Jason Campbell: a deeper look into his numbers this season [Archive] - Page 2

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

January-1st-2009, 06:00 PM

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 06:05 PM

But how do you know Colt won't just tear it up?

No one know that with certainty, but I see the same thing Jim Zorn sees with Colt. I see problems with his mechanics that will likely limit him at the NFL level. Zorn is using his experience to weigh probabilities. He thinks Colt needs work before he's ready. My best guess as a well-informed fan is that he's right.

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

January-1st-2009, 06:08 PM

The standard should be the same for all players, but for some reason, JC seems to have protective status. I'd be happy to discuss other players as well, but this thread was about JC.

A couple of the more well-known JC boosters tried to insinuate a racial aspect to some criticism but I actually think some people are engaging in the same behavior that Coach Yost was in Remember the Titans. Basically, Boone called him out because he was coddling the black players on the team, which undermined Boone's authority but more importantly, taught those kids all the wrong lessons and would not prepare them for life in the real world.

It's not malicious at all but it's a form of paternalism and I think I see it with a lot of the QBs who happen to be black in the league, they have more defenders because people are overreacting to the undue or excessive criticism that black players at the position have received in the past. Except Philly. There, I often detected something just beneath the surface, especially back when Randall Cunningham played.

But this is not Philly and Jason Campbell isn't remotely as talented as Randall Cunningham. Got a slow release like him, though.

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

January-1st-2009, 06:08 PM

No one know that with certainty, but I see the same thing Jim Zorn sees with Colt. I see problems with his mechanics that will likely limit him at the NFL level. Zorn is using his experience to weigh probabilities. He thinks Colt needs work before he's ready. My best guess as a well-informed fan is that he's right.

I can agree on footwork. But how much has Philip Rivers release point changed?

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 06:10 PM

Bottom line, production & results are not there. There's several QB's who are throwing for 25+ td's and scoring often. Us, not so much.
Go ahead and give us some excuses.

Skins defense posted a #4 ranking, best in years, and our offense totally took a dump. Stats be damned, Campbell didn't produce enough for us to score & win.

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 06:13 PM

Sad to see Minny in the playoffs because they essentially benched their struggling 'future QB' (who is younger than Campbell) because they felt like they had the chance to make the playoffs and then when Frerotte got hurt--Tarvaris was able to use that time away on the bench to refocus or make some improvements and is over 114 QB rating the last 4 games.

Why Campbell is more fragile than Jackson, I don't know. Jackson could very well regain his starting spot for good with a decent showing in the playoffs. No one likes getting benched, but at SOME point during this season, campbell should have taken up the clipboard and watched Todd operate the offense.

It could be that Todd doesn't look much better but is able to properly anticipate 2-3 more throws a game that make all the difference.

Minny wasn't even a playoff team but they felt like they were close and went for it and it paid off. We stuck with the same guy and watched our season end. Pretty much what WOULD have happend LAST YEAR to us had fate not intervened with an injury.

Doesn't that give anyone pause, make anyone upset? We could be watching a playoff game or two with a real QB (even if we didn't keep Todd but brought in Pennington.) We have the guys to do it because we had done it 2 of 3 years. Screw losing to rebuild, see how far you can go, then insert your new guys as needed.

Well said Ghost. The difference, in my opinion which seems to be supported by various other opinions if not facts, is that our owner is the one calling the shots on JC. There are a couple other threads with posts with more details, so I won't get into all here, but Minn's owner is probably not deciding who their starting QB should be.

Don't forget - McNabb was benched too. And since that benching, the Eagles and McNabb have played better (the exception being the Redskins game). Zorn's hands are tied, unfortunately, to JC.

There are certain QBs who have earned their right by performance and/or leading their team to the playoffs who are annointed starters without competition. But JC has to be the worse annointed starting QB in the NFL (no, I'm not going to do a statistical analysis to back that feeling up people!). There just is no logical reason to grant JC such status when he hasn't done anything to earn it.

I think most Redskins fans at this point just want an open competition. And if JC wins the job, that can only make him and the team better.

Hail,

H

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 06:22 PM

and then what does that tell you about the level of confidence a coach has in his first round draft pick that he can't take the diapers off of him even his third season?

It tells me nothing at all because the WCO is a dink and dunk offense.

Campbell ranked in the top 10 in the league for passing attempts this year. If we were running a dink and dunk system, we wouldn't attempt so many passes.

How does the number of pass attempts tell us anything about the type of passes the scheme aims for?

Besides, that's a deceptive stat. The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 06:30 PM

Besides, that's a deceptive stat. The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.

I think thats more telling of our defense than anything.

I forget which game it was, but our D forced something like 6 three and outs in a row, and our offense failed to capitalize on any of them

zoony

January-1st-2009, 06:32 PM

Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.

or that we really had no explosiveness whatsoever. Especially when you couple that stat with points scored. Zorn's goal is to score points, not control the ball. He's been very plain about it. That the offense is entirely incapable of scoring points and creating big plays is an indictment of the players in it. (not the scheme, b/c we've seen almost the exact same scheme be successful in other places)

Or that our defense forced more 3&outs than any other D. (pretty sure I saw this. If we weren't 1 we were up there)

Remember OF- these things are inter-related :D

SkinsNumberOne

January-1st-2009, 06:33 PM

It tells me nothing at all because the WCO is a dink and dunk offense.

How does the number of pass attempts tell us anything about the type of passes the scheme aims for?

Besides, that's a deceptive stat. The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.
It's probably proof of that and/or that in general we had an effective defense that got the other team's offense off the field in relatively short order. I think that we saw flashes of both - and unfortunately in the second half of the season they rarely clicked at the same time. Our offense would put it together, and our defense would give up 8-minute drives or crucial scoring drives. At other times, we'd see volleys of short possessions in high punt-games. That kind of disconnect of team chemistry seemed to happen more and more as the season wore on.

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 06:33 PM

A couple of the more well-known JC boosters tried to insinuate a racial aspect to some criticism but I actually think some people are engaging in the same behavior that Coach Yost was in Remember the Titans. Basically, Boone called him out because he was coddling the black players on the team, which undermined Boone's authority but more importantly, taught those kids all the wrong lessons and would not prepare them for life in the real world.

It's not malicious at all but it's a form of paternalism and I think I see it with a lot of the QBs who happen to be black in the league, they have more defenders because people are overreacting to the undue or excessive criticism that black players at the position have received in the past. Except Philly. There, I often detected something just beneath the surface, especially back when Randall Cunningham played.

But this is not Philly and Jason Campbell isn't remotely as talented as Randall Cunningham. Got a slow release like him, though.

Interesting point Ghost. So you think there are so many people defending JC because of his race? You know what, I think I can understand that. As a white guy, I don't identify with other white people and think that if some white guy fails it reflects poorly upon my race and therefore don't cheer for them any more or less that I do anyone else, especially when the fate of my team rests in their hands! But, since there is a history (though I believe we've gone well past this now) of some people believing people of color cannot perform certain jobs like play QB, I can see how people could be sensitive to the subject. Guys like Doug Williams, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, McNabb, Cunningham, and several others should have put to rest any ill conceived notions about African American QBs.

But man, I really wish we could get beyond that. Character, not color, or in this case, performance, not color. And I mean that regardless of race.

I just want the Redskins to win and I'm convinced it won't happen with JC.

Hail,

H

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 06:35 PM

Oh god please let us not get the race card crap started in this thead

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 06:35 PM

.....The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.Or our D forced a lot of 3 an outs

We had just as many Kickoff returns as our opponents (roughly same amount of scores)

But

We had more Punt returns (45) then our opponents (33)....meaning our D stopped the opponents more

So

While we score about as often as our opponents.....our D helped out our Offense more than our opponents

I think I did this right

http://www.nfl.com/teams/washingtonredskins/statistics?team=WAS

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 06:37 PM

Or our D forced a lot of 3 an outs

We had just as many Kickoff returns as our opponents (roughly same amount of scores)

But

We had more Punt returns (45) then our opponents (33)....meaning our D stopped the opponents more

So

While we score about as often as our opponents.....our D helped out our Offense more than our opponents

I think I did this right

Pretty much. It seemed like the only time we could score the last few games was when our D set us up with great field position

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 06:37 PM

I can agree on footwork. But how much has Philip Rivers release point changed?

Colt and Rivers are two very different cases. Norv's decided to leave Rivers alone because he can make all the throws, but he has gone through some patches of inconsistency when he couldn't even hit a receiver in the flat. That could be the result of that odd delivery. I don't know.

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 06:38 PM

The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.

Then where was the production? Results?
Stats are meaningless if you can't score and produce from them.
Our offense failed us this year. Period.

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 06:41 PM

Zorn's goal is to score points, not control the ball.

Walsh wanted to do both. That's what the WCO does.

No Excuses

January-1st-2009, 06:49 PM

It tells me nothing at all because the WCO is a dink and dunk offense.

How does the number of pass attempts tell us anything about the type of passes the scheme aims for?

Besides, that's a deceptive stat. The Skins were #10 in pass attempts and #8 in rushes. Ranking so high in both categories is evidence that we ran more offensive plays than most teams -- proof that we were an effective ball control offense.

The stat being deceptive or not is not the point. The point is that whatever lead to it, we passed the ball this year. Teams who passed as much as us had QB's who threw TD's in the 20s. Campbell and David Garrard were the only ones who didn't. That's ineffectiveness at its best. Now how you look at these stats is up to you. Ball control is only good when it leads to points.

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 06:52 PM

Then where was the production? Results?
Stats are meaningless if you can't score and produce from them.
Our offense failed us this year. Period.

We saw different games.

Eight wins were the result. That's not bad for the first year in an offense without the help of the big receivers the WCO needs to be efficient. By controlling the ball and playing the field position game well, the offense helped the defense keep the score down. In 2009, we need to get into the end zone more often.

Oldfan

January-1st-2009, 07:01 PM

The stat being deceptive or not is not the point. The point is that whatever lead to it, we passed the ball this year. Teams who passed as much as us had QB's who threw TD's in the 20s. Campbell and David Garrard were the only ones who didn't. That's ineffectiveness at its best. Now how you look at these stats is up to you. Ball control is only good when it leads to points. Our ball control only worked against us because we failed to score and put points up, while wasting a lot of time.

You're wrong. Moving the chains and maintaining ball control is valuable even if you don't rack up scores because it limits the other teams opportunities to score. A 10 - 3 win counts just as much as a 35 - 28 win.

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 07:02 PM

.....By controlling the ball and playing the field position game well, the offense helped the defense keep the score down.......Nope

The defense helped the offense more

The offense was unproductive DESPITE the defense setting them up more often then opponents

We scored LESS than our opponents....BUT had the ball MORE often
It shows how pathetic our offense was

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 07:08 PM

We saw different games.

Eight wins were the result. That's not bad for the first year in an offense without the help of the big receivers the WCO needs to be efficient. By controlling the ball and playing the field position game well, the offense helped the defense keep the score down. In 2009, we need to get into the end zone more often.

If you believe eight wins is an accomplishment, we don't agree. There were four new head coaches in the league, the other three with new QB's to the team also, then us. Those other three teams are in the playoffs while we are discussing "what happened" to the Skins.

I think you need to rephase the hightlighted. The defense helped keep opposing teams down which should have allowed the our offense to score and win. It didn't happen often enough.

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 07:10 PM

Nope

The defense helped the offense more

The offense was unproductive DESPITE the defense setting them up more often then opponents

We scored LESS than our opponents....BUT had the ball MORE often
It shows how pathetic our offense was

BINGO!!!! :cheers:

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 07:15 PM

when you have a top-5 D and go 8-8, your winning despite your offense, not the other way around.

less points than the lions, just remember that

Skeletor The Invincible

January-1st-2009, 07:18 PM

less points than the lions, just remember that

To be absolutely fair, the Lions' offense wasn't terrible.

Their defense was their problem.

No Excuses

January-1st-2009, 07:25 PM

To be absolutely fair, the Lions' offense wasn't terrible.

Their defense was their problem.

The Lions offense started Dan Orvlosky and Daunte Culpepper with a rookie RB and a washed up Rudi Johnson. They managed to score more than us somehow.

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 07:26 PM

The Lions offense started Dan Orvlosky and Daunte Culpepper with a rookie RB and a washed up Rudi Johnson. They managed to score more than us somehow.

but...but they have Calvin Johnson!!...and, and Roy Williams!.. for half the year.... I guess

bubba9497

January-1st-2009, 07:51 PM

The Skins avg 320.0 yards per game

The lions avg 268.2 yards per game

the Skins faced 8 top 10 defenses, the Skins faced 6 top 10 scoring defenses

the lions faced 4 top 10 defenses (only 1 top 5), the lions faced 3 top 10 scoring defenses

Common opponents

Redskins

WAS 24 @ SF 27
NO 24 @ WAS 29

Lions

DET 13 @ SF 31
NO 42 @ DET 7

AAARedskin

January-1st-2009, 07:59 PM

The best part of this thread are all the card carrying members of the official "Jason Campbell Excuse Making Fan Club" becoming unglued and unhinged when faced with stats they don't like. They know that these are legit stats that the thread-maker has produced, so they go into a typical spin mode, (much like the media, when the media is trying to protect someone they have propped up) and go back to the tired old playbook of excuses like, "the O-line is the real problem," and "the play-calling is the problem," and of course they also use this one: "the Skins don't have the right people going out for passes." Oh, and of course they love this one: "well, Jason is being forced once again to learn a whole new offense." They also have attacked the thread-maker, saying that this thread is garbage, etc. It is excuse after excuse with you people isn't it? Should the Skins properly shore up (and you know they will with the draft and FA) the O-line in the off-season, what excuse will you make next season if Campbell continues to only win half of the games he starts? How many games into next season do the Skins need to play averaging 16 points per game before you agree that a change at QB is warranted? Has it ever occurred to you excuse makers that there are some QBs who get rid of the ball quicker than others? Yeah, there are some really good winning QBs that don't need 7 seconds to throw the ball for a completion. Scratching your heads yet? Huh? And why do you people think it's just fine that the other 21 starters on the roster be forced to compete for their starting jobs, but it suddenly becomes a foreign concept that you folks cannot grasp in your minds when it's suggested that an open competition for the STARTING QB JOB take place next season? For me, here's another stat that you excuse makers can chew on: it all comes down to a QB's WIN and LOSS record. That's right....does the team win, or does it lose when that guy is out there playing QB?

chow184

January-1st-2009, 07:59 PM

it has alot to do with the 20 checkdowns he throws every game, regardless of where the receivers are...

santana moss is the only deep threat on the skins roster and he normally gets doubled on deep routes. moss also had his share of drops on deep balls. last year is was jason outthrowing moss,this year it's moss dropping balls.

randle el is a joke of a starter,dude drops so many 3rd down passes you want to kick a puppy

thrash is trash as a WR,great human being though and a hard worker,he's simply not nfl calibre anymore.

devin thomas is like the last progression whenever he's on the field and the OL can't pass protect that long

malcom kelly couldn't get on the field,and when he did he dropped a deep ball by campbell

I'd like to see cooley used vertically more to stress the seams but zorn won't let cooley run anything beyond 10 yards. cooley only runs 8 yard hitches and screens now so it seems....zorn won't flex cooley out to WR anymore either.

so yeah who is campbell supposed to throw the ball deep to again?

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 08:09 PM

santana moss is the only deep threat on the skins roster and he normally gets doubled on deep routes.....Hum

Moss doubled....then someone else open?

If a tree falls in the......

Nevermind

TC > JC

AAARedskin

January-1st-2009, 08:10 PM

I am sure he is responsible for the makeup of this roster too. The aging oline, the nonexistant passrush, the lack of talent at WR position. Can i go on?
This is exactly what I am talking about. It's excuse after excuse after excuse with these people. Campbell was 5-7 last season as the starter, and 8-8 this season. When you folks all attend your official excuse making meetings, are food and beverages served?

chow184

January-1st-2009, 08:12 PM

Hum

Moss doubled....then someone else open?

If a tree falls in the......

Nevermind

TC > JC

if moss is doubled and no one else is open he checks it down

nevermind blame JC for everything he's the antichrist, James Thrash and Randle el are the best damn underrated #2 and #3 WR's in the NFL, who can honestly cover these guys? they're so fast,and their hands? jesus didn't have more perfect hands.

are you actually going to say cooley ran routes more than 10 yards down the field with any consistency?

bubba9497

January-1st-2009, 08:12 PM

chow184

January-1st-2009, 08:19 PM

"Jason Campbell Excuse Making Fan Club"?

:rotflmao:

facts aren't excues

however, the JC hater club, make up over half of the criticism, nor back up their "numbers" logically... usually leaving out important details, that changes the real meaning....

such as the lions scored more points nonsense above, when you look at the lions schedule they played were some easy defenses the Skins didn't faced, and against common opponents wasn't even close, but why let facts....err... excuses get in the way of a witch hunt :thumbsup:

like comparing campells first year in the WC to Hasselbecks first year starting in the WC after learning it for 2 years on the bench.

Campbell
16 games
506 attempts
315 completions
62.3% completed
3245 yards
6.4 YPA
13 TD's
6 INT's

Hasslebeck
13 games
321 attempts
176 completions
54.8% completed
2023 yards
6.3 YPA
7 TD's
8 INT's

hasselbeck had shaun alexander/darrell jackson in his prime and koren robinson as a rookie. robinson had a 1200 yard sophmore season. so it's not like Hass had no talent around him.

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 08:20 PM

"Jason Campbell Excuse Making Fan Club"?

:rotflmao:

facts aren't excues

however, the JC hater club, make up over half of the criticism, nor back up their "numbers" logically... usually leaving out important details, that changes the real meaning....

such as the lions scored more points nonsense above, when you look at the lions schedule they played were some easy defenses the Skins didn't faced, and against common opponents wasn't even close, but why let facts....err... excuses get in the way of a witch hunt :thumbsup:

Funny, I don't see it as a "JC Hater Club" but more of a "I Want the Redskins to Win Club."

I guess you'd rather see JC play than the Redskins win. In that case, you've probably really enjoyed the past two seasons - oh yeah, except those games when Collins played and actually won a few games.

Too bad Bubba. I thought you were a Redskins fan.

Hail,

H

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 08:20 PM

.....when you look at the lions schedule .....You mean the Lions that had a harder Strength of Schedule?

http://www.theredzone.org/strength.asp

Lions .543
Skins .523

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 08:23 PM

Are you guys actually proud of Campbell's numbers?
Do you boast to your friends how wonderful he is?

brandymac27

January-1st-2009, 08:24 PM

Funny, I don't see it as a "JC Hater Club" but more of a "I Want the Redskins to Win Club."

I guess you'd rather see JC play than the Redskins win. In that case, you've probably really enjoyed the past two seasons - oh yeah, except those games when Collins played and actually won a few games.

Too bad Bubba. I thought you were a Redskins fan.

Hail,

H

I feel the exact same way. I don't hate Jason. I just hate the fact that we LOSE when he's the QB. Sorry, but I love the REDSKINS more than I love JC. If that makes me a hater, then so be it.

chow184

January-1st-2009, 08:28 PM

You mean the Lions that had a harder Strength of Schedule?

http://www.theredzone.org/strength.asp

Lions .543
Skins .523

lions-139 opponent victories
redskins 134 opponent victories

lions 0-16
redskins 8-8

had the lions went 8-8 they would have had a weaker schedule than the skins(131 opp. victories),them sucking so horribly makes their SoS look stronger.

again you skew stats to try and make a point :doh:

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 08:32 PM

lions-139 opponent victories
redskins 134 opponent victories

lions 0-16
redskins 8-8

had the lions went 8-8 they would have had a weaker schedule than the skins(131 opp. victories),them sucking so horribly makes their SoS look stronger.

again you skew stats to try and make a point :doh:
The fact that Redskins fans have resorted to comparing us to the stinking Lions speaks volumes.

Hail,

H

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 08:35 PM

lions-139 opponent victories
redskins 134 opponent victories

lions 0-16
redskins 8-8

had the lions went 8-8 they would have had a weaker schedule than the skins(131 opp. victories),them sucking so horribly makes their SoS look stronger.

again you skew stats to try and make a point :doh:Again?.....AGAIN?

haha

From 139 to 131 (SKEWING around the skins 134)

Pretty close huh

Thanks for making my point

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 08:38 PM

lions-139 opponent victories
redskins 134 opponent victories

lions 0-16
redskins 8-8

had the lions went 8-8 they would have had a weaker schedule than the skins(131 opp. victories),them sucking so horribly makes their SoS look stronger.

again you skew stats to try and make a point :doh:

That still doesn't dismiss the fact an 0-16 team(record breaking) outscored our 8-8 Skins? Especially since they had five different QB's start games and we had Campbell take take every snap.
How on earth can that happen?

mi6

January-1st-2009, 08:40 PM

HawaiianTime

January-1st-2009, 08:42 PM

I'd like to see cooley used vertically more to stress the seams but zorn won't let cooley run anything beyond 10 yards. cooley only runs 8 yard hitches and screens now so it seems....zorn won't flex cooley out to WR anymore either.

I know you know this. Cooley is a TE. There's a reason he's a TE and not a WR. He's used as a blocker for the pass and run at times. Not a good idea....

chow184

January-1st-2009, 08:45 PM

The fact that Redskins fans have resorted to comparing us to the stinking Lions speaks volumes.

Hail,

H

speaks volumes of someones football intelligence when they place the entire blame on the QB.
when in reality there's more than enough blame to go around to the QB/OL/WR/coaches&schemes.

People only blame the QB because he's the one being broadcast into your living rooms laying on his ass or throwing his arms up in disbelief or frustration.

campbells not a finished product by any means,but some people are just so eager to win they want to do everything and try everything possible without just giving someone a chance. do you endorse the fire zorn movement? how about hiring shannahan I'm sure that would be great for the offense... another new system. some people are just retarded.

here's some facts
the skins won 8 games with JC

JC left the field for the last time in the STL game with a skins lead. how'd that end?
JC left the field for the last time with a tie score at san fran,how'd that end?

JC made mistakes in those games sure.but did he lose those games?

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 08:56 PM

speaks volumes of someones football intelligence when they place the entire blame on the QB.
when in reality there's more than enough blame to go around to the QB/OL/WR/coaches&schemes.

People only blame the QB because he's the one being broadcast into your living rooms laying on his ass or throwing his arms up in disbelief or frustration.

campbells not a finished product by any means,but some people are just so eager to win they want to do everything and try everything possible without just giving someone a chance. do you endorse the fire zorn movement? how about hiring shannahan I'm sure that would be great for the offense... another new system. some people are just retarded.

here's some facts
the skins won 8 games with JC

JC left the field for the last time in the STL game with a skins lead. how'd that end?
JC left the field for the last time with a tie score at san fran,how'd that end?

JC made mistakes in those games sure.but did he lose those games?

And when he got hurt last year, the offense clicked with Collins. The offense has been consistently stagnant under JC. And please, just save the excuses, I've heard them all. Let's judge JC like we judge all other players - performance. His peformance is average at best. His winning percentage as a starter is below average. Not good.

I don't blame all the losses on JC. I just know that he is only an average QB and as long as he's the starter, we are doomed to mediocrity. I just want to see the Redskins win.

Hail,

H

chow184

January-1st-2009, 08:59 PM

I know you know this. Cooley is a TE. There's a reason he's a TE and not a WR. He's used as a blocker for the pass and run at times. Not a good idea....

you're not very bright are you....

cooley flexed out to WR and into the slot all the time under gibbs/saunders and did a fine job of it. :doh:

http://www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d805c0e2f

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 09:00 PM

.....campbells not a finished product by any means...AGAIN

How do you Know we havn't seen JCs "A" game?

Any QB will be better with 7ft Giants for WRs, Mountains for an O-Line and a Mind reader calling the Plays

Hawken

January-1st-2009, 09:00 PM

Campbell is a SLOW QB ... He takes a long time to make defensive reads, make progressive read to identify open WRs, and in making the right throws.

He still thinks he is in college, and waits for a WR to be WIDE open before making a throw. Not only that, he locks onto ONE receiver and that limits OUR offense.

I haven't seen him lock onto a single receiver since early in the season. Also, we need to upgrade our receivers. A small speedy Moss that is double-covered does not provide much opportunity for any QB behind this leaky OL. Fixing the OL and upgrading the receivers would work wonders.

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 09:02 PM

JC made mistakes in those games sure.but did he lose those games?

He doesn't lose games but how many has he won? Team on his back won?
Nobody is saying he is entirely to blame. You speak of patience...
He's had his chance the be THE LEADER of the offense. Production and results were not there. It's high time to explore other options.

IHOPSkins

January-1st-2009, 09:08 PM

delete delete

chow184

January-1st-2009, 09:11 PM

And when he got hurt last year, the offense clicked with Collins. The offense has been consistently stagnant under JC. And please, just save the excuses, I've heard them all. Let's judge JC like we judge all other players - performance. His peformance is average at best. His winning percentage as a starter is below average. Not good.

I don't blame all the losses on JC. I just know that he is only an average QB and as long as he's the starter, we are doomed to mediocrity. I just want to see the Redskins win.

Hail,

H

campbell was an MVP candidate at week 8,then what happened?

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 09:12 PM

He doesn't lose games but how many has he won? Team on his back won?
Nobody is saying he is entirely to blame. You speak of patience...
He's had his chance the be THE LEADER of the offense. Production and results were not there. It's high time to explore other options.
Just to follow up here, we really don't know how many games JC may have lost for us. It's easy to tell when a QB throws a pick to lose a game, but how many times did JC not see a wide open WR? Or simply throw to the wrong guy? Misread a defense? Fail to get rid of the ball on time? Think about this....how many times has JC made a big play with his arm? Not many. His big plays are usually scrambles. You don't win too many games like that.

As others have mentioned, when you are at the games sitting up high, you can see receivers open frequently, but JC will check down or throw into coverage. Sometimes you get that same angle on TV as well. Those decisions often cost you games.

Hail,

H

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 09:12 PM

campbell was an MVP candidate at week 8,then what happened?

Defenses started playing us properly.

Ghost of Nibbs McPimpin

January-1st-2009, 09:13 PM

campbell was an MVP candidate at week 8,then what happened?

Mike Vick beat Green Bay in Green Bay. He was a great young QB.

What happened? (besides the dog fighting I mean.)

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 09:14 PM

campbell was an MVP candidate at week 8,then what happened?
LOL! In your mind maybe. People I heard were talking about Portis being the MVP.

I don't know, you seem to be the expert on all that is the Great JC, so you tell me, why did JC play so poorly in the second half of the year?

I guess now you'll petition the NFL to play only 8 games for now on?

Hail,

H

chow184

January-1st-2009, 09:15 PM

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 09:20 PM

:doh::doh::doh::doh::doh:

one season with the entire team in a new scheme is not a chance.

so glad campbell will get to start next season,and the ignorant masses don't get their way.

And what will you do when the Redskins go 7 - 9 and JC has not improved? Wait, I know. You'll start the "Fire Zorn" campaign.

And then the next year when we are 5 - 11 under JC, you'll start the "Fire Cowher" campaign, and on and on the excuses will go until one day, you'll start the first Hall of Fame campaign for a QB with a winning percentage of .400.

If you want the Redskins to win, you should want the best players at each position. Clearly, we do not have a good player at the QB position right now. All evidence supports that. His record, his stats, and his play.

Hail,

H

chow184

January-1st-2009, 09:26 PM

LOL! In your mind maybe. People I heard were talking about Portis being the MVP.

I don't know, you seem to be the expert on all that is the Great JC, so you tell me, why did JC play so poorly in the second half of the year?

I guess now you'll petition the NFL to play only 8 games for now on?

Hail,

H

haha wow

jaworski called campbell his midseason MVP

pete king favored portis but also mentioned campbell

as to what happened after week 8 teams focused on the redskins biggest weakness O-line, blitz the redskins because they can't protect their QB,and their OL can't run against an 8 man front. cut off the head and you kill the snake. the skins WR's were consistently blanketed. how many times did we hear on the tv that none of the WR's had separation?

what do say happened after week 8? campbell reverted to normal?

And what will you do when the Redskins go 7 - 9 and JC has not improved? Wait, I know. You'll start the "Fire Zorn" campaign.

And then the next year when we are 5 - 11 under JC, you'll start the "Fire Cowher" campaign, and on and on the excuses will go until one day, you'll start the first Hall of Fame campaign for a QB with a winning percentage of .400.

If you want the Redskins to win, you should want the best players at each position. Clearly, we do not have a good player at the QB position right now. All evidence supports that. His record, his stats, and his play.

Hail,

H

I think it's hilarious how confident you are about the redskins sucking with campbell next season.

confident enough to wager a perma ban if the skins have a winning or losing record under campbell?

HailSkinz1

January-1st-2009, 09:38 PM

haha wow

jaworski called campbell his midseason MVP

pete king favored portis but also mentioned campbell

as to what happened after week 8 teams focused on the redskins biggest weakness O-line, blitz the redskins because they can't protect their QB,and their OL can't run against an 8 man front. cut off the head and you kill the snake. the skins WR's were consistently blanketed. how many times did we hear on the tv that none of the WR's had separation?

what do say happened after week 8? campbell reverted to normal?

I think it's hilarious how confident you are about the redskins sucking with campbell next season.

confident enough to wager a perma ban if the skins have a winning or losing record under campbell?
What say me is those three hours of "sleep" I got last night are catching up to me! :cheers:
Okay, one person thought JC was the mid season MVP. Whoopy. The season is 16 games long. The WRs are not consistently blanketed. As I think I said in this thread, as others have said, when you go to the games and sit up high, like I have, you see receivers open often but JC doesn't throw it because he isn't reading the defenses correctly.

Bottom line for me is that JC has had enough time to prove himself and the proof is that he's an average QB with a less than .500 winning percentage. The one time someone took his place on offense, we clicked.

I just want to win, and JC isn't and won't get it done.

Been fun Chow, but I gotta get going.

Oh, regarding the bet. No, I don't bet against the Skins or the players. Trust me, I'll be cheering for JC. I would love to have you prove me wrong, I really would.
Hail,

H

Skins_Throwback

January-1st-2009, 09:40 PM

chow184

January-1st-2009, 09:47 PM

Oh, regarding the bet. No, I don't bet against the Skins or the players. Trust me, I'll be cheering for JC. I would love to have you prove me wrong, I really would.
Hail,

H

all talk no substance

exactly what I thought

Supreme Wu

January-1st-2009, 09:47 PM

It doesn't make sense to blame just the QB or just the coach - obviously neither one of them were very good at their job or the passing game wouldn't have been choking on it's own mediocrity.

Campbell is so cared (probably by the Gibbs regime) of throwing an INT that he NEVER looks comfortable getting rid of the ball unless he's being blitzed by ten guys. OTherwise he will hold it all day waiting for the perfect moment that never comes. He has to play with some sense of urgency, because it never shows in his body language.

I have a hard time questioning Zorn's playcalling because outside of some clock management, he did a pretty damn impressive coaching job this season. We all know this team isn't able to handle any sort of real success anyway, so the fact that they collapsed is just part of their character, not Zorns fault. He needs to bring in more of his players before I will blame him for failures of character.

HawaiianTime

January-1st-2009, 09:48 PM

jaworski called campbell his midseason MVP

pete king favored portis but also mentioned campbell

OK, I was wondering who else thought Jason was an MVP candidate? I know he had 0 INTs, but other than that, who else thought he was MVP material and why? As for Jaws, he's an Eagle with a big mouth.

chow184

January-1st-2009, 09:48 PM

Are you actually proud of Campbell's numbers & play?
Do you boast to your friends how wonderful he is?

I want to know.

proud?no
have I seen improvement in JC's play? yes

do I have confidence that JC will be a better QB going into 2009 than he was going into 2008? certainly yes,the offense as well will know the scheme so things can't get any worse on offense.

mnb123

January-1st-2009, 09:51 PM

brandymac27

January-1st-2009, 09:58 PM

For the last time, no one is blaming JUST Campbell.

But, you guys are blind if you don't think qb play is a concern.

I just want to know how they have so much confidence in him. What has he shown to prove that he is a starting caliber QB? I don't know if he is or not b/c he has yet, after all this time, to prove that he is. Is it really supposed to take this long? Are all of us really being that unreasonable to ask for a little competition? I swear, this is like beating a dead horse. We've officially come full circle...again.

LoudMouth12thMan

January-1st-2009, 10:06 PM

It all speaks to the fact that he can't throw the deep ball well. And, he doesn't have the vertical weapons to open up the medium-deep part of the field. He has one vertical threat in Moss and a security blanket in Cooley.

He doesn't have the weapons, and he hasn't developed a deep ball [relationship] with more than one player on the roster. Ever wonder why Peyton Manning talks about the importance of throwing balls to your "go to" receivers? He has two of them. Campbell has 1/2 of one that is really a slot guy. He doesn't have a #1 or a #2 receiver IMO, and he didn't get any reps with the rookie WR's b/c they were injured during training camp.

Campbell is just blah to me, but he doesn't have the weapons around him either. I'll never make excuses for him, but again, I'm not going to pull stats and try to make a case for "this or that" and not consider all of the factors. :2cents:

Madison Redskin

January-1st-2009, 11:10 PM

fenses with a vertical passing attack, you won’t be getting picked off, but you won’t be helping your team win.

Wrong. When you don't challenge corners with a deep passing attack, they can sit on routes, take gambles and go for picks.

AAARedskin

January-2nd-2009, 12:06 AM

"Jason Campbell Excuse Making Fan Club"?

:rotflmao:

facts aren't excues

however, the JC hater club, make up over half of the criticism, nor back up their "numbers" logically... usually leaving out important details, that changes the real meaning....

such as the lions scored more points nonsense above, when you look at the lions schedule they played some easy defenses the Skins didn't face, and against common opponents wasn't even close, but why let facts....err... excuses get in the way of a witch hunt :thumbsup:
Oh that's right! The Lions played in the Canadian Football League, and played against non-NFL talent. Yup, this is an easy and cleaver way to SPIN the story. (You people are just like the news media....they spin the facts any way you can when someone they've propped up is being investigated or criticized) It's excuse after excuse from the members of the official "Jason Campbell Excuse Makers" fan club. Hey....maybe Vinny can draft only players for the defense! Yeah, if the Skins can hold all of the opponent teams to under 10 points per game, maybe the Campbell led offense can then take off!!!!

stevemcqueen1

January-2nd-2009, 03:45 AM

I can't prove it or find a stat to prove it, but I think that a reason Campbell's 3rd down conversion numbers are so plain are because of the inordinately high amount of long 3rd downs the offense faced this year. Not only that, think of all of the 3 and outs. This offense struggled to find rhythm, especially on the first two downs. I don't feel like we were getting much in the way of yards after the catch from anyone but Cooley either, but hopefully that will change with the improvement of the rookie WRs. That is, after all, why they were drafted, and the WC offense just won't work well if the receivers aren't either getting good separation or breaking tackles to make yards after the catch. Also, There were definitely times when Campbell's accuracy could have improved because he was too skittish to give his receivers a chance to beat the defenders on their heals.

stevemcqueen1

January-2nd-2009, 03:51 AM

Oh that's right! The Lions played in the Canadian Football League, and played against non-NFL talent. Yup, this is an easy and cleaver way to SPIN the story. (You people are just like the news media....they spin the facts any way you can when someone they've propped up is being investigated or criticized) It's excuse after excuse from the members of the official "Jason Campbell Excuse Makers" fan club. Hey....maybe Vinny can draft only players for the defense! Yeah, if the Skins can hold all of the opponent teams to under 10 points per game, maybe the Campbell led offense can then take off!!!!

Different offensive philosophies achieve different statistical results obviously but they aren't good for comparison of success. The Redskins run a ball control offense that will never put up buckets of points because its not designed to.

The Saints were the top offense in the league, but did it win them any more games? I believe they will be picking right after us in this upcoming draft.

truskinsfan18

January-2nd-2009, 03:56 AM

The bottom line is the statistic is flawed, and Vishal's argument has many flaws. There are too many variables that affect yards per pass. Scheme, Line play, etc. If you do not have protection to go deeper, then it is not possible.

We cannot discount the 6-2 start. I believe Campbells drop off in play was attributed to scheme and line play. How can Campbell go from being in the MVP talks to a horrible QB? Doesn't happen.

He has improved every year, while facing the challenge of learning a new offense. Under his performance, we should be 10-6. He brought us back against Rams and 49ers, only to have the defense lose it. 10-6 is good no matter how you cut it. I believe he will continue to improve with more time in the offense.

Chump Bailey

January-2nd-2009, 08:07 AM

helptheSKINS

January-2nd-2009, 12:42 PM

We saw different games.

Eight wins were the result. That's not bad for the first year in an offense without the help of the big receivers the WCO needs to be efficient. By controlling the ball and playing the field position game well, the offense helped the defense keep the score down. In 2009, we need to get into the end zone more often.

This defines the problem with JC and the people who are continuing to think he should start next season no questions asked. Eight wins is average. JC is AT BEST average. This is coming from a Skins fan, not a JC hater. All the JC excuses won't lead to anymore wins. A QB competition however might.

ciresolstice

January-2nd-2009, 01:27 PM

you also forgot to mention in your stats that zorn doesn't attack downfield so campbells YPA will be fairly low compared to anyone else in a more normal passing attack.

you can't take chances downfield when you're coach is calling short passing plays. every week the announcers and play by play people would remark how zorn never seriously challenged people with deep passing plays. there was a point last week were we had 4 WR's on the field and ALL of them ran short routes.

I don't think campbell is a great QB by anymeans but I certainly do believe zorn handcuffed his playcalling a bit. if having colt play meant zorn uncuffing the offense I'd be all for it. All I really want to see though is campbell given free reign in a legit NFL offense. people are calling for his head when he's playing in a kiddy size west coast offense that rarely goes vertical. the only time zorn legitimately attacked deep was off of playaction. so you sort of knew the deep ball was coming on defense if you saw playaction.

^^ well said , very fair assessment of things imo.

I'll add I have no issue with a competition for starter in training camp, may the best of what we have win.

Aghar

January-2nd-2009, 02:13 PM

I would like someone to explain to me how in the world people still believe the coaching staff is holding Campbell back at all? I mean, last year, it was Gibbs and Saunders holding him back, obviously, because he clearly had all the tools to make the throws but they just weren't calling them. Now this year, we again clearly see how great of a deep throwing QB he is, yet Zorn holds him back. I wonder why that is? Two different coaches. Two different offensive philosophies and yet they decided to "handcuff" Campbell? Damn coaches don't know a thing around here...:doh:

*totally sarcastic for those who can't see it*:cheers:

SkinsWizCubsDukes

January-2nd-2009, 02:19 PM

pjfootballer

January-2nd-2009, 07:11 PM

all talk no substance

exactly what I thought

Maybe because your bet is childish. You were doing a fine job debating your case until you pulled out this 3rd grade, "nuh uh, you wann bet." crap.

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 07:23 PM

Isn't there an ES rule that states, "If 2 or more Ring of Fame guys agree with you, you're right"...? :)

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 07:25 PM

AAARedskin

January-2nd-2009, 07:25 PM

Different offensive philosophies achieve different statistical results obviously but they aren't good for comparison of success. The Redskins run a ball control offense that will never put up buckets of points because its not designed to.

The Saints were the top offense in the league, but did it win them any more games? I believe they will be picking right after us in this upcoming draft.
If the Saints had the Skins defense, they would contend for the Super Bowl, and if Campbell could play anywhere near the level that Drew Brees plays at (like comparing Pop Warner football to the USC Trojans), the Redskins could contend for the Superbowl. Campbell's 3rd down conversion stat is a disgrace, and his win/loss record as a starter show me absolutely NOTHING.

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 07:27 PM

If the Saints had the Skins defense, they would contend for the Super Bowl, and if Campbell could play anywhere near the level that Drew Brees plays at (like comparing Pop Warner football to the USC Trojans), the Redskins could contend for the Superbowl. Campbell's 3rd down conversion stat is a disgrace, and his win/loss record as a starter show me absolutely NOTHING.

Now go and check how many times Campbell's been destroyed on 3rd downs by rushers.

For some odd reason, Joe Bugel thinks you can block 8 with 5+1 RB. :doh:

AAARedskin

January-2nd-2009, 07:34 PM

AMEN BUBBA!!!!!!

I thought I was the only one who thought they made most of that crap up. :cheers:
Nobody is making anything "up." What's going on is this thread has exposed some very telling stats about how mediocre Jason Campbell is, and you don't like the stats (also known as facts). How about Campbell's WIN/LOSS record as a starter? Are those stats also made up? There are still some of us who are old enough to remember Redskin teams that WON CHAMPIONSHIPS with QBs that knew how to put more than 24 points on the scoreboard nearly every Sunday. Yeah, some of us can spot a good QB from a mediocre one. I got news for you......as long as the Campbell led offense sputters along averaging 16 points a game, these kinds of threads and the Start Colt Brennan threads will never go away.

AAARedskin

January-2nd-2009, 07:39 PM

Now go and check how many times Campbell's been destroyed on 3rd downs by rushers.

For some odd reason, Joe Bugel thinks you can block 8 with 5+1 RB. :doh:
Newsflash: Not every QB needs 6 to 8 seconds to set up and deliver a pass for a 1st down. Ever hear people talk of a QB having a quick release? You Campbell excuse makers all want to blame the O-line, but Todd Collins had the same group of guys blocking, and magically spotted receivers more quickly, resulting in a BETTER THIRD DOWN ratio, a more efficient offense, and MORE points on the scoreboard....

What games were YOU watching?

IHOPSkins

January-2nd-2009, 07:51 PM

....Joe Bugel thinks you can block 8 with 5+1 RB. :doh:Maybe Bugel assumes that with 6 blockers and 8 rushers there are at least 2 people open???

Thats assuming a QB that can READ A DEFENSE and HIT AN OPEN MAN

I now remember a certain Monday Night Game vs Philly
Gibbs diled up the playaction...perfectly timed for a TD
JC had a wide open WR......and missed him
Bugels reaction was seen on the sidelines
I can hear him saying "We work all game to give this guy time.....and he BLOWS IT"

HawaiianTime

January-2nd-2009, 08:00 PM

Maybe Bugel assumes that with 6 blockers and 8 rushers there are at least 2 people open???

Thats assuming a QB that can READ A DEFENSE and HIT AN OPEN MAN

I now remember a certain Monday Night Game vs Philly
Gibbs diled up the playaction...perfectly timed for a TD
JC had a wide open WR......and missed him
Bugels reaction was seen on the sidelines
I can hear him saying "We work all game to give this guy time.....and he BLOWS IT"

Hey, isn't there only supposed to be 11 defenders on the field???:silly: So that means that there are only 3 defenders covering 4 guys. Wow, does Jason really have it that bad?????:)

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 08:22 PM

Newsflash: Not every QB needs 6 to 8 seconds to set up and deliver a pass for a 1st down. Ever hear people talk of a QB having a quick release? You Campbell excuse makers all want to blame the O-line, but Todd Collins had the same group of guys blocking, and magically spotted receivers more quickly, resulting in a BETTER THIRD DOWN ratio, a more efficient offense, and MORE points on the scoreboard....

What games were YOU watching?

Did you really just compare Collins with Campbell?? :doh: If you jump now, you can catch your credibility before it hits the ground.

Collins studied that offense for 9 years, Campbell was in it for 20 games. Of course Collins hit receivers before they got there, he knew they'd be there 9 years ago. :D

And I guess you missed Collins in the playoff game versus Seattle. What games were you watching, is the better question????

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 08:24 PM

Maybe Bugel assumes that with 6 blockers and 8 rushers there are at least 2 people open???

Thats assuming a QB that can READ A DEFENSE and HIT AN OPEN MAN

I now remember a certain Monday Night Game vs Philly
Gibbs diled up the playaction...perfectly timed for a TD
JC had a wide open WR......and missed him
Bugels reaction was seen on the sidelines
I can hear him saying "We work all game to give this guy time.....and he BLOWS IT"

Obviously I'm talking to someone who's never played organized football. :rolleyes:

Maybe you missed it, but receivers this year weren't even turning around to see if Campbell was in trouble. In case you didn't catch on, that's why so many passes hit the ground on 3rd and long. Campbell tried to hit his release valves, but those guys simply couldn't release.

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 08:27 PM

Nobody is making anything "up." What's going on is this thread has exposed some very telling stats about how mediocre Jason Campbell is, and you don't like the stats (also known as facts). How about Campbell's WIN/LOSS record as a starter? Are those stats also made up? There are still some of us who are old enough to remember Redskin teams that WON CHAMPIONSHIPS with QBs that knew how to put more than 24 points on the scoreboard nearly every Sunday. Yeah, some of us can spot a good QB from a mediocre one. I got news for you......as long as the Campbell led offense sputters along averaging 16 points a game, these kinds of threads and the Start Colt Brennan threads will never go away.

You guys are definitely making up your posts. I mean anytime you can completely ignore the O-Line, due to sheer hatred for Campbell, it's obvious that you're biased and incapable of seeing anything but your own fictional thoughts.

And Campbell led offenses put up 19 ppg. ;)

IHOPSkins

January-2nd-2009, 08:30 PM

Obviously I'm talking to someone who's never played organized football. .:stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu:

Edit

You're asking these guys to be reasonable, and that just isn't possible from the Campbell Haters.!

Campbell Haters do nothing but make excuses.

Do you even watch Redskin games??

It seems easier to blame Campbell, but none of the Campbell Haters even see the O-Line as a remote possibility for the issues. That's ignorant no matter how you slice it and dice it.
Grow up man, and stop playing this holier than thou game with me.

Did you really just compare Collins with Campbell?? If you jump now, you can catch your credibility before it hits the ground. .....And I guess you missed Collins in the playoff game versus Seattle. What games were you watching, is the better question????

You guys are definitely making up your posts. I mean anytime you can completely ignore the O-Line, due to sheer hatred for Campbell, it's obvious that you're biased and incapable of seeing anything but your own fictional thoughts....

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 08:32 PM

:stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu::stfu:

And the Campbell Haters wonder why no one's buying their crap. :rolleyes:

RocketCitySkins

January-2nd-2009, 09:04 PM

Newsflash: Not every QB needs 6 to 8 seconds to set up and deliver a pass for a 1st down.
What games were YOU watching?

What games were you?

In the Steelers, 2nd Dallas, both Giants and Baltimore games JC needed 3-4 seconds and barely got 2. There were times he didn't even get through a three step drop before his own o-line was pushed back into him. :mad:

Skins_Throwback

January-2nd-2009, 09:04 PM

And Campbell led offenses put up 19 ppg. ;)

Tell me you're not proud of that? 19ppg is pathetic and so is your lust for Campbell. I just don't get you & your band of "Jason Campbell excuse makers club" loyalty to a guy who has...

1. a losing record as a starter
2. can't drive the team to score points
3. has the leadership skills of Bambi

I don't ever remember a worse offensive Skins team, EVER. JC holds the top position on this offense, enough said.

No need for more excuses or stat figures, I want the Skins to win with production & results.

brandymac27

January-2nd-2009, 09:09 PM

And the Campbell Haters wonder why no one's buying their crap. :rolleyes:

First, nobody hates JC. Most of us just want the best QB under center, regardless of who that is (JC, CB, TC, hell, it could be ARE). At this point, I don't care who it is, I just want to see for myself that there isn't someone else better out there (and judging on JC this past season I'm fairly certain there is). That's why I'm all for an open QB competition. Why are you so opposed to that? Are you scared JC will lose out to someone like, say, a rookie QB who has never played a regular season NFL game? Hell, if he loses, then he should have never been the starter to begin with, and if he wins it will shut all of us "haters" up. :2cents:

IHOPSkins

January-2nd-2009, 09:31 PM

.....Most of us just want the best QB under center, regardless of who that is (JC, CB, TC, hell, it could be ARE)....Yup

2 Years ago it wasn't JC

Last year it wasn't JC!

This year was it JC?

Next Year?

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 09:37 PM

First, nobody hates JC. Most of us just want the best QB under center, regardless of who that is (JC, CB, TC, hell, it could be ARE). At this point, I don't care who it is, I just want to see for myself that there isn't someone else better out there (and judging on JC this past season I'm fairly certain there is). That's why I'm all for an open QB competition. Why are you so opposed to that? Are you scared JC will lose out to someone like, say, a rookie QB who has never played a regular season NFL game? Hell, if he loses, then he should have never been the starter to begin with, and if he wins it will shut all of us "haters" up. :2cents:

Jesus Christ could be under center. With an O-Line like we had this season, even he'd be imperfect.

We should all start arguing about draft picks or possible free agent signings, because no matter what, Jason Campbell is QB #1 in 2009. We need to think about things that will change, like maybe drafting Duke Robinson or Oher and signing Jordan Gross. I guarantee you this much, we improve the line, and there won't be any more Campbell non-hating. :D

#21Taylor4Ever

January-2nd-2009, 09:40 PM

Tell me you're not proud of that? 19ppg is pathetic and so is your lust for Campbell. I just don't get you & your band of "Jason Campbell excuse makers club" loyalty to a guy who has...

1. a losing record as a starter
2. can't drive the team to score points
3. has the leadership skills of Bambi

I don't ever remember a worse offensive Skins team, EVER. JC holds the top position on this offense, enough said.

No need for more excuses or stat figures, I want the Skins to win with production & results.

1. Once we improve the line play, that record will soon become a winning one.

2. Yet another Campbell Hater fabrication.

3. And another one. Just because he doesn't act an ass like Rivers, doesn't mean he lacks leadership skills. Maybe you don't listen to the players, but everyone says Campbell's a good leader.

mnb123

January-2nd-2009, 09:44 PM

1. Once we improve the line play, that record will soon become a winning one.

2. Yet another Campbell Hater fabrication.

3. And another one. Just because he doesn't act an ass like Rivers, doesn't mean he lacks leadership skills. Maybe you don't listen to the players, but everyone says Campbell's a good leader.

Want something that's not a fabrication? Campbell has NEVER put up over 30 points offensively as a redskin.

If thats not a telling stat, then I don't know what it

IHOPSkins

January-2nd-2009, 09:45 PM

.... Maybe you don't listen to the players, but everyone says Campbell's a good leader."I've seen Jason from the moment he came here, and you can see that change in him," left tackle Chris Samuels said. "Whenever you get experience under your belt, you get more comfortable in a leadership role. Jason is being more vocal in practice, giving words of encouragement to the team, and then you see what he did in the last game. The way he stepped up, I was just so proud of him."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091803545.html

They "SAY" it

Why do they have to SAY it?....shouldn't it be OBVIOUS?

Like when Todd TOOK OVER the Offense last year and LED us into the Playoffs?

HawaiianTime

January-2nd-2009, 09:49 PM

What games were you?

In the Steelers, 2nd Dallas, both Giants and Baltimore games JC needed 3-4 seconds and barely got 2. There were times he didn't even get through a three step drop before his own o-line was pushed back into him. :mad:

Nopers. If you check, Jason got an average of 3-4 seconds. Which isn't much, but still should be enough for a receiver to get 10-15 yards down field. Jason has enough time to take a 5 step drop with 2 secounds to get rid of the ball.

HawaiianTime

January-2nd-2009, 09:52 PM

Jesus Christ could be under center. With an O-Line like we had this season, even he'd be imperfect.

We should all start arguing about draft picks or possible free agent signings, because no matter what, Jason Campbell is QB #1 in 2009. We need to think about things that will change, like maybe drafting Duke Robinson or Oher and signing Jordan Gross. I guarantee you this much, we improve the line, and there won't be any more Campbell non-hating. :D

Wow, first blasphemy than a fortune teller. Dude, like a Carnie, can you juggle as well?

bubba9497

January-2nd-2009, 09:56 PM

Want something that's not a fabrication? Campbell has NEVER put up over 30 points offensively as a redskin.

If thats not a telling stat, then I don't know what it

The Skins with JC starting scored 34 in '07 against the Lions

brandymac27

January-2nd-2009, 09:58 PM

Jesus Christ could be under center. With an O-Line like we had this season, even he'd be imperfect.

We should all start arguing about draft picks or possible free agent signings, because no matter what, Jason Campbell is QB #1 in 2009. We need to think about things that will change, like maybe drafting Duke Robinson or Oher and signing Jordan Gross. I guarantee you this much, we improve the line, and there won't be any more Campbell non-hating. :D

All I know is that if he ISN'T the QB in 2009, I will be a little worried about you.

BUT, you never answered my question. Forget the line, receivers, playcalling, etc, etc, etc. Why are you so worried about an open QB competition?

brandymac27

January-2nd-2009, 10:01 PM

The Skins with JC starting scored 34 in '07 against the Lions

:doh: No offense, but the Lions? What an accomplishment!:rolleyes:

mnb123

January-2nd-2009, 10:04 PM

The Skins with JC starting scored 34 in '07 against the Lions

I said 30 points offensively. Carlos rogers had a pick-6 in that game

#21Taylor4Ever

January-3rd-2009, 12:26 AM

Negatives: Has good quickness and a strong throwing arm, but his overall core strength is marginal and he might struggle absorbing punishment at the next level...Field smart, but needs to make a better effort academically...Puts in the effort in the training room, but has marginal lifting habits...Does not have the size, strength or body mass you look for at his position...Can fire the ball with good strength, but when he throws off the wrong foot, his deep throws tend to wobble...Puts a lot of effort behind his deep throws, but his footwork needs to be refined...Will lose his composure under a fierce pass rush, but will generally step up and avoid...Will generally throw with a high release, but when he fires low, he gets lots of passes deflected (see 2007 Louisiana Tech game)...Has good arm strength, but must throw with better velocity when attacking the seam...Now scans the field well, but did lock on to his primary target too often in the early stages of his career...Will throw the ball with a three-quarters sidearm delivery when rolling out, but needs to refine that delivery (better when going over the top), as he will drop his arm too low at times and this affects his trajectory, resulting in deflected passes...Not the type that will force the ball into traffic when pressured, but possibly due to his ankle injury negating his foot speed in 2007, he struggled to maintain balance on roll-outs, resulting in a high amount of his passes being intercepted or deflected.

Compares To: ALEX SMITH-San Francisco...Smith is several inches taller and more powerful than Brennan, but both rely on their athletic agility to step up and avoid pressure. Brennan has that moxie on the field that reminds some of Brett Favre, but it is his quick reads that sees him get the ball out instantly to his targets. He is a mobile passer whose scrambling keeps defenses honest, but lacks the size and certainly lacks the core strength you look for in a quarterback that can absorb punishment at the next level. In a spread or West Coast offense, Brennan is a nice fit. But despite good arm strength in the short-to-intermediate areas, he isn't capable of consistently attacking the deep secondary.

#21Taylor4Ever

January-3rd-2009, 12:28 AM

All I know is that if he ISN'T the QB in 2009, I will be a little worried about you.

BUT, you never answered my question. Forget the line, receivers, playcalling, etc, etc, etc. Why are you so worried about an open QB competition?

Show me where I said I was worried. I'm more worried about you watching him become the clipboard holder FOR LIFE!

Give it up man, Brennan will never supplant Campbell here in Washington.

#21Taylor4Ever

January-3rd-2009, 12:31 AM

Want something that's not a fabrication? Campbell has NEVER put up over 30 points offensively as a redskin.

If thats not a telling stat, then I don't know what it

31 versus the Rams in 06.

You were right Bubba, these Campbell Haters really do pull lies out of their asses. :doh:

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 12:32 AM

You fighting with someone AGAIN??

And I was hoping you'd make a new resolution this year.........lol

#21Taylor4Ever

January-3rd-2009, 12:37 AM

No fighting, this is simply an online disagreement. :)

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 12:38 AM

A disagreement? With YOU?? Regarding CAMPBELL????

Whoda thunk it!! :silly:

mnb123

January-3rd-2009, 12:42 AM

31 versus the Rams in 06.

You were right Bubba, these Campbell Haters really do pull lies out of their asses. :doh:

Good lord I was close enough.

BTW Campbell went a whopping 13/26 160yrds 1TD that game. Hooray.

Gibbs Hog Heaven

January-3rd-2009, 12:45 AM

31 versus the Rams in 06.

You were right Bubba, these Campbell Haters really do pull lies out of their asses. :doh:

Technically, there was a pick six from the D to reach that tally, but ya' know.

Statistics, darn statistics.

Hail.

mAshparie36

January-3rd-2009, 12:48 AM

Good lord I was close enough.

BTW Campbell went a whopping 13/26 160yrds 1TD that game. Hooray.

Unfortunately, you sir are just as every other campbell hater where all you say is you want the best for the team, and the "best" qb out there, yet you are not willing to stick it out a bit and give campbell another year in a NEW offense

campbell haters = impatient

mnb123

January-3rd-2009, 12:51 AM

Unfortunately, you sir are just as every other campbell hater where all you say is you want the best for the team, and the "best" qb out there, yet you are not willing to stick it out a bit and give campbell another year in a NEW offense

campbell haters = impatient

Just stop, please.

calling someone a "campbell hater" reminds me of elementary school name calling

I dont hate campbell, I hate the way we play like crap when he is under center. I could not care less who is on our roster, as long as they play well. And read my previous posts, I more than welcome spreading the blame around through the whole team, including the QB.

Edit: and 4 years is more than enough time to establish yourself as a threat, regardless of systems

mAshparie36

January-3rd-2009, 12:56 AM

Just stop, please.

calling someone a "campbell hater" reminds me of elementary school name calling

I dont hate campbell, I hate the way we play like crap when he is under center. I could not care less who is on our roster, as long as they play well. And read my previous posts, I more than welcome spreading the blame around through the whole team, including the QB.

Edit: and 4 years is more than enough time to establish yourself as a threat, regardless of systems

As everyone else, we all hate when our team doesn't play well, but putting someone else under center is not gonna fix it.

Dont take the campbell hater the wrong way, i apologize, didnt mean it like that, but at least be a little more reasonable in your posts. 4 years is different from 2 years of playing.

Campbell is the type of QB, that if we let him go, he'll go somewhere else, get really good and come back and beat us down.

Edit: The giants stuck with Eli, regardless of how poorly he was playing, and he gave them a trophy in return. You can't just run players/coaches out of town because they don't win super bowls in 1 or 2 years.

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 01:00 AM

As everyone else, we all hate when our team doesn't play well, but putting someone else under center is not gonna fix it.

Dont take the campbell hater the wrong way, i apologize, didnt mean it like that, but at least be a little more reasonable in your posts. 4 years is different from 2 years of playing.

Campbell is the type of QB, that if we let him go, he'll go somewhere else, get really good and come back and beat us down.

First of all........I really enjoy having a discussion or debate regarding the Campbell / QB position with folks like you who approach the situation rationally and calmly. So kudos to you for that.

That said.........I'll bet you an entire paycheck Campbell doesn't come back to beat us down......lol

:cheers:

mAshparie36

January-3rd-2009, 01:07 AM

First of all........I really enjoy having a discussion or debate regarding the Campbell / QB position with folks like you who approach the situation rationally and calmly. So kudos to you for that.

That said.........I'll bet you an entire paycheck Campbell doesn't come back to beat us down......lol

:cheers:

Thank you, appreciate that.

HOWEVER, I think he has made enough plays this season to prove he belongs under center. sooo i'll take that bet! :D

he would do a schottenheimer to us.

brandymac27

January-3rd-2009, 01:13 AM

Show me where I said I was worried. I'm more worried about you watching him become the clipboard holder FOR LIFE!

Give it up man, Brennan will never supplant Campbell here in Washington.

1- YOU didn't say you were worried. I said I will be worried about YOU! I have never seen anyone fight for a player as hard as you fight for JC. And let's face reality, he hasn't proven that he's worth fighting over.

2- It's not man, it's WOman

3- Maybe, maybe not, but if JC doesn't tighten up real fast, somebody else will.

And again, you still haven't answered my question. Why are you sooooooo scared of an open QB competition?

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 01:24 AM

1- YOU didn't say you were worried. I said I will be worried about YOU! I have never seen anyone fight for a player as hard as you fight for JC. And let's face reality, he hasn't proven that he's worth fighting over.

2- It's not man, it's WOman

Classic! Just classic.

You, MA'AM.....have hit the nail directly on the head!:cheers:

HawaiianTime

January-3rd-2009, 01:26 AM

And again, you still haven't answered my question. Why are you sooooooo scared of an open QB competition?

You know, I've seen you ask this several times. Still no takers??? I'll keep checking for an answer. Thanks Brandy for asking.

brandymac27

January-3rd-2009, 01:27 AM

Classic! Just classic.

You, MA'AM.....have hit the nail directly on the head!:cheers:

If JC ever loses his position as starting QB, I swear this guy is gonna need an intervention.

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 01:28 AM

You know, I've seen you ask this several times. Still no takers??? I'll keep checking for an answer. Thanks Brandy for asking.

It's tough to apply logic where clearly logic does not apply......lol.

Don't hold your breath waiting for a DIRECT answer to that question. Sadly, one will never come.

brandymac27

January-3rd-2009, 01:31 AM

You know, I've seen you ask this several times. Still no takers??? I'll keep checking for an answer. Thanks Brandy for asking.

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to answer.

NastyBoy

January-3rd-2009, 01:35 AM

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to answer.

Agreed. It's such a simple question, yet one the die-hard Campbell supporters continue to dodge.

If JC is all they say he is.........wouldn't an unbiased, open competition only confirm what they all tell us? If I were a Campbell supporter, I'd actually promote the idea that it would bring out the best in him and perhaps motivate him in a way that would be very effective. Why run and hide? Promote the idea, JC lovers! I double-dog dare ya!

bubba9497

January-3rd-2009, 01:39 AM

Technically, there was a pick six from the D to reach that tally, but ya' know.

Statistics, darn statistics.

Hail.

newsflash almost always when a team scores 30+ points, a defensive or special team TD is involved, something people tend to leave out when they sling the 30 point BS argument. Did McNabb "lead" the eagles to 44 points against the pokes?

His numbers weren't impressive, the Defense scored 17 points off turnovers, and lead to two other score because of turnovers.... football is a team sport, and all 53 have to due there part to succeed

beside the point was the Skin never scored 30 with JC as QB, and the fact remains he has, period.... very few QB's have scored 5 td's on their own (passing, rushing).

Gibbs Hog Heaven

January-3rd-2009, 01:47 AM

newsflash almost always when a team scores 30+ points, a defensive or special team TD is involved, something people tend to leave out when they sling the 30 point BS argument. Did McNabb "lead" the eagles to 44 points against the pokes?

His numbers weren't impressive, the Defense scored 17 points off turnovers, and lead to two other score because of turnovers.... football is a team sport, and all 53 have to due there part to succeed

beside the point was the Skin never scored 30 with JC as QB, and the fact remains he has, period.... very few QB's have scored 5 td's on their own (passing, rushing).

So in 36 starts as a pro, he's led his team to a WHOPPING ONE 30 point or more game?

WOOT! I'm sold, break out the champagne.

We have an offensive BEAST! :notworthy

Hail.

bubba9497

January-3rd-2009, 01:50 AM

I really don't understand why this is so difficult for some people to answer.

if you think there isn't a competition every season, you're fooling yourself. No coach is going to play the lesser player, out of anything. The name of the game is to win.

Zorn didn't draft Campbell, he drafted Colt.... if he felt Colt was the better option, don't think for a second he wouldn't start him. Gibbs said Ramsey was the clear starter in 05, and switched after 1 half of play.

some of this stuff people are posting is just ridiculous, and lacks any common sense. Many are trying too hard to make up excuses to justify their hate.

Bacon

January-3rd-2009, 01:50 AM

Agreed. It's such a simple question, yet one the die-hard Campbell supporters continue to dodge.

If JC is all they say he is.........wouldn't an unbiased, open competition only confirm what they all tell us? If I were a Campbell supporter, I'd actually promote the idea that it would bring out the best in him and perhaps motivate him in a way that would be very effective. Why run and hide? Promote the idea, JC lovers! I double-dog dare ya!

I'm a JC supporter and fully support the idea. What's the harm? It's logical.

HawaiianTime

January-3rd-2009, 02:49 AM

newsflash almost always when a team scores 30+ points, a defensive or special team TD is involved, something people tend to leave out when they sling the 30 point BS argument. Did McNabb "lead" the eagles to 44 points against the pokes?

His numbers weren't impressive, the Defense scored 17 points off turnovers, and lead to two other score because of turnovers.... football is a team sport, and all 53 have to due there part to succeed

beside the point was the Skin never scored 30 with JC as QB, and the fact remains he has, period.... very few QB's have scored 5 td's on their own (passing, rushing).

The point was Jason did not lead the skins to a 30+point game. I've mentioned this several times that the Skins scored more than 20 points only 6 times this year and scored less than 15 points 8 times this year.

bubba9497

January-3rd-2009, 03:22 AM

So in 36 starts as a pro, he's led his team to a WHOPPING ONE 30 point or more game?

WOOT! I'm sold, break out the champagne.

We have an offensive BEAST! :notworthy

Hail.

2 times, and again you are clearly ignoring the points ade.

1. it was said JC hasn't led to 30 points in a game.... false

2. Then it's well here was defensive TD, like that mattered, but it was pointed out that defensive TDs or ST TD's almost always occur when a team scores 30+.....(ignred)

3. How many defensive TDs did we have this season? zero

ST tds- 1

so save the spin

Spear

January-3rd-2009, 04:31 AM

Does Zorn save the "Don't throw easy completions into the ground" lesson for year 2 of his WCO? It's a tricky concept, so maybe JC does deserve more time in the offense learning how not to make a fool of himself under center.

Yeah, that was sarcasm.

3. How many defensive TDs did we have this season? zero

ST tds- 1Yeah, because it obviously isn't good enough when the defense and ST set up the offense in great field position. As evidenced by the Pittsburgh game. It only helps when they return it all the way.

You know, it'd probably be more useful if the other 2 units pretended as if the offense didn't exist. That way, when we have a return going, we can just say, "**** it" and start lateraling the ball, college blowout style.

That's it, guys! No more booing Jason Campbell! Boo Deangelo Hall for intercepting a ball and lazily getting knocked out of bounds at the +30! What good does that do us!? Boo Rock Cartwright for breaking a 50 yard return into the opponent's territory before being tackled! What good does that do us!?

More sarcasm.

Gibbs Hog Heaven

January-3rd-2009, 07:28 AM

2 times, and again you are clearly ignoring the points ade.

1. it was said JC hasn't led to 30 points in a game.... false

2. Then it's well here was defensive TD, like that mattered, but it was pointed out that defensive TDs or ST TD's almost always occur when a team scores 30+.....(ignred)

3. How many defensive TDs did we have this season? zero

ST tds- 1

so save the spin

Where the hecks the spin there?

You pointed out that Jason has had a 30 point game.

I merely said that you'd finaly swayed me to his "greatness", with that majestic number of ONE 30 plus point game in 36 career pro starts.

I'm AGREEING with you. Just adding a statement of, ya' know, FACT, to yours. :doh:

No one's arguing or putting any more spin on anything than you yourself in defense of #17. (Except when an actual FACT, to counter yours, is put forth, you suddenly resort to classing us all as "haters", which is arrogance in the extreme, but your perogative non the less.).

Hail.

*Oh, and the "pick 6" comment..... read through the "spin", as you call it, that the poster that was directed to has continually done this past week or so on the subject, in defense of Campbell, (which apparently is acceptable huh?); re-find your SOH, and realise that was said with tongue FIRMLY in cheek.

brandymac27

January-3rd-2009, 11:35 AM

if you think there isn't a competition every season, you're fooling yourself. No coach is going to play the lesser player, out of anything. The name of the game is to win.

Zorn didn't draft Campbell, he drafted Colt.... if he felt Colt was the better option, don't think for a second he wouldn't start him. Gibbs said Ramsey was the clear starter in 05, and switched after 1 half of play.

some of this stuff people are posting is just ridiculous, and lacks any common sense. Many are trying too hard to make up excuses to justify their hate.

I assure you, there is no hate on my part. And, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that every season there is a QB competition. There wasn't one worth anything last offseason. Zorn specifically said JC would be the starting QB. And Zorn never pulled him out of the game or sat him to give someone else a chance either, like Gibbs did with Ramsey. To me, that's ridiculous. The QB should earn that position. JC didn't earn it if Zorn handed it to him.

I would hope this offseason, at some point, there will be a real competition. I have said many times if there is and JC wins, then I will fully support him. But until there is one, nobody is ever gonna know that we have the best man for the job, and frankly, that's all I care about.