Yahoo: Go East, young man? Californians look for the exit

[Oldskool]

Be prepared for some new neighbors if you haven't already. The other shoe has finally started to fall on the left coast.

... __ __ ...

By MICHAEL R. BLOOD, Associated Press Writer Michael R. Blood, Associated Press Writer – Mon Jan 12, 5:40 pm ET

LOS ANGELES – Mike Reilly spent his lifetime chasing the California dream. This year he's going to look for it in Colorado.

With a house purchase near Denver in the works, the 38-year-old engineering contractor plans to move his family 1,200 miles away from his home state's lemon groves, sunshine and beaches. For him, years of rising taxes, dead-end schools, unchecked illegal immigration and clogged traffic have robbed the Golden State of its allure.

Is there something left of the California dream?

"If you are a Hollywood actor," Reilly says, "but not for us."

Since the days of the Gold Rush, California has represented the Promised Land, an image celebrated in the songs of the Beach Boys and embodied by Silicon Valley's instant millionaires and the young men and women who achieve stardom in Hollywood.

But for many California families last year, tomorrow started somewhere else.

The number of people leaving California for another state outstripped the number moving in from another state during the year ending on July 1, 2008. California lost a net total of 144,000 people during that period — more than any other state, according to census estimates. That is about equal to the population of Syracuse, N.Y.

The state with the next-highest net loss through migration between states was New York, which lost just over 126,000 residents.

California's loss is extremely small in a state of 38 million. And, in fact, the state's population continues to increase overall because of births and immigration, legal and illegal. But it is the fourth consecutive year that more residents decamped from California for other states than arrived here from within the U.S.

A losing streak that long hasn't happened in California since the recession of the early 1990s, when departures outstripped arrivals from other states by 362,000 in 1994 alone.

In part because of the boom in population in other Western states, California could lose a congressional seat for the first time in its history.

Why are so many looking for an exit?

Among other things: California's unemployment rate hit 8.4 percent in November, the third-highest in the nation, and it is expected to get worse. A record 236,000 foreclosures are projected for 2008, more than the prior nine years combined, according to research firm MDA DataQuick. Personal income was about flat last year.

With state government facing a $41.6 billion budget hole over 18 months, residents are bracing for higher taxes, cuts in education and postponed tax rebates. A multibillion-dollar plan to remake downtown Los Angeles has stalled, and office vacancy rates there and in San Diego and San Jose surpass the 10.2 percent national average.

Median housing prices have nose-dived one-third from a 2006 peak, but many homes are still out of reach for middle-class families. Some small towns are on the brink of bankruptcy. Normally recession-proof Hollywood has been hit by layoffs.

For the rest of the story, follow the link below

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090112/ap_on_re_us/fleeing_california_3

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

I love D.C. But I'd also love to move back to Southern California one day. No place like it.

[81artmonk]

Yeah and our reps think that screwing us some more will improve the situtation. Idiots, their all idiots.

I was born here, and still live here, yet I foresee a day when I might acually leave for another state.

I live in a pretty rual part of Southern cali and it's not bad. We don't have to deal with nearly as much traffic as in the more metropolitan areas. However, going to disneyland or LA to see sports is a complete nightmare.

My old neighborhood which was a good one, has been overrun by mexicans and gangs.

Most of the towns have been depleated by lower income housing and turned a once nice city into not so nice.

I don't live there, I moved to a higher income town, where we can barely afford to live, but like I say, if the undesireables can't afford it, it keeps the city free of low lifes and crime. So I count my blessings.

I can't imagine living anywhere else, but we keep moving further east in california to get away from the growing mexican population and crime.

[Califan007]

Good, maybe the traffic will lighten up now :cool:

[Special K]

I hate Southern California, effing HATE IT.

I'm very happy about moving to Colorado next year. :D

P.S. NorCal is still cool though, up where my parents live it's all mountains and outdoorsy stuff, so I'd be happy to be back there. But yes, the economic/political/everything situation in Cali sucks tuna water.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Yeah I can't stand brown people either 81artmonk so I feel ya on that. Definitely one of the downsides of living in SoCal.

[Mickalino]

I have Insomnia and I'm lonely.....is anyone else online now ?

[DeanCollins]

In the late '70's 6 of my childhood friends moved to the south bay (Hermosa, Rendondo). Myself and a couple others moved there in '80. I left in 6 months for FL, because I didn't care for the social climate. The original 6 stayed for a couple decades, now all but 2 have moved back east, and those 2 are desperately trying to find jobs so that they can move back. 3 out of 6 bought homes and lost them, exhausting their retirement savings trying to save the homes during the '90s housing calapse. The other 3 rented all those years and have nothing to show for it. The CA dream turned into a nightmare.

[Special K]

In the late '70's 6 of my childhood friends moved to the south bay (Hermosa, Rendondo). Myself and a couple others moved there in '80. I left in 6 months for FL, because I didn't care for the social climate. The original 6 stayed for a couple decades, now all but 2 have moved back east, and those 2 are desperately trying to find jobs so that they can move back. 3 out of 6 bought homes and lost them, exhausting their retirement savings trying to save the homes during the '90s housing calapse. The other 3 rented all those years and have nothing to show for it. The CA dream turned into a nightmare.
Interesting you'd use that example because almost the entire side of my dad's family moved out here from D.C. and would never even remotely entertain the idea of moving back there.

[Mark The Homer]

My family left in the 70s for many of those reasons.

[KAOSkins]

We got them coming here in droves. I suppose there are some benefits, real estate values are actually still going up here (or at least not going down) and they've brought a market for some higher end consumer goods that I enjoy too.

[DeanCollins]

Interesting you'd use that example because almost the entire side of my dad's family moved out here from D.C. and would never even remotely entertain the idea of moving back there.

do you mean northern CA? I wouldn't move back to DC either, but I think the majority moved back because of friends and family.

[stoney26]

I hate living in VA. Especially Stafford. There is absolutly NOTHING to do here. As soon as I sell my house Im moving to San Diego. I have family in LA, Palm Springs, and Phoenix. God I cant wait!! This place is depressing beyond belief. If I didnt smoke weed I would have killed myself by now. :doh:

[G-Prime]

I miss San Diego =(

[Toe Jam]

Colorado and South Carolina=amazing.

[Koolblue13]

Try living in Jersey. Highest prop taxes in the Nation, some of the highest corp taxes and 7% sales tax, while still being $8 billion in the hole.

These folks could simply move 15 minutes across the river into beautiful PA and with what they save on Prop taxes alone, have a second mortgage.

[TMK9973]

I miss Southern CA every day since I've moved back to DC....

[PeterMP]

Try living in Jersey. Highest prop taxes in the Nation, some of the highest corp taxes and 7% sales tax, while still being $8 billion in the hole.

These folks could simply move 15 minutes across the river into beautiful PA and with what they save on Prop taxes alone, have a second mortgage.
Depends on where you live in NJ and what bridge you are talking about. I bought a bigger place on more land for less money then I could "across the bridge" in PA.

[zoony]

Try living in Jersey. Highest prop taxes in the Nation, some of the highest corp taxes and 7% sales tax, while still being $8 billion in the hole.

These folks could simply move 15 minutes across the river into beautiful PA and with what they save on Prop taxes alone, have a second mortgage.

I will never, ever, not in a million years... understand the decision to live in New Jersey. There is simply no logic to it on any level.

.....

[BigMike619]

I hate Southern California, effing HATE IT.

I'm very happy about moving to Colorado next year. :D

P.S. NorCal is still cool though, up where my parents live it's all mountains and outdoorsy stuff, so I'd be happy to be back there. But yes, the economic/political/everything situation in Cali sucks tuna water.

lets be real here, you hate SoCal because you are an outdoors and mountain type girl. Not because of anything SoCal has done. There is just as much to do down here as there is up there but you just prefer it up in NO Cal. :silly:

personally I cant wait for the state to lighten up so that I dont have to worry about anyone else moving in to try and take our jobs and crowd our beaches.

[Kilmer17]

SW Fla is what Southern Cal was 30+ years ago.

[DeanCollins]

SW Fla is what Southern Cal was 30+ years ago.

:cheers: For what you'd have to spend on a starter home in a not so great neighborhood in SoCal, I bought a 2100 sq/ft waterfront home, on a dead end street peninsula, on the intercoastal waterway .5 mile from the beach in a golf club community. How many of our left coasters own a home?

[BigMike619]

thats hysterical that you think SW FL is anywhere near comparable to CA.

[rincewind]

I will never, ever, not in a million years... understand the decision to live in New Jersey. There is simply no logic to it on any level.

.....



Living close to the City that never sleeps? Better food than anywhere else in the nation? The beaches? The Delaware Water Gap? Princeton?

[DeanCollins]

thats hysterical that you think SW FL is anywhere near comparable to CA.

Oh here we go with the famous SoCal exclusivity bravado :laugh:

Tell us about your quality of life BigMike ;)

[The Evil Genius]

I will never live back east again. Like most people, I moved to California and won't ever leave.

Why would I?

Better weather, no humidity, better food, etc out here.

[Kilmer17]

I hope everyone continues to think SW FLA is something it;s not.

[BigMike619]

Oh here we go with the famous SoCal exclusivity bravado :laugh:

Tell us about your quality of life BigMike ;)

you ever hear of the green flash?

[China]

Wow. I always thought Michigan was one of the leaders in people abandoning their state. Gotta get away from that failing auto industry. I guess Michigan has been losing population for so long that there aren't that many left.


Michigan's loss rate increased, with an estimated 46,368 fewer people in the state on July 1, 2008. The bureau estimated the state lost 34,000 people the year before, and nearly 10,000 in 2006.

If the state maintains its losses for another year, its population could fall below 10 million for the first time since 2000. According to the Census Bureau, Michigan has 10,003,422 people.

The Census Bureau uses birth and death records, as well as income tax returns to gauge population trends. The estimates, however, do not affect a state's federal funding, which is based instead on the decennial Census counts.

Driving the state's decline is another increase in movement to other states. The state had a net loss of 109,257 people to domestic migration, up from 95,787 a year earlier and 57,257 in 2005. Immigration from abroad continued its decline as well, with just 16,627 coming to Michigan, down from its recent high of 23,328 in 2001.

Link (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081222/METRO03/812220393)

[The Evil Genius]

Remember - its also a scale issue. Based on percentage of population leaving, I wonder where California ranks. I would guess, near the bottom.

Besides, its not like the net result was less population for the state anyways. New births more than made up for the # of people leaving. It's frightening to think that this state will have 20 million more people in the next 25 years.

For all the negatives that this article posts and the sizable hole in the state budget, lets remember that State of California still has a top 8 GDP in the WORLD, falling somewhere between Italy and Spain (and it accounts for nearly 1/6 of the US's GDP).

[DeanCollins]

I hope everyone continues to think SW FLA is something it;s not.

Agreed, however, St. Pete is been built out for decades. But because it's a peninsula, there is no traffic. You can't drive through a dead end to get to somewhere else. There's never any lines at events, restaurants, the beach... it just very laid back, especially during the off season. So we can have all the growth to the north and south and it really doesn't affect us at all. If I was going to move out west, it would definitely be Colorado or Hawaii. But both of those places are isolated in their own ways. Hawaii is appealing, to me, because of the proximity to the Pacific islands, AU/NZ and the east.

[DeanCollins]

you ever hear of the green flash?

is that like what happens when exiting a not so clean apt. swimming pool, sans bathing suit. :laugh:

[BigMike619]

here bud, since you must have missed one of my "braggings" about it.

http://sandiegopictures.org/greenflash1/index.htm

[BigMike619]

is that like what happens when exiting a not so clean apt. swimming pool, sans bathing suit. :laugh:


here bud, since you must have missed one of my "braggings" about it.

http://sandiegopictures.org/greenflash1/index.htm


mmhmmm....:silly:

[DeanCollins]

I've never seen one, maybe it's a pollution thing like the sunset. :silly:

[rincewind]

Mike - millions of hot chicks in bikinis and quite possibly the best weather in America and you brag about a small green spot in the sky?

[BigMike619]

I've never seen one, maybe it's a pollution thing like the sunset. :silly:

denial aint just a river in Egypt either..


Mike - millions of hot chicks in bikinis and quite possibly the best weather in America and you brag about a small green spot in the sky?

I was trying to be original...we ALL know that about SoCal bro. The Beach Boys told us a LONG time ago..

[Midnight Judges]

I used to work for a defense contractor. We were able to get people to move to Warren Michigan, Rock Island Illinois, Huntsville Alabama, etc. We were never able to convince anyone to move to New Jersey.

[China]

you ever hear of the green flash?

Are you telling me you've seen the green flash?

I've tried many times to witness it on the west coast of Florida.

[BigMike619]

Are you telling me you've seen the green flash?

I've tried many times to witness it on the west coast of Florida.

Of COURSE I have. I have seen it several times in my 15 years out here on the best coast.

can you even see it from FL though? seriously...

[Koolblue13]

Depends on where you live in NJ and what bridge you are talking about. I bought a bigger place on more land for less money then I could "across the bridge" in PA.

That is true, but in this area (a little north of where I think you are) it is.

[Koolblue13]

Living close to the City that never sleeps? Better food than anywhere else in the nation? The beaches? The Delaware Water Gap? Princeton?

I am an hour from every one of those things and 5 minutes from Jersey.

3 bedroom house on 5 acres- $300k. The money you would save being 5/10 minutes away in Jersey, you could buy a house in the Poconos as well.

[CalSkinsFan]

I am one of those 144,00. I lived in the relatively small towns of Ventura, Oxnard, and Santa Barbara for 22 years.

Moved back mostly because of family, part partially because of many of the reasons stated in the article (housing costs, traffic, politics, illegal immigration). And the Redkins of course :silly:.

I loved that part of CA, but could never afford to buy a house (I just bought here) without a long commute or buying in less desirable neiborhoods, neither of which I was willing to do, especially considering I could rent near the beach for half of what a mortgage would be.

Traffic and sprawl continues to get worse and worse, with no plan to deal with it.

I had great times in my 22 years out there, but it was time for me to return.

I do miss that weather, tho, especially this time of year :(.

[deejaydana]

I've lived in California for quite a long time now & I can't imagine a better state BUT quality of life has really gone downhill in many areas over the past 10 years. We have the most fiscally irresponsible state government in the Union who bank on the fact that more people will always want to move here. What has deteriorated life here is a gov't that doesn't make any effort to address illegal immigration and one that seeks to continually grow gov't at the expense of the taxpayer. We have the highest taxed state in the union for both businesses and individuals and come each election year, voters blindly sign off on each bond measure as if there's no consequence in doing so. Oh yes, and we're 42 BILLION dollars in the hole and, much like all these strapped companies, we'll be joining the line for our loan from the Feds. And yet, Sacramento will never admit there is a problem or even attempt to change their profligate ways.

With all that said, it still trumps every other state I've lived in...hands down.

[pjfootballer]

I was born in DC and raised in Southern MD. I left for college in 86 and didn't come back until 1994. I only stayed 3 years back in MD. I don't like what Southern MD has become. I go back to visit family (will be there this Friday to visit my grandmother), but I'd never move back there. I've lived in Memphis, Alexandria and West Palm Beach. I liked all 3 places at the time, but won't go back. I don't mind living near Charlotte, but I would like to move to West Tennessee. Chattanooga to be exact. No state tax, mountains, rivers, trees. My wife on the other hand wants to live near a beach. We don't make that kind of money to afford that.

[BigMike619]

I guess I dont get the whole "quality of life" argument. The quality is still here and nothing has changed except for the price of a house and gas IMO. And now I dont have to go to Vegas to gamble, I can do so right up the road.

as far as "quality" I guess I dont get how it gets much better then Southern California. If I go an hour east I am in the desert. If I go an hour north I am in the snow. If I go an hour south I am in Rosarito. and I dont have to even go an hour west to hit the ocean. There is something for everyone here...

[Kilmer17]

I guess I dont get the whole "quality of life" argument. The quality is still here and nothing has changed except for the price of a house and gas IMO. And now I dont have to go to Vegas to gamble, I can do so right up the road.

as far as "quality" I guess I dont get how it gets much better then Southern California. If I go an hour east I am in the desert. If I go an hour north I am in the snow. If I go an hour south I am in Rosarito. and I dont have to even go an hour west to hit the ocean. There is something for everyone here...

You just described SW FLA with a few exceptions. Our housing is still inexpensive and we dont have any traffic.

[KAOSkins]

You just described SW FLA with a few exceptions. Our housing is still inexpensive and we dont have any traffic.

You don't have any snow to be fair. LA was the best geographically located place I ever lived. It had everything close by. Too many people ruined it though.

[deejaydana]

There is something for everyone here...


That's just it, there really is something for everyone. You can literally surf and ski/snowboard (if you do it early enough) on the same day. Los Angeles has one of the most vibrant and diverse populations in the world, much less the country. Nor Cal and So Cal are like completely different states but they're both amazing in their own ways. Oh yes, and it was in the mid 80's yesterday and it's mid January.

There is a ton of jealousy out there when people put down the California experience. I just don't like it when people badmouth it and they've never been here or visited for one week.

[BigMike619]

You just described SW FLA with a few exceptions. Our housing is still inexpensive and we dont have any traffic.

but arent you willing to make some sacrifices in order to live there? I know I am and I dont mind the traffic in order to be able to sit on the water whenever I want.

[Kilmer17]

but arent you willing to make some sacrifices in order to live there? I know I am and I dont mind the traffic in order to be able to sit on the water whenever I want.

Sure. I cant go out to dinner in Feb and March because of Snowbirds. Other than that.........

Im not putting down CA at all. Im just pointing out that its arrogant as hell to think CA has no rivals. SW FLA as I said is precicely what SoCal was 3 decades ago. Sleepy beach towns and all that.

[BigMike619]

Sure. I cant go out to dinner in Feb and March because of Snowbirds. Other than that.........

Im not putting down CA at all. Im just pointing out that its arrogant as hell to think CA has no rivals. SW FLA as I said is precicely what SoCal was 3 decades ago. Sleepy beach towns and all that.

I dont think you are putting down So Cal at all either. I get that you want to compete with the big dog but face it FL just cant hang with us. :silly:

[/end arrogance]

[deejaydana]

Im not putting down CA at all. Im just pointing out that its arrogant as hell to think CA has no rivals. SW FLA as I said is precicely what SoCal was 3 decades ago. Sleepy beach towns and all that.

There's a fine line between pride and arrogance...;)

[China]

Of COURSE I have. I have seen it several times in my 15 years out here on the best coast.

can you even see it from FL though? seriously...

People have reported seeing it in Florida. Maybe it's rarer in Florida, and thus more special when you see the green flash there.

[The Evil Genius]

California's income tax is the highest mainly because it suffers from Prop 13, low property taxes, and from an average sales tax.

While states like Illinois have a low income tax (only 3% flat rate vs. California top rate of 10.5% if you fall under the maximum percent), they make up for with very high sales taxes and property taxes.

So in the end, the net result is minimal.

[BigMike619]

People have reported seeing it in Florida. Maybe it's rarer in Florida, and thus more special when you see the green flash there.

and thats just one more reason that Cali is better. :silly:

[CalSkinsFan]

as far as "quality" I guess I dont get how it gets much better then Southern California. If I go an hour east I am in the desert. If I go an hour north I am in the snow. If I go an hour south I am in Rosarito. and I dont have to even go an hour west to hit the ocean. There is something for everyone here...

No arguments there ... Ventura is pretty much the same (except the Mexico part, of course), with an Indian casino an hour away in Santa Ynez that is fun mountain drive.

I used to do all that fun stuff, but now that I am old, fat, and slow :silly:, I rarely do anymore.

Age group certainly may make a difference in how one looks at the "quality of life".

:2cents:

[DeanCollins]

I dont think you are putting down So Cal at all either. I get that you want to compete with the big dog but face it FL just cant hang with us. :silly:

[/end arrogance]

sounds like tired Harley Davidson rhetoric :rolleyes: and that's all that you've really got. And as far as being able to drive to the desert (oh boy :cool:), Cali skiing bites outside of Tahoe, which is iffy because of the low el. (read melting or no snow). Your mountains are polluted (air) and usually on fire. So that leaves the beaches which are over crowded with mexicans, gangs, weirdos, and gheys.

I can drive 15 minutes to arguably the countries best airport and fly to Denver non stop in 2.5 hours, drive another 1.5 hours and I'm in my townhouse in Breckenridge. Fly 1 hour, drive 1.5 hours and I'm at my home in the Blueridge. Why can I do these things? Because the cost of living here in SW FL is so much lower that I was able buy homes, save money and have a better life. I just can't beat my chest and say that "I'm a Californian" darn. :silly:

[deejaydana]

California's income tax is the highest mainly because it suffers from Prop 13, low property taxes, and from an average sales tax.

While states like Illinois have a low income tax (only 3% flat rate vs. California top rate of 10.5% if you fall under the maximum percent), they make up for with very high sales taxes and property taxes.

So in the end, the net result is minimal.

I think the Califorina "suffers" (RE: Prop 13) line of thinking is something that is completely invented and perpetuated by Sacramento. Even if they had the proceeds of increased property tax from those under Prop 13 they would still find a way to pi** it all away and come back to the taxpayer asking for more.

[BigMike619]

sounds like tired Harley Davidson rhetoric :rolleyes: and that's all that you've really got. And as far as being able to drive to the desert (oh boy :cool:), Cali skiing bites outside of Tahoe, which is iffy because of the low el. (read melting or no snow). Your mountains are polluted (air) and usually on fire. So that leaves the beaches which are over crowded with mexicans, gangs, weirdos, and gheys.

Tahoe is Cali. Big Bear is Cali. Mt Shasta is Cali. Mt Lassen is Cali.

our mountains are polluted? I think you are just looking at So Cal and not the whole state. When I lived up in the mountains north of Chico you could literally drink the water from the creeks because it was just snow runoff and pure.

you got a problem with mexicans and gay people? I dont think you do...or is there something you wanna come out with? ;)

and speaking of Harleys, The Hells Angels were also founded here in Cali.

And I wouldnt go spouting off about Cali having the market cornered on weirdos...Florida isnt exactly Einsteinville. :silly:

[DeanCollins]

Tahoe is Cali. Big Bear is Cali. Mt Shasta is Cali. Mt Lassen is Cali.

our mountains are polluted? I think you are just looking at So Cal and not the whole state. When I lived up in the mountains north of Chico you could literally drink the water from the creeks because it was just snow runoff and pure.

you got a problem with mexicans and gay people? I dont think you do...or is there something you wanna come out with? ;)

and speaking of Harleys, The Hells Angels were also founded here in Cali.

And I wouldnt go spouting off about Cali having the market cornered on weirdos...Florida isnt exactly Einsteinville. :silly:

1/2 of Tahoe is in NV. None of the other places that you mention would make it on the top 100 ski destinations. I do have a problem with being in the minority in my own country. I could definitely do without motorcycle gangs. My discussion here is with SoCal, I love NorCal, I visit it every other year. ;)

[Kilmer17]

I only have problems with Harley riding ghey mexicans. Who, by definition, are weird gang members.

[DeanCollins]

I only have problems with Harley riding ghey mexicans. Who, by definition, are weird gang members.

see see :rotflmao::rotflmao:

[China]

And I wouldnt go spouting off about Cali having the market cornered on weirdos...Florida isnt exactly Einsteinville. :silly:

There's a reason Fark has a Florida tag. There are alot of weird stories that come from there. Too much sun methinks.

[81artmonk]

I think the Califorina "suffers" (RE: Prop 13) line of thinking is something that is completely invented and perpetuated by Sacramento. Even if they had the proceeds of increased property tax from those under Prop 13 they would still find a way to pi** it all away and come back to the taxpayer asking for more.

:applause::applause:

I agree and that is exactly why prop 13 was passed in the first place. To protect the taxpayer and property owner from a state that wanted to raises and raise again in order to gain revenue.

it was voted in to keep govt from continuely dipping into that pot to get revenues. One in which I agree with.

[BigMike619]

1/2 of Tahoe is in NV. None of the other places that you mention would make it on the top 100 ski destinations. I do have a problem with being in the minority in my own country. I could definitely do without motorcycle gangs. My discussion here is with SoCal, I love NorCal, I visit it every other year. ;)

your argument makes no sense at all. So because it doesnt register as top 100 ski destinations it is suddenly inferior to what? Florida?

You have to decide what you have a problem with, so cal or all cal..

[81artmonk]

your argument makes no sense at all. So because it doesnt register as top 100 ski destinations it is suddenly inferior to what? Florida?

You have to decide what you have a problem with, so cal or all cal..

Is it just me or last time I checked Fl doesn't have skiing :)

[BigMike619]

Is it just me or last time I checked Fl doesn't have skiing :)


And how he says "mexicans" when Cubans are just as thick down there I will never know.

Personally I will take a Mexican woman any day...:cheers:

[The Evil Genius]

I think the Califorina "suffers" (RE: Prop 13) line of thinking is something that is completely invented and perpetuated by Sacramento. Even if they had the proceeds of increased property tax from those under Prop 13 they would still find a way to pi** it all away and come back to the taxpayer asking for more.

So the state has radically changed in the past 6 years then? Prop 13's strain on the state was and is, during good times in Silicon Valley, overshadowed. Now that the state isn't flush with money from that area, Prop 13 is the proverbial albatross.

It's not like the state has grown exponentially in the past 5-10 years (when the good times were rolling). If anything, the state has reduced its income via rolling back the car taxes and the public has locked the state into guaranteed spending each year via the ridiculous proposition votes.

[BigMike619]

What is really weird to me is that we started taxing the Indian casinos and that was supposed to make us MILLIONS yet we are more in debt then ever. Why is that?

[deejaydana]

So the state has radically changed in the past 6 years then? Prop 13's strain on the state was and is, during good times in Silicon Valley, overshadowed. Now that the state isn't flush with money from that area, Prop 13 is the proverbial albatross.

The state took in gigantic property taxes over the past 6 years, what happened to all that money? My point is, the government will always find ways to soak the taxpayer and this is just another example. How about address illegal immigration? That is a larger albatross and any taxpayer should find that much more offensive. How about address the unions that are literally bankrupting cities? How about unchecked gov't growth? I could go on and on. Prop 13 is the least of our worries.

[The Evil Genius]

What is really weird to me is that we started taxing the Indian casinos and that was supposed to make us MILLIONS yet we are more in debt then ever. Why is that?

Because capped annual payments of $150-275 million a year do little to dent a multi-billion dollar deficit.

[BigMike619]

Because capped annual payments of $150-275 million a year do little to dent a multi-billion dollar deficit.

But why are we going backwards?

[The Evil Genius]

The state took in gigantic property taxes over the past 6 years, what happened to all that money? My point is, the government will always find ways to soak the taxpayer and this is just another example. How about address illegal immigration? That is a larger albatross and any taxpayer should find that much more offensive.

Property taxes in California aren't very high comparatively (from what I have seen). I know people on the east coast who pay 2-3 thousand more per year on the same price house. Of course, they also pay more sales tax, car registration fees, but less state income tax.

[The Evil Genius]

But why are we going backwards?

Less revenues from other areas, guaranteed spending from props, stagnant tax base, locked in increases in government programs, etc.

[Predicto]

I think the Califorina "suffers" (RE: Prop 13) line of thinking is something that is completely invented and perpetuated by Sacramento. Even if they had the proceeds of increased property tax from those under Prop 13 they would still find a way to pi** it all away and come back to the taxpayer asking for more.

And I think you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, but I don't want to derail this thread.

[BigMike619]

there you are!!

man, i have been holding up the Cali flag all morning waiting for you!!

[Predicto]

:applause::applause:

I agree and that is exactly why prop 13 was passed in the first place. To protect the taxpayer and property owner from a state that wanted to raises and raise again in order to gain revenue.

it was voted in to keep govt from continuely dipping into that pot to get revenues. One in which I agree with.

Prop 13 was a remarkably stupid solution to a genuine problem, and it has destroyed the finances, schools and infrastructure of this state royally.

(I guess I do want to derail this thread :silly: )

[Predicto]

But why are we going backwards?

Because (due to Prop 13) our budget is based almost entirely on revenues from income/capital gains taxes. Those silicon valley millionaires with their stock options financed the state for a long time. But now that the boom is over, that money has dried up. Revenues are down by tens of billions of dollars.

Normal states get a much larger percentage of their money from property taxes. That is a steady stream of revenue that keeps you from the boom and bust cycle.

[Stophovr6]

You guys arguing over which is better, Socal or Florida can stop right now...I have the answer. As someone who has never lived in either but has traveled to both, I can say for sure which is better.







Drum roll please. http://www.stranger-things.net/forum/images/smilies/drumroll.gif







































THEY BOTH SUCK!!!!!!!!!!:silly:

[The Evil Genius]

Because (due to Prop 13) our budget is based almost entirely on revenues from income/capital gains taxes. Those silicon valley millionaires with their stock options financed the state for a long time. But now that the boom is over, that money has dried up. Revenues are down by tens of billions of dollars.

Normal states get a much larger percentage of their money from property taxes. That is a steady stream of revenue that keeps you from the boom and bust cycle.

Which also explains why the state has the highest maximum income tax rate. Its trying to make up some of the lost revenues from Prop 13. ;)

[deejaydana]

But why are we going backwards?

It's a combination of things but at the bottom is a Democratic run government that feels the answer to all ills is more government in your life. We just passed a "no texting" while driving law! Why stop there? Let's address the no eating while driving, no makeup application while driving laws, etc, etc, ad naseum.

We have an illegal immigration problem that THE MAJORITY of people confess is wrong but the minority hijacks the whole process and so the gov't does nothing about it. This costs all taxpayers tremendously but let's ignore it and hope it gets better.

We spend literally millions and all of our attention on the Prop 8/gay marriage issue while we flounder financially and then pass a law for the ethical treatment of poultry (i'm not making this up for people reading this out of state).

The reason Sacramento can operate w/impunity is that people THE WORLD OVER, still beat a path to live in California. They know this and can operate irresponsibly because if you move, there's always 3 people to take your place.

You can moan about Prop 13 but the reasons for California's mismanagement lie (mostly) elsewhere.

We get the government we deserve...

[The Evil Genius]

Well considering Prop 8 was a largely conservative based backing of more government in your life, I would suggest that the above statement isn't as accurate as the poster thought.

;)

[Predicto]

Property taxes in California aren't very high comparatively (from what I have seen). I know people on the east coast who pay 2-3 thousand more per year on the same price house. Of course, they also pay more sales tax, car registration fees, but less state income tax.

Because I have owned my house for 15 years, I pay less than 5 thousand dollars in property taxes on a house that would sell for at least 1.2 million. The guy across the street pays less than 3 thousand.

What would I be paying in New Jersey, or Maryland, or Colorado, on a 1.2 million dollar house?

Now consider that the same thing applies to commercial property. Macys pays less than 1/3 of the property tax of Nordstroms right next door.

It's so stupid it's almost impossible to explain.

[DeanCollins]

your argument makes no sense at all. So because it doesnt register as top 100 ski destinations it is suddenly inferior to what? Florida?

You have to decide what you have a problem with, so cal or all cal..

You missed my point. If You had the money, skill, and desire to go skiing, it would take you longer to drive to a quality ski resort that It would take me to fly (and probably cost you more). And we have plenty of skiing here. ;)

http://www.waterski-wakeboard.ca/images1/ws_intro_slalom.jpg

[The Evil Genius]

Because I have owned my house for 15 years, I pay less than 5 thousand dollars in property taxes on a house that would sell for at least 1.2 million. The guy across the street pays less than 3 thousand.

What would I be paying in New Jersey, or Maryland, or Colorado, on a 1.2 million dollar house?

Now consider that the same thing applies to commercial property. Macys pays less than 1/3 of the property tax of Nordstroms right next door.

It's so stupid it's almost impossible to explain.

Oh I and I was talking about a house that I have owned for less than 5 years. My inlaws own a house in SF area that is worth $800,000 now. They bought it for 32,000 in 1969. They pay property taxes on an amount close to that purchase price.

Fun huh?

[DeanCollins]

You guys arguing over which is better, Socal or Florida can stop right now...I have the answer. As someone who has never lived in either but has traveled to both, I can say for sure which is better Drum roll please. http://www.stranger-things.net/forum/images/smilies/drumroll.gif THEY BOTH SUCK!!!!!!!!!!:silly:

"Suck" is the eye of the beholder, and sometimes the mouth. :laugh:

[BigMike619]

You missed my point. If You had the money, skill, and desire to go skiing, it would take you longer to drive to a quality ski resort that It would take me to fly (and probably cost you more). And we have plenty of skiing here. ;)



how much do you think it costs me to drive to Tahoe or Shasta?

I mean I am at the VERY bottom of Cali. Just how much do you think it would cost to fill up a V-6 and drive to Shasta?

your water skiing is available in Shasta as well. But the difference with Shasta is...when youre done WATER skiing you can go SNOW skiing without any wait. ;)

[Predicto]

Many years ago, we had a thread where I went off, ripping on Florida and on West Florida in particular. I was so rude that I ended up apologizing to Dean Collins. I don't want to repeat my behavior here.

Let's just say I'm not a fan. Maybe I will when I'm 70 :)

And while we are at it, I don't get all the love for Colorado that I am seeing in this thread. I admit that I have never lived there, but I've been there a few times. Denver is the dullest large city I have ever visited. Horrible sprawl for a city of its population, no neighborhoods any different from any other, gated communites and tract houses, Bennigans and Applebees and TGIFridays oh my!, terrible air pollution most of the year, no downtown things of any interest (ooh its the Brown Hotel!).

Other than the nearby mountains, I just don't get the appeal.

[The Evil Genius]

Other than the nearby mountains, I just don't get the appeal.

Denver has a huge single young population.

[DeanCollins]

how much do you think it costs me to drive to Tahoe or Shasta?

I mean I am at the VERY bottom of Cali. Just how much do you think it would cost to fill up a V-6 and drive to Shasta?


lets' go with Tahoe, roundtrip according to mapquest is 1070 miles and aprox. 18 hours of driving (Sure, that's doable on a weekend lol)

Estimated Time: 8 hours 53 minutes Estimated Distance: 535.32 miles (one way mapquest)

Using November's gas prices about $220, which was more than I paid for my last plane ticket to Denver :D

[BigMike619]

lets' go with Tahoe, roundtrip according to mapquest is 1070 miles and aprox. 18 hours of driving (Sure, that's doable on a weekend lol)

Estimated Time: 8 hours 53 minutes Estimated Distance: 535.32 miles (one way mapquest)

Using November's gas prices about $220, which was more than I paid for my last plane ticket to Denver :D
gas is a lot lower then it was in November dude..you know that right?

18 hours of driving? man what are you talking about? It took me 15 to drive from SD to Portland. You must not know the 5 and 80 freeways.

you think you are going to fly from FL to Tahoe in one weekend and ski?

[deejaydana]

Well considering Prop 8 was a largely conservative based backing of more government in your life, I would suggest that the above statement isn't as accurate as the poster thought.

;)

My gripe is the attention paid to it in the media and in general when it really should have little to no bearing on your life. Who cares if it came from the left or the right? My point is we have larger issues we should be caring about from a $$$ standpoint.

[DeanCollins]

gas is a lot lower then it was in November dude..you know that right?

18 hours of driving? man what are you talking about? It took me 15 to drive from SD to Portland. You must not know the 5 and 80 freeways.

you think you are going to fly from FL to Tahoe in one weekend and ski?

Gas is cheaper this month. I lived in the Balboa park area, Georgia street, in the winter of '80. I've also driven all the Pacific coastal highways (and most of the interstates) from Cabo San Lucas to Southern Washington State. In a couple more years that will extend hopefully to Alaska. I'm only lacking Maine, Canada on the East Coast. I'm a driving fool :silly: :D

I could see skiing in Denver over a 3 day weekend. It's a 2.5 hour nonstop flight from Tampa to Denver. ;) With the time differential I can be at the ski lifts at 10:30am (or ealier) with a 6am departure from Tampa. :)

[Predicto]

lets' go with Tahoe, roundtrip according to mapquest is 1070 miles and aprox. 18 hours of driving (Sure, that's doable on a weekend lol)

Estimated Time: 8 hours 53 minutes Estimated Distance: 535.32 miles (one way mapquest)

Using November's gas prices about $220, which was more than I paid for my last plane ticket to Denver :D

Once you get to Denver, you are in ... Denver. Vail is a distance away still.

I can get to Tahoe in 3.5 hours. 3 hours if I want to go to Sugarbowl.

And Yosemite in 3 hours.

And Monterey/Carmel/Big Sur in 1.5 hours.

Santa Cruz in 1 hour.

And Napa/Sonoma Wine Country in 45 mins.

Sausalito and the Marin Headlands in 20 mins.

And several beaches in 10 minutes.

Plus, this 49 square miles of city has more interesting food, culture, theatre, and events than most states.

Nya nya nya :laugh:

[Predicto]

My gripe is the attention paid to it in the media and in general when it really should have little to no bearing on your life. Who cares if it came from the left or the right? My point is we have larger issues we should be caring about from a $$$ standpoint.

Gay marriage has a real bearing on a lot of gay peoples' lives.

You are correct that the jerks who put Prop 8 on the ballot and the busybodies that voted for it were complaining about something that had absolutely no bearing on their own lives. :)

[BigMike619]

Gas is cheaper this month. I lived in the Balboa park area, Georgia street, in the winter of '80. I've also driven all the Pacific coastal highways (and most of the interstates) from Cabo San Lucas to Southern Washington State. In a couple more years that will extend hopefully to Alaska. I'm only lacking Maine, Canada on the East Coast. I'm a driving fool :silly: :D

I could see skiing in Denver over a 3 day weekend. It's a 2.5 hour nonstop flight from Tampa to Denver. ;) With the time differential I can be at the ski lifts at 10:30am (or ealier) with a 6am departure from Tampa. :)

down here we use Big Bear. Tahoe is a trip for sure...but its still Cali and still better then Florida :silly:

and I wouldnt say you were a driving fool..id never say driving ;)

[DeanCollins]

Predicto, I'm beating up on the Socalers lol. Northern Ca. should apply for their own statehood, draw the line from Big Sir to Kings Canyon. ;)

It's only 1.25 hours from Denver to Breckenridge

[DeanCollins]

down here we use Big Bear. Tahoe is a trip for sure...but its still Cali and still better then Florida :silly:

and I wouldnt say you were a driving fool..id never say driving ;)

we'll settle on "well traveled fool" ;)

[Predicto]

Predicto, I'm beating up on the Socalers lol. Northern Ca. should apply for their own statehood, draw the line from Big Sir to Kings Canyon. ;)

It's only 1.25 hours from Denver to Breckenridge

LOL. It's 1.25 hours from the Denver Airport to Denver.

[deejaydana]

Gay marriage has a real bearing on a lot of gay peoples' lives.

You are correct that the jerks who put Prop 8 on the ballot and the busybodies that voted for it were complaining about something that had absolutely no bearing on their own lives. :)

Yes, maybe that came off that I was putting down gays which was certainly not what I meant. I just feel that Proposition was given an almost unjust amount of coverage which is no surprise because it will probably always be a hot-button, divisive topic. It just took attention away, unduly, from the fiscal disaster that is California.

[BayouBrave86]

I want to move to the pacific northwest once I get into the real world. How is cost of living out that way?

[BigMike619]

Predicto, I'm beating up on the Socalers lol. Northern Ca. should apply for their own statehood, draw the line from Big Sir to Kings Canyon. ;)

It's only 1.25 hours from Denver to Breckenridge

you cant dog on SoCal when you are a FL FOOL!!

the 2 go together like PB&J. who is your neighbor, Georgia and South Carolina? :doh:

[deejaydana]

I want to move to Northern Cali, Oregon, or Washington once I get into the real world. How is cost of living out that way?

It's surprisingly high in all those areas, more so (of course) if you're near the coast. Oregon doesn't have a sales tax at least.

[BigMike619]

I want to move to the pacific northwest once I get into the real world. How is cost of living out that way?

depends on where you live. if you live in Oregon it is going to be considerably cheaper then living in the bay area of California.

[BayouBrave86]

Is Portland fairly expensive?

[BigMike619]

Is Portland fairly expensive?

it depends on what you call expensive honestly.

what is the cost of living in baton rogue?

[BayouBrave86]

Very, very cheap. I went to school in Richmond, Va though before going off to college at LSU.

[BayouBrave86]

Cost of living is very cheap for a reason too, Baton Rouge is a terrible city. LSU is the only thing of worth in this city. Terrible weather and terrible traffic. Words can't express how frustrating this place is haha. Baton Rouge belongs in Ohio. :)

[BigMike619]

I live in a 3 bdrm 2 bath house with 2 living rooms, a garage, back yard and front and pay 1800. thats about the norm for a mediocre neighborhood.

[Predicto]

I want to move to the pacific northwest once I get into the real world. How is cost of living out that way?

Pretty hig, but not as high as Cali.

Seattle is a pretty damn nice city, but it really is rainy and overcast. A LOT.

[Predicto]

you cant dog on SoCal when you are a FL FOOL!!

the 2 go together like PB&J. who is your neighbor, Georgia and South Carolina? :doh:

Yeah! :cheers:

Only NorCal can rip on our brother, SoCal, and vice versa. Either one is infinitely better than "God's Humid Waiting Room."

:poke:

[BigMike619]

Yeah! :cheers:

Only NorCal can rip on our brother, SoCal, and vice versa. Either one is infinitely better than "God's Humid Waiting Room."

:poke:

and one is where God goes when he wants to NOT smell pachuli and pine nuts. :silly:

[DeanCollins]

LOL. It's 1.25 hours from the Denver Airport to Denver.

here's the mapquest results for DIA to Breckenridge

Estimated Time: 2 hours 1 minute Estimated Distance: 105.70 miles

It's all interstate, 80mph x 1.25 = 100.

been awhile since you've been there? one things for sure, the only two places that you like are CA and Barbados ;)

[DeanCollins]

you cant dog on SoCal when you are a FL FOOL!!

the 2 go together like PB&J. who is your neighbor, Georgia and South Carolina? :doh:

you forgot the great state of Alabama :D

So now you're dissing GA and SC as well? Paging Gaskins and SCskinsfan

[DeanCollins]

I live in a 3 bdrm 2 bath house with 2 living rooms, a garage, back yard and front and pay 1800. thats about the norm for a mediocre neighborhood.

yeah but how many other mexicans do you share the house with? :laugh:

[BigMike619]

yeah but how many other mexicans do you share the house with? :laugh:

Is there an underlying issue with Mexicans I am missing?

and 0

I share it with an irishman and a Samoan girl. :silly:

[DeanCollins]

Is there an underlying issue with Mexicans I am missing?

:silly:


If I dress up in a cheap cop style uniform I can get hot illegal latin women to sleep with me.

ok, so your girlfriend is "latin". Of course I don't have problems with women. ;)

[BigMike619]

ok, so your girlfriend is "latin". Of course I don't have problems with women. ;)

my son is also part mexican

and I love all women, not just the latin/hispanic ones.

[BigMike619]

ok, well Im 35, went to school and I'm not looking to have surgery.

should i just pack up now and move to Fargo?

[DeanCollins]

my son is also part mexican

and I love all women, not just the latin/hispanic ones.

How old is your son?

To be honest, I travel to Mexico more than any other place, because I like their laid back culture. I never felt bothered or resented.

I've also worked with 100's of central americans in the construction industry and their work ethic is pretty strong (communication skills not withstanding).

I think that they get a bad rap because they are here, not because they come from there. I just like to tease people in the SW about it because I know that it is a problem for logistics , employment, schools, health care and other governmental issues. Florida does have a fair share, not to mention a growing Cuban contingency, but St. Pete really doesn't have many of either because there is not construction work or agricultural jobs to support them, hence they haven't been drawn here. We do, however, have a good sized, low income, african american popluation here, that unfortunately is a product of the multigenerational welfare system. And to be honest I'd trade for the central americans because they seem to like to work more.

[Elessar78]

I like the idea of living in California (San Diego and Nor Cal specificallly) but I think once you get past the "appearances" maybe CA is only a good place to live if you've got REAL money.

[BigMike619]

my boy is 13 and a full on teenager!! grr!!

elessar..thats not entirely true. If you can make it in the DC area you can make it out here in SD.

[The Evil Genius]

my boy is 13 and a full on teenager!! grr!!

elessar..thats not entirely true. If you can make it in the DC area you can make it out here in SD.

Most of California (including parts of the SF/SJ Bay area) is the same or cheaper than DC or Chicago or any other major city.

[BigMike619]

Most of California (including parts of the SF/SJ Bay area) is the same or cheaper than DC or Chicago or any other major city.

my friend wants to move to an apt in NW and she said she was going to pay around 1800..WOW!!

[Sebowski]

Sure. I cant go out to dinner in Feb and March because of Snowbirds. Other than that.........

Im not putting down CA at all. Im just pointing out that its arrogant as hell to think CA has no rivals. SW FLA as I said is precicely what SoCal was 3 decades ago. Sleepy beach towns and all that.

Not quite "precisely". I lived in a couple different parts of FL for a combined 11 years. I will never move back. FL has rain, hurricanes, mosquitoes, and the traffic is worse than it is in SD. SD you only hit traffic at specific rush hour spots. FL there is traffic everywhere all the time.

We also have a couple MLS teams, Kilmer. :silly:

And what's with all the racism in this thread? If the Mexicans and "gays" are driving out the bigots than I am going to start smuggling them in myself.

[MissU28]

my friend wants to move to an apt in NW and she said she was going to pay around 1800..WOW!!


Our apartment in Oceanside is $1600...2br, 2 baths. Not that big.

[MissU28]

I live in a 3 bdrm 2 bath house with 2 living rooms, a garage, back yard and front and pay 1800. thats about the norm for a mediocre neighborhood.


My brother lives on the other side of the freeway from SDSU and pays $3000 a month for his mortgage. 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. His house was $600K in 2006 when they bought it.

[Special K]

do you mean northern CA? I wouldn't move back to DC either, but I think the majority moved back because of friends and family. My parents are up in Northern Cal near the Sierras which is beautiful. My aunts and uncles are down here in Pasadena and Yucaipa.

I can see moving back to the DC area for friends and family though...although I'd still want to live far outside the city.



lets be real here, you hate SoCal because you are an outdoors and mountain type girl. Not because of anything SoCal has done. There is just as much to do down here as there is up there but you just prefer it up in NO Cal. :silly:
No, I hate SoCal (okay, minus San Diego which is about the only bright spot in this part of the state IMO) for the following reasons:
1. the insane traffic
2. the smog
3. the crowds
4. the general attitude on the social scene where half the people think they are celebrities in the making (minus Winstons of course :D )
5. the crime
6. the heat
7. the Santa Ana winds
8. the fact that I have to drive 4 hours to get to a good ski resort like Mammoth
9. the burden the high influx of illegal immigration has placed on our health care system
10. the fact that I have to speak Spanish to communicate with the majority of the public health patients I've had to work with (I'm not trying to be callous and I understand people coming here wanting a better life and the American dream...but SERIOUSLY, please attempt to learn our language if you've been in this country more than 6 months)
11. the gangs
12. The high cost of living
13. did I mention the traffic?

Granted, many of these factors are present in any large city, but there are several that are listed that are specific to SoCal which I simply do not like. It's not all bad of course, the sunsets are pretty on low-smog days, there's some great shopping, the palm trees are pretty, and In-N-Out rocks...but the traffic and overcrowding at even the grocery store combined with the insane heat here in the inland portion really, really, really piss me off and put me in a bad mood.

You are correct though that I'm much more of a small-town, outdoorsy type so the stuff that irks me down here is more amplified by that characteristic.

[BigMike619]

Our apartment in Oceanside is $1600...2br, 2 baths. Not that big.


first off, Oside is NOT San Diego. It is a military hole and they jack up the prices. 1600 is going to get you a 2 bedroom at the beach down here.



My brother lives on the other side of the freeway from SDSU and pays $3000 a month for his mortgage. 2 bedrooms, 2 bathrooms. His house was $600K in 2006 when they bought it.

is that before or after the prices started going down?


and Katie, you dead right there sista. but I love SD for all its worth.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

Ahh so pointing out the facts about unchecked illegal immigration and gangs like MS13,14, 15, XYZ is a racial thing?

Wait we were talking about illegals and gangs? I just saw Mexicans. But hey, what's the difference right? I'm totally with 81artmonk on that. I can't stand anyone from S.A.

[DeanCollins]

No, I hate SoCal (okay, minus San Diego which is about the only bright spot in this part of the state IMO) for the following reasons:
1. the insane traffic
2. the smog
3. the crowds
4. the general attitude on the social scene where half the people think they are celebrities in the making (minus Winstons of course :D )
5. the crime
6. the heat
7. the Santa Ana winds
8. the fact that I have to drive 4 hours to get to a good ski resort like Mammoth
9. the burden the high influx of illegal immigration has placed on our health care system
10. the fact that I have to speak Spanish to communicate with the majority of the public health patients I've had to work with (I'm not trying to be callous and I understand people coming here wanting a better life and the American dream...but SERIOUSLY, please attempt to learn our language if you've been in this country more than 6 months)
11. the gangs
12. The high cost of living
13. did I mention the traffic?

Granted, many of these factors are present in any large city, but there are several that are listed that are specific to SoCal which I simply do not like. It's not all bad of course, the sunsets are pretty on low-smog days, there's some great shopping, the palm trees are pretty, and In-N-Out rocks...but the traffic and overcrowding at even the grocery store combined with the insane heat here in the inland portion really, really, really piss me off and put me in a bad mood.



but but but, living in SoCal is waaay Cool. And just living there makes you cool too, like an instant Fonz or James Dean, even if you're originally from bum**** MD. :D

[BigMike619]

Wait we were talking about illegals and gangs? I just saw Mexicans. But hey, what's the difference right? I'm totally with 81artmonk on that. I can't stand anyone from S.A.

youre going to get someone in trouble if you keep ****ing with them like that. ;)


but but but, living in SoCal is waaay Cool. And just living there makes you cool too, like an instant Fonz or James Dean, even if you're originally from bum**** MD. :D

whos from bum**** MD? I know you cant be talking about me that way. And youre SO bitter against SoCal. Did USC stomp your favorite team recently or Pete Carroll steal your lunch money?

[BigMike619]

No, I hate SoCal (okay, minus San Diego which is about the only bright spot in this part of the state IMO) for the following reasons:
1. the insane traffic - beltway
2. the smog - DC smog cant compare with LA but it does with any other part
3. the crowds - DC is just as crowded and the streets are more narrow
4. the general attitude on the social scene where half the people think they are celebrities in the making (minus Winstons of course :D ) - lol
5. the crime - DC not having horrible crime?
6. the heat - humidity, what?
7. the Santa Ana winds - better then humidity :2cents:
8. the fact that I have to drive 4 hours to get to a good ski resort like Mammoth - is there any place to ski in the DMV?
9. the burden the high influx of illegal immigration has placed on our health care system - yeah..that sucks
10. the fact that I have to speak Spanish to communicate with the majority of the public health patients I've had to work with (I'm not trying to be callous and I understand people coming here wanting a better life and the American dream...but SERIOUSLY, please attempt to learn our language if you've been in this country more than 6 months) - see above
11. the gangs - even Salt Lake City has crips now.
12. The high cost of living - DC is horrible
13. did I mention the traffic? -buh buh buh beltway

You are correct though that I'm much more of a small-town, outdoorsy type so the stuff that irks me down here is more amplified by that characteristic.

knowing you for more then half a minute I figured you for the outdoorsy type. :cheers:

[DeanCollins]

whos from bum**** MD? I know you cant be talking about me that way. And youre SO bitter against SoCal. Did USC stomp your favorite team recently or Pete Carroll steal your lunch money?

No I just despise groups that claim exclusivity. It gets old after awhile. No State or city is perfect, there are always pros and cons, good seasons and off seasons. That's why I'm preparing to spend my summers in the Blue ridge and winters here, and vacation like a mf'er. Looks like my last friend in SoCal (Redondo beach) can't find a job in DC and will be staying for awhile so I'll be out to see him sometime this year. I'll hunt you down. :cheers:

[BigMike619]

No I just despise groups that claim exclusivity. It gets old after awhile. No State or city is perfect, there are always pros and cons, good seasons and off seasons. That's why I'm preparing to spend my summers in the Blue ridge and winters here, and vacation like a mf'er. Looks like my last friend in SoCal (Redondo beach) can't find a job in DC and will be staying for awhile so I'll be out to see him sometime this year. I'll hunt you down. :cheers:
CA is the number 5 economy in the world...;)

hunt me down all you want bro, I will have beer waiting. :cheers:

[Sebowski]

My parents are up in Northern Cal near the Sierras which is beautiful. My aunts and uncles are down here in Pasadena and Yucaipa.

I can see moving back to the DC area for friends and family though...although I'd still want to live far outside the city.



No, I hate SoCal (okay, minus San Diego which is about the only bright spot in this part of the state IMO) for the following reasons:
1. the insane traffic
2. the smog
3. the crowds
4. the general attitude on the social scene where half the people think they are celebrities in the making (minus Winstons of course :D )
5. the crime
6. the heat
7. the Santa Ana winds
8. the fact that I have to drive 4 hours to get to a good ski resort like Mammoth
9. the burden the high influx of illegal immigration has placed on our health care system
10. the fact that I have to speak Spanish to communicate with the majority of the public health patients I've had to work with (I'm not trying to be callous and I understand people coming here wanting a better life and the American dream...but SERIOUSLY, please attempt to learn our language if you've been in this country more than 6 months)
11. the gangs
12. The high cost of living
13. did I mention the traffic?

Granted, many of these factors are present in any large city, but there are several that are listed that are specific to SoCal which I simply do not like. It's not all bad of course, the sunsets are pretty on low-smog days, there's some great shopping, the palm trees are pretty, and In-N-Out rocks...but the traffic and overcrowding at even the grocery store combined with the insane heat here in the inland portion really, really, really piss me off and put me in a bad mood.

You are correct though that I'm much more of a small-town, outdoorsy type so the stuff that irks me down here is more amplified by that characteristic.

I don't really see any of that in San Diego. Maybe you(and everyone else just hates greater LA.

Anywho, I'm off to walk to the beach.

BTW, I split a 2/1 with my girlfriend a block and a half from the water for $1400. In a sleepy beach town, no less. On,ly drive to go to work 4 miles away.

[BigMike619]

I don't really see any of that in San Diego. Maybe you(and everyone else just hates greater LA.

Anywho, I'm off to walk to the beach.

BTW, I split a 2/1 with my girlfriend a block and a half from the water for $1400. In a sleepy beach town, no less. On,ly drive to go to work 4 miles away.

Oh, she LOVES OB dude.

[Special K]

and Katie, you dead right there sista. but I love SD for all its worth.
Well, while there are a lot of beautiful places across this country, you certainly have the right to be proud of SD. I've never lived there, but I have friends down there who love it and will never leave and everytime I've visited I've had a lot of fun. Honestly, I think SD is about the only big city in SoCal I don't hate, in fact, I actually like it.

But being raised in Northern Cali I just have the mountains in my blood. I'd prefer to houseboat on Lake Shasta than hit the beach...sit around a campfire while backpacking in the mountains than sitting around a bonfire on the beach. Just my preference...which is why I just don't mix well down here and will be packing up the second I graduate.

Another thing I dislike down here (but I know is present in a lot of large cities) is the general attitude about material posessions that is pervasive throughout this whole region. Again, I know this attitude can be found in most large cities, but seriously, materialism is taken up a notch in this entire region of SoCal. It's all about the cars someone drives or the designer label someone's wearing or how big of ring they have. Granted, I like to shop like most chicks and have nice things, but it's reached insane proportions down here. I have coworkers who have literally carried on a conversation with one another for nearly an hour about the friggin shoes they are wearing. I've never experienced anything like it in any other large city I've lived in. It's hard to describe the difference really, but it's just the whole overall attitude and I really dislike that.

[Special K]

I don't really see any of that in San Diego. Maybe you(and everyone else just hates greater LA. You know, since I've never lived down in SD, I can't say you're wrong. Also, all the high school friends I grew up with in our small town who have now lived in SD for almost a decade now absolutely love it, so you probably are right.

Although I know for a fact that the health care system down that way (as well as many other cities in bordering states) has been detrimentally impacted by the insane levels of illegal immigration.

[BigMike619]

dont say mt shasta around dean collins..he will tell you that its not even on the top 100 ski destinations...

youve nailed SoCal but you have also nailed most places.

youre just a small town girl
living in a lonely world
you took the midnight train...

[DeanCollins]

dont say mt shasta around dean collins..he will tell you that its not even on the top 100 ski destinations...




Let's have a look see. Looks like Breck is Ten times the size in skiable acres, 3 times vertical drop, and 10 times as many lifts. I'd rate shasta right up there with some PA ski resorts. ;)

Mt. Shasta

http://www.skipark.com/images/Mtn%20Stats%20001.jpg

425 acres of skiable terrain
1,390 vertical feet
32 trails
3 triple chairs, 1 rope tow lift, 1 conveyor lift
Night skiing on 14 trails and 3 lifts
20% beginner, 55% intermediate, 25% advanced
275 inches of annual snowfall
Longest run: 1.75 miles
Super Halfpipe: 300 ft long
Beginner terrain park
Intermediate and advanced terrain park




Breckenridge
Mountain Stats
Base Elevation: 9,600 feet / 2,926 meters
Summit Elevation: 12,998 feet / 3,963 meters
Vertical Rise: 3,398 feet / 1,036 meters
Lifts: 30


30 total
2 high-speed 6-passenger SuperChairs
7 high-speed quad lifts




1 triple lift
6 double lifts
1 8-passenger gondola
4 surface lifts
9 carpet lifts

Lift Capacity: 37,880 people per hour
Operating Since: December 16, 1961
Total Ski/Ride Terrain: 2358 acres / 954 hectares

Longest Trail: Four O'Clock - 3.5 miles / 5.6 kilometers



Here's some pics of our townhouse and views from the decks at el. 10,800' :D

http://rockridgeresort.com/images/600_Winter_View_2.jpg
http://rockridgeresort.com/images/600_Peak_9_From_Deck.jpg
http://rockridgeresort.com/images/600_Peak_10_From_Deck.jpg

[Special K]

Noooooooo don't be dissing on Shasta darnit! It might be small, but it's inexpensive, the snow's usually really good, and it's only a 30 min. drive from where I grew up. I learned how to ski on that mountain and have spent many years since skiing there.

That being said, you have a very nice place DC, I'm totally jealous! It's these types of ski resorts I most look forward to when I move to Colorado in the fall.... although I've heard places like Breck, Vail, Aspen, etc. are all pretty crowded, have you observed that to be true?

If I ever make enough money to buy a ski home, I'm buying in the Big Sky area in Montana. That place is gorgeous and you are literally the only one on the slopes...I love not having to worry about some inexperienced or reckless moron losing control and plowing into me, something that's happened to me on more than one occasion at Big Bear.

[DeanCollins]

Not dissing, just having fun. I've skied a lot of smaller resorts and it's all good. Went to Big Sky 5 years ago.
If there's any crowds, they're usually at the bottom lifts. Besides Copper mountain, A-Basin, Keystone, and Loveland ski resorts in all 5 miles away, then Vail/Beaver creek/Bachelor's gulch are 20 minutes away.

[Predicto]

Is this where I'm supposed to post pictures of Squaw Valley, Heavenly or Mammoth Mountain (since all of them are larger than Breckenridge)? :silly:


actually Heavenly may be huge, but it totally sucks (IMO). But we also have Alpine Meadows, Kirkwood, Northstar and many others.

And when you are done skiing at Tahoe, you get to gamble the night away! :laugh:

[MissU28]

Katie is right about a lot of the things in SoCal...especially the people. A lot of the people I have met are not as genuine as the people I knew in Virginia. There is something off-putting about them. Last year I worked at a school with a man who had moved here years and years and years ago from Virginia Beach...and even he made that comment to me- that the people here aren't the same. They're just not.

There are lots of things I love about living in San Diego (COUNTY, okay, mike?)... I love being able to take the train (coaster) down to Padres games. I love the gaslamp quarter. I love PB and OB and being near the beach.

I don't love how it's sunny all the time. I don't love how it gets down to 50s at its coldest. I don't love the Santa Anas...which make it grossly hot and make my eyes itch and my throat itch and me sneeze. I don't love the entitlement many of the SoCalians I have come across have. I don't love the schools being outdoors. I don't love how kids out here hardly get ANY of the arts in school.

San Francisco? I really like it. It's much more "east coast" up there. I don't like how it's so touristy, though. The people up there aren't the friendliest, either. I wish we had the weather from NoCal down here.

[DeanCollins]

Is this where I'm supposed to post pictures of Squaw Valley, Heavenly or Mammoth Mountain (since all of them are larger than Breckenridge)? :silly:


actually Heavenly may be huge, but it totally sucks (IMO). But we also have Alpine Meadows, Kirkwood, Northstar and many others.

And when you are done skiing at Tahoe, you get to gamble the night away! :laugh:
You should get a place up there and then invite me over. :D
Heavenly used to be two different resorts that they combined (NV side and CA side) Its dificult to get from one to the other. Most of the resorts on the lake are like that. Squaw is awesome but hard to get around Northstar is pretty flat more of a beginners place. Alpine Meadows is fun. Great views of the lake. I skied at Kirkwood for the first time on my last trip there, very cool on top with the large craggy rocks and the chutes between them. . Predicto, you'll have to put a few of those together to equal Breck though :D And with Vail right down the street, no comparison.
I love Tahoe, skied there 8 times. The last 2 times I stayed at Kings Beach, and Incline Village. You're lucky that you can pick and choose when to go because of the low elevation that place is notorious for soggy conditions. Two years ago I went there in late February and they had just gotten 2 feet of snow and the resort told us that they'd been closed for weeks with no snow. That never happens in CO.

[BigMike619]

Robin, I get that you think the west coast people arent as genuine as east coast people but that is actually opposite of how I feel. I feel that a lot of those uppity southern folks feel like they are entitled to something...I even had a woman once try to slap me when we were arguing. Slap me!

I hate the Santa Ana's too but I hate humidity even more.

any of you remember Air quality index meter? yeah, I havent seen that in FOREVER!! and I also dont like wind chill factor.

[brandymac27]

Another thing I dislike down here (but I know is present in a lot of large cities) is the general attitude about material posessions that is pervasive throughout this whole region. Again, I know this attitude can be found in most large cities, but seriously, materialism is taken up a notch in this entire region of SoCal. It's all about the cars someone drives or the designer label someone's wearing or how big of ring they have. Granted, I like to shop like most chicks and have nice things, but it's reached insane proportions down here. I have coworkers who have literally carried on a conversation with one another for nearly an hour about the friggin shoes they are wearing. I've never experienced anything like it in any other large city I've lived in. It's hard to describe the difference really, but it's just the whole overall attitude and I really dislike that.

Is it like that all over Cali or just metro areas like LA? I can definitely see people in LA being like that just b/c of the "Hollywood" factor.

I lived in NYC for 2 years while I was in H.S. and my Aunt (who I lived with while going to school) was filthy stinking rich. She had a lot of very rich friends too, but I don't remember any of them acting "uppity" or that concerned about material stuff. As a matter of fact, by looking at their apartments or cars or clothes, you'd have never guessed that some of them had that kind of money. I guess it all depends on the person and how you were brought up. Some people care more about money and material things than others.

But, as I mentioned, I can see how some people who live there are more concerned with what pair of shoes they own than other, more important things.


Robin, I get that you think the west coast people arent as genuine as east coast people but that is actually opposite of how I feel. I feel that a lot of those uppity southern folks feel like they are entitled to something...I even had a woman once try to slap me when we were arguing. Slap me!



I agree with you. I think uppity southerners are the worst. Especially women. They walk around with their noses sticking straight up in the air like their crap don't stink!

[81artmonk]

Prop 13 was a remarkably stupid solution to a genuine problem, and it has destroyed the finances, schools and infrastructure of this state royally.

(I guess I do want to derail this thread :silly: )

sorry but that is just a bunch of hoowy!!

[81artmonk]

Because I have owned my house for 15 years, I pay less than 5 thousand dollars in property taxes on a house that would sell for at least 1.2 million. The guy across the street pays less than 3 thousand.

What would I be paying in New Jersey, or Maryland, or Colorado, on a 1.2 million dollar house?

Now consider that the same thing applies to commercial property. Macys pays less than 1/3 of the property tax of Nordstroms right next door.

It's so stupid it's almost impossible to explain.

I can't believe that you are acually trying to explain how our govt isn't taxing us enough therefore that is why we are in this mess. Prop 13 is by far the least of our problems. I can say with great certianty that even had prop 13 not been enacted, our state would still be in this mess today.

So prop 13 is in fact a very mute point.

[TheLongshot]

As a person who was a left coaster for the first 10 years of my life, I'd love to go back to live, but it just doesn't make sense with how much it costs. In some ways, I've gotten used to living on the east coast with all the benefits, including real public transport. I do miss the universally warm weather, low humidity and yes, the Santa Anas.

I have a friend of mine who is in Cali who went there so that her husband could chase his dream. Course, he's soon to be without a job and they may eventually head back to the east coast. I had another friend who moved out there to work for Disney and was screwed pretty hard until at the 11th hour he got another position at WDW.

[Special K]

Is this where I'm supposed to post pictures of Squaw Valley, Heavenly or Mammoth Mountain (since all of them are larger than Breckenridge)? :silly:
My friends and I rented a house in Mammoth for this weekend, woohoo! I love that place.



Is it like that all over Cali or just metro areas like LA? I can definitely see people in LA being like that just b/c of the "Hollywood" factor.
No, it's not like that all over Cali in my opinion, but of course I'm biased toward the northern part. But I think it's waaaay more prominent here in the southern parts simply because this area is chalk full of wanna-be celebs and people who are focused on their "beach bodies," blah, blah, blah.

Of course not everyone's that way, but it's certainly more prominent here than say S.F. or Sac or more northern parts of CA. More often than not I've found people to be different down here than anywhere else I've lived in the U.S. I really don't go out anymore, well, because I get the hell out of here for the weekends usually now, but seriously, there are only so many gelled-mohawk-sporting-sunglass-wearing-in-a-dark-club people I can deal with if I go out...annoys me in Vegas clubs also, as well as South Beach...just annoys me in general, but I notice it more down here.

But like I've said, there are a lot of good things and a lot to like down here as well, especially if you're a year-around beach and/or warm/hot weather type of person (I prefer seasons). But overall, it's just not my scene. :)

[deejaydana]

I can't believe that you are acually trying to explain how our govt isn't taxing us enough therefore that is why we are in this mess. Prop 13 is by far the least of our problems. I can say with great certianty that even had prop 13 not been enacted, our state would still be in this mess today.

So prop 13 is in fact a very mute point.

The only people who bemoan Prop 13 fall neatly into two categories:

1) shameless Sacramento politicians who are seeking more taxpayer money to waste
2) easily manipulated folk who feel that their neighbor, who is under Prop 13 rules, shouldn't get a better deal than they because they themselves aren't blessed with lower property taxes (i.e., they came late to the party).

[The Evil Genius]

No one wants to pay taxes and yet everyone wants to ***** about the level of service they get from state government, from the DMV lines, to the lack of border security (although thats more federal than state), to the potholes on the freeway.

Can't have it both ways.

;)

[GibbsFactor]

No one wants to pay taxes and yet everyone wants to ***** about the level of service they get from state government, from the DMV lines, to the lack of border security (although thats more federal than state), to the potholes on the freeway.

Can't have it both ways.

;)

Here's where you are wrong.

We can have it both ways. The government doesn't need our money, as evidenced by our 1.2 tril deficit. They don't worry about it cause they can always just print the money.

So... Why charge us taxes? Just pay those working for the government in printed money.

Yes, we can have our cake and eat it too.

[The Evil Genius]

Here's where you are wrong.

We can have it both ways. The government doesn't need our money, as evidenced by our 1.2 tril deficit. They don't worry about it cause they can always just print the money.

So... Why charge us taxes? Just pay those working for the government in printed money.

Yes, we can have our cake and eat it too.

Ca State government cannot operate with a deficit. It does need the money or services will be (and are starting to be) cut.

[Predicto]

I can't believe that you are acually trying to explain how our govt isn't taxing us enough therefore that is why we are in this mess. Prop 13 is by far the least of our problems. I can say with great certianty that even had prop 13 not been enacted, our state would still be in this mess today.

So prop 13 is in fact a very mute point.

Why can you say this with "great certainty?" You have not demonstrated anything to the contrary at all. You haven't even tried. The only thing you ever demonstrate is that you can parrot conservative talking points.

Here's a basic fact - tell me what you think of it:

Despite our higher cost of living, California spends $7571 per pupil each year. New York and New Jersey spend over 13,000 per pupil.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/14/MNS4159KA4.DTL&o=2

You try to tell MissU28 how overpaid teachers are, or how overfunded the schools are. See how that works for you.

[Predicto]

The only people who bemoan Prop 13 fall neatly into two categories:

1) shameless Sacramento politicians who are seeking more taxpayer money to waste
2) easily manipulated folk who feel that their neighbor, who is under Prop 13 rules, shouldn't get a better deal than they because they themselves aren't blessed with lower property taxes (i.e., they came late to the party).

I'm neither.

I actually benefit from Prop 13, as a personal matter. But I can still recognize that it is a damn stupid way to run a state.

[The Evil Genius]

I'm neither.

I actually benefit from Prop 13, as a personal matter. But I can still recognize that it is a damn stupid way to run a state.

The sad part of it is, is that the State will continually try to raise income, gas, and sales taxes to makeup for Prop 13. It won't be able too - but its the only viable option the State has.

[Califan007]

No one wants to pay taxes and yet everyone wants to ***** about the level of service they get from state government, from the DMV lines, to the lack of border security (although thats more federal than state), to the potholes on the freeway.

Can't have it both ways.

;)
Actually, the theory goes that if the gubmint only spent money on the absolute necessities there would be more than enough money to allow them to provide good service in those areas they do provide services...

[deejaydana]

I'm neither.

I actually benefit from Prop 13, as a personal matter. But I can still recognize that it is a damn stupid way to run a state.

Your statement implies that the state suffers as a whole from Prop 13, no? If we resolve this single item it will cure all, right?

[deejaydana]

Ca State government cannot operate with a deficit. It does need the money or services will be (and are starting to be) cut.

do you teach Econ in college by chance? State gov't by its very nature can survive in spite of itself (can you do the same?). Let me guess "our schools and children will fall off a cliff if we don't resolve our budget dilemma!"

My God man, think for yourself...

[deejaydana]

Why can you say this with "great certainty?" You have not demonstrated anything to the contrary at all. You haven't even tried. The only thing you ever demonstrate is that you can parrot conservative talking points.

Here's a basic fact - tell me what you think of it:

Despite our higher cost of living, California spends $7571 per pupil each year. New York and New Jersey spend over 13,000 per pupil.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/14/MNS4159KA4.DTL&o=2

You try to tell MissU28 how overpaid teachers are, or how overfunded the schools are. See how that works for you.

So, by your rationale more money will equal a better public schooling system? Just checking, at least MissU28 is in her 20's. What's your excuse?

[Predicto]

Your statement implies that the state suffers as a whole from Prop 13, no? If we resolve this single item it will cure all, right?

No. It will make us like every other state in the Union. We will have the same problems of mismanagement and overspending that ordinary states have to deal with, and difficult choices will still need to be made.

Right now, with prop 13, we are boxing with one hand tied behind our backs.

[Predicto]

So, by your rationale more money will equal a better public schooling system? Just checking, at least MissU28 is in her 20's. What's your excuse?

Read my post above.

[Johnny Punani]

No. It will make us like every other state in the Union. We will have the same problems of mismanagement and overspending that ordinary states have to deal with, and difficult choices will still need to be made.

Right now, with prop 13, we are boxing with one hand tied behind our backs.

We don't have that problem here in Virginia...

Have you noticed the States that have the biggest reductions in population have majority liberal governments?

[The Evil Genius]

We don't have that problem here in Virginia...

Have you noticed the States that have the biggest reductions in population have majority liberal governments?

California's population has grown and will continue to grow exponentially due to births and immigration (not even counting illegal immigration). This is in spite of 144,000 people leaving the state last year.

So what was it you were saying?

[The Evil Genius]

do you teach Econ in college by chance? State gov't by its very nature can survive in spite of itself (can you do the same?). Let me guess "our schools and children will fall off a cliff if we don't resolve our budget dilemma!"

My God man, think for yourself...

The antiquated notion of a small state government doesn't fly with the masses anymore.

We live in an entitlement era and that will never change now that the genie has been let out of the bottle.

[BigMike619]

All I know is....

80 degrees
not a cloud in the sky
women are back in summer clothing.

yeah, I love Cali-for-NIA

[Predicto]

We don't have that problem here in Virginia...

Have you noticed the States that have the biggest reductions in population have majority liberal governments?

Umm, no, not actually. California continues to grow.

The states with the biggest reductions in population are actually the old cold industrial states, for obvious reasons.

But nice try.

[deejaydana]

The antiquated notion of a small state government doesn't fly with the masses anymore.

We live in an entitlement era and that will never change now that the genie has been let out of the bottle.

For the most part you are on point but to say it will never change is something that will be borne out, painfully, over the next 25-50 years. Our gov't has been playing Three Card Monte since the 30's and you can only push off paying the piper for so long. And another thing, small state gov't actually would fly w/most people but most people are asleep at the switch and history has shown that once you start gov't programs, they are very, very, very hard to dismantle, stop or downsize in any measure. The consequence, ultimately, is a state that thinks it can have both welfare and free immigration w/o consequence. That has never happened in history and it's not going to happen here either. I laugh at people that think gov't can't go bankrupt, your pension can't possibly do the same and gov't is here to wipe your a**.

[deejaydana]

No. It will make us like every other state in the Union. We will have the same problems of mismanagement and overspending that ordinary states have to deal with, and difficult choices will still need to be made.

Right now, with prop 13, we are boxing with one hand tied behind our backs.

California is the worst state government in respect to financial management already. THE WORST. Why look to other states for bad leadership when we have the worst already? You can try to pin this on Prop 13 but that falls short if you look at that Proposition from all angles.

[81artmonk]

Why can you say this with "great certainty?" You have not demonstrated anything to the contrary at all. You haven't even tried. The only thing you ever demonstrate is that you can parrot conservative talking points.

Here's a basic fact - tell me what you think of it:

Despite our higher cost of living, California spends $7571 per pupil each year. New York and New Jersey spend over 13,000 per pupil.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/14/MNS4159KA4.DTL&o=2

You try to tell MissU28 how overpaid teachers are, or how overfunded the schools are. See how that works for you.

You misunderstand my point all the time. My wife is a teacher and they are underpaid. Off topic, but the don't just teach. They babysit. They teach. They are counselors. They are ethics and manners teachers. They teach the kids how to be socially apt, since the parents don't do their jobs.

back to topic. The state, has been irresponsible from the start. As I stated, you may have a point with prop 13 however, 13 isn't the root of the problem nor even close to being the solution.

Here are just a handful of the issues that affect Cali. Legislators who have NEVER balanced the budget and yet have increased expenditures every year.
Have on more than one occasion made really piss poor business choices, like the signing of the utilities contracts locking us in too foolish prices soaking the taxpayer.

Educating illegals. My wife has KNOWN illegals in her class (at least 10 that she knows of) others that she isn't sure about. People who are breaking our laws, getting a FREE education on the taxpayers dime.

State workers, who are collecting overtime when only working 4-5 days a week. Calling in sick on mon than working sat and considering that overtime. One prison clocked over 55,000 hours of overtime in one month.

You can not balance the budget, act with irresponsiblity and not control your spending and than when all your wrong choices get you in trouble turn around and look to the taxpayer as your savior.

#1 it's not fair or ethical
#2 it makes our reps look really stupid
#3 act like that enough and people leace the state. Which is what's happening.

How much money has the state borrowed because it hasn't balanced the budget LIKE IT SHOULD HAVE?? In theory, prop 13 was good idea. It keeps govt from running rough shod over homeowners by soaking them with as many tax hikes whenever the govt needs money. Maybe a tweak of prop 13 would be better, but to blame prop 13 isn't acurate, when govt spending and irresponsiblity with our money is the problem.

Just for you here are some facts with a PDF at the bottom showing that state revenues have increased since the prop 13 passage.

http://www.hjta.org/node/50

[Koolblue13]

California is the worst state government in respect to financial management already. THE WORST. Why look to other states for bad leadership when we have the worst already? You can try to pin this on Prop 13 but that falls short if you look at that Proposition from all angles.

New Jersey.