Omar Vizquel..HOF?

[dcoles11]

A friend of mine who I coached baseball with doesn't think he is but I do. Just looking for some more opinions.

Career Hits: 2657
Batting Average: .273
Gold Gloves: 11
All-Star Games: 3

I think the fact that he is that close to 3,000 hits, which he may or may not get, coupled with the fact that he was the best defensive SS of his time, makes him a HOF.

My friend argues that he is not a HOF because he was never considered the best short stop in baseball or in the American League, based on only having 3 All Star bids.

I contend that he was a victim of 2 things.

1. He played at a time when there were several great players at short stop, most of which will be HOF themselves, and you can't punish a player for playing the same position as other great players. Also, while Visquel may not have hit as well as those guys he was far away the best defensive Short Stop.

2. The fans voted Ripken and Jeter to be the all start starter even when they didn't have the numbers to be the starter or even be in the game. Then guys like A Rod were added as reserves over Vizquel because they had better hitting stats, more HRs, RBI's, ect.

When making your judgement, think about these stats, they are the stats of a player that was a first ballot HOF at the same position.

Hits: 2460
Batting Average: .262
Gold Gloves: 13
All Star Games: 15

[Dan T.]

That's going to be a real tough sell. Real tough. I don't think he's got a shot.

[MattFancy]

he was a very good ss, but not HoF worthy. definitely one of the best defensive ss to have ever played, but i don't think his numbers warrant enshrinment. i could be wrong though

[Patrick86L]

unfortunately it looks like he will have to get 3,000 hits to stand out enough to get votes. defense gets overlooked too much.

[Toe Jam]

he was a very good ss, but not HoF worthy. definitely one of the best defensive ss to have ever played, but i don't think his numbers warrant enshrinment. i could be wrong though

Those stats in the OP are sort of convincing..

[dcoles11]

Incase you guys are wondering, those stats at the end of my post are the stats of Ozzie Smith.

For all intensive purposes, Omar Vizquel had a better career than Ozzie Smith.

[MattFancy]

Incase you guys are wondering, those stats at the end of my post are the stats of Ozzie Smith.

For all intensive purposes, Omar Vizquel had a better career than Ozzie Smith.

i think one of the things that voters look at is all-star games. and 15 to 3 is a little lopsided. yeah vizquel played when ripken, jeter, a-rod, nomar in his prime, were all playing but still. the other thing that helped ozzie im sure is that he has a ring. i dont think vizquel has one. its all about what the media thinks of you and vizquel seemed to be under the radar for the better part of his career.

[Midnight Judges]

If fielding your position mattered anymore he might recieve consideration.

[dcoles11]

If fielding your position mattered anymore he might recieve consideration.

Do you think with the whole steroid era backlash that voters might vote more infavor of guys like Vizquel?

[rincewind]

If Mattingly can't get into the Hall for his fielding, neither should Vizquel. :mad:

[dcoles11]

If Mattingly can't get into the Hall for his fielding, neither should Vizquel. :mad:

I wouldn't compare Mattingly to Vizquel because Mattingly played a position that demands offensive production.

Mattingly only had 2,153 career hits. I think he needed at least 2,500.

He wasn't a power guy, only hitting 222 home runs.

I just don't think you can put a gap to gap, non power hitting, 1st baseman in the HOF unless he has 3,000 hits.

[rincewind]

I wouldn't compare Mattingly to Vizquel because Mattingly played a position that demands offensive production.

Mattingly only had 2,153 career hits. I think he needed at least 2,500.

He wasn't a power guy, only hitting 222 home runs.

I just don't think you can put a gap to gap, non power hitting, 1st baseman in the HOF unless he has 3,000 hits.



Mattingly's numbers compare greatly against Puckett's - a first ballot HOFer (plus Mattingly was never accused of beating his wife). Add to that the fact that Mattingly has THE HIGHEST FIELDING PERCENTAGE EVER, and I think he should have been able to make it on his second or third ballot. But, I will admit to being biased. :)

[dcoles11]

Mattingly's numbers compare greatly against Puckett's - a first ballot HOFer (plus Mattingly was never accused of beating his wife). Add to that the fact that Mattingly has THE HIGHEST FIELDING PERCENTAGE EVER, and I think he should have been able to make it on his second or third ballot. But, I will admit to being biased. :)

Kirby Puckett has a few things over Mattingly.

2 World Series rings
More hits in a shorter career
a 10 point higher career batting average.
More All Star Games
6 Silver Slugger Awards

About the only thing Mattingly has over Puckett is an MVP award.

Mattingly needed to do a little more hitting wise in my opinion, especially since he was a 1st baseman.

To put it into perspective. Mattingly only has slightly better career hitting stats than those of Wally Joyner.

[rincewind]

Kirby Puckett has a few things over Mattingly.

2 World Series rings
More hits in a shorter career
a 10 point higher career batting average.
More All Star Games
6 Silver Slugger Awards

About the only thing Mattingly has over Puckett is an MVP award.

Mattingly needed to do a little more hitting wise in my opinion, especially since he was a 1st baseman.



Mattlingly played all of two more games than Puckett and had less at bats (though Puckett did have the higher average). I think your own argument for Vizquel shows the overall importance of All-Star games. And, again, I didn't say Mattingly should have been a shoe-in, but I think he deserves MUCH more consideration than he gets. Personally, I think he should have made it in on his 3rd attempt.


Edit - hitting isn't everything. If you state Joyner, you also need to compare fielding. Like I said before - Mattingly has the highest fielding percentage ever... for ANY position. That should weigh very heavily, IMO.


Edit 2 - Mattingly's BA is almost 20 points higher than Joyners.

[dcoles11]

Mattlingly played all of two more games than Puckett and had less at bats (though Puckett did have the higher average). I think your own argument for Vizquel shows the overall importance of All-Star games. And, again, I didn't say Mattingly should have been a shoe-in, but I think he deserves MUCH more consideration than he gets. Personally, I think he should have made it in on his 3rd attempt.


Edit - hitting isn't everything. If you state Joyner, you also need to compare fielding. Like I said before - Mattingly has the highest fielding percentage ever... for ANY position. That should weigh very heavily, IMO.


Edit 2 - Mattingly's BA is almost 20 points higher than Joyners.

I just think all of his fielding accomplishments are kind of taken with a grain of salt because he was a 1st baseman. 1st base is considered the easiest position to play on the field, not saying it is "easy" but of the 9 it's the easiest when compared.

A lot of players switch to 1st base later in their careers or when they just can't get it done at 3rd base, catcher, or in the outfield anymore.

I think 1st base has always been considered a position that should yield big offensive numbers and Mattingly just doesn't have that.

[dcoles11]

Another thought on Mattingly. I think putting Mattingly in the HOF based on his fielding accomplishments and good but not HOF quality hitting stats would like be putting a pitcher in the HOF who won a bunch of gold gloves but was just a good pitcher.

A pitcher's job isn't to win gold gloves, it's to win games.

Most see a first baseman as a person who's job is to drive in and produce runs.

He was a good player, great defensive player, but he doesn't have 1st baseman HOF hitting numbers.

[rincewind]

Left field is the easiest - hence Manny Ramirez played so long in the AL.





Like I said, I have a strong bias in this case - Mattingly is my favorite athlete of all time. I have a bet with my brother and his best friend on who will make the Hall first. I have Mattingly, my brother has Pete Rose, and his friend has Dale Murphy. I have a sneaking feeling that bet will never be paid off. :laugh:

[BigMike619]

I dont think he gets in right away but he will eventually. I dont think it would be right for him to wait 15 years but I dont see him as a first ballot.

[dcoles11]

Left field is the easiest - hence Manny Ramirez played so long in the AL.





Like I said, I have a strong bias in this case - Mattingly is my favorite athlete of all time. I have a bet with my brother and his best friend on who will make the Hall first. I have Mattingly, my brother has Pete Rose, and his friend has Dale Murphy. I have a sneaking feeling that bet will never be paid off. :laugh:

Left field and 1st base are close but i'd still argue that left field is the harder position to play. Based on the fact that you don't see players moving from 1st base to left field. If you can hit but can't play your position you get moved to 1st base, hense it has to be the easiest position to play on the field.

As far as you bet goes. I don't think Dale Murphy will ever get in, nor do I think he should, and i'm a Braves fan.

Mattingly could get in one day, which is more than I can say for Murphy.

The Pete Rose thing I don't even wanna touch because it has nothing to do with his numbers, it's just a politics thing.

[PeterMP]

Left field and 1st base are close but i'd still argue that left field is the harder position to play. Based on the fact that you don't see players moving from 1st base to left field.

Do you know anybody that ever moved the other way? From LF to 1st.

[G.A.C.O.L.B.]

It's a shame All Star appearances matter. Considering the fact that every team MUST have at least one rep. which means the better, more deserving players are passed over to meet that quota.

I was a baseball junkie the first 15 years of my existence. I hardly follow it now (aka not at all) so I may be a little off my game. But I think Omar has a shot. Post Bill Mazeroski's numbers. He just recently got in based largely on his fielding and his hitting numbers are worse than Omar's.

[The Evil Genius]

IMO, Vizquel is HOF bound in his 2nd year of eligibility. Had he retired 2 years ago, he might have been a first ballot selection.

[The Evil Genius]

The thing that still pisses me off about the Baseball HOF is the voters who refuse to elect players eligible in their first year.

Do 27 writers/voters truly think Ricky Henderson isn't a HOFer? Did 23 voters really think Willie Mays wasn't a HOFer?

[JOSH8572]

i look at it like this.

if you need to think about it the ansewer is no. it is not the hall of very good players it is the hall of fame. omar was a great player but not a hall of famer. ripkin, henderson, maddux. you dont need to think about it.

[SkinsOrlando]

Vizquel is a victim of the "Ripken" syndrome. Cal changed the dynamic for how SS are viewed. He made it an offensive position as well. Vizquel only gets in if there are some "light" years in voting in the future.