Wash. Post Opinion: When Gitmo Was (Relatively) Good

[ACW]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/23/AR2009012302313.html?hpid=opinionsbox1
Military tried to act humanely; that ******* Rumsfeld didn't.
:nutkick: Rumsfeld.
:applause: Gen. Lehnert

[twa]

Lehnert would sit on the ground outside the wire-mesh cells, hat in hand, and make promises to prisoners in exchange for their agreement to eat. According to these detainees, he promised to remove a guard who they said had kicked a copy of the Koran and to find a way to reduce the chafing of the ankle shackles they wore during transport.

[Thiebear]

And Again: The Military won the war and the military ran the camp correctly?
the civilians wanting to run the military as was Vietnam didn't do as well.
Rumsfeld was truely in office too long.

[PeterMP]

I said it in the torture thread, but will repeat it, if you ignore the people that were running things when Rumsfeld was Sec. Def., nobody whose job it was/is to consider the big picture has looked at the torture/cruel punishment issue for intelligence and decided it was a good idea for us so it doesn't surprise me at all that the camp was NOT set up to be run that way until Rumsfeld and his minions took control of it.

[Larry]

Still remembering, back when the whole torture debate started, somebody posted a link to an article (in the New Yorker, I think) with the former head of the NYPD counter-terror division.

And this guy, (who, among other things, was the interrogator who successfully got the people who had bombed a US Embassy to confess, in court, to their crime), claimed that in his experience, the best way to get factual, important, information, from a terrorist, quickly, was to . . .

Get him a court-appointed lawyer, let him spend a half hour with the lawyer, and let the lawyer explain to the terrorist the concept of "plea bargain".

He said that the terrorists expect to be tortured. They think Americans are monsters. (That's why they're terrorists.) That when they find out otherwise, then they will actively cooperate. That when the terrorist is cooperating, instead of him valiantly fighting to say nothing, or lie, or tell you things that aren't important, instead the terrorist will actively search his own memory, trying to find the most important thing he knows, to bargain with.

[ACW]

Still remembering, back when the whole torture debate started, somebody posted a link to an article (in the New Yorker, I think) with the former head of the NYPD counter-terror division.

And this guy, (who, among other things, was the interrogator who successfully got the people who had bombed a US Embassy to confess, in court, to their crime), claimed that in his experience, the best way to get factual, important, information, from a terrorist, quickly, was to . . .

Get him a court-appointed lawyer, let him spend a half hour with the lawyer, and let the lawyer explain to the terrorist the concept of "plea bargain".

He said that the terrorists expect to be tortured. They think Americans are monsters. (That's why they're terrorists.) That when they find out otherwise, then they will actively cooperate. That when the terrorist is cooperating, instead of him valiantly fighting to say nothing, or lie, or tell you things that aren't important, instead the terrorist will actively search his own memory, trying to find the most important thing he knows, to bargain with.Interesting; could've gotten the intel Rumsfeld wanted w/o the methods used.

[twa]

So terrorist are terrorists because they think we are monsters?

You really believe that?

[ACW]

So terrorist are terrorists because they think we are monsters?

You really believe that?Some do, partially; it certainly doesn't help things.

[Larry]

So terrorist are terrorists because they think we are monsters?

You really believe that?

I think that it's a lot easier to motivate someone to do immoral things if they think they're defending something. (That's one reason why there are so many Tailgate posters who's primary motivation is to continually assert that "the other side" are all subhuman monsters which "their side" is defending the World against.)

So yeah, I suspect (based, I'll admit, on nothing other than my observation of lots of people who aren't terrorists. (quite. :) )) that most terrorists honestly believe that they are acting to defend (something. Their country/tribe/religion/morality) against the never-ending assault of The Mighty, Evil, America.

[twa]

But they don't consider us evil because of cruelty,that is the norm for most and reasonably acceptable or tolerated...just look at their leaders

What makes us monsters or in need of killing/subjugation?

[Larry]

Like I said, I'm doing a lot of assuming, here.

But my bet is that the vast majority believe that they're defending something that they claim we're attacking.


People get a lot angrier, if they think they've been attacked. They can even be heroic, if they're defending the helpless from the immensely powerful.

[twa]

I think you are close to it there.
Unfortunately I believe the attack they are defending against is not a military one....which makes reassuring them difficult to say the least.;)

[zoony]

Rumsfeld, a.k.a. Snowball. It was him!!!! He did it!!!

[Mad Mike]

He said that the terrorists expect to be tortured. They think Americans are monsters. (That's why they're terrorists.) That when they find out otherwise, then they will actively cooperate.

Yeah, the people who use REAL torture and lob off the heads of americans, think WE are monsters who torture people.

That's so stupid it would be funny if it were not part of a serious conversation.

[Prosperity]

Yeah, the people who use REAL torture and lob off the heads of americans, think WE are monsters who torture people.

That's so stupid it would be funny if it were not part of a serious conversation.

I don't think that is stupid, I think it makes sense. Evil people don't often see themselves as evil.

[Burgold]

Yup, lots of people think that only other people's **** stinks. Unfortunately, that helps to make them even more evil.

[Midnight Judges]

Had the United States been willing to trust in the professionalism of its superb military, it could have avoided one of the most shameful passages in its history.

This seems to be a recurring theme for the Bush administration. Not just in the military under Rumsfeld but also the Department of Justice under Gonzales, and pretty much anything related to science/the environment.