abetting the drug lords in return for money for weapons to kill the Americans.

Militarily, the Taliban forces are stronger than they have been since 2001, moving out of the south and east and infesting half the country. They have sanctuaries in Pakistan and virtually ring Kabul.

U.S. air strikes have killed so many Afghan civilians that President Karzai, who controls little more than Kabul, has begun to condemn the U.S. attacks. Predator attacks on Taliban and al-Qaida in Pakistan have inflamed the population there.

And can pinprick air strikes win a war of this magnitude?

The supply line for our troops in Afghanistan, which runs from Karachi up to Peshawar through the Khyber Pass to Kabul, is now a perilous passage. Four times this month, U.S. transport depots in Pakistan have been attacked, with hundred of vehicles destroyed.

Before arriving in Kandahar, Gates spoke grimly of a “sustained commitment for some protracted period of time. How many years that is, and how many troops that is ... nobody knows.”

Gen. McKiernan says it will be at least three or four years before the Afghan army and police can handle the Taliban.

But why does it take a dozen years to get an Afghan army up to where it can defend the people and regime against a Taliban return? Why do our Afghans seem less disposed to fight and die for democracy than the Taliban are to fight and die for theocracy? Does their God, Allah, command a deeper love and loyalty than our god, democracy?

McKiernan says the situation may get worse before it gets better. Gates compares Afghanistan to the Cold War. “(W)e are in many respects in an ideological conflict with violent extremists. ... The last ideological conflict we were in lasted about 45 years.”

That would truly be, in Donald Rumsfeld’s phrase, “a long, hard slog.”

America, without debate, is about to invest blood and treasure, indefinitely, in a war to which no end seems remotely in sight, if the commanding general is talking about four years at least and the now-and-future war minister is talking about four decades.

What is there to win in Afghanistan to justify doubling down our investment? If our vital interest is to deny a sanctuary there to al-Qaida, do we have to build a new Afghanistan to accomplish that? Did not al-Qaida depart years ago for a new sanctuary in Pakistan?

What hope is there of creating in this tribal land a democracy committed to freedom, equality and human rights that Afghans have never known? What is the expectation that 54,000 or 75,000 U.S. troops can crush an insurgency that enjoys a privileged sanctuary to which it can return, to rest, recuperate and recruit for next year’s offensive?

Of all the lands of the earth, Afghanistan has been among the least hospitable to foreigners who come to rule, or to teach them how they should rule themselves.

Would Dwight D. Eisenhower--who settled for the status quo ante in Korea, an armistice at the line of scrimmage--commit his country to such an open-ended war? Would Richard Nixon? Would Ronald Reagan?

Hard to believe. George W. Bush would. But did not America vote against Bush? Why is America getting seamless continuity when it voted for significant change?

http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/obamas_war1/

SnyderShrugged
December-19th-2008, 05:48 PM
Why are our troops still there?

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 05:54 PM
Don't have the energy tonight to list the reasons as to why I believe President Elect Obama will be making a mistake by having an Afghan "surge"

I really do think it is time to pull out of there and just keep a watchful eye.

If anything flares up, send the cruise missles

Burgold
December-19th-2008, 05:54 PM
Afghanistan makes some sense because the Taliban and Al Qaeda are dangerous and basically shouldn't be handed a nation to run and fund their operations. It's a shame we diverted so much attention into Iraq that we allowed the Taliban to pretty much fully recover. Seems we screwed up in Afghanistan twice now. First time, following the break up of the Soviet Union and again now.

I'll defer to others on tactics, but I still think we blew it allowing the cancer to fester, spread and come back virulently.

SnyderShrugged
December-19th-2008, 06:05 PM
Afghanistan makes some sense because the Taliban and Al Qaeda are dangerous and basically shouldn't be handed a nation to run and fund their operations. It's a shame we diverted so much attention into Iraq that we allowed the Taliban to pretty much fully recover. Seems we screwed up in Afghanistan twice now. First time, following the break up of the Soviet Union and again now.

I'll defer to others on tactics, but I still think we blew it allowing the cancer to fester, spread and come back virulently.

I dont think that anything permanent can ever be accomplished there. The tribal culture is just too f'ed up and the violent history can never be overcome.

This a big change of heart for me for the past couple of years. I read a few good books on the subject that led me to it. (Imperial Hubris)

Burgold
December-19th-2008, 06:28 PM
You may be right. All I know is that we went in there twice and blew the **** out of everything (or helped the Afghans in the conflict with the Soviets to blow the **** out of everything) and then basically left without helping them to pick up the pieces. I'm sure that's an incredible oversimplification... but the bleeding liberal in me and the idealist in me think that there has to be a way through prevention and education to create something (that works within their cultural dynamics) that would slow or end the cycle over there.

Mind you, it's that kind of thinking that got us in trouble in Iraq, but it just feels like we do step 1 (kicking the **** out of our enemies) really well, but either screw up or neglect steps 2-10.

PeterMP
December-19th-2008, 06:51 PM
I'm of the opinion it can be done, but you're looking at 300,000+ troops for the next five years, and I don't see the majority of the people in this country getting behind that kind of commitment.

PeterMP
December-19th-2008, 06:53 PM
Afghanistan makes some sense because the Taliban and Al Qaeda are dangerous and basically shouldn't be handed a nation to run and fund their operations. It's a shame we diverted so much attention into Iraq that we allowed the Taliban to pretty much fully recover. Seems we screwed up in Afghanistan twice now. First time, following the break up of the Soviet Union and again now.

Using that kind of logic, we should also be in most of the other central Asian countries, the middle east, and N. Africa attempting to do the samething (if we add other similar groups (e.g. drug cartels) to the list we can add most of the rest of Africa and S. and Central America)).

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 06:54 PM
I'm of the opinion it can be done, but you're looking at 300,000+ troops for the next five years, and I don't see the majority of the people in this country getting behind that kind of commitment.


It'll take even more.

We are talking 600k troops over 50 years to really acomplish what we hope to accomplish

Ignatius J.
December-19th-2008, 06:59 PM
I think that ole' patty McB is being more than just a little bit disingenuous here.

"But did not America vote against Bush? Why is America getting seamless continuity when it voted for significant change? "

Is a brazen misrepresentation of facts and the result of a seemingly deaf ear. Obama made clear his military priorities. He was not against all wars, just the war in Iraq. Obama, more than any politician running for office in 2008, made clear for two years straight, in one of the longest elections ever known to man, that he would be pursuing a serious escalation of combat operations in Afghanistan. Anyone who voted for him knows that. Pat Buchanan is right about one thing, Afghanistan will be Obama's war. History will judge him based on the result of that war and on his ability to steer us out of the current recession, just as history will largely judge Bush on the war in Iraq and his policies which drove us to this recession.

I think Obama is up to the task and that Afghanistan has always been the more winnable war. History alone will be the judge.

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 07:06 PM
\

I think Obama is up to the task and that Afghanistan has always been the more winnable war. History alone will be the judge.

I agree with everything you said except this line

I have no clue why anyone thinks Afghanistan is "winnable" or there is anything to win

Strategically its a dead end. It is landlocked. Our supply lines are being attacked daily in Peshewar, a place we have no control

The people are comepletely uneducated there. To an extreme. You don't know the kind of ignorance that exists there because schools have never been built

Imagine being so ignorant you have no dreams or aspirations. Yea, thats Afghanistan for you right there

In Iraq we have easy access to the sea. Unfettered supply lines into Iraq. An educated populace with infrastructure.

In Afghanistan we have none of that, just a population that wants to be left alone and where 80 percent of the country only knows war

So I am always confused as to why it is the "good" war or the "winnable" war

PeterMP
December-19th-2008, 07:22 PM
It'll take even more.

We are talking 600k troops over 50 years to really acomplish what we hope to accomplish

I don't think it'll take 50 years at that troop level. It is possible for a period of time you'll need that troop level. It depends on if you are able to isolate Afghanistan or you will need to essentially deal with all the other "-stans" at the sametime.

If you can't isolate Afghanistan and deal with it independently w/ about 400,000, I could see where it might even be better to just take on the whole region in which case I could easily see it going to 600,000+.

The other way it seems to me to address this is to pick maybe two small areas that have the resources/background to be successful, concentrate our efforts there (essentially forget the rest of the country, but use mostly air power to prevent the real building of a terrorist network), make them stable/successful, and hope things expand from there.

Hubbs
December-19th-2008, 07:25 PM
The other way it seems to me to address this is to pick maybe two small areas that have the resources/background to be successful, concentrate our efforts there (essentially forget the rest of the country, but use mostly air power to prevent the real building of a terrorist network), make them stable/successful, and hope things expand from there.

I wonder if this would be feasible.

PeterMP
December-19th-2008, 07:52 PM
I wonder if this would be feasible.

Well, realistically, historically it is how most nations were formed (not w/ an exterior nation providing force to ensure security, but the general idea). In this day and age w/ mortars and missles I don't know if it would still work.

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 10:17 PM
If you can't isolate Afghanistan and deal with it independently w/ about 400,000, I could see where it might even be better to just take on the whole region in which case I could easily see it going to 600,000+.

.

The problem is though, how do we keep them supplied?

The Soviets struggled with this and they were right next door and could walk in. We have to rely on the Pakistani's

NATO convoys are under attack from Karachi now. I have no clue how we'd keep such a large army suppled

twa
December-19th-2008, 10:29 PM
The problem is though, how do we keep them supplied?

The Soviets struggled with this and they were right next door and could walk in. We have to rely on the Pakistani's

NATO convoys are under attack from Karachi now. I have no clue how we'd keep such a large army suppled

They are already negotiating alternative routes through Russia and Tajikistan (I believe,or maybe Turkmenistan)
but it won't be cheap,nor easy.

Koolblue13
December-19th-2008, 10:31 PM
With SA essentially kicking our military out, it's a good thing we worked so hard to establish bases in Iraq to jump into Afghanistan with. That is still the only reason I can see to invade there.

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 10:33 PM
With SA essentially kicking our military out, it's a good thing we worked so hard to establish bases in Iraq to jump into Afghanistan with. That is still the only reason I can see to invade there.

Well Iran is in the way of Afghanistan and Iraq :)

Although I am still perplexed as to why we would not establish permanent bases in Iraq, especially with us leaving SA

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 10:35 PM
They are already negotiating alternative routes through Russia and Tajikistan (I believe,or maybe Turkmenistan)
but it won't be cheap,nor easy.

Yup that'll be very difficult.

The advantage with Pakistan is you just get the supplies via the Arabian Sea into Karachi, move them up to Peshewar then boom right through the Khyber Pass

Well that is pretty dangerous right now

Koolblue13
December-19th-2008, 10:37 PM
Well Iran is in the way of Afghanistan and Iraq :)

Although I am still perplexed as to why we would not establish permanent bases in Iraq, especially with us leaving SA

I've seen the map. Iraq is still a bit closer than say, Korea or Germany.:)

There is no way we do anything in Afghanistan without Iraq being useful.

I was blasted by several folks in this thread last year, when I said I had total faith that our military could invade and destroy the evil folks in Afghanistan.

SkinsHokieFan
December-19th-2008, 10:40 PM
I've seen the map. Iraq is still a bit closer than say, Korea or Germany.:)

There is no way we do anything in Afghanistan without Iraq being useful.

I was blasted by several folks in this thread last year, when I said I had total faith that our military could invade and destroy the evil folks in Afghanistan.

I got no doubt we can do that either.

It is that whole what do we do after we win the war thing that gets in the way?

We destroyed the Taliban and AQ back in 2001. There are more and more reports of a Taliban and AQ split.

If the Taliban wants to be left alone and live in the 9th century, I say let em and warn them that if they harbor any terrorists we'll destroy them again.

They stay in Afghanistan, don't bother the gov't of Pakistan and don't let anyone camp out there and we'll leave you alone. You mess around again, we use nukes this time

Koolblue13
December-19th-2008, 10:43 PM
Sounds great. I would completely back somebody doing that.

Then we bring home our military and use them to watch our borders and figure out who the hell is here.

PeterMP
December-19th-2008, 10:46 PM
The problem is though, how do we keep them supplied?

The Soviets struggled with this and they were right next door and could walk in. We have to rely on the Pakistani's

NATO convoys are under attack from Karachi now. I have no clue how we'd keep such a large army suppled

That's above my pay grade ;).

I'd look at finding somebody, beyond Pakistan, in the region that would let you use their country as a base AND wouldn't care if you violated other people's air space out of said bases w/o permission, and then tell the countries surrounding Afghanistan, 'We are going to come through, and you can benefit from it or you can try and stop us.'

As long as you're dependent upon Pakistan, you are dependent upon the political ramifications. I don't think you can fix the situation being dependent upon Pakistan, unless you do something w/ Pakistan first.

DCSaints_fan
December-19th-2008, 11:32 PM
Maybe we can divide it up with the Russians.