In Retrospect (2008 Draft)

[Thinking Skins]

I was just looking back at the 2008 Draft. I wanted a DL, but thought we still addressed a need by drafting WR (and TE :doh:). Now looking back, we have the following stats:

Round 2
Phillip Merling (1 Sack)
Trevor Laws (0 Sacks)
Calais Campbell (0 Sacks)
Quentin Groves (2.5 Sacks)
Jason Jones (5 Sacks)

Round 3
Kendall Langford (2 Sacks)
Chris Ellis (0 Sacks)
Pat Sims (1 Sack)
Bryan Smith (0 Sacks)
Andre Fluellen (0 Sacks)
Marcus Harrison (2 Sacks)

The guys we were spending a lot of time looking at and debating over (Laws, Merling, Campbell, Groves) didn't do much this year. Jones was a guy who had a good year, but he's playing on a line with Haynesworth. That being said, it seems that a lot of DEs seem to break out in their second or third years (similar to WRs).

But at least none of the guys we passed on won defensive rookie of the year.

[HitStickTaylor21]

I'm happy we passed on those guys, but I'm even happier we didn't take Alan Branch at #6 two years ago, like some people here wanted. The guy slipped into the 2nd round and hasn't done anything with the Cardinals (who have bombed on Branch, Gabe Watson and Calais Campbell).

[Chiefinonhaze]

But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh:

I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all.

[Thinking Skins]

Going back to 2007 though (when we drafted Landry), I wanted Okoye.

Jamaal Anderson has 2 sacks over his career.
Okoye has 6.5 sacks over his career (5.5 last year, 1 this year)
Adam Carriker has 2 sacks over his career.
Justin Harrell has 0 sacks over his career.
Jarvis Moss has 3.5 sacks over his career (1 last year, 2.5 this year)
Anthony Spencer has 4.5 sacks over his career (3 last year, 1.5 this year).

And thats all the DEs and DTs that were taken in the 1st round 2 years ago. It doesn't seem like any are just blowing up the league in stats just yet. I understand stats can be overrated, but is it possible that Vinny knows what he's doing?

[fire3fighter4]

It's a little early to really be judging..Mario Williams wasn't that great his rookie year(4.5 sacks), and look at him now..(14 last year, 12 this year)

[kevinklein]

But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh:

I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all.

Well this doesn't change Vinny's idiocy...that's about as constant as the sun by day and the moon by night.

[fire3fighter4]

Going back to 2007 though (when we drafted Landry), I wanted Okoye.

Jamaal Anderson has 2 sacks over his career.
Okoye has 6.5 sacks over his career (5.5 last year, 1 this year)
Adam Carriker has 2 sacks over his career.
Justin Harrell has 0 sacks over his career.
Jarvis Moss has 3.5 sacks over his career (1 last year, 2.5 this year)
Anthony Spencer has 4.5 sacks over his career (3 last year, 1.5 this year).

And thats all the DEs and DTs that were taken in the 1st round 2 years ago. It doesn't seem like any are just blowing up the league in stats just yet. I understand stats can be overrated, but is it possible that Vinny knows what he's doing?

Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go.

Carriker went from being a nose tackle to an under tackle and hasn't really been able to be successful.

Moss has just been a straight up disappointment.


and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves.

[squatch66]

vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.

and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems.

[gkekoa]

The draft is just that ...it is a draft. Good college players don't exactly quantify into the NFL. Good coaching and good schemes that utilize players strengths make them good. One definite is you have to be good in the trenches and that is why drafting offensive linemen early makes things easier. That is one of the easier positions to truly judge out of college.

[Mr. S]

scheme matters a lot, maybe those guys aren't in the right scheme?

Also, yes, you have to look back at the 2006 draft to see results. D-line has the longest learning curve. It's why I'm for drafting o-line high, followed by LB. Then draft some project d-linemen in the 3-5 rounds, maybe the 2nd if the talent is there. Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck both took a couple seasons to really show up.

People like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams don't come around that often. Otherwise, almost every d-lineman has to be worked in, moreso during their 2nd season so they can start by their 3rd. Plus it should add fire to them to work harder after their rookie season when they know they can be more effective than some older/aging d-lineman on the decline.

[Ernie5]

and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves.


This makes no sense. He's pretty good at evaluating talent, but he's an idiot? What over the hill vets has he signed? I assume you're not talking about re-structuring our own players.

The only pick Cerrato gave up I'd like to have back is the 2nd for Taylor and even that looked reasonably smart at the time. If Taylor had stayed healthy and on the field and registered, say, 7-8 sacks, the trade might look pretty good.

[Ernie5]

vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.

and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems.

I think Cerrato's statement has been blown way out of proportion. We weren't in a position last year to draft a stud O-lineman anyway, so who knows what he'll do?

Very good, longtime starting O-linemen do not have to be taken in the first round -- doesn't mean you never do it, but it's hardly necessary. If, for example, you're at #13 and looking at Michael Oher (T) or Aaron Curry (OLB) and you pick Curry -- even though the need for LB isn't quite as urgent as OL -- you probably made a wise decision. Either way, a highly defensible move.

[Ernie5]

It's a little early to really be judging..Mario Williams wasn't that great his rookie year(4.5 sacks), and look at him now..(14 last year, 12 this year)


This is exactly right. It makes no more sense to judge the D-linemen picked in the first two rounds last year than it does to judge our receivers. Turns out Mario Williams, thus far, was the right pick over Reggie Bush. Before we label our second rounders busts, let's take a deep breath and think first.

[Cooley4President]

People forget that Vinny's background is in scouting if I remember correctly and he has drafted some good players in his day. His problems include giving away picks, drafting good players at puzzling draft positions, managing contracts, and constructing a roster. It's not like we're the Lions or a team with NO talent, our talent just seems to not be built around a vision, rather haphazardly.

[TheLongshot]

I think the only thing you can say for sure is that it takes a while for most rookies to produce. It is hard to say from the numbers who will end up being pretty good and who will be busts. That goes for our rookies as well.

[Ernie5]

People forget that Vinny's background is in scouting if I remember correctly and he has drafted some good players in his day. His problems include giving away picks, drafting good players at puzzling draft positions, managing contracts, and constructing a roster. It's not like we're the Lions or a team with NO talent, our talent just seems to not be built around a vision, rather haphazardly.

I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision?

Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato.

[PlayAction]

I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision?

Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato.

We can debate what role Cerrato had in any of the player moves since Snyder bought the team. But, its clear that all of the personnel moves last year are his responsibility. He needs to fix the roster and make sure that resigned players aren't overpaid (regardless of Snyder's desire to negotiate the contracts).

BTW - Mario Williams was a Casserly pick. The DE/DT picked in rounds 2/3 shouldn't be considered a flop if they had only 1-2 sacks. The question is whether they would be an improvement over the DE/DTs on the Skins roster. Our old 8 million DE (that cost a second round pick in this years draft) didn't do much better. The young DE would have been with the Skins for at least 4-5 years while Taylor may be one year and done.

[Cooley4President]

I think our offensive roster has a vision: Joe Gibbs' vision. Big, veteran linemen. Strong-armed QB. Workhorse RB. Fast H-back w/great hands. The issue is how do we make changes to reflect Zorn's vision?

Problem is: Gibbs' loved vets, but vets are expensive and are close to being old. I don't put that on Cerrato.

Very good point, we do have roster building to do with Zorn's vision. But I don't think Cerrato is without fault for the current state of our roster. Gibbs was given 1/3 of the personnel say and he definitely had a big hand in deciding who we could acquire to play on Sundays. I feel Cerrato should have been protecting our interests for the future by placing a value on young guys and depth, neither of which has been done. We're left with a roster of Gibbs guys who could play in 2004 when he got them but who are old now and we have no contingency plan.

[Ernie5]

I definitely think Gibbs had more than a third of the personnel say when he was here during Gibbs II, but I don't have any evidence to that effect. I have read and heard from a number of sources that Cerrato was against both the Archuleta and Duckett moves, but had little ammo b/c he didn't have any real decisionmaking authority.

True or not, we can begin to judge Cerrato by 2008's moves. I think some of what he did -- expanding our number of draft choices and staying out of an overpriced, undertalented free agent class -- were smart, other things -- trading a 2nd rounder for Taylor -- not so helpful. I liked a bunch of his draft picks, was wary of others (as we have said, though, one season does not give us much basis for evaluation), and am curious to see what he does this off-season. The team needs to shift to one that reflects Zorn's coaching philosophy (at least on offense) and I do think the receiver choices in '08 were done for exactly that purpose. Whether they work out or not is anyone's guess, but there are no guarantees in the draft.

[#98QBKiller]

One way we could really increase sacks is by blitzing more often, and to me this may be a bigger reason for our lack of sacks than the personnel we have in there on the DL.

I wish I could get the stats on how many times we blitzed a 5th or 6th man this season and I guarantee it would be close to the bottom of the league. Just watchiing the games, we sent a lot of 4-man rushes all season.

The teams with the highest sack totals are teams that send a lot of LB/CB/S blitzes. We have a great secondary so I don't understand why we don't try it more.

Maybe it's lack of personnel? Marcus Washington and Shawn Springs were injured for most of the season and they have been some of the top blitzers on this team in the past.

We have other guys too though. Landry is great at blitzing the QB, Rocky McIntosh has the size to mow through the line from a running start, Jason Taylor should be moved back to LB on more passing situations and blitzed he had a lot of success in Miami doing that.

Maybe we should seriously consider drafting a great blitzing LB somewhere in the first 3 rounds?

[#21Taylor4Ever]

I still think DeSean Jackson would've been more valuable then Davis, Thomas, or Kelly.

Jackson may be a bit small for the NFL, but he has a huge heart and amazing speed. I'd love to see him as our PR.

[Cooley4President]

I definitely think Gibbs had more than a third of the personnel say when he was here during Gibbs II, but I don't have any evidence to that effect. I have read and heard from a number of sources that Cerrato was against both the Archuleta and Duckett moves, but had little ammo b/c he didn't have any real decisionmaking authority.


Well I was basing the 1/3 personnel say on the fact that whenever they talked about how personnel decisions were made, they would all say it was a 3 person operation with Gibbs, Cerrato, and Snyder. I think it's safe to say that Gibbs and Cerrato had more than Snyder, but I don't know if one had more than the other.

[Cooley4President]

I still think DeSean Jackson would've been more valuable then Davis, Thomas, or Kelly.

Jackson may be a bit small for the NFL, but he has a huge heart and amazing speed. I'd love to see him as our PR.

I think if we would have drafted Jackson there would have been a revolt. All we wanted last year were tall WRs, and Jackson is small/fast/elusive in the Moss mold.

[Thinking Skins]

One way we could really increase sacks is by blitzing more often, and to me this may be a bigger reason for our lack of sacks than the personnel we have in there on the DL.

I wish I could get the stats on how many times we blitzed a 5th or 6th man this season and I guarantee it would be close to the bottom of the league. Just watchiing the games, we sent a lot of 4-man rushes all season.

The teams with the highest sack totals are teams that send a lot of LB/CB/S blitzes. We have a great secondary so I don't understand why we don't try it more.

Maybe it's lack of personnel? Marcus Washington and Shawn Springs were injured for most of the season and they have been some of the top blitzers on this team in the past.

We have other guys too though. Landry is great at blitzing the QB, Rocky McIntosh has the size to mow through the line from a running start, Jason Taylor should be moved back to LB on more passing situations and blitzed he had a lot of success in Miami doing that.

Maybe we should seriously consider drafting a great blitzing LB somewhere in the first 3 rounds?

Actually, I think its been posted here that we were amongst the teams that blitzed the most often.

But I do think we should consider looking at a blitzinf OLB (to go along with a DT to collapse the pocket).

[Thinking Skins]

I think if we would have drafted Jackson there would have been a revolt. All we wanted last year were tall WRs, and Jackson is small/fast/elusive in the Moss mold.

Exactly. I can't say I'm so much in favor of Davis and Kelly, but had we gotten another small WR, we would have all said that the team didn't need another Moss, ARE, or LLoyd.

Hopefully we'll see our big WRs make an impact this year.

[Thinking Skins]

Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go.

Carriker went from being a nose tackle to an under tackle and hasn't really been able to be successful.

Moss has just been a straight up disappointment.


and no. Vinny is an idiot. He's never been that bad of a drafter when it comes to evaluating draft talent(although I don't even know if he's the lead guy on doing that..), he's just an idiot for signing over the hill vets, giving up picks, and making dumb moves.

Yeah, these are the things I don't know about. Thats why I'm a little hesitant about this stuff.

But, we can look at the results from 2007 and 2008 and see that more of the guys taken high at WR are having an impact than the guys taken at DE/DT.

I wanted to do a similar thing for the OL, but there are NO stats for OL players other than number of games started, and the few people I looked up, seemed to be like Reinhard (not starting many games), but these were second rounders, I don't know how the first rounders did this year.

[Thinking Skins]

vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.

and one other thing, three of those first rounders outplayed vernon gholston who barely saw the field this year. i remember that there were people last year that said if we drafted him he would solve all our line problems.

I'm willing to buy this one, but the guy I think is more involved in the talent area is Scott Campbell. I don't know who it was (???MRMADD???), but he did a good job once posting what looked like a resume for Scott Campbell and I was impressed. \

It was something like during Vinny's tenure, when Scott was over drafts, we had good drafts; when Scott was over FA, we had good free agency. I'm really hoping that he can be the guy who saves our team.

[Thinking Skins]

scheme matters a lot, maybe those guys aren't in the right scheme?

Also, yes, you have to look back at the 2006 draft to see results. D-line has the longest learning curve. It's why I'm for drafting o-line high, followed by LB. Then draft some project d-linemen in the 3-5 rounds, maybe the 2nd if the talent is there. Osi Umenyiora and Justin Tuck both took a couple seasons to really show up.

People like Julius Peppers or Mario Williams don't come around that often. Otherwise, almost every d-lineman has to be worked in, moreso during their 2nd season so they can start by their 3rd. Plus it should add fire to them to work harder after their rookie season when they know they can be more effective than some older/aging d-lineman on the decline.

I don't really buy that learning curve stuff. I read different articles and each one says that a different position has a different learning curve. I think it relies more on the individual players, the scheme he's being incorporated into, and the stability of the system, amongst other things.

I went back and looked at the D-linemen taken over the past two years to see if there were any guys who we skipped over who we should regret right now. I can go back to 2006, but remember that thats the year we took #52 Rocky McIntosh (given we traded up, but I forget the trade). Interesting thing happened that year. We had no first rounder, and there were no defensive linemen taken until the end of the second round (Darryl Tapp).

Another thing that needs to be looked at in all of this is that a lot of teams draft players at OLB and move them to DE. I didn't look at stuff like that. I just went to the draft history and looked at the guys who were called D-linemen and looked at their stats.

But I agree with the concept of youth. The question I have is whats the difference between a first or second round bust and an UDFA bust? Of corse its much easier to erase an UDFA bust than it is to replace a first day bust.

But I also wonder if the strategy is just to draft DL (or any position) for the sake of drafting DL. There's the lottery chance that this guy will develop into a pro bowl caliber player (even if the scouting department and coaches aren't too high on him initially). And that lottery chance gets higher as we get higher in the draft. But I think that needs to be compared to the rest of the pact to see how much a certain player seperates himself - other than just with stats.

Cause I'm wondering how Montgomery and Golston (particularly Montgomery) compare to the first day picks in the 2006 draft. I know that Golston started games his rookie year, and Montgomery started 16 games in 2007, then they both started games last year.

Other than Williams, Ngata, and Kiwanuka I haven't heard too many names from the 2006 draft, and those guys were gone well before our pick. Maybe I'll do more research on the 2006 draft class's stats.

[#98QBKiller]

Actually, I think its been posted here that we were amongst the teams that blitzed the most often.

But I do think we should consider looking at a blitzinf OLB (to go along with a DT to collapse the pocket).


I'd like to see those stats if available.

The only game I remember blitzing a lot in was the Pittsburgh game, I guess Blache wanted to take advantage of Pittsburgh's pass protection problems?

[TerpSkin]

A couple things I'd like to point out or stress regarding the original post:

First, like you said, DL take time to develop as well, so now we are in the position once again of having to wait if we finally decide to draft a DL high in the draft. Combine that with my opinion (and seemingly the opinion of many of the consistent playoff teams) that (while nice to have a great DL and great WRs) building a great DL should get priority over building a great WR corps, and it is a little upsetting thinking about the path we chose.

Second, just like I defend Thomas and Kelly and Davis (yes, I defend them even though I would have liked to draft DL) because of the situation they were drafted into, you can defend guys like Laws and Campbell (the guys I wanted to draft instead of Thomas and Davis). The talent in front of Laws and Campbell on their respective teams is greater than the talent we have at DL on the Skins. Had they come to the Skins, they would have instantly been more significant parts of our rotation due to the lack of talent in front of them. Moreover, had we drafted Campbell, we would not have traded for Taylor (who didn't do much more than these rookies) and we'd still have our 2nd rounder going into this upcoming season.

[TerpSkin]

Also, I should say that while they may not have lots of sacks and tackles, Campbell and Laws are contributing members (they are actually out on the field fairly often) to DLs that put a lot of pressure on QBs and help force a lot of turnovers. So far, our rookie WRs have not been contributing members to a successful unit... again, I still defend our rookies and am optimistic they will be very successful.

[Thinking Skins]

A couple things I'd like to point out or stress regarding the original post:

First, like you said, DL take time to develop as well, so now we are in the position once again of having to wait if we finally decide to draft a DL high in the draft. Combine that with my opinion (and seemingly the opinion of many of the consistent playoff teams) that (while nice to have a great DL and great WRs) building a great DL should get priority over building a great WR corps, and it is a little upsetting thinking about the path we chose.


Ok, but here we arrive at my question. Should we be drafting what will develop into mediocre (at best) talent along the DL, when we could have an all pro WR combo? And whats the difference between what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 1 vs what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 2?

The thing that I think fans are just starting to realize is that we are not just one position away from a SB team. We haven't been for a while. And so if we can sure up enough of these holes on a year to year basis, then we have a chance of being a playoff team on a year to year basis.



Second, just like I defend Thomas and Kelly and Davis (yes, I defend them even though I would have liked to draft DL) because of the situation they were drafted into, you can defend guys like Laws and Campbell (the guys I wanted to draft instead of Thomas and Davis). The talent in front of Laws and Campbell on their respective teams is greater than the talent we have at DL on the Skins. Had they come to the Skins, they would have instantly been more significant parts of our rotation due to the lack of talent in front of them. Moreover, had we drafted Campbell, we would not have traded for Taylor (who didn't do much more than these rookies) and we'd still have our 2nd rounder going into this upcoming season.

Maybe, but still I wonder. I honestly thought that E. James would be the thing to sure up our DE position (boy was I wrong). But its hard to judge the impact of a DT, especially without watching the games. Is he collapsing the pocket? Is he demanding double teams? Is he allowing his defensive ends to get sacks? And are these things the things he's being asked to do?

The main question I have is what seems to be Vinny's philosophy regarding linemen. It seems like other than the physical dominating players who also go all out on every play (and happen to be gone by the top 10 picks in the draft), the draft is full of people who are either guys who just have all the talent in the world, but haven't learned how to apply it yet; or guys who are limited talent-wise, but will go out and give their all.

And it seems that many of these high linemen picks go towards some guys who are limited talent-wise, but will go out and give their all. The twist is that these guys go to big schools like "The Ohio State University" or LSU or USC or Florida, etc and that just makes their stock rise more and more. But is a limited talent work horse from LSU that much better than a limited talent work horse from some small college in the middle of Texas?

This year, it seems we're in a position to get a really DOMINANT DT. I think this is the same spot where the Ravens got Ngata 2 years ago. If we can get somebody like that, then I'd be impressed, but I don't want another Kenard Lang.

[Thinking Skins]

Also, I should say that while they may not have lots of sacks and tackles, Campbell and Laws are contributing members (they are actually out on the field fairly often) to DLs that put a lot of pressure on QBs and help force a lot of turnovers. So far, our rookie WRs have not been contributing members to a successful unit... again, I still defend our rookies and am optimistic they will be very successful.

Well I think that Thomas did a good job increasing his involvement throughout the year. I hope Kelly is more involved next year. But Thomas gives me hope that he can have an impact second year like some other recent big WRs have too.

[TerpSkin]

Should we be drafting what will develop into mediocre (at best) talent along the DL, when we could have an all pro WR combo? And whats the difference between what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 1 vs what will be mediocre (at best) talent on day 2?


This year, it seems we're in a position to get a really DOMINANT DT. I think this is the same spot where the Ravens got Ngata 2 years ago. If we can get somebody like that, then I'd be impressed, but I don't want another Kenard Lang.

Well, obviously, if you KNOW the WR prospect is going to be all-pro and the DL prospect is going to be mediocre at best then you go with the WR. But that is not, was not, never has been, and never will be the situation. For the most part, these playoff teams (Giants, Eagles, Ravens, Titans, Panthers being the most glaring examples), are drafting DL up high over and over again -- year in and year out. It's not because they scout DL so well, but because they try over and over again.

Why? Because they feel (and I agree) that a dominant DL is probably the most valuable area for a TEAM to be dominant and deep (with the possible exception of QB). That is where you can reduce even the NFL's best offenses to nothing... that is where you can create easy points for your offense (even if it is one of the league's worst offenses)... that is where you can walk away from a game giving fans the false impression that you play with more "swagger" and cliche things like that, when the truth is you just have more talented studs in the most violent area of the game -- the DL.

The reason we haven't drafted DL (and OL for that matter) as much as most teams and certainly not as much as most consistently successful teams is not because of the best player available approach... it is because we (as an organization -- I am not a Vinny basher) have mistakenly not valued DL (and OL) as much as they should be valued and therefore DL (and OL) prospects are farther down our draft boards than they are on other teams' draft boards.

Anybody claiming that we simply have mysteriously always been drafting in a position where linemen aren't the BPA for so many years is ignoring the obvious fact that we have proven to be one of the most (if not THE most) willing teams to move up and down in the draft. When we wanted it, we moved to the appropriate place in the draft to get guys like Cooley, McIntosh, and Jason Campbell... but never for a lineman.

[LeftCoast Skinz FAN]

I will tell you one thing, I like the fact that we drafted two BIG WRs. I am excited to see Thomas and Kelly out there next year making plays. That is exactly what we need at WR, big, tall widereceivers that can push these little DBs around. I have been really impressed the last couple of games of the season seeing Thomas out there getting involved in the offense. I can't wait to see more of it. And let Davis get involved more in the passing game and we will have the most dangerous receiving corps in the NFL:

WR: Moss, Thomas, Randle El, Kelly

TE: Cooley and Davis

I'm excited to see how it works out next year!!!! :point2sky

[fire3fighter4]

This makes no sense. He's pretty good at evaluating talent, but he's an idiot? What over the hill vets has he signed? I assume you're not talking about re-structuring our own players.

The only pick Cerrato gave up I'd like to have back is the 2nd for Taylor and even that looked reasonably smart at the time. If Taylor had stayed healthy and on the field and registered, say, 7-8 sacks, the trade might look pretty good.
Jason Taylor, Bruce smith, Deion Sanders?


How about some of his recent pick ups:
Adam Archuleta
Brandon Llyod
TJ Duckett

[fire3fighter4]

The only pick I really complained about was Tryon. I saw absolutely nothing in this kid, and thought there were better options available....so far he's proved me right. Wasn't that thappy about the Davis pick either, although its still too early to tell how he'll pan out.

[[[ghost]]]

Okoye has battled injuries which has held him back...but with him just turning 21 he has a LONG way to go.


Not necessarily. If his body can only withstand 10 years of the beating that comes with being a lineman in the NFL, he'll just retire at 29.

I'm not gonna lie- I was all about Jamaal Anderson two years ago. I'm glad we took Landry, but I was sure that he'd be like Strahan, and Gaines Adams would've been like Simeon Rice.

[DGREENHULK]

I think Vinny has been a 50/50 guy when it comes to the draft and free agency...and thus we are a 8-8 team. You can't explain away how he has given up the majority of our draft picks over the years in return for aging vets that have limited shelf lives. I do think he made some nice calls with Fred Davis,Devin Thomas and Chris Horton. These 3 are only going to get better and Kareem Moore played well on special teams.....I can somewhat understand his thinking in trading away our future for free agents that could help us win now..if it works and he targets players that fit our system and help us win NOW...but when it blows up in your face and you don't have those future draft picks to recover...well...your screwed.

[Thinking Skins]

I think Vinny has been a 50/50 guy when it comes to the draft and free agency...and thus we are a 8-8 team. You can't explain away how he has given up the majority of our draft picks over the years in return for aging vets that have limited shelf lives. I do think he made some nice calls with Fred Davis,Devin Thomas and Chris Horton. These 3 are only going to get better and Kareem Moore played well on special teams.....In theroy trading away our future for free agents that could help us win now is fine...but when it blows up in your face and you don't have those future draft picks to recover...well...your screwed.

True, but I think where he (and scott campbell) have shined recently (since 2006) is in the late round picks and UDFAs.
I mean we've got
- Golston
- Montgomery
- Alexander
- Blades
- Heyer
- Wilson
- Moore
- Horton
- Colt

Then there are guys like Devin Clark, Rob Jackson, and Buzbee, who are still question marks as to whether they'll be any impact, but the fact that they were able to make the roster should say something.

I don't think that Vinny has a problem in finding talented players at any position. I think his problem is with finding superstars. So I see him much more willing to trade high picks for proven superstars while saving the lower round picks to get the hard working players. I don't agree with it, but thats how I judge his actions lately. And that's kinda why I predict that he'll spend his first focusing on a superstar on the DL (or somewhere else) this year instead of a hard worker on the OL. And if we can't get that superstar, he'll probably trade down.

[DGREENHULK]

True, but I think where he (and scott campbell) have shined recently (since 2006) is in the late round picks and UDFAs.
I mean we've got
- Golston
- Montgomery
- Alexander
- Blades
- Heyer
- Wilson
- Moore
- Horton
- Colt

Then there are guys like Devin Clark, Rob Jackson, and Buzbee, who are still question marks as to whether they'll be any impact, but the fact that they were able to make the roster should say something.

I don't think that Vinny has a problem in finding talented players at any position. I think his problem is with finding superstars. So I see him much more willing to trade high picks for proven superstars while saving the lower round picks to get the hard working players. I don't agree with it, but thats how I judge his actions lately. And that's kinda why I predict that he'll spend his first focusing on a superstar on the DL (or somewhere else) this year instead of a hard worker on the OL. And if we can't get that superstar, he'll probably trade down.


Yup I think there is no question we will NOT be on the clock the the 13th overall selecton come April...I can see Vinny making a deal with someone picking in the late 1st round for our 13th and thier late 1st and late 2nd rounder and that could replace the 2nd he let go to MIA in the J.Taylor deal. But your right Vinny hasn't done a bad job lately...but then again he hasn't found that SUPERSTAR either....lets pray for a stud free agent either on the DL or OL and then come draft day go after the holes still left...

[Skins21!]

I think we had a very good draft last year. It usually takes a season or two for receivers to adjust and make real contributions. Devin Thomas showed a lot of promise near the end of the year as he learned to read defenses. He is a physical specimen. Our offense will be better when he goes to #2 and we put Randle-El in the slot. Zorn couldn't use him that way last year. Fred Davis will be a contributor. Look for a lot of two TE sets next year. That will give safeties nightmares. I just hope Kelly can stay healthy so we can at least use him in the red zone for fade patterns.

[Thinking Skins]

I think we had a very good draft last year. It usually takes a season or two for receivers to adjust and make real contributions. Devin Thomas showed a lot of promise near the end of the year as he learned to read defenses. He is a physical specimen. Our offense will be better when he goes to #2 and we put Randle-El in the slot. Zorn couldn't use him that way last year. Fred Davis will be a contributor. Look for a lot of two TE sets next year. That will give safeties nightmares. I just hope Kelly can stay healthy so we can at least use him in the red zone for fade patterns.

I've been ridiculed for making similar statements last year. This year I think I'm going to wait at least until minicamp before I start making these predictions.

[fire3fighter4]

];6026259']Not necessarily. If his body can only withstand 10 years of the beating that comes with being a lineman in the NFL, he'll just retire at 29.

I'm not gonna lie- I was all about Jamaal Anderson two years ago. I'm glad we took Landry, but I was sure that he'd be like Strahan, and Gaines Adams would've been like Simeon Rice.
the body heals its self a lot better when you're young...He should be able to go till his early 30's like most linemen.

[Stevo]

Jones was a guy who had a good year, but he's playing on a line with Haynesworth.

Jason Jones had 3.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in one of the two games that Haynesworth was out for. That argument does not hold water for him.

I think he is going to be a really good player and wish we would have taken him in the second.

[Shilsu]

I don't get it...

We're not allowed to judge our rookies yet... But we can judge the rest of the draft, despite the fact that almost all of them made bigger contributions than Fred Davis and Malcolm Kelly, and several of them, Devin Thomas?

Also, Jason Jones fills in for Haynesworth... He doesn't play with him...

[Thinking Skins]

Jason Jones had 3.5 sacks and 3 forced fumbles in one of the two games that Haynesworth was out for. That argument does not hold water for him.

I think he is going to be a really good player and wish we would have taken him in the second.

cool. I hadn't checked the game logs. But I hadn't heard too much about him being on people's radar anyway. But he does look like the best guy we passed on so far.

[Thinking Skins]

I don't get it...

We're not allowed to judge our rookies yet... But we can judge the rest of the draft, despite the fact that almost all of them made bigger contributions than Fred Davis and Malcolm Kelly, and several of them, Devin Thomas?

Also, Jason Jones fills in for Haynesworth... He doesn't play with him...

Well, Its just a matter of looking back and trying to ask a question of how much better or worse off we'd be if we had drafted these players. A lot of these guys haven't seen too much playing time, while others (particularly Jones) looked pretty good this year.

I don't want to get to the point where we're calling picks busts or great, or even to the point where we're saying that certain picks are better than another. I just wanted to look at the rookie years of some of the guys we were talking about getting pre-draft and how they did after their rookie year.

I could also include other WRs like Limas Sweed, but his performance is on par with Kelly and Davis. Some of the rookie sensations at WR would be nice guys to compare to Thomas, Davis and Kelly, but in reality though we'd just be talking the same thing as last year....about our WRs being too small and not having a "real number 1", etc.

But this is not to pass judgement, just a chance to look back.

[Shilsu]

cool. I hadn't checked the game logs. But I hadn't heard too much about him being on people's radar anyway. But he does look like the best guy we passed on so far.

Come on man... He's been mentioned several times several months ago... Every single time the Vinny-defenders kept parroting, "I BET NO ONE CAN NAME AN OFFENSIVE OR DEFENSIVE LINEMAN WORTH TAKING AT OUR SPOT".

[Thinking Skins]

Come on man... He's been mentioned several times several months ago... Every single time the Vinny-defenders kept parroting, "I BET NO ONE CAN NAME AN OFFENSIVE OR DEFENSIVE LINEMAN WORTH TAKING AT OUR SPOT".

haha, i don't normally read those posts. But I agree he's the top performing guy we passed on so far. Hopefully our guys come to form.

[Streater101]

But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh:

I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all.


Are you crazy? Snyder could find his next coach, and GM, right here on extremeskins. Our front office should just reach and draft anyone just because they play a position we need help at :doh:

Also, there are plenty of WR who have had success right out the gate. Thats not to say that our guys bums because they didn't, however.

[Skins PR]

But wait, I thought Vinny was an idiot and the people on this board were better GM's?:doh:

I'm glad we got some young Wr's which take a while to groom anyway. Doesn't look lke the D-lineman turned out to be so great after all.

Vinny is an idiot and some of the people on this board would do better as GM.

[Chiefinonhaze]

Vinny is an idiot and some of the people on this board would do better as GM.

Really? This isn't fantasy football. Not only do these guys have to evaluate the talent, they have to evaluate how they fit into the roster. They also have to consider things as cap ramifications, BPA, and they actually have a lot more information to work with then we do. You wouldn't believe how much information they have to analyze to prepare for the draft. Not only combine numbers, but game film, injury history, etc.

It's really not as easy as these E-Coaches think it is.

I'm not saying Vinny is a great GM, but he is a whole lot better at it then anyone on this board. People tend to forget the draft is a crap shoot, and most of these guys are hit or miss.

[Yusuf06]

vinny is not an idiot. he is good at evaluating talent. he just needs to get over the whole notion that stud lineman can be picked up in the late rounds and stop giving away draft picks.
I've got some real nice swampland....'er prime real estate in Florida that I'd like to talk with you about.

[Yusuf06]

Really? This isn't fantasy football. Not only do these guys have to evaluate the talent, they have to evaluate how they fit into the roster. They also have to consider things as cap ramifications, BPA, and they actually have a lot more information to work with then we do. You wouldn't believe how much information they have to analyze to prepare for the draft. Not only combine numbers, but game film, injury history, etc.

It's really not as easy as these E-Coaches think it is.

I'm not saying Vinny is a great GM, but he is a whole lot better at it then anyone on this board. People tend to forget the draft is a crap shoot, and most of these guys are hit or miss.
Wow, first Squatch and now you. This is getting creepy.:paranoid: It's starting to look like Danny has assigned staff to the board to pump up Vinnie's rep.:paranoid:

[maskedsuperstar]

This makes no sense. He's pretty good at evaluating talent, but he's an idiot? What over the hill vets has he signed? I assume you're not talking about re-structuring our own players.

The only pick Cerrato gave up I'd like to have back is the 2nd for Taylor and even that looked reasonably smart at the time. If Taylor had stayed healthy and on the field and registered, say, 7-8 sacks, the trade might look pretty good.


Right, and nobody would be crying the blues. But how did Vinny know that Taylor would be hurt for most of the season? And anyway, Blache wants to stop the run first.

[maskedsuperstar]

Really? This isn't fantasy football. Not only do these guys have to evaluate the talent, they have to evaluate how they fit into the roster. They also have to consider things as cap ramifications, BPA, and they actually have a lot more information to work with then we do. You wouldn't believe how much information they have to analyze to prepare for the draft. Not only combine numbers, but game film, injury history, etc.

It's really not as easy as these E-Coaches think it is.

I'm not saying Vinny is a great GM, but he is a whole lot better at it then anyone on this board. People tend to forget the draft is a crap shoot, and most of these guys are hit or miss.

Its a big crap shoot. Glen Dorsey, I believe he went in the top 5 in last years draft. So far has been a bust for KC. All the scouts can do is evaluate. They have no idea what these kids are going to do on Sunday.
And Darren Woodson has said many times, "Just because your name is called on Saturday, doesn't mean you can play on Sunday."
That point is proven every year.

[maskedsuperstar]

Vinny is an idiot and some of the people on this board would do better as GM.

Well, can you do it the job? The first time the player you drafted didn't work out, can you take the heat from the fans? You can draft the best player in college. Doesn't mean he can play at the next level.
Scott Campbell and Morocco Brown can do the job.

[maskedsuperstar]

Are you crazy? Snyder could find his next coach, and GM, right here on extremeskins. Our front office should just reach and draft anyone just because they play a position we need help at :doh:

Also, there are plenty of WR who have had success right out the gate. Thats not to say that our guys bums because they didn't, however.

Name 10 WR's that had success right out the gate. I know 2 you will probably think of. Eddie Royal and Desean Jackson. Eddie Royal started fast and ran out of gas. Jackson? The Eagles don't have any other threats and the Skins shut him down twice.

8 more please!

[jfriedenthal]

Name 10 WR's that had success right out the gate. I know 2 you will probably think of. Eddie Royal and Desean Jackson. Eddie Royal started fast and ran out of gas. Jackson? The Eagles don't have any other threats and the Skins shut him down twice.

8 more please!

Except for his Kick or Punt return for a TD in the first game.

[wildbill1952]

The reason we haven't drafted DL (and OL for that matter) as much as most teams and certainly not as much as most consistently successful teams is not because of the best player available approach... it is because we (as an organization -- I am not a Vinny basher) have mistakenly not valued DL (and OL) as much as they should be valued and therefore DL (and OL) prospects are farther down our draft boards than they are on other teams' draft boards.That's kind of a "back door bash", in that it seems to indicate that other teams value OL and DL more. Our record would indicate they were right and we were wrong.

The real flaw in the BPA approach, is that, although you can compare one QB to another and one WR to another, there is no method in the BPA approach for comparing a WR to a QB to an OT to a DE. Realistically how can there be? OL never score touchdowns. DE never catch passes in the endzone. A DT never throws an 80 yard bomb for a score. So if you know that an OL is the best center or guard or tackle, then why don't you pick those over another TE when you already have a Pro Bowl TE? For the sake of argument, I'll agree that our pick was the best TE available in the draft. Chilo Rachal was the best OG on the board at the time. What made the TE the better pick? Maybe, one day we'll all look back on this and agree Vinny was a genius. I doubt it, but maybe he's right. Someone just explain to me why we made this pick when half the board seemed to recognize that our OL was in trouble. And if the amateurs saw it, why didn't Vinny?

Vinny is on the record as saying he does not think drafting for need is a good idea because "you might end up with a bunch of players that aren't that good" as compared to the BPA approach. His use of the BPA approach created a team where we have some outstanding talent in some areas and "a bunch of players that aren't that good", most notably the OL and DL. It's not a conspiracy theory. I just feel he doesn't understand the importance of a good OL to the offense nor the importance of a good DL to the defense. Otherwise, as you point out, OL and DL would be higher on our draft boards.

In my book, for a GM to lack that knowledge would make him dumber than a doorknob.

[TerpSkin]

That's kind of a "back door bash", in that it seems to indicate that other teams value OL and DL more.

Actually, I meant it as a very front door bash saying exactly what you said. The difference is that I am not and have not been of the folks who lays it all at the feet of Vinny. Until this last season, it has never been clear who exactly was calling the shots. We think it was Gibbs during the Gibbs years, and we know it was Marty during his year. And even in the Vinny year(s), you have to think he is taking into account the input from his coaches on what they feel the biggest needs are. The actual selections we have been making seem to be of good value though, so in that sense I feel Vinny (and the organization) is doing well. But I agree, that it seems pretty dumb (to me at least) not to value linemen more than we do.

As for the BPA approach, I think you'll find (if you read past posts of mine) that I agree with you and have offered many arguments similar to yours. But I also think it is just lip-service. I think GMs (and Vinny) say publicly that they take the BPA just so that their draft picks think that that is what their employer thinks of them. It is probably unwise to draft a guy and then come out and say, "well, he wasn't the best player we could get but we sure needed help at his position."

I think Vinny and other GMs understand you have to find the Best Value-Added-to-your-specific-team Available player and say they took the BPA for PR reasons. Remember, when talking about the first day of the draft last season, Vinny said he always takes BPA and blah, blah, blah and then he said something like, "but I guarantee we won't be taking another WR on the second day." That statement proves that he in fact does not take BPA (despite what he says publicly) or he could not possibly guarantee that.

[Streater101]

Name 10 WR's that had success right out the gate. I know 2 you will probably think of. Eddie Royal and Desean Jackson. Eddie Royal started fast and ran out of gas. Jackson? The Eagles don't have any other threats and the Skins shut him down twice.

8 more please!

Sorry for my tardiness, but f you look at my join date, then my total number of post you can see that I don't check extremeskins that often.

Larry Fitzgerald
Mark Clayton
Marques Colston
Randy Moss
Anquan Boldin
Andre Johnson
Torry Holt
Jerricho Cotchery
Dwayne Bowe
Braylon Edwards
Lee Evans

are some that come to mind. Some players were outstanding out the gate (Evans, Boldin, Moss,etc...) and some were solid (Cotchery,Fitzgerald,Johnson,etc...) The list looks even better when you consider their sophomore campaigns. So really, if you wanted to describe a pattern of developing WR's, then you should probably look at them on a 2 year basis, not 3.

You should watch more football dude. I came up with that list w/o even using google, I'm sure I could dig up more if I did.